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ThatHobbitGuy
2019-08-11, 03:03 AM
Hi,
My group and I are doing a sort of battle Royale campaign, where we choose characters from TV shows, Video Games, books etc and make them in 3.5 at 10th level, and we get 4 magic items. We have to follow all of the rules and homebrew is allowed if half of the group allows it. I am a huge LOTR fan and have decided to make Sauron. I have had a few ideas and was thinking about taking 4 levels in Warlock and 6 levels in warchief, as along with the Leadership feat and the extra followers feat I could make a huge Orcish army. I am not sure about what to do for magic items, other feats and whether to change the class mixup as only 4 levels of Warlock is pretty weak for someone like Sauron. Suggestions appreciated.

PoeticallyPsyco
2019-08-11, 03:09 AM
Hmm, [arcane spellcasting class of your choice] 1/ Warlock 3/ Eldritch Theurge 6 would make for a pretty imposing Dark Lord (using Precocious Apprentice as your first level feat to give you a 2nd level spell to qualify for Eldritch Theurge). Maybe Dread Necromancer as the arcane class to double down on minionmancy?

EDIT: No wait, you need at least one other level of something to meet the skill requirements. So [Arcane] 2/Warlock 3/ET 5 or [Arcane] 1/Warlock 4/ET 5. Still gets you the best class features of Eldritch Theurge, though, the abilities that let you cast a spell and Eldritch Blast at the same time.

Arutema
2019-08-11, 03:20 AM
Sauron is a fallen maiar spirit, based on what we know of him from The Silmarillion, so your best bet for modeling him is probably to look at what evil outsider provides the most appropriate base chassis, then add class levels or templates.

ThatHobbitGuy
2019-08-11, 04:00 AM
Okay, what about magic items? I would like something for the One ring, maybe a ring of spell storing with spells in it or something, magic armour to boost his AC, a mace for combat if he needs to back up his Orcs and I definitely want the breastplate of command to boost his leadership score.

Gün
2019-08-11, 06:17 AM
Use item familiar for one ring. One ring is the item familiar after all

I also suggest an elf with otherworldly feat to become outsider(native) so you can have outsider goodies without racial HD or level adjustment. And since you are an outsider now, you have access to miriad of stuff to change into with alter self. I suggest using elf form as his fair form Annatar persona, and find a form of outsider for his giant, mace swinging, mind dominating Lord of the Rings persona. Sadly I cannot give any advice for which forms to change because I am not really good with monsters.

Mr Adventurer
2019-08-11, 07:06 AM
In the films, we don't often see him casting a ton of spells or anything. But we do see him swinging his big mace through tons of dudes. So, I'd recommend Half-giant going into War Mind. Get heavy armour, a big mace (Complete Warrior has a Warmace), and Knockback feat.

ShurikVch
2019-08-11, 07:43 AM
Sauron was a known shapeshifter - for example, see his encounter with Huan (https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Huan).
(Actually, Sauron is kinda like Loki for Arda)
So, give him some Wild Shape or something...

ThatHobbitGuy
2019-08-11, 07:52 AM
What about his orcs? Level, Class and Magic item suggestions have been great so far, but I have been thinking about taking the leadership feat to get a bunch of orcs, along with the extra follower's feat. Any ideas on how to optimize followers or cohorts?

Mr Adventurer
2019-08-11, 07:57 AM
Followers are hard to optimise for adventuring, so you have to decide what you want from them. If it's just an orc army, just pick warrior classes and go nuts (and remember Warblades have a strong tradition amongst Hobgoblins, so feel free to pick them).

A cool cohort could be the Witch-King, just make him a Warlock with spooky powers, I would.

Particle_Man
2019-08-11, 11:12 AM
Sauron was a known shapeshifter - for example, see his encounter with Huan (https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Huan).
(Actually, Sauron is kinda like Loki for Arda)
So, give him some Wild Shape or something...

Sauron as evil Druid for the win! 😀

Telonius
2019-08-11, 11:50 AM
The biggest question is, "Which Sauron?" Silmarillion Sauron is a very different thing than LOTR Sauron. Shape-changing, vampire form, gigantic warrior. When we're in LOTR, he's lost most of his power, as well as his ability to physically manifest (except for the Eye).

Either way, Sauron is pretty clearly a Diplomancer at heart. His main shtick is corruption and domination. Inducing the entire fall of Numenor (complete with corrupting its king) while he was in prison is probably his most famous action while he still had his physical form. Even in LOTR, his ability to influence others is incredible (corrupting Saruman and Denethor just from the palantir).

I'd say ... Warlock5/Mindbender 10/Evangelist5, plus whatever else you want to put on top of that. He clearly has the Forge Ring feat, as well as Item Familiar.

PoeticallyPsyco
2019-08-11, 11:50 AM
What about his orcs? Level, Class and Magic item suggestions have been great so far, but I have been thinking about taking the leadership feat to get a bunch of orcs, along with the extra follower's feat. Any ideas on how to optimize followers or cohorts?

Luckily for you, there was just a whole optimization challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593925-Military-Games-Act-1-the-Stand-of-300!) based around infantry (one even used orcs, but I don't think the flavor or some of the mechanics for that one are a good fit for Sauron).

Malphegor
2019-08-11, 01:49 PM
Mairon was a smith. Annatar was charismatic.

I’d argue Warlock for smithing- their ability to UMD check the relevant spells means that he’d probably be able to make a cursed ring of Enhance Skill easily (the Ring enhanced what was there- invisibility is supercharged Epic-ised version of hobbits’ innate Stealth check bonuses) if the relevant spell exists somewhere.

I’d argue he probably has a couple of level of marshal, with troops and all, maybe charisma bonus and bonus to attacks when flanking an enemy?

Half-Celestial template is probably lore-appropriate but kinda unecessary.

ThatHobbitGuy
2019-08-11, 06:56 PM
Okay, Thanks.

Âmesang
2019-08-11, 07:01 PM
I recall attempting to stat out Sauron years ago and eventually settled on a 15th-level demigod wizard, primarily so he'd make the feat qualification for the "Craft Artifact" salient divine ability.

Considering his "magic" tended to be a bit more subtle (from what I recall) and more native (due to his divine nature), if I were to try it again I'd probably go with artificer, at least as a base.

Celestia
2019-08-11, 07:35 PM
Well, if we're going by the actual lore, the best representation would be Outsider HD 20/Articifer 20. He's basically a lesser god, so he gets outsider HD and epic levels, and before he fell, he served Aulë, the Valar of smithing and craftsmanship, making articifer the most appropriate class. The rest of his powers and abilities are just SLAs from his outsider levels. He used to have at will Shapechange, but he lost this ability at the fall of Númenor.

Ramza00
2019-08-12, 02:38 PM
If you can get your DM to do an alignment shifted Ghaele from 3.0 Savage Species, I think it will be very similar to what Sauron is in flavor. (note the appearances of some abilities will have to be shifted, as is some alignment effects from various spells)

So at ECL 10 with Ghaele you have a 7 HD + 3 LA character who

Casts a 10th level Cleric (but no turn undead). Also can prepare spells from Air, Animal, Chaos, Good, and Plant domains. This cleric advancement is equal to your ECL (HD+LA) up to ECL 14 and then it suddenly stops.
Alternate Form become Incorporeal Being at will that has flight of 150 feet (perfect), can use its spell like abilities and light rays, but it can't cast spells until you shift to your outsider form.
7 HD of Outsider HD so you have 56 skill points + 7* Int per level, Base Fort+Reflex+Will Save of +5, BAB of 7, and 3 Feats at HD 7 (1, 3, 6)
Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +4, NA +4 at ECL 10 +4 Saves against Poison.
Tongues
Protective Aura the Protective Aura is two effects Magic Circle against X but it is +4 to Deflection Bonus AC and +4 Resistance Bonus Saves, plus a Globe of Invulnerability that works on 3rd level spells and below.
Spell Resistance equal to your ECL+8
Spell Like Abilities at will: aid, alter self, color spray, comprehend languages, continual
flame, cure light wounds, dancing lights, detect evil, detect thoughts, and see invisibility.
Spell Like Abilities 3 a day: charm monster, dispel magic, hold monster, improved invisibility (self only), major image.
Spell Like Abilities 1 a day: chain lightning and wall of force
Light Ray (Ex): A ghaele in globe form can project two ight rays per round with a range of 300 feet, dealing the indicated damage of 2d6 at ECL 10.
Gaze: I am not describing the full ability here for simplicity but creatures Evil Creatures (so Good if you do an alignment shift) must make a fear save of 10+1/2 ECL+Cha (so 15+Cha) or suffer fear. In addition some creatures of very low HD may instantly die.
Ghaeles are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, but not with armor or shields.
Land Speed of 50 feet, LLV, Dark Vision of 60 feet.
Outsider Resistances of 5 to certain things (probably should be shifted with an alignment change at ECL 10.
Damage Reduction of 5/+1 at ECL 10 but this is 3.0 and that should be DR 5 / Alignment for Outsiders in 3.5


At 10 ECL the 7 HD + 3 LA of Ghaelee that gives you all the abilities I mentioned above is awesome.

At 14 ECL (8 HD+6 LA) you gain the last level of the automatic level of caster level increase via cleric. You have only 8 HD but remember you get the stat bonuses, magic circle against X, good outsider hd, and so on so effectively at 14 ECL you are like a wizard or cloistered cleric but with cleric spells.
After 14 ECL the amount of abilities you gain is not worth it. But from a Spell Level 1 to 7 Ghaele is quite incredible to make a Sauron character.

How this character plays is it starts off as a very tough cleric, and then it shifts into a cloistered cleric but with some mystic theurge thrown in for it gets all those at will spell like abilities and some other spell like abilities that are 1 / day and 3 / day.

Elves
2019-08-12, 03:47 PM
Well at core he's a craftsman, since he was one of the spirits who served Aule the smith god. That's where the ring forging ability comes from, as well as one presumes his "material" focus in terms of wanting domination of the mortal world.

(Obviously Tolkien was very preoccupied with the "morality" of craftsmanship, not just the rings but the Silmarils, the whole thing about pouring your energy into your creations so that each one leaves you weaker than the last, the thing about evil only being able to corrupt, and his perception of his own worldbuilding as only being "sub-creation", which seems to taste a little bit of resignation.)

He's very Lawful, where Saruman is the technocrat he is the one-party autocrat who prizes efficiency. "It had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall ...) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction". Thus, "it was the will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him." So he liked that Melkor was running the factory smoothly and without flinching. And he first moved up the ranks with Melkor by keeping the operations running while Melkor was imprisoned in Valinor.


Then the second part of his powers are the sorts of sorcery he seemed to have gained from Morgoth, including shapeshifting into evil animals. The fact that these sorcery powers are quite different from his original powers of craftsmanship suggest a multiclass and/or new prc.


Then there's his social skills, which were augmented greatly by the Ring. Contrary to the post earlier up, I don't think a diplomancer build fits, because it's stated to be the Ring's powers to dominate and bend people's minds that made him such a great manipulator. I would give him maxed socials and leave it at that.


Then the last part, if you're doing a post-1st age build, is the Ring; I wouldn't worry about capturing its more numinous qualities, just about a few benefits Sauron gets while wearing it. These are likely to include social skill boosts, SLAs of dominate and other manipulation spells, CL boosting, and probably physical boosting and overall empowerment, plus if he loses it, of course, he loses.

Thurbane
2019-08-12, 05:40 PM
A fallen Solar would seem to fit at least one incarnation of Sauron.

Maybe with the Radiant Idol template (Sharn City of Towers p.180). Never mind, it's not a template.

Elves
2019-08-13, 02:23 AM
Yeah, LE fallen solar with ranks in various Craft skills and redone feats that include Item Familiar seems like a great way of doing it simply. Just tweak the solar's Change Shape to include animals, and up to huge or gargantuan size.

Here's a statblock for him:


Sauron, Fallen Maia

Size/Type: Large Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 22d8+110 (209 hp)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 150 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 46 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +21 natural, +13 armor), touch 25, flat-footed 43
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+35
Attack: +5 many enhancements greatmace +35 melee (3d6+18/19-20) plus 2d6 unholy plus banes
Full Attack: +5 many enhancements greatmace +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (3d6+18/19-20) plus 2d6 unholy plus banes, or slam +30 melee (2d8+13)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: Change shape, DR 15/epic and good, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, immunity to acid, cold, and petrification, protective aura, regeneration 15, resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10, spell resistance 32, tongues
Saves: Fort +18 (+22 against poison), Ref +18, Will +20
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 25, Wis 25, Cha 25
Skills: Bluff +34, Concentration +30, Craft (Metalworking) +33, Craft (Stoneworking) +33, Knowledge (Arcana) +33, Knowledge (History) +33, Knowledge (Religion) +33, Diplomacy +34, Escape Artist +30, Hide +23, Listen +32, Move Silently +27, Search +31, Sense Motive +32, Spellcraft +31, Spot +32, Survival +7, Use Rope +5 (+7 with bindings)
Feats: Power Attack, Spontaneous Domains, Forge Ring, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Item Familiar, two metamagic feats of your choice (or cleave & great cleave if you liked the movie image of him bashing through the ranks), and either Forge Epic Ring or Epic Spellcasting.
Environment: Where he wills
Challenge Rating: 23
Treasure: possessions, below
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Advancement: 23-33 HD (Large); 34-66 HD (Huge)

Sauron is a champion of evil, exceeded in power only by the Valar themselves. He was a senior maia in service to Aule, much stronger than the lesser maiar who became balrogs and Istari. Allured by Morgoth’s drive and autocratic efficiency, he turned traitor and rose to become Morgoth’s second in command. After Morgoth’s fall, Sauron survived and began his own schemes for power in Middle Earth, which keyed on forging a Ring of Power into which he poured much of his essence.

He has a deep and commanding voice, and stands about 12 feet tall. He weighs about 800 pounds.

