Active Tank w/ Great Damage?

[BlackSeraphX]

I love the active pseudo-taunt that Ancestral Guardian gets and have been trying to decide on a build to go with. I know Bear Totem is an easy choice, but I'm hoping to lean more into being supportive and protective while also doing above average damage, I don't expect the kind of damage a Sorcadin or others can put out.


TLDR: How would you build a Tanky Barbarian who takes an active role in protecting the party?



- Standard point buy, nearly all published content allowed*

- Campaign is expected to go from 1-15.

- Variant Human, Winged Tiefling, and Aarakocra not allowed.

- Free Starting Feat, Lucky is forbidden.

- I'd like a build that has zero reliance on getting any loot besides MAYBE a magic weapon (DM tends to give us a magic weapon upgrade to whatever we already use)


What I have so far but I'm not stuck on this



Half-Orc (Human Flavored, stand-in for Norse/Giant touched)

Barbarian (AG) 5/9, Remaining levels in Rogue (Swashbuckler/Mastermind appeal to me for the mini mobile or the BA ranged help action)

In Medium Armor, with either Shield+Rapier or 2 Shortswords.

Starting:
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 16 or 14
INT 8
WIS 12 or 14
CHA 8


Possible feats:
Sentinel
Shield Master (DM ignores Crawford's stance, allowing the shove to occur anytime before, during or after Attack Action as long it's declared)
Mobile
Mage Slayer
Ritual Caster (For Familiar to support the party even more with the ranged BA Help from Mastermind)
----

If I drop the Rogue aspect, it's an easier choice, PAM (Halberd), GWM and Champion or Battle Master for 3-4 levels only.

Flavorwise: Savage, Ferocious while raging, calm and measured outside of it. Mentor (for a newer player, which got me thinking of playing an active role in protecting the player while trying her Monk out)

[LudicSavant]

Ancestral 16 / Rogue 1 / BM 3 has pretty good damage potential. Note the reaction from Barb 14 is essentially an 8d6 damage swing that can't miss.

Another way to do good damage is via teamwork. By making yourself a better shover and grappler, you can take advantage of all the party's "enters or begins/ends turn in the area" effects to rack up multiple activations, as well as handing out Advantage to melee characters like candy.

Anyways, this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23917496&postcount=103) racks up pretty respectable numbers.

[BlackSeraphX]

That looks fun, but I'm a bit worried about going heavy grapple as my DM tends to rarely stick to large or smaller enemies and my party is not so great at tactical thinking, so the chances of getting Enlarge or the like is pretty slim. I actually have thought of the fact that the AG "taunt" doesn't require melee and javelins are certainly great for that. It might be a bit too hard to overlook the tentacle in the room :smallbiggrin:

Bookmarked your thread though. Thanks.

[LudicSavant]

That looks fun, but I'm a bit worried about going heavy grapple as my DM tends to rarely stick to large or smaller enemies and my party is not so great at tactical thinking, so the chances of getting Enlarge or the like is pretty slim. That's fine. It's just one of numerous tools in that build's belt, rather than something it actually relies on getting all the time. I generally build for versatile kits.


I actually have thought of the fact that the AG "taunt" doesn't require melee and javelins are certainly great for that. It might be a bit too hard to overlook the tentacle in the room :smallbiggrin:

Bookmarked your thread though. Thanks.

:smallsmile:

Anyways, some more thoughts on the AG:


Half-Orc (Human Flavored, stand-in for Norse/Giant touched)

Barbarian (AG) 5/9, Remaining levels in Rogue (Swashbuckler/Mastermind appeal to me for the mini mobile or the BA ranged help action)

In Medium Armor, with either Shield+Rapier or 2 Shortswords.

Starting:
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 16 or 14
INT 8
WIS 12 or 14
CHA 8


Possible feats:
Sentinel
Shield Master (DM ignores Crawford's stance, allowing the shove to occur anytime before, during or after Attack Action as long it's declared)
Mobile
Mage Slayer
Ritual Caster (For Familiar to support the party even more with the ranged BA Help from Mastermind)
----

If I drop the Rogue aspect, it's an easier choice, PAM (Halberd), GWM and Champion or Battle Master for 3-4 levels only.

