Sorlock going human or yuan-ti?

[samuraijaques]

Hey guys,

I'm playing a sorlock in an upcoming game thanks to the help and guidance of several members here and am stuck on whether I want to go yuan-ti or variant human.

Pros of yuan-ti:
Resistance to magic - (this is the big reason for me to pick the race in the first place)
Immunity to poison
Darkvision (kind of a big deal as well)
And a couple good innate spells

Pros of variant human:
Extra skill
And a feat so I can grab ritual caster for a familiar and a way to use my spells as rituals as well as potentially allowing me to artificially pad my spell list with useful rituals that I wont have to use my precious sorcerer spells known on.

So basically it's down to yuan-ti overpowered goodies vs. rituals and a familiar and honestly I'm torn. Theoretically I could take ritual caster on a yuan-ti but my ASI are already 2 levels behind and I'm not sure if it's worth delaying that another 4 levels or not.

Any suggestions?

[Teaguethebean]

I reccomend going yuan ti and getting rituals through Pact of the tome accessing them at the cost of a level but granting you all the yuan ti goodies.

[HappyDaze]

Does the roleplaying factor that Yuan-ti are a comparatively rare and totally emotionless race of murderous cultists matter at all?

[Chaos Jackal]

There's one more factor there, and that's the +2 Charisma yuan-ti grant (even if the Int bonus is largely wasted outside of possibly arcana proficiency).

Especially for Cha-based classes, going yuan-ti typically only has two issues.

One is the roleplaying implications, which may translate to actual in-game issues like being attacked by the city guard or mistrusted by the innkeeper (this largely depends on the standing of yuan-ti in your game's world, if it's a homebrew setting).

The other is that, well... it's a bit cheesy. Monster races aren't balanced, it says so in the very chapter of Volo's Guide that introduces them, and while yuan-ti aren't horribly overpowered (no race is), magic resistance on a PC right off the bat is quite powerful, and things like innate spellcasting and poison immunity are nothing to scoff at either. especially if they come in the same package.

Both of these might lead to your DM potentially not allowing yuan-ti, or cause more or less problematic restrictions to your interactions within his game.

From an optimizing perspective, I'd say yuan-ti all the way. But be mindful of potential consequences.

[samuraijaques]

I reccomend going yuan ti and getting rituals through Pact of the tome accessing them at the cost of a level but granting you all the yuan ti goodies.
Unfortunately if I did this I'd have to give up one of my invocations for book of ancient secrets and I need both of them more than I need a familiar or ritual spells.


Does the roleplaying factor that Yuan-ti are a comparatively rare and totally emotionless race of murderous cultists matter at all?
Nope, I'm going to be a largely failed yuan-ti in that i'm still a little too human. Going for a Crowley from good omens vibe where I was sent to subvert and deceive the humans and I liked the lifestyle so much that I kinda sided with them.


There's one more factor there, and that's the +2 Charisma yuan-ti grant (even if the Int bonus is largely wasted outside of possibly arcana proficiency).

Especially for Cha-based classes, going yuan-ti typically only has two issues.

One is the roleplaying implications, which may translate to actual in-game issues like being attacked by the city guard or mistrusted by the innkeeper (this largely depends on the standing of yuan-ti in your game's world, if it's a homebrew setting).

The other is that, well... it's a bit cheesy. Monster races aren't balanced, it says so in the very chapter of Volo's Guide that introduces them, and while yuan-ti aren't horribly overpowered (no race is), magic resistance on a PC right off the bat is quite powerful.

Both of these might lead to your DM potentially not allowing yuan-ti, or cause more or less problematic restrictions to your interactions within his game.

From an optimizing perspective, I'd say yuan-ti all the way. But be mindful of potential consequences.
Actually on my build the plus 2 cha only translates to an additional point in strength with point buy over the 1 I get from human. The rp implications I'm going to try and circumvent with mask of many faces for at will disguise self, high persuasion and if all else fails subtle magic charm person or suggestion. Honestly I think playing around it is going to be a lot of fun. The cheesiness is also a non issue as the game is between me and a couple other DMs and we're specifically just trying to cut loose and do whatever we want. The world we're playing in has pretty easily scaled difficulty.

