Fighter ASI's

[paladinn]

So everyone gets 5 ASI's over their 20 levels, and fighters get 2 more.

Assuming the standard attribute array and the fighting style of your choice, how would you use a fighters 7 ASI's/ feats? Do you think 7 are too many when other martial types (esp. the barbarian) only get 5?

I remember when no one got ASI's at all. Just wanted some opinions as to best uses.

Thanks!

[Emongnome777]

Those ASIs help with feat-heavy builds such as PAM / GWM / Sentinel or SS / CBE. For instance, it’ll take 5 ASIs to get the first trio and your Strength to 20. Outside of a human, that takes you to 14th level.

Other uses of ASIs beyond those needed for your build would be Resilient, Lucky, Tough, Alert, etc. Pumping Constitution is never bad.

[GlenSmash!]

Along with Maxing main stat, core feats for combat like PAM/Sentinel for a protector or PAM/GWM for a melee damage dealer. or SS/CBE for a Ranged damage dealer. Defensive feats like Lucky and Resilient Wisdom.

In a Featless game I'd go with more Con and Wis, unless I was an Eldritch Knight, then Con and Int.

While I'd love to have those extra ASIs on a Barbarian I think that would make the Barbarian outpace the Fighter due to its innate toughness and Accuracy boosts.

[paladinn]

I'm curious about the rationale behind the extra ASI's. If they represent training, other classes (rangers, etc) probably have just as much. If they represent physical conditioning, I'm sure barbarians compete.

In 3e, I think the extra feats were doled out just so someone would actually play a "basic" fighter. And of course there were all the "dead levels" :(

[DeTess]

I'm curious about the rationale behind the extra ASI's. If they represent training, other classes (rangers, etc) probably have just as much. If they represent physical conditioning, I'm sure barbarians compete.


I think they might represent the fighters more 'varried' training. So a ranger or barbarian would need to follow a very specific path to learn all their stuff, with no 'free' space. However, a fighter has some space where they can decide for themselves what they want to learn next without falling behind on their core fighters study, giving them the extra ASI's.

If we where to compare fighter and ranger to a college education, ranger would be a very specialized and dense major, with no space for personal customization. The Fighter major would not be quite as dense, with some space for customization and picking your own courses within the curriculum.

[GlenSmash!]

It wouldn't surprise me if the rational was to let a fighter choose an iconic feat to help determine their theme, as the default fighter options (at least form the PHB) can be bland.

[Yakmala]

There's many ways to go about it, all equally valid.

Here's what I did for my longest played 5E character, a Level 20 Variant Human Dexterity based sword and board Battlemaster with the Duelist fighting style.

ASI and Feat Progression:
*Level 1: Resilient +1 Dex (16)
*Level 4 ASI: +2 Dex (18)
*Level 6 ASI: +2 Dex (20)
*Level 8: Defensive Duelist
*Level 12: Sentinel
*Level 14 ASI: +2 Con (18)
*Level 16: Shield Master
*Level 19 ASI: +2 Con (20)
*Manual of Quickness of Action:
+2 Dex (22)

[Snails]

It wouldn't surprise me if the rational was to let a fighter choose an iconic feat to help determine their theme, as the default fighter options (at least form the PHB) can be bland.

I second that. While officially Feats are purely optional, I think the unspoken expectation is that taking a Feat after the primary stat hits 20 is common. For a Fighter, they have some extra room to take a Feat at 8th or even 6th level, and thus qualitatively improve their tactical options, and still feel comfortable with how their stats are progressing.

I agree that there is little sense in arguing the Fighter is intrinsically better at improving Str and Con than the Barbarian or Ranger. But if we think of those "extra ASIs" as actually Feats (that it just so happens the Fighter can convert to stat improvements), I think the Fighter class as the "major" with more room for flexibility makes more sense.

[paladinn]

There's many ways to go about it, all equally valid.

Here's what I did for my longest played 5E character, a Level 20 Variant Human Dexterity based sword and board Battlemaster with the Duelist fighting style.

ASI and Feat Progression:
*Level 1: Resilient +1 Dex (16)
*Level 4 ASI: +2 Dex (18)
*Level 6 ASI: +2 Dex (20)
*Level 8: Defensive Duelist
*Level 12: Sentinel
*Level 14 ASI: +2 Con (18)
*Level 16: Shield Master
*Level 19 ASI: +2 Con (20)
*Manual of Quickness of Action:
+2 Dex (22)

Can you actually get a stat of 22? I thought 20 was the absolute cap under any circumstances. Gotta love bounded accuracy.

[paladinn]

I second that. While officially Feats are purely optional, I think the unspoken expectation is that taking a Feat after the primary stat hits 20 is common. For a Fighter, they have some extra room to take a Feat at 8th or even 6th level, and thus qualitatively improve their tactical options, and still feel comfortable with how their stats are progressing.

I agree that there is little sense in arguing the Fighter is intrinsically better at improving Str and Con than the Barbarian or Ranger. But if we think of those "extra ASIs" as actually Feats (that it just so happens the Fighter can convert to stat improvements), I think the Fighter class as the "major" with more room for flexibility makes more sense.

