Third Level Transformation

[Bigmouth]

They aren't as bad as PrCs from back in the day, but I'm not a fan of the big change in character feel/fantasy that occurs at level 3. You're a fighter without a hint of magic, then bangozoomo you're casting spells or shooting arrows through walls. You're a rogue with no skill in wilderness stuff, then boom...you are completely all about the wilderness! Normal ranger....then bam! Darkvision and invisibility to darkvision.

Does this bother anyone beside me? A ton of them feel like this should be something they picked at level 1 (Paladins definitely feel that way to me). That transition from generic fighter to EK is jarring. It feels like an event that needs more backstory and rp and...fluff? than dinging from 1 to 2. But half the party probably hits this transition at the exact same time, so it's pretty hard to do something for each and every one of the characters. Do people just ignore it? Background fluff that the players do or do not fill in at their discretion?

So 3 basic questions I suppose.
1 Does it bother anyone but me.
2 If so, what are the worst examples?
3 How do people try to make it better?

[Lunali]

The DM is the arbiter of what subclasses are available and if they don't like the suddenness of the subclasses they are entirely within their rights to have the players choose earlier and just roleplay as practicing those skills before they can actually use them properly.

Usually when people care about the suddenness at all, they either retcon or flashback to training in things before the eventual level up.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

They aren't as bad as PrCs from back in the day, but I'm not a fan of the big change in character feel/fantasy that occurs at level 3. You're a fighter without a hint of magic, then bangozoomo you're casting spells or shooting arrows through walls. You're a rogue with no skill in wilderness stuff, then boom...you are completely all about the wilderness! Normal ranger....then bam! Darkvision and invisibility to darkvision.

Does this bother anyone beside me? A ton of them feel like this should be something they picked at level 1 (Paladins definitely feel that way to me). That transition from generic fighter to EK is jarring. It feels like an event that needs more backstory and rp and...fluff? than dinging from 1 to 2. But half the party probably hits this transition at the exact same time, so it's pretty hard to do something for each and every one of the characters. Do people just ignore it? Background fluff that the players do or do not fill in at their discretion?

So 3 basic questions I suppose.
1 Does it bother anyone but me.
2 If so, what are the worst examples?
3 How do people try to make it better?

It doesn't really bother me. I just retcon it as oh, you were that type of Bard from the get go or some players have this stuff soo planed out they may as well of been one.

If I really think about it the rate of leveling bothers me. Then again, so do all the incidents the Enterprise gets in and their stardate system and rate of travel at warp doesn't always work the same.

Mostly though, I want to have fun so besides a couple jokes I try to let things slide.

[firelistener]

I let a lot of players start at level 3 unless they're a completely new player learning the game, so it's the effective starting level pretty often. Plus, I observe that most players tend to already know what subclass they want to pick when they build a level 1 character, so it's usually part of the backstory already. The exceptions I've seen were all players that didn't give a hoot about backstory in the first place, and they just picked whatever sounded optimal in the new class they were trying out when they hit level 3.

Edit: So, no, it doesn't really bother me. I love role playing and devising character back stories, but I feel it's a losing battle to expect that from every player.

[Sigreid]

I just take it as the subclass abilities you pick up at third level are things you've been working on and the stress of adventuring gives you that ah-ha moment that lets things fall into place. In the Rogue scout example, you're can be a pretty skilled scout out of the tin. You've had training in what I'll call advanced scout techniques. The unforgiving nature of adventuring drives those lessons home in a way study never did.

[Pex]

It doesn't bother me because this is a game. People get so caught up on story and character development they need to justify everything. There is nothing to justify. It's a game.

[MrStabby]

Whilst this is a bit odd, it is no more odd than things that happen at other levels. A cleric at level 10 gets to directly petition their god directly to intervene... but cant at a lower level. A valor bard hits level and suddenly out of nowhere is attacking twice as fast (or even a fighter doing the same). Why can a barbarian attack recklessly at level 2 in a sudden change to their style.

All in all it doesn't bother me too much. For me the bigger challenge is building a character involving a multiclass where it feels that some aspects of the character come online quite a bit later than they should.

[HappyDaze]

I let a lot of players start at level 3 unless they're a completely new player learning the game, so it's the effective starting level pretty often. Plus, I observe that most players tend to already know what subclass they want to pick when they build a level 1 character, so it's usually part of the backstory already. The exceptions I've seen were all players that didn't give a hoot about backstory in the first place, and they just picked whatever sounded optimal in the new class they were trying out when they hit level 3.

Edit: So, no, it doesn't really bother me. I love role playing and devising character back stories, but I feel it's a losing battle to expect that from every player.

For experiences players, I like starting at Level 5 (tier 2 is my favorite and I like tier 3 too, but tiers 1 & 4 are way less interesting to me), so they likewise get to start fairly well formed (unless they are going for a late swing into a multi-class combo).

[ThePolarBear]

Does this bother anyone beside me?

At level 3 BAM your wizard/druid/bard/sorcerer/warlock can now cast more powerful spells, suddendly. Same every 2 level till 17.

If you allow feats, at level 4 BAM everyone now can do something they couldn't. This includes suddendly running faster, acquiring sixth senses, eidetic memory, mastery of armor that since a bit ago prevented spellcasting completely and so on.

Either everyone has this problem, or no one has. It's not that EKs, Gloomstalkers or whatever are ANY special in this case.
They were training before and the fruit of their training came to fruition. They understood something that made the difference.

... or you can use/make a rule that requires training time to level up and /or gain particular features, like higher level spells (prehaps not slots), special traits and feats or whatever, if it bothers you that much.

[Chronos]

My first 5e character was an arcane trickster, starting at level 1 (I knew from the start that was the subclass I'd eventually take). I went with variant human and picked Ritual Caster as my feat, so I could have at least a little magical ability right from the start (his big jump at level 3 wasn't suddenly being able to cast spells; it was suddenly being able to cast them quickly). I also had Sage as my background, which fits nicely with learning to cast Int-based spells. And I tried to roleplay looking over the wizard's shoulder and picking up tips and pointers from him, except that the wizard wasn't interested.

Note, by the way, that multiclassing can have a similar effect at any level. A 6th-level barbarian could, at 7th level, suddenly decide to switch to wizard. As with abilities in a single class, you can choose to roleplay gradually working on the new abilities, or you can just ignore that for the mechanics.

[KorvinStarmast]

It doesn't bother me because this is a game. People get so caught up on story and character development they need to justify everything. There is nothing to justify. It's a game. Yeah.

I do find it kind of weird that:
Sorcerers and Clerics get all that at level 1. (Domain, kind)
Wizards get "all that" at level 2. (School)
Warlocks get patron at level 1. (Patron)
Druids get it at level 2: Land or Moon

Rangers, Fighters, Barbarians, Rogues, Monks: get it at level 3.
And Warlocks get it again at level 3 (Pact boon)

I think I understand why they did this, since this edition was trying to have players slowly grow in options as they learned how to play.

But I'll say that the progression is an odd juxtaposition.

Spell casters are a bit more complex, up front.

[Mortis_Elrod]

It doesn't bother me, mainly because alot times personal character growth is overlooked alot roleplay wise. Sometimes players will do a bit of training or whatever have you when there isn't much going on, but in general most of the parties attention isn't so narrow on each other so of course we miss things like that, and the overall plot is usually more important than all of this anyway.

So yeah, it doesn't bother me. and like Pex said, its a game.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Yes, it bothers me some. Not 3rd in particular though, since many level ups are just as jarring. One thing I actually found more illogical was the Wizards' spontaneous generation of new spells at level up. I mean, a character in a dungeon might level to third in the course of a few days in-game time. They haven't found a single scroll. They haven't had time to study anything, other than maybe changing a spell out during a long rest. Yet they suddenly know new spells, just because? Huh?!?

But...yeah. Like Pex said, it's a game. Level-up training would certainly make more sense. But it'd slow things down significantly in certain campaigns, and make the game too clunky.

EDIT: I'd actually add this: if D&D is an exercise in mutual, cooperative storytelling, it's sort of on the players to weave in some groundwork for the upcoming abilities they'll get at level up before it happens. The DM is busy telling the story of the rest of the world, and can only do so much. The player should think ahead and describe what they're doing to train or learn about the upcoming abilities as they play (where possible, obviously).

For example, when I played a wizard I said that he'd stolen a backup spell book and various materials from his Archmage master when he escaped. He still adhered to the rules of spending the required money for the inks to copy and such in the game, and he didn't learn any more spells than the two per level that leveling up grants a wizard. But at least I presented an in-game explanation for him learning/decoding brand new spells as he continued adventuring and leveling up.

[Sahe]

It only bothers me in a few very special cases or rather one case. All others are easily worked around without any hassle much hassle or can easily be done by handwaving it as *I trained on my rests* or whatever. But the case of the Beast Master Ranger is just so jarring for me because it straight up denies pretty much the first character concept that came to mind about it for me: The adventurer with their pet wolf (or insert other animal) they rescued/found/got when they were little and grew up with them together. Not to mention that Ranger is...not really all that great, it's actually my biggest issue with the class.

[Bjarkmundur]

I've yet to read the thread, decided it was best to post first.

I explain it at session 0 that the first 3 levels are simply means of introducing your character.

Think of a book or a anime. If you know everything there is to know about the character and his abilities just watching the the first episode/chapter, the rest of the series is far less engaging. You'd simply be left with an entire chapter of character description or an entire episode of just explaining.

My take on it is that a level 1 character has all the abilities of a level 3 character, but we simply don't get to see them until later. This is also why I aim to make the end of the third level the first climax of the story, to justify the characters 'holding back' and not 'revealing their full power' until that point, as seen here. (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8TaerQ43YgJ90rlEAWkSIRQ1fqGyZc d8qH3TQK9Di57ZjGXal) This is a very anime thing to do and we all love it when it happens. It is a trope for a reason; it works. It really fits the story that a we don't get to see the paladin's Sacred Sword, the Cleric's Spiritual Weapon or the Barbarian's Bear Totem until fighting something bigger and badder than cultists or kobolds. It's the "OH ****" moment of a cult leader half-way done opening the portal to the Nine Hells where these abilities warrant being used.

