Skill Checks for Attacks?

[Nagog]

So I used to play Pathfinder very frequently until I found the simplicity and customization of 5e much more my style, however I recently came across some old notes about a Pathfinder class that I really wanted to play, but never did because I felt it was too overpowered (For those interested, it's the Warlord class published by Path of War). It had a playstyle similar to the Battlemaster Fighter, however it had a much wider variety of maneuvers and their uses were regained by performing Gambits (things like feint, grappling, etc). However, the thing I felt really unbalanced it was being able to use different ability checks as an attack roll when enacting these maneuvers. For those who know Pathfinder, having a +15 to a skill at level 10 is not a difficult thing to attain to, whereas AC above 22 is difficult to achieve without powerbuilding. Does anybody know if such a mechanic would work in 5e? Considering 5e's Bounded Accuracy and the smaller scale of skill bonuses, could it work?

[JakOfAllTirades]

D&D 5E uses Ability checks for pretty much everything; the question is whether to add your Proficiency bonus or not. This broadly applies to both skills and weapons, so there's not a whole lot of difference between the two to begin with. The main difference, as far as I know, is there is no Expertise mechanic that applies to weapon attacks, nor should there be. That would not only break Bounded Accuracy, but shatter it into a thousand pieces on its way through your character's skull.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

An ability check would as an attack would only be broken if you have Expertise or a similar feature attached to it.

Otherwise it's not much different than what you already do.

Also, this reminds me, I need to update/work on my project.

[GlenSmash!]

An ability check would as an attack would only be broken if you have Expertise or a similar feature attached to it.

Otherwise it's not much different than what you already do.

Also, this reminds me, I need to update/work on my project.

Yup Expertise or Guidance or the like. (I know Bless can do for attack roles what guidance does for checks, but it at least costs a spell slot).

[Chronos]

There are also different methods for giving advantage on checks vs. attacks. Enhance Ability can give you advantage on all checks with some score for an hour; there's nothing comparable for attacks.

[Bjarkmundur]

Using different abilities as part of an attacks is perfectly fine. Even though it is easier to get ability check bonuses than attack bonuses, the bonus is mostly negated by requiring two different rolls using two different stats to pull of a single action, since maneuvers usually come 'on top of' the regular attack. The chance of pulling off the attack and the maneuver is far less than pulling off just one, and being MAD can also be less effective than SAD.

You can post the whole thing, with your changes, on the homebrew forums and we can take a look at it there :)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

There are also different methods for giving advantage on checks vs. attacks. Enhance Ability can give you advantage on all checks with some score for an hour; there's nothing comparable for attacks.

Rogue can give advantage to others as a bonus action.

Find Familiar too.

Advantage is a good thing, but not broken.

[PeteNutButter]

Wouldn't that make Enhance Ability advantage to attacks for an hour... for a second level spell. Might be something to watch out for.

[GlenSmash!]

There are also different methods for giving advantage on checks vs. attacks. Enhance Ability can give you advantage on all checks with some score for an hour; there's nothing comparable for attacks.


Wouldn't that make Enhance Ability advantage to attacks for an hour... for a second level spell. Might be something to watch out for.

Yeah advantage for an hour that cheap is likely to be trouble.

Barbarians pay a much steeper cost for at will advantage, and even then only in melee when using strength.

[Teaguethebean]

There are also different methods for giving advantage on checks vs. attacks. Enhance Ability can give you advantage on all checks with some score for an hour; there's nothing comparable for attacks.

Foresight gives advantage on all attacks. Though it is 9th level.

[PhantomSoul]

Some immediate thoughts for effects of turning Attack Rolls into Ability Checks:
- Expertise on Ability Checks, like others mentioned
- Spells for Ability Checks (I hadn't thought of Advantage/Disadvantage -- could be rephrased, but true that it's also a difference)
- Abilities like a Bard's Jack of All Trades
- Abilities like a Rogue's Reliable Talent
- Critical hits and Critical misses
(Granted, I don't know how the PF ability worked, so might not be an issue!)

Perhaps you could phrase it as a special kind of Attack (à la Grapple), tack on an Ability Check (but that means two Rolls), or have the opponent make an Ability Check contested by your Attack Roll (effectively Attack Roll as the DC).

[Vogie]

So I used to play Pathfinder very frequently until I found the simplicity and customization of 5e much more my style, however I recently came across some old notes about a Pathfinder class that I really wanted to play, but never did because I felt it was too overpowered (For those interested, it's the Warlord class published by Path of War). It had a playstyle similar to the Battlemaster Fighter, however it had a much wider variety of maneuvers and their uses were regained by performing Gambits (things like feint, grappling, etc). However, the thing I felt really unbalanced it was being able to use different ability checks as an attack roll when enacting these maneuvers. For those who know Pathfinder, having a +15 to a skill at level 10 is not a difficult thing to attain to, whereas AC above 22 is difficult to achieve without powerbuilding. Does anybody know if such a mechanic would work in 5e? Considering 5e's Bounded Accuracy and the smaller scale of skill bonuses, could it work?

I mean it depends on what you do - Grappling is a Contest of Athletics vs the targets Athletics or Acrobatics, while disarming is an non-damaging attack roll against the targets Athletics or Acrobatics.

I think you could do something like that with DM fiat. You could:

Have conditional stat bonuses that pop in while in combat - each time you hit the target, you gain +1 to athletics (or whatever) for a set period of time.
Create a Energy-Combo points-Finishing move system, similar to the WoW Rogues, that give you temporary bonuses, or your target temporary debuffs.
Standardize some other non-superiority maneuvers, such as Scare (Intimidate vs Wis Save), Feint (Slight of Hand vs Insight), or Bull Rush (Probably Move-Hit vs Str Save) that you can do to interact with creatures in a non-attack, non-help way to recharge things.
For contests, double all static modifiers on both sides of the fight (a +8 to athletics becomes +16), thus shrinking the value of things like bless/BI/Guidance/bane/Hex on both targets.




- Critical hits and Critical misses
That's a good point - you'll be missing a chunk of damage just because it's impossible to "critical hit" without hitting. I'd take a page from PF2 and have an idea of what "critical success" and "critical failure" for both you and your targets is, ahead of time. Crit successes by them (or failures by you) could be a simple "immunity to this feature for X time" that we see in some spells/abilities, or something more robust.