Hel's Downfall

[Worldsong]

This thought came to me while replying to #1174's thread but I actually like it enough to make an independent thread for it. Although it probably won't be a big thread because a) it's a bit far-fetched, and b) we'll see how Hel loses soon enough.

The cornerstone of this theory is that The Giant does use the ruling that vampires are thralls of their sire until that sire either willingly releases them or is destroyed. Another important factor is that even if you are sired by a vampire following one god your own god can still be a different one. I imagine that which pantheon you belong to/worship determines where your vampire soul comes from.

Now, the current situation is that only two vampires are left alive, one of them at the Godsmoot and the other misting for her life. Both of them were most likely sired by either Greg or the Exarch. Both of those are now dead. That means that the odds of those two still being thralls at this point is abysmal. Of course they could have been released before this point but I doubt Greg would risk having to deal with a vampire opposed to his plan and it's been made clear that the reason he was willing to do Hel's bidding wasn't because he was a Northern vampire but because he, specifically, was on board with this plan. Greg himself points out Hel wouldn't have been able to do anything if Durkon's vampire soul happened to have no interest in the entire business.

So the thought here is that the vampire still left at the Godsmoot, the Frontarch, is no longer enthralled and might no longer have any reason to be part of this plan. She might not even be Hel's follower at this point. With nothing forcing her to go along with the plan she'll one way or another null Hel's vote, thus bringing an end to the entire vote as the answer to whether they should destroy the world becomes a resounding "No". All those demigods are no longer important because the only reason their vote mattered was because Hel introduced a tie.

Would this invalidate the importance of Dvalin and the council of clans? Not really. The vampires based their plan around delaying the Order of the Stick for long enough that the council could vote to destroy the world. They were constantly retreating. The Order couldn't actually destroy all the vampires before now, so it was still vital to try and stop the council.

Would this invalidate the interference of the Order? Not really. They were needed to destroy most of the vampires and to help Durkon reach the council chamber to both halt the council meeting and help get rid of the Exarch, the last link Hel had to the Frontarch. And Durkon's presence was definitely needed for all of that, so it doesn't invalidate Durkon's actions and character growth either.

This would also fall in line with Hel, once again, missing a vital piece of the puzzle. If she'd told Greg to not bother fighting the Order and instead just go hide away at the council meeting there'd have been no danger to her plan, but in her confidence that everything was going according to plan she didn't realize that for all those vampires to keep acting according to her will she'd need Greg and the Exarch to remain alive (unalive).

It would also allow for this story arc to have an actual ending, rather than the possibility of the entire "should we destroy the world" vote just hanging up in the air as the dwarves try to find a new table. Of course a conclusive ending could also be reached by quickly finding a new table and having the council vote against the destruction of the world, but so far the dwarves have acted as if that might take a while, and honestly I'd personally find it more satisfying if the rules of the Godsmoot also ended up being abused to defeat Hel. If I remember correctly it was specifically mentioned that for Hel's vote to count she needed her High Priest present at the Godsmoot, so that would end up being foreshadowing to the end of her plan being that her High Priest is no longer at the Godsmoot.

[The Pilgrim]

The Frontarch can't vote "no", because the votes aren't issued by the Clerics, but by the Gods themselves trough them via the Summon Proxy spell.

However, if the Frontarch quits Hel's religion, that would still leave Hel with no vessel to vote trough. So the Godsmoot would stand resolved.

Story wise, though, it's best to leave the Godsmoot unresolved so all those high level clerics are left stranded there with no capacity to intervene in the final conflict between the Order and Team Evil.

EDIT: That said, even though her plans have been twarted, it's still in the interests of Hel to get the last Gate destroyed, so that the Gods pull the plug and she gets to cash the Dearven Souls. So if The Giant is done with her, he better makes her lose all capacity to influence the Material Plane, that is, have all her vampire clerics either destroyed or stranded at the Godsmoot.

[Worldsong]

The Frontarch can't vote "no", because the votes aren't issued by the Clerics, but by the Gods themselves trough them via the Summon Proxy spell.

However, if the Frontarch quits Hel's religion, that would still leave Hel with no vessel to vote trough. So the Godsmoot would stand resolved.

Story wise, though, it's best to leave the Godsmoot unresolved so all those high level clerics are left stranded there with no capacity to intervene in the final conflict between the Order and Team Evil.

The Frontarch quitting the religion is pretty much the core idea of this theory yes.

As for the importance of keeping all the high level clerics stuck inside the Godsmoot... I can see how that would also be a reasonable progression of the story but honestly I think that if The Giant doesn't want them to get involved he can find a lot of ways to prevent them assaulting Xykon. The easiest one would be that none of them trust one another and they just keep each other busy.

[Jasdoif]

As for the importance of keeping all the high level clerics stuck inside the Godsmoot... I can see how that would also be a reasonable progression of the story but honestly I think that if The Giant doesn't want them to get involved he can find a lot of ways to prevent them assaulting Xykon. The easiest one would be that none of them trust one another and they just keep each other busy....no, I think the "easiest" one would be "they're still stuck where they've already been established to be stuck", as that takes no additional effort to introduce.

[Worldsong]

...no, I think the "easiest" one would be "they're still stuck where they've already been established to be stuck", as that takes no additional effort to introduce.

Given that my previous post was meant to suggest the easiest alternative to having them be stuck turning back to the idea of them being stuck doesn't really work.

I mean it WOULD be the easiest answer but it wouldn't be the easiest alternative because it's not an alternative, it's the original idea I was suggesting an alternative for.

[xroads]

Having the Frontarch walk out the door is certainly a possibility. Rich has done a great job of leaving himself several possible endings to choose from. This one is in my top three list of possible resolutions.



Story wise, though, it's best to leave the Godsmoot unresolved so all those high level clerics are left stranded there with no capacity to intervene in the final conflict between the Order and Team Evil.

EDIT: That said, even though her plans have been twarted, it's still in the interests of Hel to get the last Gate destroyed, so that the Gods pull the plug and she gets to cash the Dearven Souls. So if The Giant is done with her, he better makes her lose all capacity to influence the Material Plane, that is, have all her vampire clerics either destroyed or stranded at the Godsmoot.

I suspect it will be resolved. If only because an unresolved vote is essentially the same thing as a vote of "No." The gods who were voting not to destroy the world wanted to wait and see what happened next. But who knows, maybe leaving it unresolved will increase the pressure on the OOTS.

As for Hel herself I suspect, that much like Tarquin, her role in the story is near an end. Even Belkar :belkar: couldn't help but comment that Hel was already "serving some seriously weak tea. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1080.html)"

[Dion]

The frontarch is a mid level vampire in a room full of high level clerics. The only thing keeping her alive (er, unalive) are the rules of the godsmoot that prevent the entire assembled mass from destroying her.

So yeah, she can certainly decide to stop being Hel’s high priest, and go worship rocks, or Nergal, or whatever. But she has at least one concrete reason to choose to be a cleric of Hel and follow Hel’s plans right now.

