OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Fish]

Woohoo!

Just as I happened to be passing. Nice.

This was not the ending for Gontor that I was expecting, but it’s no less awesome. It really makes me wonder if my assumptions about the final end of the story will be similarly overturned.

[Laserlight]

"Get the legs, boys!" YES!

[Neoriceisgood]

Can't say I'll miss that guy.

Now someone fix Durkon from being stoned.

[Landis963]

"I'll move to censure once we're back in session." This was the person that pointed out the log loophole, yes? So he's probably well aware that it'll take weeks to make a new table for the meeting to reconvene anyway, at which point "censuring" an adventuring party for saving their lives and the rest of the world is not going to be high on the list of priorities. (And even if due diligence requires that the censure be carried out, it's not even going to rate the term "slap on the wrist.")

EDIT: Not the same guy, but still, rules lawyering FTW!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Minrah has the best punchline, and it doesn't involve words.:smallamused:

[Aetius]

So the rune of law is gone but the stoning is still in effect. Seems unfair but is actually consistent with the rules we heard so far, isn't it?

But at least we know one reason why Durkon didn't attack the table directly. The sunlight did matter.

A question about the mechanics though: What is "don't let him turn into mist" supposed to mean? Can't he do that while beeing in the sunlight or while grappled?

Edit: Also, why is Dvalins cleric asking if she should do something instead of dusting the vampire? I'd imagine she's not pro vampire and right now there doesn't seam to be much stalling bureaucracy going on.

[HorizonWalker]

I'm a little sad the real Gontor Hammerfell is dead for real, but oh well.

[chy03001]

So... did Gontor burn up or did he mist away?

[eilandesq]

Grrrrr. He laid hands on Mama Thundershield. I'm down with "dragged by a mob and slowly burned to death by sunlight" as the appropriate punishment.

I'm assuming that there is no "no takebacks" rule in this environment, and with the domination gone that voting to confirm the interference and to re-take the vote on the main issue would not be problematic.

[chiefwaha]

I love the thought that instead of pictures on the fridge, Durkon had Sigdi put up food ordinances.

[kenlund]

No longer able to hide behind the law...a fitting end.
I think there is still one vampire left. Or did I miss her getting killed?

[eilandesq]

Burned up--death by sunlight is an immediate permakill, so the coffin situation is irrelevant.

[SirKazum]

So... did Gontor burn up or did he mist away?

He mist his opportunity to escape.

[UristMcRandom]

So... did he burn up or did he mist away?

Given the lack of glowy eyes in the dust, I think we can safely call Gontor Hammerfell deceased.

Amazing work, Giant. This whole storyline's payoff has just been a series of absolute winners. Beautiful art, and beautiful writing.

[Tarthalion]

Poor Gontor. His last words will haunt me.

[Brookshw]

Who's that last vamp tossed into the light? Don't remember him....

[Peelee]

Clan Cobalt elder is my favorite (and maybe looks great for his age?).

Also, I can't help but wonder if the council will indeed shrink now, if only of their own free will; I was expecting the vote to be put on hold for the rest of the comic, but if the dominated elders don't show up to the re-formed meeting, could they withdraw?

[Keltest]

Whew. I was concerned there for a bit that Sigdi would bite it here. Taunting the enemy is all well and good, but theres no need to expose yourself to their attacks to do it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

No longer able to hide behind the law...a fitting end.
I think there is still one vampire left. Or did I miss her getting killed?

Curly misted out last update.

[Schroeswald]

Hooray! Well, R.I.P. Sandy, she didn’t have a name and so she’s dead (most likely).

[Herr Doktor]

Wait, did the vampire burn up; he looked like he misted away.

[Aetius]

I'm assuming that there is no "no takebacks" rule in this environment

So you are not operating under the assumption that the single most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it is probably the right guess?

[JT]

Minrah RULES!!!

[DougTheHead]

I love the detail of one of Shirra's twin sons smiling at Logann's sister as she casts Bull's Strength on him. It makes me wonder if there's a relationship there, but whether there is or not, it's just a great little instance of everyone in this big extended community pitching in to help wherever they can.

[Keltest]

Wait, did the vampire burn up; he looked like he misted away.

He left his armor behind. That's consistent with Malack getting dusted instead of misting.

[endiku]

pure awesome!

thanks Giant!

[Mith]

This is why I love dwarves.

[Sylian]

This is why I love dwarves.I can't help but notice that this vampire is still around: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1168.html

Will she be destroyed next strip or will she escape, I wonder?

[hroþila]

Farewell, Sandy! :(
I wonder if Curly will survive this specifically to give all those dwarves a good reason not to join the Order in their quest.

Can you actually prevent a vampire from misting away, or is that indicative of either a house rule or some fancy item/spell?

[Khay]

Unless I missed something, Hel is down to two clerics, right? Curly and the replacement High Priest Frontarchess (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html)? I wonder if that one is going to show up in the epilogue...

[2D8HP]

New sport, vampire dwarf tossing!

[Ortho]

Farewell, Sandy! :(
I wonder if Curly will survive this specifically to give all those dwarves a good reason not to join the Order in their quest.

Can you actually prevent a vampire from misting away, or is that indicative of either a house rule or some fancy item/spell?

I don't think vampires can turn to mist while in direct sunlight.

[Keltest]

Farewell, Sandy! :(
I wonder if Curly will survive this specifically to give all those dwarves a good reason not to join the Order in their quest.

Can you actually prevent a vampire from misting away, or is that indicative of either a house rule or some fancy item/spell?

A vampire held in direct sunlight is disoriented. They can move, or they can attack, but they cant do anything else. The "or" is deliberate there, since normally there are some combinations of both you can do. It also only takes two rounds total to destroy a vampire that way.

[chiefwaha]

I don't think vampires can turn to mist while in direct sunlight.

They can, but they only get one action in sunlight and are destroyed the next round. Misting is a standard action. Basically they had to get him into the light and grappled before he misted otherwise he'd be able to escape

[hroþila]

I don't think vampires can turn to mist while in direct sunlight.


A vampire held in direct sunlight is disoriented. They can move, or they can attack, but they cant do anything else. The "or" is deliberate there, since normally there are some combinations of both you can do. It also only takes two rounds total to destroy a vampire that way.
I see. Thanks!

[grandpheonix]

So who's the vampire that popped up right above the vampires dead body thing?

[Flying Turtle]

I love the detail of one of Shirra's twin sons smiling at Logann's sister as she casts Bull's Strength on him. It makes me wonder if there's a relationship there, but whether there is or not, it's just a great little instance of everyone in this big extended community pitching in to help wherever they can.

There will be a relationship when my fan fic is done. Let the unnecessary shipping begin!

[Resileaf]

And thus, despite everything, the skylight wins in the end!

[Luna_Mayflower]

What happened to due process?! They just lynched him!

[Fyraltari]

That is a dark title... :smalleek:


A question about the mechanics though: What is "don't let him turn into mist" supposed to mean? Can't he do that while beeing in the sunlight or while grappled?
I’m guessing the sunlight. He also seemed unable to level drain them.



Probably Lawful (and Good but given her chosen deity, mostly Lawful) enough to be disturbed by a lynch mob. She doesn’t know about most of what those vampires did.
[QUOTE=chy03001;24079151]So... did Gontor burn up or did he mist away?
He went the way of his grandsire, burning while powerlessly screaming.

No longer able to hide behind the law...a fitting end.
I think there is still one vampire left. Or did I miss her getting killed?
She bolted out as soon as she couldn’t see the writing on the walls.

Who's that last vamp tossed into the light? Don't remember him....
No-Name of the Bleed of the Stone, Durkon* sent her to second Gontor*, we last saw her gloating to Minrah after sending Not-Thad to the Plane of Infinite Painful Slopes.

[Resileaf]

So who's the vampire that popped up right above the vampires dead body thing?

Minrah just threw her into the light so she'd also get destroyed by the sunlight.

[Fish]

Now it makes sense why Sigdi was taunting Gontor. It used up his actions so the Family could swoop in and park him in a sunbeam before he got another turn.

[Hiro Quester]

Who's that last vamp tossed into the light? Don't remember him....

Green hair and purple coat? He’s a minor dwarf vampire; the one with the final word here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html

[NNescio]

Green hair and purple coat? He’s a minor dwarf vampire; the one with the final word here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html

She, I think?

[eilandesq]

So you are not operating under the assumption that the single most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it is probably the right guess?

In this case, I'm thinking that the fact that Loki had had to explicitly establish that rule for the Godsmoot indicates that it wasn't part of Robert's Rules of Order (or the dwarvish equivalent) in the Stickverse.

[CriticalFailure]

Minrah continues to be the very best...

Great death for Vampire Gontor, it's always a classic to see a villain defeated by their iconic age old weakness and what could strike more fear in the heart of a caster than hearing "OK, that'll be 10 grapple checks against your cmd this round?"

[eilandesq]

What happened to due process?! They just lynched him!

Hey now--a censure is coming. Have faith in the process. #HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Schroeswald]

She, I think?

Yeah, she has the rounded bottom(a bit covered up by her sash thing), and breasts.

[Zhorn]

Giant, comics like your are the reason I love d&d so much. Keep up the awesome work :smalltongue:

[Psychronia]

Looks like the stoning is gonna stick for a while, even with the rules down. Oh well, this still worked out.

In a much less internal sense this time, Durkon's extended family once again overwhelms and destroys a vampire. Even better, this time Mama Thundershield gets the one-liners.

...
I wonder what Dwarven Food ordinances are like?

[Debrek]

I just noticed his still smoking amulet, and it appears Sigdi noticed it too.

some significance?

[Fyraltari]

What happened to due process?! They just lynched him!

Legitimate defense, he was threatening to (and had the means to) kill aound twenty people while in the middle of assaulting a Defenseless Old LadyTM, not to mention the hostile action taken against a body of dwarfish government. And they had no mean to safely restrain him. That's an open-and-shut* case.


*That means easily winnable, right? Like you open the case and immediately shut it because one perty has clearly no leg to stand on?

[Snails]

What happened to due process?! They just lynched him!

It probably is legal under dwarven law to grapple and hold someone who just made a public declaration of intent to commit mass murder to persons present.

Is it their fault the dangerous individual happens to be a vampire?

[Fyraltari]

I just noticed his still smoking amulet, and it appears Sigdi noticed it too.

some significance?

It's not smoking and she is taking a moment of pause after a clos call with death. Is nobody going to heal her?

[Fish]

That's an open-and-shut* case.

*That means easily winnable, right? Like you open the case and immediately shut it because one perty has clearly no leg to stand on?
“Winnable” depends on which side you’re on. It’s more like “the outcome is obvious and it won’t take long to conclude.” You could speak of an open-and-shut case that goes against you as well.

[Squire Doodad]

I can't help but wonder if there's a dwarven news outlet that'd spin this the wrong way :smalleek:...
"Mafia Family "Thundershield Clan" Appears at Council Meeting; Attacks, Dusts Vampire Observers".

[CriticalFailure]

Wait do you make grapple checks against CMD in D&D?

[gatemansgc]

Curly misted out last update.

wow, good eyes! i actually had to go back and look closely at every panel.

page 2 panel 1 for others who are curious.

[Fyraltari]

“Winnable” depends on which side you’re on. It’s more like “the outcome is obvious and it won’t take long to conclude.” You could speak of an open-and-shut case that goes against you as well.

Thank you.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm guessing the High Priestess of Hel (over in the Godsmoot) is just going to switch to being a pacifist once this is all done. Much simpler that way, and less likely to get you killed.

[Furious J]

She bolted out as soon as she couldn’t see the writing on the walls.


And to think that normally, it's the presence of writing on the wall that implies a bad end. Very nice, Fyraltari. :smallbiggrin:

[flat_footed]

It's not smoking and she is taking a moment of pause after a clos call with death. Is nobody going to heal her?

Yeah, it looks like those two lines are just the string the amulet hung off of.

[Jasdoif]

Wait do you make grapple checks against CMD in D&D?CMD doesn't exist in 3.5 ; grapple checks are usually opposed by others' grapple checks.

[Fyraltari]

And to think that normally, it's the presence of writing on the wall that implies a bad end. Very nice, Fyraltari. :smallbiggrin:

Why, thank you.

[Krakes]

So this might be a dumb question, but shouldn't it be obvious to the other gods that Hel has been cheating by now?

[137beth]

Whelp, after all the arguments about why Durkon broke the ceiling instead of hitting the table directly, it turned out my initial guess was right. He broke the ceiling to allow other dwarves to hold the vampires under the light.



