Is Ancients Paladin metagaming?

[Guy Lombard-O]

If an Ancients Paladin witnesses an opposing caster use Conjure Animals to summon some "beasts", does it cross the line of impermissible/uncool metagaming if the paladin attempts to turn the animals (which are actually fey, according to the Conjure Animals spell) using his channel divinity power of Turn the Faithless (which does effect fey creatures)?

While the paladin does see the beasts appear out of midair and might know they're summoned creatures, there's no particular reason for the paladin to know how that spell works, particularly without spending an action to make an arcana check.

What do the Playgrounders think?

[Lunali]

If the paladin understands their own abilities, they probably have a decent idea of the kinds of things they can affect. Summoned creatures are among the most common type of fey for such a paladin to be able to turn.

If the paladin does not understand their own abilities, arcana checks are probably in order.

[MrStabby]

I would say its probably fine, but does depend on the style of game.

I tend to go with the argument that these folk are professional adventurers. Knowing the abilities/properties of spells is a matter of life or death. If the spells exist in the world, especially if the spells are sufficiently powerful that casters are more likely to prepare them, then the paladin will know the details. Furthermore this paladin has had a greater incentive than many to remember that the spell summons fey - it makes a personal difference to him. It isn't like this is some obscure arcana knowledge from some high level spell that is so niche even the high level casters will not prepare it.

Ultimately you will need to decide if it is a common spell in your world. If so, then it is fine to know this kind of thing, if not then maybe roll a check (probably nature) - DC of 10 + spell level is common, give ancients paladin advantage as they have a special incentive to recognise/remember fey.

One thing to bear in mind is that it could also be an illusion. For this use some description information. If the caster looks like a hippy and you could smell them before you could see them then it is likely that the beasts that suddenly appeared are fey. On the other hand, if the caster is wearing a robe covered in arcane symbols and carries a big book with them then lean more towards thinking they are illusions.

[Lunali]

One other thing I thought of, don't make it an action to make the arcana (or other knowledge skills in combat) check, make it automatic. Characters aren't stopping to think about whether they know something or not in the heat of battle, either they know about their enemy and act based on that knowledge or they don't know and act without the knowledge.

[Guy Lombard-O]

One other thing I thought of, don't make it an action to make the arcana (or other knowledge skills in combat) check, make it automatic. Characters aren't stopping to think about whether they know something or not in the heat of battle, either they know about their enemy and act based on that knowledge or they don't know and act without the knowledge.

I tend to agree with you about the arcana check. As far as what the paladin simply knows about conjured beasts being fey, I suppose that the one spell he's truly familiar with in that area would be Find Steed, which conjures (in his case) a fey that takes the form of a beast.

Oh, and a fun note for all ancients paladins out there: despite the thematic nature of choosing a fey as the source of your Find Steed, it's not a good idea. Choose a celestial instead. Nothing's quite a fun as invoking Turn the Faithless, and then having your steed buck you off and run away.

[Snowbluff]

I think a nature check can also be used to identify if something is a fey or not. I'd say guessing a type should have a lower check than a proper ID.

[Spiritchaser]

Unless the campaign or the player is, specifically focused on a time of discovery, that is the character(s) have, for some abnormal reason, less than the expected understanding of themselves or the world? I would very much expect that the paladin to be fully versed in his/her abilities and their uses.

Did they learn it from their mentor? Their holy order? Communion with the light that pervades the wild places? I’d leave that up to the player.

Presuming that players must fail to understand how game mechanics work is going to be frustrating for the players, difficult to apply consistently without a lot of prep work, and it’s going to apply unevenly across different classes.

Now: if you want to deliberately focus a part of your campaign on a time where certain things are not known, then consider:

How will this impact specific encounters? Will you need to eliminate specific mechanisms, because the players won’t “have” the tools they really have?

Should some encounters award more experience than normal? A few of them are most certainly going to be more difficult.

How are the players going to discover what their powers can do? How are you going to make the discovery process equitable across different classes? Do you really want to gate an ancients pally’s abilities behind a successful arcana check? (Hint: No you don’t)

I’ve only ever messed about with this for one level of play (and only at low level). I wouldn’t say it worked badly, but I certainly wouldn’t presume or suggest that it was a normal way to run things.

I don’t know how it’d work at higher level, but I have to presume that it’d be a more severe impact.

I’ve also never had a player deliberately hobble themselves this way to play a concept. If they did, I imagine they’d be earning a few inspirations in the process.

[Sigreid]

I don't get why an ancients paladin wouldn't know how summoning works.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will say that if the Paladin saw the spell casting or have any reason to believe that creatures are not trained pets or something like this, he know that they are fey.

But if he have no information on the spell being cast and around the corner in a forest 8 wolfs jump on him, he need to discover it is a spell.