[Worldsong]

The frontarch is a mid level vampire in a room full of high level clerics. The only thing keeping her alive (er, unalive) are the rules of the godsmoot that prevent the entire assembled mass from destroying her.

So yeah, she can certainly decide to stop being Hel’s high priest, and go worship rocks, or Nergal, or whatever. But she has at least one concrete reason to choose to be a cleric of Hel and follow Hel’s plans right now.

Now that I think about it, I feel like the Frontarch leaving might have been suggested in the past. It's true that the Frontarch might decide against abandoning her spot because she doesn't want to be smitten down.

On the other hand she might also try to bargain for safe passage out of the Godsmoot because she'd rather not have the world be destroyed.

[Jasdoif]

Given that my previous post was meant to suggest the easiest alternative to having them be stuck turning back to the idea of them being stuck doesn't really work.

I mean it WOULD be the easiest answer but it wouldn't be the easiest alternative because it's not an alternative, it's the original idea I was suggesting an alternative for.Sounds to me like this isn't a point in favor of there being an alternative in place.

That being the case, is there a point in favor of there being an alternative in place? The Order doesn't have the luxury of waiting around and hoping Xykon and company don't mangle the last Gate no matter how long the council and Godsmoot take, so this whole theory doesn't seem to have any real points in favor of the effort it'd take to introduce it. It looks to me like a long set of "it isn't impossible for this to happen", which...I find unmoving.

[Dion]

I expect the entire assembled body of clerics, representing the combined might of all the religious orders of the north, to continue resolutely doing everything they’ve previously been shown to do to destroy Xykon.

Nuttin.

[Worldsong]

Sounds to me like this isn't a point in favor of there being an alternative in place.

That being the case, is there a point in favor of there being an alternative in place? The Order doesn't have the luxury of waiting around and hoping Xykon and company don't mangle the last Gate no matter how long the council and Godsmoot take, so this whole theory doesn't seem to have any real points in favor of the effort it'd take to introduce it. It looks to me like a long set of "it isn't impossible for this to happen", which...I find unmoving.

The reason for the alternative would be that narratively speaking being told that the entire vote is just put on hold could be considered kind of an anti-climactic ending to the story arc.

It's essentially just me talking about a resolution which I'd find a more interesting end to the story arc than saying "And now they're all stuck there". I'll admit it's far-fetched and that it doesn't actually change much for the Order since either way they'll end up having to fight Xykon alone (since I'd assume that The Giant could find a way to keep the high priests out of the fight) but honestly I never made this thread with the idea of it being the most likely turn of events, just one I'd be in favour of.

[Jasdoif]

The reason for the alternative would be that narratively speaking being told that the entire vote is just put on hold could be considered kind of an anti-climactic ending to the story arc.

It's essentially just me talking about a resolution which I'd find a more interesting end to the story arc than saying "And now they're all stuck there". I'll admit it's far-fetched and that it doesn't actually change much for the Order since either way they'll end up having to fight Xykon alone (since I'd assume that The Giant could find a way to keep the high priests out of the fight) but honestly I never made this thread with the idea of it being the most likely turn of events, just one I'd be in favour of.Okay, with that scope in mind....

This Council of Elders conflict is the conclusion to the Godsmoot story arc...which I feel is secondary to Durkon's character arc, and a sideshow to the Team Evil arc. How much effort is it really worth to give it a climactic ending (say...a cutaway to the Godsmoot to show the change of heart)? Especially since any technique that would work for Hel's high priest should also have been doable by any other high priest whose god voted to destroy the world, regardless of what happened at the Council...so how climactic would it really be?

As for if Hel had told HPoH not to bother fighting the Order....She told him she didn't care if Roy lived or died; just to keep him away from the meeting. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html) That does tie into the book's repeating theme of "seeing what you want to see and paying for your willful lack of vision", though: HPoH heard what he wanted to do in Hel's instructions, and carried his desires out.


Admittedly, it could be funny if it turned out the Council was superfluous after all this...but it'd have to be a really good joke to make up for the sense of wasted time it'd evoke.

[Worldsong]

Okay, with that scope in mind....

This Council of Elders conflict is the conclusion to the Godsmoot story arc...which I feel is secondary to Durkon's character arc, and a sideshow to the Team Evil arc. How much effort is it really worth to give it a climactic ending (say...a cutaway to the Godsmoot to show the change of heart)? Especially since any technique that would work for Hel's high priest should also have been doable by any other high priest whose god voted to destroy the world, regardless of what happened at the Council...so how climactic would it really be?

As for if Hel had told HPoH not to bother fighting the Order....She told him she didn't care if Roy lived or died; just to keep him away from the meeting. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html) That does tie into the book's repeating theme of "seeing what you want to see and paying for your willful lack of vision", though: HPoH heard what he wanted to do in Hel's instructions, and carried his desires out.


Admittedly, it could be funny if it turned out the Council was superfluous after all this...but it'd have to be a really good joke to make up for the sense of wasted time it'd evoke.

I mean... your first argument kind of sounds like it's less about whether the ending to the arc is a good one and more that you don't really care much for the entire situation and just want to move on. Which does give you reason to prefer the easiest solution but doesn't really work as an argument for people who found the arc more interesting and actually want to see a good ending to it.

Also the thing with the high priests is that all of those guys (for so far as we're aware) are voluntarily devoted to their deities and won't willingly go against what their god tells them to do. The Frontarch on the other hand is a former member of the Creed of the Stone who got killed and turned into a vampire and then told to act as the high priest of Hel because the vampire who turned her told her to do so.

Of course there's people arguing that she might not be enthralled but I feel fairly confident in basing a theory on the assumption that Greg wouldn't have released his vampire spawn from his control if he didn't absolutely need to. That doesn't mean that it's bound to be correct but it seems fairly plausible.

So unlike all those other high priests this vampire doesn't necessarily have much reason to heed Hel's will. And being evil doesn't equate to wanting the world to be destroyed, especially if you're aware that there's no guarantee that you'll survive the time it'll take for the gods to make a new world. So I'd say it'd still be very climactic because it'd mean that Hel's vote being rendered null would be a direct result of the Order (and Durkon in particular) dealing with the vampires, in the process freeing the high priest from her thrall so she can decide not to play along with Hel's plan any longer, something which she wouldn't have done if her sire was still alive and which the other high priests wouldn't do because they wouldn't oppose their deity.

And yes her ambigious comment resulted in Greg taking the interpretation he preferred, which does tie into the theme of taking your preferred perspective and running with it, but it could also been seen as an example of Hel once more being overconfident and overlooking a flaw in her plan, namely that if Greg and the Exarch were to die there's no guarantee the rest of the vampires are going to follow the plan.

And it wouldn't render the council superfluous, because for as long as the vampires were still a threat the council voting yes would in fact still have caused the world to end. It's just a way to wrap up the arc after the immediate threat has passed. Neither the other high priests nor the Frontarch would have nulled their vote by walking out before this point, it would only be the hard work of killing Greg and the Exarch which would allow for that option. And for as long as the Frontarch is present at the Godsmoot the council was a real threat, a weapon that Hel was planning to use to achieve her goal. Just because they wouldn't actually render the final vote wouldn't null the threat them voting yes posed for the duration of the fight against the vampires, nor would it make all that effort a waste of time.