So this might be a dumb question, but shouldn't it be obvious to the other gods that Hel has been cheating by now?

I don't think she is actually cheating, just trying to find loopholes in the rules. She considered actually cheating by killing Durkon in the middle of the fight, but Thor and Loki arrived to make sure she didn't.

[CriticalFailure]

CMD doesn't exist in 3.5 ; grapple checks are usually opposed by others' grapple checks.

oopsies. Well, the point still stands.

[hroþila]

So this might be a dumb question, but shouldn't it be obvious to the other gods that Hel has been cheating by now?
As far as I can tell, she hasn't cheated. She has used her clerics to interfere with a process that is not subject to Godsmoot law, as gods are wont to do.

[Fyraltari]

So this might be a dumb question, but shouldn't it be obvious to the other gods that Hel has been cheating by now?

She hasn't. Ain't no rule stopping her from interfering with a bunch of dwarfs vting on things beyond their ken. If Dvalin wants to listen to what mortals think, that's his prerogative but it is not part of the Gods' agreement. She was about to cheat but Thor barged in to haggle over souls first.

Edit: hroþila'd.

[xroads]

So this might be a dumb question, but shouldn't it be obvious to the other gods that Hel has been cheating by now?

If anything, I wonder if Thor might have cheated a bit there with the return flight of the hammer. Was he allowed to guide it's path? And presuming he did cheat, will there be repercussions for it?

[HandofShadows]

Don't let any of the fanged ones leave. :smallcool:

[Schroeswald]

So why isn’t Logann up here? He was next to the entrance when we last saw him and he still hasn’t made it through.

[Fyraltari]

So, does Gontor*'s death automatically unsommon Likeable Deathworm?


So why isn’t Logann up here? He was next to the entrance when we last saw him and he still hasn’t made it through.
He's blind. He's probably sitting outside waiting for someone to cure him.

[Morquard]

OMG, that's so awesome! DWARVES ARE AWESOME! you hear me!?

[Worldsong]

I knew there was going to be at least one person suggesting that Gontor misted out. Having checked the 3.5e SRD it does look like a vampire exposed to sunlight is rendered unable to mist out. Makes sense since if they could mist out and slip into a crack even when exposed to their greatest weakness killing a vampire would become even more of a nuisance than it already is.

Also I like how a lot of us forum-goers were putting money on Durkon because "This book is about Durkon" only for The Giant to remind us that part of Durkon's story is his family.

And the Exarch died as he lived... ranting impotently at things he couldn't change. His entire plan was based around avoiding a direct conflict to instead abuse the rules to win, so the moment that he tried to make use of the fact that the rules were no longer in place his fate was sealed. If he'd kept a cool head he could have realized that he'd be better off misting and running away, regrouping and figuring out a new plan. Of course the odds of him being able to find a way to win at this point were very low at best but even if he couldn't fulfil Hel's plan he could at least survive, and maybe build up a gathering of followers for Hel so the goddess would have some amount of devotion amongst the mortals.

So there's now two vampires left, one who's stuck at the Godsmoot and one who fled the council meeting before they could get thrown into the sunlight (there might be others but they're the only ones who have been shown to survive so far). However with both Durkon and Guntor no longer being vampires it's almost certain that they're no longer thralls (that is, controlled by their sire). Both Greg and the Exarch turned out to be willing to go along with Hel's plan not because dwarven vampires automatically do what Hel wants them to do but because their personalities made them willing to go along with the plan (Greg because Durkon had a suppressed grudge against his fellow dwarves, Exarch because... I got the feeling he just was too eager to follow orders).

I wonder if those two vampires now being their own person will change anything? The one at the Godsmoot wasn't a dwarf, so it could be that she has no connection to Hel at all at this point.

...Hmmm. Could the way for this arc to end be that by delaying the vote for long enough that they could sever the connection between Hel and the vampire at the Godsmoot her vote is made null and the gods voting against destroying the world win? That would also mean that Dvalin can tell the council that he no longer needs their council, so even with a broken table they can still formally end the meeting and allow Durkon to be depetrified.

[gatemansgc]

So why isn’t Logann up here? He was next to the entrance when we last saw him and he still hasn’t made it through.

he's still blinded, i guess.

[ASCIInerd73]

If anything, I wonder if Thor might have cheated a bit there with the return flight of the hammer. Was he allowed to guide it's path? And presuming he did cheat, will there be repercussions for it?

He likely did not cheat with the hammer. The art of the hammer turning around and flying back is the same as in #1160 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1160.html), so that was probably just the hammer doing it's regular returning.

And, even if he did cheat and nudge the hammer a little bit, the gods probably wouldn't notice because, according to Hel, they're all busy looking at the channeling of Dvalin inside the room.

[denthor]

New sport, vampire dwarf tossing!

No one tosses a dwarf.

[Peelee]

So, does Gontor*'s death automatically unsommon Likeable Deathworm?

My money is on that creature having the scientific name Defeaticus Offscreenicus.

[Fyraltari]

I see no reason why it would be against the rules for Thor to throw a hammer consecrated to him at some stones. After all, the Church of Thor cannot be held liable if a roof just so happens to collapse over where the dwarves chose to put a table (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html).

EDIT:

No one tosses a dwarf.
It's actually permissible as long as you don't tell any elf.

[Schroeswald]

So there's now two vampires left, one who's stuck at the Godsmoot and one who fled the council meeting before they could get thrown into the sunlight (there might be others but they're the only ones who have been shown to survive so far). However with both Durkon and Guntor no longer being vampires it's almost certain that they're no longer thralls (that is, controlled by their sire). Both Greg and the Exarch turned out to be willing to go along with Hel's plan not because dwarven vampires automatically do what Hel wants them to do but because their personalities made them willing to go along with the plan (Greg because Durkon had a suppressed grudge against his fellow dwarves, Exarch because... I got the feeling he just was too eager to follow orders).

I wonder if those two vampires now being their own person will change anything? The one at the Godsmoot wasn't a dwarf, so it could be that she has no connection to Hel at all at this point.

...Hmmm. Could the way for this arc to end be that by delaying the vote for long enough that they could sever the connection between Hel and the vampire at the Godsmoot her vote is made null and the gods voting against destroying the world win? That would also mean that Dvalin can tell the council that he no longer needs their council, so even with a broken table they can still formally end the meeting and allow Durkon to be depetrified.

Are we sure that they were ever thralls? Ponchula, the Exarch and Sandy all seemed to have much more free will than Durkula did as Malack’s thrall.

[Dausuul]

They can, but they only get one action in sunlight and are destroyed the next round.
Actually they can't. They are allowed one move action, or one attack action; misting out is neither a move nor an attack.

The Exarch even alluded to this when Durkon first broke open the hole in the ceiling: "Oh wait, I can move." One more way in which the Exarch lived (sorta) and died by the rules. :)

[Aetius]

He's blind. He's probably sitting outside waiting for someone to cure him.

Or he died a heroic death, meaning Durkons decision to leave him there, blind as he was, turned out to be the right one but came with a price.
And like his mum he is now faced with the decision to revive his relative who died under his command - or let him enjoy his hard earned reward in the afterlife.



But probably the blind thing, yes.

[Fyraltari]

Every vampire we've seen besides the Frontarch, Curly and Sandy (for now) has been dusted, I checked at the time.

Since Durkon won't be unstoned until the meeting is done, my guees is that the elders will fetch a card table, vote no, and the Orderwill go save the world while the Frontarch mists out of Zenith Peak to try and found a new Church of Hel and Curly remains trapped inside the Dwarven Lands starting a vampire infestation.

[ASCIInerd73]

...Hmmm. Could the way for this arc to end be that by delaying the vote for long enough that they could sever the connection between Hel and the vampire at the Godsmoot her vote is made null and the gods voting against destroying the world win? That would also mean that Dvalin can tell the council that he no longer needs their council, so even with a broken table they can still formally end the meeting and allow Durkon to be depetrified.

I'm sure V can cast Stone To Flesh, so Durkon can be unpetrified. He could possibly even be saved if his family carried him out through the orange barrier to dispel any magical effects. So Durkon is probably fine and going to be unpetrified shortly.

And that's assuming that none of Durkon's family can unpetrify. It's possible that we'll see them cure Durkon immediately in the next strip.

[Worldsong]

Are we sure that they were ever thralls? Ponchula, the Exarch and Sandy all seemed to have much more free will than Durkula did as Malack’s thrall.

True, although knowing Greg I suspect that his behaviour isn't necessarily a good example of how an enthralled vampire behaves. I'd imagine that while an enthralled vampire can't go against the will of their sire they do still have their own personality and thoughts, and Greg just decided to act like a more simple-minded thrall while he had yet to absorb many memories from Durkon's mind (and perhaps to trick Malack into releasing him earlier than if he acted like a possible threat).

Also if they weren't thralls I'd have to ask Greg what the Hel he was thinking.

[Jasdoif]

So, does Gontor*'s death automatically unsommon Likeable Deathworm?Probably not automatically; gate is much closer to the summoning of Zzdrti's piscoloth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), which left under its own power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html) because its boss was dead.

[Fyraltari]

True, although knowing Greg I suspect that his behaviour isn't necessarily a good example of how an enthralled vampire behaves. I'd imagine that while an enthralled vampire can't go against the will of their sire they do still have their own personality and thoughts, and Greg just decided to act like a more simple-minded thrall while he had yet to absorb many memories from Durkon's mind (and perhaps to trick Malack into releasing him earlier than if he acted like a possible threat).

Also if they weren't thralls I'd have to ask Greg what the Hel he was thinking.

He was thinking that, like him, they would have had no time to form an emotional connection with anyone but would be extremely angry at a particular group of people and he offered them revenge and power.

Also the non-spellcaster vampires behaved as childishly as he did: «*she burned us with the bad light*»

[Schroeswald]

True, although knowing Greg I suspect that his behaviour isn't necessarily a good example of how an enthralled vampire behaves. I'd imagine that while an enthralled vampire can't go against the will of their sire they do still have their own personality and thoughts, and Greg just decided to act like a more simple-minded thrall while he had yet to absorb many memories from Durkon's mind (and perhaps to trick Malack into releasing him earlier than if he acted like a possible threat).

Also if they weren't thralls I'd have to ask Greg what the Hel he was thinking.

Im pretty sure the appearance count thread counts him as not appearing until Malack died, which is a vote for thralls not having much free will.

[deuterio12]

And the Exarch died as he lived... ranting impotently at things he couldn't change. His entire plan was based around avoiding a direct conflict to instead abuse the rules to win, so the moment that he tried to make use of the fact that the rules were no longer in place his fate was sealed.

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.
-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.
-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.
-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.
-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.
-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?
-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.

[chiefwaha]

Actually they can't. They are allowed one move action, or one attack action; misting out is neither a move nor an attack.

I read attack attack action as standard action. Perhaps not RAW, but how I'd interpret it. Either way he's destroyed.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I'm sure they did it with some help, but Minrah, level reduced Minrah, took down Noname who can cast 5th level spells?

[Resileaf]

I'm sure they did it with some help, but Minrah, level reduced Minrah, took down Noname who can cast 5th level spells?

The entire family probably fought her, but Minrah was the one who was left to pull her over.

[chiefwaha]

-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?

He still has to activate on his turn though, and he'd already attacked. And the grappling was more to throw him into the light than to actually prevent him from doing anything.

[pendell]

Dwarves rock. Nuff said.

Something that makes me especially happy is that the dwarves are solving this pretty much by themselves with Durkon's help. Something that irritated me back at the godsmoot was that it seemed no one had any agency except the OOTS proper. That is most definitely no longer the case; while Durkon has been a primary agent here, he has been ably supported by his family ...

family that is alive, in part, because of Sigdi's generous action to have total strangers resurrected.

So the good deeds Sigdi and Durkon come full circle , and pays off in the salvation of the world.

Bravo!

One slightly sad note is that we were not able to retrieve Gontor's corpse, so the original host is out of reach of any save true resurrection. I also note that the curly-haired vampire seems to have escaped. But this is a fine ending!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ManuelSacha]

That line from Sigdi was an instant favourite, for me.
Edgelords like to think that rules protect the world from them, when it's actually the other way around. :smallcool:

[The_Weirdo]

Turns out Sigdi isn't a person, she's a non-profit organization.

[Worldsong]

He was thinking that, like him, they would have had no time to form an emotional connection with anyone but would be extremely angry at a particular group of people and he offered them revenge and power.