Combat
If forced into direct combat, Sauron employs an extensive regimen of buff spells, including greater mighty wallop from his sorcerers and, if possible, haste. Against another maia (or other magical opponent) he will engage in a duel of spells, but when faced with mortal champions he enjoys going out to wreak physical havoc with his Grond-like greatmace. He personally forged his weapon and armor. In the case of a spell duel he uses his mace's spellstrike ability to transfer its full enhancement bonus to his saves against spells and SLAs.

Sauron’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are treated as Evil-aligned and epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

He's proficient with heavy armor. His stats above include his mithril fullplate.

Change Shape(Su)
Sauron can assume the form of any Small, Medium, Large or Huge humanoid or Fiendish animal.

After the fall of Numenor, he can no longer assume fair or beautiful forms.

Regeneration(Ex)
Sauron takes normal damage from epic good-aligned weapons, and from spells or effects with the Good descriptor.

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, unholy smite (DC 21), imprisonment (DC 26), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration (DC 19), remove curse (DC 20), remove disease (DC 20), remove fear (DC 18), resist energy, summon monster VII, speak with dead (DC 20), waves of fatigue
3/day—blade barrier (DC 23), earthquake (DC 25), harm (DC 23), mass charm monster (DC 25), permanency, resurrection, waves of exhaustion
1/day—greater restoration (DC 24), power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray (DC 24), wish. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

The following abilities are always active on Sauron’s person, as the spells (caster level 20th):
detect good, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 21), see invisibility, true seeing. They can be dispelled, but Sauron can reactivate them as a free action.

Spells
Sauron can cast divine spells as a 20th-level cleric. He has access to the Craft, Earth, Tyranny and War domains, representing his service to Aule and later to Morgoth. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Thanks to Spontaneous Domains, his domain slots are left open. He can use these slots to spontaneously cast any spell of that level from his granted domain lists. He uses his Tyranny domain spells to manipulate, his War domain spells in combat, his Craft domain spells to craft, and seldom now uses his Earth domain spells except for Stoneskin, Earthquake and Iron Body.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/8/8/8/7/7/6/6/5/5; save DC 17 + spell level)

0—create water, detect magic, guidance (2), resistance (2)
1st—bless, cause fear, divine favor (2), entropic shield, protection from good, shield of faith, domain slot*
2nd—bear’s endurance (2), bull’s strength (2), consecrate, eagle’s splendor, lore of the gods, domain slot*
3rd—invisibility purge, magic circle against good, magic vestment (already cast), prayer, protection from energy, wind wall, vision of the omniscient eye, domain slot*
4th—death ward (2), dismissal, divine power, freedom of movement, greater magic weapon (already cast), neutralize poison, domain slot*
5th—break enchantment, plane shift, righteous might (2), surge of fortune, swift etherealness, domain slot*
6th—banishment, heal (2), spiritual guardian, word of recall, domain slot*
7th—blasphemy, destruction, ethereal jaunt, greater consumptive field, regenerate, domain slot*. Item Familiar slots: control weather, greater bestow curse (2), greater scrying, repulsion
8th—greater spell immunity, unholy aura, mass death ward, summon monster VIII, domain slot*
9th—etherealness, gate, miracle, storm of vengeance, domain slot*

*Domain spell. Domains: Craft, Earth, Tyranny, War.

Possessions
(you said four magic items, right?)

1) The One Ring (item familiar)

2) +1 unholy, elfbane, goodoutsiderbane, humanbane, spellstrike, spellstoring, valorous, banishing, doomwarding, sizing, spellbane, sudden stunning, vanishing adamantine greatmace (might want to swap out the banes for your battle royale tournament)

3) +1 displacement, energy immunity, ghost ward, heavy fortification, bane blind (elf), bane blind (good outsider), bane blind (human), blueshine, called, healing, fearsome, masking, mindarmor, mirror image mithril fullplate

4) Third Eye Conceal (stylized as the Sauron eye)

5) +1 warning spiked gauntlet (okay that makes 5 items but his Initiative is too low otherwise)

The One Ring as an Item Familiar
Purpose: POWA
Powers TBA

Sauron has all available XP invested in the Ring.

Sauron has 285 skill points invested in the Ring, granting him a +95 skill bonus that can be distributed across his skills, even those in which he already has maximum ranks. He can't apply more of this bonus to a single skill than he has ranks in that skill (25 for his maxed skills).

Sauron has all 5 of his 9th level spell slots invested in the Ring, granting him 5 bonus slots of 7th level.

Saintheart
2019-08-13, 03:01 AM
Guess Sauron is kind of covered, how about the One Ring?

Some sort of permanent Telepathic Bond with the Nazgul seems appropriate; Fell Conspiracy out of Exemplars of Evil also seems within scope.

Telonius
2019-08-13, 08:11 AM
It's pretty clearly an Artifact (given how you had to destroy it). The basic item is Sauron's Item Familiar. It's definitely an Intelligent Item. Invisibility effect, obviously. It creates a Suggestion or Dominate effect on anyone who uses it or a similarly-created ring. Rings affect the various races differently. Humans are turned into Death Knights; Dwarves have their greed kindled and obsess over accumulating wealth.

The Ring can cast a Bestow Curse effect once in a very long while. (It cursed Gollum to cast himself into the fire if ever he touched it again).

Being in possession of the Ring extends your life unnaturally. However, you take Taint and Corruption based on how much you use it.

Elves
2019-08-13, 10:48 AM
The invisibility part was only for hobbits IIRC, it's one of the species effects since hobbits are already good at hiding and being unseen. For a D&D representation I think there are 5 parts to its practical powers.

1) Augmenting you according to your nature (dwarf greed, men political power, hobbits invisibility, elves preservation and beautification, maiar spellcasting and world domination, orcs fresh meat)
2) Taint and corruption. Certain corruption milestones are linked to
3) Extended lifespan and eventual wraithification (except possibly for maiar)
4) Manipulation, including the turmoil the ring causes in its wearer, the discord it spreads, and its ability to manipulate minds as shown when Sauron was in Numenor.
5) Master ring. Becoming the master of the bearers of rings that are beholden to it. This could simply take the form of them getting a big save disadvantage vs the ring's manipulation powers, but telepathic bond is a good suggestion.

ShurikVch
2019-08-13, 12:22 PM
It's pretty clearly an Artifact (given how you had to destroy it).Note: focus item of Kissed by the Ages spell (Dragon #354) can't be destroyed with anything less than artifact or direct divine intervention (or something of similar magnitude)

Ramza00
2019-08-13, 12:47 PM
The invisibility part was only for hobbits IIRC, it's one of the species effects since hobbits are already good at hiding and being unseen. For a D&D representation I think there are 5 parts to its practical powers.

Tolkien was blending different myth sources with his Ring of Power. The invisibility power comes from Plato (The Republic) and the Ring of Gyges myth / sometimes called Glaucon's Ring. It goes back to a Greek Myth of Gyges of Lydia, where there was an Iron Age kingdom of Lydia in Asia Minor (so modern day Turkey) that controlled the peninsula including the location of Troy (a Bronze Age kingdom.) Well Gyges of Lydia in some of the tales, in Plato's version, discovers a ring of invisibility in a cave (that an earthquake opened) on the corpse of a giant. Well Gyges uses the ring to go from a Shepherd all the way to a King via using the power of invisibility to seduce the King's Wife, and then later murdering the King.

This ring of Plato is sometimes called Glaucon's Ring for in Plato's Republic, Socrates was arguing with Plato's older Brother Glaucon that give the temptation of power and corruption can one resist it and remain a good man. Glaucon argues no, that in the end given the power of the ring you would be corrupted. Plato (using Socrates as his voice in this dialogue) disagrees with his older brother.

-----




At the same time Tolkien also borrowed many aspects of Rings of Power from Germanic language family myths (so modern German, Norse, Scandinavia, etc all have versions of these myths.) Thus many of the other powers of the One Ring is more like the powers you see in myths like the Andvaranaut ring. (Borrows from wikipedia for brevity.)


In Norse mythology, Andvaranaut (Andvari's Gift), first owned by Andvari [a dwarf], is a magic ring that could help with finding sources of gold.[1]

The mischievous god Loki stole Andvari's treasure and the ring. In revenge, Andvari cursed the ring to bring misfortune and destruction to whoever possessed it. Loki quickly gave the cursed Andvaranaut to Hreidmar, King of the Dwarves, as reparation for having inadvertently killed Hreidmar's son, Ótr.

Ótr's brother, Fafniralso a dwarf, then murdered Hreidmarking of the dwarves and took the ring, turning into a dragon to guard it. Sigurd (Siegfried) later killed Fafnir and gave Andvaranaut to Brynhildr (Brünnehilde). Queen Grimhild of the Nibelungs then manipulated Sigurd and Brynhildr into marrying her children, bringing Andvaranaut's curse into her family.

Wagner then used this and other myths to create his famous 4 part opera series.

Now Tolkien was inspired by many sources (he was a language nerd after all.) And he was always offended when people asked if he was doing a modern retelling of story X such as Wagner. In response Tolkien said both his and Wagner's ring are both round and that is where the similarities end. (Which is a true point for parts of the story may be similar but overall the stories are so different.)

But yeah in Germanic / Norse / Scandinavian Myth it is quite common for magic artifacts such as rings help people gain great power and authority.

PoeticallyPsyco
2019-08-13, 12:48 PM
Um, didn't the OP say this was supposed to be for level 10? Fallen Solars and such are great for accurately representing Sauron, but ECL 10 they ain't. And since this is for a player, not the DM, a custom artifact is not necessarily in the cards.

