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alchemyprime
2007-10-11, 01:31 PM
If you have ever seen the Ultimate D&D threads on the Wizards Boards, you know what I'm talking about.

They are brilliant rethinkings of the d20 system classes.
But I feel a little neglected. My favorite clases have not been redone.

I like Incarnum.
I like Binding.
I like the concept of Truenames.
I like the Oriental Classes (Shaman, Shugenja, Wu Jen, Samurai, Sohei, Ninja)

I also liked the idea from WotC of 20 level progessions for races.

Would any one like to help me in my endevours to create Ultimate Incarnum, Ultimate Obscurity, Ultimate Oriental and Ultimate Races? Anyone at all? Please?

GryffonDurime
2007-10-11, 02:09 PM
I actually talked to the creator of those classes briefly--I was going to try my hand at making the Ultimate Wu Jen as an arcane philosopher. Nothing ever came of it, but the class would be particularly easy to transform into Ultimate: it already has its own five branches!

GimliFett
2007-10-11, 02:25 PM
I'd love to help, especially with Binders and Wu Jen (my two favorite classes; I've recently offered some addendums to WuJen on these boards, but didn't get much response), but I've no access to Wizards boards currently, and little opportunity in the evenings to check. Please enlighten me somewhat to it's purpose and background, and I'll do my best to assist?

Maerok
2007-10-11, 04:53 PM
If you have ever seen the Ultimate D&D threads on the Wizards Boards, you know what I'm talking about.

They are brilliant rethinkings of the d20 system classes.
But I feel a little neglected. My favorite clases have not been redone.

I like Incarnum.
I like Binding.
I like the concept of Truenames.
I like the Oriental Classes (Shaman, Shugenja, Wu Jen, Samurai, Sohei, Ninja)

I also liked the idea from WotC of 20 level progessions for races.

Would any one like to help me in my endevours to create Ultimate Incarnum, Ultimate Obscurity, Ultimate Oriental and Ultimate Races? Anyone at all? Please?

Ultimate Obscurity? See the "Is V male/female?" posts on the OotS forum section. :smallbiggrin:

ZebulonCrispi
2007-10-11, 07:20 PM
How about some context for those of us who are NOT familiar with these threads?

Artemician
2007-10-11, 08:13 PM
"Ultimate D&D" was an attempt on the Wizards boards to rebuild every single class and balance them against each other. These rebuilt classes were dentified by having "Ultimate" in front (hence the name).

I do not have a link with me at the moment, maybe someone could scrounge it up.

GryffonDurime
2007-10-11, 08:29 PM
Ask, and ye shall receive. (http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/index.php?title=Ultimate_Classes)

Daracaex
2007-10-11, 09:42 PM
I can help if you want, but I would only be an idea-contributor. I don't have much of a mind for balance.

alchemyprime
2007-10-12, 12:21 AM
I'm an idea guy too, but that's okay. We need idea men to do this!

appending_doom
2007-10-12, 04:55 AM
I'm not entirely certain my concept of balance is valid, but I'd love to contribute/help. (Esp with truenames)

EDIT: I think a good first step would be to determine what unique role you'd like each class to serve, or what unique abilities they would have. I'm dubious about the ninja and samurai's ability to be distinct from the various champions, rogues, etc. But if you can say just one central ability or role that a class embodies that is unique, you have a good case for entering it into the 'Ultimate' corpus.

alchemyprime
2007-10-12, 11:47 AM
The bit I see about a samurai is this:
They are not about an order like a knight is, but they are innately lawful. But ronin are chaotic. Not to mention the various neutral samurai out there.
So, I say the samurai has nine paths:
Two LE paths
A True N Path
A NG Path
Two LG Paths
Two LN Paths
A CN Path

The paths will act like cleric alignments.

Each path will focus on different things. Each one with it's own samurai abilities. I want to go more for the fantasy samurai than the historically acurate samurai. I like samurai who can wreath their blades in flame, shout to unnerve their enemies, heal from wounds quickly.
I'm looking to make not just the sort of samurai from anime, but also the sort of hero Kensei and Hiro are. (Well, no time control, that's pretty strong. But you get the idea.)

