Hit Points Are a Resource. Spend Them.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Hey there. This week's game drove home a minor tactical point that might be useful for new players, so I'm posting it here.


So, you're a squishy caster-type. You know enough to stay behind your party's burly hand-to-hand fighters and let them shield you with their hit points while you bend the laws of physics to your will. Well done. It's been a hard day of adventuring and you just have one little skirmish to wrap up before you take a well-needed break and count up all the copper pieces you've looted.

But now something's gone wrong. Thanks to a lucky hit, your meat-shield ally is reeling back, coughing up blood. It's your turn; you have a split second to act before that goblin finishes her, and then its friend will step over her unconscious body and stab you, and your entire party falls like a chain of dominoes. What do you do?

You pour over your character sheet, looking for something to save the day, but all your resources are either spent or irrelevant. Spell slots: expended. Inventory: a bedroll isn't going to be much help here. Racial feature: irrelevant, or already used.

Hit points: 10/10. Hmm.

Here's what you do: Contribute with your action somehow: toss your cantrip at them or whatever you've got. Then, step out from your cover and insult their lineage. Or their fighting skill. Or heck, even their cooking. Whatever it takes to paint a nice, big target on yourself.

You're hoping that either a) your opponents aren't organized and tactically minded enough to finish off your wounded ally, or b) your DM is looking for an excuse to be merciful. You're hoping they'll target you, instead. Ideally, you're fairly confident that they can't do enough damage to take you down in one round, but even if they do, who's more valuable to the party in the next eight seconds? You, a caster with no more spell slots, or your melee ally who can probably perform at near top effectiveness as long as they're conscious? Either way, you've seen your allies pull some crazy stuff, and you've bought them a round to catch their breath and get your front line back in the fight.

Bottom line: Hit points are a resource. Don't be afraid to spend them wisely rather than hoard them foolishly, or you'll lose them anyway.

[ad_hoc]

So, you're a squishy caster-type. You know enough to stay behind your party's burly hand-to-hand fighters and let them shield you with their hit points while you bend the laws of physics to your will.

Your main point aside, I don't understand how this is a thing in people's 5e games.

It is super easy for enemy creatures to just walk around and attack other PCs.

There is no such thing as a 'front line' because it is a skirmishing game. 1 or 2 PCs ahead of the other ones isn't a line, it's a couple points.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Yeah, you're not wrong. If the opponents are determined to get at your backline, they can.
I think "tanking" is actually easiest at low levels, when there are few exotic movement abilities and an opportunity attack can knock off at least half your hit points.
And, in the case of undisciplined and tactically unwise opponents, a big screaming guy with a sword, getting in their face, is going to be a more attention-grabbing target than the weaselly guy randomly popping out from cover and firing a bow.

[ad_hoc]

Yeah, you're not wrong. If the opponents are determined to get at your backline, they can.
I think "tanking" is actually easiest at low levels, when there are few exotic movement abilities and an opportunity attack can knock off at least half your hit points.
And, in the case of undisciplined and tactically unwise opponents, a big screaming guy with a sword in your face is going to be a more attention-grabbing target than the weaselly guy randomly popping out from cover and firing a bow.

Yeah.

Low levels also feature goblins and orcs.

Goblins like to ambush and attack the weak. Orcs have a bonus action dash. Both are in such numbers that an OA doesn't mean much.

Even goblins understand what magic and bows are too.

And as you say it just gets worse from there.

That said there are cases where it will work out like against zombies and oozes and such. That lets the highly armoured characters shine.

[NecessaryWeevil]

This is true.

[Contrast]

One of my pet peeves is that for the first few levels in particular, there really isn't that much difference between the 'tough' and 'squishy' targets (certainly not one that having rushed to the front for a couple of encounters won't equalise).

I once had a group of people scream at me for being as idiot when my level 2 sorc rushed into melee with three guys. I pointed out as a dragon sorc I had one of the highest ACs and HP in the party and proceeded to take the dodge action.

I find rogues are particularly prone to this sort of behaviour. Just because you can constantly disengage/hide and avoid damage doesn't always mean you should. Someone is still going to be taking that damage and you've just encouraged the enemies to focus fire which is a Bad ThingTM. Sometimes its better to stick around (or even actively jump into melee) so that the damage gets spread around a bit.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Your main point aside, I don't understand how this is a thing in people's 5e games.

It is super easy for enemy creatures to just walk around and attack other PCs.

There is no such thing as a 'front line' because it is a skirmishing game. 1 or 2 PCs ahead of the other ones isn't a line, it's a couple points.

You can make a kind of front line if you target with the metal boxes the important enemies(like the wizard or the drow priest).

Or if your metal box is a big enough danger to be taken down fast(like a crit fishing sorcadin, no intelligent enemy want one in range and if they are in range the enemy want him dead ASAP).



One of my pet peeves is that for the first few levels in particular, there really isn't that much difference between the 'tough' and 'squishy' targets (certainly not one that having rushed to the front for a couple of encounters won't equalise).

I once had a group of people scream at me for being as idiot when my level 2 sorc rushed into melee with three guys. I pointed out as a dragon sorc I had one of the highest ACs and HP in the party and proceeded to take the dodge action.

I find rogues are particularly prone to this sort of behaviour. Just because you can constantly disengage/hide and avoid damage doesn't always mean you should. Someone is still going to be taking that damage and you've just encouraged the enemies to focus fire which is a Bad ThingTM. Sometimes its better to stick around (or even actively jump into melee) so that the damage gets spread around a bit.

I agree.
Some funny fact: In my current party the wizard and the sorcerer are the best and only tanks.
(Holding a concentration spell is great for aggro).

[Bjarkmundur]

I like this

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[Willie the Duck]

Your main point aside, I don't understand how this is a thing in people's 5e games.

It is super easy for enemy creatures to just walk around and attack other PCs.

There is no such thing as a 'front line' because it is a skirmishing game. 1 or 2 PCs ahead of the other ones isn't a line, it's a couple points.

As a general rule, D&D has been fairly sloppy about this. In some of the early editions, it was simply a 'you can't' scenario*. In others, it was clearly the 10' dungeon corridors (you clearly were adventuring in) and the 8-10 henchmen and hirelings you had along to physically blockade your squishy characters. Overall, though, the consequences were usually similar to 5e -- if there was an open route to the back line, and you could weather a bonus attack from every defending fighter in reach, you could just charge up and gank that magic user.
*if they have a front line, your front line hits theirs and can't disengage forward. They can retreat or fight until one side is down. Maybe try missile weapons, but you'll roll randomly with regard to who is targeted.

I think, the answer for 'how this is a thing in people's 5e games,' is mostly gentleperson's agreement (everyone acts as though there is a rules reason why you can't just get past the front line, since in reality getting around someone trying to kill you to get to a goal they are defending is crazy hard). And for those games where it isn't the case, you can get a bunch of people with Sentinel, War Caster/Booming Blade, hirelings, or just build heavily armored mages (through the many ways to do that that 5e has that previous editions had less of).

[Chronos]

Reminds me of the time when my rogue deliberately antagonized some vampire clerics, because 1, he had Uncanny Dodge and Evasion and the paladin didn't, and 2, he knew that in this particular fight, the paladin could do a whole heck of a lot more damage than he could. Oh, and 3, those vampires had previously gone after someone dear to him, and he was pissed.

[Segev]

Your main point aside, I don't understand how this is a thing in people's 5e games.

It is super easy for enemy creatures to just walk around and attack other PCs.

There is no such thing as a 'front line' because it is a skirmishing game. 1 or 2 PCs ahead of the other ones isn't a line, it's a couple points.