Also the non-spellcaster vampires behaved as childishly as he did: «*she burned us with the bad light*»

I'd still find it doubtful he'd be willing to take the risk. Greg emphasized how his own personality was vital to him actually agreeing to Hel's plan, I'd find it mildly dissatisfying if that is kind of shoved into the corner by the implication that every other vampire can just be bribed with promises of power.


Im pretty sure the appearance count thread counts him as not appearing until Malack died, which is a vote for thralls not having much free will.

Ehm... isn't that thread entirely community based? I don't think it's a proper reflection of The Giant's thoughts.

[Aetius]

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.

It didn't. Belkar was just knocked out by Roy using non-leathal demage and woke up because the clasp hurt him (protection from himself as it were). Or at least that's how I read it.


-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.

That's because he didn't use the right villainous remark when he summoned it. Wormfood - that's the magic word!
But then again - him conveniently pulling that scroll out of his sweet creed past wasn't established beforehand either.


-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.

Sweet time? It was awfully quick for a meeting of a bureaucratic body like that. They hardly started discussing the issue.


-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.

None of the vampires had any reason to prepare that spell - even if it would work given the size of the table and the wording of the rules. But let's not get that debate started again...



-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?

Grappling? No.
Sunlight? Apparently so. I didn't know either.


-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.

Well...kinda.

[Hekko]

Ohh, I love this. Minrah is awesome. Thanks, Rich.

[jwhouk]

Minrah FTW!


Minrah has the best punchline, and it doesn't involve words.:smallamused:

Did anyone hear a "ding"? Because I think Minrah just leveled up.

[Wysper]

Does anyone else think that Sigdi is gonna be invited to join the council? She clearly has a large clan following her.

[The Pilgrim]

So, only culry hair is left. Assuming the Order hasn't noticed her misty form trying to escape. V should have sone spells thay can affect a Vampire in misty form.

[Lord Torath]

Hah! Just noticed the comic title! :smallbiggrin: Thanks, Mr. The Giant! I needed that!

I'm pretty sure Curly is still in the room. There are only two exits, and one of them is full of sunlight. The other was full of dwarves. She can't go through the one, and the dwarves should have noticed her going through the other. (Of course, now that I've said that, it's likely one will announce her departure in the next strip.

Also, Minrah is awesome. I bet it won't be long before she's a part of the family too! Either Sigdi will adopt her (unlikely), or one of Durkon's many cousins will recognize how amazing she is and start courting her.

I suspect there could be a replacement table kept nearby, and as soon as it's in place, they can complete the vote and unstone Durkon.

I also like the idea of dragging Durkon through the orange barrier, and leaving the Godsmoot vote in limbo for several weeks until they can make a new one. By which time, of course, the Order of the Stick and CloakTM will have wrapped up this Snarl business once and for all. :smallwink:


His fate was sealed from the start, <snip>Now that, I'll grant you. Rich knew exactly what was going to happen to this guy. The rest of your screed I won't waste energy countering. It's been done enough already.

[Worldsong]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

I accept this challenge.


-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.

It didn't heal him, he was knocked unconscious and the shock of the clasp woke him up. That may not be explicitly stated as something Protection From Evil can do but it was shown before that for Belkar activating that clasp is quite the experience.


-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.

That worm did a pretty good job keeping Durkon and the Order out until they got reinforcements. Also, the Order is in fact a high level party by this point, so it's not strange that they would actually be able to fight the worm and do pretty well. And the reason why the vampire spawn were more effective is because they relied on trickery rather than brute force, which is always a smart move.


-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.

His family has been foreshadowed massively and most of them aren't even that strong, they're just stronger than a bunch of guards who aren't fighting in their best capacity because their minds aren't working right. The Giant has rather consistently portrayed dominated people as not being at their best.


-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.

Politics/bureaucracy being a slow process? Absolutely impossible, immersion ruined, send in the cops to arrest The Giant for unrealistic portrayal of a formal meeting.


-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.

The only reason they would prepare that spell at all when they expect their next day to be entirely about fighting and delaying the Order of the Stick is if they were aware the table might need fixing, and the Exarch clearly forgot about that because story characters can still make mistakes or overlook things. Also there's debate whether fixing the table would actually work since one could nitpick that it being healed doesn't make it unbroken, just repaired.


-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?

I've got the 3.5 SRD on hand, Misting is a standard action. Regardless of whether it's Su or not a standard action remains a standard action, and the family didn't give him the opportunity before getting him into the sunlight. And a vampire can't take a standard action when exposed to sunlight.


-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

3.5 SRD does not mention anything about auto-misting, it just states that a vampire at 0 HP is incapacitated.

EDIT: on second readthrough I'll have to concede yes the SRD DOES actually mention vampires misting at 0 HP. However it also states that if they can't reach their coffin within 2 hours they're destroyed, so while I'll admit that what Minrah did isn't entirely according to the standard rules it doesn't actually change much because none of these vampires had a coffin and Sandy would have died either way. This way it's just more comical.


It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.

Yes the plot had him lose but it didn't do so by warping the story. It just made everything fall together in the right way. And yes some of the thing which made him lose were caused by bad luck or dumb decisions but the good guys get plenty of that as well so it's not reality warping for the bad guys to suffer from it as well.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I love Minrah.


Now someone fix Durkon from being stoned.

Hell be automatically fixed once the meeting is resolved. But, yeah, it would be great if they c could fix him sooner.

[Leftour]

Epic and in a way grim and brutal. Messing with a dwarven clan is something one does NOT want to do.

Also it looks like the barriers are down, thus the rest of the party can come in. My guess is that Elan will mend the table so that the meeting can resume without further delay. Good for Durkon, an expedition to find and take down an oak that big would probably involve the mobilization of the entire dwarven army...


P.S. I really hope that Rich fixes Sigdi`s axe before the book gets in print. In the last 2 strips it is the dwarven waraxe that fell down the chasm, not the replacement battleaxe she got. A minor continuity error but it bugs my ocd side unreasonably since i noticed it :P

[Peelee]

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.
It didn't heal, it caused him pain, which is a well-known trope for waking an unconscious character.

-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.
Action economy exists, and the worm would have killed Roy almost instantly if he didn't have a Wizard who specialized in Hand spells.

-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.
Source on the guards being elite, or an army? There look to be a few of them, and nothing about them says they're anything other than low-level. Also, they had most of the night and morning to contact them and get the family there, I'd hardly call that a moment's notice (though this is the point that has the most merit behind it).

-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.
The dominated elders sure seem to be voting pretty quickly.

-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.
That the spell exists doesn't mean that any of the clerics prepared it that day.

-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it.
During the vampire's turn, sure. He used his action that round to drain Sigdi. Again, action economy.

-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.
Vampires also have coffins they have to retreat to. These are coffin-less vampires, so they're already under special rules. This is clearly an extension of those special rules. Not to mention that the comic follows D&D rules until it doesn't, which has been a thing for a long time now.

[anonynos]

-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.


No. Just no. The fact that none of the rather limited number of people in that room cast the spell as an instantaneous reaction in order to keep the vote from being tabled (hehe) doesn't mean "it's been erased from existence". The spell exists, and quite possibly can fix the table. Right after they clear out that boulder, which I'm sure people will get right on.

[Fish]

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.
No evidence for this claim, except what I presume is your your assumption that Belkar was Unconscious strictly by the terms of D&D rules. Belkar had no damage markings; it is not clear he became Unconscious due to damage.

-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.
Hel always provides the strongest available? Don’t think so. I recall that the worm was the one she chose to send. Tactical mistakes are not reality rewrites.

-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.
Demonstrate ... any of this.

We have known for a long, long time that Durkon has a large family. It’s also been clear for some time that Sigdi had them rezzed because they died with dishonor — not in combat. We know when they awoke that some of them vowed to get back to combat-oriented specialties. My Surprise-O-Meter that Durkon has family members with class levels = 0.003%.

As for the rest: How do you know they’re all high level? How do you know they’re immune to domination? How is “overnight” the same as “a moment’s notice?” What evidence do you have that even one of them is a Mary Sue? “Effective in a large, planned tactical assault where they have a material advantage” != “Mary Sue.” Otherwise, Star Wars stormtroopers are all Mary Sues.

-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.
Compared to what? They didn’t even read the minutes of the last meeting or pass out snacks.

-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.
Is it not more likely that Gontor loaded up on combat spells? No, no, we must assume that Rich is cheating completely by erasing spells from the universe, than that Durkon had a good strategy that Gontor did not foresee.

-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?

The same rules that say “Sunlight stops misting.”

-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.
I’ll give you this one. I don’t understand how vampires can be unconscious, by the rules as I know them; but see “Rich doesn’t have to follow the rules of D&D in every panel.”

[gatemansgc]

One slightly sad note is that we were not able to retrieve Gontor's corpse, so the original host is out of reach of any save true resurrection. I also note that the curly-haired vampire seems to have escaped. But this is a fine ending!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

the dust from a destroyed vampire is enough for resurrection tho

[Fyraltari]

One slightly sad note is that we were not able to retrieve Gontor's corpse, so the original host is out of reach of any save true resurrection. I also note that the curly-haired vampire seems to have escaped. But this is a fine ending!

Respectfully,

Brian P.
They didn’t need a True Rez for Durkon. But I doubt they are going to Raise all forty-odd dead vampires.

I'd still find it doubtful he'd be willing to take the risk. Greg emphasized how his own personality was vital to him actually agreeing to Hel's plan, I'd find it mildly dissatisfying if that is kind of shoved into the corner by the implication that every other vampire can just be bribed with promises of power.

Well for one, they’re all Clerics so it’s more natural they’d turn to the goddess that would still give them power. And they’ve all been around for less than two days when he had much more time to develop. And and he had to do the whole thing while they could jump in on a plan underway. And and and he could killed the ones who disagreed offscreen as he raised them.

[Jasdoif]

During the vampire's turn, sure. He used his action that round to drain Sigdi. Again, action economy.Or the more boring answer: Escaping the grapple traditionally would put him outside the grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#escapefromGrapple), meaning he would be outside the sunlight if he succeeded on his action (as opposed to being sunbathed in gaseous form).

[Worldsong]

Well, that's at least four people who quickly shot down that list.

Deuterio, The Giant has made it clear that story goes before DnD rules. Any argument based on the DnD rules not accommodating something inside the comic holds no water because The Giant never gave himself the limitation that everything he does has to strictly be in line with the rules of DnD 3.5e. To find an error in the story you have to find an inconsistency within the comic itself, not an inconsistency with the rules of DnD 3.5e.

Also a lot of your arguments are taking minor things and blowing them out of proportion with the most negative perspective, and there is no story which stands up to the critique of someone who from the start is determined to dislike it.


Well for one, they’re all Clerics so it’s more natural they’d turn to the goddess that would still give them power. And they’ve all been around for less than two days when he had much more time to develop. And and he had to do the whole thing while they could jump in on a plan underway. And and and he could killed the ones who disagreed offscreen as he raised them.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying I find it unlikely and would find the alternative more interesting.

[Grey Watcher]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.

It's admittedly visually ambiguous, but I think the intent is that Roy's "Stay down!" inflicted a condition like Stunned or something on him, rather than non-lethal damage. Whatever discomfort his clasp gives him when activated was, functionally, equivalent to being shaken awake (similar to how one can take an action to rouse an unconscious person without damaging them, assuming nothing is keeping them down like non-lethal damage or magic). Not pedantically explicit, but still holds up, I think.


-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.

Hey, many's a good plan that has been ruined by bad dice rolls. It happens.


-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.

It honestly feels like, except for Not-Thad, they win more by sheer press of numbers than individual Mary Sueness. THey seem to be fighting defensively or outright going Total Defense against the earth elementals until the actual Marty Stu character can be brought in to play. They bypass the worm rather than fight it (only Kandro engages and dies for his trouble), and the guards are probably ceremonial. (If I were in charge of the military I wouldn't waste solid, high level characters on guard duty on a hall that gets used like three times a year.) The real Elite, Poop-Your-Pants-Worthy Dwarven warriors are probably off having border skirmishes with Drow or something.


-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.

It's not like we've previously established that the Council is some kind of rapid-fire decision making machine, so this hardly seems inconsistent.


-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.

There have been PAGES of debate on this forum about the word "unbroken." To say nothing of "Why would someone expecting to have to do a lot of fighting waste spell slots on Make Whole?"


-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?

Turning to mist is a standard action. If he's in the light, he can do either a move or a standard action, but not both before perishing. So he's in the light, uses his one and only action to turn to mist and... is still in the light and dies.