Thanks for the replies guys, looking like yuan-ti is the right choice

[Millstone85]

Does the roleplaying factor that Yuan-ti are a comparatively rare and totally emotionless race of murderous cultists matter at all?I really like the Eberron approach to good yuan-ti. The shulassakar are part couatl.

[Mitsu]

Does the roleplaying factor that Yuan-ti are a comparatively rare and totally emotionless race of murderous cultists matter at all?

Why it should? PCs are special individuals in a world, they are heroes/antiheroes, if anyone is to be special/exception - it's PC.

It's rare for goblin to be good, for Yuan-Ti to wonder around world as adventurer, for Hobgoblin to become a Devotion Paladin, for Drow to be Chaotic Good etc. But it can happen in the world, as Player Characters as main story figures are best candidates to be those rare cases.

Also emotionless doesn't mean they have to be murderers. He can be cold, calulcating, fully-oportunistic mercenary/scholar that always takes the best bet for his interest and tries not to risk his neck too much. Since you don't feel shame, you can even kneel just to get what you want, you don't care. You calculate best result. That doesn't make him murderous. Jarlaxe is great example of that.

Also In my opinion it's better to roleplay rare races which leads to a lot of great memorable moments/dialogues/situation than being yet another dwarf, elf or human on which world reacts... with nothing as there is nothing special in that.

However, entering as Yuan-Ti pureblood to Waterdeep would lead to massive amounts of great roleplay situations, starting from scholars/wizards who would like to talk with such rare species, to lords who would like to keep an eye on him, to troubled inkeeper whos sign in front his keep says "everybody are welcome under Broken Pony" and can't refuse to rent room to that strange creature...

Also, what a great amount of roleplay fun when it comes to draconic races, snakes, other yuan-ti sub-races.

I always encounrage players to pick rare/monster races if they would like to- best moments in my mind are always with them.

[HappyDaze]

Why it should? PCs are special individuals in a world, they are heroes/antiheroes, if anyone is to be special/exception - it's PC.

It's rare for goblin to be good, for Yuan-Ti to wonder around world as adventurer, for Hobgoblin to become a Devotion Paladin, for Drow to be Chaotic Good etc. But it can happen in the world, as Player Characters as main story figures are best candidates to be those rare cases.

Also emotionless doesn't mean they have to be murderers. He can be cold, calulcating, fully-oportunistic mercenary/scholar that always takes the best bet for his interest and tries not to risk his neck too much. Since you don't feel shame, you can even kneel just to get what you want, you don't care. You calculate best result. That doesn't make him murderous. Jarlaxe is great example of that.

Also In my opinion it's better to roleplay rare races which leads to a lot of great memorable moments/dialogues/situation than being yet another dwarf, elf or human on which world reacts... with nothing as there is nothing special in that.

However, entering as Yuan-Ti pureblood to Waterdeep would lead to massive amounts of great roleplay situations, starting from scholars/wizards who would like to talk with such rare species, to lords who would like to keep an eye on him, to troubled inkeeper whos sign in front his keep says "everybody are welcome under Broken Pony" and can't refuse to rent room to that strange creature...

Also, what a great amount of roleplay fun when it comes to draconic races, snakes, other yuan-ti sub-races.

I always encounrage players to pick rare/monster races if they would like to- best moments in my mind are always with them.
And this is why we could likely never game together in a manner that we would both enjoy. The factors that you think shouldn't matter mean more to me than the game mechanics of the race.

[Mitsu]

And this is why we could likely never game together in a manner that we would both enjoy. The factors that you think shouldn't matter mean more to me than the game mechanics of the race.

What matters for me is fun at table, don't care about rest. It is still just a game to play, even if it's roleplaying, it's just a game.

Seems to me like some people block some races not only due to mechanics, but also because it's suppose to be rare race. Well, ok, I understand, so Player Character will still be rare, right? It's not like he will start to mean Yuan-Ti purebloods everywhere, no?

But you are correct, we have totally different view at what's fun and how flexible is world of roleplay game.

[Spiritchaser]

I’d go Yuan Ti, because human is going to be a lot more dull to RP

Internally what drives you? Are you completely emotionless?
Do you misunderstand/mistrust/manipulate/envy emotion?

maybe you actually felt something like love or fear or excitement once, and have spent your adult life trying to recapture that moment?

Maybe you were actually a throwback: a live birth, and fled your people because you didn’t fit. While you would be far more robotic than anyone else, you aren’t devoid of emotion (think in terms of Kelvin timeline Spock?)

Does the innkeeper mistrust you? Do you care?

Does the party mistrust you? Maybe that could be useful. Maybe that could be fun.

From a mechanical point of view you’re playing a class that IMO can be ok with human but I’d only go human if you’re willing to make one of your invocations Devil’s sight.

Darkvision of some kind is a huge deal.

Also magic and poison resistance rocks.

[Keravath]

Keep in mind that Yuan-ti pureblood pass very easily for human as long as they keep their darkvision and poison immunity secret.

VGtM: "Because purebloods can easily pass as human, their most important function is as agents of the yuan-ti in the outside world. They can live incognito among humans as diplomats, infiltrators, and spies."

From a roleplay perspective a Yuan-ti pureblood IS human. They can have a few snake type features, perhaps some scaly patches, that they could pass off as signs of a draconic heritage (especially if they are a draconic sorcerer as well).

The Magic Resistance can be very useful against enemy spell casters however many attacks from monsters aren't actually considered magical unless the text says so. For example, a basilisk petrifying gaze is magical while a medusa's petrifying gaze is not. In one case, the yuan-ti could use its magic resistance and in the other case it would not.

Here is the clarification from the Sage Advice compendium:

Is the breath weapon of a dragon magical?
If you cast antimagic field, don armor of invulnerability, or use another feature of the game that protects against magical or non-magical effects, you might ask yourself, “Will this protect me against a dragon’s breath?” The breath weapon of a typi-cal dragon isn’t considered magical, so antimagic field won’t help you but armor of invulnerability will.

You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:
• the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures
• the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect

In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about. When a rule refers to something being magical, it’s referring to that second type. Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:

• Is it a magic item?
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
• Is it a spell attack?
• Is it fueled by the use of spell slots?
• Does its description say it’s magical?

If your answer to any of those questions is yes, the feature is magical.

Let’s look at a white dragon’s Cold Breath and ask our-selves those questions. First, Cold Breath isn’t a magic item. Second, its description mentions no spell. Third, it’s not a spell attack. Fourth, the word “magical” appears no-where in its description.

Our conclusion: Cold Breath is not considered a magical game effect, even though we know that dragons are amazing, supernatural beings."

So a basilisk gaze attack is magical because the creature magically turns to stone while a medusa's is not because magic is not mentioned anywhere in the stat block.

This means that there are quite a few effects, dragon breath, mindflayer mind blast, most other breath weapons (e.g. mephits), ghost visage and possession attacks, banshee wail and many others where magic resistance isn't applicable. So the usefulness of magic resistance can often depend on the monsters/opponents that your DM tends to throw at the party.

[Max_Killjoy]

Long ago I got to play a yuan-ti, whichever subtype was obviously reptilian but had a fully humanoid body (it's been a long time and I feel like they've shuffled this around a bit) in a shortish campaign. The other players were split between "she's an agent of evil" and "she must be a Drrzzt", assuming she was either totally evil, or self-exiled and totally good -- it was an aggravating bit of meta-knowledge affecting the PCs due to the players' preconceptions.

Really, she'd have best been described as "neutral ambivalent". "Good? Evil? I just left home because I don't care about all that cult garbage, why would I want to put all that effort into destroying the world -- that's where all my stuff is!"

[Millstone85]

Also In my opinion it's better to roleplay rare races which leads to a lot of great memorable moments/dialogues/situation than being yet another dwarf, elf or human on which world reacts... with nothing as there is nothing special in that.
Seems to me like some people block some races not only due to mechanics, but also because it's suppose to be rare race. Well, ok, I understand, so Player Character will still be rare, right? It's not like he will start to mean Yuan-Ti purebloods everywhere, no?Indeed. Indeed. However, VGtM wisely reminds DMs that they also have the option to reinterpret the rare/monstrous race as being on the same level as dwarves and elves.Consider how common orc, goblin, and similar adventurers are in your setting. Are they regarded as no stranger than elves or dwarves? Are they met with suspicion? The role these races play in your setting should determine the kinds of reactions that such characters meet.

Don't be afraid to push things to an extreme. An orc character might have to venture into town in disguise or remain in the wilderness, for fear of imprisonment or mob violence. Be sure to talk to the group about how such characters can expect the world to treat them. Some players like the challenge of taking on an outcast, but don't set up one expectation and deliver another.

You can establish a monstrous creature as just another culture in your campaign, one that has alliances and rivalries with humans, elves, and dwarves. A hobgoblin kingdom might serve as a buffer between a human kingdom and a blighted region overrun by the spawn of Kyuss. Kobolds might be city builders, the architects of grand, heavily fortified edifices, which other folk dwell in for a price. The cultural notes in chapter 1 are the standard D&D depiction of these creatures, but by no means do they define them for your campaign. Use them as a starting point for your own ideas.Humanoid sacrifices might be regarded as a thing of the past by most yuan-ti, now content with their current forms, or holding the belief that worthy souls are reincarnated from purebloods to malisons, from malisons to abominations, and from abominations to serpentine outsiders (much as Eberron's shulassakar believe). Still, plenty others would join dark cults to hasten the process.

[Vknight]

Does the roleplaying factor that Yuan-ti are a comparatively rare and totally emotionless race of murderous cultists matter at all?

No not at all.
Mostly because its silly and fun

[samuraijaques]

Yeah I've always been of the camp that you should do it if it sounds fun and you want to and I as the DM will help you figure out why it works. In this particular instance it's definitely okay as I have talked to the DM and he has said literally anything goes.

I'm really looking forward to playing a yuan-ti. I've never actually gotten the chance to before now.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

For that matter, it's worth noting that Volo's explicitly says some Purebloods are throwbacks who still feel twinges of emotion. They consider this shameful (and so do the rest of their people). Sounds like a good contributing reason to want to leave home and adventure to me. Of course, how much of a throwback you are is up to the player and DM to work out. If you want you could still be mostly emotionless.

[sithlordnergal]

Does the roleplaying factor that Yuan-ti are a comparatively rare and totally emotionless race of murderous cultists matter at all?

Why should it matter? So what if most Yuan-Ti are rare and emotionless. Nothing says you can't just play a Yuan-Ti Bard that fully feels all emotions and dislikes harming others. I think that would make things more interesting because then you're fighting against the racism against the NPCs.

No different then playing a Druid that chooses to use metal armor. Nothing outside of a small bit of fluff that says Druids find its a taboo prevents it. If a player wants to break the taboo, let them.


As for the race choice itself, I'd go Yuan-ti.

[Eriol]

For that matter, it's worth noting that Volo's explicitly says some Purebloods are throwbacks who still feel twinges of emotion. They consider this shameful (and so do the rest of their people). Sounds like a good contributing reason to want to leave home and adventure to me. Of course, how much of a throwback you are is up to the player and DM to work out. If you want you could still be mostly emotionless.
I went completely the other way with this for my Wild Magic Yuan-ti sorcerer, but with a twist: She was the subject of "weird experiments" that gave her Wild Magic powers, but also turned her to be wild with emotion as well. She empathetic, mercurial, and borderline insane. Think Dr. Harleen Quinzel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley_Quinn)... she can be stable enough, and can plan, etc, but she reacts just "weird" sometimes. She escaped from her people because they'd kill her on sight for being an abomination. That's my Yuan-ti.


