Running into DMs try to kill psionic characters

[Drache64]

I love psionic characters for their point based power system. It makes more sense to me (coming from videogames with Mana bars) than spell slots.

But I've found it quite common for DMs to allow me to play the psionics handbook and quickly find my character too powerful at level 7. When I show them the book and show them psionic creatures they might use if they want... they typically try to kill me instead.

Example:
Walk into room full of invisible goblins with poisoned tipped arrows ignoring the rest of the party and shooting directly at my psion.

[JNAProductions]

I love psionic characters for their point based power system. It makes more sense to me (coming from videogames with Mana bars) than spell slots.

But I've found it quite common for DMs to allow me to play the psionics handbook and quickly find my character too powerful at level 7. When I show them the book and show them psionic creatures they might use if they want... they typically try to kill me instead.

Example:
Walk into room full of invisible goblins with poisoned tipped arrows ignoring the rest of the party and shooting directly at my psion.

How powerful are your characters, especially relative to the rest of the party?

[Psyren]

They're no more powerful than any other full caster. Are you following the golden rule that you can't spend more PP on a power than your manifester level?

[Roadie]

I love psionic characters for their point based power system. It makes more sense to me (coming from videogames with Mana bars) than spell slots.

But I've found it quite common for DMs to allow me to play the psionics handbook and quickly find my character too powerful at level 7. When I show them the book and show them psionic creatures they might use if they want... they typically try to kill me instead.

Example:
Walk into room full of invisible goblins with poisoned tipped arrows ignoring the rest of the party and shooting directly at my psion.

I feel like there's context here that you're conveniently eliding, like play style conflict issues, personal grudges of some variety, or the ever popular "not following the maximum PP spent by manifester level" issue.

[Drache64]

How powerful are your characters, especially relative to the rest of the party?

Other characters were level 9 with weighted greatswords and other OP shinanigans.

I was using the 7d6 in 30 ft to clear fodder from room to room. Mixed with the time hop power to send bosses into the future.

[Drache64]

I feel like there's context here that you're conveniently eliding, like play style conflict issues, personal grudges of some variety, or the ever popular "not following the maximum PP spent by manifester level" issue.

None of that is present here

[Drache64]

They're no more powerful than any other full caster. Are you following the golden rule that you can't spend more PP on a power than your manifester level?
Yes sir.

Level 7 doing 7d6 damage

[Crake]

Other characters were level 9 with weighted greatswords and other OP shinanigans.

I was using the 7d6 in 30 ft to clear fodder from room to room. Mixed with the time hop power to send bosses into the future.

I mean, "weighted greatsword" and "OP shenanigans" don't really fit in the same sentence around here.

That said, 7d6 in 30ft at level 9 isn't that big a deal.

If you want to play with a mana system, but don't want to play a psion because you think your DM wants to kill you because of it, just use the spell point system in unearthed arcana and play a sorcerer/wizard. That way you can be both not-a-psion and use a "mana" system.

If your DM still tries to kill you, then it sounds more like he doesn't like casters than he doesn't like psions.

[Drache64]

I mean, "weighted greatsword" and "OP shenanigans" don't really fit in the same sentence around here.

That said, 7d6 in 30ft at level 9 isn't that big a deal.

If you want to play with a mana system, but don't want to play a psion because you think your DM wants to kill you because of it, just use the spell point system in unearthed arcana and play a sorcerer/wizard. That way you can be both not-a-psion and use a "mana" system.

If your DM still tries to kill you, then it sounds more like he doesn't like casters than he doesn't like psions.

Lol you're right about the weighted greatswords, I am just used to people in this forum trying to attack people who use those types of weapons. But my point was they were all 2 levels higher and knew how to use optimal equipment.

I truly think every DM who does this just suffers from not knowing The psionic books very well and are taken off guard on the versatility of powers mixed with some unfamiliar mechanics such as time manipulation.

For all those looking for a flaw in my play style, not every person who has an issue with DMs is a problem player, and not every problem in a group results from toxic parties. I think people here are too quick to assert themselves as the party police instead of just sharing experiences and enjoying community.

[JNAProductions]

Lol you're right about the weighted greatswords, I am just used to people in this forum trying to attack people who use those types of weapons. But my point was they were all 2 levels higher and knew how to use optimal equipment.

