[3.5] Hexblade Gestalt

[Thurbane]

So, if you were running a Hexblade (as written in CW), and you were allowed a "free" gestalt of a Tier 5 or 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568771-Retiering-the-Classes-A-new-home) class (i.e. you played alongside non-gestalt party members), what class would you chose, and why?

Cheers - T

[Asmotherion]

i suppose Marshal to profit from High Cha.

[EndlessKng]

Marshall could work, I agree. You also may wish to look at the Mountebank - it has several abilities that work off of charisma as well for a more "face" type character, with some serious flavor that pairs well with the Hexblade. Dragon Shaman can also be really powerful - the healing aura on that can save a party outright.

Here is a question - why are you choosing Hexblade, and what do you want to get out of that class, the character, and the side class?

[Thurbane]

Here is a question - why are you choosing Hexblade, and what do you want to get out of that class, the character, and the side class?

TBH, more of a thought experiment than anything else...

[Mr Adventurer]

I like the idea of Knight for that Charisma synergy, but Marshal is almost definitely better for this purpose.

EDIT: Expert actually wouldn't be too bad. 6 skill points, skills of your choice, and good Reflex.

[animewatcha]

Depending upon campaign and such, but knight might work with penalty to saves vs taunting and then make nerf their ability to get away from you.

Divine mind - depending upon sources available, but corrruption and madness mantle can make it difficult for 'nearby' caster if you can get some nerfage in. Potentially, combine with consumption mantle depending upon interpretation on power-point to spell slot. I would see it as leeching the lower level spell slots. May not seem like much use, but less spell slots available the better.

[Karl Aegis]

Either Knight for easier access to Improved Mounted Archery or Truenamer so you can be a Truenamer with a better chassis. Really, Hexblade only uses your 6th level feat slot for Improved Familiar so you have the rest of your build free to mess around with.

[Ryton]

Just because I'm a fan of it, I'd probably go OA Samurai, maybe into Iaijutsu Master. Gives an ideal (read customizable) weapon, some interesting synergy, though it also benefits from being MAD , so it may depend on your ability scores.

[pabelfly]

Do you get the designer's unofficial fixes to Hexblade?

http://irongamersguild.wikidot.com/forum/t-248314/unofficial-fix-for-hexblades-from-an-official-source

[Thurbane]

Do you get the designer's unofficial fixes to Hexblade?

http://irongamersguild.wikidot.com/forum/t-248314/unofficial-fix-for-hexblades-from-an-official-source

No, that's why I specifically said "as written in CW"...

[thethird]

An oriental adventures samurai might also be interesting if you aren't all that interested in charisma. You will basically be a fighter, with the martial customization that that entails, with some extra stuff.

[Gnaeus]

Divine mind - depending upon sources available, but corrruption and madness mantle can make it difficult for 'nearby' caster if you can get some nerfage in. Potentially, combine with consumption mantle depending upon interpretation on power-point to spell slot. I would see it as leeching the lower level spell slots. May not seem like much use, but less spell slots available the better.

Second Divine Mind. Cha to saves on a cha based class is good. Cha to saves on a cha based class that has a stacking ability to add cha to saves v. Spells and mettle is better. I prefer freedom mantle for movement and move+full attack powers, followed by time for initiative and reflex saves. Be like a paladin but better.

[Zaq]

Mountebank, from Dragon Compendium. Gives skills, gives utility, keeps CHA synergy, feels thematic, and still somehow sucks enough to be an appropriately low tier.

[Piggy Knowles]

I agree with all the previous posters that knight and mountebank have some decent synergy with hexblade. If those aren't to your taste, battle dancer or monk with Ascetic Mage would give you better skills, Charisma to AC and a bunch of other minor bonuses (most notably lots of feats for the monk).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Battle Dancer is Cha-based, if you want to go with an unarmored/unarmed build, plus it could have some great flavor.

OA Samurai is a decent choice, it basically gets Ancestral Relic for free for two weapons and bonus feats like a Fighter, plus four base skill points/level. Again, this could have some amazing flavor (think Darth Vader as a samurai).

Dragon Shaman could also work well, and as above the flavor should work out great.

Even Soulknife (possibly into Soulbow?) can do well with this, and keep in mind that the mind blade enhancement is added to your BAB so you'll get iterative attacks sooner.

