armor spikes of flying

[Noxangelo]

So late last night after my brain went weird, it went on wild tangents involving armor spikes and the MoF flying weapon ability. this wild rant is part checking the rules, part bouncing ideas off the community. so here goes:

- if you put flying on your armor spikes can you use the armor to fly like iron man?
- if they are on a suit of animated armor, do you now have a single entity that counts as two contructs?
- if the armor spikes are now a construct can they be awakened?
- if they are awakened, how does that work, is each spike part of a hive mind?
- if the armor is also awakened, what then? what if they don't get on?
- what if you are a particularly thick paladin, and now your armor, spikes and horse are all your intellectual superiors?
- if you have bracers of armor and use the optional rules from the A&EG to give it the poison spike special ability from the BoVD, now you have armor spikes even when naked.
- it says poison spike is identical to mundane armor spikes, can you enhance them as well? so you now have a magical item in a magical item with separate bonuses?
- if you give poison spike flying, do you have a construct in a magic item? if you awaken it, do you now have an intelligent construct in a magic item? how does that work?
- what if the bracers of armor are intelegent? you now have an intelegen construct in an intelegent magic item? how does that work? what if they don't get on?

[DrMotives]

You can't put flying on armor spikes, as you can't hold them aloft in one hand.

[Noxangelo]

the magic of Faerun flying special ability has no such requirement that I can see.

[Skum_Overlord]

I ride atop a spiked gold golem, so I'm interested by this!

[Uncle Pine]

So late last night after my brain went weird, it went on wild tangents involving armor spikes and the MoF flying weapon ability. this wild rant is part checking the rules, part bouncing ideas off the community. so here goes:

- if you put flying on your armor spikes can you use the armor to fly like iron man?
No, but you learn how to use Pin Missile:
http://i.imgur.com/B5yAirs.gif
In other words it's your armor spikes that can be treated as an animated object, not your armor:

An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.


- if they are on a suit of animated armor, do you now have a single entity that counts as two contructs?
The flying armor spikes are only treated as a construct while activated. Thus, when they are not active you have a construct wearing a spiked armor and when they are active a construct wearing an armor and a separate flying construct with hardness and hp equal to those of a typical sets of armor spikes.


- if the armor spikes are now a construct can they be awakened?
The Awaken Construct spell can only affect humanoid-shaped constructs. You could however have an intelligent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm) set of armor spikes.


- if they are awakened, how does that work, is each spike part of a hive mind?
No, as according to the flying weapon enchantment, a flying armor spikes set is treated as an animated object. To draw a parallel, think of how Awaken Sand creates a single animated object from a pile of sand instead of a swarm where every grain of sand is a construct in its own right.


- if the armor is also awakened, what then? what if they don't get on?
If an intelligent construct wore flying armor spikes, it would be able to activate them as normal. If the armor spikes were also intelligent and in disagreement, the construct would need to make a Will saving throw to activate them (DC = Ego of the spikes) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm#itemsAgainstCharacters)


- what if you are a particularly thick paladin, and now your armor, spikes and horse are all your intellectual superiors?
Multiclass as a Sorcerer so that you can also get a familiar who is potentially smarter than you.


- if you have bracers of armor and use the optional rules from the A&EG to give it the poison spike special ability from the BoVD, now you have armor spikes even when naked.
Now you can pose as a Cacnea even better!


- it says poison spike is identical to mundane armor spikes, can you enhance them as well? so you now have a magical item in a magical item with separate bonuses?
The way I read it, poison spike is an enchantment that you apply to an armor that already has armor spikes added to it, but doesn't provide spikes to the armor in its own right. So for example, you could have a [+1 poison spike full plate]/[+1 explosive flying armor spikes]. However, my copy of BoVD is not in English, so you may want to wait for additional clarifications on this.
Also note that the "Bracers of Armor and Armor Special Abilities" sidebar in A&EG only mentions armor special abilities, not add-ons like armor spikes. Check with your DM if it's alright to add spikes to your gauntlets and have them count like normal armor spikes.


- if you give poison spike flying, do you have a construct in a magic item? if you awaken it, do you now have an intelligent construct in a magic item? how does that work?
Flying armor spikes (or any flying weapon, really) are already a magic item that counts as a construct. If you manage to give them an Int score (i.e. by making them intelligent weapons) you now have a magic item that counts as a non-mindless construct.


- what if the bracers of armor are intelegent? you now have an intelegen construct in an intelegent magic item? how does that work? what if they don't get on?
See above.

[Noxangelo]

do the magic of faerun flying weapons need to be activated? the entry says nothing about that, it sounds like it is always active.

lol, how would you work out hd for a cloud of flying armor spikes? would they use swarm rules?

didn't realise awaken construct was humanoid only. that sucks. that said using permanent animate objects on intelligent items is the easiest and cheapest way to make intelligent constructs that i know of.

then multiclass as a ranger and awaken your companion and pick up a prestege class that gives additional familiars or animal companions and add rat, cat, dog and bird to that list.