I am quite invested in this theme, to the point where the players feel near-indestructible at levels 1-2 and mainly go through mini-fights and story up until the first main threat is presented at level 3.

The first 3 levels aren't character advancement, they are character introduction. That's why level the first 2 levels are usually just a single session each (maybe 3 total).
It is actually kinda implied that the character's don't grow until level 4, where they get their ability score increases. They don't get to use new abilities, they literally get stronger/faster/smarter.

This is an excerpt from my houserule document in my signature:


Character Introduction
It might feel that your character gains a lot of iconic abilities over the course of the first 3 levels, even abilities that don’t make any sense gaining overnight or not having from the start. At my table the first 3 levels are more focused on character introduction that character advancement. In most cases, your 3rd abilities are already present, but have yet to be revealed to your allies. Keep this in mind when creating your character; that the tough only gets going when the going gets tough.

The first time your character advances is when it is represented through your ability scores, where your character actually becomes fundamentally stronger, faster or smarter. The same could be said for the following levels after increasing your stats. You have become more powerful and gained a greater sense of purpose, but with increased potential does not come increased effectiveness. For example, a rogue might have become faster at 4th level, but will still need to train to utilize his improved speed to increase his Sneak Attack damage, which doesn’t happen until 5th level.

[Sigreid]

Yes, it bothers me some. Not 3rd in particular though, since many level ups are just as jarring. One thing I actually found more illogical was the Wizards' spontaneous generation of new spells at level up. I mean, a character in a dungeon might level to third in the course of a few days in-game time. They haven't found a single scroll. They haven't had time to study anything, other than maybe changing a spell out during a long rest. Yet they suddenly know new spells, just because? Huh?!?



I personally view a spell book as not a organized recipe book so much as a collection of that particular wizard's observations, notes, theories and such. More like a research scientist's journal with random pieces of information, formulas and diagrams scribbled in the margins and such. So, when a wizard learns a spell from another wizard's spellbook the time and money is what it takes for them to piece it all together and reverse engineer the wizard's magic.

[Chronos]

That's a fascinating idea, Bjarkmundur. Did you come up with that yourself, or borrow it from another DM?

One issue I can think of is if the dice go wrong and something very nearly kills the party at low levels (which is unlikely, but can happen), then you have to explain why they didn't use their full abilities there.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I personally view a spell book as not a organized recipe book so much as a collection of that particular wizard's observations, notes, theories and such. More like a research scientist's journal with random pieces of information, formulas and diagrams scribbled in the margins and such. So, when a wizard learns a spell from another wizard's spellbook the time and money is what it takes for them to piece it all together and reverse engineer the wizard's magic.

That sounds like an excellent way to view it. While it may not fully satisfy the "wizards should read and research for their magic" itch in me, it's far and away better than any other justification I've heard.

[Warped Wiseman]

I have a vague memory of Mike Mearls saying during one of his happy fun hour videos that if he could start 5e over he would make it so that you picked your subclass at level 1. The original justification was classes that choose at level 3 tend to be less distinct among themselves than those that choose at level 1, IE any two bards have more in common with than any two sorcerers.

Personally, I've mostly headcanoned it to be like what Bjarkmundur describes. Later power increases at weird times I generally portray as heroic spirit or resolve (as defined by tvtropes)

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

We definitely not *all* love it. I consider such things stupid and contrived plot device. If you have useful power, you should use it when appropriate and as often as possible, not save it for "dramatic reveal", expecially if it could've been really useful 2 hours (or episodes, or levels) earlier. It's on the level of introducing plot device for one episode, and then forever forgetting it exists, even if there are situations it would be really, really useful.

To each of his own, I guess.

[Sigreid]

I have a vague memory of Mike Mearls saying during one of his happy fun hour videos that if he could start 5e over he would make it so that you picked your subclass at level 1. The original justification was classes that choose at level 3 tend to be less distinct among themselves than those that choose at level 1, IE any two bards have more in common with than any two sorcerers.

Personally, I've mostly headcanoned it to be like what Bjarkmundur describes. Later power increases at weird times I generally portray as heroic spirit or resolve (as defined by tvtropes)

I'd always just assumed the delay was to give new players a little experience with the base class before having to choose a specialization that would last.

[Bjarkmundur]

I'd always just assumed the delay was to give new players a little experience with the base class before having to choose a specialization that would last.

I'm pretty sure this is true 90% of the time. Level 1 is for the players, not for the characters. I mean, I think it's pretty rare that an experienced 5e player dwells longer than single session at level 1. For new groups, however, level 1 can last until everyone has learned their character's abilities and is ready for new features.

A level 1 rogue player that still asks how his sneak attack works is not going to enjoy cunning action, it'll only alienate him even further. Choosing between 5+ different subclasses when you don't even know how short rests work is unfun, so I understand developers leaving the choosing until players have a chance to experience the base features in action.