Ramza00
2019-08-13, 01:07 PM
Um, didn't the OP say this was supposed to be for level 10? Fallen Solars and such are great for accurately representing Sauron, but ECL 10 they ain't. And since this is for a player, not the DM, a custom artifact is not necessarily in the cards.

Yes he did, :smalltongue: I was wanting to keep on pointing this out but also did not want to get in an argument in forums about this.

There is a reason why I personally recommend a fallen Ghaele (a type of Eladrin) which the full progression is an ECL 20 / CR 13 monster, but due to savage species you can play a 7 HD + 3 LA CR 6 version of it.

Sure a Solar may be even more awesome than a Ghaele, but a Solar is not ECL 10 but is instead a insane much higher than 20 ECL creature. Even the Ghaele is much too high of ECL, but the 10 ECL version of it still replicates most of Sauron's famous abilities.

Elves
2019-08-13, 01:11 PM
For 10th level I would do a Sauron the Necromancer build representing his existence as a wraith.

But Ghaele could certainly be cool since you could refluff their "ball of light form" as "floating fiery Eye of Sauron form" and their "light ray" power as an "eye searchlight beam" power. They also have CL 12th which is just enough to qualify for Forge Ring.

Demidos
2019-08-13, 01:23 PM
Are you more leaning towards fidelity to what we see in the films/books, or towards an internally-consistent powerful build?

Also, what power level are your friends building to?

For example, item familiars, leadership, and a dragonfire inspiration stacking bard with a dip into marshal (for the charisma aura) and crusader for combat benefits, white raven tactics and song of the white raven sounds reasonable as a build for Sauron, but may be overwhelming for the other players (mostly due to the brokenness of leadership).

Bard 8/Marshal 1/Crusader 1 with

Dragonfire Inspiration
Words of Creation (suppppper thematic, but unfortunately limited to good only as an exalted feat. See if you can convince your group.)
White Raven Tactics for extra turns
Song of the White Raven for dragonfire AND regular inspire



Of course, you could also just play a diplomancer, which would probably be more appropriate while also having many heavy objects thrown at your head because playing against it would not be fun.

Ramza00
2019-08-13, 01:39 PM
But Ghaele could certainly be cool since you could refluff their "ball of light form" as "floating fiery Eye of Sauron form" and their "light ray" power as an "eye searchlight beam" power. They also have CL 12th which is just enough to qualify for Forge Ring.

If the goal is only 1 ring instead of multiple rings, Ancestral Relic (once again reflavored since it is supposed to be good alignment but Sauron is evil) works better. Both Ancestral Relic and Forge Ring allow you to craft one personal ring, but Ancestral Relic allows you to sacrifice items at their original price instead of selling them for 50% and then using the 50% to craft at the 50% cost.

Furthermore items are supposed not to surpass 1/4 your WBL but Ancestral Relic specifically allows you to use 1/2 your WBL.

Technically you can even extract a higher amount of WBL than is expected with Ancestral Relic with party cooperation. Let say there is an axe that no one wants, offer to buy that axe at a discount that is less than the 50% of its value and thus any discount you get is more wealth by level to be put into your ancestral relic.

-----

Another route for Sauron could be going Thrallherd as a Telepath. Take Kalashtar as your race, and then reflavor Power Link Shards as your One Ring. Bypass the normal manifester level limit of 10 at ECL 10 and then use Power Link Shards to throw out Manifester Level 30 effects.

ShurikVch
2019-08-13, 02:07 PM
lvl 10 Sauron is Malaugrim (Monsters of Faerûn) with swapped feats and skills, and -1 HD (from the Resurrection)

Elves
2019-08-13, 02:40 PM
If the goal is only 1 ring instead of multiple rings, Ancestral Relic (once again reflavored since it is supposed to be good alignment but Sauron is evil) works better. Both Ancestral Relic and Forge Ring allow you to craft one personal ring, but Ancestral Relic allows you to sacrifice items at their original price instead of selling them for 50% and then using the 50% to craft at the 50% cost.

I'm assuming the One Ring would still be a custom artifact, not an item made with WBL. Forge Ring because he aided in the creation of all the other rings, though I realize this thread has an Optimization tag.


Had a sec so I did the ghaele Sauron statblock. Animal shapechanging now comes from animal shapes SLA replacing one of the ghaele's 7th level SLAs.


Sauron the Not-So-Powerful

Size/Type: Large Outsider (Lawful, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 10d8+20 (65 hp)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 150 ft. (perfect) (eye form only)
Armor Class: 37 (+1 Dex, -1 size, +14 natural, +13 armor), touch 23, flat-footed 36, or in Eye form AC 14 (+1 Dex, +3 deflection), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+17
Melee: +1 unholy adamantine greatmace +22/+17 melee (3d6+15/19-20 plus 2d6 unholy)
Ranged (eye form only): Eye ray +11 ranged touch (2d12, range 300 ft.); two eye rays with full attack
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, spells, gaze
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 10/good and cold iron, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and petrification, low-light vision, protective aura, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10 spell resistance 28, tongues
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +10
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 16
Skills: Concentration +15, Craft (Metalworking) +16, Craft (Stoneworking) +16, Diplomacy +5, Escape Artist +11, Hide +11, Knowledge (Arcana) +16, Knowledge (History) +16, Knowledge (Religion) +16, Listen +16, Move Silently +11, Sense Motive +16, Spot +16, Use Rope +1
Feats: Power Attack, Item Familiar, Spontaneous Domains, Forge Ring
Environment: Where he wills
Organization: Solitary, accompanied by Nazgul and other elite sorcerous servants, or leading his armies
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: See possessions, below
Alignment: Lawful Evil


Sauron is about 10 feet tall and weighs about 500 pounds.

He can also take the form of an incorporeal, burning eye. On the battlefield this eye is 5 feet in diameter.

He can communicate with almost any creature, thanks to his tongues ability.


Combat

If forced into direct combat, Sauron employs an extensive regimen of buff spells, including greater mighty wallop from his sorcerers and, if possible, haste. He usually fights in his humanoid form, wielding his immense unholy greatmace. If he desires mobility, he assumes his Eye of Sauron form and blasts the enemy with searchlight rays from above. When dueling a spellcaster, he uses his mace's spellstrike property to shift its enhancement bonus (boosted with Greater Magic Weapon) to his saves against spells and SLAs.

Sauron's natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are treated as lawful-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Spell-Like Abilities

At will—aid, charm monster (DC 17), protection from good, comprehend languages, continual flame, cure light wounds, inflict light wounds (DC 14), dancing lights, detect good, detect thoughts (DC 15), alter self, dispel magic, hold monster (DC 18), greater invisibility (self only), major image (DC 16), see invisibility, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only)
1/day—destruction (DC 20), blasphemy (DC 20), ethereal jaunt, animal shapes.

Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Spells
Sauron, when in humanoid form, can cast divine spells as 14th-level cleric. He has access to the Craft, Earth, Tyranny and War domains, representing his service to Aule and later to Morgoth. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Thanks to Spontaneous Domains, his domain slots are left open. He can use these slots to spontaneously cast any spell of that level from his granted domain lists. He uses his Tyranny domain spells to manipulate, his War domain spells in combat, his Craft domain spells to craft, and seldom now uses his Earth domain spells except for Stoneskin.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/7/7/6/5/4/4/3; save DC 13 + spell level)
0—cure minor wounds, detect magic, guidance, light, resistance, virtue
1st—bless, command, divine favor, obscuring mist, sanctuary, shield of faith, domain slot*
2nd—aid, bear’s endurance, bull's strength, eagle's splendor, lesser restoration, remove paralysis, domain slot*
3rd—invisibility purge, prayer, protection from energy, remove curse, wind wall, domain slot*
4th—death ward, dismissal, divine power, restoration, domain slot*
5th—flame strike, righteous might, true seeing, domain slot*. Item Familiar slots—plane shift, surge of fortune, swift etherealness
6th—banishment, blade barrier, heal, domain slot*
7th—greater bestow curse, summon monster VII, domain slot*

*Domain spell. Domains: Craft, Earth, Tyranny, War.

Alternate Form (Su)
Sauron can shift between his humanoid and Eye of Sauron forms as a standard action. In humanoid form, he cannot fly or use his eye rays, but he can use his gaze attack and spell-like abilities, make physical attacks, and cast spells. In Eye form, he can fly, use his eye rays, and use spell-like abilities, but can't cast spells or use its gaze attack. The Eye form is incorporeal, and Sauron has no Strength score while in that form.

Sauron remains in one form until he chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does Sauron revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability, however, reveals both forms simultaneously.

Eye Ray (Ex)
Sauron in his Eye form can project harmful, searchlight-like light rays with a range of 300 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.

Gaze (Su)
Humanoid form only. Slay good creatures of 5 or less HD, range 60 feet, Will DC 18 negates. Even if the save succeeds, the creature is affected as though by a fear spell for 2d10 rounds. Nongood creatures, and good creatures with more than 5 HD, must succeed on a DC 18 Will save or suffer the fear effect. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Protective Aura (Su)
Against attacks made or effects created by Good creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of Sauron. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against good effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level 10). (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in Sauron's statistics block.)

Tongues (Su)
Sauron can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.

Possessions
The One Ring
+1 unholy adamantine greatmace
+1 blurring, energy immunity, moderate fortification, ghost ward, called mithril fullplate
Third Eye Clarity, and a Third Eye View for utility purposes when at home. Both are stylized as Eyes of Sauron.
Several CL20 scrolls of Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Vestment, saved from the basements of Angband (one of each already used)
+1 warning spiked gauntlet

The One Ring as an Item Familiar
Purpose: POWA
Abilties t.b.a.

Sauron has invested all possible xp in the Ring.

Sauron has invested 72 skill points in the Ring, giving him a +24 bonus that he can distribute among his skills, though no single skill can receive more of this bonus than he has skill ranks in it (13 for his maxed skills).

Sauron has invested all of his 7th level spells in the Ring, giving him 3 bonus slots of 5th level.

Ramza00
2019-08-13, 03:24 PM
Had a sec so I did the ghaele Sauron statblock. Animal shapechanging now comes from animal shapes SLA replacing one of the ghaele's 7th level SLAs.


The 3.0 version of Ghaele has some minor differences in Spell Like Abilities.
At will - aid, alter self, charm monster, color spray, comprehend languages, continual flame, cure light wounds, dancing lights, detect evil, detect thoughts, dispel magic, hold monster, improved invisibility (self only), major image, see invisibility and teleport without error (self plus 50 pounds of objects only);
1/day - chain lightning, prismatic spray and wall of force. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 12th-level sorcerer (save DC 13 + spell level).

Here is the 3.5 version
At will—aid, charm monster (DC 17), color spray (DC 14), comprehend languages, continual flame, cure light wounds (DC 14), dancing lights, detect evil, detect thoughts (DC 15), disguise self, dispel magic, hold monster (DC 18), greater invisibility (self only), major image (DC 16), see invisibility, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only);
1/day—chain lightning (DC 19), prismatic spray (DC 20), wall of force. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

So in effect greater teleport is teleport without error but a 3.5 conversion, greater invisibility is improved invisibility but a 3.5 conversion, and alter self becomes disguise self.

I think it would make sense to allow Sauron as a Ghaele at level 10 to do Alter Self. For at level 10 you already have NA of +4 and Damage Reduction of 5 / Alignment, Elemental Resistances based off Alignment, Protective Aura, Spell Resistance, etc. Allowing Alter Self to appear as Outsiders up to 5 HD or Humanoids up to 5 HD (yes this is another house rule) makes sense to my mind flavor wise with what Sauron can do and it is not really an increase of abilities and is often a decrease in abilities.

That or allow him to cast alter self as a 2nd level spell as an exception to the normal limitations of clerics casting.

Animal Shapes as a 7th level spell replicates the Werewolf and Serpent forms he took on in the Silmarillion.

Elves
2019-08-13, 04:36 PM
Changed. I still prefer the Solar build (maybe with the addition of the Eye form from the ghaele), but it's pretty good for a "Gandalf was a 5th-level wizard" depiction of LOTR. 65HP is a bit eh, but in that schema Gil-galad and Elendil were no doubt 5th-level vanilla fighters with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization so it's not a problem really.

Ramza00
2019-08-13, 05:04 PM
Changed. I still prefer the Solar build (maybe with the addition of the Eye form from the ghaele), but it's pretty good for a "Gandalf was a 5th-level wizard" depiction of LOTR. 65HP is a bit eh, but in that schema Gil-galad and Elendil were no doubt 5th-level vanilla fighters with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization so it's not a problem really.

At ECL 10 / CR 6 Damage Reduction of 5 / Alignment means you absorb 27% of a 2d6 if they hit your AC and you reduce the damage of a 12 to 7. Furthermore you can use spells to boost that protection even further. You get this damage reduction at ECL 10. Combine with the ability to go incorporeal at will, flight of 150 feet perfect, and the ability to use cure light wounds at will means that Sauron can do hit and run tactics while still being close to the enemies that he is pursuing. He will be at full health soon after retreating while harassing his foes. There is a reason why Gil-galad and his armies were mostly not able to hurt Sauron. Sure lucky hits do happen, but you have to "take down the build" all at once or else he will keep on coming back like a vampire or lich due to his various abilities.

At ECL 20 / CR 13 your Damage Reduction means almost no attack can bypass it. Roll a 2d6 and only on a 11 you do 1 damage (2 / 36 chances) and 12 you do 2 damages (1 / 36 chances.) Only heroes who are lucky or have magic items like weapons of bane can really have a chance to beat this CR 13 threat. If you are fighting an army of non heroes and thus are massively below CR you will just shrug off the damage and heal, if you are fighting enemies that are close to your CR 13 you can go down real quick for spells can slay you, and damage can bypass your hitpoints real quick.

So yeah this type of build makes sense from lore, for remember those damn humans, elves, even maiar like Gandalf are nowhere near CR 13. They are the definition of e6 type of play.