But it's just as "right" to play somebody more emotionless. Go for it. If you have even the slightest "thread" as to why your character's personality is such, take it. There are eloquent dwarves, and gruff elves. An entire race has tendencies in D&D, and Yuan-ti are one of the more "you'd better have a great reason why they're an exception," but you don't necessarily need to be subject to them.

[Millstone85]

She escaped from her people because they'd kill her on sight for being an abomination.You might want to use a different word. Abominations are at the top of the yuan-ti caste system, except in the rare occurrence of an anathema.

Then again, do yuan-ti call themselves by such names?

[Snowbluff]

On playing a Yuan Ti with little emotions, I would strong suggest watching Equilibrium for reference. I play a Paladin/Barb Yuan Ti, and I straight up made him look like Christian Bale. :smalltongue:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKpK6SFKTDw

[Max_Killjoy]

I was once asked to guest-play an "Archon" in a vampire campaign for a session... I based all the affectation, or lack thereof, on Agent Smith from the Matrix... actually managed to get through an entire hours-long session without once cracking a smile, laughing, or letting any inflection into my voice other than that cold, slightly sneering, disdainful monotone.

If you want to do emotionless, you can do worse than watching Agent Smith clips before each session.

[KRSW]

Purely mechanical, yuan ti is way better imo. The magic resistance alone drastically outweighs anything else that pretty much any other race could give you. The only downside is no skill proficiency but like innate spellcasting, darkvision, magic resistance, poison immunity is VERY good.

For the people saying the game is for fun and that people should be allowed to play whatever they want:

Some people care about the adventure being believable in the game world.
Monstrous races do terrible things in the game world and are seen as monsters/evil/whatever because most of the time their deity commands them to do evil. And it isn't like us in the real world, it is literally a real curse or in their blood and their deities are real and can send avatars of themselves to walk the earth.
Having a group of non monstrous races run around with a member of a monstrous race should most definitely have a very good reason to let it follow them around because if they don't it causes the adventure to be less believable.
In this case, yuan-ti, like others have mentioned have gained power at the expense of the other races. If in your campaign that isn't the case then sure, but again some people enjoy the in game lore and have expectations of what certain races in the game are like.
For some people those expectations add a lot of fun to the game, and without them the game becomes much less fun.

With that being said, a lot of the time I think the "some people" I have been talking about are the Dungeon Masters anyways, and what you can play in the game is entirely up to them anyways.
If they aren't the DM then perhaps they should be.

Its very similar to how a DM rules certain things like illusions, some people really like illusions and if the DM interprets the rules in a way that makes illusions really underpowered/different then the game would probably be a lot less fun for the players who enjoy using illusions.

[samuraijaques]

Definitely going for more of a Crowley vibe than the emotionless angle.

Had a thought though. Would yuan ti be better than drow half elf for elven accuracy? Elven accuracy and the expanded crit range from hexblade curse gives me a 30 percent chance to crit which is pretty outstanding.

Thoughts?

[Keravath]

Purely mechanical, yuan ti is way better imo. The magic resistance alone drastically outweighs anything else that pretty much any other race could give you. The only downside is no skill proficiency but like innate spellcasting, darkvision, magic resistance, poison immunity is VERY good.