Yeah, you're not wrong. If the opponents are determined to get at your backline, they can.
I think "tanking" is actually easiest at low levels, when there are few exotic movement abilities and an opportunity attack can knock off at least half your hit points.
And, in the case of undisciplined and tactically unwise opponents, a big screaming guy with a sword, getting in their face, is going to be a more attention-grabbing target than the weaselly guy randomly popping out from cover and firing a bow.

Just the fact that it's a longer haul to get to the "back line" and that means the "front line" gets more chances to engage you is a discouraging factor. Unintelligent enemies, too, will go for the ones that are easiest to chew on, in the sense that they're right there.

5e has also done a reasonably good job of making the obvious threats the beefiest ones, and giving range enough to the casters that they aren't easily mobbed.

Or maybe my players are just better at spacing themselves out, because when my monsters show up, it would not necessarily help them to charge to the back line; that's just a round they don't get to do any damage at all, and then the front and back lines will both pound on them, possibly downing them, before they get to attack.

Though I will pay more attention to my tactics and see if I'm subconsciously sabotaging them by having smart monsters do dumb things wrt positioning and target choice.

[Xetheral]

Your main point aside, I don't understand how this is a thing in people's 5e games.

It is super easy for enemy creatures to just walk around and attack other PCs.

There is no such thing as a 'front line' because it is a skirmishing game. 1 or 2 PCs ahead of the other ones isn't a line, it's a couple points.

Tanking works best when the DM is roleplaying the enemies as individuals, rather than as a group. Individual enemies concerned with self-preservation will often be hesitant to risk getting surrounded by moving past the tanks up front, even if taking the risk would be tactically superior. Well-disciplined, well-trained, or fanatical enemies are notable exceptions, and the willingness of individuals in those types of groups to sacrifice their own well-being for the good of the group is part of what makes such enemies so dangerous.

When the DM doesn't roleplay enemies as individuals, tanking can still work by ensuring that the tanks are easier to hit than the other party members. Barbarians are fantastic tanks in such games, since Reckless Attack encourages enemies to attack them. Alternatively, liberal use of full cover and/or extended range to the other party members also discourages ignoring the tanks.

For example, if the longbow-wielding rogue is 120 feet away and always ends her turn behind a tree, ranged enemies need to ready attacks to target her (forgoing any Extra Attacks they may have) and melee enemies would need multiple rounds of dashing to reach her. The enemies may decide that focusing fire on the tanks is indeed a tactically superior option.

In any case, the key to tanking is to make the enemy want to attack the tank. In some games that is best accomplished through exploiting the individual enemies' fear of their own mortality. At others, it's through low-AC tanks or careful tactics to ensure that attacking the tanks first is (or appears to be) the best of bad options for the enemy.

[Bjarkmundur]

This thread has given me a lot to think about how I run my combat encounters, and how to respect my players wishes regarding their character's roles in combat. If a player describe his character as "stepping between the ogre and the cleric" I'll be more careful to not ignore his obvious intent of protecting said cleric. If a player however describes his character as "running towards the line of archers" he'll not be focusing on stopping enemies, but rather letting them pass to get behind them.

[ad_hoc]

Tanking works best when the DM is roleplaying the enemies as individuals, rather than as a group. Individual enemies concerned with self-preservation will often be hesitant to risk getting surrounded by moving past the tanks up front, even if taking the risk would be tactically superior. Well-disciplined, well-trained, or fanatical enemies are notable exceptions, and the willingness of individuals in those types of groups to sacrifice their own well-being for the good of the group is part of what makes such enemies so dangerous.

How does a group of 4 characters, with 2 of them trying to hide, surround a large group of enemy creatures?

Creatures don't have to be fanatical to do this, this is standard operating procedure for orcs and goblins.

A lot of creatures that want to attack in melee have movement options that allow them to do that.

Sometimes the tactic will work out, it's just that it will only do so regularly if the DM agrees not to attack the weaker characters. This in turn incentivizes players to ignore the defense of weaker characters because they aren't threatened. I see this notion time and again on this board, particularly when it comes to concentration and making ranged attacks.