-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

When is he knocked unconscious? (He closes his eyes, but that looks more like wincing from pain to me.) On his turn he attacks Sigdi, then everyone else gets their turn and he's subject to a dozen grapple checks and forced movement so that, by the time his turn comes around again, he's grappled and in the light, which brings us back to the above.


It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.

Really, the only thing here that seems anywhere remotely as sketchy as you imply is Belkar's recovery from being knocked unconscious (since the comic isn't bothering to visually differentiate between "got knocked out by non-lethal damage" versus "had the unconscious condition applied directly to him by some other means)."

[Dion]

One slightly sad note is that we were not able to retrieve Gontor's corpse, so the original host is out of reach of any save true resurrection. I also note that the curly-haired vampire seems to have escaped. But this is a fine ending! .

I believe Gontor left a pile of dust that would allow resurrection.

[JessmanCA]

This is why sunroofs are worth the extra fees at your local car dealership folks

[Peelee]

Or the more boring answer: Escaping the grapple traditionally would put him outside the grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#escapefromGrapple), meaning he would be outside the sunlight if he succeeded on his action (as opposed to being sunbathed in gaseous form).

Or the even more boring answer: He didn't beat the grapple checks of all their individual check results to escape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#escapefromGrapple).

[RatElemental]

Can't help but notice Logann is not in the mob and can't be seen behind them when they're rushing in. I hope I'm just reading too much into that.

[gatemansgc]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.
-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.
-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.
-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.
-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.
-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?
-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.

dang, you got all your points taken apart multiple times.

only thing i can add that wasn't already said is i love your use of the word roflstomp.

[TheNecrocomicon]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.
-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.
-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.
-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.
-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.
-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?
-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.
- Belkar's clasp cast Protection from Evil, which caused him pain, waking him up, and also counteracted any domination that was still in effect on him.
- Like someone pointed out, that was a high-level scroll he spent, which also conveniently showed up for exactly that purpose, even after the Exarch had gone on about using up all his spell slots just to help raise the Godsmoot temple.
- The vampires were generally retreating into the chamber and did not (or could not) attempt to dominate the family, which included some high-level adventurers that were Sigdi's contemporaries for several decades and would probably have built up high Will saves. The vampires were also working to maintain domination of the guards and the elders inside. The elite dwarf guards may be elite, but that doesn't mean as elite as adventurers.
- The council is bureaucratic and overly officious; no wonder getting to the vote took time.
- The vampires would have needed to reposition the table back together for any sort of Mending effect to work, and they had a bunch of dwarven warriors breaking down their door to worry about.
- Apparently, the sunlight disorients the vampire, so if they don't manage to mist-form while outside of it (hence pushing the legs in), then they don't have enough time to change form and escape the sunlight inside a round. Also, good luck throwing off that many grapple checks at once.
- Incapacitation, paralysis, etc. exist as status effects that don't require knocking into unconsciousness.


One slightly sad note is that we were not able to retrieve Gontor's corpse, so the original host is out of reach of any save true resurrection.
He's simply reduced to dust, right? The same thing happened to Lurkon, and Durkon was able to get a standard Resurrection on the spot. The only thing that might prevent that is a gust of wind, like what happened to Kubota.


So, only curly hair is left. Assuming the Order hasn't noticed her misty form trying to escape.
Good catch by you and everyone else who pointed that out.


I suspect there could be a replacement table kept nearby, and as soon as it's in place, they can complete the vote and unstone Durkon.
The table is not a prerequisite for undoing the spell, and likely you want to do that while the meeting is not in session, since the petrification happened as a result of something committed while the meeting was in session. Also, doesn't Elan know Mending amongst his spell list?

[Jasdoif]

Or the even more boring answer: He didn't beat the grapple checks of all their individual check results to escape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#escapefromGrapple).The comic directly showing the results of the failed attempt I was talking about is even more boring, I agree.

[DaOldeWolf]

Arent we still missing one more vampire? :smallconfused:

[Snails]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.

Roy can blow through spawn like a hot lightsaber through warm butter. The worm succeeded in stopping Roy from taking out the guards, thus preventing the entire clan from rushing in circa Round 3. The Exarch did get the benefit of only Durkon taking one single action in the time necessary to complete a vote. Unfortunately that one action changed the "time necessary" to something else.



-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.

Read the text and look at the size of the table carefully. Durkon and Hilgya might be high enough level to fix the table, but the Exarch himself probably is not, assuming he actually prepared the spell for some weird reason.



It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.

Creatures in mist form can be attacked, by 3.5 RAW. The Thundershields have the capability of quickly dusting a mist vampire, in fact. It would be a bit less interesting to watch, but mechanically it would work.

[Worldsong]

Or the even more boring answer: He didn't beat the grapple checks of all their individual check results to escape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#escapefromGrapple).

In the words of CriticalFailure:


and what could strike more fear in the heart of a caster than hearing "OK, that'll be 10 grapple checks against your cmd this round?"

[gatemansgc]

Arent we still missing one more vampire? :smallconfused:

curly hair misted out in 1173 page 2 panel 1, i didn't even see it until someone pointed it out.

[Dion]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

Wow, that’s the biggest bowl of cornflakes I’ve ever seen!

[JumboWheat01]

Hmm... makes me want to have some characters with large families, never know when they might come in handy.

[Dion]

curly hair misted out in 1173 page 2 panel 1, i didn't even see it until someone pointed it out.

Are there misted red eyes hiding in any panels in this strip? I looked and didn’t see any. I suspect she’s bugged out. She should make a point of staying away from Minrah.

[Peelee]

The real Elite, Poop-Your-Pants-Worthy Dwarven warriors

I'm going to assume this is the official rank of the higher-up martial dwarves until explicitly told otherwise by the author.

[Schroeswald]

I'm going to assume this is the official rank of the higher-up martial dwarves until explicitly told otherwise by the author.

Death of the Author bruh, I’ll assume it until the comic explicitly says otherwise.

[pendell]

Are there misted red eyes hiding in any panels in this strip? I looked and didn’t see any. I suspect she’s bugged out. She should make a point of staying away from Minrah.

Okay, okay, I'm slow. I've looked at this page repeatedly and I still don't see her misting. I see her portrayed in the second panel with bug eyes, and I don't see her at all after that. At what point did she mist out? Or are we simply inferring from the fact she is missing in the panels after #2?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jasdoif]

Okay, okay, I'm slow. I've looked at this page repeatedly and I still don't see her misting. I see her portrayed in the second panel with bug eyes, and I don't see her at all after that. At what point did she mist out?#1173 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1173.html), second page, first panel, on the far right, behind the speech bubble.

[Peelee]

Death of the Author bruh, I’ll assume it until the comic explicitly says otherwise.

"Death of the Author" is significantly less compelling while the work is still being written.:smallwink:

[Giscard76]

Huzzah! that was satifying!

[Schroeswald]

"Death of the Author" is significantly less compelling while the work is still being written.:smallwink:

We can invoke Death of the Author at exactly what we feel like and then pretend that we came up with whatever we don’t feel like doing it to.

[Tundar]

I'll FLING this comic up on my top 20 list of awesome pages.

[Sir_Galliant]

I don't know how related this is, but I wonder if Aristotle's sun laser could kill a vampire with sunlight.

[Aetius]

Also, they had most of the night and morning to contact them and get the family there, I'd hardly call that a moment's notice (though this is the point that has the most merit behind it).

I think the most merit is behind the point about domination.

The vampires easily dominated all the guards and councilmembers and before that they dominated half of a high level adventuring party including a high level cleric.
But no domination is happening on anyone in Durkons family - even though they are swarming all over the place.

Why?


They simply got lucky --> all of them? Possible, but very unlikely given the numbers.
They used the time to buff up with mind blank or something --> more likely, but is there a reliable enough buff that can be cast that many times?
The bards did something in the back to prevent domination or lift it quickly enough to not count --> not really shown and I don't know an ability that fits the bill.
Only Greg could dominate high level characters and the Exarch only manages NPC-Guards and councilmembers who all happen to be low level --> kinda convenient, I guess.


None of these seem to be very convincing.

[DaOldeWolf]

Okay, okay, I'm slow. I've looked at this page repeatedly and I still don't see her misting. I see her portrayed in the second panel with bug eyes, and I don't see her at all after that. At what point did she mist out? Or are we simply inferring from the fact she is missing in the panels after #2?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I dont see her becoming mist either. I asume they are referring exactly to what you suggested that it is being inferred.

[facw]

I dont see her becoming mist either. I asume they are referring exactly to what you suggested that it is being inferred.

Was mentioned already but it's the right side of the 1st panel of the second page of 1173. There's a plume of smoke approximately where she would have been standing. She also fled the previous fight, so getting out now would certainly be in keeping with what we know of her.

[MirEgal]

I think the most merit is behind the point about domination.

The vampires easily dominated all the guards and councilmembers and before that they dominated half of a high level adventuring party including a high level cleric.
But no domination is happening on anyone in Durkons family - even though they are swarming all over the place.

Why?

I'd assume Dominate still takes an action. Assume you are a vampire with dozens of people attacking you at the same time. Do you spend your action to dominate one of them or do you either retreat and regroup or use an AOE spell?

For the council and the guards, it has been shown that the vampires were able to dominate them whenever they arrived.

[Peelee]

I think the most merit is behind the point about domination.

The vampires easily dominated all the guards and councilmembers and before that they dominated half of a high level adventuring party including a high level cleric.
But no domination is happening on anyone in Durkons family - even though they are swarming all over the place.

Why?


There's actually a pretty good reason!

Dominate (Su)
A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected.

A vampire can only do it once per round. When they fought the order and there were a bunch of vamps present? Great idea. When you're the only vamp and a horde of people are coming for your head? Very poor idea.

[pendell]

I dont see her becoming mist either. I asume they are referring exactly to what you suggested that it is being inferred.

No, I've looked. Look at the panel where Gontor' says " Oh, this just keeps getting more pathetic."


Look behind the speech bubble where he is saying "That wouldn't have even stopped me if it had hit."

Behind that speech bubble you will see what looks like black smoke.

Notice that black smoke is directly behind the bald, brown-skinned council member with the white beard -- which is exactly where curly was standing in the last panel in which we saw her.

So yes. I see it now. Curly is unobstrusively misting out while Gontor' keeps ranting on.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Aetius]

I dont see her becoming mist either. I asume they are referring exactly to what you suggested that it is being inferred.

I do neither, so I guess we're equally blind.

But, there is something looking awfully similar to a misting vampire in that panel. It's hidden behind the speech bubble so you can't see a lot of it and there are no eyes to be seen either (or at least I don't). So I'm not sure what that is. It could be some smoke or vapor or something else as well.
But given where Curly was standing before and the lack of any better explanation as to where that blackish stuff comes from it seems very likely that she did in fact mist away.

Edit: Far too many Ninjas around here...

[Fish]

I don't know how related this is, but I wonder if Aristotle's sun laser could kill a vampire with sunlight.
Archimedes. Aristotle was the guy who said houseflies had four legs.

[Dion]

But no domination is happening on anyone in Durkons family - even though they are swarming all over the place.

Why?

There wereonly three vampires, and their only opportunities to dominate were in middle chamber. Mechanically they just didn’t have a lot of chances to use their dominate ability.

But I agree that it probably should been used...

[Resileaf]

No, I've looked. Look at the panel where Gontor' says " Oh, this just keeps getting more pathetic."


Look behind the speech bubble where he is saying "That wouldn't have even stopped me if it had hit."

Behind that speech bubble you will see what looks like black smoke.

Notice that black smoke is directly behind the bald, brown-skinned council member with the white beard -- which is exactly where curly was standing in the last panel in which we saw her.

So yes. I see it now. Curly is unobstrusively misting out while Gontor' keeps ranting on.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

She's probably the smartest vampire in the room. Figured out they had lost immediately.

[Worldsong]

I don't know how related this is, but I wonder if Aristotle's sun laser could kill a vampire with sunlight.

I'd imagine it would.


I think the most merit is behind the point about domination.

The vampires easily dominated all the guards and councilmembers and before that they dominated half of a high level adventuring party including a high level cleric.
But no domination is happening on anyone in Durkons family - even though they are swarming all over the place.

Why?


They simply got lucky --> all of them? Possible, but very unlikely given the numbers.
They used the time to buff up with mind blank or something --> more likely, but is there a reliable enough buff that can be cast that many times?
The bards did something in the back to prevent domination or lift it quickly enough to not count --> not really shown and I don't know an ability that fits the bill.
Only Greg could dominate high level characters and the Exarch only manages NPC-Guards and councilmembers who all happen to be low level --> kinda convenient, I guess.


