Full Wizard vs Knowledge Cleric 1 / Wizard X

[Yakmala]

I'm in the process of building a Fire Genasi Evoker character and I'm debating the advantages and drawbacks of investing in a single level of Knowledge Cleric.

The advantages as I see them:

Medium armor and shields.
Expertise in two Intelligence skills makes my wizard better in an area where no other party members are proficient.
Access to Cleric cantrips, in particular Guidance.
A few low level but highly useful Cleric spells like Healing Word and Bless.



And the drawbacks:

Setting back higher level Wizard spell casting by 1 level.
Wisdom must be at least 13, rather than a dump stat, forcing me to lower other attributes.
One level slower to get defining abilities of School of Evocation.



Thoughts? For those who have gone this route before, were you happy with your choice or did you regret not remaining single class?

[Reevh]

I think Cleric 1/Wizard X is a great mix, but I'd tend to want something that can wear heavy armor, personally, like Order, Nature, Life, or Forge.

Order lets you command allies you cast spells on to attack with their reaction. Super useful if there's a rogue in your party, as the damage the rogue will do is likely much higher than whatever spell you'd have cast, and you get the added benefit of giving the rogue some kind of buff or heal.

Nature gives you a druid cantrip and a bonus proficiency.

Life makes your healing spells do 2 plus the spell level extra healing, which isn't that much, but eh.

And Forge gives you or someone in your party +1 more AC or weapon enhancement on a nonmagical weapon or armor.

ALL of these give you heavy armor and the rest of the benefits of being a cleric, which are substantial, without affecting your spell slot progression and only delaying your max spell levels known by 1 level. I'd do it if your table doesn't view it as powergamey munchkin nonsense and you can find a good character reason.

[Bobthewizard]

Order lets you command allies you cast spells on to attack with their reaction. Super useful if there's a rogue in your party, as the damage the rogue will do is likely much higher than whatever spell you'd have cast, and you get the added benefit of giving the rogue some kind of buff or heal.

Could you use Voice of Authority with Evoker's Sculpt spell? With sculpt spells, you are still technically targeting your ally, they just get to automatically save and take no damage. You could cast fireball on the rogue and the enemy, then the rogue could make an extra attack.

[Keravath]

Personally, I like the cleric 1/wizard X mix. I currently have a vhuman knowledge cleric 1/evoker 7 and they are great fun to play. Expertise in the knowledge skills has come in handy since they start out at +7 and hit +10 at level 5 if you boost int with the ASI (which is usually a good idea for wizards). The party also often has a straight evoker and I don't really feel much behind them. They did get fireball one level earlier but I just used shatter and other spells until I caught up. I also don't have to use a spell slot for mage armor and with medium armor and a shield plus the possible shield spell my AC is much more reliable if I get caught up in combat which reduces the chances of having to make a concentration check.

Be sure to take the Toll the Dead cantrip on your wizard since the evoker level 6 ability makes it very effective. In terms of stats, I went vhuman and took resilient constitution so the stats worked out as 9 14 14 16 14 8. The 14 in wisdom is useful since it improves the wisdom based skills and lets me prepare an extra 1st level cleric spell. Fire genasi could manage 8 14 14 16 14 8 for stats or a 15 con and 13 wis if you plan on taking resilient con at some point. Getting 16 con to start means ditching cleric or dropping dex to get the extra points (assuming you are using point buy for stats).

[Reevh]

Could you use Voice of Authority with Evoker's Sculpt spell? With sculpt spells, you are still technically targeting your ally, they just get to automatically save and take no damage. You could cast fireball on the rogue and the enemy, then the rogue could make an extra attack.

I certainly wouldn't allow that as DM, since it seems like it goes against the rules as intended, but check with your DM I guess!

[Laserlight]

I played Sherlock Gnomes, a Knowledge 1/Divination X from L6-9 in SKT. I'm undecided whether I would MC again. Our DM for that campaign tends to focus on attacking the front line and obvious threats, and apparently "gnome caster standing 50ft back" isn't a threat; consequently the armor and shield proficiency was only useful a handful of times. (The most damage I ever took was casting the healing spell that damages the caster and heals the target for double).
Guidance and a couple other cleric spells were useful, and prevented one fatality; delaying the next level spells, and feats, was a nuisance.
So, if my DM made a serious effort at attacking the casters, I"d probably MC again.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I think Cleric 1/Wizard X is a great mix, but I'd tend to want something that can wear heavy armor, personally, like Order, Nature, Life, or Forge.