Flavorwise: Savage, Ferocious while raging, calm and measured outside of it. Mentor (for a newer player, which got me thinking of playing an active role in protecting the player while trying her Monk out)

A few thoughts:

- You want to max Strength. Accuracy is important. Doubly so since marking with your ancestors requires you to hit. Possible exception if you expect you'll be able to get giant's belts or something.

- Sentinel isn't quite as good for Ancestral as it might be for other Barbarians. You already have excellent reactions and render your allies into bad targets (Disadvantage to be hit, Resistance, damage reduction, and retribution). A marked enemy is already going to want to attack you instead of someone else, doubly so if you aren't wearing a shield.

- Be wary of investing too much in things that take up reactions and bonus actions in general. Spirit Shield / Vengeful Ancestors is a genuinely excellent reaction . And Rage will eat your bonus action in the first round of a combat (and if you actually have great damage output in your party, combats shouldn't last very long). You'll also be getting good bonus actions and reactions from Rogue if you go that route. And possibly Battle Master too.

- You don't have a lot of ASIs, especially if you multiclass. For example, if you go Half Orc Champion 3/GWM/PAM, then you're only going to get those feats + max strength by level 19.

- As a half-orc, you can start with 17 Strength and bump it up to 18 with a half-feat, like Orcish Fury.

One of the neat things about Orcish Fury is that you decide to use it after hitting, so you can critfish with it just like you would with a Divine Smite.

- You basically transform allies into tanks with respect to the attacks of a foe marked by your ancestors. Disadvantage to be hit, Resistance, damage reduction, and damage retribution means that your allies are even worse targets than a Bear-barian unless they just totally dumped their AC or something.

Since you're not a terrible target compared to your allies, don't underestimate the value of improving your personal defenses.

[BlackSeraphX]

Good points.

We are getting a free feat at level one, so it's not quite as hard to go feat heavy but you're right that 20 STR as soon as possible is important. As it stands in my mind, I'd hit 20 STR at level 9 (5 Barb, 4 Rogue) a level behind a typical single class.

How do you feel about Spirit Shield's overall efficacy? I feel it scales very poorly.

2d6 (~7 damage, 3d6 at 10) feels like a mostly poor use of my reaction, especially if I have more than a few Rogue levels with far more attractive incentive to get hits on foes for Sneak Attack outside of my turn via Opportunity Attacks or possibly Riposte from Battle Master.

[LudicSavant]

Good points.

We are getting a free feat at level one, so it's not quite as hard to go feat heavy but you're right that 20 STR as soon as possible is important. As it stands in my mind, I'd hit 20 STR at level 9 (5 Barb, 4 Rogue) a level behind a typical single class.

How do you feel about Spirit Shield's overall efficacy? I feel it scales very poorly.

2d6 (~7 damage, 3d6 at 10) feels like a mostly poor use of my reaction, especially if I have more than a few Rogue levels with far more attractive incentive to get hits on foes for Sneak Attack outside of my turn via Opportunity Attacks or possibly Riposte from Battle Master.

It's not bad.

1) The fact that it automatically succeeds means that it's more significant than it might seem if you're disregarding accuracy.

2) Reckless Attacks doesn't apply to off-turn attacks. Missing is a very real factor that you should not be overlooking.

3) Remember that there's a good chance you actually won't be a worse target than your allies for an Ancestor-marked target, so enemies won't be overly tempted to provoke opportunity attacks. And you're not going to have Riposte from Battle Master by level 6 or 10 in the builds you suggested.

4) Multi-classing will cost you other things as well, like number of rages per day, rage damage bonus, Feral Instinct, etc.

[BlackSeraphX]

1) The fact that it automatically succeeds means that it's more significant than it might seem if you're disregarding accuracy.

2) Reckless Attacks doesn't apply to off-turn attacks. Missing is a very real factor that you should not be overlooking.

3) Remember that there's a good chance you actually won't be a worse target than your allies for an Ancestor-marked target, so enemies won't be overly tempted to provoke opportunity attacks. And you're not going to have Riposte from Battle Master by level 6 or 10 in the builds you suggested.

4) Multi-classing will cost you other things as well, like number of rages per day, rage damage bonus, Feral Instinct, etc.

I didn't even think about 2.

And 1 is actually even better now that I think of it. It's 2d6 against an already reduced number due to Ancestral Protectors :biggrin: