Tiering spheres classes for backporting to 3.5

[Sutr]

I've been thinking about going back to DM 3.5 its the system that I know the best. Optimization advice is that 3.5's players handbook is the worst balanced of the books printed for 3.5. I'm thinking of banning it/most of it. Spheres of power seems to be a decent replacement for magic.

Other pathfinder material that looked interesting to add back into the game that I'd be interested to add would be Pathfinders Akashic Mysteries, path of war and spheres of power. Has anyone else used these in a 3.5 game.

Roughly what tier would these classes be if moved back into 3.5?

[Snowbluff]

Spheres of Power is decent. The thing about it is that classes are either kind of trash or decent based on their casting progression, though. You need quite a few talents to really do anything, so having variety or even decent DCs means playing a full caster. On the opposite end of the spectrum is the SoP Paladin, which on top of being 1/2 caster level, it also has a caster level penalty. You get like 10 talents. Ever. And the saves, spell pen, DCs, attack rolls on them are never good. More CL is better.

PoW is ToB. Solid Tier 3. They should slot in nicely with the existing class.

From what I can tell, Akashic Mysteries is Magic of Incarnum. Again, solidly versatile and balanced as far as I can tell at first glance.

If it sounds like I'm saying "X is just Y 3.5 book," it's because it is. There was a strong market for all of the subsystems left behind by switching to PF.

[StSword]

If it sounds like I'm saying "X is just Y 3.5 book," it's because it is. There was a strong market for all of the subsystems left behind by switching to PF.

Yes, path of war is totally tome of battle for pathfinder.

Akashic mysteries is totally incarnum for pathfinder.

I'd even go so far as to say that spheres of power is the warlock/dragonfire adept for pathfinder. Just immensely expanded.

[Psyren]

Don't forget Radiance House's Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pactmaker) (formerly Occultist), which is basically binding for Pathfinder :smallsmile: You can even slot in all the existing vestiges with the Pactmaker's superior chassis if you want.

[digiman619]

Don't forget Radiance House's Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pactmaker) (formerly Occultist), which is basically binding for Pathfinder :smallsmile: You can even slot in all the existing vestiges with the Pactmaker's superior chassis if you want.

Eh, it would probably need a small bit of rejiggering. the vestiges only go up to 8th level and don't have alignments*, totems+, capstone empowerments@, favored allies/enemies$, or vestigial bond&. I mean, you could run them as is, but they aren't as complete as the others. Also, they'd probably have to be Starless as far as constellation~ goes.

* Binding something of your exact alignment is easier, and binding one of exact opposite are harder.
+ Totems are a trio of optional additional requirements that can make binding easier.
@ A capstone empowerment is an upgrade to your major power (the one that take 5 rounds to recover) that you get if you beat the DC by 10+
$ Favored allies/enemies get +2/- to bind, respectively. Some granted abilities will care about them.
& A vestigial bond trades out one of the minor granted abilities for either another ability or a temporary animal companion/familiar/mount, depending on the vestige.
~ The vestige are split into 12 constellations; think like how magic is broken up into 8 schools. There's also starless, which don't belong to any.

[Psyren]

Eh, it would probably need a small bit of rejiggering. the vestiges only go up to 8th level and don't have alignments*, totems+, capstone empowerments@, favored allies/enemies$, or vestigial bond&. I mean, you could run them as is, but they aren't as complete as the others. Also, they'd probably have to be Starless as far as constellation~ goes.

Nah, most of that isn't required. Totems, favoreds, vestigial bonds can all be left blank; alignment for all of them can be TN and constellation can be Starless as you mentioned. That just leaves the Capstone Empowerment, which can be something basic like +1 to the DC of their abilities or something. For me, it's a small price to pay for letting someone port in an existing character or concept.

To be honest though, I'd personally relish the exercise of coming up with those variables for the ToM vestiges, at least the ones my players want to use.

[digiman619]

Nah, most of that isn't required. Totems, favoreds, vestigial bonds can all be left blank; alignment for all of them can be TN and constellation can be Starless as you mentioned. That just leaves the Capstone Empowerment, which can be something basic like +1 to the DC of their abilities or something. For me, it's a small price to pay for letting someone port in an existing character or concept.

To be honest though, I'd personally relish the exercise of coming up with those variables for the ToM vestiges, at least the ones my players want to use.
I did say a small bit. Also, pretty much all of those are buffs so if I had a Binder and a Sorcerer transitioning to PF, just as the Sorcerer suddenly gets a bloodline, I'd improve the vestiges at the same time. Though yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if someone hasn't already made a homebrew conversion for it.

[Khosan]

Spheres of Power is decent. The thing about it is that classes are either kind of trash or decent based on their casting progression, though. You need quite a few talents to really do anything, so having variety or even decent DCs means playing a full caster. On the opposite end of the spectrum is the SoP Paladin, which on top of being 1/2 caster level, it also has a caster level penalty. You get like 10 talents. Ever. And the saves, spell pen, DCs, attack rolls on them are never good. More CL is better.

To add to this, in general I think SoP full and mid casters hang around 2-3, low-casters down at 3-4. I might be over-estimating mid-casters, but it mostly comes down to the Prodigy and its absurd level of flexibility, general utility and barely even suffering a CL penalty compared to other mid-casters. The non-Prodigy mid-casters are probably closer to 3.

Spheres of Might I don't think does as well as its magical sister system. You're probably looking at T3-4 tops, but I haven't explored every possibility. In terms of pure power and damage dealing, it's weaker than ToB/PoW but ahead of straight PHB Fighter. You can pick up some extra utility and mobility options from Alchemy, Athletics and Scout and the extra skill points offered by some spheres are nice to have. You can be decently well-rounded but not exceptional at any one thing.

[Seerow]

I'd make an argument for Technician potentially hanging out in tier 2. The inventions are incredibly flexible and can provide caster levels of utility in specific areas by itself even before factoring in other class features and talents

Scholar I haven't spent much time digging into, but I feel like it should be able to hang out in that general weight class.

Armiger with the casting archetype probably comes into the general vicinity as well. Straight armiger has versatility to put most martial classes to shame but lacks the out of combat utility to punch out of tier 3.

Commander, especially with the new leadership sphere in addition to it's traditional focus on the warleader sphere seems like it's got the tier 2 punch in it's area of expertise, but is another class I haven't had opportunity to dig deeply into yet.

[Khosan]

I hadn't checked in a bit, so I didn't notice the Leadership sphere. That would definitely give them a bit of a power spike. I kinda also forgot about the Tech sphere, which also offers a huge amount of caster-like flexibility. Between the two of those (assuming they aren't banned for what I'd consider pretty fair reasons, i.e. not wanting to include steampunk or not wanting to include anything like Leadership), you can probably bump anything with access to them up by about half a tier.

[Seerow]

I hadn't checked in a bit, so I didn't notice the Leadership sphere. That would definitely give them a bit of a power spike. I kinda also forgot about the Tech sphere, which also offers a huge amount of caster-like flexibility. Between the two of those (assuming they aren't banned for what I'd consider pretty fair reasons, i.e. not wanting to include steampunk or not wanting to include anything like Leadership), you can probably bump anything with access to them up by about half a tier.

Technically any sphere user has access to both spheres. Though honestly, I don't like the Tech sphere at all (the mechanics seem really clunky compared to the rest of the system, even ignoring the flavor the entire sphere feels really out of place). But Leadership was made with the intention of taking the concept promised by the Leadership feat, but breaking it down to make it something acceptable for an average character to take. It should fit into any campaign where animal companions, summons, or domination are acceptable tactics.

Actually on that note, the Animal Sphere is another super high value sphere in terms of giving sphere characters access to some solid minionmancy.

Alchemy is another awesome sphere, 2-3 talents can turn any character into a competent healer or battlefield controller.

Re: The technician, my rating there was based almost wholly on class features. Just the inventions and gadgets are a ton of utility. Tack on the ability to be a top tier craftsman (Armor/Weapons, Wondrous Items, Golems, and permanent versions of your inventions), and some free trap/scout talents you're doing all right before picking any of your 15 talents + martial tradition. Once you pick those out you've probably got a solid go-to combat solution, and some more utility options. Or you can go with the Suit Crafter archetype and be Tony Stark, and make your entire party a set of iron man suits.

[Endarire]

I played a Technician (Mad Scientist archetype) in a 3.5 game with the GM's encouragement. It helped having a pet robot (modified from the default zombie) and a bit mech suit while still casting spells occasionally and using the Warp Sphere's Extraplanar Room as my lab.

[stack]

Mostly tier 3 or 4. For casters, you will be hard-pressed to be anything but tier 3 with basic talents. Anything that would meet the definition of granting tier 2 power should probably be an advanced talent. With free selection of advanced talents, any high caster without some form of flexible talents will be tier 2. Mid-casters under those circumstances might be tier 2, depending on what talents you consider to qualify you as tier 2, since you will be getting them later (gate doesn't raise a truenamer's tier since they get it at 20, so I am assuming CL15 advanced talents you get at the very end of the game don't move your tier).

Low casters I think have to be tier 3 given that they can pick up some tricks and still be passable beatsticks. Low 3, but still 3. Really, feat buy-in means anyone can get a couple tricks, but that is probably outside the scope of the question.

Sphere arcanist with open advanced talent selection technically has to be tier 1, despite a very limited selection of talents each day.

Pure SoM classes will be 3 or 4, since anyone can take any talent it means that if, say, alchemy or beastmastery are versatile enough to hit tier 3, all the classes have a tier 3 floor. Tiers measure potential, not individual builds. Not sure if open selection of legendary talents is enough to hit tier 2. If so, there is probably not enough of a breadth of them to achieve tier 1 on a talent-switching chassis. Well, leadership can give a great deal of versatility with legendary talents and a GM willing to let you find and recruit whatever you want, but you will still have a hard cap on the power of each individual creature. Not sure where that falls, tier-wise, but a summon monster caster will have similar versatility without spending days to find the helper.