Help me being a sidekick

[Trandir]

Well good news I get to play an halfling rogue 11, or rogue prestige class, in a party with a cleric 17, sorcerer 17 and ranger 5/ master of many forms 10/ shapeshifting combatant or something along those lines.

I get no magic items nor any equip at all not even the free starting one and I think I would instantly die if I join combat.
What can I do? Probably just rogue skillmonkey but it is always better to double-check

Edit: Most cheese build require some combination of classes and feats and with my master limitations that is impossible. And even in normal conditions even for optimized builds is hard to make up for 6 less levels. So I just want to help OoC (not that I really have any choices). The DM also seems annoyed that a Rogue, that he associates with the thief archetipe, wanted to do the warrior.

Second Edit: I know this DM is a **** with a capital D but I want to give the campaign another chance, just one. So please post any advice about how to create the best npc you can think of. He will not help in fights, will do the skill checks that none of the "true party" got proficiency or skill points for, carries the bags around, is just a dude that get payed to assist them.

Yes it doesn't seem fun not it looks appealing but I think that this is a better "**** You Master" than to try to optimize a rogue.

[GrayDeath]

Take a Template that gives you HIPS, hide, wait out the first 3-5 combats, and then with having gained 3-5 levels, participate.


Or, even better, NOT play a level 11 ROGUE of all things in a HIGH O´Power group? ^^

Less jokingly: Talk to the DM. There is a WBL RUle for a reason, and a clear suggestion in jsut about any edition to not let a level gap above 2 (and I would reduce that to ) exist in any group.

If he doesnt relent, dont play in that group. As its a huge red flag.

[pabelfly]

If I were in a group where I had to start four levels lower than the rest of the party and with no items I'd be bringing some serious cheese to have a somewhat even playing field.

So, what sort of conditions do you have on your character, besides level 11 with level 17 characters? Does it have to be a rogue and/or rogue prestige classes?

[Trandir]

Take a Template that gives you HIPS, hide, wait out the first 3-5 combats, and then with having gained 3-5 levels, participate.


Or, even better, NOT play a level 11 ROGUE of all things in a HIGH O´Power group? ^^

Less jokingly: Talk to the DM. There is a WBL RUle for a reason, and a clear suggestion in jsut about any edition to not let a level gap above 2 (and I would reduce that to ) exist in any group.

If he doesnt relent, dont play in that group. As its a huge red flag.

Well I do not get any template so no hips.

[AnimeTheCat]

Do you get any gear at all? What happened to playing a Bard or similar in the last thread? DM veto that?

If you get gear at all, try to get at least masterwork quality of everything. Since you're behind so far in levels, it may be "worth it" to take fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack and using those bonus feats to pick up Martial Stance and Martial Study feats to fill in utility for yourself. Play a small race, play up your ability to hide as much as possible, and maybe even pick up ranged weapon feats specifically to focus on thrown splash weapons. If you get gear, just nothing magical, pick up tons of various alchemical items that you can use to assist the party in a less damage-oriented way. Don't make yourself a target. Alchemical items, poisons, ranged attacks... you're not going to want to put your 6 levels squishier character in the line of fire in an way.

[Trandir]

Do you get any gear at all? What happened to playing a Bard or similar in the last thread? DM veto that?

If you get gear at all, try to get at least masterwork quality of everything. Since you're behind so far in levels, it may be "worth it" to take fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack and using those bonus feats to pick up Martial Stance and Martial Study feats to fill in utility for yourself. Play a small race, play up your ability to hide as much as possible, and maybe even pick up ranged weapon feats specifically to focus on thrown splash weapons. If you get gear, just nothing magical, pick up tons of various alchemical items that you can use to assist the party in a less damage-oriented way. Don't make yourself a target. Alchemical items, poisons, ranged attacks... you're not going to want to put your 6 levels squishier character in the line of fire in an way.
For the equips as I sayed I get nothing to start but you can't take a naked halfling around so someone will get me something
Yep veto. Now I am a rogue but the alternative class feature of the adventuring roguebstays so i get feats a a fighter+ all the rogue class features (exept sneak attack).

[Trandir]

If I were in a group where I had to start four levels lower than the rest of the party and with no items I'd be bringing some serious cheese to have a somewhat even playing field.

So, what sort of conditions do you have on your character, besides level 11 with level 17 characters? Does it have to be a rogue and/or rogue prestige classes?

Yes, it has to be in theme

[pabelfly]

Yes, it has to be in theme

What about Beguiler? It's a rogue-like base class, but comes with spells and a really good spellcasting system we can abuse to help you.

[Telonius]

Yeah, this gaming group is playing in a very different style than most groups you'll encounter. I'm guessing they've been playing together since around the 80s? The style of gaming you're describing used to be a *lot* more common, particularly back in earlier editions when character generation wasn't nearly as involved or time-consuming. Magic items were rare and amazing. Multiclass existed, but it wasn't as much of a thing as it is now. (I'm seeing two people with 17 levels in a single class and another with a fully-completed prestige class). Now it's much more of a gigantic hassle to roll up a new character, so people want to be able to survive and contribute from the outset. The entire CR system assumes you're equipped with something close to WBL. That kind of Gygaxian "death is cheap" gaming style has fallen out of favor for a lot of gamers. Obviously not the group you're going to be joining. If that 's not what you want out of your gaming experience, I'd recommend finding another group. Trying to get the group to change for you isn't going to happen, and you don't want to be stuck in a group that's no fun for you.