I truly think every DM who does this just suffers from not knowing The psionic books very well and are taken off guard on the versatility of powers mixed with some unfamiliar mechanics such as time manipulation.

For all those looking for a flaw in my play style, not every person who has an issue with DMs is a problem player, and not every problem in a group results from toxic parties. I think people here are too quick to assert themselves as the party police instead of just sharing experiences and enjoying community.

You gave very sparse details on what's going on. Regardless of the situation, we just plain need more info to offer good advice. (Or at least, good advice that's SPECIFIC. I can give good advice that's generic just fine.) So we're probing and trying to figure out what's going on so we can try to help.

[Crake]

For all those looking for a flaw in my play style, not every person who has an issue with DMs is a problem player, and not every problem in a group results from toxic parties. I think people here are too quick to assert themselves as the party police instead of just sharing experiences and enjoying community.

I mean, I'd say that a DM actively singling out a player and trying to kill them off with, as your example, a room full of invisible goblins with poisoned tips who all ignored the rest of the party and went straight for you? Yeah, there sounds like a problem there. Whether it's you, or him, someone's got beef with someone.

[Crichton]

Psions do tend to make pretty good blasters. Perhaps he's just not accustomed to as strong and versatile a blaster caster as what you're playing. 7d6 in a 3ft cone (assuming you're using one of the Energy ____ powers?) isn't really all that much, but it is quite adaptable, being able to switch energy types at will.


Of course, a level 7 wizard would be dropping 7d6 fireballs that cover more than twice the area (44 squares for a 20ft burst, instead of 24 squares for a 30ft cone). And the Wiz would be doing that from 100ft away from the action. Many/most psionic blasting powers are Close range.

[Drache64]

I mean, I'd say that a DM actively singling out a player and trying to kill them off with, as your example, a room full of invisible goblins with poisoned tips who all ignored the rest of the party and went straight for you? Yeah, there sounds like a problem there. Whether it's you, or him, someone's got beef with someone.

Me and this DM were great friends and swapped DMing for each other from time to time. He actually introduced me to d&d and lent me all his books.

I found psionics on my own and simply think he was surprised by powers versatility and power. To him character death wasn't a big deal and a common part of the game, in his mind he could simply kill my character and force me to reroll to anything he could handle better.

Not my play style but still think he's an awesome DM and played many more sessions with him, I just brace myself to go hardcore mode if I want to play a psionic.

[Crichton]

To him character death wasn't a big deal and a common part of the game, in his mind he could simply kill my character and force me to reroll to anything he could handle better.

There's a biiiig difference though between 'Not gonna fudge rolls and pull punches, so characters might die by a few unlucky rolls' and 'actively targets your character for assassination because he doesn't like the way it's playing out'

[Drache64]

You gave very sparse details on what's going on. Regardless of the situation, we just plain need more info to offer good advice. (Or at least, good advice that's SPECIFIC. I can give good advice that's generic just fine.) So we're probing and trying to figure out what's going on so we can try to help.

I was responding to this:
"I feel like there's context here that you're conveniently eliding, like play style conflict issues, personal grudges of some variety, or the ever popular "not following the maximum PP spent by manifester level" issue."

Those are accusations my friend, not probing questions. And I find this attitude far too common here. It's why I don't give too many details because often I'll say something small like "I was playing an Elan psion" and suddenly the majority of the posts are about how I chose a broken race and I'm a munchkin.

[Drache64]

There's a biiiig difference though between 'Not gonna fudge rolls and pull punches, so characters might die by a few unlucky rolls' and 'actively targets your character for assassination because he doesn't like the way it's playing out'

Like I said in his mind he could simply kill my character and force me to reroll to anything he could handle better.

To him this is no biggie, I disagree but I know how to handle it.

This point of this post was to say I've actually had 3 different DMs struggle to deal with psionics

[Drache64]

Psions do tend to make pretty good blasters. Perhaps he's just not accustomed to as strong and versatile a blaster caster as what you're playing. 7d6 in a 3ft cone (assuming you're using one of the Energy ____ powers?) isn't really all that much, but it is quite adaptable, being able to switch energy types at will.


Of course, a level 7 wizard would be dropping 7d6 fireballs that cover more than twice the area (44 squares for a 20ft burst, instead of 24 squares for a 30ft cone). And the Wiz would be doing that from 100ft away from the action. Many/most psionic blasting powers are Close range.

Energy explosion is 40ft area, the other version of it is 40 foot line if I'm not mistaken.

Psions can also drop more energy explosions than a wizard can send fireballs

[Crake]

I was responding to this:
"I feel like there's context here that you're conveniently eliding, like play style conflict issues, personal grudges of some variety, or the ever popular "not following the maximum PP spent by manifester level" issue."

Those are accusations my friend, not probing questions. And I find this attitude far too common here. It's why I don't give too many details because often I'll say something small like "I was playing an Elan psion" and suddenly the majority of the posts are about how I chose a broken race and I'm a munchkin.

I'll be honest, I just straight up disagree with your assessment of these forums. Playing an elan psion is about as quintissential as they come, there's nothing munchkin-y or power-gamey about it, and elan is far from broken (as long as you remember you only get 1 immediate action per round, so you can at best boost 1 save or negate the damage of 1 attack, and you cannot do so while flat-footed). If you think that's something that would trigger cries of munchkinery around here then you vastly overestimate the strength of such a character.

But honestly, if you have such a bad opinion of the forums, then you'd actually be worse off by omitting information, because all you do when you leave things vague is leave people to fill in the blanks themselves, and people will invariably come up with the worst possible scenarios in their mind and begin from there. Transparency is key, but at the same time, assuming the worst of the people you're coming to for help isn't a great starting position.

[Drache64]

I'll be honest, I just straight up disagree with your assessment of these forums. Playing an elan psion is about as quintissential as they come, there's nothing munchkin-y or power-gamey about it, and elan is far from broken (as long as you remember you only get 1 immediate action per round, so you can at best boost 1 save or negate the damage of 1 attack, and you cannot do so while flat-footed). If you think that's something that would trigger cries of munchkinery around here then you vastly overestimate the strength of such a character.

But honestly, if you have such a bad opinion of the forums, then you'd actually be worse off by omitting information, because all you do when you leave things vague is leave people to fill in the blanks themselves, and people will invariably come up with the worst possible scenarios in their mind and begin from there. Transparency is key, but at the same time, assuming the worst of the people you're coming to for help isn't a great starting position.

You realize this is how the post reads to me right? :

Me: On this forum people tend to nit pick and put the blame on me

You: I disagree with small things you said and I think it's your problem.

lol. Anyways, I just came here to share experiences not ask for help. When I do ask for help here I state very clearly that I am asking for help. This post was simply asking if people had a similar experience and and to give them the opportunity to share their experiences.

The first few responses said my scenario was unrelateable and probably my fault and started to nit pick things about me, my group, and my play style. I did what I tend to do (shame on me) and allowed myself to get trolled into focusing on the negative posts instead of giving energy and time to those who said my topic was relateable and probably had stories to tell if I had correctly focused on them.

[Particle_Man]

I would suggest showcasing some weaknesses of your psion to the dm. Like spend all your points and go “oh sorry dudes I am out of juice so reduced to crossbow duty, but I will be ok tomorrow!” and “sorry I can’t help here dudes; I don’t have the relevant power or skill!” and compliment other pcs heavily for doing things you can’t do with your psion.

[Crake]

lol. Anyways, I just came here to share experiences not ask for help. When I do ask for help here I state very clearly that I am asking for help. This post was simply asking if people had a similar experience and and to give them the opportunity to share their experiences.

Honestly, the way you framed your first post really didn't sound like you were looking to make a storytime thread. Forgive the community for trying to solve a problem that apparently doesn't exist (though if you ask me, a DM who kills off characters becuase he doesn't like them is a problem, whether you see it that way or not).


The first few responses said my scenario was unrelateable and probably my fault and started to nit pick things about me, my group, and my play style. I did what I tend to do (shame on me) and allowed myself to get trolled into focusing on the negative posts instead of giving energy and time to those who said my topic was relateable and probably had stories to tell if I had correctly focused on them.

Nobody said the problem was unrelatable, I'm sure the majority of people here have had their fair share of bad, killer DMs. There was only one negative post in the whole thread, and the guy never posted further, any other negativity you read was projected on your end, everyone else was literally just interested in helping solve your (apparently non existent) problem. The first step to fixing a problem is to ask questions to understand it properly, and it seems like you took those inquisitions as accusations. Side note, nobody trolled you, trolling is decidedly against the forum rules and is a punishable offence, if you legitimately think someone is trolling you, report them, and if the forum moderators agree, that person will be infraced.

With regards to DMs killing off characters they don't like, I've had that experience myself, I made a moderately competent wizard, and my DM didn't like the agency that came with playing a competent character, so anything my character tried to do was instantly vetoed to be a failure, and my characters repeatedly killed over and over. I think it reached somewhere about the 40s before I realised, oh wait, I don't enjoy dying over and over so the DM can tell their own scripted narrative with no player agency, and I left that table never to play again.

[Particle_Man]

By the way do you play with the power nerfs introduced in complete psionic?

[Oberron]

Have you tried talking to him outside of game time and telling him you feel like you are being targeted and give him examples and ask if there is a problem?

[Malphegor]

it might be the unfamiliarity that leads him to be more aggressive towards you.

Psionics is, and probably will always to me at least, weird.

It scratches an itch in mechanics that most probably didn't even notice was itching, and does some stuff better than magic, which for so much of the rest of the game is the one king power to rule them all.

Not sure what you can do though. Buy him his own copy of Complete Psionics/Expanded Psionics Handbook to digest in his own time? Link him to some optimisation threads and go 'I'm not doing these things but this is how he could be OP just in case you think that'.

Hard to not be passive aggressive though.:smallsmile:

[daremetoidareyo]

My experience is that psionics are just banned. Like, in the wild, it seems like 80% of tables just don't do psionics.

Your experiences sound like they are on the way to joining the 80%.

[Godskook]

Example:
Walk into room full of invisible goblins with poisoned tipped arrows ignoring the rest of the party and shooting directly at my psion.

The amount of context here is grossly lacking. Did you enter the room first? Did the goblins have experience with your character and his AoE of death? Does the DM -only- do encounters that prioritize your character? Or have similar encounters happened to other players in the past?

[Quertus]

So, what is the purpose of this thread?

To me, it looked like an opportunity to repeat my refrains of "balance to the table" and "bad GM is bad". But then I read this,



To him character death wasn't a big deal and a common part of the game, in his mind he could simply kill my character and force me to reroll to anything he could handle better.

So, this still represents a lack of social skills, killing characters that don't fit rather than, you know, being an adult and actually (gasp!) talking to the other person about it. But at least it's a recognizable, common failing.

But,



With regards to DMs killing off characters they don't like, I've had that experience myself, I made a moderately competent wizard, and my DM didn't like the agency that came with playing a competent character, so anything my character tried to do was instantly vetoed to be a failure, and my characters repeatedly killed over and over. I think it reached somewhere about the 40s before I realised, oh wait, I don't enjoy dying over and over so the DM can tell their own scripted narrative with no player agency, and I left that table never to play again.

…there is this to consider. GMs with lack of social skills + hates agency often = bad railroad GM.

[RNightstalker]

lol. Anyways, I just came here to share experiences not ask for help. When I do ask for help here I state very clearly that I am asking for help. This post was simply asking if people had a similar experience and and to give them the opportunity to share their experiences.

This seems like a failure to communicate on a lot of fronts. In your defense you didn't ask anything in your OP. In the forum's defense, they jumped into fix it mode because that is the vast majority of the posts here.

It could be worth reposting about in a new thread, before this one gets way off topic.

[Crichton]

My experience is that psionics are just banned. Like, in the wild, it seems like 80% of tables just don't do psionics.

Your experiences sound like they are on the way to joining the 80%.

Which is a darn shame, frankly. Psionics aren't any more overpowered than magic is. I'd say less so, honestly, since there just isn't as much material from as many different sources to mine for unintended interactions between things to exploit.

There's very little, if anything, that psionics can do that magic can't do, and frequently do better. And it's not even really a different system to have to learn. It's structured pretty much just the same as magic, with 'spells' spread across 9 different levels, and effects that are described in the same terms and with the same formatting. As alternate magic systems, psionics is the one that needs the least amount of work to integrate. Almost none, really.

/Manifesto

[FaerieGodfather]

Which is a darn shame, frankly. Psionics aren't any more overpowered than magic is. I'd say less so, honestly, since there just isn't as much material from as many different sources to mine for unintended interactions between things to exploit.

I mean... my first 3.0 gaming group banned Monks for being too powerful.

Most gamers are human, and most human beings just aren't anywhere near as bright as they think they are.

[Crichton]

I mean... my first 3.0 gaming group banned Monks for being too powerful.

Most gamers are human, and most human beings just aren't anywhere near as bright as they think they are.

Hehe. So your response to '80% of tables ban psionics' is to say 'most people aren't too bright' ?

[Lorddenorstrus]

Hehe. So your response to '80% of tables ban psionics' is to say 'most people aren't too bright' ?

Sounds accurate to me. If people have no idea how the rules work on stuff, a player can makes a mistake intentionally or not and the DM sees things not happening "according to plan" so he knee jerk bans it rather than bothering to figure out the rules.

[FaerieGodfather]

Hehe. So your response to '80% of tables ban psionics' is to say 'most people aren't too bright' ?

Well, pretty much. There are actually a bunch of legitimate non-stupid reasons to ban 3.X psionics from your games, ranging from limiting the number of redundant subsystems in play to preserving existing class archetpes to maintaining a certain kind of fantasy tone to an infinite variety of personal preferences, and the one thing that every single instance of that infinite variety of legitimate reasons has in common is that I've never heard any of them ever given as the reason why psionics were banned in a game.

On the other hand, the one objectively wrong, easily debunked, and just plain stupid reason? Not only is that the main reason given in the overwhelming majority of cases, but you can actually make those DMs actively dumber by presenting them with evidence that every single thing they believe is contrafactual.

It's probably more accurate to say that most human decisionmaking is based on criteria that the humans making the decisions aren't qualified to evaluate. They aren't necessarily dumb, but they've created a social environment for themsleves that's too smart for them-- and modern D&D is without a doubt a social environment that's too smart for most of its players.

edit: I'm at no point suggesting that people shouldn't run their own games at their own tables as they damned well please. Quite the opposite, actually: players who think they're smarter than this need to be smart enough to recognize arguments they can't win, and smart enough to recognize that arguing about the rules of the game means nobody is having a good time. Either play the game, or quit and make your own game with blackjack and hookers.

[Crichton]

...

I like your style, kid.

/mafiadonaccent

[Quertus]

arguing about the rules of the game means nobody is having a good time.

Lot of good stuff in your post, but I've got to disagree with this bit. My brother and I will happily rules lawyer for hours, and, if we improved the way the game is played in the process, we will consider it one of the best sessions we've had.

So, really, sufficiently smart players should realize that not everyone doesn't have a good time arguing about the rules of the game.

[Drache64]

So, what is the purpose of this thread?

I notice a lot of hate for Psionics (personally, I can't vouch for any one else's experience), was just curious if anyone else was seeing it too.

Sadly a lot of people on here tend to victim blame: "If you have a problem it's your fault."

Me: The DM was trying to kill my character because he didn't know how to handle psionics
Community at large: Well how short was your character's skirt?
(If you don't get the reference I can't help you).

Any ways, it seems that people have had similar experiences so maybe I am not the problem.

"Psionics will always be weird"
"Psionics banned at 80% of tables"
etc.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You presented what looked like a problem so folks tried to both sort out the source of the problem (which could have been either your fault or the GM's due to a number of factors) and then present possible fixes to the problem.

Since you didn't explicitly ask a question at all, the implicit one was assumed to be "This is a probem, what do?" If you had simply ended your OP with "I'm just gonna reroll but has anyone else had an experience like this?" You'd have gotten to the answer you sought "yeah, pretty common actually," much faster.

All that out of the way, there's nothing wrong with a meat-grinder but it's not right, IMO, for the GM to be trying to shove your character alone into it. Psionics is fine, power-wise, unless your DM is letting you get away with 15 minute adventuring days? Their capacity to "nova" at problems is higher than that of a any vancian caster.

I figure at 7 you'd have about 60ish PP? So that's 8 powers at full augment on any given day to the sorcerer's 4 of his at a spell level lower or the wizard's 1 at the same level. The fact they auto-scale while psionic powers don't never crosses their mind after they notice that. They don't get to 60d6 coming out of the psion vs the wizard's 70d6 for a pure blaster or that the wizard gets cantrips past that. The sorcerer's 112d6 makes it laughable by comparison.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: The psionics may still be alive, but this thread isn't.