For the people saying the game is for fun and that people should be allowed to play whatever they want:

Some people care about the adventure being believable in the game world.
Monstrous races do terrible things in the game world and are seen as monsters/evil/whatever because most of the time their deity commands them to do evil. And it isn't like us in the real world, it is literally a real curse or in their blood and their deities are real and can send avatars of themselves to walk the earth.
Having a group of non monstrous races run around with a member of a monstrous race should most definitely have a very good reason to let it follow them around because if they don't it causes the adventure to be less believable.
In this case, yuan-ti, like others have mentioned have gained power at the expense of the other races. If in your campaign that isn't the case then sure, but again some people enjoy the in game lore and have expectations of what certain races in the game are like.
For some people those expectations add a lot of fun to the game, and without them the game becomes much less fun.

With that being said, a lot of the time I think the "some people" I have been talking about are the Dungeon Masters anyways, and what you can play in the game is entirely up to them anyways.
If they aren't the DM then perhaps they should be.

Its very similar to how a DM rules certain things like illusions, some people really like illusions and if the DM interprets the rules in a way that makes illusions really underpowered/different then the game would probably be a lot less fun for the players who enjoy using illusions.

I'd just like to point out that "their deity commands them to do evil" is a statement that may or may not be true depending on game world. Even D&D doesn't necessarily have avatars of dieties strolling around. The dieties may or may not apply direct guidance to worshippers. In the case of Yuan-Ti, most of their dieties aren't even active in the world either sleeping or trapped.

Anyway, in many worlds, even members of monstrous races worship evil gods because they choose to do so. This means that individual members of these races can choose to do something else. Each member may very well not be identical to any other in terms of their devotion or beliefs no matter what role the dieties may play in the game world. All of the lore in the books carefully describe what "most" members of each race are like either due to nature or upbringing leaving much room in the game world for atypical members of any race. (Drizzt is the classic D&D example of this).

In the case of choosing Yuan-Ti, it is also made very clear in the descriptions that some or all of the Yuan-Ti purebloods can easily pass as human. It is a key element of Yuan-Ti culture and strategy. They may have agents integrated into any government or organization. As a result, Yuan-Ti specifically provide no difficulties in terms of mingling with a human party since they are unlikely to be recognized by anyone. Other monstrous races run into greater issues with racism since they are essentially visible minorities. It is up to the DM to figure out how socialized goblins/kobolds/orcs/drow might be treated if they are a member of an adventuring party.

[KRSW]

I'd just like to point out that "their deity commands them to do evil" is a statement that may or may not be true depending on game world. Even D&D doesn't necessarily have avatars of dieties strolling around. The dieties may or may not apply direct guidance to worshippers. In the case of Yuan-Ti, most of their dieties aren't even active in the world either sleeping or trapped.

Anyway, in many worlds, even members of monstrous races worship evil gods because they choose to do so. This means that individual members of these races can choose to do something else. Each member may very well not be identical to any other in terms of their devotion or beliefs no matter what role the dieties may play in the game world. All of the lore in the books carefully describe what "most" members of each race are like either due to nature or upbringing leaving much room in the game world for atypical members of any race. (Drizzt is the classic D&D example of this).

In the case of choosing Yuan-Ti, it is also made very clear in the descriptions that some or all of the Yuan-Ti purebloods can easily pass as human. It is a key element of Yuan-Ti culture and strategy. They may have agents integrated into any government or organization. As a result, Yuan-Ti specifically provide no difficulties in terms of mingling with a human party since they are unlikely to be recognized by anyone. Other monstrous races run into greater issues with racism since they are essentially visible minorities. It is up to the DM to figure out how socialized goblins/kobolds/orcs/drow might be treated if they are a member of an adventuring party.

That's all true, I was just pointing out why someone might not enjoy playing a campaign with a PC playing a monstrous race, not that they can't be played in a way that makes sense to have an adventurer party run around doing stuff with them.

Edit: it all just boils down to expectations really

[Eriol]

You might want to use a different word. Abominations are at the top of the yuan-ti caste system, except in the rare occurrence of an anathema.

Then again, do yuan-ti call themselves by such names?
Fair point, and good question. I'd think they'd be "most honored ones" or "paragons of form" or something.