None of these seem to be very convincing.

I think the main argument here would be that there's not actually many vampires left, and they had the entire night (I think) to dominate all those guards and then the council members. With Durkon's family they might just not have had the opportunity to dominate them.


I'd assume Dominate still takes an action. Assume you are a vampire with dozens of people attacking you at the same time. Do you spend your action to dominate one of them or do you either retreat and regroup or use an AOE spell?

For the council and the guards, it has been shown that the vampires were able to dominate them whenever they arrived.

Also this. Dominate takes a standard action and might not be the best option when you're dealing with an entire horde of enemies who're all swarming you.

Also apparently a vampire's dominating gaze only works up to a distance of 30 feet. Who knew?

[Aetius]

There's actually a pretty good reason!

Didn't know it took an action to do it.
That's that, then.

Thanks.

[mucat]

I don't know how related this is, but I wonder if Aristotle's sun laser could kill a vampire with sunlight.
Archmides? Or is this a thing Aristotle did that I hadn't heard about?

[Fish]

Also this. Dominate takes a standard action and might not be the best option when you're dealing with an entire horde of enemies who're all swarming you.
Works the same way in the movies, too, I’ll bet. The vampire tends to flee when the crowd* shows up with pitchforks and torches.



*Probably muttering, “Rhubarb, rhubarb.”

[DaOldeWolf]

If the vampire left, I wonder if this means there is something else on the move or if she simply left out of cowardice.

[Crusher]

Boom, Boom. ON COME THE LIGHTS.

[Worldsong]

Works the same way in the movies, too, I’ll bet. The vampire tends to flee when the crowd* shows up with pitchforks and torches.



*Probably muttering, “Rhubarb, rhubarb.”

Now I'm imagining vampires running away while complaining about action economy.

Thanks.

[MirEgal]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:


Although a lot of people already answered, I'd like to focus on the aspect of storytelling instead of the rules:

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.
It has been shown multiple times that Belkar's clasp is hurting him. It is so much pain that he has to grind his teeth to stay focused on whatever he's doing. I'd say it's at least comparable with shaking someone to wake up.


Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.
Well, almost all of Durkons part during this arc was spent to investigate his history and the connection to his mother and her friends. It has been shown again and again that Sigdi was alone and gained an ever-growing amount of friends because of her actions. Friends which became family to both her and Durkon. Its actually difficult to put even more emphasis on "Durkon and his mother have a lot of very good friends". It's also a very nice touch that instead of solving the problem himself, Durkon trusts his friends so much that he risks being turned into stone, assuming that they will win.

Also, nothing indicates them being Mary Sues except for the one character who killed some elementals and then disappeared to a plane. They just have superior numbers, that's it.


The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.
It's unreasonable to assume anyone would prepare the spell in this situation as they overlooked the table thing.

All of it has been extensively foreshadowed. It's like complaining that Gandalf brought the cavalry at Helms Deep.

[DavidSh]

If the vampire left, I wonder if this means there is something else on the move or if she simply left out of cowardice.
Maybe she is going to try to have a chat with Hilgya and Kudzu.

[Worldsong]

Maybe she is going to try to have a chat with Hilgya and Kudzu.

Maybe this time Hilgya can make her Will Save.

[HorizonWalker]

Going back to the Exarch- I'm assuming that the reason he can't be rezzed while Durkon could is that Durkon was killed with a stake. The Exarch was killed with sunlight. And we've already seen Malack get killed by sunlight, along with any lack of usable ash for resurrection. Why does sunlight kill differently than a stake? No idea! But apparently it does, and I'm led to believe that the Exarch has no remains.

[Worldsong]

Going back to the Exarch- I'm assuming that the reason he can't be rezzed while Durkon could is that Durkon was killed with a stake. The Exarch was killed with sunlight. And we've already seen Malack get killed by sunlight, along with any lack of usable ash for resurrection. Why does sunlight kill differently than a stake? No idea! But apparently it does, and I'm led to believe that the Exarch has no remains.

Reading the vampire entry in the SRD it does make a clear distinction between getting killed by a stake through the heart and by the sun.

However it also treats being killed with a stake entirely different than The Giant does, because according to the SRD putting a stake in the heart of a vampire technically kills it but in effect just incapacitates them completely until either their body is destroyed in a more permanent manner or the stake is removed.


Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

[Dion]

And we've already seen Malack get killed by sunlight, along with any lack of usable ash for resurrection. .

Malack the vampire cant be resurrected because you can’t resurrect vampires. That vampire soul goes back to wherever it came from.

Malack, the long-dormant low-level lizard shaman from an extinct tribe might be resurrected, but if he died more than 170 years ago you’re going to have a hard time finding a cleric high enough level to do it. And he might not be interested.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Malack the vampire cant be resurrected because you can’t resurrect vampires. That vampire soul goes back to wherever it came from.

Malack, the long-dormant low-level lizard shaman from an extinct tribe might be resurrected, but if he died more than 170 years ago you’re going to have a hard time finding a cleric high enough level to do it. And he might not be interested.

Pedantic Nitpick: Malack claims to have had a different name when he was alive, though he could be lying. Until informed otherwise, I will assume that Luna hit the nail on the head, and his name was Jake.

Also, until informed otherwise, I will assume that Minrah took out that vampire on her own, which is whyshe's so much more beat up than the other dwarves.

[Psyren]

So who is left in Hel's frontarchy? I'm guessing just the one vamp cleric in the Godsmoot?

[Fyraltari]

When is he knocked unconscious? (He closes his eyes, but that looks more like wincing from pain to me.) On his turn he attacks Sigdi, then everyone else gets their turn and he's subject to a dozen grapple checks and forced movement so that, by the time his turn comes around again, he's grappled and in the light, which brings us back to the above.
Not that it invalidates anything you or the others said but I think Deuterio was talking about Sandy No-Name the henchvampire there.

Can't help but notice Logann is not in the mob and can't be seen behind them when they're rushing in. I hope I'm just reading too much into that.
He’s blind, he’d be a liability running in. He’s probably sitting out of the way until Durkon can cure him.

Arent we still missing one more vampire? :smallconfused:
Yup. The smart thing for her to do now would be to release Elder Whiterock and any other dwarf under her control and hope people forget she exists. We’ll see what happens in a comic or two, I think.

I don't know how related this is, but I wonder if Aristotle's sun laser could kill a vampire with sunlight.
Does the rule state ‘direct sunlight’? If yes, no and if no, yes.



Also apparently a vampire's dominating gaze only works up to a distance of 30 feet. Who knew?
Well it is kind of hard to make somebody’s eyes out at 9.144m.

If the vampire left, I wonder if this means there is something else on the move or if she simply left out of cowardice.
Fleeing a lost battle against thirty or so opponents unlikely to accept any form of surrender leaves cowardice’s domain and enter common sense’s. Why on Earth would she stay?

Going back to the Exarch- I'm assuming that the reason he can't be rezzed while Durkon could is that Durkon was killed with a stake. The Exarch was killed with sunlight. And we've already seen Malack get killed by sunlight, along with any lack of usable ash for resurrection. Why does sunlight kill differently than a stake? No idea! But apparently it does, and I'm led to believe that the Exarch has no remains.
You try finding a pile of ash in a sand dune.

Malack, the long-dormant low-level lizard shaman from an extinct tribe might be resurrected, but if he died more than 170 years ago you’re going to have a hard time finding a cleric high enough level to do it. And he might not be interested.

Wouldn’t you need to know his name to raise him? Because it wasn’t Malack.

[Ruck]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.
-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.
-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.
-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.
-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.
-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?
-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.

Just a helpful hint: your complaints about the comic might be better received if you depicted it accurately! You're wrong about the rules for misting, you don't know what a Mary Sue is, and... You also think that the Council should use a low-level spell to get on with voting to destroy the world-- never mind that "unbroken" is not the same thing as "broken and repaired"-- when they would quite clearly be happy with not having to be condemned to Hel.

Yes, the plot was written so that the villain would lose. What awful storytelling.

[Fyraltari]

For those who still can't see Curly leaving last strip :



http://i63.tinypic.com/23kdaw7.png



Just a helpful hint: your complaints about the comic might be better received if you depicted it accurately!
[...]
Yes, the plot was written so that the villain would lose. What awful storytelling.
You know what? I'm going to extended sig that, if you allow me to.

[Yirggzmb]

And we've already seen Malack get killed by sunlight, along with any lack of usable ash for resurrection. Why does sunlight kill differently than a stake? No idea! But apparently it does, and I'm led to believe that the Exarch has no remains.

I always assumed that the reason Malack had no useable remains left was because he was killed outside. Figured whatever breeze there might have been had carried the ashes away.

That and the previously mentioned fact that they'd be wanting to bring back vampire Malack, not mortal Malack, which I don't think is possible even with the ashes.

[Krakes]

"I'll move to censure once we're back in session." This was the person that pointed out the log loophole, yes? So he's probably well aware that it'll take weeks to make a new table for the meeting to reconvene anyway, at which point "censuring" an adventuring party for saving their lives and the rest of the world is not going to be high on the list of priorities. (And even if due diligence requires that the censure be carried out, it's not even going to rate the term "slap on the wrist.")

EDIT: Not the same guy, but still, rules lawyering FTW!

Are we sure he meant a motion to censure Sigdi and the others? Maybe he meant censuring Gontor. Amounts to the same thing either way, really.

[glissle]

It's admittedly visually ambiguous, but I think the intent is that Roy's "Stay down!" inflicted a condition like Stunned or something on him, rather than non-lethal damage. Whatever discomfort his clasp gives him when activated was, functionally, equivalent to being shaken awake (similar to how one can take an action to rouse an unconscious person without damaging them, assuming nothing is keeping them down like non-lethal damage or magic). Not pedantically explicit, but still holds up, I think.

Adding to this, an OOTSverse ability to knock someone out in such a way that they can recover quickly without healing was well-established in strips 587 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html) and 589 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0589.html). The last panel of 589 may even have an example of someone being roused by pain, as he is revealed to be conscious and standing in the last panel of 590, in spite of having acquired additional wound marks while being captured.

That said, I found this jarring at the time, as it struck me as neither D&D-like nor realistic, though the fact that it humiliated Daigo and increased the danger to Kazumi may have colored my reaction.

[Ruck]

For those who still can't see Curly leaving last strip :





You know what? I'm going to extended sig that, if you allow me to.

Go for it; I'm always game for being immortalized.

[Krakes]

I don't think she is actually cheating, just trying to find loopholes in the rules. She considered actually cheating by killing Durkon in the middle of the fight, but Thor and Loki arrived to make sure she didn't.

So using her minions to sway the vote doesn't count as cheating? Seems pretty sketchy to me.

[Schroeswald]

So using her minions to sway the vote doesn't count as cheating? Seems pretty sketchy to me.

Some clerics of Hel decided on their own to help the cause of Hel, no more cheating than the clerics of Thor and Hilgya interfering in the voting process.

[Fyraltari]

Go for it; I'm always game for being immortalized.
You have far more optimistic assessment of this forum's expected existance-span than I do.

So using her minions to sway the vote doesn't count as cheating? Seems pretty sketchy to me.

Why would it? She's not part of this vote, mortal lwas don't apply to gods. If Dvalin cares so much about this vote that's on him, but no god law forbids her from interfering in the affairs of mortals by way of her Clergy, quite the opposite actually.

[Jasdoif]

Wouldn’t you need to know his name to raise him? Because it wasn’t Malack.While name (and time of death) is the most common method to "unambiguously identify the deceased", as required by true resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm); I imagine "The lizardfolk known as the host of the vampire Malack" would work as well.


So using her minions to sway the vote doesn't count as cheating? Seems pretty sketchy to me.That clerics exist is a very strong sign that using underlings to interfere with mortal affairs isn't cheating as far as the gods are concerned.

[Fyraltari]

While name (and time of death) is the most common method to "unambiguously identify the deceased", as required by true resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm); I imagine "The lizardfolk known as the host of the vampire Malack" would work as well.

Oh. Well, nobody cares anyway.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I don't know how related this is, but I wonder if Aristotle's sun laser could kill a vampire with sunlight.

Aristotle had some surprisingly hard-to-summarize ideas on perception, light, color, and how living beings use senses to perceive reality (one of his ideas, that sensory input was carried through the bloodstream to the heart, is remarkably similar to our modern knowledge that sensory information is carried through nerves to the brain).