[Jasdoif]

I mean... your first argument kind of sounds like it's less about whether the ending to the arc is a good one and more that you don't really care much for the entire situation and just want to move on.More like whether spending more time on the arc is worth the disruption it'd cause to other arcs, in pacing if nothing else. Trying to juggle the needs of multiple arcs isn't always as straightforward as might be hoped.


Also the thing with the high priests is that all of those guys (for so far as we're aware) are voluntarily devoted to their deities and won't willingly go against what their god tells them to do.Such as if Heimdall were to tell his high priest to resign? He apparently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) has a reputation.

[Worldsong]

More like whether spending more time on the arc is worth the disruption it'd cause to other arcs, in pacing if nothing else. Trying to juggle the needs of multiple arcs isn't always as straightforward as might be hoped.

It's true that it's importance to balance the different storylines, although I feel like this could be a pretty minor interruption. Hel, you could probably do it within half a page, with the high priest saying something like "Well, I was only here because my sire told me to be here, but with my sire dead (and the plan probably a bust) I'll just take my leave. I'd be grateful if nobody tried to dust me on my way out." It'd be simple, to the point, and it'd also help indicate that she can only take this action after the other vampires are dead so the actions the Order, Durkon and his family took still hold meaning.

Also on the threat of the other high priests offing her if she tries to abandon her spot, wouldn't the rules keeping her protected only fall away the moment she leaves the meeting chamber? And the other high priests aren't going to leave the chamber so with all the guards dead getting out safely might actually not be that difficult.


Such as if Heimdall were to tell his high priest to resign? He apparently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) has a reputation.

The fact that this appears to not have happened can imply two things:

1. The high priests can't take any action that would render their deity's vote moot/they can't leave the chamber at all. If this is the case this entire theory will be invalid because it depends on the high priests being able to act.
2. While the high priests can null the vote of their deity by leaving there are drawbacks for the deity if that happens, preventing someone like Heimdall telling their high priest to walk out. The Frontarch might be the only one willing to swallow the drawbacks because she doesn't really care about what happens to Hel, especially since she doesn't necessarily have any attachment to Hel and if she starts worshipping a different deity Hel can't really do much to punish her for it.

EDIT: although I took that particular scene less as a sign that Heimdall is known for changing his vote, and more that Hel is aware that Heimdall was the one representing the faction in favour of destroying the world and is gloating that he can't change sides now that he knows what destroying the world would actually entail in full.

[Jasdoif]

It's true that it's importance to balance the different storylines, although I feel like this could be a pretty minor interruption. Hel, you could probably do it within half a page, with the high priest saying something like "Well, I was only here because my sire told me to be here, but with my sire dead (and the plan probably a bust) I'll just take my leave. I'd be grateful if nobody tried to dust me on my way out." It'd be simple, to the point, and it'd also help indicate that she can only take this action after the other vampires are dead so the actions the Order, Durkon and his family took still hold meaning.

Also on the threat of the other high priests offing her if she tries to abandon her spot, wouldn't the rules keeping her protected only fall away the moment she leaves the meeting chamber? And the other high priests aren't going to leave the chamber so with all the guards dead getting out safely might actually not be that difficult.Physically leaving is a problem, as that's what the barrier is there for (that's why I keep talking about her resignation):


The barrier is a normal part of the Godsmoot. It's the answer to the question that was voiced repeatedly around these parts, "Why doesn't one of the high priests just step out of the room and nullify the vote?" but I can't fit everything in every comic, so we haven't seen it until now.

The fact that this appears to not have happened can imply two things:

1. The high priests can't take any action that would render their deity's vote moot/they can't leave the chamber at all. If this is the case this entire theory will be invalid because it depends on the high priests being able to act.
2. While the high priests can null the vote of their deity by leaving there are drawbacks for the deity if that happens, preventing someone like Heimdall telling their high priest to walk out. The Frontarch might be the only one willing to swallow the drawbacks because she doesn't really care about what happens to Hel, especially since she doesn't necessarily have any attachment to Hel and if she starts worshipping a different deity Hel can't really do much to punish her for it.See, this is what I mean about it not being climactic. You've got an entirely reasonable chain of events that leads to Hel's high priestess rescending her vote...in a way that any of the "destroy the world" votes could have done themselves, before Roy even left, if only they or their deities had thought of it. Now, you could certainly wring some comedy out of it:

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/HelPriestNew_zps2n8vrypl.png: I...I don't know what I should do!
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/LokiPriest_zps3q39ecy5.png: You could resign as high priestess.
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/HelPriestNew_zps2n8vrypl.png: Oh! That's a good idea!
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/SunnaPriest_zpsdckepdvq.png: Wait. You mean I could've done that at any time?
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/LokiPriest_zps3q39ecy5.png: No, not at any time. Only when it was funny!
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/SunnaPriest_zpsdckepdvq.png: Ugh, this is why we don't have a god of buffoonery, isn't it?
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/SifPriest_zpsd9k6o5ka.png: No I think we do have a god of buffoonery....

But climactic? That's a harder sell.

[Worldsong]

Physically leaving is a problem, as that's what the barrier is there for (that's why I keep talking about her resignation):



Okay, so the only option is resigning in some form then. That would make survival a bit trickier.


See, this is what I mean about it not being climactic. You've got an entirely reasonable chain of events that leads to Hel's high priestess rescending her vote...in a way that any of the "destroy the world" votes could have done themselves, before Roy even left, if only they or their deities had thought of it. Now, you could certainly wring some comedy out of it:

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/HelPriestNew_zps2n8vrypl.png: I...I don't know what I should do!
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/LokiPriest_zps3q39ecy5.png: You could resign as high priestess.
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/HelPriestNew_zps2n8vrypl.png: Oh! That's a good idea!
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/SunnaPriest_zpsdckepdvq.png: Wait. You mean I could've done that at any time?
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/LokiPriest_zps3q39ecy5.png: No, not at any time. Only when it was funny!
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/SunnaPriest_zpsdckepdvq.png: Ugh, this is why we don't have a god of buffoonery, isn't it?
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/SifPriest_zpsd9k6o5ka.png: No I think we do have a god of buffoonery....

But climactic? That's a harder sell.

I think the obstacle we have here is that I think that for actual high priests resigning is unthinkable, whereas you seem to see it as a lot less a momentous decision. The only reason that it's different for the high priestess of Hel is that she only got shoehorned into that position for the sake of the plan and (so far as I can tell) forcefully so through her inability to go against the will of her sire.

If you think that any high priest could treat resigning as a realistic option then yes it's not very climactic, but I think that for them their faith and their devotion to their deity is way too important for that.

EDIT: I mean that sun guy explicitly is used as the example of a high priest who does not consider going against the will of his deity a valid option, even when that means helping a vampire and supporting the destruction of the world.

EDIT2: Actually I've thought of a reason why the gods can't just tell their high priests to resign. It probably goes against the established "No Backsies" rule since abandoning the vote entirely is like a weaker version of changing your vote because while you don't strengthen the opposition you are weakening the side you originally were supporting.

[PirateMonk]

This Council of Elders conflict is the conclusion to the Godsmoot story arc...which I feel is secondary to Durkon's character arc, and a sideshow to the Team Evil arc. How much effort is it really worth to give it a climactic ending (say...a cutaway to the Godsmoot to show the change of heart)? Especially since any technique that would work for Hel's high priest should also have been doable by any other high priest whose god voted to destroy the world, regardless of what happened at the Council...so how climactic would it really be?

The very fact that it's a sideshow to the main plot is what makes it necessary to give the Godsmoot a clear resolution, if not necessarily a climactic one. If the story is trying to refocus on Xykon as the main villain, the reader shouldn't be left wondering if Hel will figure out a way to cause more trouble.

That said, the particular resolution suggested here doesn't seem very plausible. Aside from the issues already discussed, given Hel and Durkon*'s enthusiasm for contingency planning, if they thought it was possible for an unenthralled high priest to withdraw their vote and likely that any of them would choose to, they would have put more effort in to choosing a loyal high priest just in case instead of picking the one at the front.

[Worldsong]

The very fact that it's a sideshow to the main plot is what makes it necessary to give the Godsmoot a clear resolution, if not necessarily a climactic one. If the story is trying to refocus on Xykon as the main villain, the reader shouldn't be left wondering if Hel will figure out a way to cause more trouble.

That said, the particular resolution suggested here doesn't seem very plausible. Aside from the issues already discussed, given Hel and Durkon*'s enthusiasm for contingency planning, if they thought it was possible for an unenthralled high priest to withdraw their vote and likely that any of them would choose to, they would have put more effort in to choosing a loyal high priest just in case instead of picking the one at the front.

Hmmm... That is true, although I was imagining it'd be a display of Hel making mistakes again. And Greg didn't have much time to choose his successor...

Well, that said, I've already admitted that this theory isn't very likely, just one that I happen to like. The discussion between Jasdoif and I is more focused on whether it would actually be a satisfying conclusion if it did happen.

[Erys]

This thought came to me while replying to #1174's thread but I actually like it enough to make an independent thread for it. Although it probably won't be a big thread because a) it's a bit far-fetched, and b) we'll see how Hel loses soon enough.

The cornerstone of this theory is that The Giant does use the ruling that vampires are thralls of their sire until that sire either willingly releases them or is destroyed. Another important factor is that even if you are sired by a vampire following one god your own god can still be a different one. I imagine that which pantheon you belong to/worship determines where your vampire soul comes from.

Now, the current situation is that only two vampires are left alive, one of them at the Godsmoot and the other misting for her life. Both of them were most likely sired by either Greg or the Exarch. Both of those are now dead. That means that the odds of those two still being thralls at this point is abysmal. Of course they could have been released before this point but I doubt Greg would risk having to deal with a vampire opposed to his plan and it's been made clear that the reason he was willing to do Hel's bidding wasn't because he was a Northern vampire but because he, specifically, was on board with this plan. Greg himself points out Hel wouldn't have been able to do anything if Durkon's vampire soul happened to have no interest in the entire business.

So the thought here is that the vampire still left at the Godsmoot, the Frontarch, is no longer enthralled and might no longer have any reason to be part of this plan. She might not even be Hel's follower at this point. With nothing forcing her to go along with the plan she'll one way or another null Hel's vote, thus bringing an end to the entire vote as the answer to whether they should destroy the world becomes a resounding "No". All those demigods are no longer important because the only reason their vote mattered was because Hel introduced a tie.

Would this invalidate the importance of Dvalin and the council of clans? Not really. The vampires based their plan around delaying the Order of the Stick for long enough that the council could vote to destroy the world. They were constantly retreating. The Order couldn't actually destroy all the vampires before now, so it was still vital to try and stop the council.

Would this invalidate the interference of the Order? Not really. They were needed to destroy most of the vampires and to help Durkon reach the council chamber to both halt the council meeting and help get rid of the Exarch, the last link Hel had to the Frontarch. And Durkon's presence was definitely needed for all of that, so it doesn't invalidate Durkon's actions and character growth either.

This would also fall in line with Hel, once again, missing a vital piece of the puzzle. If she'd told Greg to not bother fighting the Order and instead just go hide away at the council meeting there'd have been no danger to her plan, but in her confidence that everything was going according to plan she didn't realize that for all those vampires to keep acting according to her will she'd need Greg and the Exarch to remain alive (unalive).

It would also allow for this story arc to have an actual ending, rather than the possibility of the entire "should we destroy the world" vote just hanging up in the air as the dwarves try to find a new table. Of course a conclusive ending could also be reached by quickly finding a new table and having the council vote against the destruction of the world, but so far the dwarves have acted as if that might take a while, and honestly I'd personally find it more satisfying if the rules of the Godsmoot also ended up being abused to defeat Hel. If I remember correctly it was specifically mentioned that for Hel's vote to count she needed her High Priest present at the Godsmoot, so that would end up being foreshadowing to the end of her plan being that her High Priest is no longer at the Godsmoot.

There is one major sticking point that I see right out the gate: The rules as presented seems to suggest that you get one vote and once cast it remains until the matter is resolved. All the votes at the Godsmoot are locked, save one.

As long the last dwarf yet to vote is not dominated by the time the table is fixed/repaired --> the good guys win... for now.

Dundundun

[Worldsong]

There is one major sticking point that I see right out the gate: The rules as presented seems to suggest that you get one vote and once cast it remains until the matter is resolved. All the votes at the Godsmoot are locked, save one.

As long the last dwarf yet to vote is not dominated by the time the table is fixed/repaired --> the good guys win... for now.

Dundundun

"Wrecan, am I correct in thinking that the gods must have a physical representative in the room in order for their vote to count?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html)

[WindStruck]

Having the Frontarch walk out the door is certainly a possibility. Rich has done a great job of leaving himself several possible endings to choose from. This one is in my top three list of possible resolutions.



I suspect it will be resolved. If only because an unresolved vote is essentially the same thing as a vote of "No." The gods who were voting not to destroy the world wanted to wait and see what happened next. But who knows, maybe leaving it unresolved will increase the pressure on the OOTS.

As for Hel herself I suspect, that much like Tarquin, her role in the story is near an end. Even Belkar :belkar: couldn't help but comment that Hel was already "serving some seriously weak tea. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1080.html)"

Um... I just realized... the comic after that.

Everyone still has Sphinx Pox!! :smalleek:

Oh no, it's worse than I thought! First the gnomes got it, then probably everyone at the godsmoot, and now it's going to spread to all the dwarves! They'll never know what hit them! Maybe Hel will get a huge chunk of dwarf souls anyway because they die to the disease!

Imagine every cleric from all over the world going back to their respective lands after this is all over and spreading the disease everywhere. It'll be like that epidemic movie!