As for the ninja...

I like the idea of a monk/rogue hybrid, but I'm looking more for a... fantasy ninja.
A six path ninja:
Path of Fire (Honin)
Path of Water (Suinin)
Path of Lightning (?)
Path of Wind (KAzenin, I think...)
Path of Earth (Tsuchinin?)
Path of Balance

All ninjas will also get Shadow Chi abilities and Void CHi abilities (think Ultimate Fighter with Art of Battle/Warcraft abilities) and also a pool of CHi points to spend. I liked how the one from CA had the +2 on WIll saves when he had Chi left. I say instead we go with more of an Ultimate Psion's APex/Ambient type of thing. Seems a little tough, but I like the idea myself.

Wu Jen will be easiest. Binder and Truenamer will be okay too. Little worried abotu how ultimate sohei (which I say we call Ultimate Kensei) will turn out. Especially since a dyslexic is running this whole operation!

But we can do it! I've already finished eight ultimate races (I plan on making about 30 of them into Ultimates. Don't know if I should do Planetouched or not.)

alchemyprime
2007-10-12, 03:41 PM
Done Races:
Human
Elf
Dark Elf
Dromite
Elan
Dwarf (I did Dwarf first)
Cactacae (from Dragon #352)
Changeling (Eberron)
Gnome
Half-Elf
Half-Orc (A total barbarian race, sorry)

alchemyprime
2007-10-12, 10:06 PM
Did interest whane already?

appending_doom
2007-10-13, 06:48 AM
As for the ninja...

I like the idea of a monk/rogue hybrid, but I'm looking more for a... fantasy ninja.
A six path ninja:
Path of Fire (Honin)
Path of Water (Suinin)
Path of Lightning (?)
Path of Wind (KAzenin, I think...)
Path of Earth (Tsuchinin?)
Path of Balance

All ninjas will also get Shadow Chi abilities and Void CHi abilities (think Ultimate Fighter with Art of Battle/Warcraft abilities) and also a pool of CHi points to spend. I liked how the one from CA had the +2 on WIll saves when he had Chi left. I say instead we go with more of an Ultimate Psion's APex/Ambient type of thing. Seems a little tough, but I like the idea myself.

Wu Jen will be easiest. Binder and Truenamer will be okay too. Little worried abotu how ultimate sohei (which I say we call Ultimate Kensei) will turn out. Especially since a dyslexic is running this whole operation!

But we can do it! I've already finished eight ultimate races (I plan on making about 30 of them into Ultimates. Don't know if I should do Planetouched or not.)

I wonder if 5 ninja branches might make more sense; wind and lightning are often tied together (and in Japanese classical elements, wind is connected to the mind == nervous system == electricity). The question is (both for ninja and samurai) what each branch is meant to be. What makes a wind ninja different from a fire ninja? How should it matter mechanically if your samurai is LN or NN?

Also, I'm curious what you're planning to do with the truenamer. I have minimal experience with so-called truenamer fixes, but I wonder if the whole thing could have a less steep learning curve if it were based on a level check rather than a skill. (off-hand, 1d20+level+Int; DC 13+CR?) Or, if you had a different idea of how truenaming works?

SilverClawShift
2007-10-13, 10:32 AM
I'd love to see an Ultimate Truenamer and Ultimate Binder. But they'd both need very solid concepts to work right, and frankly, an Ultimate Binder would be a LOT of effort, because the Binder is allready a pretty solid class.

alchemyprime
2007-10-13, 03:47 PM
Nah, binder isn't much of a stretch, we just make a little list of abilities to replace his bonus feats.

The hard one will be Truenamer. Perhaps give him specially "quick word" abilities. Like an instant heal with a lower DC.

Ninja abilities... Okay...
Wind: Much more movement based than the others.
Fire: More offensive
Earth: More defensive
Water: More buffs and defence boosters
Balance... something completely different.

Samurai: I think the different schools with different alignments allow for more "Fluff" than "Crunch", but I like Fluff. It's like cotton candy.