If you're cool with it, I'd recommend doing a bit of ranged sniping for the first few encounters. Putting distance between you and the monster is the easiest way for it to not eat you. You're clearly much less of a threat than the others, so they may ignore you. You will (or at least should) get more XP than the others, since you're that far behind in level.

[pabelfly]

Oh, I remember the rules you had to design your character by. What about...

Rogue 5/Psychic Warrior 2/Telflammar Shadowlord 4 (I'm hoping you're not playing with multiclassing penalties, of course).

Rogue has the two skills we need, spare feats, and we can get sneak attack damage. Psychic Warrior comes with a bonus feat, and the Mantle ACF, we want Freedom Mantle and Dimension Hop for teleport.

Telflammar Shadowlord 4 lets us full attack on a teleport. Then we can full attack again when we teleport as a standard action.

[Particle_Man]

Play an assassin. Offer to take a watch solo. Kill the other pcs in their sleep. Take all their stuff. Profit!

[Trandir]

Oh, I remember the rules you had to design your character by. What about...

Rogue 5/Psychic Warrior 2/Telflammar Shadowlord 4 (I'm hoping you're not playing with multiclassing penalties, of course).

Rogue has the two skills we need, spare feats, and we can get sneak attack damage. Psychic Warrior comes with a bonus feat, and the Mantle ACF, we want Freedom Mantle and Dimension Hop for teleport.

Telflammar Shadowlord 4 lets us full attack on a teleport. Then we can full attack again when we teleport as a standard action.
Yes that would work.
But a difference of 6 levels and lot of other factors puts me so far behind that is difficult to surpass it even with regular rules and some cheesy character building choices. This thread is just a "cry" for help to build basically a NPC. I will not take art in fights if I can avoid them, and even if I am forced to fight I will just hide somewhere. Now I just want to get a setup for OoC since I clearly have no place in it.
The master's advice is Dungeon Delver to give you an idea. That class offers all utility and no punch.

[Calthropstu]

Max out the steal manuever.
Take something valuable from an opponent and do a benny hill/scooby doo stye side combat where you lead an opponent on a chase scene. Work on increasing your movement speed and stealth. You hold off an opponent (or at least decrease its effectiveness) and contribute meaningfully.

[Trandir]

Max out the steal manuever.
Take something valuable from an opponent and do a benny hill/scooby doo stye side combat where you lead an opponent on a chase scene. Work on increasing your movement speed and stealth. You hold off an opponent (or at least decrease its effectiveness) and contribute meaningfully.

I am not sure i can even survive a single AoO from anything a party of 3 level 17 should face. But there are items/feats to use slight of hand and then continue moving? And what are the best ways to inprove movement speed?

[MisterKaws]

You won't take part in fights with that setup. You yourself know that.

But, you know, there are ways to get around that and win in a category you CAN excel in: skill abuse. Forget about ever entering combat. You might even go ahead and take Vow of Poverty and Vow of Nonviolence since you won't have neither money nor combat power. Use those extra feats from Vow of Peace to go even deeper in skill abuse, especially Diplomacy and Bluff. Distribute your Ability Scores with a focus on the three mental stats over all else, and just focus on being the most over-the-top skillmonkey there is.

Go nuts.

[Trandir]

You won't take part in fights with that setup. You yourself know that.

But, you know, there are ways to get around that and win in a category you CAN excel in: skill abuse. Forget about ever entering combat. You might even go ahead and take Vow of Poverty and Vow of Nonviolence since you won't have neither money nor combat power. Use those extra feats from Vow of Peace to go even deeper in skill abuse, especially Diplomacy and Bluff. Distribute your Ability Scores with a focus on the three mental stats over all else, and just focus on being the most over-the-top skillmonkey there is.

Go nuts.

Oh yes the good old vows. Just a question, in your opinion a rogue would ever take a vow of poverty?
But that aside if i were to take all those vows a character would probably stop adventuring and start some sort non violent lifestyle wouldn't he?

[False God]

Why are you playing this character other than you want to? Is your DM requiring you to play this class?

Your only path to be good at anything is to focus on skills, and given the level difference and that you've got a sorc (good for face skills) and a ranger (good for scouting skills) and a cleric (good for knowledge skills) there isn't much room left for you to be good at anything, or better than they are at least.

You don't have magic. You don't have sneak attack. You're 6 levels behind. You're well aware your character won't meaningfully contribute so I guess I'll ask again:

Why are you playing this character?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Being six levels behind with no gear you won't be able to participate in combat. Ask your DM why he's penalizing you to the point that you can't even participate in the game.



Oh yes the good old vows. Just a question, in your opinion a rogue would ever take a vow of poverty?
But that aside if i were to take all those vows a character would probably stop adventuring and start some sort non violent lifestyle wouldn't he?

Go Beguiler instead of Rogue, it gets just as many skills but tons of enchantment and illusion spells. Rogues are more for combat anyway, plus more gear-dependent, and we've already established that you can't participate in combat under the circumstances.

At 11th level you should have 66,000 gp worth of gear. If your DM insists on not letting you start with any gear at all, take Vow of Poverty. Max out your Int score, followed by Con, Dex, and Cha.

Also take Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence, since you won't be doing much damage in combat anyway. The Beguiler spell list works amazingly well with those feats, there's not really going to be any drawbacks for yourself for taking those. Focus on abusing skills, solving noncombat challenges, and using spells to avoid fighting. There are other ways of saving the world than murdering everything that crosses your path, after all, plus it imposes no-save penalties on your party members for finishing off defeated/helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) opponents.

When in combat, use (Greater) Invisibility and hide/move silently to avoid being targeted, and stay back so you won't get hit by area effects (but stay within 120 ft. of your allies so they're penalized by finishing off opponents). Ready an action to cast Silence if an enemy casts a spell with a verbal component, and center it on a point in space that puts opponent is within the area of effect. There's no save and no SR for that, it automatically prevents the opponent from completing the verbal component, and their spell automatically fails but is still spent as though it was cast. Solid Fog is another great no-save hindrance to enemies that don't have Freedom of Movement. Glitterdust is amazing if your save DC is high enough, Hold Monster is good if they fail the save and it renders the target helpless so your allies will be penalized if they coup de grace it.

[AnimeTheCat]

Oh yes the good old vows. Just a question, in your opinion a rogue would ever take a vow of poverty?
But that aside if i were to take all those vows a character would probably stop adventuring and start some sort non violent lifestyle wouldn't he?

well not necessarily. A rogue who has taken a Vow of Poverty would likely be the epitome of a Robin Hood, and could easily be a follower of Garl Glittergold (Good and Trickery domains), Chaav (Good, Chaos, Trickery domains and is Chaotic Good), or perhaps even Estanna (community and protection while being neutral good) and constantly gives back to the same community (maybe where he/she grew up). Regardless, why a character takes on a vow is up to specifically that character, and the class of a character rarely, if ever, determines specific behavior charactaristics of that character (maybe loosely in the form of alignment, or directly in the form of Pyrokineticist burning down a building "just to watch it burn"). Nothing about a rogue states that they have to be greedy, or even thieves. You as the player determines that.

Even if you were to take those vows, why does that mean you MUST stop adventuring? Must you kill or slaughter to adventure? Specifically Vow of Peace (and vow of nonviolence) does not apply to undead, so you could very much make a vow of poverty, vow of nonviolience, vow of peace character that is an absolute undead slayer, but refuses to harm the living (preferring peaceful or non-violent resolutions). Disarm enemies, sunder their equipment, palm their gear, do everything except direct HP or ability damage and you're good. It's just a way of life your character chose, but that doesn't mean you have to lose your drive to adventure, just that you have to do it differently.

[Trandir]

Why are you playing this character other than you want to? Is your DM requiring you to play this class?

Your only path to be good at anything is to focus on skills, and given the level difference and that you've got a sorc (good for face skills) and a ranger (good for scouting skills) and a cleric (good for knowledge skills) there isn't much room left for you to be good at anything, or better than they are at least.

You don't have magic. You don't have sneak attack. You're 6 levels behind. You're well aware your character won't meaningfully contribute so I guess I'll ask again:

Why are you playing this character?

Well it's either this character or nothing apparently. But to answer the question "why are you playing this character?" I have to give the context: Last week my druid died after a 1 and a failed save to take the rope, I melted in a pool of acid, 20d6 acid damage per round, placed in a sewer with AMF, so everyone in the party was ****ing useless.
Since my PC died I got to create a new one with one less level, so 11 from 12, the party got the exp and got to 13 that session. I am doing other things this week and I will play the character the next one. While discussing with the master I sayed that with all the restrictions I'd like to play a rogue, yesterday my PC got introducted as an NPC prisoner with nothing and the master introduced him as a rogue so now I am stucked with it, sidenote apparently something something happened and now the other 3 also got a 0 deity rank from deites and demigods and according to the master still have to do something to activate it but still, oh yes thay also fought a boss and got from lv 13 all the way to 17 so there is that. Since "my" PC was there but got nothing he will stay at 11 and that is written in stone.

To answer the question why do you play with in that group?
Easy there aren't many local D&D groups in my area and even less that would accept or that are even looking for new players and I really want to play.

[Trandir]

The Beguiler spell list works amazingly well with those feats, there's not really going to be any drawbacks for yourself for taking those. Focus on abusing skills, solving noncombat challenges, and using spells to avoid fighting. There are other ways of saving the world than murdering everything that crosses your path, after all, plus it imposes no-save penalties on your party members for finishing off defeated/helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) opponents.

When in combat, use (Greater) Invisibility and hide/move silently to avoid being targeted, and stay back so you won't get hit by area effects (but stay within 120 ft. of your allies so they're penalized by finishing off opponents). Ready an action to cast Silence if an enemy casts a spell with a verbal component, and center it on a point in space that puts opponent is within the area of effect. There's no save and no SR for that, it automatically prevents the opponent from completing the verbal component, and their spell automatically fails but is still spent as though it was cast. Solid Fog is another great no-save hindrance to enemies that don't have Freedom of Movement. Glitterdust is amazing if your save DC is high enough, Hold Monster is good if they fail the save and it renders the target helpless so your allies will be penalized if they coup de grace it.

Yea but that would still be a base class that would take the first level at level 6. Is it still worth it?
And yes he is set on the 0 equip but as I sayed you can't bring along a naked halfling the rest of the party sould get me something

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yea but that would still be a base class that would take the first level at level 6. Is it still worth it?
And yes he is set on the 0 equip but as I sayed you can't bring along a naked halfling the rest of the party sould get me something

Ok I found your other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?594215-3-5-optimisation-but-with-weird-house-rules&p=24066774#post24066774) with all the house rules.

After looking over that, and considering the circumstances your DM insists on starting you under, I'd say just don't play in this DM's game. Find another group to play with, this one's not worth the effort. You're effectively making a sidekick to the rest of the party who's not really going to be able to contribute. Why even bother playing at that point?

[Trandir]

You know what? I a going to cheese what little is possible here: rogue 5/ expert 1/ rogue 5.
The expert is borderline considerable a class but everything is ridiculous so why not?
I take at level 6 both the basic vow and vow of poverty, then the bonus exalted feats will be nymph's kiss and the other vows and the lv 9 feat shadowstalker. This way I still get to be a rogue with all the ****ty limitations but with something.

[Psyren]

To answer the question why do you play with in that group?
Easy there aren't many local D&D groups in my area and even less that would accept or that are even looking for new players and I really want to play.

No gaming is better than bad gaming, stand up for yourself and don't let your DM saddle you with something that's barely playable just so they can get a laugh at your expense. Explain that the game just doesn't work when one member of the party is 6 levels behind everyone else and naked, and that no sane designer would have intended it to be. Explain that this isn't AD&D where generating new characters was as easy as rolling on a bunch of tables.

[Trandir]

No gaming is better than bad gaming, stand up for yourself and don't let your DM saddle you with something that's barely playable just so they can get a laugh at your expense. Explain that the game just doesn't work when one member of the party is 6 levels behind everyone else and naked, and that no sane designer would have intended it to be. Explain that this isn't AD&D where generating new characters was as easy as rolling on a bunch of tables.

Oh don't just kill any enthusiasm I had left.
I still have that joy and wonder to play d&d that only the noobs get

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You know what? I a going to cheese what little is possible here: rogue 5/ expert 1/ rogue 5.
The expert is borderline considerable a class but everything is ridiculous so why not?
I take at level 6 both the basic vow and vow of poverty, then the bonus exalted feats will be nymph's kiss and the other vows and the lv 9 feat shadowstalker. This way I still get to be a rogue with all the ****ty limitations but with something.

Rogue 5/ Beguiler 6 is still probably better, especially with Vow of Peace/Nonviolence. Your save DCs will be boosted, you can cast Glitterdust and Slow, along with Invisibility and the readied action Silence trick. Be sure to take the feats Darkstalker and Practiced Spellcaster, and don't forget you can cast Glibness. Max out Intelligence above all else. A Wizard 5/ Beguiler 1/ Ultimate Magus 5+ would be even better, but you're already set on Rogue.


While I agree that no gaming is better than bad/frustrating/pointless gaming, with spells you'll at least be able to contribute. There are tons of online resources for finding local gaming groups, I think you'll have a lot more fun if you find a better DM to play with.

[Psyren]

Oh don't just kill any enthusiasm I had left.
I still have that joy and wonder to play d&d that only the noobs get

We were all noobs once, but I would never play a character this badly handicapped, that's no excuse.

If you're determined to do this, I agree that something that uses illusions is probably your best bet, at least you can turn invisible if a fight breaks out and hope for the best. Though personally I would just get the character killed off and then go play Switch until they're ready to be adults and let me actually participate in the same game as everyone else.

[Trandir]

While I agree that no gaming is better than bad/frustrating/pointless gaming, with spells you'll at least be able to contribute. There are tons of online resources for finding local gaming groups, I think you'll have a lot more fun if you find a better DM to play with.
Thanks for the class advice but at this point I prefer just to let them see for themselves that this character 6 levels behind is just useless.

About the "find a new DM" where do you think I found this one? When I say that In my area there aren't many I mean it. I already found a 4e DM who was running basically a table version of fire emblem, I don't even remember the names of the other adventurers and there was not a single choice that changed the campaign, and this one. So far I found nothing else so probably only bad DM look for players. That sayed I really want to try

[Psyren]

Thanks for the class advice but at this point I prefer just to let them see for themselves that this character 6 levels behind is just useless.

In that case, nothing will illustrate the point more efficiently than instantly dying, so embrace it :smalltongue:

[Jack_McSnatch]

Thanks for the class advice but at this point I prefer just to let them see for themselves that this character 6 levels behind is just useless.