[Squire Doodad]

Um... I just realized... the comic after that.

Everyone still has Sphinx Pox!! :smalleek:

Oh no, it's worse than I thought! First the gnomes got it, then probably everyone at the godsmoot, and now it's going to spread to all the dwarves! They'll never know what hit them! Maybe Hel will get a huge chunk of dwarf souls anyway because they die to the disease!

Imagine every cleric from all over the world going back to their respective lands after this is all over and spreading the disease everywhere. It'll be like that epidemic movie!

This is a world where a cureall panacea can be used by anyone who has blugeoned a good bunch of creatures into fine mist. You might see a couple people die from it, but there's nothing to suggest that Remove Disease won't eliminate the issue fairly soon.
In fact, Remove Disease is probably the only reason why you can have airships but not industrial-revolution hygiene improvements and yet society doesn't die out.

[KorvinStarmast]

In fact, Remove Disease is probably the only reason why you can have airships but not industrial-revolution hygiene improvements and yet society doesn't die out.
Yeah: disease vectors via air travel are one of those "unintended consequences" of modern life. And we got no paladins to lay on hands, so we rely on doctors and scientists ... but now that I thnk of it, ships that sail the seas also provide diseases a vehicle for spreading. Bubonic plague comes to mind, and the flue pandemic of 1919 ish ....

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In fact, Remove Disease is probably the only reason why you can have airships but not industrial-revolution hygiene improvements and yet society doesn't die out.

Don't discount the random encounter table: this society doesn't seem to be increasing its population numbers. Disease only becomes a society-killer when population density is high enough. Only when a society is so dense it can have high rates of specialization can a major plague 1) take root and b) significantly affect the economy.

OotS has some specialization, yes, but even the largest cities we've seen seem to have pops in the order of 10^5, not the 10^6-7 needed for some truly spectacular breaks in civilization caused by a plague.

I'd also be wary of placing undue importance on airships. Long-range commerce has existed since before recorded history, and plagues went along those commerce routes from the start. And indeed, hygiene improvements took their sweet time to arrive after the industrial revolution, and even with an influenza plague thrown in the midst of a global conflict, society didn't really come close to collapsing.

Grey Wolf

[xroads]

Um... I just realized... the comic after that.

Everyone still has Sphinx Pox!! :smalleek:

Oh no, it's worse than I thought! First the gnomes got it, then probably everyone at the godsmoot, and now it's going to spread to all the dwarves! They'll never know what hit them! Maybe Hel will get a huge chunk of dwarf souls anyway because they die to the disease!

Imagine every cleric from all over the world going back to their respective lands after this is all over and spreading the disease everywhere. It'll be like that epidemic movie!

It certainly would be a nice consolation prize for Hel. But I don't think it would be a major outbreak.

The existence of clerical magic probably helps to curb disease outbreaks. Durkula even implies as much when he's lecturing Durkon about gods & their domains (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html).

Besides, I bet many diseased dwarves pick up an axe and dive head first into the nearest fight hoping to die with honor. Heck, I bet there are dwarven orderlies who specialize in giving dying dwarves one last fight.

Hmmm... I think I have an idea for my next character in a D&D game! :smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

The very fact that it's a sideshow to the main plot is what makes it necessary to give the Godsmoot a clear resolution, if not necessarily a climactic one. If the story is trying to refocus on Xykon as the main villain, the reader shouldn't be left wondering if Hel will figure out a way to cause more trouble.In the clear resolution department, Veldrina sending to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html) is very well prepared: it's already been established, and also obviates needing to show all the wrapup details at the Godsmoot.

[mjasghar]

To avoid massive walls of quotes I’ll just make the point
Vampires as we have been shown so far are not the original person corrupted
They are negative plane spirits summoned / created by a death god who inhabit a body and imprison the original soul
In time their personalities may overlap so they are indistinguishable but they are still distinct entities; specifically the inherent evil can only be suppressed.
Durkon didn’t stop being a priest of Thor he just got hijacked
Since those turned vamps were created in the North they must be servants of Hel who chose to be her clerics - regardless of how cooperative their host soul becomes

[brian 333]

I don't see a problem with the Godsmoot that requires its resolution within the span of time left in the comic.

It's simply a non-issue. The clerics who have already channeled their deities' vote can't change them because of the "No Backsies" rule, so even if the Frontarch is dusted or resigns, Hel's vote stands.

As for all those clerics, it might be amusing to see them at the north pole for a showdown between the preserve/destroy factions, but not necessary. The OotS has to save the day, not some random high priests.

So, no. The resolution of the Godsmoot is not worth the page it would take to show it unless The Giant has something funny enough to make it worthwhile.

Maybe a bonus strip.

[Jannoire]

It's simply a non-issue. The clerics who have already channeled their deities' vote can't change them because of the "No Backsies" rule, so even if the Frontarch is dusted or resigns, Hel's vote stands.

Wrong.

Hel needs a cleric / high priest at the moot for her vote to count. The priest is not just for voting and then leaves, the priest needs to be present throughout the whole meeting.
That's why Roy started fighting Greg. If Greg would've undied, Hel's vote would've been void.
That's why Greg needed the Frontarchess to stand in line as a successor.
If the Frontarchess gets dusted, the Moot is resolved, as there is no tie between the gods.

Admittedly, this won't make for a great story about the Order, but it is a possibility nonetheless.

[Squire Doodad]

Wrong.

Hel needs a cleric / high priest at the moot for her vote to count. The priest is not just for voting and then leaves, the priest needs to be present throughout the whole meeting.
That's why Roy started fighting Greg. If Greg would've undied, Hel's vote would've been void.
That's why Greg needed the Frontarchess to stand in line as a successor.
If the Frontarchess gets dusted, the Moot is resolved, as there is no tie between the gods.

Admittedly, this won't make for a great story about the Order, but it is a possibility nonetheless.

Given the way the high priests treat the rules of the moot, nothing will or even could happen to kill the Frontarchess short of "a meteor busts the wall in, and no one else had protection from daylight available".

[Worldsong]

To avoid massive walls of quotes I’ll just make the point
Vampires as we have been shown so far are not the original person corrupted
They are negative plane spirits summoned / created by a death god who inhabit a body and imprison the original soul
In time their personalities may overlap so they are indistinguishable but they are still distinct entities; specifically the inherent evil can only be suppressed.
Durkon didn’t stop being a priest of Thor he just got hijacked
Since those turned vamps were created in the North they must be servants of Hel who chose to be her clerics - regardless of how cooperative their host soul becomes

Dunno if this necessarily invalides your last point but I feel like it should be mentioned that Durkon's vampire self originated from Hel's domain despite Durkon being turned into a vampire in the West, as indicated by comic #952 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html).

Where your vampire self comes from appears to depend on which pantheon you belong to, not where you died. And the Frontarchess isn't a dwarf so while we can speculate about where she comes from and which pantheon she might belong to at least it's certain she doesn't automatically get filed into Hel's domain.

It might be that her vampire self originated from a Western god but that, being Greg's thrall, she's forced to act as a cleric and servant of Hel until the vampire who sired her either releases her or is no more.


Given the way the high priests treat the rules of the moot, nothing will or even could happen to kill the Frontarchess short of "a meteor busts the wall in, and no one else had protection from daylight available".

I was more thinking of her resigning her position and negotiating safe passage out of the Godsmoot (not necessarily in that order). That said it's true that we're talking about a very long shot here.

However wasn't Protection From Daylight a spell Malack (and later Greg) had to research on their own? Given that clerics usually have full access to all the spells their god can provide I don't think it's a spell most clerics are likely to have on hand or even know of, given that only a vampire cleric really has a pressing need for it and thus the motivation to research it.

Then again I could imagine the cleric of some god of darkness having access to it.

[Quebbster]

Dunno if this necessarily invalides your last point but I feel like it should be mentioned that Durkon's vampire self originated from Hel's domain despite Durkon being turned into a vampire in the West, as indicated by comic #952 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html).
Do you mean comic #946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)? Either way, I have to Point out that that comic says that the dwarves fall under Hel's purview, it doesn't really mention other Northerners. I assume Nergal or the appropriate Elven god would get to make Elf vampires since they are part of the Western Pantheon, but whether the same rule applies to humans is hard to say.

Where your vampire self comes from appears to depend on which pantheon you belong to, not where you died. And the Frontarchess isn't a dwarf so while we can speculate about where she comes from and which pantheon she might belong to at least it's certain she doesn't automatically get filed into Hel's domain.

It might be that her vampire self originated from a Western god but that, being Greg's thrall, she's forced to act as a cleric and servant of Hel until the vampire who sired her either releases her or is no more.
The Frontarchess seems to have an Azurite skin toning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html), so he might fall under the purview of the Southern Gods. I don't Think she's a thrall though, she seems too independent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html) to be Reliant on someone else.

I was more thinking of her resigning her position and negotiating safe passage out of the Godsmoot (not necessarily in that order). That said it's true that we're talking about a very long shot here.

However wasn't Protection From Daylight a spell Malack (and later Greg) had to research on their own? Given that clerics usually have full access to all the spells their god can provide I don't think it's a spell most clerics are likely to have on hand or even know of, given that only a vampire cleric really has a pressing need for it and thus the motivation to research it.

Then again I could imagine the cleric of some god of darkness having access to it.
Malack researched it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html), but Greg did not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1101.html) - he researched the Quick Rise spell instead. On the other hand, Ponchula knew Quick Rise too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html), so presumably a spell can be shared once researched. Not that it helps since the staff was destroyed and no one know Protection from Daylight at the moment...

[Worldsong]

Do you mean comic #946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)? Either way, I have to Point out that that comic says that the dwarves fall under Hel's purview, it doesn't really mention other Northerners. I assume Nergal or the appropriate Elven god would get to make Elf vampires since they are part of the Western Pantheon, but whether the same rule applies to humans is hard to say.

I was thinking about the end of #952 where Roy mentions that they only passed into Northern territory half an hour ago, but #946 works too. And it might be that usually the location where you die does matter but dwarves are a special case (although that once again brings up the question what the other gods think of the Bet).


The Frontarchess seems to have an Azurite skin toning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html), so he might fall under the purview of the Southern Gods. I don't Think she's a thrall though, she seems too independent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html) to be Reliant on someone else.

I'll admit the thrall thing is a point of confusion for me. On one hand Greg did behave a lot differently as a thrall, on the other I keep reading that as Greg just pulling a con and Malack failing to notice it for the same reason he failed to notice that he's standing in the middle of the desert at noon right next to someone who very much wants him dead.

I'd actually want to ask The Giant whether vampire thralls have limited cognitive ability or not since it seems to me like it could go either way.


Malack researched it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html), but Greg did not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1101.html) - he researched the Quick Rise spell instead. On the other hand, Ponchula knew Quick Rise too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html), so presumably a spell can be shared once researched. Not that it helps since the staff was destroyed and no one know Protection from Daylight at the moment...

Oh, right, I forgot about Haley pointing out that Greg wouldn't have much reason to research it. Good call. But yes that does actually decrease the odds further of there being a cleric who knows Protection From Daylight since Greg wouldn't even have been able to pass it on.

[deuterio12]

Oh, right, I forgot about Haley pointing out that Greg wouldn't have much reason to research it. Good call. But yes that does actually decrease the odds further of there being a cleric who knows Protection From Daylight since Greg wouldn't even have been able to pass it on.

You're confusing clerics with wizards.

Clerics need to pray to their gods to get spells. They can't get spells on their own.

So Hel would know any special custom spell her vampire clerics prepare. Because they need to request them from her in the first place.

Or the alternative is the heretical possibility that clerics actually cast from their own power and thus don't need gods at all for the proccess. Cue not needing to pray to the gods at all, they've got nothing to offer you after all, if you can just research your own superior custom divine magic.

[Worldsong]

You're confusing clerics with wizards.

Clerics need to pray to their gods to get spells. They can't get spells on their own.

So Hel would know any special custom spell her vampire clerics prepare. Because they need to request them from her in the first place.

Or the alternative is the heretical possibility that clerics actually cast from their own power and thus don't need gods at all for the proccess. Cue not needing to pray to the gods at all, they've got nothing to offer you after all, if you can just research your own superior custom divine magic.

In all fairness I'm used to wizards being the only ones who research spells a lot.

I mean for all we know when it comes to custom spells the cleric provides the spell and the deity provides the divine power to activate the spell. Otherwise we end up in strange territory where the first cleric of a deity to research a particular spell essentially teaches that spell to the deity, because if only the deity needs to know how the spell works there'd be no reason for Durkon to research Mass Death Ward, he'd just have asked what it's called and then rely on Thor providing it later on.

[deuterio12]

In all fairness I'm used to wizards being the only ones who research spells a lot.

I mean for all we know when it comes to custom spells the cleric provides the spell and the deity provides the divine power to activate the spell. Otherwise we end up in strange territory where the first cleric of a deity to research a particular spell essentially teaches that spell to the deity, because if only the deity needs to know how the spell works there'd be no reason for Durkon to research Mass Death Ward, he'd just have asked what it's called and then rely on Thor providing it later on.

Since Durkon missed the bit that Mallack's Mass Death Ward has a desactivation password, Durkon himself didn't know how the spell worked either.

Basically Mallack went "hey there's this cool FREE TOTALLY SAFE NO VIRUS DOWNLOAD NOW mass death ward spell, why don't you pray to your god for it?" and Durkon fell for it like a sucker. Probably the reason why other clerics don't bother praying for it, every undead worth their salt must know the password. Durkon's however the kind of gullible idiot who couldn't tell a cleric of his deity's nemesis if they slept together and has "red tea" with vampires and thus would fall for good old "FREE TOTALLY SAFE NO VIRUS DOWNLOAD NOW mass deathward spell" ploy.

[Worldsong]

Since Durkon missed the bit that Mallack's Mass Death Ward has a desactivation password, Durkon himself didn't know how the spell worked either.