So, the LG schools are about Honor and Valor, the LN schools about enforcing laws for one, following for the other, the LE schools you have one that's all about being "Dishonorably Honorable" and the other Dishonorable without being able to be persecuted. The CN school is to be the Ronin, the TN school to be distant, and the NG path would be all about nonlethal damage.

I like the level based bit, and we reduce the DCs from the original by 5. The learning curve is TOO steep.
I also say we give bonus utterances for a high INT mod at first level.

Any other ideas.

Oh, and I'm up to Shifters in Ultimate Races. I'll post my finished work before we idea crunch.

Daracaex
2007-10-14, 02:45 AM
For the truenamer, you might want to look to the Inheritance books, Eragon and Eldest, for inspiration.

And I don't think Ronin could really be considered chaotic. My knowledge of the Japanese feudal system might be lacking here, but I believe that Ronin were simple Samurai without a master, as in their master died and now there's no higher-up. I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure they were either simply shifted to another Daimyo (title of their masters) or simply lost their status as samurai. Depending on how you want to take that, there might not be such a thing as a chaotic samurai, though I'd say they could go down to neutral instead of being limited to lawful.

GryffonDurime
2007-10-14, 09:55 AM
For the truenamer, you might want to look to the Inheritance books, Eragon and Eldest, for inspiration.


Or you can go straight to the books Paolini practically plagerized for "his" system of magic and check out LeGuin's Earthsea series.

On the whole, though, I'm hesitant to say Ninjas should be divided by elements...almost everything else is already, and really, Ninjas only got the elemental schtick thanks to anime.

alchemyprime
2007-10-14, 10:29 AM
Fan. Ta. Sy. Nin. Ja.

Not Historical. Historical ninja already has an Ultimate class: Rogue with the assassin and spy paths. I beleive four steps of assassin give you a blowgun or (if your DM allows it) shuriken as an extra proficiency. It's already there.

Fantasy ninjas are seen as these odd Chi users, so to speak. While the monk focuses it thorugh his body by training to make his body stronger, and the samurai uses it to make him a better warrior, the ninja uses it to do the crazy "dissappear into shadows, slip through small cracks, create small bursts of fire" type of stuff.

As for the samurai... I know the words are synonymous in the real world, but what if we split Ronin and Rorouni? Ronin = CN, Rorouni = TN. So, the Rorouni could be any neutral, allowing for us to make NG samurai like Kenshin Himura, or TN samurai like Takato Kensei (British Samurai!), while also allowing for a Lawful samurai of no true school
(albeit LN, so I say the Rorouni path should be like the Church of Gond in the FR: Anyone can join. That way, anyone has atleas two paths [I'm looking at you, CE]).

Then again... maybe an element based ninja is a bad idea...
What about... Animal based ninja?
Fox Ninja: Master of Illusions
Falcon Ninja: Essentialy the old Air ninja idea...
Snake ninja: Master of poisons?

Well... that's three... any other animal ninja paths? Or other ninja themes?

Oh, and Samurai school names would be good too.

GnomeNinja
2007-10-14, 10:51 AM
You mentioned Incarnum at the beginning, but you have not discussed it. Not that I think Incarnum fits with the Ultimate stuff; it doesn't. As much as I love incarnum, it really does not work with Ultimate.

alchemyprime
2007-10-14, 10:55 AM
We just haven't tried hard enough!

Look, incarnum is a very solid magic system. It is what invocations tried to be. Why can't it fit?

Okay... totemist is sort of out...

But, incarnate and soulborn can very easily fit!
Incarnate already has four paths, based on alignment. If we also added in optional abilities to replace most of the stable ones, we could make Ultimate... (Enter New Incarnate Name Here) and Ultimate Soulborn. We can do it!

But to do them all at once is foolish. Oriental is easier. But we can take stuff all here.

Vadin
2007-10-14, 11:52 AM
Now, why couldn't you have an Ultimate Totemist?

The Totemist could be split up into different sorts of beasts for their class abilities. For example, you could have a Dragon path, an Aberration path, an Animal path, and a Magical Beast path. Dragon path might grant wings and a breath weapon, Animal might give rage, and so on and so forth.

