Paladin damage

[nickl_2000]

This came from the dice thread. They said a paladin could do 30d8 damage. How is that possible, what all needs to come together for that?

[Xihirli]

Not sure, but a full crit on a 4th Level smite against a fiend or undead can do 16d8 including weapon damage dice and improved divine smite, and if you Banishing Smite first there’s another 10d10 on that crit.

[Dork_Forge]

Maybe they meant across a turn? There's no way for a Paladin to do that in one hit, you can hit 8d8 if you smite against a Fiend or Undead with a 5th level slot and improved smite. You could throw a smite spell on there for more damage but that isn't even necessarily d8s.

[LudicSavant]

There's no way for a Paladin to do that in one hit

Here is but one of the ways that it is possible for a Paladin to do 30d8 damage in a single hit.

Longsword: 1d8 damage.

Booming Blade: 3d8 damage (4d8 rider, but I won't be including that as it's a separate hit). Usually used for opportunity attacks on builds with War Caster. SCAG variant half-elves don't even need to multiclass for it, and are a common Paladin race.

Divine Smite: 6d8 damage if it's a fiend or undead.

Improved Divine Smite: 1d8 damage.

Blinding Smite: 3d8 damage.

Sun Blade: 1d8 damage if it's an undead.

Critical Hit: Double all d8s. 1d8+3d8+6d8+1d8+3d8+1d8 = 15d8, doubled is 30d8.

[Dork_Forge]

Here is but one of the ways that it is possible for a Paladin to do 30d8 damage in a single hit.

Longsword: 1d8 damage.

Booming Blade: 3d8 damage (4d8 rider, but I won't be including that as it's a separate hit). Usually used for opportunity attacks on builds with War Caster. SCAG variant half-elves don't even need to multiclass for it, and are a common Paladin race.

Divine Smite: 6d8 damage if it's a fiend or undead.

Improved Divine Smite: 1d8 damage.

Blinding Smite: 3d8 damage.

Sun Blade: 1d8 damage if it's an undead.

Critical Hit: Double all d8s. 1d8+3d8+6d8+1d8+3d8+1d8 = 15d8, doubled is 30d8.

Relying on a Rare magic item and using a melee cantrip that a high level Paladin would have no reason to use for anything but an AoO and on top of that relying on a crit. Drop the Sun Blade and you instantly drop 2d8 in a scenario that is incredibly unlikely to happen in a fighting style a high level Paladin has little to no reason to adopt.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Relying on a Rare magic item and using a melee cantrip that a high level Paladin would have no reason to use for anything but an AoO and on top of that relying on a crit. Drop the Sun Blade and you instantly drop 2d8 in a scenario that is incredibly unlikely to happen in a fighting style a high level Paladin has little to no reason to adopt.

The question was how to do it, not whether doing it was reasonable. Adding to that, it's a lot more likely to happen than you think, many Paladins make a job of crit fishing for the biggest nova damage they can muster.

Alternatively, play a Sorcadin and guarantee your own crit with Hold Monster.

[Dork_Forge]

The question was how to do it, not whether doing it was reasonable. Adding to that, it's a lot more likely to happen than you think, many Paladins make a job of crit fishing for the biggest nova damage they can muster.

Alternatively, play a Sorcadin and guarantee your own crit with Hold Monster.

Hold Monster doesn't work on undead and anything else is already dropping d8s. As for crit fishing, yeah Paladin's can make a habit out of it, but this relies on the next attack after casting Blinding Smite being a crit, with no feature to reduce it from needing a 20. I guess yeah it's possible but relies on a tremendous amount of luck coming together at a particular time whilst said Paladin attacks with a magic item they may not have using an attack they've no reason to use.

[stoutstien]

Hmm is the 3 lv assassin dip / 2 fighter still a thing with paladin? Very DM dependent but if I remember the math on a Nova was intense.

[Kane0]

Longsword: 1d8 damage.
Booming Blade: 3d8 damage (4d8 rider, but I won't be including that as it's a separate hit)
Divine Smite: 6d8 damage if it's a fiend or undead.
Improved Divine Smite: 1d8 damage.
Blinding Smite: 3d8 damage.
Sun Blade: 1d8 damage if it's an undead.
Critical Hit: Double all d8s.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DetailedArcticAfricanpiedkingfisher-size_restricted.gif

What else can we pile on though? Allies or a ring of spell storing with access to Shadow blade, Holy Weapon, etc?

[Frozenstep]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DetailedArcticAfricanpiedkingfisher-size_restricted.gif

What else can we pile on though? Allies or a ring of spell storing with access to Shadow blade, Holy Weapon, etc?

If we add allies, include a grave domain cleric using their channel divinity to apply vulnerability.

[area52]

Holy weapon cast as a bonus action +2d8

[Makorel]

Wait Improved Divine Smite stacks with Divine Smite?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Wait Improved Divine Smite stacks with Divine Smite?

Why wouldn't it? The extra damage from Divine Smite is capped but Improved Divine Smite, although it has a similar name, is an entirely different feature.

[Xihirli]

What else can we pile on though? Allies or a ring of spell storing with access to Shadow blade, Holy Weapon, etc?

Nope, can't stack anything concentration with most smite spells, including Blinding. I suppose you could grab some Ranger levels for Colossus Slayer.

[Kane0]

Nope, can't stack anything concentration with most smite spells, including Blinding. I suppose you could grab some Ranger levels for Colossus Slayer.

Holy Weapon could be cast on your longsword by another paladin or a bard that poached it however, so thats an extra 2d8. Wouldn't work with Shadow Blade though since it disappears when you pass it to someone else.

Oh yeah Colossus Slayer is an extra 1d8 too, so that 18d8 or 36d8 with a crit.

[LudicSavant]

Relying on a Rare magic item and using a melee cantrip that a high level Paladin would have no reason to use for anything but an AoO and on top of that relying on a crit. Drop the Sun Blade and you instantly drop 2d8 in a scenario that is incredibly unlikely to happen in a fighting style a high level Paladin has little to no reason to adopt.

It's not cool to move the goalposts like that.

Your position was "there's no way for a Paladin to do it." I showed you one of the possible ways for a Paladin to do it, therefore falsifying your statement.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DetailedArcticAfricanpiedkingfisher-size_restricted.gif

What else can we pile on though? Allies or a ring of spell storing with access to Shadow blade, Holy Weapon, etc?

Well if multiclassing is allowed, you could be a Sorlockadin and get yourself Eldritch Smite. Or potentially upcast Shadow Blade higher than Blinding Smite would go. Or have an ally cast Holy Weapon on you, since it actually stacks with magic weapons. Or you can get some more d8s out of Ranger or Fighter dips (like Battle Master superiority dice). Lotsa stuff.

Mind this is all kinda pointlessly theoretical since in a real game you wouldn't care about how many of your dice are d8s, just how much damage you'd do total. :smallbiggrin:

[Dork_Forge]

It's not cool to move the goalposts like that.

Your position was "there's no way for a Paladin to do it." I showed you one of the possible ways for a Paladin to do it, therefore falsifying your statement.

Okay, under very specific conditions with the help of a magic item it's possible. If there's a way to grab that extra d8 within just the Paladin class itself then I'm impressed it can get that high in a single blow. My mistake was confusing theory crafting with something you could choose to do/likely to actually come up ala a nova set up.

[LudicSavant]

Okay, under very specific conditions with the help of a magic item it's possible. If there's a way to grab that extra d8 within just the Paladin class itself then I'm impressed it can get that high in a single blow.

You could take the Orcish Fury feat for another d8, I guess.

[Arkhios]

Wait Improved Divine Smite stacks with Divine Smite?

Yes. It does.

It says in the description: Whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon, the creature takes an extra 1d8 radiant damage.

It's simply what it is. An extra 1d8 means you add one more 1d8 to however many dice you had before that.


Here's another rather wonky way to deal 15d8 with a single attack (and thus, 30d8 with a critical)

Paladin 11/Sorcerer 9 with the Shadow Blade and Booming Blade.

Shadow Blade (cast from a 7th level slot; Conc. required): 5d8 (psychic) damage
Divine Smite (expending a 4th level slot): 6d8 (radiant) damage if fiend or undead
Improved Divine Smite: 1d8 (radiant) damage
Booming Blade: 3d8 (thunder) damage

5d8+6d8+1d8+3d8 = 15d8. Doubled to 30d8.

Do note that this doesn't even rely on obtaining some rare magic items. Relying on a Critical Hit is still on the table though. All you need to spend is one 7th level spell slot and one 4th level spell slot).
For extra fun, all three damage types you're dealing with are among the least resisted damage types so chances are all your damage goes through any resistances or immunities the target might have.

[Teaguethebean]

Okay, under very specific conditions with the help of a magic item it's possible. If there's a way to grab that extra d8 within just the Paladin class itself then I'm impressed it can get that high in a single blow. My mistake was confusing theory crafting with something you could choose to do/likely to actually come up ala a nova set up.

I made a character who is assassin 3 fighter 2 paladin 15 with getting the jump on an enemy I could do 467 and if I roll max I could do 867 dmg.

Edit: Just realized against a friend or undead I could get it up to 521 average and 963 max

[Dork_Forge]

I made a character who is assassin 3 fighter 2 paladin 15 with getting the jump on an enemy I could do 467 and if I roll max I could do 867 dmg.

