PDA

View Full Version : An Irresistable Force vs. an Immovable Object....



Arbitrarity
2007-10-11, 04:39 PM
Flee in terror, for the uncapped has been unleashed. Someone, somewhere, actually, in This thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=930253), has decided to start an argument over Pun-Pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) vs The Mortiverse (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2873260&postcount=1). The Mortiverse, incidentally, is the result of using the 3rd party "Immortal's Handbook".

Now, while the "logical" debate is fought with set theory, and some rather fuzzy rules, what sort of opinions do we have here?

Quietus
2007-10-11, 04:40 PM
Flee in terror, for the uncapped has been unleashed. Someone, somewhere, actually, in This thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=930253), has decided to start an argument over Pun-Pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) vs The Mortiverse (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2873260&postcount=1). The Mortiverse, incidentally, is the result of using the 3rd party "Immortal's Handbook".

Now, while the "logical" debate is fought with set theory, and some rather fuzzy rules, what sort of opinions do we have here?

Easy enough; Roll opposed d20's, add infinity to both. Higher roller wins.

Green Bean
2007-10-11, 04:48 PM
I'd say it'd start off as an epic, universe destroying battle, but eventually turn into a Slap Slap Kiss. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.SlapSlapKiss)

You've read it! You can't unread it! :smallamused:

Arbitrarity
2007-10-11, 04:52 PM
Owww... it burns!

My eyes want to unread something...

Incidentally :smallbiggrin:

Always Maximize Roll
Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.


Wait... that doesn't apply 0.o

They have MORE than 16-20, and they therefore aren't greater deities, so they can't use that....
:smallsigh:

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-11, 04:52 PM
Juggernaut crashing into the Blob, and the Blob goes flying, along with a large chunk of the ground he was standing on. If this is the more powerful Blob, Juggernaut pushes him back and the ground moves with him.

:smallwink:

Yuudai
2007-10-11, 04:57 PM
Everyone loses

cupkeyk
2007-10-11, 05:04 PM
X-men: isn't it odd that the UNSTOPPABLE JUGGERNAUT has been stopped, and the IMMOVABLE BLOB has been moved? Juggernaut's ability involves being "unstoppable" if he gains any forward momentum, while Blob creates a gravitational field preventing him from being moved from his location. They were both defeated by tangent forces, the ground destroyed underneath Jugs, Blob was exposed to a heavier body. Since the active Juggernaut can create a tangent force where as the passive blob cannot, I would say that Irresistable wins.

Green Bean
2007-10-11, 05:15 PM
X-men: isn't it odd that the UNSTOPPABLE JUGGERNAUT has been stopped, and the IMMOVABLE BLOB has been moved? Juggernaut's ability involves being "unstoppable" if he gains any forward momentum, while Blob creates a gravitational field preventing him from being moved from his location. They were both defeated by tangent forces, the ground destroyed underneath Jugs, Blob was exposed to a heavier body. Since the active Juggernaut can create a tangent force where as the passive blob cannot, I would say that Irresistable wins.

Technically speaking, you can't have an irresistible force and an immovable object in the same universe at the same time, as the existence of one would preclude the existence of the other.

Bunny of Faith
2007-10-11, 05:23 PM
Just wondering, does anyone have a link to the level 1 Pun-Pun? I can't seem to find it...

Illiterate Scribe
2007-10-11, 05:29 PM
I have to say that Pun-Pun, saviour of the DnD rules, wins this one. The Mortiverse is just ZOMG NUMBORZ!!1!, whereas Khan, Stormwind, Ghola and others have created an entity that needs its own theory of time to truly comprehend.

Alleine
2007-10-11, 05:37 PM
I really can't say, seeing as I haven't seen the most powerful version of pun-pun yet. That thread is too big to sift through, however I think it is pretty pointless. You're pitting a legitimate WoTC-only monstrosity(Pun-Pun) against a 3rd party... thing...(Mortiverse) which is essentially a mass of numbers shoved together until it equals infinity.

Also, Pun-Pun has a cooler name.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-11, 05:38 PM
I have to say that Pun-Pun, saviour of the DnD rules, wins this one. The Mortiverse is just ZOMG NUMBORZ!!1!, whereas Khan, Stormwind, Ghola and others have created an entity that needs its own theory of time to truly comprehend.

Actually, if anyone but those who carefully perused the IH knew what that long list of abilities did, it might seem to even the score. There's something about duplication of observed powers, knowing everything (Special: The DM hands you the adventure he is currently running), and a bunch of other crazy stuff like that.

Level 1 pun-pun is somewhere late in the pun-pun thread, not entirely sure where.

Lyinginbedmon
2007-10-11, 05:40 PM
I would like to point out that you couldn't have an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

Consider this: In order for the unstoppable force to continue being so after colliding with the immovable object, it would need to be deflected. In doing so, it's forward momentum would reach zero at one point as it acquires momentum in another direction, thus meaning it isn't unstoppable.

Likewise, for an immovable object to be immovable, it would have to prevent it's own motion after the collision with the unstoppable force. In doing so, it eliminates the possibility of the unstoppable force being unstoppable.

Therefore, as h_v stated, they can't exist in the same universe, if at all.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-11, 05:47 PM
I know that :smallbiggrin: Opus 100 FTW.
They're inherently contradictory terms.

On the other hand, it is remarkably similar to the grappling of two infinities. Example, what happens if two creatures with literally infinite stats are forced to make opposed checks (infinite damage loop in conjunction with the Shambling Mound's electricity to CON, followed by Void Release and Bellflower tatoo, followed by use of manipulate form)

Mewtarthio
2007-10-11, 05:57 PM
I would like to point out that you couldn't have an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

Consider this: In order for the unstoppable force to continue being so after colliding with the immovable object, it would need to be deflected. In doing so, it's forward momentum would reach zero at one point as it acquires momentum in another direction, thus meaning it isn't unstoppable.

Likewise, for an immovable object to be immovable, it would have to prevent it's own motion after the collision with the unstoppable force. In doing so, it eliminates the possibility of the unstoppable force being unstoppable.

Therefore, as h_v stated, they can't exist in the same universe, if at all.

I say it shatters the multiverse into an infinite number of timelines, each with a different outcome.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-10-11, 06:16 PM
Well, Pun-Pun is only Wizards stuff, but the Mortiverse is 3rd party. They can't work together, unless Pun-Pun has access to those things as well. Then, Pun-Pun has everthing the Mortiverse has, plus all his other stuff.

Pun-Pun wins.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-11, 06:19 PM
Well, Pun-Pun is only Wizards stuff, but the Mortiverse is 3rd party. They can't work together, unless Pun-Pun has access to those things as well. Then, Pun-Pun has everthing the Mortiverse has, plus all his other stuff.