There are stories of Archimedes using mirrors to set enemy ships on fire, but those are disputed. It is accepted that Archimedes designed systems of pulleys and levers to (according to the Romans) pick up Marcellus's ships and dash them against rocks, and it is accepted that he invented some sort of catapult capable of launching 500-pound boulders with (again, according to the Romans) distressing accuracy.

As far as a sun laser, the Greek mathematician Diocles wrote a work on how to construct a small one, and figured out the exact shape needed for a reflective surface to focus light to a point. Then again, Diocles also wrote many commentaries on Archimedes, so if Archimedes did do a sun laser, Diocles could have gotten the idea from him.

Many of the works of the ancient Greeks have been lost. One of Archimedes's works was thought lost until it was discovered in 1906.

Crazy Theory time: Perhaps Aristotle did write a work on sun lasers, but all copies of it were lost in the great struggle between the ancient Greeks and the vampires.

[Hemoparty]

In which Minrah commits one of the funniest murders in the comic so far.

[chiefwaha]

Does the rule state ‘direct sunlight’? If yes, no and if no, yes.

Yes, it states direct sunlight.

So all a vampire really needs is a parasol. Would sunblock work?

[Fyraltari]

Yes, it states direct sunlight.

So all a vampire really needs is a parasol. Would sunblock work?
Needs to be extra powerful sunblock, the kind that doesn't even let you tan.

[The MunchKING]

Yes, it states direct sunlight.

So all a vampire really needs is a parasol. Would sunblock work?

It did for Marceline the Vampire Queen. (https://adventuretime.fandom.com/wiki/Princess_Day)

[Rogan]

Nice spotting checks from those who noticed the protection going down last strip.

Oh, by the way:





2) narrative reason: this book has a focus on Durkon and his family. I don't think the rest of the order will solve everything while he is stoned.

I'll offer five quataloos on a bet supporting this take. I like your take on that, not sure what Rich is going to do with it.

Should have agreed to this offer... Oh well, no quataloos for me.

Question: Is the orange barrier down as well as the law runes? We don't know it yet, do we?

[Anarion]

Dwarven family saving the day once the bad moment was stopped. Very cool. I wonder if they'll even manage another council vote after this if Elan casts a bunch of mending on the table! :smallbiggrin:

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Archimedes. Aristotle was the guy who said houseflies had four legs.

It's a bit different than that. (http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/history_anim.1.i.html)




All creatures that are capable of motion move with four or more points of motion; the blooded animals with four only: as, for instance, man with two hands and two feet, birds with two wings and two feet, quadrupeds and fishes severally with four feet and four fins. Creatures that have two winglets or fins, or that have none at all like serpents, move all the same with not less than four points of motion; for there are four bends in their bodies as they move, or two bends together with their fins. Bloodless and many footed animals, whether furnished with wings or feet, move with more than four points of motion; as, for instance, the dayfly moves with four feet and four wings: and, I may observe in passing, this creature is exceptional not only in regard to the duration of its existence, whence it receives its name, but also because though a quadruped it has wings also.

All animals move alike, four-footed and many-footed; in other words, they all move cross-corner-wise. And animals in general have two feet in advance; the crab alone has four.

The fly that he is talking about here is probably a mayfly, given that he calls its lifespan "exceptional". There are species of mayfly which use only four of their legs for walking (the other two are used to grasp one another while mating). In this work, Aristotle only counts limbs as legs if they are used for movement (the human arms are used for moving when crawling, climbing, etc). So, he's not wrong to say that the "dayfly" has four points of motion as it walks, if the "dayfly" is a certain species of mayfly.

Aristotle still got many things wrong, but I don't count this as one of them.

[GregTD]

So there's now two vampires left, one who's stuck at the Godsmoot and one who fled the council meeting before they could get thrown into the sunlight (there might be others but they're the only ones who have been shown to survive so far).

What happened to Ponchoella?

[Aetius]

He’s blind, he’d be a liability running in. He’s probably sitting out of the way until Durkon can cure him.

Sitting out the final battle for the fate of the world and dwarvenkind? Missing the possibly last chance to die with honor - because it would be risky?

Doesn't sound much like the Logann I know.
Or like a proper dwarf, for that matter.

Sure - you could argue since he might be a liability to others participating in the fight he would be sacrificing his chance to die with honor for the greater good. But that sounds like something Thor would argue after the fact - not something Logann would consider. Being blind didn't stop him swinging before. And even if he had to be careful and refrain from leading the charge - not going in at all seems weird to me.

[Schroeswald]

What happened to Ponchoella?

Belkar cut off her head right before Durkon** (I meant both asterisks) committed suicide by halfling.

[Fyraltari]

Sitting out the final battle for the fate of the world and dwarvenkind? Missing the possibly last chance to die with honor - because it would be risky?

Doesn't sound much like the Logann I know.
Or like a proper dwarf, for that matter.

Sure - you could argue since he might be a liability to others participating in the fight he would be sacrificing his chance to die with honor for the greater good. But that sounds like something Thor would argue after the fact - not something Logann would consider. Being blind didn't stop him swinging before. And even if he had to be careful and refrain from leading the charge - not going in at all seems weird to me.

At best he'd need domeone to guide him to the ennemy , which would just make the two of them useless, and at worst he'd pick out a cousin's eye with his axe. He ismply isn't needed or able to change the outcome of this "battle" (a dozen people against two is barely a battle anyway) and he's already cost Durkon a "cure critical wounds" by acting recklessly once.

[klarg1]

Poor Gontor. His last words will haunt me.

"Perhaps when the moot has concluded we could - Excuse me? What does-" :smallconfused:

[GregTD]

No. Just no. The fact that none of the rather limited number of people in that room cast the spell as an instantaneous reaction in order to keep the vote from being tabled (hehe) doesn't mean "it's been erased from existence". The spell exists, and quite possibly can fix the table. Right after they clear out that boulder, which I'm sure people will get right on.

Ding!

Sigdi immediately sucked Gontor* into a fight. Even if he had Make Whole prepared, even if he was high enough level to be able to repair the table, and even if a repaired table would meet the requirements, he still needed the time to cast it.

Which Sigdi didn't let him get.


Also, they had most of the night and morning to contact them and get the family there, I'd hardly call that a moment's notice (though this is the point that has the most merit behind it).

Very little. They started assembling the family the moment that Durkon came back as a vampire. To rally around his mother in her time of sorrow, if for no other reason.

I mean, seriously. Your lands have been invaded by vampires who are engaging in wanton murder. heck yes any and all high level characters are going to assemble!


Vampires also have coffins they have to retreat to. These are coffin-less vampires, so they're already under special rules. This is clearly an extension of those special rules. Not to mention that the comic follows D&D rules until it doesn't, which has been a thing for a long time now.

In this case, it's following the "rule of funny". A vampire that's be lowered to 0 HP has to retreat to his coffin or else die. None of these dwarves have had a chance to set up coffins, so 0 HP == death.

Minrah throwing the vampire into the light is more funny, and easier for readers to understand, than him misting and dying.

[Riftwolf]

Poor Gontor*. He thought he was the rulemaster, and couldn't comprehend it when it turned out he got outsmarted.

As for him losing grapples; I'm guessing as an elderly, non-adventuring, unbuffed cleric, his Strength+BAB weren't great before vampirism, and now he's just OK in melee. And these dwarves are well versed in the lesser-used 'aid another' action.
Why didn't he mist? He probably thought he could break free and drain a few, because everything was predestined, preordained, planned and proceeding; its not like *he* could be stopped by *them* after all...

I'm also wondering if there's a spell/ability that allows you to stun undead (or an approximation of stunning, just like turning is an approximation for fear effects) which Minrah could've bust out. Not that it matters, but rules geekery is fun! (or an approximation of it, at least...)

[Peelee]

In this case, it's following the "rule of funny". A vampire that's be lowered to 0 HP has to retreat to his coffin or else die. None of these dwarves have had a chance to set up coffins, so 0 HP == death.

Minrah throwing the vampire into the light is more funny, and easier for readers to understand, than him misting and dying.

A.) All that's written is they have 3 hours to get to their coffins. That they didn't have a chance to set up their coffins shouldn't affect that they have 3 more hours before they die, I'd argue.
2.) Staking Durkon's vampire killed him outright when it should have required more than just that, so we already know vampire death is functioning different than core rules to begin with.

[Worldsong]

Sitting out the final battle for the fate of the world and dwarvenkind? Missing the possibly last chance to die with honor - because it would be risky?

Doesn't sound much like the Logann I know.
Or like a proper dwarf, for that matter.

Sure - you could argue since he might be a liability to others participating in the fight he would be sacrificing his chance to die with honor for the greater good. But that sounds like something Thor would argue after the fact - not something Logann would consider. Being blind didn't stop him swinging before. And even if he had to be careful and refrain from leading the charge - not going in at all seems weird to me.

By entering the chamber blind he could get in the way of his family as they try to take care of the vampire, thus giving the Exarch precious seconds to either harm Sigdi or escape. By sitting outside instead of charging in he is risking his eternal soul for the sake of improving the odds of the world being saved. If staying outside gets him killed he'll have honourably sacrificed himself for the sake of his family and the world and will be treated as someone who died honourably.


Minrah throwing the vampire into the light is more funny, and easier for readers to understand, than him misting and dying.

It also reduces the amount of people forming theories about Sandy secretly being alive and doing something relevant to the plot. The vampire is tossed into the sunlight, the vampire is completely and utterly dead, there are no do-overs and their part in the story is officially over.

Meanwhile if the last we saw of Sandy was them misting away... "Sandy will join Xykon and enter a climactic fight with Durkon so our friendly dwarven cleric can't help Roy in the final battle with the epic lich! WE NEVER SAW THE BODY THEREFORE THEY MUST STILL HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY!!!111!1!!!"


A.) All that's written is they have 3 hours to get to their coffins. That they didn't have a chance to set up their coffins shouldn't affect that they have 3 more hours before they die, I'd argue.

I thought it was two hours. Also one could probably make up some mumbo jumbo that the only reason they get those two hours is because their coffin ties them to the material plane and without the coffin they just die instantly.

[Ruck]

I did like the Ex-Exarch's final words being about how this wasn't how this was supposed to happen, considering how insistent he's been that everything has its place and its role, and how angry he gets when things don't comply. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1087.html)


You have far more optimistic assessment of this forum's expected existance-span than I do.

I think you have to be an optimist, generally speaking, to expect to be immortalized in any form.

[Worldsong]

Also can I say that I love how Squeaky and his apprentice are essentially aggressively holding their lutes as they stare at the Exarch?

"Aggressive Lute-Holding". It's a skill.

[GregTD]

I think the most merit is behind the point about domination.

The vampires easily dominated all the guards and councilmembers and before that they dominated half of a high level adventuring party including a high level cleric.
But no domination is happening on anyone in Durkons family - even though they are swarming all over the place.

1: Domination is a standard action for a Vamp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)

2: The suffering girl wasn't dominated when here clan leader was. She was, instead, killed in battle. We have no idea how many guards the vamps killed, because the domination failed. For that matter, we have no idea how many guards were dominated only after several attempts

When the vampires outnumbered their opponents, everything went their way. When they were outnumbered, things became harder. They had to pick and chose, under time and information constraints.

No, the complaint has no validity

[Jasdoif]

A.) All that's written is they have 3 hours to get to their coffins. That they didn't have a chance to set up their coffins shouldn't affect that they have 3 more hours before they die, I'd argue.Normally yes. However:


It seems clear to me that vampires reduced to 0 HP without a coffin instantly dust and Rich is just ignoring/retconning how Malack left items behind for the sake of not having the scene cluttered.

As for the beheading, I just assumed it to be an artistic representation of "doing a lot of damage."This is almost all correct, except that it's not a retcon with Malack because Malack does have a coffin, it's just not within range. So he follows the normal vampire rules, while the vampires created by the quick-rise spell (i.e. all the others seen so far) are dead as soon as they hit 0 hp (like most undead). I'm treating it like it is the bond with the coffin that keeps them from dying the moment they hit 0 hp the way most other undead do, rather than an inherent property of their vampire body.

And yes, that's so I don't have to draw a whole bunch of empty armor/robes in every scene.

[Peelee]

Normally yes. However:


Nonono, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to pull out quotes when I'm right, not when I'm wrong!

[Jasdoif]

Nonono, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to pull out quotes when I'm right, not when I'm wrong!Hey, you're not supposed to be wrong in the first place! :smalltongue:

[GregTD]

A.) All that's written is they have 3 hours to get to their coffins. That they didn't have a chance to set up their coffins shouldn't affect that they have 3 more hours before they die, I'd argue.
2.) Staking Durkon's vampire killed him outright when it should have required more than just that, so we already know vampire death is functioning different than core rules to begin with.

