Trickery’s Divine Strike should be Psychic Damage

[jaappleton]

I’m just shouting this from the rooftops. Poison is absolutely, by far, the absolute worst damage type for a player to receive and any feature that focuses on it is a trap option.

I have seen even the most ‘no, it’s what the book says, TOO BAD’ style DMs concede and be willing to change it to Psychic.

.......don’t even get me started on Spores Druid...

[No brains]

One of the things that strikes me as weird about poison immunity being so far-reaching is that mythology has beings getting poisoned all the time. It's super weird for me that gods are immune to poison when Zeus is poisoned in one of his stories.

There should be some kind of 'super poison' that elevates normal poison above sucking so much. Maybe something like a 'poison megaphone' that amplifies poisons into non-poison magical effects. Maybe something is physiologically immune to poison, but is it immune to the meme of taking the wrong thing in and having it hurt you?

And while we're talking about physiology, anything can be a poison if enough of it gets in the wrong place. Sure a yuan-ti might have a physiology that works with snake venom in its blood, but are you telling me that their serpent gods intended to make them the most powerful competitive drinkers in the world?:smalltongue:

[Reevh]

Yeah, I agree. Psychic damage makes a lot more sense.

And yeah, Poison is wayyyy too often resisted to be something that any player who has been playing a while would choose intentionally. Which is unfortunate, because poison is thematically very cool.

[Nagog]

And while we're talking about physiology, anything can be a poison if enough of it gets in the wrong place. Sure a yuan-ti might have a physiology that works with snake venom in its blood, but are you telling me that their serpent gods intended to make them the most powerful competitive drinkers in the world?:smalltongue:

Well back in the day, you could convert people to a belief much easier if you drink them under the table first. Jokes aside, probably not, but it makes for some interesting mechanics. Perhaps the Yuan-ti poison resistances are more due to a much stronger immune system that is better at filtering out toxins than most races?

[Reevh]

Also, I looooove the idea behind Spore Druid, but yeah, making everything a CON save and making their bonus to weapon attacks be poison damage is just.... unfortunate.

[JNAProductions]

Did someone say SUPER POISON (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?456186-Poisoner-Prestige-Class&p=20044873#post20044873)? :P

But on topic, I completely agree with the OP.

[Nhorianscum]

I’m just shouting this from the rooftops. Poison is absolutely, by far, the absolute worst damage type for a player to receive and any feature that focuses on it is a trap option.

I have seen even the most ‘no, it’s what the book says, TOO BAD’ style DMs concede and be willing to change it to Psychic.

.......don’t even get me started on Spores Druid...

I don't really mind the poison DS on trickery CLERIC.

The class sorta vomits radiant damage.

Like 20×2 (GoFx2) + 3d8~13.5 (SG) + 2d8+5~14 (SW) for 77.5 radiant/round averageish at level 8 unoptimized.

DS affects this only on the round we use SW if we're going all in. Trickery just goes "nope" and pops Invis CD on that turn instead of attacking anywho. The poison DS is totally irrelevant mechanically, it'sa gap of 0, 2.25, or 4.5 average damage on weapon attacks at level 8+ and 0, 4.5, and 9 at 14 vs other DS's. La, De, Dah.

[Reevh]

I don't really mind the poison DS on trickery CLERIC.

The class sorta vomits radiant damage.

Like 20×2 (GoFx2) + 3d8~13.5 (SG) + 2d8+5~14 (SW) for 77.5 radiant/round averageish at level 8 unoptimized.

DS affects this only on the round we use SW if we're going all in. Trickery just goes "nope" and pops Invis CD on that turn instead of attacking anywho. The poison DS is totally irrelevant mechanically.

Guardian of Faith is a 4th level spellcast that can't move, is a Dex save, and disappears after 3 hits. I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that you'll be doing 40 damage per round from that ability, particularly when you only have two of those spell slots at level 8.

But yes, Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon are both powerful abilities.

[Nhorianscum]

Guardian of Faith is a 4th level spellcast that can't move, is a Dex save, and disappears after 3 hits. I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that you'll be doing 40 damage per round from that ability, particularly when you only have two of those spell slots at level 8.