Edit: Just realized against a friend or undead I could get it up to 521 average and 963 max

That's very impressive, but just so you know this was about the amount of d8s (not actual damage numbers) and single classed Paladins. I'm very aware that mulitclassed characters can nova for very high numbers.

[Phoenix042]

Technically unrelated, but I think this might be a good chance for me to bring up the One Shot, One Kill eldritch sniper we came up with a couple years ago in an attempt to find the maximum damage possible on a single attack (just the attack, not riders like poison and the like).

The build was assassin 11 / hexblade 9, and the attack went like this:
Spot foe before he spots you. You now have surprise. Cast banishing smite, then fire great crossbow at target. After hitting, use eldritch smite with a 5th level slot.

You deal: 2d10 (crossbow) + 10d10 (banishing smite) + 12d8 (eldritch smite) + 12d6 (sneak attack) + 4d6 (bugbear surprise attack) + 2d6 (martial adept feat) + 5 (charisma) + 1 (improved pact weapon) + 10 (sharpshooter) damage, for a total average damage of 199


That's average, and that's a single attack. No magic weapons, no buffs or help from party members. If I recall correctly, with assumed magic items, poison, and party support we could do just over 300 damage if they also fail a high DC saving throw after the attack.

The build was quite nice too. I actually liked the character concept (a bugbear gunslinger, with a dark curse and a thirst for justice), and the build worked very smoothly at all levels of play, able to do some version of his big "one shot, one kill" trick at literally every level, and it just continually progressed in power as he did.

I want to play this guy sometime.

[Laserlight]

Edit: Just realized against a friend or undead I could get it up to 521 average and 963 max

If you do that against a friend, they probably won't be your friend any more.

[Nagog]

Perhaps they were mistaken and thought they could use a 9th level spell slot for it, which would amount to 10d8, 11d8 with Improved Smite, and 12d8 against a Fiend. Crit that and you're at 24d8, idk where the other 3 (crit to 6) is coming from though.

[jdolch]

As a side note: Single Attack, Single Target isn't really important for actual gameplay. And are we now tallking about a Paladin or Multiclass?

Because if we're talking multiclass single Action Damage, the run of the mill (Paladin 6/ Divine Soul Sorcerer 14) can cast Spirit Guardians from a 9th Level slot on himself [either using Quicken to make it a Bonus Action or Distant Metamagic to double the Radius]. That's 9d8 Radiant Damage in a 15ft[30ft] Radius to any Creature that can't make the DC19 wisdom saving throw (anybody who can takes half) everytime it either enters or starts in the AoE.
I leave it to your imagination how much damage that is EACH Round and THEN you can start smiting and what not on top of it.

(That's probably not nearly the best you can do, it's just for starters. And keep in mind: This is a NOT a dedicated glass canon build I whipped up for this. This is the standard Sorcadin Build that actually wants to be in the thick of it and can take it without losing concentration)

[area52]

Yes. It does.

It says in the description: Whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon, the creature takes an extra 1d8 radiant damage.

It's simply what it is. An extra 1d8 means you add one more 1d8 to however many dice you had before that.


Here's another rather wonky way to deal 15d8 with a single attack (and thus, 30d8 with a critical)

Paladin 11/Sorcerer 9 with the Shadow Blade and Booming Blade.

Shadow Blade (cast from a 7th level slot; Conc. required): 5d8 (psychic) damage
Divine Smite (expending a 4th level slot): 6d8 (radiant) damage if fiend or undead
Improved Divine Smite: 1d8 (radiant) damage
Booming Blade: 3d8 (thunder) damage

5d8+6d8+1d8+3d8 = 15d8. Doubled to 30d8.

Do note that this doesn't even rely on obtaining some rare magic items. Relying on a Critical Hit is still on the table though. All you need to spend is one 7th level spell slot and one 4th level spell slot).
For extra fun, all three damage types you're dealing with are among the least resisted damage types so chances are all your damage goes through any resistances or immunities the target might have.

How do you get a 7th level spell slot out of 11/9 character?

[jdolch]

How do you get a 7th level spell slot out of 11/9 character?

Paladins are Half Casters, so: 11/2 =~5 and 5+9=14 Caster Levels on the Multiclass Table.

[Arkhios]

How do you get a 7th level spell slot out of 11/9 character?


Paladins are Half Casters, so: 11/2 =~5 and 5+9=14 Caster Levels on the Multiclass Table.

As jdolch explained above.