About the "find a new DM" where do you think I found this one? When I say that In my area there aren't many I mean it. I already found a 4e DM who was running basically a table version of fire emblem, I don't even remember the names of the other adventurers and there was not a single choice that changed the campaign, and this one. So far I found nothing else so probably only bad DM look for players. That sayed I really want to try

Not everybody uses online resources. Most people in my area don't even know there's an online resource for DMs/players. Honestly, you're better off looking and asking around. Most areas have a card shop, a board game shop, or somewhere similarly nerdy. Hell, I found one really good player at the local vape shop.

You're resigned to playing this one game, and that's a HUGE problem not just for you, but for that entire group. You should never be RESIGNED to playing in a game. You really need to talk to this DM, because you're gonna get insta-gibbed by the first thing you run into.

And if that doesn't work, than seriously, it sounds like literally any group would be better, even the 4.0 one. All this game is going to do is sour your opinion of d&d.

Edit; and while I'm at it, the party having to buy you gear is ALSO a **** move. That's their money. They shouldn't have to spend it equipping the character who's 6 levels lower, and is going to die in the first session. This DM needs to retire.

[Calthropstu]

Play a quickling brownie. At 120 base movement, you should be able to steal stuff and get away.

[pabelfly]

What about we crazily optimize a skill to help overcome this lack of gear issue? I'm thinking a full-on Diplomancer-like build. I'm sure you can come up with some ways to get money if you can convince an NPC of just about anything and talk your way just about anywhere.

[Particle_Man]

If you want to be useful in combat, perhaps take a level of bard so that you can at least sing in the back. This could help the ranger, their animal companion, maybe the cleric, and whatever the casters summon.

Another thought is to take as many skill tricks from complete scoundrel as you can, even going for the uncanny trickster prestige class. You will still be mostly useless, but at least you can entertain yourself with the subsystem. And as a rogue you have skill points to spare. Luck feats are another subsystem to play with.

Or you could go for a con job. Not the character, you. Pass notes to the gm that say “please write something down and give this back to me without showing the other players”; “please answer “not yet””; “please look meaningfully at one of the other players, and then at me”. If the DM plays ball this might be entertaining.

Be a conscience of the party (bilbo baggins!). Role play the crap out of suggesting the good thing to do, etc.

[pabelfly]

One more idea - what about maxing out initiative and sneak attack and use a ranged weapon? If you get a flat-footed enemy (easy for ranged) every attack you make gets sneak attack damage and you can get a lot of attacks if you want via feats.

[MisterKaws]

One more idea - what about maxing out initiative and sneak attack and use a ranged weapon? If you get a flat-footed enemy (easy for ranged) every attack you make gets sneak attack damage and you can get a lot of attacks if you want via feats.

With 0 WBL and six levels behind in BAB? Would only hit on a natural 20 for sure.

[Trandir]

If you want to be useful in combat, perhaps take a level of bard so that you can at least sing in the back. This could help the ranger, their animal companion, maybe the cleric, and whatever the casters summon.

Another thought is to take as many skill tricks from complete scoundrel as you can, even going for the uncanny trickster prestige class. You will still be mostly useless, but at least you can entertain yourself with the subsystem. And as a rogue you have skill points to spare. Luck feats are another subsystem to play with.

Or you could go for a con job. Not the character, you. Pass notes to the gm that say “please write something down and give this back to me without showing the other players”; “please answer “not yet””; “please look meaningfully at one of the other players, and then at me”. If the DM plays ball this might be entertaining.

Be a conscience of the party (bilbo baggins!). Role play the crap out of suggesting the good thing to do, etc.

This could be interesting any advice on what skill tricks take?



One more idea - what about maxing out initiative and sneak attack and use a ranged weapon? If you get a flat-footed enemy (easy for ranged) every attack you make gets sneak attack damage and you can get a lot of attacks if you want via feats.

Well even if I do that a level 19 rogue gets just 10d6 worth of sneak attack and that would not kill even most CR 10 monsters.

Oh and also I will pump sleight of hand as much as I can and so diplomacy. A rogue got to eat somehow right?

[AnimeTheCat]

I just had another idea, you could take Rogue to level 5 and then transition over to Incarnate for the remaining levels and augment your skills with Solmelds. Really dig deep in to that skillmonkey vibe AND it helps your lack of magic items as you kinda just get to make your own. There are lots of good soulmelds that you can tailor for your unique situation, and as you get magic items you can just not bind that particular soulmeld. Some ones that I like, for rogues or any non-magical class in general, are Apparition Ribbon, Bluesteel Bracers, Crystal Helm (Bound), Enigma Helm (Bound), Fellmist Robe, Spellward Shirt (Spell Resistance is never a bad thing), Strongheart Vest, Vitality Belt (Waist Bind - Immune to Con damage and drain!!!), Wind Cloak (basically poor man's wind wall).