If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless.

It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.

A gaseous creature can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form.


In short: It has two hours to get back to its coffin. Then it has to lay there, helpless, for an hour. Then it gets one HP, and then it starts healing normally.

A vamp w/o a coffin is dead once it hits 0 HP, and will never return. The Rule of Funny, and the Rule of dear God, please don't let the Forum fight over this, says "throw him in the sunlight so everyone knows he's dead."

[ackmondual]

Minrah has the best punchline, and it doesn't involve words.:smallamused:
"Time to take out the trash!" :smallsmile:

[Fyraltari]

Very little. They started assembling the family the moment that Durkon came back as a vampire. To rally around his mother in her time of sorrow, if for no other reason.

I mean, seriously. Your lands have been invaded by vampires who are engaging in wanton murder. heck yes any and all high level characters are going to assemble!
How would they know about that before Roggo fetched Sigdi and she sent for the others? That was past midnight.

Normally yes. However:


Wait. Why is Gontor* leaving armor behind, then? Does that mean he secretely has a coffin?

[deuterio12]

I mean, seriously. Your lands have been invaded by vampires who are engaging in wanton murder. heck yes any and all high level characters are going to assemble!


And every last one of them are from Durkon's family. Not a single dwarf from another clan shows up to help besides Hylgia who's Durkon's ex-lover.

Meanwhile outside of Durkon's family the average dwarven competency conveniently drops like a rock as seen as they being able to easily overpower an elite army on the defensive.

I mean, seriously, the Durkon clan should be ruling over all of dwarfkind.



We have no idea how many guards the vamps killed, because the domination failed. For that matter, we have no idea how many guards were dominated only after several attempts

When the vampires outnumbered their opponents, everything went their way. When they were outnumbered, things became harder. They had to pick and chose, under time and information constraints.

They're vampires. Every dwarf they kill is another vampire. Every person they dominate is another number to their ranks. They can perfectly do both and did to cut a path of death accross the dwarven lands, except Durkon's family is both conveniently immune and drastically stronger than any other dwarf.

Nevermind Thor's complicated plan, just sic Durkon's clan at the Snarl and they'll rip the eldritch abomination to pieces in a a couple rounds.

[Fyraltari]

And every last one of them are from Durkon's family. Not a single dwarf from another clan shows up to help besides Hylgia who's Durkon's ex-lover.
Yes actually, Pretty sure Logann's squad, Tinna, Roggo and Minrah have no relations to the Thundershields.


Meanwhile outside of Durkon's family the average dwarven competency conveniently drops like a rock as seen as they being able to easily overpower an elite army on the defensive.
A dozen guys in ornate armor guarding a meeting nobody expects to matter does not qualify as "an elite army ont eh defense", nor does a bunch of priest expecting yet another quiet night of skygazing and being ambushed.
Also High Priestess Rubyrock did pretty good and she's no Thundershield either.
Wait, did Brewmaster Blackore join the fight too?

I mean, seriously, the Durkon clan should be ruling over all of dwarfkind.
Yeah, the rule of law is for wimps! All that matters is who is best at meeting unclear and arbitrary requirement for competency



They're vampires. Every dwarf they kill is another vampire.
No, they're not, they need to kill by level draining and drinking blood and wait three days unless they use a spell and therefore to have had sacrificed a slot for that.

Every person they dominate is another number to their ranks. They can perfectly do both and did to cut a path of death accross the dwarven lands, except Durkon's family is both conveniently immune and drastically stronger than any other dwarf.
No they can't because when they spend a round trying to Dominate one person there are two more hitting them with weapons. Not gonna help their concentration check. Seriously, show us even one vampire attempting to Dominate the little army that got them. They didn,'t even try because it'd be stupid to.

[Jasdoif]

Wait. Why is Gontor* leaving armor behind, then? Does that mean he secretely has a coffin?I think because he was immediately destroyed by exposure to sunlight rather than being reduced to 0 hit points. Malack left his stuff behind after being sun-basted, too:


That's the main reason why I made sure to show him in gaseous form during the Durkon/Malack fight, because that showed that when a vampire is gaseous, they take their equipment with them. Malack's stuff is still there. Hence, he's ash.

[Schroeswald]

Yes actually, Pretty sure Logann's squad, Tinna, Roggo and Minrah have no relations to the Thundershields.


I’m pretty sure no one except for Durkon and Sigdi is related to the Thundershields.

[Fish]

Wait. Why is Gontor* leaving armor behind, then? Does that mean he secretely has a coffin?
He doesn’t need a coffin. That’s just so he can trance in peace.

He can trance if he wants to. He can leave his armor behind..

[Fyraltari]

I’m pretty sure no one except for Durkon and Sigdi is related to the Thundershields.

Family is more than blood.

[Schroeswald]

Family is more than blood.

I’d say Logann’s group is just as reasonable for family as Not-Thad.

[Fish]

And every last one of them are from Durkon's family. Not a single dwarf from another clan shows up to help besides Hylgia who's Durkon's ex-lover.

Meanwhile outside of Durkon's family the average dwarven competency conveniently drops like a rock as seen as they being able to easily overpower an elite army on the defensive.
We’ve covered this. It is a family saved from eternity in Hel’s domain by Sigdi’s selfless act. If course they’re going to focus on not falling back into Hel, because a brush with that afterlife tends to do that to you. They even explain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html) that they’re going to make the most of their second chance: going back to bard college, get a do-over, etc. It would be surprising if almost spending eternity in Hel’s domain didn’t change them.

They're vampires. Every dwarf they kill is another vampire.
After a successful grapple attack, blood drain, and 3 days. They don’t have the EZ Bake Vampire Kit any more.


Every person they dominate is another number to their ranks.
Every person not dominated gets a free hit. And wouldn’t you know it, that’s what happened. Gontor wasted his turn draining Sigdi. Then a dozen attackers each got a turn, and they all used their turn to push Gontor into a sunbeam. How do you imagine this coming out any differently?

They can perfectly do both and did to cut a path of death accross the dwarven lands, except Durkon's family is both conveniently immune and drastically stronger than any other dwarf.
In your imagination, maybe. To me, 12 dwarves with average STR can easily grapple 1 dwarf with vampire strength. He’s not freakin’ Iron Man.

[GregTD]

And every last one of them are from Durkon's family. Not a single dwarf from another clan shows up to help besides Hylgia who's Durkon's ex-lover.

Answered by Fyraltari.


Meanwhile outside of Durkon's family the average dwarven competency conveniently drops like a rock as seen as they being able to easily overpower an elite army on the defensive.

"Ceremonial guard protecting a not that important assembly" != "elite army prepared for attack".

And yes, it's not that important of an assembly. If it was important, that last clan elder wouldn't have been whinging about it.


They're vampires. Every dwarf they kill is another vampire. Every person they dominate is another number to their ranks. They can perfectly do both and did to cut a path of death accross the dwarven lands, except Durkon's family is both conveniently immune and drastically stronger than any other dwarf.

Really?

1: It takes Malak's special spell (which is entirely non-standard) to get a vamp up in less than 1d4 day's time. Durkula had to research the spell before he could use it. It seems strongly unlikely that anyone else has it.
2: Every person they successfully dominate, as their one and only attack that round, joins their side. SO, when they're vastly outnumbered, they have a choice: they can try to guess who's the one creature out there who's the strongest they can dominate, and hope that creature fails his Will Save (stronger the creature, the more likely he is to make the save), or they can do something else, like cast a spell, do do an energy drain attack.
3: If a single vampire could simply hit the Dwarven lans and conquer them all, no challenge, then it would have happened hundreds of years ago.

But, for some reason, it hasn't. hmm, I wonder why that could be?

Could it be because your hypothesis is total garbage?

[woweedd]

Also, I know it's been picked apart endlessly, but, on the subject of Belkar being awoken by the Protection Form Evil claspe, not only has Rich decided to fluff that it causes pain when used in a creature of that alignment, a good way to wake someone up, but it's pretty obvious Belkar's Raging in that scene...A state of being that grants, among other things, a +6 to Constitution, and extra hit points thereof. Since he didn't get hit while in Rage, it's very possible that he was at 0, albeit not going any lower, but the Rage brought him back on up. Mind you, that means if he had gotten hit, he'd have DIED the instant it wore off, but, thankfully, he didn't.

[ti'esar]

Go Minrah.

I mean, the rest of it was pretty awesome too, but her taking out Canonically Nameless Vampire seriously cracked me up.

[Fish]

On the subject of “they could’ve just dominated everyone,” if the vampires had taken the time to do this they would have missed the meeting. Gontor even points out that he’s getting drawn into a useless fight instead of tending to business. He barely made it there on time as it is. Would it have been to his benefit to stand around for 5-6 more rounds to dominate a few more allies, if it cost him his, y’know, his actual god-given plan?

[Worldsong]

Go Minrah.

I mean, the rest of it was pretty awesome too, but her taking out Canonically Nameless Vampire seriously cracked me up.

I'm sure she was empowered with the determination to actually make a difference this time around.

[OracleofWuffing]

What's more intricate and bureaucratic than a holy dwarven council deciding the fate of the world? The grapple rules. :smallwink:

[AutomatedTeller]

That was awesome. I love that the vampire, who is immune to most non-magical attacks, isn't immune to being picked up and held in the sunlight ;)

[Matt620]

That was satisfying.

Also, anyone else notice that Sigdi's arm-less sleeve is an upside-down smiley face?

[Peelee]

Hey, you're not supposed to be wrong in the first place! :smalltongue:
I'll try, I suppose.

He doesn’t need a coffin. That’s just so he can trance in peace.

He can trance if he wants to. He can leave his armor behind..

But the dwarves don't trance and if they don't trance then they're no no vamps of mine.

[goodpeople25]

On Logann not being in the chamber blindness does more than make combat more dangerous, most relevant I think is how it affects movement. (Mechanically he's moving at half speed, and blindness could cause other issues)

Now Logann was right by the barrier when we last left him but we don't know what occurred off-panel.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No they can't because when they spend a round trying to Dominate one person there are two more hitting them with weapons. Not gonna help their concentration check. Seriously, show us even one vampire attempting to Dominate the little army that got them. They didn,'t even try because it'd be stupid to.

We did see what happens. Greg did just that during the battle in the desert against Tarquin’s troops. And what do you know, when badly outnumbered, the dominated soldiers were taken down as fast as he could dominate them. Because it takes an entire vampire’s turn, and the enemy then gets 20 collective turns to take that one guy down.

The math of what happens when the enemy can roll 20 times for each one of yours and the consequences thereof even when there is a massive level difference - which isn’t even the case here - was explained to us back in the siege.

Grey Wolf

[Cinnibar]

And you know the dwarves will eventually get their table back and get into session.


"I now call this meeting to order."

"Been a long time! Oh yeah, I should motion to censure Durkon Thundershield and family for using violence in this chamber to save us all."

"Motion is heard, is there a second?"

*silence*

"Motion dismissed, moving on..."

[Erys]

Logann is probably grappling/pinning the next dominated guard that hit him.

He gets to maintain his honor, contribute where he can, AND be out of the way.

:smallcool:

[happycrow]

Well. That was satisfying.
"You did your work by the law, and now by the law you perish."

[Worldsong]

As a bit of a random comment, I'm guessing the Godsmoot is going to add a rule that the meeting room must have a Dimension Lock cast upon it

[Shining Wrath]

Minrah for the win.

I wonder if there's anyone there with Lesser Restoration prepped?

[Shining Wrath]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.
-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.
-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.
-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.
-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.
-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?
-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.

Turning to mist is a standard action. He used his standard to slam Sigdi. Once he was in the sunlight he couldn't mist, per rules.
So ... he couldn't mist prior to being grappled, as he'd foolishly used his standard on Sigdi in a quest for vengeance.
And ... he couldn't mist once he was in the sunlight, and the grappling kept him there.

There's no Mary Sue involved at all.

[Arkain]

Minrah at it again :smallbiggrin:

[Reboot]

1: It takes Malak's special spell (which is entirely non-standard) to get a vamp up in less than 1d4 day's time. Durkula had to research the spell before he could use it. It seems strongly unlikely that anyone else has it.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Ponchella mentioned using it. If the creator of such a spell "decides to share it with others", they can cast it freely. (And if they choose to share it with their god/dess? Probably every cleric of hell can cast it by now, even the Frontarch)

[jwhouk]

Was mentioned already but it's the right side of the 1st panel of the second page of 1173. There's a plume of smoke approximately where she would have been standing. She also fled the previous fight, so getting out now would certainly be in keeping with what we know of her.

Look behind Gontor*'s speech bubble where he says "That wouldn't have even stopped me if it had hit!" There's a mist shape in the background where Curly Haired Vampire had been standing in the second panel of the comic (beside the old lady saying "Clan Whiterock votes YES.").

[LadyEowyn]

This still doesn't seem like as much of climax as Durkon’s defeat of Durkula, but I think it’s the end of the main action. Now we should be into the conclusion phase.

This is the second book where we’ve had a major climax followed by a secondary climax (in BRITF it was the destruction of the Gate, followed by the fight with Tarquin). And in both cases there seemed to be a fair amount of arc fatigue among forum members during the secondary climax. I’m saying secondary because, in BRITF, it revolved around a secomdary villain trying to kill the. rather than around the main Gate plot, and because in this one, it revolved around Gontor* rather than Durkula.

And, interestingly, in both cases the secondary climax was resolved in large part due to the assistance of secondary characters (Julio and his crew in BRITF; Durkon’s family here). It’s a good way of broadening the story so everything doesn’t revolve around the Order’s actions.

[Aquillion]

So you are not operating under the assumption that the single most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it is probably the right guess?Doesn't matter, the last vote didn't count because it was after the meeting was adjourned. All they have to do is snap that particular dwarf out of it and he can vote "no" instead when it resumes. Without his vote, Hel lacks a majority.

[BlueHydra]

I can't wait to see Hel's reaction to all of this.

[Snails]

As a bit of a random comment, I'm guessing the Godsmoot is going to add a rule that the meeting room must have a Dimension Lock cast upon it

I am guessing the sub-committee on the proposed amendments to dwarven law and their precise jurisdiction within the chamber of the council of elders is going to have a lot of work on its hands...

[DarkLadyNyara]

I don't know what I found funnier- "I'll move to censure once we're back in session", or 'FLING!'

[magic9mushroom]

They used the time to buff up with mind blank or something --> more likely, but is there a reliable enough buff that can be cast that many times?
Protection from Evil is a first level spell that suppresses Charm and Dominate effects and is on the adept, cleric, paladin and sor/wiz lists.

Mind Blank's advantage over PfE is that it blocks a whole pile of things that are [Mind-Affecting] but not actually mind control (e.g. Power Word X, Phantasmal Killer, Sleep, Fear), as well as divination (it also lasts longer). Blocking mind control itself is easy mode, as long as the monsters can't buff-strip you.

Yes, it states direct sunlight.

So all a vampire really needs is a parasol. Would sunblock work?
Sunscreen doesn't absorb all the sunlight, only the bits of it that hurt humans. I see no particular reason these would also be the parts that hurt vampires.

[Doug Lampert]

I think the most merit is behind the point about domination.

The vampires easily dominated all the guards and councilmembers and before that they dominated half of a high level adventuring party including a high level cleric.
But no domination is happening on anyone in Durkons family - even though they are swarming all over the place.

Why?


They used the time to buff up with mind blank or something --> more likely, but is there a reliable enough buff that can be cast that many times?


None of these seem to be very convincing.

Level 1, Protection from Evil. 1 min/level.
Level 3, Magic Circle against Evil. 10 min/level.

Both long duration and 100% effective. If domination worked against Durkon's family, THAT would be a serious flaw in the story. They prepared spells specifically for this action and blocking it is trivial.

There's also the action economy issue, but a group including multiple high level clerics specifically prepared for vampires and knowing what hour the fight will be in will be effectively immune to domination.

Edit: Dang, 8 pages with no one mentioning PfE, then a ninja strikes just as I post.

[Particle_Man]

P.S. I really hope that Rich fixes Sigdi`s axe before the book gets in print. In the last 2 strips it is the dwarven waraxe that fell down the chasm, not the replacement battleaxe she got. A minor continuity error but it bugs my ocd side unreasonably since i noticed it :P

At this point it might be easier for the giant to fix an earlier strip to make the replacement axe look like Sigdi’s original axe.

[BriarHobbit]

There is still one vampire left to go. We also have the matter of restoring Durkon and rescuing that dwarf who got sent to another dimension.

[CriticalFailure]

Also, I know it's been picked apart endlessly, but, on the subject of Belkar being awoken by the Protection Form Evil claspe, not only has Rich decided to fluff that it causes pain when used in a creature of that alignment, a good way to wake someone up, but it's pretty obvious Belkar's Raging in that scene...A state of being that grants, among other things, a +6 to Constitution, and extra hit points thereof. Since he didn't get hit while in Rage, it's very possible that he was at 0, albeit not going any lower, but the Rage brought him back on up. Mind you, that means if he had gotten hit, he'd have DIED the instant it wore off, but, thankfully, he didn't.

Didn't realize he was raging, I always forget about his level in barbarian but that makes so much sense.

[Rogar Demonblud]

PfE and MCaE both would've been stripped away the moment the dwarves entered the structure through the orange barrier.

Actually, I can't remember. Is there a limit on how many people you can control with Dominate, either by number or by Hit Dice?

Oh, and Fyraltari? Open and Shut comes from a bit of legal theatrics. You open the law book, read the relevant statute, and shut the book, having just ended the case. Yes, sometimes it is that simple.

[Reaplay]

See Ya!

Funny thing is, if I'm reading the rules right, killing the council members wouldn't have even worked.
The rules stipulate that you need a representative from each clan in (I assume strong standing?).
So killing the current representatives would have just delayed the vote even more.

[Seward]

Ironically what Minrah did is what you normally do under vanilla rules once you stake the vampire. (staking it is one way to incapacitate without ultimately killing it in D&D 3.x)

Sunlight or running water, whatever is easier. The whole "holy wafer and decapitate" thing is harder to arrange since holy wafers aren't on any equipment list. But that was 1st ed, I am not sure it caried over into 3rd.

But yeah, what everybody else said about action economy and dominate, and action economy wasting Gontor's escape action on attacking Durkon's mom. You are 100% screwed in D&D if you act first and then a whole lot of folks get to go before you or any allies get to go again, unless your action ended the fight (either by winning or escaping). It's bad enough that a weird string of initiative rolls can swing a battle if all of one side "clumps up" and is a primary reason why some high level parties try to get everybody on a pretty high initiative check, encouraging spell selection, feat selection and item selection to try to get the entire party going first and ending the fight in before any opposition goes. (the term Rocket Tag applies). It is also why surprise is really dangerous - not only does the opposition get an action, their high init rollers get another action before anybody gets to react.

I saw nothing dodgy about any of that. In 3.5 grapping the d20 looms large and the more folks rolling a d20, the higher the odds that somebody will make a roll that Gontor won't beat with his die roll, unless he also lucks out, rolls high and is actually a better grappler than others who also rolled high.

With cleric BAB, a not terribly imposing physique for a dwarf, the strength bonus for being a vampire isn't going to give him a grapple check larger than a typical mid-level fighter, and you gotta know that the folks with decent grapple checks were in front of that crowd (right behind the Bull Rush woman). Including the first guy who established the grapple having the actual improved grapple feat, so Gontor didn't get an attack of opportunity to prevent it.

He'd need luck on the order of the die roll that dominated Hilgya to get out of that situation, and the dice (and author) didn't cooperate.

[Flint_A]

Vamps can't mist in the sunlight.

"Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape."

"As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will..."

A standard action is not a move or attack action. It needs to move out of the sunlight before being able to mist.

If it spends that one action trying and failing to get out of a grapple...it's dead the next round. Easy peasy.

[Ascaloth]

I'm disappointed in this comic.

The Giant missed a trick, and went with FLING when he was all set up to go with YEET. :smallbiggrin:

[Reboot]

Mind Blank's advantage over PfE is that it blocks a whole pile of things that are [Mind-Affecting] but not actually mind control (e.g. Power Word X, Phantasmal Killer, Sleep, Fear), as well as divination (it also lasts longer).
Also, there's the "supresses vs blocks" thing - you absolutely can get dominated before or during the duration of PfE, and it will (re)activate the round when it ends or is dispelled. [And remember that, even if Rich isn't following it, per RAW vampire domination doesn't end with the vamp being ended - you need to make a secondary saving throw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html), have Break Enchantment or similar cast on you or wait out potentially a couple of weeks following their last orders. Mind Blank actually prevents or ends it entirely.]


PfE and MCaE both would've been stripped away the moment the dwarves entered the structure through the orange barrier.

Not if they were cast between the barriers. They knew about that, and no vampire actually tried to dominate anyone outside it anyway.

[Aetius]

2: The suffering girl wasn't dominated when here clan leader was. She was, instead, killed in battle. We have no idea how many guards the vamps killed, because the domination failed. For that matter, we have no idea how many guards were dominated only after several attempts

The suffering girl wasn't dominated when her clan leader and the two bodyguards were. So three out of four were dominated instantly. And since I learned that domination can only target one person and there were only three vampires there every vampire managed to dominate it's target. So it's a 100% success rate. So all the examples we do have indicate a high success rate if no buffs are in place. Which - as someone pointed out - there couldn't have been due to the orange barrier.


We did see what happens. Greg did just that during the battle in the desert against Tarquin’s troops. And what do you know, when badly outnumbered, the dominated soldiers were taken down as fast as he could dominate them. Because it takes an entire vampire’s turn, and the enemy then gets 20 collective turns to take that one guy down.

And that is actually a good deal for the vampire, because everyone who uses his turn to take down the dominated guy can't use his turn to take down the vampire. That's why Greg kept using it in the desert. It worked. Might not have been the best possible strategy but it was an effective way to stall the army.

If Gontor did run away to the central chamber or used spells affecting multiple targets I would agree that it would have been stupid to waste time on attempted domination instead.

But he used harm (on Durkon), energy drain (on Sigdi) and blindness (on Logann). All of them use up your turn and leave all of the enemies to use their's. So the point about how that leaves the enemy to rush you with superior

Ecspecially blindness is bugging me. In what possible way is that any better than domination?
It still takes a standard action to do.
It takes a spell slot.
It's less likely to succeed. At least I think it is against Logann because as a fighter he should have a better chance to make his fortitude save against blindness than his will save against domination, no?
And what does it achieve? If Durkon sacrifices his standard action to simply dispels the condition it doesn't matter which one has been used.
If Loganns turn is before the condition is cured then domination is better.
If the condition is not cured and a bunch of dwaves gang up on Logann instead of storming the central chamber then domination is better.

[Schroeswald]

So... where is Gontor's soul going? His death was pretty clearly not honorable, but was his soul included in the past years worth of souls Thor prepared an argument for or not due to the whole still being on the world thing.

[St Fan]

Ecspecially blindness is bugging me. In what possible way is that any better than domination?
It still takes a standard action to do.
It takes a spell slot.
It's less likely to succeed. At least I think it is against Logann because as a fighter he should have a better chance to make his fortitude save against blindness than his will save against domination, no?
And what does it achieve? If Durkon sacrifices his standard action to simply dispels the condition it doesn't matter which one has been used.
If Loganns turn is before the condition is cured then domination is better.
If the condition is not cured and a bunch of dwaves gang up on Logann instead of storming the central chamber then domination is better.

Oh look, the characters in the comics are making subpar fighting decisions!

As if they were, you know, actual individuals with flaws unable to make the right choice in a split-second rather than players sitting at a table and taking minutes to make the most perfect tactical decision at the behest of characters that have only six seconds to think!

HOW CAN A WORLD WHERE NOT EVERYBODY IS A MINMAXER CAN BE REMOTELY REALISTIC?

[Kantaki]

Ecspecially blindness is bugging me. In what possible way is that any better than domination?
It still takes a standard action to do.
It takes a spell slot.
It's less likely to succeed. At least I think it is against Logann because as a fighter he should have a better chance to make his fortitude save against blindness than his will save against domination, no?
And what does it achieve? If Durkon sacrifices his standard action to simply dispels the condition it doesn't matter which one has been used.
If Loganns turn is before the condition is cured then domination is better.
If the condition is not cured and a bunch of dwaves gang up on Logann instead of storming the central chamber then domination is better.

Blindness is better because if it works it works.
Domination can be broken when the victim has to act against their core beliefs/nature/whatever you call it.
See Ho Than being confronted with a (fake) Shojo.
And I don't doubt fighting your own family would qualify for most dwarves and Clan Thundershield in particular.

Besides, I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to have as atrocious saves as some generic background NPCs and Belkar.