Known spell levels and spell slot level are separate things. For single classed spellcasters they walk hand in hand, but when you multiclass, you start keeping track of them separately; different classes with the Spellcasting* feature stack their levels together (for example, a Sorcerer counts all their levels, but a Paladin counts only half of them (rounded down), as it's explained under the multiclassing optional rule) in regards to the highest available spell slots.
Your access to and/or known spell levels (the spells you have access to) still depend on the individual class levels.

*Time and again, people confuse Pact Magic and Spellcasting features as if they were the same thing, but they're not. Even though they are used to manage similar things. In other words, Pact Magic doesn't stack with Spellcasting in regards to highest available spell levels.

[jdolch]

Because if we're talking multiclass single Action Damage, the run of the mill (Paladin 6/ Divine Soul Sorcerer 14) can cast Spirit Guardians from a 9th Level slot on himself [either using Quicken to make it a Bonus Action or Distant Metamagic to double the Radius]. That's 9d8 Radiant Damage in a 15ft[30ft] Radius to any Creature that can't make the DC19 wisdom saving throw (anybody who can takes half) everytime it either enters or starts in the AoE.
I leave it to your imagination how much damage that is EACH Round and THEN you can start smiting and what not on top of it.


Forgot to mention that, depending on your interpretation you can duplicate Spirit Guardians onto your Steed while mounted. So 18d8 per Target in a 15 (30)ft Radius.

[Arkhios]

Forgot to mention that, depending on your interpretation you can duplicate Spirit Guardians onto your Steed while mounted. So 18d8 per Target in a 15 (30)ft Radius.

Debatable, but I can see how that could work. Also debatable is whether it's stronger or weaker due to two separate saving throws for two occasions of 9d8 damage instead of one saving throw for 18d8. Resistances apply twice (once for each occasion), not just once (for all damage). :smallsmile:

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Debatable, but I can see how that could work. Also debatable is whether it's stronger or weaker due to two separate saving throws for two occasions of 9d8 damage instead of one saving throw for 18d8. Resistances apply twice (once for each occasion), not just once (for all damage). :smallsmile:

Resistances applying twice is a potential 2 less damage instead of 1(you round down 2 times)

Saving twice is better as you added the option of saving ones and failing ones.

[Arkhios]

Resistances applying twice is a potential 2 less damage instead of 1(you round down 2 times)

Saving twice is better as you added the option of saving ones and failing ones.

True. I suppose I could've explained my point further. It's debatable whether one casting of Spirit Guardians, duplicated on a steed, applies the rider twice, because it comes from two points of origin instead of just one. Affected creatures' speed is halved within the area. Does it halve your speed twice or just once. That's why it could be seen as stronger than just one damage roll.

EDIT:

The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap, or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap.

For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell's benefit only once; he or she doesn't get to roll two bonus dice.
..so, halving an affected target's speed would apply only once, and technically so would the damage roll.

[sithlordnergal]

This came from the dice thread. They said a paladin could do 30d8 damage. How is that possible, what all needs to come together for that?

That was me, here's how I did:

1) You need to be a Paladin/Sorcerer, this is mainly for Smites, a few spells, and Bonus Action Booming or Green Flame Blade.

2) You need to paralyze the target somehow. This makes it so all melee attacks are crits if you hit. This can be done with Hold Person, Hold Monster, or using the Rod of Lordly Might like I do

3) You need to have Haste cast on you

Make sure your target is paralized, this will cause every hit to be a crit. Then take the attack action, Bonus Action Booming Blade, and Haste Attack. Provided you are using a d8 weapon, and use Max Smites, on a non-Fiend at Tier 3, you will do:

8d8 weapon damage + 4d8 Booming Blade + 40d8 Smite damage for a grand total of 52d8

At level 20, which is my Paladin's level, against an undead or fiend you can do up to:

8d8 weapon + 6d8 BB + 48 Smite for 62d8.

Again, you need to have the target paralyzed, you need to be Hasted, and you need Quicken Booming/Green Flame Blade.



EDIT: I forgot, you double the smite damage due to the crits. I was originally calculating only 5d8 and 6d8 per hit from the smites. It should have been 10d8 and 12d8 respectivly

[jdolch]

Debatable, but I can see how that could work. Also debatable is whether it's stronger or weaker due to two separate saving throws for two occasions of 9d8 damage instead of one saving throw for 18d8. Resistances apply twice (once for each occasion), not just once (for all damage). :smallsmile:

1. I mean most DMs will probably Veto that because Spirit Guardians is already broken with Paladins.
2. How exactly can I choose between them having 1 or 2 saving throws?

[Arkhios]

1. I mean most DMs will probably Veto that because Spirit Guardians is already broken with Paladins.
2. How exactly can I choose between them having 1 or 2 saving throws?

1. Very likely, yes. Personally, I'd aim for a compromise. I can see how it's kinda cool to do so, but it would be really broken, considering you're basically using one 9th level spell slot to cast a spell twice at no additional cost. So, I would rule that the targets have to save twice, but targets would take damage only once from one occasion of 9d8 (and be affected by the rider only once). This is actually supported by the Spellcasting rule about Combining Magical Effects


The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap, or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap.

For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spell's benefit only once; he or she doesn't get to roll two bonus dice.

2. A 9th level spirit guardians deals 9d8 damage per source. If you have multiple sources (which you do, when duplicating Spirit Guardians on your steed), the targets in the same area have to roll a saving throw 2 times, once for each occasion of 9d8. Not once for one occasion of 18d8.

[sithlordnergal]

1. I mean most DMs will probably Veto that because Spirit Guardians is already broken with Paladins.
2. How exactly can I choose between them having 1 or 2 saving throws?

I mean...not much a DM can do unless they prevent a player from multiclassing into Cleric or Divine Soul Sorcerer. Plus you can get up to 62d8 if you can paralyze a target.

[jdolch]

Affected creatures' speed is halved within the area. Does it halve your speed twice or just once.

I didn't even think about that. My gut says it's only halved once. But I can't give you a reason why that would be so, because, yes, there would be twice as many spirits flying around.


2. A 9th level spirit guardians deals 9d8 damage per source. If you have multiple sources (which you do, when duplicating Spirit Guardians on your steed), the targets in the same area have to roll a saving throw 2 times, once for each occasion of 9d8. Not once for one occasion of 18d8.

Yes of course, you have, for all intents and purposes, 2 characters with Spirit Guardians and overlapping fields of effect.

It should be mentioned that you want to have the Mounted Combatant Feat for this or they just cut your horse out from under you. Normally you wouldn't stay in Range with a Horse to avoid exactly that but with SG you have to.

[Arkhios]

It should be mentioned that you want to have the Mounted Combatant Feat for this or they just cut your horse out from under you. Normally you wouldn't stay in Range with a Horse to avoid exactly that but with SG you have to.

Actually, that's not necessary. You designate any number of targets to be affected by Spirit Guardians. If you choose to leave your mount out of them, then your mount is safe.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Actually, that's not necessary. You designate any number of targets to be affected by Spirit Guardians. If you choose to leave your mount out of them, then your mount is safe.

You are wrong.
It is better.


When you cast this spell, you can designate any number of creatures you can see to be unaffected by it. An affected creature's speed is halved in the area, and when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d8 radiant damage (if you are good or neutral) or 3d8 necrotic damage (if you are evil). On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage.

[Arkhios]

You are wrong.
It is better.

I'd argue it's same difference. Whether you designate any number of targets to be affected or unaffected is equally vague number.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I'd argue it's same difference. Whether you designate any number of targets to be affected or unaffected is equally vague number.

To choose unaffected mean you will still damage enemies and allies you can't see when casting.

To choose affected mean you will never damage enemies and allies you can't see when casting.

[jdolch]

Actually, that's not necessary. You designate any number of targets to be affected by Spirit Guardians. If you choose to leave your mount out of them, then your mount is safe.

I am not talking about your Mount taking damage from SG. Of course you don't do that. I am talking about the enemy killing your Horse to get rid of one SG effect.

Any way this is absolutely insane considering that Spirit Guardians is already good, but balanced on a Cleric. On a Sorcerer it's already broken because of Distant Spell MM but at least it's still defensive because you don't want your squishy Sorcerer in melee range.

With a Sorcadin though? It's completely insane:
1. now you have a bona-fide Tank (AC+AoP+Shield+Mirror Image, etc.),
2. who WANTS to be in melee Range,
3. who has no problem staying in Melee Range since everybody else is slowed down and he himself has 60 ft movement Range even if the Horse has to take the Disengage action.
4. who only has to take one (Bonus-)Action in the first round to get the Spell going then it is completely free.
5. Who then can use his Actions in subsequent rounds for going Nova on a single Target WHILE still doing insane AoE damage. and
6. who may or may not have abilites to completely lock down the enemy inside the SG effect Radius. (e.g. Aura of Conquest)

Basically it is the perfect "Aggro" Mechanic, because the only way they can survive is by either fleeing, which is hella difficult or taking you down. Either way, If they try to take down your Party they are dead.

[Marcloure]

Wait a minute, two auras of the same effect doesn't stack. It's in the rules.


Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap

[Arkhios]

To choose unaffected mean you will still damage enemies and allies you can't see when casting.

To choose affected mean you will never damage enemies and allies you can't see when casting.

Huh, you're right. My bad. It's indeed better to choose the targets that are not affected. I didn't take into account that earlier.


I am not talking about your Mount taking damage from SG. Of course you don't do that. I am talking about the enemy killing your Horse to get rid of one SG effect.