[Omitted]

ALL of these give you heavy armor and the rest of the benefits of being a cleric, which are substantial, without affecting your spell slot progression and only delaying your max spell levels known by 1 level. I'd do it if your table doesn't view it as powergamey munchkin nonsense and you can find a good character reason.

Heavy armor isn't that great a boon for most Wizards. Now not only do you need at least 13 Wisdom to multiclass, you also need at least 15 Strength (a much bigger deal to acquire) to use the best heavy armor, or you have to suck up the decreased tactical movement, which can have a big impact in battle. Suddenly, every fight (until you get D-Door to 'port back to your mounts) becomes a do or die, with no option for tactical withdrawal or falling back to a more advantageous position, as your enemies will almost always outspeed you. Granted, there's games where that's not an issue, but if your DM is playing with the kit gloves off, that's a big sacrifice to make. Plus, OP mentioned Expertise in Int-based skills early on in the list of pros, which makes it seem like they really want their Fire Genasi to fit the bill when it comes to the "learned Wizard" trope. And at that point, the heavy armor proficiency is moot, since only Knowledge domain will get you the Expertise.

At OP, I've played full casters with a one or two level dip before, and generally speaking it's painless. Yeah you're a bit behind getting Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern/Haste/what have you, but you're looking at max two levels (or just one in your case) where you really feel behind. After that, higher and higher level spells are nice, but there's not quite the same jump, especially for an Evoker still getting full slot progression. Until you're Cleric 1/Wizard 16 and could have Meteor Swarm but don't, but again, that'll only last you one level, and that's assuming you even play that far. It's a fun dip, and I'd say go for it if you want.

[Misterwhisper]

Kind of depends on how far the game should get.

One level of cleric is mighty handy.
Medium armor
Shields
Some nice buffing and healing spells.
Guidance alone is amazing

[Lunali]

Heavy armor isn't that great a boon for most Wizards. Now not only do you need at least 13 Wisdom to multiclass, you also need at least 15 Strength (a much bigger deal to acquire) to use the best heavy armor, or you have to suck up the decreased tactical movement, which can have a big impact in battle. Suddenly, every fight (until you get D-Door to 'port back to your mounts) becomes a do or die, with no option for tactical withdrawal or falling back to a more advantageous position, as your enemies will almost always outspeed you. Granted, there's games where that's not an issue, but if your DM is playing with the kit gloves off, that's a big sacrifice to make. Plus, OP mentioned Expertise in Int-based skills early on in the list of pros, which makes it seem like they really want their Fire Genasi to fit the bill when it comes to the "learned Wizard" trope. And at that point, the heavy armor proficiency is moot, since only Knowledge domain will get you the Expertise.

How often have you encountered a fight where you were outclassed and able to run away by virtue of your movement speed? In my experience, there's very little difference between speed 20 and 30 in terms of what you can escape from.

[Xihirli]

I had a short adventure where I played a Knowledge Cleric 1 / Illusionist 16 and even with Wish taunting me one level away I was having a great time. With my AC plus Shield I could fully take advantage of my battle-altering concentration spells without worry, plus move around my three permanent major images instead of D. Dooring out of melee every other round. Better than being able to cast Simulacrum (didn’t have the money for the base spell) or Find Greater Steed day before the big battle? Maybe not. But it didn’t feel nearly as far behind as I was worried about while looking at those sweet ninth-Level spells.

[Lord Vukodlak]

How often have you encountered a fight where you were outclassed and able to run away by virtue of your movement speed? In my experience, there's very little difference between speed 20 and 30 in terms of what you can escape from.

No but there is a huge difference between 20 and 30 in terms of getting into optimum position to fire off a spell for maximum effect. Getting an extra foe in that line, or avoiding party members. Or getting into range to hit the enemy with the spell, or coming out from behind cover and getting back behind cover. 10ft can mean the difference between and enemy closing the distance and being able to attack and having to take a double move.

[LudicSavant]

Could you use Voice of Authority with Evoker's Sculpt spell? With sculpt spells, you are still technically targeting your ally, they just get to automatically save and take no damage. You could cast fireball on the rogue and the enemy, then the rogue could make an extra attack.

Yep, you totally can.

[SLOTHRPG95]

How often have you encountered a fight where you were outclassed and able to run away by virtue of your movement speed? In my experience, there's very little difference between speed 20 and 30 in terms of what you can escape from.

More than once. And in one case, the gnome in full plate with all of 15 ft. of move speed fell behind and was presumed eaten by the horde of bugbears from which we ran. To be fair, we probably wouldn't have needed to retreat if we hadn't been surprised by them, but them's the breaks.


No but there is a huge difference between 20 and 30 in terms of getting into optimum position to fire off a spell for maximum effect. Getting an extra foe in that line, or avoiding party members. Or getting into range to hit the enemy with the spell, or coming out from behind cover and getting back behind cover. 10ft can mean the difference between and enemy closing the distance and being able to attack and having to take a double move.

Also, this. Tactical movement is important. It's the reason that getting Dash as a bonus action is so darn good.

[LudicSavant]

Adding to what others have said:

Positioning is king. As such, movement speed is extraordinarily valuable both offensively and defensively. Smart and/or ruthless foes can do a lot to exploit it, or exploit your lack of it.

Additionally, heavy armor doesn't actually offer a whole lot that Medium Armor doesn't. It provides an AC advantage of 1 or less. For example:

For 50 gp and 14 Dex, you can have a suit of Scale Mail with 16 AC and 30 foot movement.
For 75 gp and 13 Str (but let's face it, you need 15 to be future-proofed), you can have a suit of Chain Mail with 16 AC and 30 foot movement.

For 1250gp and 14 Dex, you can have half-plate and a cloak of protection for 18 AC, 30 foot movement, and +1 to all saves.
For 1500gp and 15 Str, you can have plate for 18 AC and 30 foot movement.
Yeah, you can't always buy/craft/whatever cloaks of protection, but it still offers some perspective into how much that 750 extra gp cost is supposed to be worth.

The point is that it sort of switches back and forth. At level 1 with starting gear, medium armor is better. But then heavy armor guy will afford Splint before you afford Half-Plate. And then half-plate (and maybe even a magic item on top of that) will be affordable before plate. And then plate + uncommon magic gear will be affordable before half-plate and more magic gear. And eventually plate will top off with 1 extra AC once all attunement slots are filled (or if you're in a game with no magic items at all), but at the cost of either lower movement speed or needing to invest in 15 Str instead of 14 Dex (which is a significant defensive cost in its own right).

Heavy armor is more of a sidegrade than a straight upgrade over medium. If you've got proficiency in it, great, but you shouldn't worry much about not having it.

[Lunali]

For 1250gp and 14 Dex, you can have half-plate and a cloak of protection for 18 AC, 30 foot movement, and +1 to all saves.
For 1500gp and 15 Str, you can have plate for 18 AC and 30 foot movement.
Yeah, you can't always buy/craft/whatever cloaks of protection, but it still offers some perspective into how much that 750 extra gp cost is supposed to be worth.

More important than the difficulty in getting cloaks or similar items is the attunement slot they take up.

[LudicSavant]

More important than the difficulty in getting cloaks or similar items is the attunement slot they take up.

I already mentioned that. In the part of the quote you snipped out.

[Spieldog20]

For me, the "just be behind one level on getting spell X" is either a big deal, or not a big deal at all, as it is very table dependent. How long do you levels take? If you level every 3-4 sessions regardless, then it is no big deal. If you play XP and the levels take longer and longer, then it can be excruciating. And of course this depends on your personality also.

I played a pally up to level 6 who then also had good story reasons to MC into a Draconic Bloodline Sorc for level 7. But that time at level 7 and level 8 was excruciating. We played XP so they took a long time, and frankly Sorcs don't get much in those early levels that was a big boon at those higher levels of play...even though Pally6/SorcX is an often adviced MC.

Obviously, this is a different scenario than Cleric1/WizardX, but take from it what you will. I do like the boons you mention, as getting expertise in Arcana and one other knowledge proficiency is great imho.

[darknite]

I've got a Wizard (Evoker) 19 / Cleric (Knowledge) 1 and it worked great. No spell-slot loss, just a couplle of once-per-day 3rd/4th level spells you would get at Wiz20 that at 20th level you don't really miss. I did it for the expertise in Arcana and Nature because of how it fits the character - forest gnome and worshiper of Mystra.

[Chrizzt]

Yeah, it is strange how a Wizard 19/Knowledge Cleric 1 can, due to Expertise, be more wizardlike than a wizard 20.

They should have made the capstoneability more interesting. It is nice as it is, but no real reason to take it above other choices. There should be more reward to so much dedication.