I get that this is their play experience. I'm just pointing out that 5e is not set up this way (though obviously can be played that way as people do).

I also think the argument that enemy creatures will attack heavily armoured characters because they both perceive them as bigger threats while also being afraid of them is rather silly. A creature has a much better perceived survival chance fighting the mage who is easy to hit and has disadvantage with their ranged spell attacks. In the course of the battle 1 OA against a group of creatures is just not a big deal and shouldn't be treated as such.

[Tanarii]

1 OA is a huge deal to an orc, goblin, hobgobling, kobold etc.

[Xetheral]

How does a group of 4 characters, with 2 of them trying to hide, surround a large group of enemy creatures?

Creatures don't have to be fanatical to do this, this is standard operating procedure for orcs and goblins.

A lot of creatures that want to attack in melee have movement options that allow them to do that.

Any time an enemy bypasses the tanks to move in between the PCs, they have effectively surrounded themselves. Sure, it's possible that all the PCs will be preoccupied and the daring NPC will be able to freely attack the back-row target of its choice, but it's also possible that enemy simply made themselves a threat, and multiple PCs will focus fire on them. That personal risk discourages individually-roleplayed enemies from bypassing the tanks.

We may use different interpretations of orc and goblin culture in our respective game worlds. In mine, it would be a rare goblin or somewhat-unusual orc brave enough to move in between multiple enemies. Instead, melee goblins and orcs at my table prefer to dogpile opponents that their fellows are already in melee with. This reduces the individual danger to each goblin and orc. By contrast, hobgoblins at my table are much more likely to have pre-planned tactics, follow the orders of their commander even at personal risk to themselves, or be inclined to conspicuous bravery.


Sometimes the tactic will work out, it's just that it will only do so regularly if the DM agrees not to attack the weaker characters. This in turn incentivizes players to ignore the defense of weaker characters because they aren't threatened. I see this notion time and again on this board, particularly when it comes to concentration and making ranged attacks.

I get that this is their play experience. I'm just pointing out that 5e is not set up this way (though obviously can be played that way as people do).

I also think the argument that enemy creatures will attack heavily armoured characters because they both perceive them as bigger threats while also being afraid of them is rather silly. A creature has a much better perceived survival chance fighting the mage who is easy to hit and has disadvantage with their ranged spell attacks. In the course of the battle 1 OA against a group of creatures is just not a big deal and shouldn't be treated as such.

I agree that enemies (particularly ranged ones) having no success at hitting tanks are likely to shift their fire to an easier target. This is why I suggested that tanks draw fire more successfully if they are easier to hit.

[ad_hoc]

1 OA is a huge deal to an orc, goblin, hobgobling, kobold etc.

If they are scared of an attack they should be too afraid to fight in the first place.

[NecessaryWeevil]

If they are scared of an attack they should be too afraid to fight in the first place.

There is a middle ground between "I'm too scared to fight" and "I am completely fearless."

Being in the middle of a group of friends and allies who can share the danger, will shame you if you run, are counting on you, and have a reasonable chance of collectively overwhelming the opposition is very different from being alone and exposed in the middle of hostile forces.

This is how a line of pikemen, for example, will willingly line up and even advance upon the enemy, but rout once they are outflanked or suffer sufficient casualties.

[ad_hoc]

There is a middle ground between "I'm too scared to fight" and "I am completely fearless."

Being in the middle of a group of friends and allies who can share the danger, will shame you if you run, are counting on you, and have a reasonable chance of collectively overwhelming the opposition is very different from being alone and exposed in the middle of hostile forces.

This is how a line of pikemen, for example, will willingly line up and even advance upon the enemy, but rout once they are outflanked or suffer sufficient casualties.

I agree.

That all sounds like a group of orcs to me.

[Tanarii]

If they are scared of an attack they should be too afraid to fight in the first place.
That's a far cry from letting the enemy get extra attack opportunities that can easily be lethal, unless it's clearly justified.