Magewright can work well, despite being Int-based. Start out with Int 14, and have a +6 item by the time you'll get 5th level spells for the bonus slots (Edit: or go Illumian with Aeshkrau). Use it for utility and powering Arcane Strike.

In any case, get an Eternal Wand of Hound of Doom, it will make a powerful companion that scales with your level (any Cha-based character with a decent BAB who can cast arcane spells can make use of one of these).

[Troacctid]

Either marshal or monk. They're the two most powerful classes in the tier IMO (I voted for marshal to be T4) and they both have synergy with hexblade. Divine mind is good too.

[liquidformat]

The issue I have with going Marshal is it really is a 2 level class, you really doing get anything useful after that. Battle Dancer is an interesting choice giving Cha to AC but all together not a particularly good class. To be honest I think going evil paladin is probably your best choice here, just go straight up A game paladin of tyranny. It works very well thematically and mechanically.

[Gnaeus]

The issue I have with going Marshal is it really is a 2 level class, you really doing get anything useful after that. Battle Dancer is an interesting choice giving Cha to AC but all together not a particularly good class. To be honest I think going evil paladin is probably your best choice here, just go straight up A game paladin of tyranny. It works very well thematically and mechanically.

I would agree but op linked the new tier list under which Paladin is T4. If it is being treated as T5 as per the original tier list it is a bit better than divine mind.

[liquidformat]

I would agree but op linked the new tier list under which Paladin is T4. If it is being treated as T5 as per the original tier list it is a bit better than divine mind.

ah missed that good catch. Then I would probably switch this around and take hexblade as the 'side' that can't be multiclassed and then start out as martial and go from there, I find blade dancer to work strangely well with hexblade...

[Mr Adventurer]

'side' that can't be multiclassed

This is not a part of normal gestalt rules, IIRC

[liquidformat]

This is not a part of normal gestalt rules, IIRC

It is normally a part of the rules when 'powering up' a tier 5 class... And if we are allowed to multiclass as we want as long as we use tier 5&6 classes and prcs that really makes it a dramatically different goal post than choose a class to boaster a side of gestalt.

[Mr Adventurer]

It is normally a part of the rules when 'powering up' a tier 5 class...

I've never heard of it, so I don't think that is true.

I'm afraid I don't understand the rest of your post, since the OP never mentioned either such objective.

[Mato]

So, if you were running a Hexblade ... what class would you chose, and why?Probably monk.

The monk offers bonus feats, evasion, the best weapon in the game, better fortitude to fuel mettle, and shadow blend. And on the flip side hexblade "fixes" flurry of blows with full BAB and the basic spellcasting can be extended out with knowstones and such to pick the necessitates.

[Troacctid]

The issue I have with going Marshal is it really is a 2 level class, you really doing get anything useful after that.
At higher levels you go from adding your Charisma to your favorite thing to adding your Charisma to basically everything everyone in the party does ever. It's a nontrivial amount of added versatility.

Like, just off the bat, it's pretty great to be able to have Motivate Dexterity or Motivate Wisdom on all the time for initiative or perception, switch to Art of War or Master of Tactics after the first round, and still have Motivate Charisma and Motivate Intelligence for noncombat usage.

[Piggy Knowles]

I've never heard of it, so I don't think that is true.

I'm afraid I don't understand the rest of your post, since the OP never mentioned either such objective.

Well, to be fair, the OP said it's a non gestalt game and he is only being offered the change to gestalt with CW hexblade. So presumably, if he multiclasses out of hexblade, that no longer applies.

[Bphill561]

Well, to be fair, the OP said it's a non gestalt game and he is only being offered the change to gestalt with CW hexblade. So presumably, if he multiclasses out of hexblade, that no longer applies.

Not exactly. He is running running a hexblade with a free high tier gestalt. Never said if hexblade or a tier 5 selection set off the gestalt option (or something else entirely). Also no comment on prestige class allowance.

So without clarification, I would really want to run Marshal 7/ divine crusader 10// Hexblade 17. Marshal for previously mentioned auras and divine crusader for spelling casting up to 9th level off of one domain list. Spell casting is Cha based and you get some higher levels spells without being too low tier. I always thought the force domain would be fun with the force needle reserve feat. Kind of like a warlock for all day abilities with some higher level spells thrown in. But depends on the rules, and of course more prestige classes could be thrown in, but trying to keep it simple.

I built a hexblade divine crusader for a game that did not allow any base classes from the players handbook (wierd rules set). It worked pretty good for the power level of the game.

[Mato]

The issue I have with going Marshal is it really is a 2 level class, you really doing get anything useful after that.At higher levels you go from adding your Charisma to your favorite thing to adding your Charisma to basically everything everyone in the party does ever. It's a nontrivial amount of added versatility.Well it has diminishing returns. Like at level three you are not selecting your favorite thing, you did that at level one, you are selecting your second favorite. And as you explained the auras are mutually exclusive; You have to choose one or the other. For example not quite related to the thread, a crusader with slippers of battle dancing is replicating a self-only version of force of will, master of tactics, over the top, and a greater version of motivate attack simultaneously so he has no interest in any of those auras.

Anyway, when I tried to assemble that quote I seen you mention divine mind. I have no idea who thinks that is a 5th tier class, but being able to access creation/fabricate & flight/fom is pretty nice and power point tricks with the time mantle also breaks the action economy.

[Gnaeus]

At higher levels you go from adding your Charisma to your favorite thing to adding your Charisma to basically everything everyone in the party does ever. It's a nontrivial amount of added versatility.

Like, just off the bat, it's pretty great to be able to have Motivate Dexterity or Motivate Wisdom on all the time for initiative or perception, switch to Art of War or Master of Tactics after the first round, and still have Motivate Charisma and Motivate Intelligence for noncombat usage.

I feel like this undervalues the Divine Mind aura by a fair bit.

Let’s look at level 10. Assume 18 cha (it’s a main stat but MAD issues)
Marshal gives +4 initiative (Motivate Dexterity)
Master of tactics gives +4 damage when flanking only or +4 on a single save (but only one, we only have 1 minor aura left)
Motivate Attack and care give +2 to either melee attacks or ac, not both.
And a couple of non combat auras

Divine mind aura gives all at once
+3 attack (melee and ranged), +3 damage (melee and ranged) +3 AC, +2 initiative, +1 reflex save (Time mantle)

Combat wise, I’d say that’s at least competitive, likely better, especially because that’s just the aura. The DM is also adding +4 to all 3 of his own saves, +2 more to his own initiative, and manifesting important combat powers like Dimension Hop (to teleport past barriers or save people from grapples) and Hustle (move and full attack).

+4 on the wizards knowledge checks and your social checks is nice. It’s certainly a non 0 advantage. In the unlikely event that your DM uses RAW diplomacy it’s huge. But DD//Hexblade can actually solve basic melee functionality issues that Marshal//Hexblade can’t.

[Troacctid]

I feel like this undervalues the Divine Mind aura by a fair bit.

Let’s look at level 10. Assume 18 cha (it’s a main stat but MAD issues)
Marshal gives +4 initiative (Motivate Dexterity)
Master of tactics gives +4 damage when flanking only or +4 on a single save (but only one, we only have 1 minor aura left)
Motivate Attack and care give +2 to either melee attacks or ac, not both.
And a couple of non combat auras

Divine mind aura gives all at once
+3 attack (melee and ranged), +3 damage (melee and ranged) +3 AC, +2 initiative, +1 reflex save (Time mantle)

Combat wise, I’d say that’s at least competitive, likely better, especially because that’s just the aura. The DM is also adding +4 to all 3 of his own saves, +2 more to his own initiative, and manifesting important combat powers like Dimension Hop (to teleport past barriers or save people from grapples) and Hustle (move and full attack).

+4 on the wizards knowledge checks and your social checks is nice. It’s certainly a non 0 advantage. In the unlikely event that your DM uses RAW diplomacy it’s huge. But DD//Hexblade can actually solve basic melee functionality issues that Marshal//Hexblade can’t.
Marshal is better in the early game and can actually do things out of combat, including being one of the best party faces around. Don't look at it as just a fighter—it's also a skillmonkey. (Also, marshal auras have a 60 ft. range and give untyped bonuses.)

[Gnaeus]

Marshal is better in the early game and can actually do things out of combat, including being one of the best party faces around. Don't look at it as just a fighter—it's also a skillmonkey. (Also, marshal auras have a 60 ft. range and give untyped bonuses.)

