Smiting Warlock: Worth the slots?

[Nagog]

I have heard tales on the forums here of Hexblades using the Paladin Smite spells they get to good effect, but I'm questioning whether or not those smites are worth the spell slots, considering how few Warlocks get and the plethora of other spells they could spend them on (Hex and Armor of Agathys in particular). Are such things only really applicable with Sorlock, and if so, what's the ruling on casting Warlock spells with other class spell slots?

[Vogie]

I have heard tales on the forums here of Hexblades using the Paladin Smite spells they get to good effect, but I'm questioning whether or not those smites are worth the spell slots, considering how few Warlocks get and the plethora of other spells they could spend them on (Hex and Armor of Agathys in particular). Are such things only really applicable with Sorlock, and if so, what's the ruling on casting Warlock spells with other class spell slots?

You can use either your spellcasting slots or your pact magic slots to cast spells you know.

Hex requires casting prior to hitting, while smiting is an option available after hitting. It also is more powerful when you're dual wielding or using Eldritch Blast, as it is based on hits rather than damage. AoA is great, until you take too much damage and it turns off, or use other resources like Darkness, Shadows of Moil, or Rage, to stretch out the THP.

The main thing that lock+ MCs do is use the Short Rest slots for the various smites, while keeping the long rest slots for actual spells.

Eldritch Smites, as opposed to paladin ones, also have the ability to knock a target prone with no save. If used on a ranged weapon, it can knock a flying target out of the sky, but it's mostly used to grant yourself & your party advantage on other hits from that point.

[Sigreid]

I've looked at the paladin spell list and I'm not convinced using their slots for smites is often their best choice.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Of the spells the hexblades get, im less impressed the smite ones. If i was gonna smite as a hexblade id use the invocation, which is always fun to use imo.

I maybe early levels before grabbing Eldritch smite you might cast a wrathful smite. after 5 I would rather cast elemental weapon or blink or blur or just Eldritch smite.

[lperkins2]

The one smite spell that is actually useful is Thunderous Smite, since it knocks the target back and prone. Great for keeping enemies inside the AoE of a painful spell.

Since hexblades don't get that one, I'm gonna say no, the smite spells aren't worth much.

[DracoKnight]

The one smite spell that is actually useful is Thunderous Smite, since it knocks the target back and prone. Great for keeping enemies inside the AoE of a painful spell.

Since hexblades don't get that one, I'm gonna say no, the smite spells aren't worth much.

Even if they DID get thunderous smite, it wouldn't be worth it, since it's one of the Smites that doesn't scale with higher level slots. So you'd be spending a 5th level slot on a 1st level effect.

[Mjolnirbear]

I don't even use Smite spells on a paladin. I only use Divine Smite on crits. Spell slots are a precious precious resource.

In my opinion, not worth it in the slightest. You only have two slots most of your career and using it for something so mundane and easily achieved as advantage isn't even worth the invocation slot.

[Nhorianscum]

Wrathful smite and banishing smite are both extremely strong spells.

Wrathful wants lower level slots to remain viable past 5th level.

[lperkins2]

Even if they DID get thunderous smite, it wouldn't be worth it, since it's one of the Smites that doesn't scale with higher level slots. So you'd be spending a 5th level slot on a 1st level effect.

That's a fair point, but if you are getting a higher level AoE spell to proc an extra time, plus if you can hit them with booming blade to further penalize them leaving the AoE on their turn, it stays viable a ways past when other non-scaling level 1 spells drop off. Since warlocks get to exchange spells, and the OP didn't specify a level for the inquiry, I'd say it'd be decent till level 5 at least, depending on party composition, maybe as far as level 9.

[DracoKnight]

That's a fair point, but if you are getting a higher level AoE spell to proc an extra time, plus if you can hit them with booming blade to further penalize them leaving the AoE on their turn, it stays viable a ways past when other non-scaling level 1 spells drop off. Since warlocks get to exchange spells, and the OP didn't specify a level for the inquiry, I'd say it'd be decent till level 5 at least, depending on party composition, maybe as far as level 9.

I definitely wouldn't keep it after 5. Eldritch Smite drops them prone with no save, deals scaling force damage, and doesn't take concentration.

[lperkins2]

I definitely wouldn't keep it after 5. Eldritch Smite drops them prone with no save, deals scaling force damage, and doesn't take concentration.

True, and if your party benefits mostly from the prone effect that's great, especially since you basically can't miss with it. When I was running around with eldritch smite, it was the knockback effect that was so nice. At low levels, the other warlock would toss up Arms of Hadar, at higher levels the wizard used Black tentacles. Both create difficult terrain. I'd stand at the edge of the field with a smite spell going and ready booming blade, if anyone stepped up next to me, I'd smite them back into the field. Assuming you're dealing with creatures with 30' movement, it just works out badly for them. On round one, the spell goes up, with them 3 squares in. They use 20' of movement to get to the edge of the field, where I'm waiting. If I hit, and they fail the save, they end up back where they started, prone, without enough movement to get back to their feet. They can crawl, but the difficult terrain limits their movement to 3'. And next round, they take 15' to stand, which doesn't let them clear the field in a single turn.

With Black tentacles, I actually stood back 5' from the edge, so that they would proc the spell on the enemy's turn, then of the enemies that made it to the near side of the field, I'd pick the best target, and knock them back in. Since they entered on my turn, they immediately get to make another save or eat an extra 3d6 damage, and then again on their next turn. At this point, the other warlock in the party was using repelling blast to similar effect, and anyone trying to get out the far side the druid was pulling back with thorn whip.

Since repelling blast exists, it would probably have strictly been superior to have both warlocks running the agonizing+repelling blaster route, but that's true pretty much no matter what sort of warlock you're playing.

[DracoKnight]

Since repelling blast exists, it would probably have strictly been superior to have both warlocks running the agonizing+repelling blaster route, but that's true pretty much no matter what sort of warlock you're playing.

Up to 40' of pushback is definitely a way to screw with your enemies.

[lperkins2]

Up to 40' of pushback is definitely a way to screw with your enemies.

I believe there's a SA running around saying that targeting multiple beams on a single foe doesn't stack, but most of the time you're just as happy to push multiple foes into the hellswarm/off the cliff. And, if your DM does let you push a target 40', on account of each beam taking its own attack roll, you can basically keep anything with less than 40' movement at bay forever.

[DracoKnight]

I believe there's a SA running around saying that targeting multiple beams on a single foe doesn't stack, but most of the time you're just as happy to push multiple foes into the hellswarm/off the cliff. And, if your DM does let you push a target 40', on account of each beam taking its own attack roll, you can basically keep anything with less than 40' movement at bay forever.

There are other invocations that are limited to 1/turn (such as Lance of Lethargy or Grasp of Hadar). Repelling Blast is not one of them.

[Sigreid]

I believe there's a SA running around saying that targeting multiple beams on a single foe doesn't stack, but most of the time you're just as happy to push multiple foes into the hellswarm/off the cliff. And, if your DM does let you push a target 40', on account of each beam taking its own attack roll, you can basically keep anything with less than 40' movement at bay forever.

Provided you hit consistently.

[Snowbluff]

I definitely wouldn't keep it after 5. Eldritch Smite drops them prone with no save, deals scaling force damage, and doesn't take concentration.

For half of your career, you just spent half of what could very well be your daily allotment of spells in most mods, for 27.5 damage and a prone (an effect that's good for half of your party but not the other half). Fireball does 28 without scaling. What's a concentration if you have no slots left that combat? Even being generous and saying you're going 3 encounters between short rests, that's still only ~1 slot per fight. Heck, Hexblades get the shield spell. Is anyone content with using their maxed out slot on a spell castable at level one?

I would be more kind to warlock if their slots worked more traditionally. A paladin can save their smites for however many crits they have in a day and still have room leftover for their itty bitty spells, on top of having powerful abilities like Aura of Protection. However, I think the smiting spells are underrated for both Paladin and Warlock. After all, on top of doing your normal attack sequence you can also force a save with a bonus action, which is a nice contribution if your party wailing on boss, even if you just eat up their LR quicker.

Ironically, one of Warlock's best spells, Armor of Agathys, is arguably better if you can upcast it past 5, something a warlock can't do. Combinations like planar binding demons with the fiend summoning spells just don't work as well, either, but this is getting off topic.

[Tanarii]

There are other invocations that are limited to 1/turn (such as Lance of Lethargy or Grasp of Hadar). Repelling Blast is not one of them.
Unlike previous editions, they decided they will not issue errata to "fix" broken already existing rules. They just issue new things that show you what the new standard is, and expect DMs to read between the lines and house-rule.

[jdolch]

Unlike previous editions, they decided they will not issue errata to "fix" broken already existing rules. They just issue new things that show you what the new standard is, and expect DMs to read between the lines and house-rule.

I honestly can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.

[Snowbluff]

Unlike previous editions, they decided they will not issue errata to "fix" broken already existing rules. They just issue new things that show you what the new standard is, and expect DMs to read between the lines and house-rule.

Can you clarify which way you mean this applies to grasp of hadar/lance of lethargy/etc?

Also, they do issue errata. (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf)

[Mortis_Elrod]

For half of your career, you just spent half of what could very well be your daily allotment of spells in most mods, for 27.5 damage and a prone (an effect that's good for half of your party but not the other half). Fireball does 28 without scaling. What's a concentration if you have no slots left that combat? Even being generous and saying you're going 3 encounters between short rests, that's still only ~1 slot per fight. Heck, Hexblades get the shield spell. Is anyone content with using their maxed out slot on a spell castable at level one?

I would be more kind to warlock if their slots worked more traditionally. A paladin can save their smites for however many crits they have in a day and still have room leftover for their itty bitty spells, on top of having powerful abilities like Aura of Protection. However, I think the smiting spells are underrated for both Paladin and Warlock. After all, on top of doing your normal attack sequence you can also force a save with a bonus action, which is a nice contribution if your party wailing on boss, even if you just eat up their LR quicker.

Ironically, one of Warlock's best spells, Armor of Agathys, is arguably better if you can upcast it past 5, something a warlock can't do. Combinations like planar binding demons with the fiend summoning spells just don't work as well, either, but this is getting off topic.

Better damage type, scaling, critting single target fireball sounds perfectly fine use of a spell slot, especially when someone else can handle aoe.

The great thing about Eldritch Smite that people often forget is that you dont have to make them prone unless you want to, and just having it doesn't mean you have to use it .

Not to mention only one type of warlock has fireball and thats Fiend patron. If you're a hexblade you're not fireballing anyway.

And if you dont like the invocation trade it out next level.

[Snowbluff]

Better damage type, scaling, critting single target fireball sounds perfectly fine use of a spell slot, especially when someone else can handle aoe. For everyone's edification, fireball scales better. It does 35 damage at 5th level slot. 28 damage was for the base slot. Even if 2 people resist it, you've still done damage with a basic but fireball for the slot, so typing's a wash.

You are right that it's a Fiendlock only spell, but that's more of a problem with Warlock in general, know as "we took out basic, obvious warlock spells from their regular lists because we couldn't think of better ones to make pact spells, because we didn't give all warlocks pact spells as automatically prepared/known spells like cleric."

Invocations are just another thing competing against Eldritch Smite. I was being kind when only discussing how disappointing it is to eat a very limited resource, rather than discussing the rest of the opportunity costs.

[RSP]

I have heard tales on the forums here of Hexblades using the Paladin Smite spells they get to good effect, but I'm questioning whether or not those smites are worth the spell slots, considering how few Warlocks get and the plethora of other spells they could spend them on (Hex and Armor of Agathys in particular). Are such things only really applicable with Sorlock, and if so, what's the ruling on casting Warlock spells with other class spell slots?

I don’t think there’s a good reason to pick any of the smite spells as spells known, much less to use them. There’s probably always a better use of the spell slot, though I guess the best argument for them would be at low levels where there’s less high level competition with other spells, and more chance that using a smite will one-shot an enemy. The fact that these spells use Concentration really makes them unusable.

As for Eldritch Smite, I think it could be useful, and more importantly fun, but probably isn’t a great use of a slot until level 11 when you get your 3rd Pact Magic slot.

Hexblades will like the bonus damage coupled with their increased chances to crit.

Ultimately, it’s probably a subpar or niche use of a slot; having Hex up all day is probably a better overall use of a slot for damage and AoA is great for added survivability and damage output. Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Shadow of Moil, Sickening Radiance and Synaptic Static are all way better combat uses of a spell slot than Smiting; unless fighting a single BBEG or on a crit to take down a heavy hitter (though arguably using one of the above spells in lieu of, or prior to, rolling the crit attack would be seen as a more effective option still).

It’s similar to a level 5+ Warlock having a slot to cast Shield: sure it’s nice to avoid an attack, but that slot could have done plenty more had it been used more effectively, possibly even preventing the attack from being made or hitting anyway (such as from the Disadvantage imposed on attacks from SoM).

[Tanarii]

I honestly can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.Nope. Or at least mostly not. IiRC they did state early on they don't ever plan to make changes via errata to change abilities for balance purposes. Just to fix things that are very unclear, mostly due to mistakes. And they've mostly stuck to that.

The rest is just surmise, maybe with a touch of subconscious sarcasm. Based on things I see in UA, and discussion around the Ranger revisions. Or XtGE releases, like ranger bonus spells for the subclasses.

[RSP]

Nope. Or at least mostly not. IiRC they did state early on they don't ever plan to make changes via errata to change abilities for balance purposes. Just to fix things that are very unclear, mostly due to mistakes. And they've mostly stuck to that.


I agree they’ve said this, however, they undermined their “errata is only to clarify our intent, not to fix things” when they changed the long rest rules and Elven Trance.

[Snowbluff]

I agree they’ve said this, however, they undermined their “errata is only to clarify our intent, not to fix things” when they changed the long rest rules and Elven Trance.
Also they changed the two handed weapon fighting style, since it wasn't intended to work with bonus damage dice, when it did by RAW.

[JackPhoenix]

I agree they’ve said this, however, they undermined their “errata is only to clarify our intent, not to fix things” when they changed the long rest rules and Elven Trance.

You mean the thing they never did? There's no errata about Elven Trance, and there's no change in long rest rules, they only spelled out that "8 hours long period, consisting of sleep and up to 2 hours of light activity" means "8 hours long period, consisting of at least 6 hours of sleep and up to 2 hours of light activity", because apparently some people didn't understand that 8=6+2.

[Tanarii]

I agree they’ve said this, however, they undermined their “errata is only to clarify our intent, not to fix things” when they changed the long rest rules and Elven Trance.
They fixed the long rest rules language.

Elf Trance was an SA, and it did indeed change, but they've never claimed they won't update SA, which is RAI. In fact, this is the second one I can think of that has been updated, the other being how Bonus Action timing works. (To be clear, the EK War Magic ruling was changed. Shield Master was only added with the newest version of RAI on bonus action timing.).


Also they changed the two handed weapon fighting style, since it wasn't intended to work with bonus damage dice, when it did by RAW.
Again not an errata.

Edit: to be further clear, the purpose of errata, specifically, not changing the rules significantly and for balNce purposes is stated to be to keep the physical PHB evergreen. SA is for geeks into the game enough to look up additional developer advice, and they can update that online if their views change.

[RSP]

They fixed the long rest rules language.

Elf Trance was an SA, and it did indeed change, but they've never claimed they won't update SA, which is RAI. In fact, this is the second one I can think of that has been updated, the other being how Bonus Action timing works. (To be clear, the EK War Magic ruling was changed. Shield Master was only added with the newest version of RAI on bonus action timing.).


They stated the RAI was for elves to still require 8 hours for a long rest. Then the errata changed the wording of LRs so that now elves only require 4 hours for a LR.

If they’re only using errata to correct language so the RAW better reflects RAI (as they’ve stated is what errata will be used for), then they should have had the errata back up that elves require 8 hours for a LR, as they’ve clearly stated that as the RAI. But they didn’t do that, and instead used an errata to change the RAW and the RAI, thereby undermining the idea of what they stated they wanted errata to be.

[DracoKnight]

the EK War Magic ruling was changed

Wait, what changed about War Magic??

[JackPhoenix]

They stated the RAI was for elves to still require 8 hours for a long rest. Then the errata changed the wording of LRs so that now elves only require 4 hours for a LR.

If they’re only using errata to correct language so the RAW better reflects RAI (as they’ve stated is what errata will be used for), then they should have had the errata back up that elves require 8 hours for a LR, as they’ve clearly stated that as the RAI. But they didn’t do that, and instead used an errata to change the RAW and the RAI, thereby undermining the idea of what they stated they wanted errata to be.

The errata didn't change anything in RAW or RAI. Long rest always was 8 hours consisting of sleep and up to 2 hours of light activity. After errata, it's still 8 hours consisting of sleep and up to 2 hours of light activity, only now it explains that 8 hours of LR minus 2 hours of light activity leaves you with 6 hours you'll need to spend sleeping. Apparently, someone had trouble making that calculation. It's just slight change in wording, but nothing substantial has actually changed.

RAW, elves still need 8 hours for LR, only their 8 hours don't need to be 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of light activity, but 4 hours of meditation, 2 hours of light activity, and 2 hours of, I dunno, staring into the wall. They get the same benefit from 4 hours of rest as human gets from 8 hours of sleep, but 8 hours of sleep in itself doesn't give any benefit.

[Tanarii]

Wait, what changed about War Magic??
Originally the War Magic SA said the bonus action attack could come in any order, before or after the cantrip.

Everyone always focused on the Shield Master Tweets, but the only actually Sage Advice Compendium (and thus 'official' developer RAI) on the matter originally was about War Magic. Not Shield Master.

[DracoKnight]

Originally the War Magic SA said the bonus action attack could come in any order, before or after the cantrip.

Everyone always focused on the Shield Master Tweets, but the only actually Sage Advice Compendium (and thus 'official' developer RAI) on the matter originally was about War Magic. Not Shield Master.

That's bizarre to me that that's the RAI on War Magic, since it says "when you cast a cantrip," which says to me the cantrip comes first.