Oh, right. Again, my bad. (I don't like using a mount in combat that much, so I didn't take that into account).

One more thing your mount could be doing on its turns: Use its Action to Dodge. Every. Damn. Round. Combined with Mounted Combatant, your mount is ridiculously difficult to hit. :smallbiggrin:

[jdolch]

Wait a minute, two auras of the same effect doesn't stack. It's in the rules.

Actually that is an interesting question.

[Marcloure]

It's not an Aura. It's a sustained AoE spell centered on "self".

How not? If a creature is within two Incendiary Clouds at the start of its turn, it only suffers the effects of one of them. The same happens for Spirit Guardians, if a creature is within two areas, it only takes the damage from one of them.

[Arkhios]

How not? If a creature is within two Incendiary Clouds at the start of its turn, it only suffers the effects of one of them. The same happens for Spirit Guardians, if a creature is within two areas, it only takes the damage from one of them.

Exactly. But having those two occasions of Spirit Guardians is still going to be a pain in the ass, even if you take damage only once. Your speed is still halved while sitting in there, and even if you took the mount down, you'd still have to worry about the one who cast the spell and their duplicate of the spell. :smallbiggrin:

[lperkins2]

Actually that is an interesting question.

The rules on combining magical effects are pretty clear. Multiple copies of the same effect name do not stack. For the duration, only the most potent effect applies. The only real ambiguity is what is meant by 'most potent'. You could make a pretty good case for having to save twice, since the spell you save against is less potent than the save you fail, which is basically the same as rolling the save at disadvantage (except things like Lucky won't help as much). But that's going to be DM dependent.

[jdolch]

How not? If a creature is within two Incendiary Clouds at the start of its turn, it only suffers the effects of one of them. The same happens for Spirit Guardians, if a creature is within two areas, it only takes the damage from one of them.

I don't think it's an Aura. An Aura is a permanent feature. This is a sustained Spell.
Anyway: I've read through some discussions and the TL:DR is that the DM has to judge that. Some say that it doesn't stack because it's the same Spell effect applied twice and some say that it's two different spells from two different sources. Like when 2 Warlocks EB someone. The second EB still does it's normal damage (even the EB rays themselves stack for that matter).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Wait a minute, two auras of the same effect doesn't stack. It's in the rules.
We were discussing about what should stack and what not.
We made the discussion under the assumption that it will stack the damage and allowed to be shared by find steed.

Huh, you're right. My bad. It's indeed better to choose the targets that are not affected. I didn't take into account that earlier.

I like you, you are nice in the internet :)

[jdolch]

Bottom Line IMO is It's up to the DM and I would totally understand if he rules that the Damage doesn't stack. I think the suggestion that you have to make 2 Saving Throws and if You miss for one of the 2 Effects you take full damage. I think that's a good compromise and makes sense.

BUT it doesn't even matter, because either way it's broken on a tank with Metamagic. for all the reasons i listed above.
And for pure DPR calculations at the very least you take half damage on one target, i.e. 4.5d8 and add that to whatever else you do with your actual actions. Realistically though you will have ~3 Targets and only one of them will make the DC19 Saving throw, so that's ~100 DPR for free each round on top of whatever Nova shenanigans you do.

[Arkhios]

I like you, you are nice in the internet :)

Thanks. I try to be. Due to work-related stress, I've had mood swings lately that may have caused me to fail at that occasionally. But, I try my best to be amiable (and fair) towards everyone, at every times.

[LudicSavant]

Any way this is absolutely insane considering that Spirit Guardians is already good, but balanced on a Cleric. On a Sorcerer it's already broken because of Distant Spell MM

Distant Spell doesn't work on Spirit Guardians, either.

[jdolch]

Distant Spell doesn't work on Spirit Guardians, either.

The Spell says:
Range: Self(15 Foot Radius)

So the 15 Foot Radius is under Range.
So the Range is larger than 5 feet.
So Distant Spell applies.

That interpretation is just as justified as the other one.

Distant Spell doesn't apply and it doesn't stack. Why? Because that's your opinion. The rules don't say that at all IN AN UNAMBIGUOUS WAY.

I am willing to be convinced otherwise (and for balancing reasons I probably would even houserule that way) but I will not accept any Argument that comes down to Sage Advice. (For the same reason I don't listen to dating coaches who are virgins)


Extensive Rules Lawyering aside: My original point stands. Sure if you rule that neither one applies then it's weaker than it "could be" but It's still amazing for all the reasons I mentioned, non of which actually need Distant or Stacking to work.

[NNescio]

And again the Question is Why.
And again the Answer is: Because Crawford tweeted something from his toilet.

The Spell says:

So the 15 Foot Radius is under Range.
So the Range is larger than 5 feet.
So Distant Spell applies.

That interpretation is just as justified as the other one.

Distant Spell doesn't apply and it doesn't stack. Why? Because that's your opinion. The rules don't say that at all IN AN UNAMBIGUOUS WAY.

My personal Opinion: I really don't care. The Spell does what I want it to do. I am fine with it not stacking and with distant spell not applying. But please stop pretending that that's what the rules say. It's not.
That changes the second Crawford comes off the Toilet, goes to work and packs all his tweets into an actual Errata. Then it's in the rules.

I swear I have literally no respect left for the guy. You write a Rule Book (in the 5th Iteration of the same Rules no less) and then spent the next 8 years clarifying what you meant by what you wrote. Sorry but nothing says: "I am terrible at my job" like that. And now i am supposed to listen to his "advice" when he couldn't be bothered to do it right in the first place ... well 5th place? Nope, sorry.

Extensive Rules Lawyering aside: My original point stands. Sure if you rule that neither one applies then it's weaker than it "could be" but It's still amazing for all the reasons I mentioned, non of which actually need Distant or Stacking to work.

And back to the Topic: Single Action (or even hit), Single Target is irrelevant except for purely hypothetical Bragging Rights.

Self (15-foot radius)≠ 15-feet.

Spirit Guardians has a range of Self. The part within the parentheses merely describes the shape of the spell's effect. Spirit Guardians does not qualify for Distant Spell.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Distant Spell doesn't apply and it doesn't stack. Why? Because that's your opinion. The rules don't say that at all IN AN UNAMBIGUOUS WAY.

I think it's pretty unambiguous, range is described as either a unit of distance, self or touch. Spirit Guardians is recognized as having a range of touch, the area of effect after you cast the spell is 15ft.

We know this is an intended interaction, as Distant spell allows spells with a range to go up to double their distance and spells with a range of touch to go up to 30ft. It says nothing about spells with a range of self, it doesn't affect those.

Here's the PHB reference to spell range, if you're curious

Chapter 10: Spellcasting / Casting a Spell / Range
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.

[jdolch]

I think it's pretty unambiguous, range is described as either a unit of distance, self or touch. Spirit Guardians is recognized as having a range of touch, the area of effect after you cast the spell is 15ft.

We know this is an intended interaction, as Distant spell allows spells with a range to go up to double their distance and spells with a range of touch to go up to 30ft. It says nothing about spells with a range of self, it doesn't affect those.

Here's the PHB reference to spell range, if you're curious

You think. So it's your Opinion and i totally respect that. I am just playing Advocatus Diavoli here:


Chapter 10: Spellcasting / Casting a Spell / Range
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet.


Range: Self(15 Foot Radius)

So it doesn not have a Range of only "Self", it's "Self" and 15 Feet Radius


Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.


when the creature enters the area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it must make a Wisdom saving throw

So it does not affect only you (like the shield spell). It affects any creature that is within a sphere with a radius of 15 feet, centered on you.

I am not saying you are wrong. I am just saying that your Interpretation is one of at least 2 possible Interpretations.

[ProsecutorGodot]

SNIP

The spell, when cast, affects only you. The results of the spell have a specified range, which is not tied to the range when cast. You can't double the range of a spell that targets yourself.

"When cast" is imporant, as that is the only range that matters when you talk about Distant Spell. Another example of this interaction would be Eyebite. When cast, it has a range of self but the spell has a range for its effects of 60ft.

Spirit Guardians when cast causes spirits to float around you.

A small list of spells with a range of self but an effect of 5ft or more:
-Color Spray (15ft Cone)
-Cone of Cold (60ft Cone)
-Control Weather (5 mile radius)
-Globe of Invulnerability (10ft, this one in particular I think works best to show how the parenthesis range isn't meant to be used as a proper range for Distant Spell)
-Gust of Wind (60ft long, 5ft 10ft line)
-Far Step (60ft)

I'll rephrase then. It is unambiguous. The idea (and functionality) of Distant Spell is to cast a spell from a greater distance away. This isn't the same as casting a spell with a wider area of effect, otherwise spells like Fireball should be applicable to use Distant spell as a means of achieving a greater explosion radius. The way the feature is written supports this, as it grants no ability to affect spells with a range of Self.

[jdolch]

Ok. Lets bring this tangent to an End and assume you are correct.

Again it doesn't actually matter one bit for the purpose of this thread.