Sometimes it'd make sense to gun for the guys in the back, other times there are better strategies. For example, Grappling a guy and dragging him away from your allies, so your allies can move towards squishier targets.

This is a common tactic for Orcs at low levels IMC, as they're fairly strong. It's also great against Dodging targets since they don't get advantage to defend against it and if it succeeds they are no longer get the benefit of Dodge.

[ad_hoc]

That's a far cry from letting the enemy get extra attack opportunities that can easily be lethal, unless it's clearly justified.

Sometimes it'd make sense to gun for the guys in the back, other times there are better strategies. For example, Grappling a guy and dragging him away from your allies, so your allies can move towards squishier targets.

This is a common tactic for Orcs at low levels IMC, as they're fairly strong. It's also great against Dodging targets since they don't get advantage to defend against it and if it succeeds they are no longer get the benefit of Dodge.

It makes more sense than flailing at an enemy you can't hurt while getting blasted and shot at by their allies.

This is why people think the game is too easy.

If the players are able to dictate the terms of combat then they aren't going to be challenged. I've never seen players at my table get worked up over zombies because they are able to easily manage the combat. They are terrified of orcs though with their bonus dash.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Hit points are an area of effect spell, change my mind

[Fable Wright]

You pour over your character sheet, looking for something to save the day, but all your resources are either spent or irrelevant. Spell slots: expended. Inventory: a bedroll isn't going to be much help here. Racial feature: irrelevant, or already used.

Mold Earth: Make a small earthwork over the top of the melee type, protecting him from attacks via 5' of dirt.
Shape Water: The blood pouring from the wounds flows upwards like a snake, looking like a magic water elemental and a threat that's not the downed fighter.
Minor Illusion: The sound of the boss saying "What're you standing around for? There's more of 'em still standing!"
Unseen Servant ritual which should still be up right now: Grab that plank of wood and drag it over him for total cover!
Prestidigitation: Conjure a severed goblin head in your hand, mock the goblins to their face with it, and retreat, so that the goblins need to Dash to get to you, rather than just stabbing you.
Find Familiar: Have a bird fly in their faces, screeching loudly and Dodging.
Tenser's Floating Disk: Take the Disengage action and run past the goblins so that the 3' disk of impenetrable force is hovering over your fighter, where the goblins will have severe difficulty stabbing him. Also insult them.



Hit points: 10/10. Hmm.

Instead of one downed party member, we could have two.
Why lock yourself in a room with one angry badger, when you could lock yourself in a room with two angry badgers?

Liberating thoughts, really.


Bottom line: Hit points are a resource. Don't be afraid to spend them wisely rather than hoard them foolishly, or you'll lose them anyway.

I do not disagree. I will just say that I do not believe 'wisely' is the term I'd use for this situation. Running overtop the fighter and at least taking the Dodge action has a slightly lower chance of killing you off for the fighter's fleeting (and uncertain) tactical advantage, but it's still not great.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I agree, with a small caveat that I'll get into. I play a Redemption Paladin in my home games and Hit Points are second only to Smite Slots my most valuable resource. If I'm not actively in front taking an attack or using my reaction to take the damage of an ally I could be doing more. With an (honestly) ridiculous level of durability at 22 AC, a pool of 179 hit points and 21 thp from Inspiring Leader I am well poised to be taking hits through several fights with nothing more than a short rest or even just a topping off with Lay on Hands.

With that said, taking this mentality as the only truth is not a great idea. It's important to understand that only your last hit point is truly indispensable but treating your hit points as expendable until you edge within your own "safe zone" of that number is dangerous. It's a bit metagamey (in the sense that your character wouldn't see the associated numbers, they would definitely be able to gauge the threat) but you really need to pay attention to the potential damage of your enemies.

In this example, that 10hp Wizard is a barely functional meat sponge. In the event that it's only one goblin, you're better off not endangering yourself and simply killing it, stabilizing your fighter and running away to find a place to rest. In the event that it's 2+ goblin (which seems more likely) putting a target on your back is suicide, average damage from just 2 is enough to knock you out as well and if there are 3 you're guaranteed death barring astronomical luck.

In short, I agree that hit points are a resource but understanding when they can be used vs thrown away is a skill that needs to be learned in tandem or only slightly afterwards or else you're going to have a noble hearted but frequently abused character who comes off more as a hindrance than a help. Or just a dead adventurer.

[NecessaryWeevil]

(Lots of suggestions for cantrip use and dodging)

These are great suggestions for making the best use of one's action, which I did encourage our hypothetical caster to do first.

[BW022]

Bottom line: Hit points are a resource. Don't be afraid to spend them wisely rather than hoard them foolishly, or you'll lose them anyway.

Hit points are a resource, but they are unlike other resources. When other resources (spells, arrows, oil flasks, actions, class abilities, etc.) run out, you can still do something else. When hit points run out... you immediately loose all your other resources (because you are unconscious), risk death, and typically force an ally to give up their resources for at least a round (i.e. heal you).

IMO, hit points are like an insurance fund. You can spend from it, but its the last thing you ever specifically want to risk. In almost all cases, you should spend everything else first if you can.


Here's what you do: Contribute with your action somehow: toss your cantrip at them or whatever you've got. Then, step out from your cover and insult their lineage. Or their fighting skill. Or heck, even their cooking. Whatever it takes to paint a nice, big target on yourself.

Other actions would that would probably better...
1. Help action. Make the fighter really difficult to hit. After a couple of rounds, they may switch to you, but that is several rounds for the fighter to heal up and/or do damage. (Cost, your action rather than your fighters hit points)
2. Fight defensively and yell insults. Buy the fighter time attack or heal while not risking your hit points. (Cost, your action rather than your hit points)
3. Say out of reach, fire bolt, and ask the fighter to do fight defensively. (Cost, his action rather than your hit points)
4. Take a potion or item out of the fighter's backpack and then pour it down their throat and/or use it. (Cost, his inventory and your action vs. anyone's hit points)

About the only time I can see exposing yourself to damage is when everyone is out of actions (i.e. everyone else has dropped), you have no major inventory items, and it is necessary to take hit point for a chance of dropping them. That really is a no choice option.

[Dalebert]

Reminds me of the time when my rogue deliberately antagonized some vampire clerics, because 1, he had Uncanny Dodge and Evasion and the paladin didn't, and 2, he knew that in this particular fight, the paladin could do a whole heck of a lot more damage than he could. Oh, and 3, those vampires had previously gone after someone dear to him, and he was pissed.

Similarly, my necromancer has been known to share some heat when certain undead are involved; even try to pull attackers off the tanks. Necrotic Resistance and max HP can't be lowered, plus he can heal himself by killing things. I've often remarked how it's a little frustrating to be at full HP all the time because the self-healing feature rarely gets used.

[redwizard007]

The number of times I have seen parties struggle through an encounter because only the traditional tank classes were prepared to take a hit are only exceeded by the number of times I have seen them struggle because squishy classes got too close to melee.
I like the idea of HP being seen as a resource, but it is a precious one and must be treated as such.

[Willie the Duck]

The number of times I have seen parties struggle through an encounter because only the traditional tank classes were prepared to take a hit are only exceeded by the number of times I have seen them struggle because squishy classes got too close to melee.
I like the idea of HP being seen as a resource, but it is a precious one and must be treated as such.

This is a pretty good summation.

I agree with the OP's premise from a 'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds'-level -- I have seen parties lose characters (or even the entire party) because the wizards acted too much like a complete coward, and let a down/paralyzed ally get killed. However, in general, a standard wizard is too squishy to really use their limited HP as a resource. However, if the party is finding it hard to succeed, one good option is for the wizard to take the steps necessary to become less squishy (of which 5e has plenty of avenues towards that goal).