Pun-Pun wins.

That is, indeed, a mentioned argument. But that thread makes my brain hurt, if only because they keep throwing around travestries of set theory.

This, however, is a great quote.


I don't frequent these boards. I don't care to debate the minutia of which nigh-omnipotent being is more nigh-omnipotent. I don't even play D&D all that much. But this colossal display of idiocy:



Originally Posted by Buugipopuu
You don't have 0 whole apples, because that's a meaningless concept.


has forced me to respond in the name of all that is good and logical in the universe.

If B ⊂ A then (B ∩ C) ⊂ (A ∩ C).

P.S. If you try to argue that "whole apples" is not a subset of "apples", I shall reach through the Internet and punch you in the face with a fury that only an irked geek can unleash.
P.P.S. YOU ARE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.

Cruiser1
2007-10-11, 06:37 PM
Concerning what happens if an Unstoppable Force meets an Immovable Object, first take into account relativity, where concepts like "motion" and "rest" are only relative to a particular frame of reference. If object #1 is unstoppable, and object #2 is immovable, note that from a reference frame attached to object #1, the situation is reversed, where it's the Immovable Object and object #2 is the Unstoppable Force.

And with a reference frame half way between the two objects, we have the situation of two Unstoppable Forces meeting. In other words, Unstoppable Force meeting Immovable Object is equivalent to two Unstoppable Forces meeting.

The other consideration is that matter is mostly empty space and energy. Hence if two Unstoppable Forces meet, they'll go through each other and continue on their way. (This is similar to how two galaxies can "collide" and pass through each other mostly unaffected, where the odds of any stars colliding are low since the stars are so far apart from each other.) The Unstoppable Force will go through the Immovable Object and pass out the other side. That answer avoids violating either's condition. :smallsmile:

Emperor Tippy
2007-10-11, 07:22 PM
Pun-Pun wins by virtue of being able to create abilities for himself that don't ever appear in any rule book and give them to himself as Ex abilities.

"I Win"
Pun-Pun win's every fight, challenge, contest, or anything else Pun-Pun wants to win.
EX

It's perfectly legal per RAW as well.

kemmotar
2007-10-11, 07:27 PM
Pun pun with 0 ranks in UMD and infinite charisma score uses a scroll of disintigrate with an infinite DC...there was trouble with the mortiverse link so i couldn't see it(nor do i know all its abilities) however, i doubt he has infinite fort save...(though i can predict that he has infinite con too...)if so, how about infinite will save?something like that comes to mind...if you can't move it...you don't need to...just go around it...

Alleine
2007-10-11, 07:35 PM
IIRC the Mortiverse has +infinity to everything, and not nigh infinity either. REAL infinity.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-11, 07:35 PM
Pun-Pun wins by virtue of being able to create abilities for himself that don't ever appear in any rule book and give them to himself as Ex abilities.

"I Win"
Pun-Pun win's every fight, challenge, contest, or anything else Pun-Pun wants to win.
EX

It's perfectly legal per RAW as well.

Oddly, that's been mentioned as well :smallbiggrin:

Mortiverse has a "replicate" ability, which allows it to duplicate any ability of any creature it has encountered, so the argument goes as follows...


Oh ho. I've been deliberately avoiding doing this because I'm such a nice guy, and was keeping the moral high ground and not using the loose wording of Manipulate Form to have abilities that aren't published, which is underhanded and lame. But if you insist on interpreting the rules that way, you may note that in order for the Mortiverse to mimic an ability with Replicate, it merely has to have encountered it. It doesn't say it has to have encountered it in combat, or even encountered it being used by a creature that actually exists, or even encountered it during the course of actual events which happen, that the ability in question must be published, or any limitations on what must be done to "encounter" the ability. Thus, using its aleph-aleph-0 actions, the Mortiverse runs its own D&D game with a creature which has the ability:

Omniability
You have every ability contained within the set of abilities which it is beneficial to possess.

By playing a game in which this ability is on a creature, it encounters the ability, and thus replicates it with Replicate. What's really neat is that abilities copied with Replicate may be used "at any time". Not "at any time after encountering the ability", or even "at any time after taking Replicate", meaning the Mortiverse has every beneficial ability contained within the set of all abilities from the beginning of time, without taking any actions at all.


Which, incidentally, is idiotic.


IIRC the Mortiverse has +infinity to everything, and not nigh infinity either. REAL infinity.

True, but that is cancelled by something with the same ability. Therefore, pun-pun can have "virtual" infinity, as well as a real infinity, through the mentioned infinite damage loop/Shambling mound/Bellflower tattoo/void release/manipulate form.

cupkeyk
2007-10-11, 07:42 PM
Technically speaking, you can't have an irresistible force and an immovable object in the same universe at the same time, as the existence of one would preclude the existence of the other.

Hence the quotation marks on my reply; Jugs and Blob aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed, so we can't blame them if they named themselves with taglines they can't live up to.

skyclad
2007-10-11, 07:48 PM
I say it shatters the multiverse into an infinite number of timelines, each with a different outcome.

Doesnt that always happen anyway?

AlterForm
2007-10-11, 07:53 PM
snip

You bet its idiotic.

I haven't wanted to bring this up on the actual topic yet, but Bigxxxx claims Morti can replicate "the entire universe, perfectly, in its head, as a 'DnD Game' ".

But...if it would take an infinite amount "memory" to run a perfect simulation (Aleph-null?), but that simulation includes an infinitely complex creature/idea (Mortiverse, which in itself would take Aleph-null? memory to "run"), wouldn't the "actual memory" required be Aleph-1? Maybe Morti could do this if he had Aleph-null "memory", but if his simulation includes himself (which it would have to, since he's using it to "encounter" an ability), wouldn't have to account for...uh...Universe(Aleph-null), +Morti(Aleph-1), Morti's simulation inside himself(Aleph-2?), [recursion to Aleph-(Aleph-null))? Does that work? Would it even stop ther?], since every iteration has to contain a perfect "copy" of Morti, which is each infinitely complicated, simulation an infinitely complex existence and an infinitely complex being who is simulating an infinitely complex existence and an inifinitely complex being who is simulating an infinitely complex existence and an inifinitely complex being who is simulating an infinitely complex existence and an inifinitely complex being [repeatrepeatrepeat].

Even Morti can't process an infinitely-recursive simulation which adds another infinitely complex layer of complexity with each recursion, can he? (Incidentally, Pun-Pun can. He uses:

Infinite computation: Pun-Pun (and only Pun-Pun) can process/imagine/simulate anything, no matter how complex.)

Am I right? Or do I still not get the concepts of Alephs well enough? (I think that's what the argument Bigxxxx is presenting boils down to, and I can't say I fully understand Alephs yet, but I think I understand enough to follow the argument...)