To recap:

- The Sorcadin can cast this on himself and then concentrate on it without taking any further action.
- It will result in [Number of Enemies inside 15ft x 4.5D8] to [Number of Enemies inside 15ft x 9D8] Extra Damage per round.
- The Sorcadin can then Proceed to use all of his actions for Smiting. (Of course with only one enemy in sight you wouldn't use Spirit Guardians, probably Hold Person/Monster)
So:
- Spirit Guardians = Minimum of 4.5D8
- Attack+Smite = Minimum Of [(1d8+9) + (5D8)]
- Extra Attack+Smite = Minimum Of [(1d8+9) + (5D8)]
- Quickened Booming Blade+Smite: [(1D8+9) + (3D8) + (5D8)]

Now the Target can basically decide if he wants to try to escape, Eat the Secondary Effect from BB and potentially eat another Booming Blade and another Smite and another Secondary Effect OR Stay there And eat the above again in the next Round.

So Either:
- BBSec = [4D8]
+ possibly an AoO BB+Smite+BBSec: [(1D8+9) + (3D8) + (5D8) + (4D8)]

So that's [30D8 + 27] or possibly [43D8 + 36] if he eats the reaction.
(This is assuming 16 Str, All hits, No crits)

Just for giggles with Hold Person and failed saving throw this becomes
- Spirit Guardians = 9D8
- Attack+Smite = Minimum Of [(2d8+9) + 10D8)]
- Extra Attack+Smite = Minimum Of [(2d8+9) + (10D8)]
- Quickened Booming Blade+Smite: [(2D8+9) + (6D8) + (10D8)]

Well this time he doesn't eat the BB because he can't move but oh well, still 51D8 + 36

And the cost for this is 2 SorceryPoints, 1 L9 Slot, 3 L4 Slots (The 9th Level Slot is of course completely Wasted here. You would only do that if there were a lot of enemies in which case you do a **** ton more than this in collateral, especially if you use the Quicken not for Booming Blade but to (Up-)Cast Another AoE Spell)

I am tired so I probably made a mistake somewhere, go find it :P
(I am not saying this is OP or anything. Other classes can do just as much Damage or otherwise Win the fight at that level. Just playing around with some numbers)

P.S. Also I really hope you found a better Weapon by Level 20 than a run-of-the-mill Longsword.

BUT this whole exercise is pointless anyway because obviously if you can just get enough Targets into a high Level (or upcast) AoE Spell you can do tens of thousands Points of Damage in a single Action

Fun Question: Do you kill the millions of tiny Organisms on everybodys Skin and in the Environment when you do an AoE? Because thats like a bazillion D8 right there :)

[Spiritchaser]

Here's another rather wonky way to deal 15d8 with a single attack (and thus, 30d8 with a critical)

Paladin 11/Sorcerer 9 with the Shadow Blade and Booming Blade.

Shadow Blade (cast from a 7th level slot; Conc. required): 5d8 (psychic) damage
Divine Smite (expending a 4th level slot): 6d8 (radiant) damage if fiend or undead
Improved Divine Smite: 1d8 (radiant) damage
Booming Blade: 3d8 (thunder) damage

5d8+6d8+1d8+3d8 = 15d8. Doubled to 30d8.


Sir: I take strong exception to your use of the word “wonky”!

This is very much the goal for a fairly normal build!

And with damage this high, quickening a cantrip is pretty easy to justify.

Now: I’ll admit that the more interesting Dex/Divine soul version is a bit wonky, because it’s irritatingly MAD, but with Elven accuracy, you crit a LOT when it’s dark... and with Thaumaturgy it’s dark a lot.

Yes I’m aware you know this, my point is only that it shouldn’t be considered odd to see a build like this, or see such a character attack this way.

Sorcadin only though...

Cough grumble “wonky!” Grumble mutter grumble.

[Arkhios]

Sir: I take strong exception to your use of the word “wonky”!

This is very much the goal for a fairly normal build!

And with damage this high, quickening a cantrip is pretty easy to justify.

Now: I’ll admit that the more interesting Dex/Divine soul version is a bit wonky, because it’s irritatingly MAD, but with Elven accuracy, you crit a LOT when it’s dark... and with Thaumaturgy it’s dark a lot.

Yes I’m aware you know this, my point is only that it shouldn’t be considered odd to see a build like this, or see such a character attack this way.

Sorcadin only though...

Cough grumble “wonky!” Grumble mutter grumble.

It's not that it would be wonky because it would be odd, but rather it's wonky because it's so easy to accomplish. I suppose I was aiming for a bit self-irony there.

[Aimeryan]

If it helps, Jdolch, I'm with you on the Distant Spirit Guardians. My reasoning is that the value is in the Range line of the spell, thus is part of the range. Note that there are spells that have a radius that does not appear in the Range line, like Darkness or Holy Aura - Distant would not work with those. If there is not meant to be a mechanical difference between X (Y radius) and X then why have X (Y radius)?