Basically Mallack went "hey there's this cool FREE TOTALLY SAFE NO VIRUS DOWNLOAD NOW mass death ward spell, why don't you pray to your god for it?" and Durkon fell for it like a sucker. Probably the reason why other clerics don't bother praying for it, every undead worth their salt must know the password. Durkon's however the kind of gullible idiot who couldn't tell a cleric of his deity's nemesis if they slept together and has "red tea" with vampires and thus would fall for good old "FREE TOTALLY SAFE NO VIRUS DOWNLOAD NOW mass deathward spell" ploy.

That's... not how knowledge works.

If you know a lot about a subject but someone informs you of a little known fact you weren't aware of yet that doesn't invalidate every other piece of knowledge you had about that subject.

Knowing how a spell works doesn't mean you automatically know about every possible backdoor, the same way that knowing a lot about programming doesn't instantly reveal every weakness in a code.

And the rest of your post is just you relapsing into intentionally taking the most negative interpretation of every single part of the comic to justify being negative towards the entire comic. And even if you weren't being excessively negative it still wouldn't work because it'd still not explain why Durkon needed to research Mass Death Ward and why Greg needed to research Quick Raise Vampire.

[deuterio12]

That's... not how knowledge works.

If you know a lot about a subject but someone informs you of a little known fact you weren't aware of yet that doesn't invalidate every other piece of knowledge you had about that subject.

Knowing how a spell works doesn't mean you automatically know about every possible backdoor, the same way that knowing a lot about programming doesn't instantly reveal every weakness in a code.

Wait, magic is programming now? Divine magic is programming?

Because last time I checked when a caster knows a spell, they know all of said spell's parameters. There's no space for hidden "lines of code" in D&D spellcasting.



And the rest of your post is just you relapsing into intentionally taking the most negative interpretation of every single part of the comic to justify being negative towards the entire comic. And even if you weren't being excessively negative it still wouldn't work because it'd still not explain why Durkon needed to research Mass Death Ward and why Greg needed to research Quick Raise Vampire.

Reminder that praying for a specific spell is quite the delicate proccess in OotSverse and if you don't pick your words very carefully you may end with inflict colon cancer prepared when you wanted to heal somebody. So after Mallack tells Durkon to pray for "FREE TOTALLY SAFE NO VIRUS mass deathward", Durkon would need to research how to properly pray for that so he doesn't end with Mass Greater Inflict Colon Cancer or something worst instead.

Then of course gods having ubersenses and having developed the magic system in the first place and having monopoly of said system (unlike regular D&D where clerics can just worship vague ideals), it would be really absurd that said gods can't tell what their clerics are doing with their own divine magic.

[Worldsong]

Wait, magic is programming now? Divine magic is programming?

Because last time I checked when a caster knows a spell, they know all of said spell's parameters. There's no space for hidden "lines of code" in D&D spellcasting.

I'll have to check whether that's actually written down in the rules or whether that's just one of those unwritten things everyone assumes because it's easier to play a spellcaster if you don't have to pretend that your character has no idea what they're actually doing.

Also most base spells are pretty straightforward so knowing everything there is to know about them isn't exactly a challenge. It's much easier for a custom spell to hold some secrets which aren't automatically revealed to the caster, as long as that secret isn't vital to the spell actually functioning.

And why wouldn't we compare spellcasting to programming? Wizards are rather consistently depicted as the fantasy equivalents of nerds and they put time and effort into figuring out how magic actually works, and as aforementioned they're the ones most likely to research new spells or be responsible for custom spells. And magic is often treated as a form of science, which is why wizards spend so long studying it.


Reminder that praying for a specific spell is quite the delicate proccess in OotSverse and if you don't pick your words very carefully you may end with inflict colon cancer prepared when you wanted to heal somebody. So after Mallack tells Durkon to pray for "FREE TOTALLY SAFE NO VIRUS mass deathward", Durkon would need to research how to properly pray for that so he doesn't end with Mass Greater Inflict Colon Cancer or something worst instead.

Then of course gods having ubersenses and having developed the magic system in the first place and having monopoly of said system (unlike regular D&D where clerics can just worship vague ideals), it would be really absurd that said gods can't tell what their clerics are doing with their own divine magic.

Basing your argument on one of the earliest strips still is not a convincing argument when the other side of the discussion has some awareness of The Giant's opinions regarding his own comic.

That said it can be true that the cleric needs to know how to pray the correct way, but that would render the discussion moot since this entire thing started with the idea that there's no actual requirement for a cleric to cast a custom spell as long as their deity is willing to provide because you've suddenly replaced the requirement "Must know enough about the spell to cast it" with "Must know how to pray for the spell to cast it".

Also if gods had a monopoly on divine magic (thus in some way justifying your hatred for them) the Creed of the Stone wouldn't exist. They've explicitly been stated as a group of clerics who gain their divine magic from a source other than gods, namely the Elemental Plane of Earth (or just the elementals living there).

[Schroeswald]

Wait, magic is programming now? Divine magic is programming?

Because last time I checked when a caster knows a spell, they know all of said spell's parameters. There's no space for hidden "lines of code" in D&D spellcasting.

Or, the anti-Mass Death Ward thing is a spell, that Malack knows and declined to teach Durkon, that seems perfectly plausible.


Reminder that praying for a specific spell is quite the delicate proccess in OotSverse and if you don't pick your words very carefully you may end with inflict colon cancer prepared when you wanted to heal somebody. So after Mallack tells Durkon to pray for "FREE TOTALLY SAFE NO VIRUS mass deathward", Durkon would need to research how to properly pray for that so he doesn't end with Mass Greater Inflict Colon Cancer or something worst instead.

Then of course gods having ubersenses and having developed the magic system in the first place and having monopoly of said system (unlike regular D&D where clerics can just worship vague ideals), it would be really absurd that said gods can't tell what their clerics are doing with their own divine magic.
Or, the gods decided that some divine spells need to be researched by clerics to learn, there’s something that could be true and explains this.

There! I’ve found two plausible explanations for your complaints that require no more leaps in logic than you’ve made.

[KorvinStarmast]

So, no. The resolution of the Godsmoot is not worth the page it would take to show it unless The Giant has something funny enough to make it worthwhile. Given his wry sense of humor, I'm gonna bet on this.


Then of course gods having ubersenses and having developed the magic system in the first place and having monopoly of said system (unlike regular D&D where clerics can just worship vague ideals), Are you referring to the original game?


it's easier to play a spellcaster if you don't have to pretend that your character has no idea what they're actually doing.

Also if gods had a monopoly on divine magic (thus in some way justifying your hatred for them) the Creed of the Stone wouldn't exist. They've explicitly been stated as a group of clerics who gain their divine magic from a source other than gods, namely the Elemental Plane of Earth (or just the elementals living there). Yeah, the Creed of Stone point stands out in this regard.