As for the Ninja thing, could he have two different sets of advancing abilities so that the Ninja could be an Air Snake Ninja, or a Firefox (:smalltongue: ) Ninja?

alchemyprime
2007-10-14, 01:11 PM
And this is why I'm not doing this alone.

Ultimate Totemist seems like just the thing for us to do!
And now... combine element and animal... an elemental affinity and an animal style... together!

I love it!
I love you Vadin. But don't tell my girlfriend. She'd kill me.

Okay... so then... which class do we work on first?

SilverClawShift
2007-10-14, 02:25 PM
Let's see. Start with the raw concept behind the truenamer. "I can re-write the code of reality manually by re-speaking it". What they say goes, one way or another. Either by manipulating things allready in existance, or re-writing the possible paths the future can take.

More importantly, Truenamers find themselves as a blend of outer-plane 'core of reality' and magical 'altering reality' type of abilities. Their power can't really be classified into arcane or divine, or even other. There's so many possible facets of TrueSpeak to take into consideration...

So we'll start from there. We'll figure out who a Truenamer is, and then what they do.

Now, personally? I'd like to see more focus on the fact that speaking is what they do. I vote we mechanically leave them the same, but buff up their skill list to include the party-face skills. Who do you want talking for you? You want the person who can re-write reality by opening their mouth talking for you, that's who.
On the same page, I think we should take away Use Magic Device, give them more "magic" in their class features than in their skills. Maybe bump it up to 6 skill points? But they're an INT based class, so they should be okay with the default 4. Even assuming an INT of only 14, they can pump Truespeak, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, A knowledge skill, and start snagging other languages. I like that. Just right there I like the direction better, they talk more.

So now what? Just in terms of strength, Truenaming is simply too weak to use effectively, even in a scaled down campaign. You find yourself just rolling failures trying to manipulate a 1/2 challenge rating goblin. Truenaming has too much emphasis on speaking someones specific truename, and not enough on manipulating the cold hard fundamentals of reality in a localized area. Too much "<The Unique Truename of a piddly goblin> suffers on his attack rolls" when, personally, I feel it should be more "The goblin in front of me falls to the ground struggling to breath".
Only, you know, said in truespeak :smallbiggrin:

But the power level isn't the only thing to take into consideration, there's also the specific style and patterns of the "Ultimate" classes (which are very cool). To that end, we can start dividing up the fluff into the proper 'path/list/walk' style of the ultimate classes.

Allright, enough rambling freethought. Here's how I envision the ultimate truenamer working (though I by no means am suggesting this is perfect, or complete).

***************************************

Ultimate Parlance

Hit Die: D6
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level (x4 at 1st level)
Skill Points: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perform (oratory), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Speak Language, Truespeak.

Base Attack Bonus: 3/4

Fort Save: Weak
Ref Save: Weak
Will Save: Strong

Proficiencies: Simple Weapons, Light Armor

01: Lexicon of Reality
02: Path of Dialect
03: Lexicon of Reality
04: Path of Dialect
05: Lexicon of Reality, Accent
06: Path of Dialect
07: Lexicon of Reality, Accent
08: Path of Dialect
09: Lexicon of Reality, Accent
10: Path of Dialect
11: Lexicon of Reality
12: Path of Dialect, Accent
13: Lexicon of Reality
14: Path of Dialect, Accent
15: Lexicon of Reality
16: Path of Dialect, Accent
17: Lexicon of Reality
18: Path of Dialect
19: Lexicon of Reality, Accent
20: Path of Dialect

***************************************

Truespeech
Truespeech is the raw ability to use the Truespeaking skill itself, to manipulate reality.

Lexicon of Reality
The Lexicon of Reality is an established set of abilities available to ALL truenamers who learn and study. Functionally similar to the binders ability granted by vestiges, the Lexicon of Reality provides simple, but indefinately repeatable chances to use truespeaking to your groups advantage.
At each indicated level, an Ultimate Truenamer can select from the list of the Lexicon of Reality abilities.
Mechnically the abilities should provide some small but useful effect which can be used once every 5 rounds, reliant on the Truespeech skill itself. The higher the truespeech check, the more potent the use of the ability before the effect fades. This means the truenamer ALWAYS has something useful, even if smaller than their more potent "Path of Dialect".