Soo.. what do you do with a DM who doesn't allow feats?

[KRSW]

I think all martial classes train their body quite a bit but their are a few differences for all of them:
Barbarians get more powerful through honing their rage to become an unstoppable force.
Paladins get more powerful through their devotion to their oath/deity to become a peerless champion.
Rangers in 5E, I think have very little identity in respect to how they become more powerful, but I like to think that they are the most generalist adventurer there is. I like to think they become more powerful simply because they obsess over the inevitable victory over their enemies. They are like an out-doors man pursuing the mastery of hunting.

Fighters, master a lot of different things, they can be angry, but not to the same intensity of a barbarian. They can be religious and devout but do not take it to the level of paladin. They can even cast spells if they choose that path, but not anywhere near as well as the other classes.

Instead of having all these wonderful abilities they are just normal people who have the willpower to do what they have to and push their body to its limits. I think the extra ASIs and other things they get are a pretty good representation of that.

For the DM not allowing feats I simply would not play a fighter with that DM, nor would I play any martial character to be honest. But, if you still want to, just max STR/DEX and then CON second and then any leftover should probably go to WIS.

to clarify Im not saying dont play with DMs who dont use feats, Im just saying that I the player would not play a martial character in those situations.

[GlenSmash!]

Can you actually get a stat of 22? I thought 20 was the absolute cap under any circumstances. Gotta love bounded accuracy.

Barbarian capstone takes stat maxes for Con and Str to 24.

Belts of Giant Strength also take Str above 20.

Stat increasing Manuals also can raise the cap above 20.

30 is the hard cap for ability scores, including magic items.

[Damon_Tor]

Soo.. what do you do with a DM who doesn't allow feats?

The same sorts of things you do with a drunken sailor, early in the morning.

[Aprender]

@Damon Tor

I don't know where you've gone and been, but I see you've won first prize.

[TyGuy]

It wouldn't surprise me if the rational was to let a fighter choose an iconic feat to help determine their theme, as the default fighter options (at least form the PHB) can be bland.

This is the rationale. It's essentially the eldritch invocation of the rather flavor neutral fighter chassis.

[Yuki Akuma]

Fighters in 5e have more ASIs because Fighters in 3e had more feats.

That's it.

What I wanna know is why Rogues have more...

[MeeposFire]

Honestly it is due to the classes needing class features at certain sort of levels and that was the best they came up with in some constraints that they put on themselves (more than likely they did not want to have multiple sub class abilities back to back such as at fighter level 6 and 7 and it needed to be general enough that all fighters and rogues made sense to have it). It also helps that fighters already had a version that included general increases (bonus feats in 3e for instance and also more weapon prof points in 2e) similarly with the rogue they had special abilities that they chose from a list which is not all that dissimilar to bonus feats.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So everyone gets 5 ASI's over their 20 levels, and fighters get 2 more.

Assuming the standard attribute array and the fighting style of your choice, how would you use a fighters 7 ASI's/ feats? Do you think 7 are too many when other martial types (esp. the barbarian) only get 5?

I remember when no one got ASI's at all. Just wanted some opinions as to best uses.

Thanks!

Rogue gets 6 ASI, they get a bonus ASI at level 10. A lot of people overlook this.

Honestly, with the way the math works out you don't need an 18 before level 12 and you really don't need a 20 ever.

I would dump most of them for feats to make up for my fighter's lack of interesting class features.


Edit: Rogues get 6 ASI because non-magical classes are at a disadvantage. The Fighter has more because it isn't designed as well as the Rogue. The barbarian gets less ASI than the two other martials because it's actually pretty rare to see a non-magical Barbarian (Frenzy and the dwarven armored one are non-magical).

[Yakmala]

Honestly, with the way the math works out you don't need an 18 before level 12 and you really don't need a 20 ever.

I would dump most of them for feats to make up for my fighter's lack of interesting class features.

I would agree for Strength based fighters. Strength does not provide that much. But for Dexterity based fighters, piling on the Dexterity is always a good thing.

Imagine a Feat called "Agility Master" that provided the following:

+1 to attack bonus and damage with finesse and ranged weapons.
+1 bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor.
+1 to saves vs. most area of effect attacks.
+1 to all Dexterity based skills.
+1 to Initiative checks.



That's one heck of a Feat! And that's what putting an ASI into Dexterity gives you.

[Reevh]

Barbarian capstone takes stat maxes for Con and Str to 24.

Belts of Giant Strength also take Str above 20.

Stat increasing Manuals also can raise the cap above 20.

30 is the hard cap for ability scores, including magic items.

There's also a card in the Deck of Many Things that can do it, but that's risky as hell.

[Damon_Tor]

There's also a card in the Deck of Many Things that can do it, but that's risky as hell.

There are ways to game the Deck of Many Things, like using Divination to see if you should draw the next card. If it's a bad card, make someone else draw it. A summoned creature maybe.

[GlenSmash!]

There are ways to game the Deck of Many Things, like using Divination to see if you should draw the next card. If it's a bad card, make someone else draw it. A summoned creature maybe.

Clever, clever.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I would agree for Strength based fighters. Strength does not provide that much. But for Dexterity based fighters, piling on the Dexterity is always a good thing.

Imagine a Feat called "Agility Master" that provided the following:

+1 to attack bonus and damage with finesse and ranged weapons.
+1 bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor.
+1 to saves vs. most area of effect attacks.
+1 to all Dexterity based skills.
+1 to Initiative checks.



That's one heck of a Feat! And that's what putting an ASI into Dexterity gives you.

It's good, but not needed. Most creatures before high CRs don't have amazing stats.

Just because Dex is useful doesn't mean it's needed.

[GlenSmash!]

I would dump most of them for feats to make up for my fighter's lack of interesting class features.

I once stated up a vHuman UA Scout Fighter with no more than 14 in any stat, but by level 12 had 5 of the UA skill feats, so he had expertise in a Skill governed by each stat except Constitution.

*sigh* never got to play him though.

[CNagy]

It might just be that I rarely play single class characters, but the Fighter (with its 6th level ASI) feels like it is made for multiclass builds.

[KorvinStarmast]

Can you actually get a stat of 22? I thought 20 was the absolute cap under any circumstances. Gotta love bounded accuracy.


Manual of Quickness of Action

Wondrous item, very rare

This book contains coordination and balance exercises, and its words are charged with magic. If you
spend 48 hours over a period of 6 days or fewer studying the book’s contents and practicing its
guidelines, your Dexterity score increases by 2, as does your maximum for that score. The maximum in the PHB is 20. This manual allows it to be 22.

[MeeposFire]

The maximum for ASIs is 20 but that is not an actual limit to ability scores in general. Now many things also mention a limit of 20 but essentially every thing that increases an ability score will mention a limit which can be higher (such as with the barb capstone).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It might just be that I rarely play single class characters, but the Fighter (with its 6th level ASI) feels like it is made for multiclass builds.

I think it's more to do with the fact that Fighters get some really good stuff at levels 1 - 3 and then fall off the map. Other classes just keep on getting cool stuff but fighters get "the same thing but again" features like extra attack, asi, action surge, indomitable, and other stuff.

[paladinn]

I think it's more to do with the fact that Fighters get some really good stuff at levels 1 - 3 and then fall off the map. Other classes just keep on getting cool stuff but fighters get "the same thing but again" features like extra attack, asi, action surge, indomitable, and other stuff.

The funny thing about this is, all those things were given to the fighter so they would get "cool stuff" and not have all the "dead levels." Now that they have them, people complain about that too!

I remember in 4e, fighters (like other classes) got "new stuff" every level; but most of the time the "new stuff" was the Old stuff repackaged. Let's face it, there are only so many ways to say, "You hit harder", "You hit more accurately", "Your armor works better", etc.

Fighters are fighters.. they use the same abilities, just to greater effect.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The funny thing about this is, all those things were given to the fighter so they would get "cool stuff" and not have all the "dead levels." Now that they have them, people complain about that too!

I remember in 4e, fighters (like other classes) got "new stuff" every level; but most of the time the "new stuff" was the Old stuff repackaged. Let's face it, there are only so many ways to say, "You hit harder", "You hit more accurately", "Your armor works better", etc.

Fighters are fighters.. they use the same abilities, just to greater effect.

4e Fighters got different effects when they hit stuff. That's the difference between 4e fighters and other fighters. Yeah, they hit stuff hard, but being able to heal yourself or cause a penalty to your enemy is a far cry away from "I do HP damage and then MORE HP damage".

4e fighters weren't perfect, but they're so much better than the 5e fighter. Especially simce the 5e fighter is just a Essential's fighter that looks like 3e.


The 5e Fighter just stops growing with cool things to do. Even their non-magical subclasses are the same way :(.

[Yuki Akuma]

There are ways to game the Deck of Many Things, like using Divination to see if you should draw the next card. If it's a bad card, make someone else draw it. A summoned creature maybe.

This shouldn't work. You declare how many cards you're going to draw, then you must draw them, and after that the deck vanishes.

If you cast Augury before declaring, you'll just get Weal and Woe in equal measure.

[paladinn]

4e Fighters got different effects when they hit stuff. That's the difference between 4e fighters and other fighters. Yeah, they hit stuff hard, but being able to heal yourself or cause a penalty to your enemy is a far cry away from "I do HP damage and then MORE HP damage".

4e fighters weren't perfect, but they're so much better than the 5e fighter. Especially simce the 5e fighter is just a Essential's fighter that looks like 3e.


The 5e Fighter just stops growing with cool things to do. Even their non-magical subclasses are the same way :(.

A lot of those effects were also tied to the mat. 5e makes the mat optional. I like that.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

A lot of those effects were also tied to the mat. 5e makes the mat optional. I like that.

The mat was easily removed, I don't think we used a mat but a couple times.

1 square is 5', just change your squares to feet and there's no difference.

I've seen way more 5e (or 3e) games ran with a mat than 4e.