Though I might go Wizard 20 anyways :)

[Eldariel]

It's much worse over the career though. ECL3? No Misty Step, Invisibility, Suggestion, etc. ECL5? No Fly, Haste, Animate Dead, etc. ECL7? No Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, etc. ECL9? Contact Other Plane, etc. Then you get to Contingency, Magic Jar, Teleport, Plane Shift, all these campaign altering spells. So it's not free.

[darknite]

It's much worse over the career though. ECL3? No Misty Step, Invisibility, Suggestion, etc. ECL5? No Fly, Haste, Animate Dead, etc. ECL7? No Polymorph, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, etc. ECL9? Contact Other Plane, etc. Then you get to Contingency, Magic Jar, Teleport, Plane Shift, all these campaign altering spells. So it's not free.

Not sure what you mean. Sure at ECL3 you don't get the 2nd level spell, but you do get the 2nd level slot. And then at ECL4 you get the spell. A one-level offset was not an issue in my experience. What does the part about Contingency, et al getting at?

[Spieldog20]

He is saying that during each of those levels, you are missing those big, important, play altering spells. And that is the cost you pay. At those character levels you are missing out on what you would have if you had been a single class wizard.

This then goes back to my point on both how long those times in those levels will actually be, and how you personally cope with that cost.

As we can see, for some tables and folks it is no big deal. Both for others, it is. It is up to the OP to think on that and see how he predicts he will feel, etc.

[darknite]

Makes sense. I just used the higher level spell slot as an upcast option at those levels.

[Shadhael]

Yep, you totally can.

AFB, but you would need to explicitly be targeting your ally, would you not? Fireball in this specific example targets a point within range, no actual creatures. I don't see how Sculpt and Voice would stack with Fireball, although I'm sure there are spells where you could stack them.

[LudicSavant]

AFB, but you would need to explicitly be targeting your ally, would you not? Fireball in this specific example targets a point within range, no actual creatures. I don't see how Sculpt and Voice would stack with Fireball, although I'm sure there are spells where you could stack them.

AoEs target a point within range, and creatures within their area of effect.

Note the text for Fireball:


A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save

Note also that AoEs that don't specifically say they have a target in their spell card still are referred to as having targets by other rules. For example, Flame Strike doesn't mention targets in its spell card, but we know that it has them:

If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts Fireball or a cleric casts Flame Strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.

Here is an extended breakdown of how spell targeting works: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/5ozpwj/jeremy_crawford_on_targeting_spells/. Note that "Target" is used more or less interchangeably with "affected creature/object/whatever" throughout the rules, which apparently confuses some people who are used to another edition defining it as a separate thing.

[BloodOgre]

I played a wizard from level 1 through 8. I can count the number of times my low AC (15 with mage armor, 20 with shield as a reaction spell) resulted in me getting hit on two fingers. The other times I took damage was from other casters using spells requiring a saving throw. Despite having the lowest AC and fewest hit points, I was always the most survivable character in the party.

I have found that when I play a cleric, or a cleric/arcane caster mix, I tend to be emboldened by my high AC (forgetting my still fairly low HP total), and it usually only takes two or three good hits from a well matched foe to take me out. At higher levels, an AC of 20, means the guy that has a +9 to hit bonus is still going to hit you almost half the time, and he usually gets two, if not three attacks. And if the DM rolls a crit success, an AC of 30 isn't going to help you.

In short, as a caster a high AC is a false sense of security. There are other reasons to multi-class, but don't do it for the high AC.

Now, I have found that taking a dip in sorcerer for the 4 extra cantrips, two spell slots and access to the shield spell is usually a much better choice than the magic initiate feat, if you have the CHA.

[NNescio]

AoEs target a point within range, and creatures within their area of effect.

Note the text for Fireball:



Note also that AoEs that don't specifically say they have a target in their spell card still are referred to as having targets by other rules. For example, Flame Strike doesn't mention targets in its spell card, but we know that it has them:


Here is an extended breakdown of how spell targeting works: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/5ozpwj/jeremy_crawford_on_targeting_spells/. Note that "Target" is used more or less interchangeably with "affected creature/object/whatever" throughout the rules, which apparently confuses some people who are used to another edition defining it as a separate thing.

Debatable.

The summary you linked to is careful to note that target can mean two different things (from context), "something to be affected", and "something chosen to be affected".

Equivocating the two leads to unintended rules interactions like AoE spells not being able to affect entities beyond the range of a spell (partially inheriting AoE properties from older editions).

Range

The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. (...)


As well as not being able to affect entities in total cover with respect to the caster either, despite not being in total cover with respect to the Point of Origin (or, more simply, "no corner shots" or "Airburst Fireball above and behind cover").

A Clear Path to the Target

To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover. (...)


...All of which contradict (implicitly or otherwise) the description of the spell AoEs (e.g. description of how cylinders/sphere/etc. expand, the spread properties of some AoEs like Fireball), as well as various Sage rulings (like the one spread/cover involving Fireball here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/11/21/how-does-fireball-and-cover-interacts/)).

Personally I chalk it up to poor wording* and interpret "target" in one of two possible ways depending on context.

(*And the absolute worst wording of any rule in 5e at that, IMHO.)

[LudicSavant]

I am unclear on how you are coming to either of these conclusions.

unintended rules interactions like AoE spells not being able to affect entities beyond the range of a spell (partially inheriting AoE properties from older editions).



Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.


As well as not being able to affect entities in total cover with respect to the caster either, despite not being in total cover with respect to the Point of Origin (or, more simply, "no corner shots" or "Airburst Fireball above and behind cover").



A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin.


...All of which contradict (implicitly or otherwise) the description of the spell AoEs (e.g. description of how cylinders/sphere/etc. expand, the spread properties of some AoEs like Fireball), as well as various Sage rulings (like the one spread/cover involving Fireball here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/11/21/how-does-fireball-and-cover-interacts/)).

That's not a contradiction. Fireball has a specific feature in its spell description that makes it wrap around corners.


The fire spreads around corners.

[NNescio]

I am unclear on how you are coming to either of these conclusions.

You are claiming that a caster can target an ally when he includes the ally in an AoE, in order to qualify for Voice of Authority ("If you cast a spell with a spell slot of 1st level or higher and target an ally with the spell"). By the same ruling, the caster cannot Fireball creatures behind corners because he does not have a Clear Path to them. How the spell expands from the PoO is irrelevant (it clarifies how the area of the spell is adjudicated, NOT targeting); the Clear Path to the Target rules takes precedence once you have ruled that both instances of the word "target" mean the same thing (and that the caster is targeting those creatures).

As for range, the final line does not absolve in any way the initial requirement that the targets have to be in range. Fireball has a duration of instantaneous. If the affected entity is a target of the spell and/or a target of the caster, it must be within range for the initial cast.

All of these unintuitive (semi-)contradictions go away, however, when one reads "target of a spell" (and "target of a caster") and "target of an effect" as different things.

Edit:
That's not a contradiction. Fireball has a specific feature in its spell description that makes it wrap around corners.
Which does not provide an explicit exemption to Clear Path to the Target for the caster. If you choose to read "target(s) of a (spell) effect" as also being the same as "target(s( of a spellcaster", then the Fireball's AoE spreads around the corner... but fails to target any entities behind said corner, because of the Clear Path to the Target rules. (which only kick in, again, if we equivocate all the different instances of the word target. They go away, however, when "target of an effect" and "target of a caster casting a spell" are considered different.)

[LudicSavant]

the Clear Path to the Target rules takes precedence Specific beats general, not the other way around. The specific rule of fireballs is that the path of the AoE wraps around corners, instead of expanding in straight lines. The non-linear path must still be clear of obstacles; if the path of the fireballs are blocked (such as by someone being fully enclosed by a dome) it would still not target you.

This all seems rather tangential to the original question; I think we can all agree that Fireball does indeed have targets, because if it didn't, it wouldn't do any damage (since only targets take 8d6 damage).

[xroads]

For my two cents, I'd go single class and pick up feats that get me closer to what I want. Perhaps Skilled or Magic Initiate?


How often have you encountered a fight where you were outclassed and able to run away by virtue of your movement speed? In my experience, there's very little difference between speed 20 and 30 in terms of what you can escape from.

It makes a difference if your buddy moves 20' and you move 30'. Remember, you don't have to run faster than the monster. Just faster than your buddy. :sabine:

[McSkrag]

Speaking from the experience of playing a 1 Knowledge / 9 Divination Wizard I've found that the cleric level is really helpful and makes my wizard more fun to play.

I get a lot of use out of guidance especially when combined with Knowledge expertise skills. Know all the things!