Marshal is a good party face.

Is it really better in the early game though? If 10 is too high for Marshal to compete, how about 5?

Let’s assume 15 charisma at 5. Again, we have MAD.
Marshal gives +2 initiative (Motivate Dexterity)
+2 damage when flanking
+1 To hit (range or melee not both)

And +2 on either Cha or Int out of combat. Probably Cha.

DM gives +2 initiative (Time mantle) (15 foot range)
+2 to hit and damage, range or melee
+1 reflex save.
(As well as +2 more initiative for himself and +2 on all his own saves, and is beginning to manifest powers.)

Yes, the Marshal has a better range. That isn’t nothing. But the DM is still probably getting every ally in a dungeon room, and giving better bonuses. If DM is better 10+, and Marshal has an advantage 2-4.....

[Zaq]

Marshal is a good party face.

Is it really better in the early game though? If 10 is too high for Marshal to compete, how about 5?

Let’s assume 15 charisma at 5. Again, we have MAD.
Marshal gives +2 initiative (Motivate Dexterity)
+2 damage when flanking
+1 To hit (range or melee not both)

And +2 on either Cha or Int out of combat. Probably Cha.

DM gives +2 initiative (Time mantle) (15 foot range)
+2 to hit and damage, range or melee
+1 reflex save.
(As well as +2 more initiative for himself and +2 on all his own saves, and is beginning to manifest powers.)

Yes, the Marshal has a better range. That isn’t nothing. But the DM is still probably getting every ally in a dungeon room, and giving better bonuses. If DM is better 10+, and Marshal has an advantage 2-4.....

DM makes MAD worse. Divine grace is its only CHA-based ability. The powers are WIS-based for some stupid reason.

[Gnaeus]

DM makes MAD worse. Divine grace is its only CHA-based ability. The powers are WIS-based for some stupid reason.

But not enough for me to care much. And that not until mid/high level. A 12 or 13 starting stat will get me to Hustle. It isn’t like I care about my save DCs.

[Troacctid]

Marshal is a good party face.

Is it really better in the early game though? If 10 is too high for Marshal to compete, how about 5?

Let’s assume 15 charisma at 5. Again, we have MAD.
Marshal gives +2 initiative (Motivate Dexterity)
+2 damage when flanking
+1 To hit (range or melee not both)
You didn't put Charisma as your highest stat? No, no, no. You either put 16 in both Cha and Str or you put 18 in Cha and 14 in Str. With a low point buy or elite array, you can put a 15 in Cha, but you'll always boost it to 16 at level 4.


DM gives +2 initiative (Time mantle) (15 foot range)
+2 to hit and damage, range or melee
+1 reflex save.
(As well as +2 more initiative for himself and +2 on all his own saves, and is beginning to manifest powers.)

Yes, the Marshal has a better range. That isn’t nothing. But the DM is still probably getting every ally in a dungeon room, and giving better bonuses. If DM is better 10+, and Marshal has an advantage 2-4.....
Okay, first off, you get one aura, and you can't switch between them as a swift action until some ridiculously high level. So, just attack and damage, no initiative. Second, any divine mind worth their salt should have the ectopic adept ACF, so that's only a 10 ft. radius, which is not a lot; it might as well only be to melee attacks.

And thirdly, even if you're marginally better in combat, you're severely underrating the power of the Marshal's +23 to Diplomacy.

[Zaq]

But not enough for me to care much. And that not until mid/high level. A 12 or 13 starting stat will get me to Hustle. It isn’t like I care about my save DCs.

When you already care about STR for melee (you don’t have enough magical juice to not care about basic attacks), CON for surviving (melee? You want CON), CHA for hexblade stuff, and probably DEX because hexblades can only cast in light armor for some reason, a 12-13 starting WIS is not a trivial cost. And it’s more for PP than for save DCs, though simply qualifying for the powers is also relevant. I guess maybe you can find a way to use DM’s heavy armor proficiency without shafting your HB casting, but it’ll cost you something.

Not saying it’s impossible, but it does indeed make MAD worse. Same reason I didn’t suggest monk even though monk is a reasonably interesting gestalt match for a debuffing melee dude—the stats just plain get ugly without some kind of noticeable workaround.

[Mato]

DM makes MAD worse.In min/max optimization if your character isn't a primary caster you tend to forgo save-or-suck/die effects so you do not have to maximize a casting attribute. A divine mind can actually start with a 10 in wisdom and just use a periapt of wisdom for power access.

And that's a very very very VERY tiny complaint to have about a class that basically hands you celerity & time stop while giving you marshal-like auras that are not dependent on charisma.

Edit - You can even replace divine grace with turn undead and when the DM asks why you didn't invest in a lot of charisma for your forced-hexblade-half just show them your rebuked zombie hydra pets and how a cloak of charisma does the same thing for the hexblade's terrible list of spells.

Edit 2 - Speaking of dragon magic, if the hexblade//DM is dragon-blooded it can acquire one of the greater auras a marshal has access to as a feat. Like Troacctid thinks you can learn class features from another book because they have the same name, so why not a limited version of infinite healing?

[Troacctid]

I would use the dragonscale husk ACF. That energy resistance is legit if you're single-classing anyway. It doesn't have arcane spell failure, right?

Also, speaking of Dragon Magic, I like the fast healing draconic aura as my first major aura, FWIW. Very good in the early game.

[Mr Adventurer]

I would use the dragonscale husk ACF. That energy resistance is legit if you're single-classing anyway. It doesn't have arcane spell failure, right?

Also, speaking of Dragon Magic, I like the fast healing draconic aura as my first major aura, FWIW. Very good in the early game.

There isn't a Fast Healing aura listed in Dragon Magic.

There's one listed in the Dragon Shaman class in the PHB2, but no indication (as far as I know) that you can select from the Dragon Shaman auras.

[Troacctid]

Edit - You can even replace divine grace with turn undead and when the DM asks why you didn't invest in a lot of charisma for your forced-hexblade-half just show them your rebuked zombie hydra pets and how a cloak of charisma does the same thing for the hexblade's terrible list of spells.
Is turning not Charisma-based?


Edit 2 - Speaking of dragon magic, if the hexblade//DM is dragon-blooded it can acquire one of the greater auras a marshal has access to as a feat. Like Troacctid thinks you can learn class features from another book because they have the same name, so why not a limited version of infinite healing?
Marshals can explicitly learn draconic auras in place of major auras.

[Piggy Knowles]

Same reason I didn’t suggest monk even though monk is a reasonably interesting gestalt match for a debuffing melee dude—the stats just plain get ugly without some kind of noticeable workaround.

It won't fully alleviate MAD and you'd have to wait until your level 9 feat to take it, but if you're starting on the later side, Ascetic Mage will help a bit with MAD by switching Wis to Cha.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I guess maybe you can find a way to use DM’s heavy armor proficiency without shafting your HB casting, but it’ll cost you something.

I like Dragonscale Husk for this. Scaling armor (starting at +6) and other benefits, 0% Arcane Failure Chance. Technically stacks with AC boosting items, like Bracers of Armor.

You could start with a dragontouched race, or take Dragonborn for a bonus to Con.

[Mato]

Is turning not Charisma-based?It's charisma-enhanced. With an 8 in charisma you can still use it, have up to level+3 check, roll more than your level in damage, your target limit remains unchanged at 1/2 your level, and you total hit dice cap still remains unchanged at your level too. So for the purposes of commanding undead, like the hydras I mentioned, you don't really need charisma. Charisma is used when the number of turns matter, like with travel devotion or divine metamagic.


Marshals can explicitly learn draconic auras in place of major auras.Actually the "marshal (a class presented in Miniatures Handbook) can learn any of the draconic auras presented here in place of a major aura." doesn't include any class features named "draconic aura" presented somewhere else. But I'm glad you think it explicitly - which means in a clear and detailed manner that leaves no room for confusion or doubt. - says you can. So if you have any complaints a divine mind taking feat somehow doesn't qualify - even through without the parentheses it at least says "when you select this feat, choose a draconic aura." - please talk to Troacctid about his internal logic. :smallsmile:


You could start with a dragontouched race, or take Dragonborn for a bonus to Con.The husk also gives resist 20 to four energy types and Dragonborn(wings) also gives you a dive attack allowing you to deal double damage on a charge with piercing weapons.

[Troacctid]

It's charisma-enhanced. With an 8 in charisma you can still use it, have up to level+3 check, roll more than your level in damage, your target limit remains unchanged at 1/2 your level, and you total hit dice cap still remains unchanged at your level too. So for the purposes of commanding undead, like the hydras I mentioned, you don't really need charisma. Charisma is used when the number of turns matter, like with travel devotion or divine metamagic.
Hmm. I guess you're right. Although I think the ACF only gives turning, not rebuking.


Actually the "marshal (a class presented in Miniatures Handbook) can learn any of the draconic auras presented here in place of a major aura." doesn't include any class features named "draconic aura" presented somewhere else. But I'm glad you think it explicitly - which means in a clear and detailed manner that leaves no room for confusion or doubt. - says you can. So if you have any complaints a divine mind taking feat somehow doesn't qualify - even through without the parentheses it at least says "when you select this feat, choose a draconic aura." - please talk to Troacctid about his internal logic. :smallsmile:
Could you explain to me how the passage you quoted isn't giving marshals explicit access to draconic auras? I also don't get how you went from there to "Divine minds can get major auras with the Draconic Aura feat!" Major auras are not draconic auras, so, no, they can't. Also, I'm happy enough talking about my own internal logic, but I can't answer questions about someone else's, so if you have questions for whoever this "he" is referring to, I suggest you direct them to him, not me.

[Mato]

Hmm. I guess you're right. Although I think the ACF only gives turning, not rebuking.Deathless hydras are still better than a fighter.


Could you explain to me how the passage you quoted isn't giving marshals explicit access to draconic auras?Sure (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24086946&postcount=41).

[Troacctid]

Sure (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24086946&postcount=41).
Then by all means, please do.

[Mato]

Then by all means, please do.Wait, you're being serious aren't you? :smallconfused:

Well take it slow and step by step. So first up is the usage of quotations and italicized font is meant to indicate that it is quote from a rule book, ie DM86, which you would have realized & confirmed had you referenced the entry you are trying to discuss yourself.

Actually the "marshal (a class presented in Miniatures Handbook) can learn any of the draconic auras presented here in place of a major aura."
The text is quite clear that the marshal can learn auras presented in Dragon Magic. It doesn't say is that the marshal can learn auras from anywhere or presented in other sources, such as the Player's Handbook II. Which as a courteous fyi, is what the dragon shamen is presented in. This is also why I felt the urge to explain what the word "explicitly" means. Because nothing in the marshal's entry even hints to what you are trying to claim is a possibility.

And then I pointed out the situation for you. The feat (with parentheses) says "When you select this feat, choose a draconic aura (see page 86).". So technically the feat doesn't directly try to actually limit sources like the marshal entry does, it just uses parentheses notation to direct you to the auras in DM. So humorously, if anyone had a point in a debate accessing the vigor aura it'd be the guy that used the feat and not the guy trying to use the marshal. So by all means, feel free to continue talking to me about how you can't use the feat to access the shaman's auras either. I happen to fully support that interpretation. :smallsmile:

[Dimers]

In a long-term gestalt build, I like bloodline levels, since they make one side more powerful. AFAIK, "bloodline" hasn't been tiered. But it seems to me it'd rank pretty low since it gives no hp, BAB, saves or new abilities.

[Troacctid]

Wait, you're being serious aren't you? :smallconfused:

Well take it slow and step by step. So first up is the usage of quotations and italicized font is meant to indicate that it is quote from a rule book, ie DM86, which you would have realized & confirmed had you referenced the entry you are trying to discuss yourself.

The text is quite clear that the marshal can learn auras presented in Dragon Magic. It doesn't say is that the marshal can learn auras from anywhere or presented in other sources, such as the Player's Handbook II. Which as a courteous fyi, is what the dragon shamen is presented in. This is also why I felt the urge to explain what the word "explicitly" means. Because nothing in the marshal's entry even hints to what you are trying to claim is a possibility.

And then I pointed out the situation for you. The feat (with parentheses) says "When you select this feat, choose a draconic aura (see page 86).". So technically the feat doesn't directly try to actually limit sources like the marshal entry does, it just uses parentheses notation to direct you to the auras in DM. So humorously, if anyone had a point in a debate accessing the vigor aura it'd be the guy that used the feat and not the guy trying to use the marshal. So by all means, feel free to continue talking to me about how you can't use the feat to access the shaman's auras either. I happen to fully support that interpretation. :smallsmile:
What I said was that marshals can explicitly learn draconic auras in place of major auras. How does this passage not explicitly give marshals the ability to learn draconic auras in place of major auras?

Here's what I think happened. I think I posted my opinion that the fast healing aura would be a good choice for a 2nd level marshal. Mr. Adventurer posted a valid critique of my reading of the rules based on a close reading of RAW. Meanwhile, you made your own post suggesting that if marshals can learn draconic auras, the same logic would allow anyone to learn the marshal's major auras as if they were draconic auras. Of course this is quite spurious if you are aware of the rules in Dragon Magic, so I pointed out the passage that I assumed you had missed, but you thought I was responding to the other comment, not yours, thus changing the context of the statement and perpetuating a rhetorical misunderstanding. And this is how you ended up quoting a passage that explicitly allows marshals to learn at least some draconic auras while arguing that marshals cannot explicitly learn any draconic auras whatsoever.

For the record, the Draconic Aura feat absolutely allows you to select dragon shaman auras, as it allows you to choose any draconic aura, and dragon shaman auras are very explicitly draconic auras (and if you still care to condescendingly define terms at me, I'll happily quote chapter and verse to support this). Some of those auras won't actually do anything, because they key off of a totem dragon that is undefined for anyone other than a dragon shaman, but they are valid choices for the feat. Mr. Adventurer is correct that the language for the marshal is different and, by a strict reading, would only allow you to choose draconic auras from the same chapter; it's not my personal reading, but I acknowledge it as a valid one.

[Mato]

Here's what I think happened.This is a forum, everyone can see what happened.



Also, speaking of Dragon Magic, I like the fast healing draconic aura as my first major aura, FWIW. Very good in the early game.

Edit - You can even replace divine grace with turn undead and when the DM asks why you didn't invest in a lot of charisma for your forced-hexblade-half just show them your rebuked zombie hydra pets and how a cloak of charisma does the same thing for the hexblade's terrible list of spells.

Edit 2 - Speaking of dragon magic, if the hexblade//DM is dragon-blooded it can acquire one of the greater auras a marshal has access to as a feat. Like Troacctid thinks you can learn class features from another book because they have the same name, so why not a limited version of infinite healing?
As we can see, while worded to show my distaste for ignoring the rules, this edit has the divine mind making usage of Troacctid's abuse instead of fully condemning it.

Is turning not Charisma-based?
Marshals can explicitly learn draconic auras in place of major auras.
Which he had a problem with.

It's charisma-enhanced.
Actually the "marshal (a class presented in Miniatures Handbook) can learn any of the draconic auras presented here in place of a major aura." doesn't include any class features named "draconic aura" presented somewhere else.And so I explained. Which as you can does agree that a marshal can learn auras in DM, but not the vigor aura in the PHBII that we were discussing.

Could you explain to me how the passage you quoted isn't giving marshals explicit access to draconic auras? I also don't get how you went from there to "Divine minds can get major auras with the Draconic Aura feat!" Major auras are not draconic auras, so, no, they can't.

Sure (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24086946&postcount=41).
And this is where things go sideways. He repeats the strawman like his missed the differential in sources which is not a big deal if it was a mistake. But everything mentioned has been about draconic auras, specifically the vigor aura out of the PHBII, and out of no where he flips things into arguing the divine mind cannot learn a marshal's major auras like he has a different agenda or something. Instead of engaging with it I simply repeated my self.

Then by all means, please do.

Wait, you're being serious aren't you? :smallconfused:
And then again, in more detail.

And after all of that, he moves to damage control while still saying this

For the record, the Draconic Aura feat absolutely allows you to select dragon shaman auras, as it allows you to choose any draconic aura
About this

The marshal (a class presented in Miniatures Handbook) can learn any of the draconic auras presented here in place of a major aura.But whatevs.

And for the record.

The dragon shaman class in Player's Handbook II introduced the concept of the draconic aura. A dragon shaman can learn any of the auras presented here in place of the ones in Player's Handbook II, but he can't take the same aura more than once. ... and otherwise follows all the normal rules for that class's draconic auras.
My early remark about learning class features was also drawn from the rules too. That is a possessive, not plural, s. So it's a little like saying you took a martial study that gave you a maneuver to use but you claimed you are learning a crusader's maneuver which can cause problems later on.