Path of Dialect
Just as mundane communication has many facets, in the form of various languages and regional differences, so too does truespeak. While the words themselves -those pure undilluted syllables which echo throughout all of reality- never change or deviate, they way they are used can. As a truenamer learns more and more words of truespeech, other words become more and more difficult to say, limiting what can be accomplished even by the most powerful of truenamers.
At first level, an Ultimate Truenamer selects a dialect. This represents the area of truenaming they focus on, and grow comfortable with saying aloud. Once a truenamer seelcts and begins learning their chosen dialect of truespeech, it can never be unlearned or altered. They must follow their chosen path through all 11 steps to its completion.
Words of Creation: The path of the words of creation are those syllables and phrases spoken during the beginning of time, echoing throughout all that is and will ever be. A truenamer who knows more and more of the words of creation will liken their abilities onto those of the gods and angels themselves. Fortification, healing, enhancing... the Words of Creation can boost all that exists.
Those who speak the words of creation are not necessarily virtuous characters. Anyone, even the evil, can recognize the usefullness of strengthening their own forces. The most pure and exalted forms of the words of creatino are only available to good character, btu the path itself can be walked by anyone.
(this is the healer path. Truenamers who focus on the words of creation can serve their group by keeping them alive and in good condition, gear included. Not only restroing hitpoints mind you, keeping a group from being injured is as valuable as helping them recover once they do)
Dark Speech: Every light casts a shadow. Dark speech is the shadow of truespeaking. These words came second, after the universe was established. Once there existed something to destroy, the words of Dark Speech arose to rend it assunder. Dark Speech is the foundation of rot and destruction, the words of unmaking which exist only to undo what Truespeaking has done.
It is not necessarily the path of the evil character, though evil characters are more likely to be fascinated with the destruction these words can bring. Even good characters can ealize that some things must be destroyed for the good of all, but the most vile and unwholesome dark speech can only be used by evil characters.
(Mechanically? Blaster, sort of. Definately focused on tearing down rather than rebuilding. Mind you, it shouldn't be so simple that inflicitng damage is all they can do. Dark Speech could also dominate or warp.)
Words of Revision: If the words of creation and destruction had been all there was, the universe would be an unchanging place. While individual fragments of it could be created or destroyed in an ever-ongoing dance of balance, the rules would prohibit true change.
The Words of Revision exist to bring the detail to the universe... the great differences between lifeforms and lands that make it worth observing. They are the words that breath magic into all things, the structure of change.
(Mechanically, a Revision truenamer would be a like a utility caster or rogue-type of some sort. While not stealth and guile, the words of Revision are more dedicated to tipping the environment into your favor).

Accent
When a person grows up speaking a language, and then learns another, their mother tongue almost invariably comes through in all of their communications. A dwarf who learns to speak elven will still 'talk like a dwarf', even if they get the overall communication correct. A human who learns to speak halfling will still have traces of 'common' in their pacing and diction.
The same principle applies, in part, to truenaming. While a truenamer selects a pure path to follow to completion, taking all 11 steps in it during their career, they can learn the beginnings of other paths. At each level indicated, the Truenamer gains the ability to 'accent' their truespeech with that of another dialect. Which path they choose as their accent is completely up to them, and they may choose anew at each indicated level.
For example, a truenamer who learns the Words of Creation pathway can still learn 7 steps in Dark Speech. Or they can learn 5 steps in Words of Revision and 2 steps in Dark speech. Or any combination thereof.


*********
Note: I thought the class needed a capstone ability at level 20, but another solution presents itself. Make the 11th step on any path very very attractive, and worth not giving up. Any step above 7 should be very valuable too. That goes without saying, but the 8th-11th steps in a path should be noteably stronger than the ones below them, making path selection a very real choice.
I also think the class could use another thing or two at earlier levels, to make the beginning of the class more realistically surviveable and fun.
*********

Er, anyway, I hope I wasn't being presumptuous writing all this out, but I was bored and had a few ideas about it.

alchemyprime
2007-10-14, 03:46 PM
Well... Ultimate PArlance has been started. I'll focus on it more once I finish the work I should be doing.