Being able to cast healing word as a bonus action has saved a few comrades. The medium armor + shield + shield spell means I don't get hit often in combat which means fewer concentration checks.

The only time I ever felt behind was when I hit level 5 but only had level 2 spells. Once I got to level 6 and picked up level 3 spells I haven't noticed being behind in spelll level progression.

[Ogre Mage]

I think Knowledge Cleric 1/Wizard X is a great multiclass combo and I would like to play it in the future.

[Reevh]

Heavy armor isn't that great a boon for most Wizards. Now not only do you need at least 13 Wisdom to multiclass, you also need at least 15 Strength (a much bigger deal to acquire) to use the best heavy armor, or you have to suck up the decreased tactical movement, which can have a big impact in battle.

While I don't think the movement loss is as big an issue as you say (especially for a ranged character), this is easily solved with Gauntlets of Ogre Might, an uncommon magic item which should be purchasable in most major cities for a reasonable sum, depending on your DM. Or if your DM allows, playing as a warforged, this becomes a non-issue. Even better, since by level 17 you'd have a 22 base AC with no movement penalty nor strength requirement.

[NNescio]

While I don't think the movement loss is as big an issue as you say (especially for a ranged character), this is easily solved with Gauntlets of Ogre Might, an uncommon magic item which should be purchasable in most major cities for a reasonable sum, depending on your DM.

Burns an attunement slot. And is an OP item for (partially) STR-dependent builds, as it allows them to just neglect STR and pump everything else into feats and other ASI, so some DMs may not allow easy access to it, uncommon or no. (even if it doesn't benefit the Wizard much because other classes will then ask for it too.)

(And, personally speaking, the rarity levels are all borked anyway [or at least the optional-ish rule linking prices to rarity], considering how game-changing some of the lower-rarity ones are, while some of the the higher-rarity ones are just plain useless.)

[Keravath]

He is saying that during each of those levels, you are missing those big, important, play altering spells. And that is the cost you pay. At those character levels you are missing out on what you would have if you had been a single class wizard.

This then goes back to my point on both how long those times in those levels will actually be, and how you personally cope with that cost.

As we can see, for some tables and folks it is no big deal. Both for others, it is. It is up to the OP to think on that and see how he predicts he will feel, etc.

I've played a knowledge cleric 1/ evoker wizard X up to level 8 at a table with another straight evoker wizard and, except for level 5/3rd level spells, I haven't noticed any significant issues with power bumps. Level 3 has a lot of very useful spells. Each other level has some useful and iconic spells but usually I found I had something else pretty much equally as good to cast as whatever the missing spells might have been. Keep in mind that the 1 cleric/ X wizard has exactly the same spell slots so upcasting is always possible AND at the levels where you first receive the next round of spells you only have ONE spell slot for the new spells at that level unlike level 5 where you pick up 2 3rd level spell slots.

So overall, in my experience in actual play, I haven't missed being one level behind in spells known since I could only cast one of them/day anyway (unless I use all arcane recovery points to replace it in which case I get two) though other folks may have other experiences.

[OverLordOcelot]

Heavy armor isn't that great a boon for most Wizards. Now not only do you need at least 13 Wisdom to multiclass, you also need at least 15 Strength (a much bigger deal to acquire) to use the best heavy armor, or you have to suck up the decreased tactical movement, which can have a big impact in battle. Suddenly, every fight (until you get D-Door to 'port back to your mounts) becomes a do or die, with no option for tactical withdrawal or falling back to a more advantageous position, as your enemies will almost always outspeed you. Granted, there's games where that's not an issue, but if your DM is playing with the kit gloves off, that's a big sacrifice to make. Plus, OP mentioned Expertise in Int-based skills early on in the list of pros, which makes it seem like they really want their Fire Genasi to fit the bill when it comes to the "learned Wizard" trope. And at that point, the heavy armor proficiency is moot, since only Knowledge domain will get you the Expertise.

