Should metamagic be free?

[clash]

What if metamagic didn't cost any sorcery points but was level gated instead so for example at level 3 you could choose one from the 1 sorcery point options. Then at 10 from the 2 point options and afb but whenever you get your last one a 3 point option. We would need to add options for 2 over equivalents and higher but I think it would make the sorcerer a lot more appealing if you could cast your very few spells really well all the time.

What do people think? Overpowered? Interesting?

[Nagog]

Interesting, but depending on implementation, could be overpowered. I'm more in favor of the Spell Points/Sorcery Points combination ruling. Turn unused spell slots into more opportunities for metamagic, and continue casting whatever spell you like for the requisite cost.

[JNAProductions]

What if metamagic didn't cost any sorcery points but was level gated instead so for example at level 3 you could choose one from the 1 sorcery point options. Then at 10 from the 2 point options and afb but whenever you get your last one a 3 point option. We would need to add options for 2 over equivalents and higher but I think it would make the sorcerer a lot more appealing if you could cast your very few spells really well all the time.

What do people think? Overpowered? Interesting?

Definitely too powerful.

[clash]

For the overpowered is the the cheap options you aste concerned with or just the latter ones? Are any of the 1 mana options really any better than an evokers sculpt spell except maybe subtle? And an evoker is still a wizard on top of that.

[Teaguethebean]

For the overpowered is the the cheap options you aste concerned with or just the latter ones? Are any of the 1 mana options really any better than an evokers sculpt spell except maybe subtle? And an evoker is still a wizard on top of that.

Well sorlock with two Eldritch blasts a turn every turn and when I want a spell like armor of agathys or Cure wounds it's good they are both bonus actions allowing an Eldritch blast every turn. Or my sorcadin who bonus action Booming blades everyturn at lv4

[intregus]

At My table we give sorcerers spell points and all meta magic options as well as increased spells known to 18 (so they can have At least 2 spells of every level) and they don't need components for any word spell they cast up to 5th level....

And at my table this makes them feel just right. None of the wizard players feel outclassed either. We are not a table of munchkins or power gamers though so keep that in mind.

I really like your idea though!

[InspectorG]

What if metamagic didn't cost any sorcery points but was level gated instead so for example at level 3 you could choose one from the 1 sorcery point options. Then at 10 from the 2 point options and afb but whenever you get your last one a 3 point option. We would need to add options for 2 over equivalents and higher but I think it would make the sorcerer a lot more appealing if you could cast your very few spells really well all the time.

What do people think? Overpowered? Interesting?

That limits choice. I may want Quicken as a first choice.

[Dork_Forge]

It shouldn't be free, that's far too potent and ripe for abuse.

If you want to let a sorcerer use metamagic more/generally buff them, you can just give them one free use of metamagic per x rest. Or Sorcerous Recovery: Once per day on a short rest you recover a number of Sorc points equal to half your level rounded up.

[Misterwhisper]

Permanent subtle spell at level 3...

No, not at all, that is crazy.

[darknite]

I'm a fan of reasonable limits to prevent spamming or dilution of a special power to the point that it becomes not-so-special.

[MrStabby]

For the overpowered is the the cheap options you aste concerned with or just the latter ones? Are any of the 1 mana options really any better than an evokers sculpt spell except maybe subtle? And an evoker is still a wizard on top of that.

If you are wanting to make an informed decision from a balance perspective never use a wizard as your point for comparison. Not universally, but commonly, the wizard is considered the most powerful class in the game, and at higher levels with a pretty wide margin. Thinking a decision is good because it bring a class' power level closer to that of the wizard is probably taking that class further from an average power level rather than closer to it.

[clash]

Permanent subtle spell at level 3...

No, not at all, that is crazy.

I mean ya there is lots of shenanigans you could potentially pull... in the right campaign. But at level 3 is it really going to be useful more than the 3 times a day that sorcery points give you anyways?


Well sorlock with two Eldritch blasts a turn every turn and when I want a spell like armor of agathys or Cure wounds it's good they are both bonus actions allowing an Eldritch blast every turn. Or my sorcadin who bonus action Booming blades everyturn at lv4

Granted EB would be a serious problem but at least it wouldnt show up until level 12 at the earliest as the sorcerer couldnt get quicken until level 10. Quicken in general might be the issue but I'm not sure... definetely something that would need to be figured out.


I'm a fan of reasonable limits to prevent spamming or dilution of a special power to the point that it becomes not-so-special.

But that would be what makes it special in my opinion. If you choose subtle then as a sorcerer harnessing raw magic you only need to think to make the spell happen. For empowered spell your spells are simply more potent. For careful spell your magic just doesnt effect allies in the same way. I think it would really make the sorcerer feel like they are actually unique.


If you are wanting to make an informed decision from a balance perspective never use a wizard as your point for comparison. Not universally, but commonly, the wizard is considered the most powerful class in the game, and at higher levels with a pretty wide margin. Thinking a decision is good because it bring a class' power level closer to that of the wizard is probably taking that class further from an average power level rather than closer to it.

I mean sure, wizards might be on the higher end of the spectrum, but this is just comparing it against one ability they get, at level 2 and is far from what makes the wizard as strong as they are and like it or not a wizard is the sorcerer's biggest competitor for class choice as they share most of the same spell list so it should at least be a reasonable choice.

[Teaguethebean]

Granted EB would be a serious problem but at least it wouldnt show up until level 12 at the earliest as the sorcerer couldnt get quicken until level 10. Quicken in general might be the issue but I'm not sure... definetely something that would need to be figured out.

Why wouldn't it be available at level 3 and while I'm at it what about twin. Every cantrip, healing word, haste, fly, holdperson, chromatic orb, blindness/deafness, invisibility, and mage armor are all twinned even if you only get that at lv17 I still think that ruins the action economy.

[Vogie]

The only way I'd let a metamagic be "free" for a caster at my table is if they were using it as a permanent spell alteration. For Example, replacing their Fire Bolt with "Twin Fire Bolt", or Fireball with Careful Fireball, and only that - no using the effect on other spells and the effect doesn't turn off.

Using Twin Fire Bolt will always require 2 targets... so if you're against a single target, you're either not using it, or that barbarian of yours is getting toasty.

[Aimeryan]

Quicken in a multiclass build. For pure Sorc Quicken is kinda poor, but Sorlock, Sorcadin...

Outside of that;

Twin you don't use that often - mostly for buffs since a vast majority of damage spells simply don't work with it (and why blast single target, anyway?)
Careful is weaker than Evoker's (which is free)
Distant, hah
Empowered, slight damage increase on average, eh
Extended, cheap anyway, used very infrequently
Heightened, most spells of worth have multiple saving throws, probably the strongest free option for a pure Sorc
Subtle, cheap anyway, might not be used that often, combat it depends on how often you get Counterspelle


So yeah, mostly just the Quicken issue. Heightened I kind of feel is fair, even if pretty nice. Subtle will be either a non-issue 90% of the time, very powerful the other 10%.

I could easily see Careful, Distant, Empowered, and Extended as being free. Twin, maybe. Heightened is too expensive as is, but probably shouldn't be free - maybe 1 point cost. Subtle, outside of combat free, but the strain of combat enforces the cost? Quicken, actually the issue is cantrips (Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast) - maybe just free for levelled spells.

[clash]

The only way I'd let a metamagic be "free" for a caster at my table is if they were using it as a permanent spell alteration. For Example, replacing their Fire Bolt with "Twin Fire Bolt", or Fireball with Careful Fireball, and only that - no using the effect on other spells and the effect doesn't turn off.

Using Twin Fire Bolt will always require 2 targets... so if you're against a single target, you're either not using it, or that barbarian of yours is getting toasty.

I had considered this is well, but sorcerer's get so few spells known I wasnt sure it would be an issue. That being said it would kinda suit the theme to have altered specifc altered spells.


Quicken in a multiclass build. For pure Sorc Quicken is kinda poor, but Sorlock, Sorcadin...

Outside of that;

Twin you don't use that often - mostly for buffs since a vast majority of damage spells simply don't work with it (and why blast single target, anyway?)
Careful is weaker than Evoker's (which is free)
Distant, hah
Empowered, slight damage increase on average, eh
Extended, cheap anyway, used very infrequently
Heightened, most spells of worth have multiple saving throws, probably the strongest free option for a pure Sorc
Subtle, cheap anyway, might not be used that often, combat it depends on how often you get Counterspelle


So yeah, mostly just the Quicken issue. Heightened I kind of feel is fair, even if pretty nice. Subtle will be either a non-issue 90% of the time, very powerful the other 10%.

I could easily see Careful, Distant, Empowered, and Extended as being free. Twin, maybe. Heightened is too expensive as is, but probably shouldn't be free - maybe 1 point cost. Subtle, outside of combat free, but the strain of combat enforces the cost? Quicken, actually the issue is cantrips (Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast) - maybe just free for levelled spells.

This is great feedback. The problem with reducing the cost for metamagic is my thoughts were that we would get rid of sorcery points completely, but maybe that isnt doable in a balanced and fun way.

Twin and quicken are definetely the ones I see as problematic but maybe I just need to rework them to set some reasonable boundries like you were suggesting. Heightened is only one target and only the first saving throw so I dont know if that would be a huge deal at that level.

Also if anyone has a link to some good homebrew metamagics that could expand the options a bit at higher levels for this idea, that would be great.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

All current options should have a 0 SP option. Well most.

Silent Spell
0 SP
You may remove the verbal or somatic component of a spell.

1 sp
You may remove the verbal and somatic component of a spell.

[Blood of Gaea]

In all honesty, this is one of the more absurdly overpowered suggestions I've seen. Of course, metamagic shouldn't be free, it's limited for a reason. You can break action economy, mess with the effects of your spells, etc etc.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

What if metamagic didn't cost any sorcery points but was level gated instead so for example at level 3 you could choose one from the 1 sorcery point options. Then at 10 from the 2 point options and afb but whenever you get your last one a 3 point option. We would need to add options for 2 over equivalents and higher but I think it would make the sorcerer a lot more appealing if you could cast your very few spells really well all the time.

What do people think? Overpowered? Interesting?

I think its OP.

Is there some problem with Sorcerer's you are trying to correct? Are they getting "out damaged" by the Ranger or something?