[hamishspence]

They've explicitly been stated as a group of clerics who gain their divine magic from a source other than gods, namely the Elemental Plane of Earth (or just the elementals living there).
Definitely from the elementals - at least, the quasi-deific ones:



This is how I have always understood it (and keep in mind this is a basic D&D answer, and not a statement about OOTS per se):

On the most basic level, the substance of D&D multiverse is able to be shaped by personal belief. This is one of the main tenets of the Planescape setting, where planar locations shift around based on the moral leanings of the population. Most mortals don't have enough belief to really accomplish anything on their own, though, but the gods do. So mortals become clerics of a god, and their devotion to the god allows the god to funnel that belief-power back to them in the form of concrete magical effects. The gods aren't really the source of the power as much as they are the catalyst to convert it into something useful. They can tinker with the power in the process, by dictating spells or withholding power or what have you.

Non-theistic clerics get their spells from a wide distributed network of beings with similar philosophies who can act as catalysts for the cleric—but because these are not centralized, none of them can exercise "veto power" over the cleric, nor is the cleric required to acknowledge their dominance (or even their existence). In Gontor's case, it may be that a powerful Earth Elemental is granting him his spells, but it could be a different one each day, or even some spells from one and some from another. If any of those elementals decide they don't like what he's doing with his magic, he just gets his spells from someone else that day. He may even be entirely oblivious to which elemental provides his spells at any point, and therefore is under no obligation to any of them. Unfortunately, that also means that no single elemental is going to be invested enough in Gontor to care what happens to him.

Analogy time! Regular clerics have an employer-employee relationship, where the employer (god) consumes the work (prayer) that the employee (cleric) generates and in return provides them with compensation (spells), where that compensation is actually generated by the work being done by the entire company (church). A non-theistic cleric is more like a freelance writer; they perform the work (believe in a philosophy) that they feel is right for them, and then sell that work to whatever client (quasi-deific elemental beings) is willing to pay (provide spells) for it. The freelancer has more flexibility than the employee to do as they wish, but they also do not have many benefits of steady employment.

[deuterio12]

Definitely from the elementals - at least, the quasi-deific ones:

Earth elemental gods are still gods. Even evil rats can be gods after all, and of paladins no less.

Also seems like Hel is literally brain-dead {scrubbed} because the reason she got herself in this mess in the first place was because she thought clerics drained power, but now the Giant's own word is that clerics produce power after all. It's indeed a divine miracle Hel can utter any two words together when her godly brain can't even remember where her power even comes from (heck, she needs her own minions to remind her how her own diseases work). No wonder the strongest monsters she can pull out are the puny failcrawlers.

[hamishspence]

The earth elementals that grant them clerical spells are a step down from gods, but a step up from regular elementals.

Quasi-deific - not quite gods, but very close to it.

[deuterio12]

The earth elementals that grant them clerical spells are a step down from gods, but a step up from regular elementals.

Quasi-deific - not quite gods, but very close to it.

There's plenty of god tiers, but quasi-deities can't grant spells in D&D (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm). If you can grant divine spells, you are a god. It's pretty much the definition.

[Schroeswald]

There's plenty of god tiers, but quasi-deities can't grant spells in D&D (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm). If you can grant divine spells, you are a god. It's pretty much the definition.

But they didn’t design this system, they aren’t part of a pantheon, they don’t have a quiddity, the quasi-divine beings as a whole/elemental plane of stone can grant spells here, and that’s what matters.

[hamishspence]

If you can grant divine spells, you are a god. It's pretty much the definition.



Or, you are a cosmic force, such as "nature" (druids) "justice" (paladins) and so forth.

Presumably, these beings are proxies for those cosmic forces - incapable of granting spells on their own, but capable when acting together.

[deuterio12]

Or, you are a cosmic force, such as "nature" (druids) "justice" (paladins) and so forth.

Presumably, these beings are proxies for those cosmic forces - incapable of granting spells on their own, but capable when acting together.

On the contrary, in your own post earlier you point out all it takes is one earth elemental god to grant the spells to a cleric. There's absolutely nothing mentioned about they needing to work together to pull it off and it's explicitly said that even if 99.99999% of Earth Elementals gods may hate your guts, you still get the spells if you get in the good side of a single earth elemental god.

[hamishspence]

It seems crystal clear from The Giant's post that "quasi-deific beings" are not actual gods - that the only way they can do what they do, is by being a network.

[Squire Doodad]

It feels like there should be a distinction made between "quasi-deific entities in OotSverse" and "quasi-deific entities in DnD". One is a bit more broadly defined so as to permit lots of case by case scenarios, the other has remarkably specific rules as determined by the author of the work.

[Dion]

You're confusing clerics with wizards.

The fact is, nobody knows how custom cleric spells work in The Giant’s game world. There are no RAW for them.

To expand on this: we saw Durkon researching a new spell, of his own invention, called mass death ward. After his research was successful, he was able to cast the spell.

I can think of two possible mechanics for what it means to “know” a newly-researched cleric spell (people smarter than me can probably think of others):

1) After research, Thor knew the spell. Thor grants the *ability* to cast any spell *Thor knows* to his clerics. Every cleric of Thor can ask Thor for the ability to cast the new spell.

2) After the research, Durkon knew the spell. Thor grants the *power* to cast any spell *his cleric knows* to his clerics. Only clerics who learn the new spell can ask their god for the power to cast the new spell.

I’m personally more inclined toward the later view. In my head canon, clerics still need to learn spells, just like wizards. Spells are much much easier for clerics to learn, and they don’t need spellbooks, and every spell in the SRD is open source, so any cleric can learn them.

But with my head cannon, there’s no reason to suppose that RubyRock can automatically cast mass death ward now. And there’s no reason to suppose that every cleric of Hel can automatically cast “quicken vampire”, either.

It might be trivially easy to teach and learn those spells, but in my mind you still need to learn them before you can ask your god for the power to cast them.

I apologize if there are actual rules for this someplace, or if we’ve gone over this thousands of times already. I’ve just spent some time thinking about how I’d probably run this if I was DM, and I thought I’d share my ideas.

[Squire Doodad]

I apologize if there are actual rules for this someplace, or if we’ve gone over this thousands of times already. I’ve just spent some time thinking about how I’d probably run this if I was DM, and I thought I’d share my ideas.

Honestly, that whole thing sounded pretty good! My own headcanon is something a bit different, but there's some parts I really felt made sense.

[brian 333]

Spell research for original or unique spells is the same for wizards or clerics.

The difference is that the cleric has access to the standard spell list and to any domain or deity-specific spells without having to research them.

Example: Durkon and Durkula had to research Mass Death Ward and Quickened Vampirization respectively.

[Agemegos]

Yeah: disease vectors via air travel are one of those "unintended consequences" of modern life. And we got no paladins to lay on hands, so we rely on doctors and scientists ... but now that I thnk of it, ships that sail the seas also provide diseases a vehicle for spreading. Bubonic plague comes to mind, and the flue pandemic of 1919 ish ....

Not to mention the series of epidemics (smallpox, measles, chickenpox, an unidentified haemorrhagic fever…) between 1492 and 1610 that reduced the population of the Americas by about 92–93%.