Some rogue specific ones that I like are Keeneye leses (brow bind for see invis), Lucky Dice (no downside, only upsides), Mage's Spectacles (Decipher Script, Spellcraft, UMD bonuses), Necrocarnum Circlet (only with Crown bind, get a beefy Necrocarnum Zombie pet/Flanking budy), Necrocarnum Shroud, Shadow Mantle (listen check bonuses and the later shoulder bind is awesome for a rogue), Sighting Gloves (for ranged rogues... they're ok. The hand bind removes your need for precise shot), Silvertongue Mask (Diplomacy and bluff, sense motive with Brow Bind, suggestion at-will with throat bind), Soulspark Familiar (ever present flanking buddy), Theft Gloves (disable dvice, open lock, sleight of hand bonuses), Truthseeker Goggles (Gather Information, Search, and Sense Motive bonuses).

All of those melds are JUST the useful ones from Incarnate. There are a couple (literally two I think) soulborn only ones that are neat and a whole bunch of Totemist ones that are worthwhile, I just think that Incarnate pairs better with Rogue than Totemist if you're goal is to be skillful.

You could also not take Incarnate, and just pick up a feat like Midnight Dodge to get an essentia pool of 1 (you would have to do this at level 6), and then start taking levels of Umbral Disciple until level 3. At level 3 you have the Embrace of Shadow class feature and 3 points of essentia so you can have 20% miss chance and Hide in Plain Sight (HIPS) at level 9. At level 12, you can improve this to 30% miss chance. Either way, You can have HIPS as this character to keep yourself safe, even if you completely stop progressing in Umbral Disciple at this point, though Sight of the Eyeless (level 7) gets you Bindsight 10 ft/essential invested, so that's pretty freaking good too. Plus, at level 7 you can have 20% concealment, HIPS, AND have 30 ft blindsight active all at once. Not bad IMO. Lastly, Kiss of the shadows is pretty awesome, especially since you're a little behind the strength curb. It will let you flank from outside of range of some enemies, especially those without reach, but maybe some with depending on how much Essentia you invest in it. You can't use the ability to make Attacks of Opportunity, but it's still useful for keeping out of danger while flaking. Umbral Disciple is SUPER in theme for Rogue too, so you don't have to worry about the DM going "It doesn't fit the theme!" The last line of the first paragraph says "Monks, Rogues, and Rangers can meet these requirements easily..." and the First line says "First and Foremost, an umbral disciple needs the ability to hide will..." which is exactly what rogues do.

The more I think about it, the more I think you would really benefit from a dive into the magic of incarnum book. It's a great resource. Play a small race (gnome is good for incarnum, get that Con bonus) Rogue 5/Incarnate 1/Umbral Disciple 5 or Rogue 6/Umbral Disciple 5, and don't worry about taking Fighter Bonus Feats on the rogue, stick to Sneak Attacks and Two Weapon Fighting or Ranged combat (with HIPS). You'll be able to use your SA pretty much every other round pretty easily and you'll have 20% miss chance which is better than AC in a lot of cases (especially when you're fighting against overwhelmingly strong opponents).

[Particle_Man]

This could be interesting any advice on what skill tricks to take?

Hidden Blade if you can convince your dm that you could have had a concealed magical weapon despite being naked. Don’t ask too many questions as to where.:smallsmile:

Listen to This might give you an interesting social niche.

Mosquito’s Bite could let you do damage and avoid becoming a target for doing damage.

Shrouded Dance can give you a little protection if an enemy really focuses on you.

Spot the Weak Point can give you a touch attack.

[MisterKaws]

Snip

This. All of this.

Also, get Vow of Poverty at first level ASAP unless your DM wants to shank you that much. That feat gives more benefits the faster you take it.

[Trandir]

Hidden Blade if you can convince your dm that you could have had a concealed magical weapon despite being naked. Don’t ask too many questions as to where.:smallsmile:

Listen to This might give you an interesting social niche.

Mosquito’s Bite could let you do damage and avoid becoming a target for doing damage.

Shrouded Dance can give you a little protection if an enemy really focuses on you.

Spot the Weak Point can give you a touch attack.

Thanks for the advice but probably OoC or defensive tricks would be better for a PC that is not suited for combat right?

This. All of this.

Also, get Vow of Poverty at first level ASAP unless your DM wants to shank you that much. That feat gives more benefits the faster you take it.

Already asked and his answer was: if you can take it after level 5 i do not see why you should take it before. And also you are not considering a detail: a level 11 PC will die either naked or with vow of poverty if i get targeted. So it's better to take some chances, if the rogue survives I get to buy some decent gear, if I dye I demonstrate that "6 less levels do not change that much for a rogue" is bull **** and I get to build a new PC and hopefull at a higher level.
It's a win in both cases.

[MisterKaws]

Thanks for the advice but probably OoC or defensive tricks would be better for a PC that is not suited for combat right?


Already asked and his answer was: if you can take it after level 5 i do not see why you should take it before. And also you are not considering a detail: a level 11 PC will die either naked or with vow of poverty if i get targeted. So it's better to take some chances, if the rogue survives I get to buy some decent gear, if I dye I demonstrate that "6 less levels do not change that much for a rogue" is bull **** and I get to build a new PC and hopefull at a higher level.
It's a win in both cases.

Yes, I guess your DM just wants to torment you.

If you want to play in that dumpster fire, your choice. I won't recommend it.

[False God]

To answer the question why do you play with in that group?
Easy there aren't many local D&D groups in my area and even less that would accept or that are even looking for new players and I really want to play.

I get that, I do. But to be blunt, you're not playing now. You may look like you're playing. You may feel like you're playing. But you're not actually playing.

If you want to kick around with this group and not give a duck on meaningfully participating in the game with everyone else, great. Grab a beer, kick your feet up and roll a d20 once in a while.

Because I don't know what you're doing with this group, because you're not playing with them and they're not playing with you.

[Trandir]

Yes if I survive and do not get at least 3-4 levels and enough gold/equip to buy an item for every body slot I will quit.
If I dye and the DM expects to play a level 11 in a lv 18 party with again no gear I will quit.
I have done just 2 sessions with this group so giving them a chance doesn't sound unreasonable does it?

[MisterKaws]

Yes if I survive and do bot get at least 3-4 levels and enough gold/equip to buy an item for every body slot I will quit.
If I dye and the DM expects to play a level 11 in a lv 18 party with again no gear I will quit.
I have done just 2 sessions with this group so giving them a chance doesn't sound unreasonable does it?

Dunno, I'd have gotten up and gone past the doorway the moment he started with the: "Okay, so you guys are now all level 17 and half-deities... except you, new guy. You're level 11, broke, naked, no divine rank. Also you can't get any race other than human and get to be the only one doing a mundane class on a group of full casters."

[Trandir]

Dunno, I'd have gotten up and gone past the doorway the moment he started with the: "Okay, so you guys are now all level 17 and half-deities... except you, new guy. You're level 11, broke, naked, no divine rank. Also you can't get any race other than human and get to be the only one doing a mundane class on a group of full casters."

Yep as I sayed if I do not get something decent I will get the heck out of there. Also I get to be halfling not human but that's not the point here

[MisterKaws]

Yep as I sayed if I do not get something decent I will get the heck out of there. Also I get to be halfling not human but that's not the point here

Push for Strongheart Halfling instead.

No, but seriously, we already said all we can help. If you're so desperate to get into a table, even a Roll20 one seems like a better idea. If your current table doesn't improve by the 20th, bail out.

[pabelfly]

Yes if I survive and do bot get at least 3-4 levels and enough gold/equip to buy an item for every body slot I will quit.

If that's your hope, I'd go as whatever character you want to play as that works within the restraints you've been given, and not necessarily something you think is likely to survive (I'd still make CON your preferred stat and see if there was anything you could do to boost that stat)

In any case, best of luck with your game. Interested to know how it turns out.

[Particle_Man]

Oh and when all else fails, anyone can use the aid another action.

[Trandir]

If that's your hope, I'd go as whatever character you want to play as that works within the restraints you've been given, and not necessarily something you think is likely to survive (I'd still make CON your preferred stat and see if there was anything you could do to boost that stat)

In any case, best of luck with your game. Interested to know how it turns out.

Nope to quote the master "a rogue needs dexterity" I got as stats 18 14 13 12 12 10 and 2 increments so i'll put the 13 to con and improve it to 14 (con is retroactive? In this table it is) but the 18 goes to dex, and the total 11 dex better be enough to deal with level 17 monsters or I will litterally get one shotted by anything. And I will be sure to update this thread whatever will happen.


Push for Strongheart Halfling instead.

No, but seriously, we already said all we can help. If you're so desperate to get into a table, even a Roll20 one seems like a better idea. If your current table doesn't improve by the 20th, bail out.

Yea if this table fails I'll try Roll20, but I will not wait the 20th the next session is the last hope to redeem this hellscape. And for the strongheart the master also clearly stated that subraces are not aviable.

I am now also considering to take feats to increase the max carry weight to better embrace the role of "thing that follows the adventurers". I have never seen anything like that but I assume they do exist.

So now to return to the true beginning of the thread:

How do I build a character whose only purpose will be to use some skills, carry around bags and beg for money from the "divine heroes"?

[AnimeTheCat]

If your base class is still open at all?, maybe try barbarian 5/totemist 6?

Just because your DM is restricting you heavily does not mean you have to throw in the "oh well" towel. Play the best you can and challenge yourself within the confines of what you've been given. A Vow of Poverty Barbarian 5/totemist 2/Totem Rager 4 could be quite powerful in the absence of magic items, and it's a solid try and can be fun so why not try to have the most fun you can right?

[Clementx]

How do I build a character whose only purpose will be to use some skills, carry around bags and beg for money from the "divine heroes"?
Hand the sheet to the DM and say, "You dropped this npc hireling. So, when does my lvl16 character with divine rank zero like everyone else show up?"

[Trandir]

Hand the sheet to the DM and say, "You dropped this npc hireling. So, when does my lvl16 character with divine rank zero like everyone else show up?"