Daracaex
2007-10-14, 04:29 PM
We do need some mechanic to indicate knowing a being's truename. It's the difference between, "His arm breaks" and "He suddenly wants his arm to break." Knowing someones truename means complete and total dominance over that person, instead of using regular truespeak to influence the events around the person. A truename should be able to carry the power to change, say, Drizz't into being a lawful and happy-go-lucky optimistic pacifist. Truenames would obviously be extremely rare to get, but they shouldn't be removed completely.

I like the different paths you have set up for Path of Dialect, but maybe there should be a few more paths? Why don't you look at the eight main magic schools and assign maybe two schools to each dialect? That leaves us with four dialects, then we can add a fifth one that's general or unique in some way. Maybe we could have a dialect that focuses on individual truenames, though it might be overpowering.

Also, in looking to other sources for inspiration, I remembered the Shannara series by Terry Brooks. Why not have an ability somewhere that gives you the option of truesong (like the Wishsong in the books) instead of simply saying the words. Maybe as an intended tie-in with the bard?

Actually, that gives me another idea. What about making this class have a class ability that requires you to pick another class at the beginning of the class progression and you will receive some of the abilities, BAB/save progressions and class skills of the class, similar to the Ultimate Adventurer. The difference being that you receive a lot less levels in the tie-in class, but eventually get all the abilities in the truenaming part. The reason for doing this would be to indicate that truenamers can be anyone with any fighting style. Maybe also include a version where the character is totally dedicated to truenaming? This might not be a viable idea since there is multiclassing and the Ultimate Adventurer, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

SilverClawShift
2007-10-14, 05:15 PM
Oh, I fully agree there should be more paths. Those were the three main ones that spring to mind, but the idea of alternate paths and sub paths is fine. That's why I included the disclaimer about it not being done. I think there should be 5 paths minimum, and of course, you could always add more just as new spells and domains get added.

Something more 'nature' oriented would make a good path. There's also the fact that you could make paths with fewer than 11 steps, specifically intended to be used as accents. I'm thinking paths dedicated to the elements. You could focus on Words of Creation for your main path, and fire for your Accents, and make a sort of "Holy Fire" truenamer.

I also agree that knowing someones truename should be a much bigger deal than the original truenamer class makes it out to be. I'm not sure you should just gain blanket control over them, but you should be able to smack them around much easier if you know their personal truename.
It would be a good ability for the 11th level step, probably in the Revision path.

Like I said, I didn't mean for this to be considered 'done', or even 'unchanging'. It's just something I threw out to help get things flowing.

appending_doom
2007-10-14, 05:42 PM
Silver Tongue - The words of reality are not only used to shape physical reality. Those who study the Lexicon of the Silver Tongue learn how to shape others' perceptions. With a Silver Tongue, you may lure or convince with more skill than the most skilled liars.

That might be the appropriate use for creatures' personal truenames.

But with regard to paths: we've got creation, destruction, alteration, silver tongue; you might want a summoning path (capturing and binding other creatures), as well.

Daracaex
2007-10-14, 07:05 PM
Dialect paths to be used specifically for Accents? That works perfect then!

Accent- Truesong
Many truespeekers simply power their way through the language of power. Masters of the Truesong elevate their truespeeking to an art form. Though it takes more skill and effort to become adapt at the Truesong, this is the way the words were first meant to be spoken, flowing together, writing the laws of the universe in a single epic poem. Though it is difficult to sing the Truesong, the singers words become even more powerful, weaving the alterations seamlessly into the existing words that define the universe.

Wow, it's going to be difficult to manage all these ultimate class ideas in one thread. Maybe we should split the classes into their own threads once they become developed enough. Alchemyprime seems to be heading this project, so would you mind making another thread for the Ultimate Parlance?

alchemyprime
2007-10-17, 03:34 PM
Ultimate Parlance is in the Homebrew design board now.