Poison Spike: This special ability is identical to mundane armor spikes except that the spikes retract into hidden compartments in the armor. When they come out in response to a command word, they deal 1d6 points of piercing damage (just as normal armor spikes), and the spikes are coated with a dose of a poison that deals 1d3 points of Strength damage as both initial and secondary damage (Fort DC 16).
that is from my pdf which is identical to my hardcopy. the phrase in bold suggests to me that the special ability provides the armor spikes to the armor, which is why i though of the bracers of armor. not sure if they can be enhanced separately though. i would say yes but i am all for weird and wacky stuff like that.

[Uncle Pine]

do the magic of faerun flying weapons need to be activated? the entry says nothing about that, it sounds like it is always active.
MoF Flying doesn't have a listed duration, but it also doesn't stop you from wielding the weapon normally. Presumably, this means that you can just order a flying weapon to remain motionless and use it as a normal magic weapon. For the purpose of armor spikes, this means you can order them to enter rest mode and stick to your armor.


lol, how would you work out hd for a cloud of flying armor spikes? would they use swarm rules?

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Armor spikes are light weapons, so flying armor spikes for Medium characters are treated as Tiny animated objects (1/2d10 HD). However, you can easily scale this up to Colossal size and 32 HD by making your armor spikes sizing (+5000 GP, MIC p. 43).
As mentioned, flying can only turn a weapon (i.e. a set of armor spikes) into one singular animated object, not several. According to MM, an animated object can gain certain special abilities depending on its form, but not the (swarm) subtype.


didn't realise awaken construct was humanoid only. that sucks. that said using permanent animate objects on intelligent items is the easiest and cheapest way to make intelligent constructs that i know of.
Casting permanency on a single animated object is actually quite expensive at 3,000 xp per object. It also requires a minimum CL of 14 and requires an intelligent item if you want the final result to have an Int score. Way cheaper alternatives exist (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=177). Only some of them are intelligent by default (spider thief (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061009a) probably being the least expensive at 750 gp or 375 gp + 30 xp), but you can apply rudimentary intelligence to the others if you want. At 8,000 gp for Int equal to half your CL (and a minimum CL of 12), it's much more manageable than permanency.


then multiclass as a ranger and awaken your companion and pick up a prestege class that gives additional familiars or animal companions and add rat, cat, dog and bird to that list.
Keep in mind that awakening an animal companion renders it ineligible to act as an animal companion. On the other hand, Arcane Hierophants get intelligent animal companions as a class feature.

[ShurikVch]

then multiclass as a ranger and awaken your companion and pick up a prestege class that gives additional familiars or animal companions and add rat, cat, dog and bird to that list.Minor Servitor spell (Savage Species) is Permanent (D), costs only 250 XP, gives 3d6 Int and 1d3 Cha

[Noxangelo]

i love the sizing armor spikes idea, that is hilarious.

also the minmaxforum link doesn't want to work for me :(

need to check out that minor servitor spell, sounds good.

[Uncle Pine]

also the minmaxforum link doesn't want to work for me :(
I'm not sure why it gives an error, but it was supposed to be a link to the Mechonomicon (a list of things you can build with Craft Construct). I've edited my previous message to redirect to an older version of the list that was posted on Brilliant Gameologist by the same author and it seems to work. It seems posting a direct link to the minmax version doesn't work either, but you can easily google it.

[Troacctid]

Flying armor spikes would still be attached to your armor, which means in order to move, they'd have to drag the armor—and its wearer—along with them. If they lack the carrying capacity to do so...

[Noxangelo]

i did google it. very useful. though flying and permanent animate object are the only ways I know of to make intellegent animate magic items. Though a shrould of the unholy should work on magic items made from dead parts, sculls in particular. still trying to make a slotless hand of glory crawling claw.

[Psyren]

Flying armor spikes would still be attached to your armor, which means in order to move, they'd have to drag the armor—and its wearer—along with them. If they lack the carrying capacity to do so...

This, it's "treated like an animated object." The base stats for those are found in MM pg 13. Size is tricky to come up with but I would put it at Tiny collectively, giving them a base Str of 8 - probably not enough to hoist you and your armor.

[Noxangelo]

sizing is an easy fix for that. need to carry a dragons hoard back to town, install hooks on your armour to tie sacks to and give yourself colossal armour spikes for a strength of 28, and since they are now colossal, they should benefit from the x16 carry capacity to a max of 19200.lbs. more than enough for most dragons hoards.

so if you want the flexability to release your spikes from your armour or reattach them at will. BoVD:
Detaching Axe Blade: Unless two special latches are secured, the head of this battleaxe flies off during the first attack made with it. This trap could be placed on virtually any weapon.