Yeah, I think a lot of people play in campaigns that don't use tactical movement or pursuit, I would not want to be stuck at a 15' move rate. Also I think a lot of people treat invisibility as undetectability when it's not by RAW, the disadvantage on stealth rolls from heavy armor is a significant drawback if you're trying to do things like slip around invisibily. To use a forest gnome as an example, you can start with a stat array like 8 14 13 16 14 10 and have full movement and an AC of 17/18 depending on whether you want disadvantage on stealth, while the heavy armor variant has no choice about stealth and gets an AC 18 at first, going to 19 when they can afford splint, and both add another AC point when they can afford breastplate/half plate/plate armor (though medium armor gets there first). I don't think a single point of AC is worth giving up +2 on init and dex saves or dropping to 15' movement rate on a character who will usually be avoiding the front lines and who has shield for the times when he does get engaged, without even considering the direct benefits of knowledge cleric. And by taking a criminal background for stealth proficiency and losing another AC for chain shirt/breastplate, he is now better at not getting found while doing invisible wizard shenanigans than a standard wizard and MUCH better than the heavy armor version (especially if the heavy armor version doesn't bother with dex).


At OP, I've played full casters with a one or two level dip before, and generally speaking it's painless. Yeah you're a bit behind getting Fireball/Hypnotic Pattern/Haste/what have you, but you're looking at max two levels (or just one in your case) where you really feel behind. After that, higher and higher level spells are nice, but there's not quite the same jump, especially for an Evoker still getting full slot progression. Until you're Cleric 1/Wizard 16 and could have Meteor Swarm but don't, but again, that'll only last you one level, and that's assuming you even play that far. It's a fun dip, and I'd say go for it if you want.

I agree, the spell level drop is a little painful, but getting a non-mage-armor AC and expertise in the skills you're probably using a lot (Arcana and History) is definitely worthwhile. First level cleric spells also give some really good options - identify frees up an additional starting mage spell (mage armor is the first), bless, healing word, and sanctuary are all very useful even at higher levels, and guiding bolt/inflict wounds do some impressive damage at low levels. At fifth level your party will probably really like you, because while you don't bring fireballs, you do bring upcast bless for five people which is a LOT of damage over time and makes them happy. And guidance, mending, and light form a very useful set of cantrips to contemplate your mage setup.

[OverLordOcelot]

While I don't think the movement loss is as big an issue as you say (especially for a ranged character), this is easily solved with Gauntlets of Ogre Might, an uncommon magic item which should be purchasable in most major cities for a reasonable sum, depending on your DM. Or if your DM allows, playing as a warforged, this becomes a non-issue. Even better, since by level 17 you'd have a 22 base AC with no movement penalty nor strength requirement.

That's burning up one 'slot' of magic item that you could use on something else - even if you're not in a system like AL where there's a direct limit, you could opt to buy something else if you wanted. While the heavy armor guy is taking gauntlets of ogre power just to be able to move with his +2 AC over me, I can pick up a cloak of elvenkind (same rarity, actually on the evergreen list in current AL season) and I now have advantage on all of my stealth checks to his disadvantage while others have disadvantage to spot me - I'm now absurdly good at actually being undetected while invisible. Or I could get a cloak of protection to have the same AC as the heavy armor guy but also +1 to all saves. Or a pearl of power for one extra 1-3 spell slot per day. Or winged boots to be able to hover out of reach in large spaces (to be fair most DMs I know will severely limit availability of that).

I really don't see how heavy armor + gauntlets is supposed to be better than medium armor + cloak of protection. You get the same AC with both, but +1 on all saves if you take the medium armor combo. If you're planning to initiate grapples the gloves are better, but that's a rather bold choice for a cleric/mage.

[Reevh]

That's burning up one 'slot' of magic item that you could use on something else - even if you're not in a system like AL where there's a direct limit, you could opt to buy something else if you wanted. While the heavy armor guy is taking gauntlets of ogre power just to be able to move with his +2 AC over me, I can pick up a cloak of elvenkind (same rarity, actually on the evergreen list in current AL season) and I now have advantage on all of my stealth checks to his disadvantage while others have disadvantage to spot me - I'm now absurdly good at actually being undetected while invisible. Or I could get a cloak of protection to have the same AC as the heavy armor guy but also +1 to all saves. Or a pearl of power for one extra 1-3 spell slot per day. Or winged boots to be able to hover out of reach in large spaces (to be fair most DMs I know will severely limit availability of that).

I really don't see how heavy armor + gauntlets is supposed to be better than medium armor + cloak of protection. You get the same AC with both, but +1 on all saves if you take the medium armor combo. If you're planning to initiate grapples the gloves are better, but that's a rather bold choice for a cleric/mage.

In order to get that 17 AC without the cloak of protection, you need at least 14 DEX, a fairly tall order when you already need a minimum 13 WIS in addition to INT and CON (for concentration).

