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Conradine
2019-08-09, 11:50 AM
Let's say we have a setting were is exceptionally hard to advance past 20th level. There's something like an "invisible wall" which prevents leveling at epic level with experience alone.
What could be non munchkin, storytelling - consistent ways to gain levels, or even generic power / ECL?

The Book of Vile Darkness and the Exalted Deeds looks like good ways, as the other artifact-tome like the libram.
The Ritual of Vitality do not grants level but it still grants hit dices and ECL.
Lychantropy could be another way to get more power but I feel it a bit cheesy.

Other sources or ideas?

NNescio
2019-08-09, 12:20 PM
Let's say we have a setting were is exceptionally hard to advance past 20th level. There's something like an "invisible wall" which prevents leveling at epic level with experience alone.
What could be non munchkin, storytelling - consistent ways to gain levels, or even generic power / ECL?

The Book of Vile Darkness and the Exalted Deeds looks like good ways, as the other artifact-tome like the libram.
The Ritual of Vitality do not grants level but it still grants hit dices and ECL.
Lychantropy could be another way to get more power but I feel it a bit cheesy.

Other sources or ideas?

You could try Magic Jar with a Polymorph Any Object custom body. Shapechange can work for a limited time, sorta. Then there's (Greater) Consumptive Field, 'though they gets cheesy if you Persist it.

Minions also give effective power, so you can try Planar Binding. Gate is also okay if used for its intended purpose (without going full on daisy-chaining it).

liquidformat
2019-08-09, 12:35 PM
So the web enhancement for kobold gives them an extra caster level of sorcerer, that might be the hop to power specifically for kobold by utilizing their dragon blood.

Gaining divinity level 0, seems to me to be a great bottleneck that must be passed for the average creature to gain epic levels both thematically and mechanically since Epic levels normally break the system anyways.

Segev
2019-08-09, 01:16 PM
Once you start looking to gain levels without actually having to gain levels, you're almost definitionally in "munchkin" territory.

If you just want access to class ABILITIES, then mind control spells and powers and/or leadership can get you allies/minions who have class levels, more or less of your choosing (especially if you see personally to their training).

What abilities and powers are you looking to acquire?

pabelfly
2019-08-09, 02:16 PM
I'd base it on the lore of your game. If creatures on the material plane are limited to level 20, maybe you have to visit other planes to level further, be infused with some special essence, or have characters go on a quest from their deity to gain lesser godhood or something.

Conradine
2019-08-09, 02:21 PM
Once you start looking to gain levels without actually having to gain levels, you're almost definitionally in "munchkin" territory.


Well, not necessarily.

Gaining a level with thought bottle tricks is munchinism indeed.

But doing a quest to retrieve a copy of the Book of Vile Darkness ( or a libram, or similar tome of power ), or completing a special dungeon that give an automatic level up, or getting the ingredients for a super elisir that gives you a level...

smasher0404
2019-08-09, 02:37 PM
If you just want to boost your ECL templates are an easy way to go:

Vampirism
Be a True Dragon and advance an Age Category
Be Undead and live long enough to gain the Evolved Undead template
Mineral Warrior via Mineralize Warrior
Lichdom
Etc.

PoeticallyPsyco
2019-08-09, 02:39 PM
In this context, I'd say that acquiring powerful templates (apparently there're some rituals in Savage Species that let you do that) wouldn't be munchkinism, but the logical next step for acquiring power. Once you've achieved the maximum of mortal power you can get by training, you use magic to increase the strength of your body.

However, unfortunately the most appropriate template for gaining additional class features (Symbiotic Creature) is also completely broken (seriously, used (im)properly this template can gestalt in a non-gestalt game, only stronger than an actual gestalt). At 20th level I'd still probably allow some particularly flavorful uses, though, like a wizard operating a Huge plant creature like a mech.

liquidformat
2019-08-09, 02:46 PM
gaining sainthood although it doesn't increase anything in and of itself seems like a thematic way to step into epic levels. Perhaps doing a quest to gain sainthood.

Another interesting idea is to have to take over a lesser plane and use that plane to 'power' your abilities and take you beyond the steps of mortals...