I like that idea very much but I think that building the absolute trash he expects me to play and then show the others that it is in fact trash is a better idea. If he wanted me to "play with the cool kids" I probably wouldn't even complain here. But I want to see if the other players have the guts to say that this is ok, normal or "balanced" in my face if i do exactly what he sayed.
Then there would be 3 possible outcomes: first the PC dies and I get to play one in line with the others, second some weird event happen and I get to the level of the rest of the party, third I quit and accuse the DM of being an ass hole and unresonable for no good reason.
In any case I'll consider myself satisfied

[pabelfly]

Normally a rogue would pump dex, but you're rather underlevelled. Every two points of CON is another 11HP for what will be a squishy character. I'd even think about taking Improved Toughness.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hang on, you're a newcomer to an existing group, and the DM puts these arbitrary limitations on you that.... basically looks like he's passive-aggressively asking you to go away? Seriously, I would consider whether this group even wants you joining if I were in the same circumstances. Maybe that's something you should ask them about before you invest anything more into this?

[Psyren]

I like that idea very much but I think that building the absolute trash he expects me to play and then show the others that it is in fact trash is a better idea.

I'm still confused, you don't have to "build" trash to prove it is trash. Roll all your feats randomly, charge into battle and get one-shot - it's a lot less work for both you and us.

[Trandir]

I'm still confused, you don't have to "build" trash to prove it is trash. Roll all your feats randomly, charge into battle and get one-shot - it's a lot less work for both you and us.

I do not get this, if the DM tell me to build trash I hope that he is just dumb enough to think that it us actually good and so if I build it and actually prove that is in fact trash maybe he will get the memo. If not he is doing this on purpose and as I sayed before I'll get the heck out.
Randomly creating the PC while is a good idea, fast and doesn't waste anyone time, it might put the blame on me and that is not gonna happen.

[Rynjin]

As a wise man once said "Ya got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run".

This is the time for that last one. You're basically sticking around just to try and mildly annoy someone who clearly doesn't give a **** whether you play or not. Is it really worth your time? Does your free time really mean that little to you? Is there really nothing you could be better spending your time doing?

I doubt it. Tell the GM to eat your sack and bail out of this trainwreck, for all our sanities.

[Psyren]

I do not get this, if the DM tell me to build trash I hope that he is just dumb enough to think that it us actually good and so if I build it and actually prove that is in fact trash maybe he will get the memo. If not he is doing this on purpose and as I sayed before I'll get the heck out.
Randomly creating the PC while is a good idea, fast and doesn't waste anyone time, it might put the blame on me and that is not gonna happen.

If they're the kind of folks who would blame you for failing even after giving you a T4 class, 0 WBL and a 6-level handicap behind the rest of the party, then in all honesty nothing you do is going to make them respect you. It's your time to waste though.

[AnimeTheCat]

If they're the kind of folks who would blame you for failing even after giving you a T4 class, 0 WBL and a 6-level handicap behind the rest of the party, then in all honesty nothing you do is going to make them respect you. It's your time to waste though.

and this is why I was saying at least try something that you will enjoy regardless of what the DM is limiting you with. Stay within his rules, but build something you think will be fun. I doubt that the DM is saying that you MUST stay rogue until level 11, you said that anything after 5 was fine as long as it is thematically consistent. Barbarian/Totemist/Totem Rager or Rogue/Incarnate or Rogue/Umbral Disciple or Rogue/Incarnate/Umbral Disciple are all thematically consistent and probably way more fun that Rogue 11 (more options for me typically = more fun, but not always).

If you want to relegate yourself to being the little packmule who can't, that's only on you. If you want to put together something that's fun and interesting and then the party uses you like a packmule, that's entirely on the party. If you build something fun and interesting within the DM's rules and then the DM takes your character sheet and gives you a rogue 11 one, that's entirely on the DM. Those aren't the only outcomes though, there's also the outcome that you put together something fun and interesting and then the DM quickly integrates you into the group with powerful, useful, and good equipment to help mitigate the power gap that exists. in the event where that outcome occurs, wouldn't you rather it occur to a character you actually want to play, rather than something trashy that you cobbled together out of frustration?

What I'm saying is don't give up on having fun. You get out of it what you put in to it. Give the solid try to enjoy yourself with the character that you want within the restrictions you've been given and if after that it doesn't work out, then make your decision to leave. Don't make your decision before you even sit at the table with this character. Maybe this DM has a plan that is really awesome and just doesn't want you to suspect anything or let you in on the secret. Give it time and give it a chance.

EDIT: It's your time to waste, so why waste it on something you probably won't enjoy. Waste it on something you will enjoy so that if things work out well, you get to actually enjoy it rather than regret it.

Sorry Psyren, this isn't your thread and I know that, you just spurred me to think about this so I quoted you.

[Psyren]

Sorry Psyren, this isn't your thread and I know that, you just spurred me to think about this so I quoted you.

No worries, I pretty much said my piece on this topic anyway.

[Telonius]

third I quit and accuse the DM of being an ass hole and unresonable for no good reason.
In any case I'll consider myself satisfied

Yeah, that last one is probably the most likely - but just a word of advice, don't actually call him nasty stuff in the moment. It's not going to accomplish anything, and there are several worst-cases that could happen. Just tell them it's not working out, and leave. If you want vengeance or validation, come back here with the story of how ridiculous the session was, and the Boards will do the namecalling for you. :smallbiggrin: