[3.5] What breaks if sorcerers can learn metamagic spells?

[Mr Adventurer]

Specifically, I mean, if a sorcerer were allowed to take a metamagic version of a spell as a spell known in the appropriate spell slot, without knowing the metamagic feat in question and without increasing casting time.

So, you could learn extended shield as a second-level spell known, or maximised fireball as a 6th level spell known.

You can learn a spell this way with more than one feat applied to it, but metamagic reducers do not apply.

How much does the equation change if such spells also count as their slot level for other purposes (as though Heightened, so the DC of maximised fireball is 16+Cha and can penetrate globe of invulnerability)?

I'd expect there to be a number of edge cases of combinations of spells and metamagic that could be problematic in this model, but I don't know what the worst ones would be.

[Celestia]

Overall, I don't see much problem with this. You're sacrificing spell known slots for extra feat slots and losing versatility in the process. I'd actually say this is a net loss in power, in the end.

[OgresAreCute]

Metamagic is only really problematic if you use heavy cost reduction. Presumably, that won't apply here so I don't think it should be a problem.

[Mr Adventurer]

I guess the biggest risks are around metamagic feats that do things the spells can't normally achieve. So, less about more damage or slightly longer durations, more about Quicken and Persist, and maybe Reach and Shape Spell?

[AnimeTheCat]

I mean, there are abilities available to Sorcerers to allow them to cast without increasing casting time, from Level 1. PHB II has the ACF (trades away familiar) to let you cast a metamagic spell without increased casting time 3+Int modifier times per day. There's also the Rapid Metamagic feat available at level 9 for spontaneous casters, so this idea is largely unnecessary. Even more so by the time metamagic slinging is really starting to get running (enough spells, feats, and spell levels to actually play with). That kind of stuff doesn't really "take off" until mid levels anyway.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Invisible Spell is a +0 metamagic, so there would be no drawback to learning an Invisible Spell version of every spell you would have otherwise known.

[Buufreak]

SHow much does the equation change if such spells also count as their slot level for other purposes (as though Heightened, so the DC of maximised fireball is 16+Cha and can penetrate globe of invulnerability)?


I was under the assumption that this was already the rule.

[Quertus]

Invisible Spell is a +0 metamagic, so there would be no drawback to learning an Invisible Spell version of every spell you would have otherwise known.

I can see it now: "Dude, are your ever going to help out? Some ’Wizard master of Arcane power' you turned out to be."

[Telonius]

Specifically, I mean, if a sorcerer were allowed to take a metamagic version of a spell as a spell known in the appropriate spell slot, without knowing the metamagic feat in question and without increasing casting time.

So, you could learn extended shield as a second-level spell known, or maximised fireball as a 6th level spell known.

You can learn a spell this way with more than one feat applied to it, but metamagic reducers do not apply.

How much does the equation change if such spells also count as their slot level for other purposes (as though Heightened, so the DC of maximised fireball is 16+Cha and can penetrate globe of invulnerability)?

I'd expect there to be a number of edge cases of combinations of spells and metamagic that could be problematic in this model, but I don't know what the worst ones would be.

Researching new spells was already a thing, so you could just learn "Steve's Sneaky Sleep," a level 2 spell that does the exact same thing as a Silent Sleep spell, as long as the DM's on board. Casting time is really the only thing that would be affected; Sorcs would get the quicker casting without having to jump through the usual hoops, at the cost of a very, very limited resource (spells known). There might be some edge case utility for STP Erudites or Archivists, or some of those other "Yeah, I get all the spells" things, but I don't think it would break anything much more than it's already broken.

[Piggy Knowles]

I allow this in every game I DM, and it has never caused any problems. Mostly I saw it used with Energy Substitution, which was decent but hardly game breaking.

I don't allow Invisible Spell in my games in general, so that specific issue never came up. But if you do allow it, a sorcerer with Invisible Spell can already apply it to all their spells if they extend the casting time, so I hardly see this houserule as breaking anything that Invisible Spell doesn't break already.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I was under the assumption that this was already the rule.

A metamagiced spell is considered it's original spell level for all purposes except the minimum slot needed to cast it with the exception of Heighten Spell. So a maximized fireball has a 13+stat DC and fails against Lesser Globe of Invulnerability for example, but require a 6+ slot.

[Willie the Duck]

I think the fear that the unbelievable adaptability of metamagic sorcerers, being able to choose to apply metamagics on the fly with their non-prepared-ahead-of-time spell slots, was one of those things that the designers feared would become a problem that would overrun the game but never actually materialized.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think the fear that the unbelievable adaptability of metamagic sorcerers, being able to choose to apply metamagics on the fly with their non-prepared-ahead-of-time spell slots, was one of those things that the designers feared would become a problem that would overrun the game but never actually materialized.Wasn't it one designer in particular that hated sorcerers and nerfed them all to hell? He was probably all smug about the fact that the problem you mentioned never materialized, when it simply wouldn't have been a problem at all -- but he would say it's because he stopped it before it could, even though he's pretty much dead-wrong.

Reminds me of the other designer who nerfed astral construct so you could only ever have one at a time, which was somehow supposed to stop wilders from making really powerful constructs with it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wasn't it one designer in particular that hated sorcerers and nerfed them all to hell? He was probably all smug about the fact that the problem you mentioned never materialized, when it simply wouldn't have been a problem at all -- but he would say it's because he stopped it before it could, even though he's pretty much dead-wrong.

Monte Cook. He is well known for not wanting sorcerers included at all. Combine this with the skittishness of the designers he was able to force through a mauled to shreds sorcerer. In his own 3rd party books he made a series of feats pretty much explicitly for wizards (they were wizard bonus feats and all but one required Int 17+. One needed Cha 17+.)


Reminds me of the other designer who nerfed astral construct so you could only ever have one at a time, which was somehow supposed to stop wilders from making really powerful constructs with it.

Fun aside: the rule always made sense to me because a friend did not know what a "1 round" casting time is and ended up treating them as a "full-round action. It was not until I was looking at the power for other reasons did I notice the error but by then the house rule was set.

[Willie the Duck]

Wasn't it one designer in particular that hated sorcerers and nerfed them all to hell?

You know, as the various issues with 3e came about (particularly the LFQW and CoDzilla issues), and then of course 4e, there has been such a complete and utter fan hatedom towards various designers, that I can't really tell if I know the truth of the matter or just a 3rd-hand retelling of a rumor which has taken on a life of its' own.

What I know is that there is precious little support for sorcerers outside of stuff that affects them alongside wizards (and a whole heck of a lot of support for wizards that translates less well to sorcerers). Is that sorcerers being hated? Merely forgotten (while someone's actual pet class gets all the candy)? I really don't know.


He was probably all smug about the fact that the problem you mentioned never materialized, when it simply wouldn't have been a problem at all -- but he would say it's because he stopped it before it could, even though he's pretty much dead-wrong.

Hating/really disliking something is one level, actively reveling in the failure of it is a whole 'nother level beyond that. I don't know that this didn't happen, but it's take me knowing a lot more bad about the designers to assume this extra level of jerkitude.


Reminds me of the other designer who nerfed astral construct so you could only ever have one at a time, which was somehow supposed to stop wilders from making really powerful constructs with it.

Now this I agree with. Or heck, multiple attacks with moving >5', or slow continuous healing (because ooc healing was definitely a scarce resource which must be preserved for balance reasons). There are so many things that I guess seemed like they might wreck a game that you look at and scratch your head and think, 'you were afraid of this, but let _<insert your own personal example of clearly unintended exploit in 3e>_ through?'

[Awakeninfinity]

Monte Cook. He is well known for not wanting sorcerers included at all. Combine this with the skittishness of the designers he was able to force through a mauled to shreds sorcerer.

Any chance you happen to have more info; I'm curious about a possible non "mauled to shreds" sorcerer and what Mr. Cook has said.

[MisterKaws]

Spirit Shaman does this, except it changes everyday and comes from the Druid list. Community still voted it as a low T2 somehow.

[AnimeTheCat]

Spirit Shaman does this, except it changes everyday and comes from the Druid list. Community still voted it as a low T2 somehow.

I think it has to do with the more limited nature of the class abilities (limited to elementals and Fey I think) and the lack of wild shape really puts it behind the druid. Spell list vs spell list, I think druid is behind sorcerer/wizard and cleric lists (my opinion) so that's why I think it was put there.

[Gnaeus]

Yeah. SS has some problems that aren’t really relevant. Like that sorcerers have single spells (like Polymorph) that are more flexible than the SS list for that level, once you remove everything that needs a pet or wildshape to be viable. I think SS is overrated at T2. But I agree that letting sorcerers learn spells with metamagic as spells known wont likely break much.

A better example is the Arcanist. A PF class that uses the Sor/Wiz list. Arcanists prep spells in a way similar to the SS, but they can apply metamagic either way (on the fly like sorcerers or when preparing like S Shamans). Arcanist is a solid T1 but no more game breaking than its colleagues like wizard.

[Telonius]

I don't think there's ever been an explicit quote of his about wanting Sorcerers to be bad compared to Wizards. One thing he absolutely did put out there was the whole "Ivory Tower Gaming" thing. You can find a copy of that here (https://4thmaster.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/ivory-tower-game-design/). The idea was that you basically throw a whole bunch of abilities together and figure that the players with the most game mastery would figure out what the good options are. The stuff that looks cool isn't necessarily going to be cool. (If you ever hear about "Timmy Cards," this is what it's talking about). In the article he says that he "no longer" thinks that's a good idea (suggesting that he thought it was a good idea at one time).

I think people mostly took a look at that, then looked at Wizard vs Sorcerer. (Which one looks cooler, Mr. Charisma Focused Caster or the nerdy guy spending years of study?) Then they drew their conclusions.

[Mr Adventurer]

Overall, I don't see much problem with this. You're sacrificing spell known slots for extra feat slots and losing versatility in the process. I'd actually say this is a net loss in power, in the end.

Spells known are a more common character build resource than feats, though; and action economy is the most precious of all, as we know.


Metamagic is only really problematic if you use heavy cost reduction. Presumably, that won't apply here so I don't think it should be a problem.

Yep! I mean, I'm of a mind to ban reducers in any game I run anyway, but for the purposes of this discussion they're definitely not part of the proposed mechanic.


Invisible Spell is a +0 metamagic, so there would be no drawback to learning an Invisible Spell version of every spell you would have otherwise known.
I don't allow Invisible Spell in my games in general, so that specific issue never came up. But if you do allow it, a sorcerer with Invisible Spell can already apply it to all their spells if they extend the casting time, so I hardly see this houserule as breaking anything that Invisible Spell doesn't break already.

See, interesting edge case.

I wonder whether there are other +0 metamagic feats worth thinking about. The more of them there are, the more the Sorcerer's options go up, increasing the value of the mechanic. Off the top of my head - Energy Substitution? Black Lore of Moil is a metamagic feat where you pay for the extra effect with special expensive material components rather than level adjustment, isn't it?


Researching new spells was already a thing, so you could just learn "Steve's Sneaky Sleep," a level 2 spell that does the exact same thing as a Silent Sleep spell, as long as the DM's on board. Casting time is really the only thing that would be affected; Sorcs would get the quicker casting without having to jump through the usual hoops, at the cost of a very, very limited resource (spells known). There might be some edge case utility for STP Erudites or Archivists, or some of those other "Yeah, I get all the spells" things, but I don't think it would break anything much more than it's already broken.

Fair point, but, spell research has one huge barrier to its effective deployment in the majority of campaigns: time taken. I've literally never seen it done in a game I have played.

Plus, there's always the whole discussion with the DM over what's acceptable. Adds a lot of time to the table for just one thing, I'm not a fan.


I allow this in every game I DM, and it has never caused any problems. Mostly I saw it used with Energy Substitution, which was decent but hardly game breaking.

Thanks for the feedback! Great to hear actual play experience!


Spirit Shaman does this, except it changes everyday and comes from the Druid list. Community still voted it as a low T2 somehow.

Oh wow, interesting, I'll have to take a look at this.

...OK, so, actually what I'm seeing is the following text:


If a spirit shaman knows any metamagic feats, she applies them to her spells when she retrieves her spells for the day.

[...]

A spirit shaman cannot choose to alter her spells with metamagic feats on the fly, as other spontaneous casters do. Spirit shamans using metamagic feats do not have an increased casting time as sorcerers do.

So actually this seems to be quite different from the proposed mechanic in the OP.

[Mr Adventurer]

I wonder whether there are other +0 metamagic feats worth thinking about. The more of them there are, the more the Sorcerer's options go up, increasing the value of the mechanic. Off the top of my head - Energy Substitution? Black Lore of Moil is a metamagic feat where you pay for the extra effect with special expensive material components rather than level adjustment, isn't it?

Here we go:

Black Lore of Moil
Born of the Three Thunders
City Magic
Cooperative Spell
Imbued Healing (?)
Invisible Spell
Lord of the Uttercold
Metanode Spell (?)
Sanctum Spell
All the Sudden feats


So, there are definitely things you'd want to be careful of in there. However, I feel as though this is just as much a function of the metamagic feats in question as it is the intersection with the mechanic in the OP, in many cases.

Obviously you'd have to exclude the Sudden range...

[NNescio]

Specifically, I mean, if a sorcerer were allowed to take a metamagic version of a spell as a spell known in the appropriate spell slot, without knowing the metamagic feat in question and without increasing casting time.

So, you could learn extended shield as a second-level spell known, or maximised fireball as a 6th level spell known.

You can learn a spell this way with more than one feat applied to it, but metamagic reducers do not apply.

How much does the equation change if such spells also count as their slot level for other purposes (as though Heightened, so the DC of maximised fireball is 16+Cha and can penetrate globe of invulnerability)?

I'd expect there to be a number of edge cases of combinations of spells and metamagic that could be problematic in this model, but I don't know what the worst ones would be.

Sanctum Spell cheese (It's not a metamagic reducer). Now every spell can be gotten two character levels earlier.

Proceed to recursively link Sanctum'd (Greater) Arcane Fusion to itself and a blasting spell for infinite damage. Without taking all the required feats/ACFs.

[Prime32]

Here we go:

Black Lore of Moil
Born of the Three Thunders
City Magic
Cooperative Spell
Imbued Healing (?)
Invisible Spell
Lord of the Uttercold
Metanode Spell (?)
Sanctum Spell
All the Sudden feats
Black Lore of Moil feels overly specific, Invisible Spell is granting a benefit for free, and Imbued Healing is hard to make use of (unless you go Arcane Disciple). Cooperative Spell is also granting a benefit for free, but it's basically the same as Teamwork Benefits and doesn't seem too weird as a thing that all sorcerers can do (you can abuse it with followers, but that's a given). City Spell, Sanctum Spell and Metanode Spell all depend on remaining in a specific location in order for your spells to work, which can make them impractical. Energy Substitution is mainly a horizontal change (good for thematics, though it may lead to a lot of acid-users), while Born of the Three Thunders and Lord of the Uttercold have drawbacks which prevent them from being an obvious choice (and because BotTT is part of the base effect you apply it before Snowcasting, meaning you can't pull off the trick that turns divination spells into explosions).

It also seems fine to let sorcerers Heighten their spells on the fly without a feat, though maybe retaining the increased casting time.

EDIT: There's also the metamagic feats requiring Shadow Weave Magic, like Pernicious Magic (bonus to beat SR of Weave users), Insidious Magic (Weave users find your spells harder to detect) and Tenacious Magic (Weave users find your spells hard to dispel). But there's a PrC which grants all three for free at lv1 anyway. The main issue is that PCs should still be required to have the Shadow Weave Magic feat in order to use them.

From Dragon magazine there's Relicguard Spell, which prevents spells from affecting objects or object-like creatures (constructs and undead). Or you could apply Named Spell + Greater Named Spell to gain a free +4 to save DCs and caster level checks when casting a spell against a single target (though you have to succeed on a Truespeak check).

EDIT2: If you're allowing Pathfinder material, there's also Brackish Spell (spells with the water descriptor grant you DR for 1 round), Brisk Spell (+10ft speed to spells that grant a movement mode), Eclipsed Spell (spells shed light instead of darkness or vice versa), Centred Spell (instantaneous area effect becomes centred on you, doesn't affect you), Fleeting Spell (half duration and easier to dispel, but can be dismissed as a swift action even if not normally dismissable), Merciful Spell (damage becomes nonlethal), Murky Spell (fog becomes a cloud of ink that works only underwater and has its duration reduced by 90%), Steam Spell (fire spell works normally underwater and is hard to use out of water), and Tenebrous Spell when applied to darkess or shadow spells (+1 CL/DC in darkness, works poorly in light)