But yes, Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon are both powerful abilities.

Dex for half "shrug"

The moment would be a pain in the keister if cleric's didn't have oodles of CC. Like SG. Generally if we take this spell we're snagging sentinel/warcaster though.

It's a pretty hard nova burning 2 4ths and 2 3rds but we can in fact pretend to be a GWF fighter. Which is nice.

60 fixed damage over (a likely) 3 round period with no concentration is a spell I will never not use. Your mileage may varry.

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We can upcast inflict wounds over GoF on turns 3 and 4 if you like? It's worse on turns 4-6 but it's still a stronger relevant nova than DS fiddlesticks even with BB.

Cloak of shadows into inflict is dirty with EA as a wood elf tricky cleric.

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Point remains. We're a cleric. Trickery not getting a better DS means we're possibly the worst combat cleric. IE still better than most fully charOP builds for the entirely of tiers 1 and 2 by a mile.

It's thematic and I'm ok with that.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, I am also in the camp that psychic damage is at least as fitting as poison. Somewhat more complicated by my also being in the camp that would have given the domain the boost to cantrips instead.

[Crucius]

There should be some kind of 'super poison' that elevates normal poison above sucking so much. Maybe something like a 'poison megaphone' that amplifies poisons into non-poison magical effects. Maybe something is physiologically immune to poison, but is it immune to the meme of taking the wrong thing in and having it hurt you?

So something like the poison damage equivalent of magical weapons? Make it resistance to non-magical poison damage on monsters and have the players buy or find a magical poison just like they would a magical sword maybe? I could get behind that from both a DM and a player perspective.

[stoutstien]

So something like the poison damage equivalent of magical weapons? Make it resistance to non-magical poison damage on monsters and have the players buy or find a magical poison just like they would a magical sword maybe? I could get behind that from both a DM and a player perspective.

Just use acid?

[DracoKnight]

Just use acid?

Soooooooooooo many pretty colors...

This is what I do for "magical" poison damage.

[Seclora]

Yeah, that seems reasonable. If one of my players asked for it I would either allow the change or plan on enough non-poison immune foes that they didn't lose out by having poison. you know, give them lots of humanoids, beasts, and the more basic monstrosities, which should, theoretically, be the most common enemy types any how.


I thought that the published version of Spores got Necrotic damage instead of poison for the most part? I know it was my biggest beef on the survey, and in that situation [nature/decay] necrotic is a suitable change, just as [sneakiness/divine influence] psychic is suitable in this one.

[No brains]

So something like the poison damage equivalent of magical weapons? Make it resistance to non-magical poison damage on monsters and have the players buy or find a magical poison just like they would a magical sword maybe? I could get behind that from both a DM and a player perspective.

Good point. That there is something already like this... and so prevalent it is embarrassing for me to have missed it... in the game makes a good point for 'magical-weapon-poisons'.

Maybe we could use poisons that bypass immunity on certain type (or types) of creatures. Specific poisons for yuan-ti, demons, and even gods makes sense, but I think we can all agree that poisons shouldn't work on skeletons or stone golems.


Just use acid?


Soooooooooooo many pretty colors...

This is what I do for "magical" poison damage.

You're gonna be sorry when you then need 'magical acid weapons' to take on a black dragon, mimic, or clay golem! :smalltongue:

I get that they seem kinda similar from a chemistry standpoint, but from a broad view physics standpoint 'heat' is behind most damage types. Acid, fire, electricity, radiant and on a small scale the friction from any weapon 'burn'.

From a theme/ meme perspective, acid is a room-temperature liquid that burns and poison is stuff that can taste like burning, make one dizzy, blow chunks, or all at once. I could buy that Zeus is immune to acid since he's never been burned by it and can hold onto lightning bolts while punching volcano monsters, but nothing, not even the source text can tell me that he is immune to getting drunk.

[JackPhoenix]

From a theme/ meme perspective, acid is a room-temperature liquid that burns and poison is stuff that can taste like burning, make one dizzy, blow chunks, or all at once. I could buy that Zeus is immune to acid since he's never been burned by it and can hold onto lightning bolts while punching volcano monsters, but nothing, not even the source text can tell me that he is immune to getting drunk.

Well, of course not, being drunk is poisoned CONDITION, not poison damage. You can be immune or resistant to one without being immune to other.

Though, to be fair, as far as I can tell, there are two creatures immune to poison damage, but not the condition: Brain in a Jar and, hilariously, Baba Lysaga's Creeping Hut from CoS.

[Seclora]

Well, of course not, being drunk is poisoned CONDITION, not poison damage. You can be immune or resistant to one without being immune to other.

Though, to be fair, as far as I can tell, there are two creatures immune to poison damage, but not the condition: Brain in a Jar and, hilariously, Baba Lysaga's Creeping Hut from CoS.

If I ever play Curse of Strahd, I am playing an overly friendly Drunken Master and my entire goal will be to get the hut drunk. Either of those would be hilarious!

Also, for Mythological backing of this distinction, I offer the ascension of Herakles. He is covered in a sticky, poisoned shirt which he cannot remove, he is in immense pain and cannot function(Poisoned), however, he cannot be killed by it(Poison damage). Therefore, while he is immune to Poison damage, he is not immune to the Poisoned Condition.

[Tanarii]

Wait, what? It's trickster cleric, not psion cleric.

Just make it 2d8 poison, so it's super useful when it's useful. Also "poison is the most common immunity", while true, is very campaign dependent. Same with fire resistance. The claim is based on counting monster manual entries, not what's in any given campaign.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will say the trickery need to get Potent Spellcasting instead.

[Tanarii]

I will say the trickery need to get Potent Spellcasting instead.
It'd probably be better if they kept melee/range weapon based DS, and replaced Blessing of the Trickster with some kind of bonus with light armor and daggers, given the way most people seem to think the point is for them to be built as Dex-based thief-clerics. :smallamused:

[stoutstien]

Wait, what? It's trickster cleric, not psion cleric.

Just make it 2d8 poison, so it's super useful when it's useful. Also "poison is the most common immunity", while true, is very campaign dependent. Same with fire resistance. The claim is based on counting monster manual entries, not what's in any given campaign.

I like this. Could help all the posion spells also.

[Daghoulish]

Wait, what? It's trickster cleric, not psion cleric.

Just make it 2d8 poison, so it's super useful when it's useful. Also "poison is the most common immunity", while true, is very campaign dependent. Same with fire resistance. The claim is based on counting monster manual entries, not what's in any given campaign.

I also don't really see the need to change it from poison but to say you can't change it to psychic damage and not be thematic seems wrong to me. Saying psychic damage is only for psionics is also wrong. You know what deals psychic damage? Illusion's such as mental prison and phantasmal killer deal psychic damage and you know what the trickery cleric gets quite a few of? 2 of there domain spells and illusions and both of there channel divinity's cause illusions, one creating a perfect illusion and the other turning you invisible. I'd say psychic damage is more thematic that poison coming out of nowhere.

[Dr. Cliché]

One of the things that strikes me as weird about poison immunity being so far-reaching is that mythology has beings getting poisoned all the time. It's super weird for me that gods are immune to poison when Zeus is poisoned in one of his stories.

That's a good point.

Maybe some of the poison-immune monsters should be tweaked so that they're only immune to nonmagical poisons.

[Tanarii]

I also don't really see the need to change it from poison but to say you can't change it to psychic damage and not be thematic seems wrong to me. Saying psychic damage is only for psionics is also wrong. You know what deals psychic damage? Illusion's such as mental prison and phantasmal killer deal psychic damage and you know what the trickery cleric gets quite a few of? 2 of there domain spells and illusions and both of there channel divinity's cause illusions, one creating a perfect illusion and the other turning you invisible. I'd say psychic damage is more thematic that poison coming out of nowhere.edit: removed previous, I'm just gonna concede you're got a point. Between illusions and enchantments, it is more thematic than I knee jerk reacted initially.