I will let him roll natural/survival to know the creatures are not from this area and probably summons and an arcana/int check when he see the caster to know that he is concentrating on a spell and do 1+1=summons.

It is very unlikely that he will not know that they are summons, less unlikely that non in his party know it.

I just leave the option to fail open so there will be the feeling of achievement and because failing can be fun(I know a DM that doesn't fails so good we want to get 1 more then 20 when it is his turn to run the game).

[Chronos]

If anything, it's more metagamey for the paladin to know about creature types. In-universe, he's more likely to know that his ability works on summoned creatures than he is to know that Beast and Fey are two different types that interact with spells in specific ways.

Though he probably does know about types, too, given that he also has a Divine Sense ability that can detect the sorts of things he can turn. It's not free (it has a limited number of uses per day and uses his action), but probably at some point in the past, he or some other member of his order has used Divine Sense on summoned creatures and discovered that they're actually fey.

[jaappleton]

Taken directly from the PHB description of the Oath of the Ancients:

The Oath of the Ancients is as old as the race of elves and the rituals of the druids. Sometimes called fey knights, green knights, or horned knights,

Emphasis mine.

I'd say its stands to reason they're fairly well versed in when a creature would be of Fey origin.

[adolann]

Taken directly from the PHB description of the Oath of the Ancients:

The Oath of the Ancients is as old as the race of elves and the rituals of the druids. Sometimes called fey knights, green knights, or horned knights,

Emphasis mine.

I'd say its stands to reason they're fairly well versed in when a creature would be of Fey origin.

I've never understood why Divine Sense doesn't include Fey if you are an Ancients Paladin.

[Spiritchaser]

I've never understood why Divine Sense doesn't include Fey if you are an Ancients Paladin.

In one campaign I’ve house ruled it does... though in that campaign those paladins are closely tied to the fry courts... and there are almost no undead until level 12 or so.

It has had very nearly no impact on gameplay.

[Snails]

Is it cool for the Cleric to turn undead when the mysteriously walking skeleton attacks him? Does he need to make a Religion check first to justify that mental leap?

IMHO a Paladin with the ability to turn Fey should be presumed to have a very good idea of what the most common ways to meet hostile Fey would be. Some very rough knowledge of the Conjure Animals spell would fall within that sphere.

[KorvinStarmast]

What do the Playgrounders think? Not metagaming. The problem with that premise is that it ignores the in character education that the paladin went through before adventuring started.

Think of all of the stuff that you knew/learned about the world by the time you graduated from high school. Now, put on top of that a formal education at a seminary, or a long term specialization training in the military, or a fusion of both. You learn a lot, and all that we see is the tip of the ice berg.

The world the paladin is filled with many kinds of magic. I may not be a doctor by training, but I can be aware of a lot of the basic of the practice of medicine in the general sense.

Some DM's will call for an ability check though to recognize what he's seeing.

I would not, but that mechanic is there if you feel that under stress in a fight "remembering useful things" calls for a check. That's certainly reasonable.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Not metagaming. The problem with that premise is that it ignores the in character education that the paladin went through before adventuring started.

Think of all of the stuff that you knew/learned about the world by the time you graduated from high school. Now, put on top of that a formal education at a seminary, or a long term specialization training in the military, or a fusion of both. You learn a lot, and all that we see is the tip of the ice berg.

The world the paladin is filled with many kinds of magic. I may not be a doctor by training, but I can be aware of a lot of the basic of the practice of medicine in the general sense.

Some DM's will call for an ability check though to recognize what he's seeing.

I would not, but that mechanic is there if you feel that under stress in a fight "remembering useful things" calls for a check. That's certainly reasonable.

I seem to recall that XGtE suggests that the PC's reaction can be used for an arcana check, I guess while the paladin is seeing the spell cast. Perhaps that would be a fair and reasonable way to fulfill that need.

I could definitely see your point about the background education which some paladins should have. One issue with this paladin is that his background is as a Guild Artisan, and his relationship to his empowering god is a personal one (without any formal education other than basic fighting taught to him). He worships a nature god, and isn't associated with any established order or church. He has no proficiency in arcana or nature or religion. So I'm not sure how well his backstory supports any particular knowledge of the specifics of other classes' spells.


Sigreid

I don't get why an ancients paladin wouldn't know how summoning works.

I guess my thinking was more that there aren't any actual summoning spells on either the paladin or ancients-expanded spell lists. So it seemed more like the question would be "why would an ancients paladin know how summoning works". But that is somewhat mitigated by the Find Steed spell.

[Chronos]

Huh, and this is the first that I've noticed that Divine Sense doesn't cover all of the same creature types as Detect Evil and Good.

(for the record, Divine Sense does celestials, fiends, and undead, while Detect Evil and Good does those three plus fey and elementals)