Now with all that said, I wouldn’t be likely to play a wizard as a front liner even armored. They just don’t have the hit doce to be able to last long up there. So for a non-front-liner, being medium armored with the ability to cast Shield is definitely good enough. I just dig both the idea of a high armor wizard (again, especially strong as a Warforged), and also the benefits from being either an Order or Forge Cleric. Knowledge is good too.

[OverLordOcelot]

In order to get that 17 AC without the cloak of protection, you need at least 14 DEX, a fairly tall order when you already need a minimum 13 WIS in addition to INT and CON (for concentration).

It's an easy order. I already posted a forest gnome stat line, vhuman in standard point buy can do 8 14 13 16 14 8 with a point left over, and most other races can do something similar.

[SLOTHRPG95]

In order to get that 17 AC without the cloak of protection, you need at least 14 DEX, a fairly tall order when you already need a minimum 13 WIS in addition to INT and CON (for concentration).

Now with all that said, I wouldn’t be likely to play a wizard as a front liner even armored. They just don’t have the hit doce to be able to last long up there. So for a non-front-liner, being medium armored with the ability to cast Shield is definitely good enough. I just dig both the idea of a high armor wizard (again, especially strong as a Warforged), and also the benefits from being either an Order or Forge Cleric. Knowledge is good too.


It's an easy order. I already posted a forest gnome stat line, vhuman in standard point buy can do 8 14 13 16 14 8 with a point left over, and most other races can do something similar.

In fact, basically any race but Dragonborn (and Fallen Aasimar, and maybe some other non-PHB?) you can manage a 15 in INT and CON to start, and 13 in WIS and DEX to start. At which point, you can buy up INT and DEX at your first ASI, get Resilient (CON) at your second, and get along just fine from there. Already, a 15/15/13/13/8/8 array pre-stat increase is just one point over in point buy, so anything that doesn't just give bonuses to STR and CHA gets you there. Or if you really need your 16 INT to start with, and hence are playing a race that has/can get an INT bonus, just don't play a Tiefling (or a Hobgoblin or Githyanki and maybe something else in non-PHB?). Plus, buying up DEX has residual benefits, like improving one of the most common saving throws, and boosting your initiative. The latter is especially useful for pretty much everyone.

[Theodoxus]

He is saying that during each of those levels, you are missing those big, important, play altering spells. And that is the cost you pay. At those character levels you are missing out on what you would have if you had been a single class wizard.

This then goes back to my point on both how long those times in those levels will actually be, and how you personally cope with that cost.

As we can see, for some tables and folks it is no big deal. Both for others, it is. It is up to the OP to think on that and see how he predicts he will feel, etc.

I've found it also depends if there are other, similar, spellcasters in the party. A cleric 1/Wizard x isn't going to feel too bad if there's a druid or another cleric in the party. But a sorcerer who's suddenly throwing out 2nd level spells at 3rd level, while the cleric/wizard is still stuck with 1st... kinda sucks. An upcast magic missile or burning hands doesn't really compete well with scorching ray... not to mention utilities, like invisibility or fly at 5th...

It's definitely a 'know your audience' kind of thing.

[8wGremlin]

I've found it also depends if there are other, similar, spellcasters in the party. A cleric 1/Wizard x isn't going to feel too bad if there's a druid or another cleric in the party. But a sorcerer who's suddenly throwing out 2nd level spells at 3rd level, while the cleric/wizard is still stuck with 1st... kinda sucks. An upcast magic missile or burning hands doesn't really compete well with scorching ray... not to mention utilities, like invisibility or fly at 5th...

It's definitely a 'know your audience' kind of thing.

But it also works the other way, a Sorcerer hoping that there low AC will keep them alive, whilst the wizard walks around in breastplate and shield, and a decent 19AC popping off 'Guidance' and 'Bless' and 'Healing word' who simply knows more about magic and nature and religion than you could ever possibly know. True they lag behind the big spells slightly, which might be 1 a day affairs, but honestly having more HP and more AC will keep you alive longer in the lower levels.

Know how you want to play, and have fun.

[LudicSavant]

But a sorcerer who's suddenly throwing out 2nd level spells at 3rd level, while the cleric/wizard is still stuck with 1st... kinda sucks. An upcast magic missile or burning hands doesn't really compete well with scorching ray...

Fun fact: When you first get Scorching Ray as a point buy character (+3 stat, +2 proficiency), a level 2 Magic Missile is better DPR against characters with AC 14 or more. Also better damage type, ignores cover, etc.