Arbitrarity
2007-10-11, 08:08 PM
Having not actually began work on calculus or higher maths, I am unable to respond in a properly informed manner. All I can do is peruse wikipedia :smallbiggrin:

AlterForm
2007-10-11, 08:55 PM
Having not actually began work on calculus or higher maths, I am unable to respond in a properly informed manner. All I can do is peruse wikipedia :smallbiggrin:

Heh, that's exactly what I did.

If I understood correctly, Aleph-Null = Layman's Infinity. Aleph-1 = Layman's Infinity^2. And so on? I dunno.

Indon
2007-10-11, 09:15 PM
According to Exalted 1'st edition, the Immovable Object always wins.

Bauglir
2007-10-11, 10:31 PM
Even Morti can't process an infinitely-recursive simulation which adds another infinitely complex layer of complexity with each recursion, can he?

Y'know, that's what I said. Apparently alephs fix it? I don't really know, all I know is that I'm convinced that in any fight where the rules apply equally to both of them, we have a draw. Because they can both copy each others abilities (Pun-Pun, obviously, copies Morti's, but Morti can grab Manipulate Form as well and gain all of Pun-Pun's).

Emperor Tippy
2007-10-11, 10:48 PM
Actually Pun-Pun can create an ability that says none of his abilities can be copied by Mort and thus wins.

"I Win" is a valid, RAW legal, Pun-Pun ability. Anything you can imagine Pun-Pun can have as an ability. And with his infinite knowledge checks he can imagine everything.

Alleine
2007-10-11, 11:17 PM
When you start placing aleph-nulls, whatever the hell they are, on a creature meant to be placed in a DnD universe(I'm assuming, here) then you need to quit life. Higher mathematics in a freakin' FANTASY game? Ugh.

Waspinator
2007-10-12, 02:28 AM
Actually, Pun-Pun's ability should be "Pun-Pun wins", so it doesn't matter if it gets copied or not.

Leon
2007-10-12, 02:38 AM
the result is a Server Crash

SoD
2007-10-12, 03:57 AM
rresistable Force vs. an Immovable Object...

Easy. The force wins, the information on the immovable rod (in the DMG) is that it can be moved 10 feet in one round with a strength check (DC 30) and that it can hold up to 3000 pounds without moving. Assuming that an immovable object is the same, only just not a rod...the unstopable force is in for a win.

Awetugiw
2007-10-12, 05:00 AM
Must not try to explain infinity.... AAAAHHHHHHH! No! Help!


Heh, that's exactly what I did.

If I understood correctly, Aleph-Null = Layman's Infinity. Aleph-1 = Layman's Infinity^2. And so on? I dunno.

Well, actually... It's a little more complicated than that. The smallest infinity is Aleph_0, the amount of integers. Whether or not that's layman's infinity I really can't tell.

Aleph_1 is defined in no other way then the next smallest infinity. This is NOT (Aleph_0)^2 though, since (Aleph_0)^2=Aleph_0. There is an axiom, called the continuum hypothesis (CH) that states 2^(Aleph_0)=Aleph_1.

However, this is really an axiom. Both assuming that CH is true and assuming CH is false give a consistent set theory.*

If CH is true, that would be pretty nice, since we know what 2^(Aleph_0) is. 2^(Aleph_0)=(The amount of real numbers, that is, all numbers with a decimal representation, like say 3.14159265358979323...), but we have no idea what might be between Aleph_0 and 2^(Aleph_0). Still, even though both CH and NOT CH are consistent, NOT CH seems to give nicer properties, making it the preferred axiom, in a way.

*Assuming the other axioms of set theory are consistent.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-12, 06:25 AM
Cool. That's somewhat simpler than the wiki article :smallwink:

Of course, why 2^Aleph_0 would give me the amount of real numbers is rather confusing, as I haven't quite got thinking about sets down correctly...

martyboy74
2007-10-12, 06:53 AM
The problem with this fight is that the Mortiverse comes out of a third party handbook that most of the people on the boards have never heard of. This means that most people have no idea what the hell the statblock actually means.

Awetugiw
2007-10-12, 07:04 AM
(Sorry for the notation problems, I have no idea how to get the proper symbols and notation in here.)

Well, it's like this:
for ease of notation we'll note our real numbers as binary sequences. We'll only look at numbers between 0 and 1 first, I'll explain a way to get to all real numbers a bit later.

So we want to find all numbers 0.a_1 a_2 a_3 ... with a_1 either 0 or 1, a_2 either 0 or 1, and so on.

2^(Aleph_0) is actually just a notation for the amount of subsets of the natural numbers.* So if we can find a way to make each number 0.a_1 a_2 ... correspond with exactly one subset of the natural numbers, we see that the amount of real numbers (between 0 and 1 for now) is equal to the amount of real numbers.**

Now, for a number 0.a_1 a_2... we take a corresponding subset of the natural numbers by: n is in the subset if (and only if) a_n=1. So 0.000... corresponds to the empty subset, 0.111... corresponds to all natural numbers (which is also a subset of the natural numbers), 0.101000... corresponds to the set {1,3} and so on.

This way, two real numbers a and b between 0 and 1 correspond to the same subset of the natural numbers if and only if a=b. The other way around, one can easily see that two subsets A and B of the natural numbers only correspond to the same real number between 0 and 1 if A=B.***

In other words: we now have a 1-1 correspondence between 2^(Natural numbers) and the real numbers between 0 and 1, so 2^(Aleph_0)=(amount of real numbers between 0 and 1).

Now we only have to show that there are as much real numbers between 0 and 1 as there are real numbers. Take all real numbers between 0 and 1, excluding 0. Since infinity-1=infinity****, this is still the same amount of numbers. Now let any a in this set correspond to (1/a)-1. This way, all numbers between 0 and 1, excluding 0, correspond 1-1 to all real numbers greater or equal to 0. So the amount of real numbers between 0 and 1 is equal to the amount of positive real numbers. Since 2*inifinity = infinity****, we also have that the amount of real numbers is equal to the amount of positive real numbers, which is equal to the amount of real numbers between 0 and 1, which is equal to 2^(Aleph_0).

So the amount of real numbers is equal to 2^(Aleph_0).

* Actually, A^B is defined as all functions from B to A. Since 2={0,1} in set theory, 2^B for a set B is all functions from B to {0,1}. This can be identified with all subsets of B by taking (b is in the subset <=> the function sends b to 1). The nice thing about defining A^B this way, is that we do indeed have #(A^B)=#A^#B.

** Two amounts of element in two sets being equal is defined in set theory as the existence of a 1-1 function between the sets.

*** Actually, this is not entirely true. We have to be careful, since 0.1000...=0.0111... This can be worked around without really changing the argument itself though, so it isn't really important here.

**** Of course these statements are quite imprecise, since I failed to specify what infinity I'm using here. They are still true though, for any Aleph_i for infinity.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-12, 07:36 AM
In myhology, the Greek god Zeus had a rather practical solution to a situation like this.

A hound that tracks everything was set on the trail of a fox that evades everything. Zeus responded by turning both into stone, end of story.

SoD
2007-10-12, 07:41 AM
What, so if you set an unstopale force against an immovable object you'd have...an unstopable force made of stone up against an immovable object made of stone?

:wink:

Keld Denar
2007-10-12, 07:44 AM
Pun-Pun wins, simply by virtue that he outnumbers Mortiverse. He has a familiar with all of his infinite abilites and infinite divine rank and its own independant actions. 2>1...Pun-Pun wins.

AlterForm
2007-10-12, 07:44 AM
snip

:smallamused: Hmm, I think Alephs make some more sense now (I knew set theory and the real numbers were in there somewhere, just not how :smallbiggrin: ).

So...my aforementioned argument. Does it still hold? Or even make sense? Because once we stop Morti from "imagining" (:smallconfused:) any ability, Pun-Pun wins. And figuring out whether something has a 1-1 correspondence (and thus doesn't go up a level of infinity?) still doesn't quite make sense to me.


Pun-Pun wins, simply by virtue that he outnumbers Mortiverse. He has a familiar with all of his infinite abilites and infinite divine rank and its own independant actions. 2>1...Pun-Pun wins.

Apparently Morti can make infinite copies of himself...and so can PunPun. As Awetugiw explained, Infinity+1 = Infinity.

Edit: Yeah, Aleph-Null is "Layman's Infinity" as I call it... what you get when you count 0,1,2,3,4,5...etc. Although I'm sure that commits some kind of travesty in this context. :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2007-10-12, 08:17 AM
Yeah, Aleph-Null is "Layman's Infinity" as I call it... what you get when you count 0,1,2,3,4,5...etc. Although I'm sure that commits some kind of travesty in this context. :smallbiggrin:

Not really. If you count 0,1,2,3,4 etc, you will never get to infinity (not even Aleph-Null), on grounds of it being infinite. "Never", in this context, means "in an infinite amount of time".

But yeah, some infinites are more infinite than others, and aleph-null is the least amount of inifinity you can get while still being infinite. It does make sense if you know the math behind it. Aleph-null is the amount of natural, whole, or rational numbers. There are an equal amount of natural numbers as there are of whole numbers (even though the latter group is precisely twice as large) but there are an infinitely larger amount of real numbers.

Jade_Tarem
2007-10-12, 08:41 AM
*Sigh*

Does anyone else hear the song "Anything you can do, I can do better" playing in the background?

The only solution is to put both Pun-Pun and the Mortiverse into the Devil's fiddle contest. Each one is denied their OMG!!11! bonus and the ability to spontaneously warp reality and must rely only on the aid of seven levels of bard OR the fiendish template + three demonic minstrels. Winner gets a golden fiddle and the other participant's soul.

AlterForm
2007-10-12, 06:57 PM
Not really. If you count 0,1,2,3,4 etc, you will never get to infinity (not even Aleph-Null), on grounds of it being infinite. "Never", in this context, means "in an infinite amount of time".

But yeah, some infinites are more infinite than others, and aleph-null is the least amount of inifinity you can get while still being infinite. It does make sense if you know the math behind it. Aleph-null is the amount of natural, whole, or rational numbers. There are an equal amount of natural numbers as there are of whole numbers (even though the latter group is precisely twice as large) but there are an infinitely larger amount of real numbers.

Well, that's what I'm getting at. Most people I've talked to who don't muck around in this kind of stuff think that that's what's at the "end" of all numbers, if you could ever get there. Of course, now I know that that's a completely idiotic concept... "counting to infinity". Suffice to say, (at least IMO) my "Layman's Infinity" can coincide with "Aleph-null" if you aren't dealing with/requiring a rigorous definition of infinity, since you're counting the whole numbers greater than zero (the natural numbers, unless I'm mistaken?). I'm sure I'm saying some rather annoying things to you guys, but it's a bit like trying to think in 4 dimensions when you're used to just 3...

Anyways, my assertation of Morti's inability to process infinitely-complexing, infinitely-recursive data? Does it make mathematical sense? Taking away Morti's ability to "encounter" any ability in order to gain it would, as I mentioned earlier, put a rather large nail in his coffin. :smallbiggrin:

Darth Mario
2007-10-12, 07:57 PM
The only solution is to put both Pun-Pun and the Mortiverse into the Devil's fiddle contest. Each one is denied their OMG!!11! bonus and the ability to spontaneously warp reality and must rely only on the aid of seven levels of bard OR the fiendish template + three demonic minstrels. Winner gets a golden fiddle and the other participant's soul.

I think, sir, that I might just have to sig that.

Awetugiw
2007-10-13, 05:33 AM
Anyways, my assertation of Morti's inability to process infinitely-complexing, infinitely-recursive data? Does it make mathematical sense? Taking away Morti's ability to "encounter" any ability in order to gain it would, as I mentioned earlier, put a rather large nail in his coffin. :smallbiggrin:

One cannot directly make that statement. A set of size Aleph_0 can contain (actually: always contains**) "smaller" sets* of size Aleph_0. So a being of Aleph_0 complexity could contain itself, so to speak.

Think of it like this: if this "Morti" is all natural numbers, that is all positive integers, then it can simulate an inner-Morti in all even numbers. This way he has a full copy of himself (there are as much even numbers as natural numbers), but he still has as much complexity left for himself, since there are also as much odd numbers as natural numbers.

Now this copy of Morti can once again have a copy of itself on all even numbers, corresponding to all numbers divisible by 4 in the original Morti. And so on, and so on, the n-th copy of Mort being the numbers divisible by 2^n in the original Morti.

Now, I don't know how Morti is created, so I don't know if it can actually do this. Also, I'm not an expert in how simulations work, so there might be some kind of "Universal law" somewhere that makes it impossible to actually simulate a copy of yourself, instead of just containing it.

*Smaller in set theory is usually simply defined by subsets: A is smaller than B if A is a subset of B and not equal to B.

** An often-used definition of infinity is that a set is infinity if and only if it contains a proper subset with the same number of elements as the set itself.

-edit: added 'proper' to subset to fix definition.

CrazedGoblin
2007-10-13, 05:52 AM
the result is a Server Crash

hehe:smallbiggrin:

Callos_DeTerran
2007-10-13, 07:20 AM
Actually Pun-Pun can create an ability that says none of his abilities can be copied by Mort and thus wins.

"I Win" is a valid, RAW legal, Pun-Pun ability. Anything you can imagine Pun-Pun can have as an ability. And with his infinite knowledge checks he can imagine everything.

Really? By all means explain how that works. I'm intensely curious how Pun-Pun copies abilities that don't exist from creatures that don't exist. Or even changes abilities around to versions of themselves (That also don't exist or at least haven't been seen) that make them (Ex).

But then again I've also been equally curious how this supposedly infinitely powerful kobold even achieves spellcasting since it's neither a supernatural, extraordinary, or spell-like ability and no monsters has spells as a supernatural or extraordinary ability that I remember meaning Pun-pun can only copy spell-like abilities that a creature he knows has which excludes like....more then half of Spell Compendium and other books.

Malfunctioned
2007-10-13, 08:06 AM
Pun-Pun.......because it's Pun-Pun :smallbiggrin:

Arbitrarity
2007-10-13, 08:46 AM
Really? By all means explain how that works. I'm intensely curious how Pun-Pun copies abilities that don't exist from creatures that don't exist. Or even changes abilities around to versions of themselves (That also don't exist or at least haven't been seen) that make them (Ex).

But then again I've also been equally curious how this supposedly infinitely powerful kobold even achieves spellcasting since it's neither a supernatural, extraordinary, or spell-like ability and no monsters has spells as a supernatural or extraordinary ability that I remember meaning Pun-pun can only copy spell-like abilities that a creature he knows has which excludes like....more then half of Spell Compendium and other books.


Untrue. He can copy/create ANY Extra-ordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability, unlike mortiverse. Furthermore, he can make them up as he will, as there is no clause to their actual existence. His spellcasting is every possible and potential Sp ability, at will.

Look at the pun-pun thread linked on the first page.


Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.

Note the lack of qualifying text, which is why the Manipulate Form ability is broken.


For the most part, when I refer to abilities possessed by Pun-Pun, I refer to abilities that already exist in a WoTC published sourcebook. The ability is either one seen in a base class or prestige class, or one seen in a monster stat block. However, the wording in the Manipulate Form text does not limit one to published abilities only. In fact, the descriptive text states that any ability can be granted, so long as it is Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-like in nature.

Allowing one the means to obtain most any ability found in published material is certainly broken. Allowing one to grant itself any ability it can conceive is ridiculousness beyond words. Basically, nothing is beyond the power of Pun-Pun, due to unrestrictive text in Manipulate Form.

Pun-Pun can grant himself an ability as innocent as:

Tough it Out

Benefit: If Pun-Pun would go unconscious due to any effect, he instead reamins conscious.

Or, he could grant himself an ability as powerful as:

I Win

Benefit: Pun-Pun cannot be harmed, directly or indirectly. Any act that would harm him automatically fails, at any place and at any given time. Further, Pun-Pun automatically succeeds at anything he attempts.

Given this level of power with Manipulate Form, it would be easy to say he can do anything and no one can stop him. Generally though, I (and most everyone else that has participated in this exercise) do not use this power of Manipulate Form. It is much more fun to stay within the abilities found in the rulebooks, and doing so allows others to challenge Pun-Pun with a sliver of a chance .

LordofProcrastination devised an interesting way to justify out of the ordinary abilities without simply conjuring them from thin air. 'Out of the ordinary abilities' is referring to abilities that would normally be found as supernatural or spell-like but instead granted to Pun-Pun as extraordinary.

For example, Manipulate Form is normally a supernatural ability. However, Pun-Pun could easily stay within the parameters set by Manipulate Form and grant himself an extraordinary version of Manipulate Form. The benefit being that Pun-Pun can make himself completely immune to all magic and supernatural effects without hindering the use of his own Manipulate Form ability.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-13, 08:58 AM
Consider this: In order for the unstoppable force to continue being so after colliding with the immovable object, it would need to be deflected. In doing so, it's forward momentum would reach zero at one point as it acquires momentum in another direction, thus meaning it isn't unstoppable.

Sure they can.

Unstoppable force flies towards immovable object. Gets deflected at an angle(however small said angle may be, even 10ths of a degree). It continues plowing on, the immovable object remains in place.

Alternatively, unstoppable force=water, immovable object=rock. Water flows around the rock.

AlterForm
2007-10-13, 09:32 AM
One cannot directly make that statement. A set of size Aleph_0 can contain (actually: always contains**) "smaller" sets* of size Aleph_0. So a being of Aleph_0 complexity could contain itself, so to speak.

Think of it like this: if this "Morti" is all natural numbers, that is all positive integers, then it can simulate an inner-Morti in all even numbers. This way he has a full copy of himself (there are as much even numbers as natural numbers), but he still has as much complexity left for himself, since there are also as much odd numbers as natural numbers.

Now this copy of Morti can once again have a copy of itself on all even numbers, corresponding to all numbers divisible by 4 in the original Morti. And so on, and so on, the n-th copy of Mort being the numbers divisible by 2^n in the original Morti.

Now, I don't know how Morti is created, so I don't know if it can actually do this. Also, I'm not an expert in how simulations work, so there might be some kind of "Universal law" somewhere that makes it impossible to actually simulate a copy of yourself, instead of just containing it.

*Smaller in set theory is usually simply defined by subsets: A is smaller than B if A is a subset of B and not equal to B.

** An often-used definition of infinity is that a set is infinity if and only if it contains a proper subset with the same number of elements as the set itself.

-edit: added 'proper' to subset to fix definition.

Makes sense when you put it that way. Although, from a "truthiness" perspective, it does seem like it shouldn't be able to simulate an infinite number of infinitely complex things, doesn't it? (<-- Not disagreeing, just a tangent thought)

Bauglir
2007-10-13, 10:35 AM
But wait. Assuming the set of all real numbers, isn't the set of even numbers half that size? They're both infinite, but one infinity is greater than the other.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-10-13, 11:40 AM
*snip*

...Thats utterly stupid. I'm not saying your wrong because it looks right but it falls into the same category of me making a 0-level spell that I can cast as an immiedete action in response to anything happening (As contingency) that destroys the multiverse (Through damage nonetheless, and its evocation) in less then the blink of an eye and is purely a mental action. No save and no SR or immunity.

Technically I followed the RAW for creating the spell (Which is called 'Mebod' by the way :smallwink: ) but that doesn't mean anybody will let you use it. Just like any DM that lets someone get away with Pun-Pun (On accident or on purpose) can allow or disallow any 'self created abilities' Pun-Pun to limit that sort of crap and keep Pun-Pun within the bounds of written cheese. And so help me someone better not say 'This is assuming someone has a DM that will allow automaticlly approve what a player comes up with for the sake of this excercise' cause that means 'Mebod' gets approved too and the multiverse ends before Pun-pun can ascend to UNLIMITED POWER!



...Okay my rant against Pun-pun is over now I think.

brian c
2007-10-13, 12:27 PM
For those of you talking about math:

Let Aleph-Null = C (it's less to write)

Then we have:


C^n = C for all real n, n not = 0

C + n = C for all real n

C^C = Aleph-1

C^0 = undefined (indeterminate form; can be evaluated in some limits though)

C/n = C, n real and n not =0

C/C = undefined (indeterminate)



so: If Morti contains a finite number of infinite things, the number of things contained (its hard to phrase that but i hope you understand) is C*n, which is fine since thats still a first order infinity (I didn't mention that above, but it should be trivial since C*n < C^n = C). If he contains an infinite number of infinities, thats C^2, which is okay. If he contains and infinite number of infinite sets, and each of those also contains an infinite number of infinite sets, thats when you run into a problem.


we're going over all that stuff in my analysis class again on monday, but I don't think I've misspoken.



But wait. Assuming the set of all real numbers, isn't the set of even numbers half that size? They're both infinite, but one infinity is greater than the other.

This is why infinities are tricky. The concept you have to use is cardinal equivalency. If you can create a one-to-one function between the elements of two sets, then the two sets are Cardinally Equivalent. That means that they have the same number of members (same cardinality). Since f(x) = 2x is a function from (all integers) -> (even numbers), and this function is one-to-one, those two sets are equivalent, so they use the same infinity.

However: what I just said is about Z (the set of integers) and 2Z (the set of even integers). you actually asked about R, the set of real numbers. Z is what we call "countably infinite", because you can theoretically count the elements of the set in a way so that you never skip any. 0, -1, 1, -2, 2, -3, 3, ..... you'll never actually get to infinity, but you never miss an element.

Z is cardinally equivalent to N (natural numbers) because you can arrange Z in that way so that you can make a function going from the nth entry in N to the nth entry in this list of Z. That function will be one-to-one (homework problem: prove that! it's true though, I promise), therefore Z ~ N (symbol for cardinally equivalent).

There's also a logic for Q (rational numbers) being countably infinite, that is Q ~ N. Basically, if you write all rational numbers as fractions, and you put them in a table with numerator and denominator on the axes, with the table entry being num/denom, you can read through the table diagonally and "count" every rational number.

Now we get to R. I can't prove it simply, but it has been proven by people smarter than me (and deader than me- Cantor was doing this stuff 150 years ago) that R is uncountably infinite. There is no way to arrange R in a "countable" way. The cardinality of R is then a greater number than the cardinality of Z. Aleph-One is the symbol used for Cardinality of R.

Jayabalard
2007-10-13, 12:46 PM
But wait. Assuming the set of all real numbers, isn't the set of even numbers half that size? They're both infinite, but one infinity is greater than the other.nope, that isn't how it works, even though you can have differences in size even with infinite sets. Read here if you are curious about countably infinite vs uncountably infinite sets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countable)


The set of even numbers is a subset of the set of natural numbers (0, 1, 2, 3... with no fractions)
The set of Even numbers is the same size as the set of natural numbers; they're both countably infinite. This seems absurd at first glance, but is indeed true. N is the Set of Natural Numbers (0, 1, 2, 3, ...)
E the set of Even Natural numbers (0, 2, 4, 6, ...)
for each n in N there is exactly one e in E such that e = 2n
since each element in one set maps to exactly one element in the other set, there are the same number of elements in both sets.

Twice as many elements as the set of Even numbers is still countably infinite; there's still a way to map it to N with a one to one mapping.
The set of all real numbers is uncountably infinite Proof here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_first_uncountability_proof); By definition, uncountable means that it is larger than the set of natural numbers. This is a MUCH bigger set than the number of natural numbers; the number of real numbers in the interval of 0 .. 1 is larger than the size of N.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-13, 12:50 PM
I believe the correct response in this instance is "Something's Gotta Give... (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Something's-Gotta-Give-lyrics-Frank-Sinatra/9DBAFCC787394D7B482569200004CE80)"

Frank Sinatra ftw.

...Eh?
2007-10-13, 07:47 PM
Pun-Pun alters himself to give himself the following powers: None of his abilities can be imitated in any from, followed by the "I Win" described in the original link, and then one that allows him to kill the Mortiverse (and specifically the Mortiverse) as an immediate action. I'm not sure that I see what the problem is.

EDIT: Whoops, looks like I missed Tippy saying the same thing earlier.

Edea
2007-10-13, 07:59 PM
Mister Rogers defeats them both.

Calver
2007-10-13, 08:00 PM
Ignoring that: 1) Callos is absolutely right about (my paraphrase) "the DM is 'more god' than Pun-Pun and Mortiverse" and can thus stop both of them from happening; and 2) that official rules beat "published houserules" (third-party supplements; especially by third-party publishers whose name reads "Munchkin-goober Handbook") I think that Pun-Pun ultimately wins. Now, I read most of those big, high-level-math posts, but I think- realizing that all this immeasurable math talk is purely theory- that Pun-Pun wins because he "achieved" "infinity" with less levels. Mortiverse is "infinite" with 9-10 templates, as near as I can sort out. Pun-pun has 1 level of Divine Minion, 1 level of Wizard, and 3 levels of Master of Many Forms and achieves infinity. Thus, Pun-Pun is more efficient and, if you really need to see a fight between the two and assuming time is measurable when dealing with infinites (you guys that know this stuff probably have a theory that says it doesn't exist where infinites are involved), Pun-pun would be able to wipe out Mortiverse before it came into existence.


EDIT: and if someone feels like telling me I'm wrong, I default on Edea's answer. Mr. R FTW! XD
So, Game, Set, and Match Pun-Pun. (Especially since I would trust pun-pun not to wipe out the universe :smallwink: )

AlterForm
2007-10-13, 08:31 PM
Pun-Pun alters himself to give himself the following powers: None of his abilities can be imitated in any from, followed by the "I Win" described in the original link, and then one that allows him to kill the Mortiverse (and specifically the Mortiverse) as an immediate action. I'm not sure that I see what the problem is.

EDIT: Whoops, looks like I missed Tippy saying the same thing earlier.

The problem is that apparently Morti can do the same thing at the same time. :smallconfused:


Ignoring that: 1) Callos is absolutely right about (my paraphrase) "the DM is 'more god' than Pun-Pun and Mortiverse" and can thus stop both of them from happening; and 2) that official rules beat "published houserules" (third-party supplements; especially by third-party publishers whose name reads "Munchkin-goober Handbook") I think that Pun-Pun ultimately wins. Now, I read most of those big, high-level-math posts, but I think- realizing that all this immeasurable math talk is purely theory- that Pun-Pun wins because he "achieved" "infinity" with less levels. Mortiverse is "infinite" with 9-10 templates, as near as I can sort out. Pun-pun has 1 level of Divine Minion, 1 level of Wizard, and 3 levels of Master of Many Forms and achieves infinity. Thus, Pun-Pun is more efficient and, if you really need to see a fight between the two and assuming time is measurable when dealing with infinites (you guys that know this stuff probably have a theory that says it doesn't exist where infinites are involved), Pun-pun would be able to wipe out Mortiverse before it came into existence.


EDIT: and if someone feels like telling me I'm wrong, I default on Edea's answer. Mr. R FTW! XD
So, Game, Set, and Match Pun-Pun. (Especially since I would trust pun-pun not to wipe out the universe :smallwink: )

Actually you are wrong.

PunPun's only ECL 1. :smallbiggrin:

martyboy74
2007-10-13, 08:58 PM
The problem is that apparently Morti can do the same thing at the same time. :smallconfused:

How does that work? Pun-pun has to have them for Morti to copy them, and that gives them a period, as infintesimal as it may be, in which Pun-Pun alone has them. If Pun-Pun includes the clause about the abilities not being copyable, then he wins.

Or does Morti ignore single-directional causuality?

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-13, 09:10 PM
I would like to point out that you couldn't have an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

Consider this: In order for the unstoppable force to continue being so after colliding with the immovable object, it would need to be deflected. In doing so, it's forward momentum would reach zero at one point as it acquires momentum in another direction, thus meaning it isn't unstoppable.

Likewise, for an immovable object to be immovable, it would have to prevent it's own motion after the collision with the unstoppable force. In doing so, it eliminates the possibility of the unstoppable force being unstoppable.

Therefore, as h_v stated, they can't exist in the same universe, if at all.

Actually, if you break down the momentum/direction of the unstoppable objects into it's component vector in a 3 axis box graph, you can have the object deflect while maintaining 2 or more of it's axial vectors. Thus it does not 'stop' but rather, it is merely temporarily slowed in it's motion.

All one requires is that the nature of the immovable object and unstoppable force is that one or more of them it is an an inconsistent mass such that when the unstoppable force strikes the immovable object, the unstoppable force is not directed back in -exactly- the direction it came from.

This allows preservation of both the unstoppable status of the force and the immovable status of the object.

This is actually very well modeled by the squishy nature of the blob, and the hard, but overbalanced, nature of the juggernaut.

AlterForm
2007-10-13, 09:16 PM
How does that work? Pun-pun has to have them for Morti to copy them, and that gives them a period, as infintesimal as it may be, in which Pun-Pun alone has them. If Pun-Pun includes the clause about the abilities not being copyable, then he wins.

Or does Morti ignore single-directional causuality?

You mean like it can affect the past, present, and future at the same time? Yeah, apparently. :smallmad:

Also, Morti's versions of the abilities would probably replace "PunPun" with "Mortiverse". ie:


Mortiverse wins. At everything. Anytime it wants to. Forever.

GoC
2007-10-13, 10:19 PM
*snip*

Hmm...
I can't help thinking...
Could either of them give themselves Aleph_1 stats? What about Aleph_2? Aleph_omega/Aleph_w? Aleph_anything?

Every "my computable number/number/infinity is bigger than yours" competition comes down to defining bigger ordinals in the end...

I vote that Aleph_Gamma_0 beats them both!:smallbiggrin:

EDIT:
With an infinite number of Divine Ability Slots, it gains Transcendental Presence (Multidimensional) an infinite number of times, which means each of its infinity manifestations causes every other manifestation in the Universe to gain an infinite number of additional manifestations, and so on. The result: Aleph-1 manifestations in zero time. Since the Mortiverse still knows all spells, it can then cast an epic ritual with Aleph-1 participants each granting a 1st level spell slot to gain Divine Rank Aleph-1, and start the whole process all over again. The result: Divine Rank Aleph-Aleph-0.

What kind of mathematician mistakes Aleph_w for Aleph-Aleph-0 (which, incedentaly, doesn't exist)?:smallannoyed:

EDIT2: Just realised. Manipulate Form can grant Pun-Pun any ability that anybody on this planet can drum up. Including the ones they talk about Mortiverse having...
Interestingly Mortiverse also has a similar ability...
You end up with two infinite Busy Beaver Oracles (with the ability to create any other type of Oracle) duking it out.
Needless to say this is inconsistent and means niether of them could exist in any universe.
So...
What happens if you modify both of their abilities to make them consistent?

...Eh?
2007-10-13, 11:02 PM
The problem is that apparently Morti can do the same thing at the same time. :smallconfused:

And how is that? Pun-Pun's cheese comes from the ability to copy or create any ability, no matter how rediculous. All the Mortiverse has are really big numbers, and maybe a wish spell-like ability; I don't see anything that says the Morty can add abilities onto himself.

AlterForm
2007-10-14, 10:11 AM
And how is that? Pun-Pun's cheese comes from the ability to copy or create any ability, no matter how rediculous. All the Mortiverse has are really big numbers, and maybe a wish spell-like ability; I don't see anything that says the Morty can add abilities onto himself.

Mortiverse has an ability called Replicate. It allows to learn any ability it has encountered, which it apparently abuses in conjunction with the ability to run a DnD Game in its head with perfect execution, thus "encountering" the ability. :smallyuk: (this is why I was trying to see if Morti actually had to capability to process all that possibility)

Although...looking over the original post of Mortiverse...I don't see any mention of "Replicate"...hmmm...*starts searching the thread*

Hmmm...it would seem that Buggpipuou simply started mentioning "Replicate" as one of Morti's abiilities on Page 3. Maybe it's part of one of Morti's ridiculous templates?

Jayabalard
2007-10-14, 10:30 AM
Hmm...
I can't help thinking...
Could either of them give themselves Aleph_1 stats? What about Aleph_2? Aleph_omega/Aleph_w? Aleph_anything?No...as far as I understand iut they both increase their stats in an iterative fashion, they'd be from a countably infinite set by definition (since iterative methods mean that you can map to the set of natural numbers on a one to one basis, by definition).

Foeofthelance
2007-10-14, 11:21 AM
I think the trick is not to say who wins, but who loses.

Pun-pun simple rewrites the "I Win" ability to say "Mortiverse always loses any fight it gets in."

Now, no matter what happens, Mortiverse loses. Even if it copies the ability it can't change it, and so it loses. At worst it cancels out copying the "I Win" ability, leaving Pun-Pun the only one capable of declaring victory.

AlterForm
2007-10-14, 11:23 AM
I think the trick is not to say who wins, but who loses.

Pun-pun simple rewrites the "I Win" ability to say "Mortiverse always loses any fight it gets in."

Now, no matter what happens, Mortiverse loses. Even if it copies the ability it can't change it, and so it loses. At worst it cancels out copying the "I Win" ability, leaving Pun-Pun the only one capable of declaring victory.

[Devil'sAdocate] Mortiverse simply makes its own ability that says PunPun loses.[/Devil'sAdvocate] :smallfurious:

GoC
2007-10-14, 11:29 AM
Modifications to their abilities to make them consistent:
Manipulate Form only grants abilities from puplished D20 materials.
Replicate only grants abilities that Mortiverse has encountered physicaly in his own past.

Agreed?

EDIT: Ok, Pun-Pun can use the same method Mortiverse used to gain Aleph_w divine ranks.
This also gives Aleph_w hitpoints, hd, stats, caster level and most other things.
Pun-Pun can easily gain a set of ex abilities that combined mean he can't die or go unconcious.
Someone clamed that Mortiverse could nulify all ex, su and sp abilities, if this is true then we've essentialy got two Aleph_w gods trying to kill eachother.
The result cannot be determined unless we have an expert on infinite sets at hand (and probably even then). Anyone?

EDIT2: We also need more info on Mort's abilities.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-14, 08:56 PM
Ao 'wipeinfo's them both for their presumptuousness. Especially because unlike them, he doesn't require anything to be published for his power. Then he seeks out their backup files and deletes them as well. Except that "then" is defined as "simultaneously", because he's just that pimp.

By the way, I already mentioned the "go around" theory for the Force vs Object.:smallbiggrin:

Arbitrarity
2007-10-14, 09:00 PM
Ao 'wipeinfo's them both for their presumptuousness. Especially because unlike them, he doesn't require anything to be published for his power. Then he seeks out their backup files and deletes them as well. Except that "then" is defined as "simultaneously", because he's just that pimp.

By the way, I already mentioned the "go around" theory for the Force vs Object.:smallbiggrin:

I thought Pun-Pun WAS Ao. It makes a lot of sense that way :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2007-10-14, 10:54 PM
AO is Pun-Pun's cabana boy.

brian c
2007-10-14, 11:53 PM
I really don't see what the argument is about.

As far as I can tell, here's what they have:

Pun-Pun can give himself any ability, ever.

Mortiverse can give him(it?)self any ability that someone else has.



So Pun-Pun gives himself the ability "Unable to be killed by Mortiverse". If Mortiverse copies this ability, he is unable to kill himself.

Next, Pun-Pun gives himself the ability "Superblink: Any time that Pun-Pun blinks, Mortiverse is destroyed." If Mortiverse copies this ability, it would read "Superblink: Any time that Mortiverse blinks, Mortiverse is destroyed"

Step 3: Staring contest. Whoever wins, Mortiverse loses.

(Or really, Pun-Pun can just blink. But the staring contest would be more fun)

Eldritch_Ent
2007-10-15, 12:52 AM
Ehh, as DM I'd just give the victory to Pun-Pun because he got all his power from RAW progression from level 1, wheras the Mortiverse seems, at least to me, to be the DND equivalent of "I shot you infinity times!" "No way!" "Yuh-huh!". Which... Infuriates me to no end. It's the worst sort of powergaming... I won't discuss it further lest I descend into page-long strings of swear words.
Although I suggest Pun-Pun use a mirror of opposition on the Moritverse. That oughta teach it...

Also, this thread DOES give me the interestiing idea for a campaign- The Universersal Destroyer is approaching the Great Wheel, and the only one who can stop it is this level 1 Kobold Commoner named Pun-Pun who was foretold to be the only one to have enough power to stop it... And it's the PC's job to make sure he gets that power!

GoC
2007-10-15, 12:33 PM
Heh.
Buugipopuu was trying to say that Pun-Pun can't use Mortiverse's "Divine Rank=Aleph_w" loop (requiring a certain epic spell) because "Pun-Pun isn't aware of the spell's existence, due to it not knowing every spell.". XD

Of course the fact that Pun-Pun knows every epic spell with a description under 10^100 words and a developement time under 100 billion years doesn't matter...:smallamused:

PS Interestingly the number of epic spells are not in fact Aleph_1 because there's no such thing as an epic spell with an infinite description...

PSS I think I may register an that forum just to participate in this discussion...

Indon
2007-10-15, 12:39 PM
PunPun's only ECL 1. :smallbiggrin:

I had the impression that the ECL 1 version required far more DM permissiveness than is normally assumed for even character optimization exercises?

AlterForm
2007-10-15, 04:52 PM
DC 25 Knowledge Check to call Pazuzu

Wish for a Candle of Invocation with your granted wish

Summon an Efreeti/Genie/whatever (the one that wont try to rip you off)

Use your three wishes to wish for stuff and more wishes.

???

Profit!

Alleine
2007-10-15, 06:39 PM
Looking at what I can see from the IH stuff, it looks like it isn't really compatible with WotC stuff. It also made no attempt to be professional or balanced, or ,IMO, intelligent.

AlterForm
2007-10-16, 07:56 AM
Looking at what I can see from the IH stuff, it looks like it isn't really compatible with WotC stuff. It also made no attempt to be professional or balanced, or ,IMO, intelligent.

You have IH? Well damn, if you wouldn't mind filling the rest of us in...we're mostly flying blind! :smalleek: As far as I'm aware, nobody on PunPun's side really knows how any of IH, its gods, and its cosmology works.

Solo
2007-10-16, 08:07 AM
Next, Pun-Pun gives himself the ability "Superblink: Any time that Pun-Pun blinks, Mortiverse is destroyed." If Mortiverse copies this ability, it would read "Superblink: Any time that Mortiverse blinks, Mortiverse is destroyed"

When you learn a spell Sarda casts to hurt you, you learn to cast a spell that hurts you.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-16, 09:07 AM
Ao exists outside of the divine cosmology. Note that he can demote any other being at will. That includes the lame-ass kobold with the retch-worthy name. He simply make that kobold never exist.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-16, 09:44 AM
Pun-Pun can just create AO counter: Every time AO acts or inacts, Pun-Pun attains AO's abilities before AO acts. Also, Pun-Pun has 3 rounds to act 'fore AO.

AO can't mess with this, he doesn't have enough power. If anyone can do something, I'd say it is The Superior, the guy AO serves. Nobody knows who The Superior is, but he is acknowledged to be.

PS: The Superior is likely Gygax, much like The Living Tribunal's Superior is Stan Lee.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-10-16, 09:47 AM
Ao was statted out by DiceFreaks to be a DvR 24 Deity. The Platonic Form of the Good is DvR 29. Punpun has an infinitely high Divine Rank. Pun-Pun can win this fight :smallwink: .

Simu'ed by Azerian Kelimon.