Durkon's lucky plan

[littlebum2002]

Durkon's plan seemed pretty ill conceived to me. He threw the hammer, hoping it would break through the ceiling, hoping that Thor would then direct it to break off part of the roof, hoping that the new part of the roof would then crack the table, and hoping that one of the council members would remember that obscure part of the law in the 6 seconds or so it would take the last dominated elder to vote. It just seemed like there were WAY too many variables, especially considering and of them failing would mean the immediate end of the world.

However, I was thinking of a way that a couple of the variables could be eliminated.

1) What did Thor tell Durkon? It seems like he told Durkon "There's a special hammer in the statue and here is how to get it". But maybe he told Durkon "There's a special hammer in the statue and here is how to get it. When the time comes, send it to the sky and i'll handle the rest".

Then, once the hammer crashed through the ceiling, Thor took control of it and made sure it hit just the right place to cause structural collapse.

2) (This is the important one). It wasn't necessary for Old Goatee guy to remember the table law Why? Because once the table was broken, continuing the meeting would be a violation of Dwarven law. Dark Dominated Guy couldn't have voted, because he would have turned to stone for continuing the meeting with a broken table.

Thoughts?

[Schroeswald]

The only one of those points that is at all lucky is what your number 2 solution fixes, its a returning hammer, it will return, he knows its strength because why wouldn't he? He throws a returning hammer he knows will break the ceiling up, and it returns and breaks the ceiling again, dropping stone and breaking the table, now the meeting can't continue

[hroþila]

I find (b) very contrived. I don't see how that would be a breach of dwarven law. But it's irrelevant regardless - if no elders remembered the rule, and assuming Dvalin didn't say anything himself, then Sigdi would just have to tell them. Any votes cast after the table was destroyed wouldn't count even if that dominated elder had spoken.

As for (a), direct divine intervention is plausible in light of the dialogue, but not essential. Durkon's pa caused a cave-in in a similar way, which was referenced just before the act. Durkon was pretty sure he knew how to make a significant portion of the roof to collapse, and that should be enough for his plan to work. It was certainly possible that the falling rocks wouldn't break the table, which is a very sturdy object. In that sense, Durkon was lucky I guess, but that seems to be the only variable at play. And anyway, that only makes it "ill-conceived" if there were alternatives. Remember this was plan B.

[factotum]

Plus, "Thor will help me" isn't exactly a chancy thing, is it? He's a powerful cleric of Thor who's actually been directly given a mission by his god, I'm pretty sure relying on a little help from that direction isn't unreasonable. It might have been more satisfying if it had been Durkon's own knowledge of stone that allowed him to hit the ceiling at just the right point to dislodge the rock that breaks the table, but what we got is entirely reasonable given the story so far.

[Quebbster]

To be fair, it was "tha backup plan" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1172.html). Time was running out, so Durkon took what action he could and it seems to have been just enough.

[Peelee]

Frankly, I doubt Thor lifted a finger there to begin with. He was prepared to be with Hel for a good while; it reads to me like Sigdi's devotion is showing. After all, Durkon surrendered to Miko believing Thor wanted him to when we know for a fact that was wildly inaccurate. Characters can ascribe things to their gods without it needing to be strictly true.

[CriticalFailure]

Frankly, I doubt Thor lifted a finger there to begin with. He was prepared to be with Hel for a good while; it reads to me like Sigdi's devotion is showing. After all, Durkon surrendered to Miko believing Thor wanted him to when we know for a fact that was wildly inaccurate. Characters can ascribe things to their gods without it needing to be strictly true.

To be fair, Thor does care a lot more about stopping Hel from destroying this world and with it any immediate hope of stopping the cycle than he did about the petty personal details of the Order's interactions with Miko.

[xroads]

Durkon's plan seemed pretty ill conceived to me. He threw the hammer, hoping it would break through the ceiling, hoping that Thor would then direct it to break off part of the roof, hoping that the new part of the roof would then crack the table, and hoping that one of the council members would remember that obscure part of the law in the 6 seconds or so it would take the last dominated elder to vote. It just seemed like there were WAY too many variables, especially considering and of them failing would mean the immediate end of the world.


He's a cleric. Faith is basically his shtick. And as factotum points out, he has more reasons than normal to expect Thor to help.

[Dion]

Characters can ascribe things to their gods without it needing to be strictly true.

This is true.

And, as a reader, I am free to see things in the comic that aren’t there. And I like to believe Thor caught the hammer and threw it back to Durkon.

Of course, I need to find a way to say “I want to believe this happened” instead of “This happened”, because that nuance doesn’t always cone across well on this forum.

[GloatingSwine]

This is true.

And, as a reader, I am free to see things in the comic that aren’t there. And I like to believe Thor caught the hammer and threw it back to Durkon.

Of course, I need to find a way to say “I want to believe this happened” instead of “This happened”, because that nuance doesn’t always cone across well on this forum.

I dunno, a returning hammer that relies on this comic's version of Thor, a being with roughly the attention span of a professional wrestling referee, to return it seems like a poor bet.

[Schroeswald]

This is true.

And, as a reader, I am free to see things in the comic that aren’t there. And I like to believe Thor caught the hammer and threw it back to Durkon.

Of course, I need to find a way to say “I want to believe this happened” instead of “This happened”, because that nuance doesn’t always cone across well on this forum.

That's how all returning weapons work, whoever imbued the magic in it is playing catch with those who threw it, for some strange reason no one is counting it as an appearance of Thor though.

[warmachine]

I reckon it was luck. Whilst the gods won't unilaterally intervene to avoid divine escalation and kicked over ant hills, they don't have a problem reminding mortals they exist. Assuming an object bearing their holy symbol and thrown by one of their Clerics grants the gods license to make a signal, it'd be more expedient for Thor to divert the hammer into the table to break it, rather than dropping a large section of roof. When you have a message to convey, use something associated with you to remove any doubt about the sender. Add a clap of thunder for effect. The absence of this is inconsistent with divine intervention.

A counter argument is Thor won't be so rude at a meeting arranged for Dvalin. But I'm going with a request by a Cleric at the Cleric's expense grants license to send an unsubtle message.

[Dion]

I dunno, a returning hammer that relies on this comic's version of Thor, a being with roughly the attention span of a professional wrestling referee, to return it seems like a poor bet.

I don’t see why Thor would only be allowed to catch and throw hammers that rely on him?

[Fyraltari]

I dunno, a returning hammer that relies on this comic's version of Thor, a being with roughly the attention span of a professional wrestling referee, to return it seems like a poor bet.
Thor has been consistently portrayed as laser-focused on the issues facing the order this whole book. Turns out that people pay more attention when the stakes actually matter, who knew?

[Rogar Demonblud]

it'd be more expedient for Thor to divert the hammer into the table to break it, rather than dropping a large section of roof.

It's a Hammer of Thunderbolts. It returns right to the place it was thrown from, and does not go anywhere else. For an artifact, it's kind of useless, since it means you can't move anywhere else. All someone has to do to disarm you is bull rush to push you out of your square. Also, you can't use it while riding, flying or on a river. Or falling, even, although it will follow you down to ground level in that case.

[Dion]

Also, you can't use it while riding, flying or on a river.

On a river? Like, it won’t cross running water?

[warmachine]

It's a Hammer of Thunderbolts. It returns right to the place it was thrown from, and does not go anywhere else. For an artifact, it's kind of useless, since it means you can't move anywhere else. All someone has to do to disarm you is bull rush to push you out of your square. Also, you can't use it while riding, flying or on a river. Or falling, even, although it will follow you down to ground level in that case.
Gods are so powerful, they can grant 9th level spells to beings on another plane. Diverting a returning hammer into a table isn't a problem.

[Schroeswald]

It's a Hammer of Thunderbolts. It returns right to the place it was thrown from, and does not go anywhere else. For an artifact, it's kind of useless, since it means you can't move anywhere else. All someone has to do to disarm you is bull rush to push you out of your square. Also, you can't use it while riding, flying or on a river. Or falling, even, although it will follow you down to ground level in that case.

Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t the Class and Level Geekery people say otherwise and call it the Hammer of Loki Sucks.

[Rogar Demonblud]

On a river? Like, it won’t cross running water?

No, but it will return to where you were. Which isn't where you are now. Well, I suppose if you're on something like an anchored raft you'll still be in the same place, but otherwise you'll be {flow rate} downstream, so you'll need to both swim back upstream and dive to find your artifact.

Edit: No, they named it that as a joke because of the password to open the storage bin. It isn't clear from the art if it's supposed to be a Medium or Large weapon, but even a Large weapon can be wielded one handed if you have a high enough Strength score (say, because you're wearing magic gauntlets and a magic belt).

[Fyraltari]

Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t the Class and Level Geekery people say otherwise and call it the Hammer of Loki Sucks.

It's called like that because that was the statue's password to get it.

[xroads]

In 5e, high level clerics have a percent chance to call in direct divine intervention. Out of curiosities sake, did 3.0/3.5 clerics have a similar ability? That could be an RAW way to explain Durkon's plan.

[D.One]

It's called like that because that was the statue's password to get it.


Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t the Class and Level Geekery people say otherwise and call it the Hammer of Loki Sucks.

Indeed, this hammer apparently has some differences from the RAW Hammer of Thunderbolts, one of them being its size.

That said, as I commented in the Geekery thread, the Hammer of LokiSucks is enough Hammer of Thunderbolts for me. :smallwink:



In 5e, high level clerics have a percent chance to call in direct divine intervention. Out of curiosities sake, did 3.0/3.5 clerics have a similar ability? That could be an RAW way to explain Durkon's plan.

The closest thing I remember for that was the spell Miracle (a Wish equivalent, but usually safer and more powerful).

[Peelee]

In 5e, high level clerics have a percent chance to call in direct divine intervention. Out of curiosities sake, did 3.0/3.5 clerics have a similar ability? That could be an RAW way to explain Durkon's plan.

3.x did not, but it's not needed anyway because it's already a returning hammer and doesn't need divine intervention IMO.

[Yirggzmb]

No, but it will return to where you were. Which isn't where you are now.

Is this a RAW thing, or an assumption based on the fact the hammer didn't smash statue!Durkon? Because I could easily see The Giant writing it as a proper returning weapon, even if it wasn't strictly RAW, because it just makes more sense.

[brian 333]

It's been in the statue for long enough that it was forgotten, so perhaps it is a 1st ed. Dwarven Throwing Hammer which always returns to the wielder. As long as the wielder is a dwarf, that is.

[Jasdoif]

No, but it will return to where you were. Which isn't where you are now.Is this a RAW thing, or an assumption based on the fact the hammer didn't smash statue!Durkon?If you can't catch a returning weapon or have moved since you threw it, it falls to the ground in the square it was thrown from. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#returning)

[Yirggzmb]

If you can't catch a returning weapon or have moved since you threw it, it falls to the ground in the square it was thrown from. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#returning)

Fair enough

[BaronOfHell]

This thread gave me three thoughts.

1) If it was Thor who directed the hammer, should he have also been turned to stone?

2) If not, would anyone who simply destroyed the roof of the meeting from the outside (e.g. had the order been evil and not cared about the elders this might had been a possible plan of action) have been able to stop Hel's plot?

3) If the events of what happened really depended a lot on luck, wouldn't it be a sure thing anyway, as Elan said: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html?
Then again I remember a strip somewhere, where it didn't work out like that despite being all dramatically appropriate, and it was suggested the person in question had been spending too much time with Elan.

[Jannoire]

1) If it was Thor who directed the hammer, should he have also been turned to stone?

2) If not, would anyone who simply destroyed the roof of the meeting from the outside (e.g. had the order been evil and not cared about the elders this might had been a possible plan of action) have been able to stop Hel's plot?

3) If the events of what happened really depended a lot on luck, wouldn't it be a sure thing anyway, as Elan said: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html?
Then again I remember a strip somewhere, where it didn't work out like that despite being all dramatically appropriate, and it was suggested the person in question had been spending too much time with Elan.

1. No. Thor is not within range of the blue shell, so no turning to stone.

2. Yes, if they were able to destroy the ceiling in a way that would destroy the table.

3. You're likely referring to the shot of Haley on Redcloak during the siege on Azure City. And no, luck and story don't guarantee auto-success just because drama.
If every in-a-million-chance would work, Belkar would've made his save against Malack's domination

[RatElemental]

3. You're likely referring to the shot of Haley on Redcloak during the siege on Azure City. And no, luck and story don't guarantee auto-success just because drama.
If every in-a-million-chance would work, Belkar would've made his save against Malack's domination

Or maybe since Belkar's will save was so low he was guaranteed to make it and that made Malack successfully dominating him a million to one chance in turn and thus he definitely succeeded.

[BaronOfHell]

2. Yes, if they were able to destroy the ceiling in a way that would destroy the table.


As I see it, the problem with destroying the roof is that it will likely also negatively affect several innocents, but in the situation where the roof is destroyed, if the sunlight alone is not enough to stop the vampires, then I can't see why you can't just blast the table too from the outside.

[xroads]

This thread gave me three thoughts.

1) If it was Thor who directed the hammer, should he have also been turned to stone?

2) If not, would anyone who simply destroyed the roof of the meeting from the outside (e.g. had the order been evil and not cared about the elders this might had been a possible plan of action) have been able to stop Hel's plot?

3) If the events of what happened really depended a lot on luck, wouldn't it be a sure thing anyway, as Elan said: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html?
Then again I remember a strip somewhere, where it didn't work out like that despite being all dramatically appropriate, and it was suggested the person in question had been spending too much time with Elan.


He's a god, so no. I doubt the magic of the dome would of even tickled. Instead, Thor's got other rules/laws that he needs to worry about (like no direct intervention for example).


Probably. But arguably it wouldn't of been as good of a story. And I doubt any of the good aligned members of the Order would of been real hip to that plan. Or any of their dwarven allies for that matter.


Perhaps that's why it was a plan B to begin with. Early on in the Order's career, they probably wouldn't of wanted to gamble. But after having hung around with Elan :elan:, maybe the impossible plans seem more possible.

[AutomatedTeller]

I dunno - this doesn't seem to be luck - it seems to be a well-thought out backup. Durkon

1) Knows the law
2) Has a powerful magic item that behaves in ways that are predictable.
3) Had a father who did something similar
4) Has a TEAM LEADER who has done something similar.
5) Is on a team with a long history of breaking stuff

This almost feels inevitable.

[factotum]

As I see it, the problem with destroying the roof is that it will likely also negatively affect several innocents, but in the situation where the roof is destroyed, if the sunlight alone is not enough to stop the vampires, then I can't see why you can't just blast the table too from the outside.

You already gave the reason in your own comment--the chance of innocents being hurt in the crossfire. If Durkon et al. didn't care about the lives of the councillors they could have just killed them all and presumably forced some sort of re-election to elect new representatives, which would delay things for weeks, but they don't do that because they're the good guys.

[Squire Doodad]

You already gave the reason in your own comment--the chance of innocents being hurt in the crossfire. If Durkon et al. didn't care about the lives of the councillors they could have just killed them all and presumably forced some sort of re-election to elect new representatives, which would delay things for weeks, but they don't do that because they're the good guys.

Honestly, slaughtering everyone would be hopelessly inefficient; they'd just have to kill off the dominated ones and then explain the scenario, possibly with threat of violence. This is all purely hypothetical for the "Evil" Order, and should not be treated as a realistic scenario, because that would still be downright atrocious.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Honestly, slaughtering everyone would be hopelessly inefficient; they'd just have to kill off the dominated ones and then explain the scenario, possibly with threat of violence. This is all purely hypothetical for the "Evil" Order, and should not be treated as a realistic scenario, because that would still be downright atrocious.

"Well, the vampires who dominated some of us wants us to vote yes, but this bunch of mass-murderers clearly wants us to vote no, so I think I'll go with my gut, and vote yes because that's what the honorable thing is, and at this point, both options seem to be favoured by evil beings, so if I'm about to die, it better be doing the honorable thing".

Grey Wolf

[RMS Oceanic]

Durkon had faith in his god. It paid off.

[Chronos]

Durkon's plan didn't work. His plan was to do it "just like his pa", collapsing the entire roof and thus exposing all of the vampires to sunlight. Instead, only a small portion of the roof collapsed. But whether by luck or by divine intervention, that small portion still ended up being enough.

[Schroeswald]

Durkon's plan didn't work. His plan was to do it "just like his pa", collapsing the entire roof and thus exposing all of the vampires to sunlight. Instead, only a small portion of the roof collapsed. But whether by luck or by divine intervention, that small portion still ended up being enough.

He had a backup plan, his Plan A may not have worked but Plan B did.

[Squire Doodad]

Durkon's plan didn't work. His plan was to do it "just like his pa", collapsing the entire roof and thus exposing all of the vampires to sunlight. Instead, only a small portion of the roof collapsed. But whether by luck or by divine intervention, that small portion still ended up being enough.

His father saved the day by collapsing a cave and stopping anything from getting through. Durkon saved the day by collapsing a ceiling and stopping a vote from getting through.

Durkon didn't need to sunshock the vampires, he needed to stop the vote. And he knew the rules. So he went with a simple rule.

It wouldn't have mattered whether or not the elder mentioned the rule (that just was for the audience's benefit); the moment the next member voted, they would have attempted to vote during a postponed meeting and thus be stoned, and as such could not have their vote processed. Or maybe they wouldn't be stoned as the meeting was already postponed? Something to that effect.

[deuterio12]

His father saved the day by collapsing a cave and stopping anything from getting through. Durkon saved the day by collapsing a ceiling and stopping a vote from getting through.

Father also killed himself doing that (and probably others) and also took one of his wife's arms to go along with it.

Durkon performed a laser-pointed collapse.

If Durkon can perform laser-pointed cave collapse that hit only what he wanted to hit with zero collateral damage, why hasn't he done so before?

And who wants to bet we'll never see it again? Because being able to make rocks fall with that degree of acuraccy sounds really handy for adventurers.

I guess for the same reasons Durkon never thought to mention "HEY GUYS MY CLAN IS THE MIGHTIEST DWARVEN MILITARY FORCE IN THE WORLD BY FAR SERIOUSLY WE CAN STORM THE HIGHEST SEATS OF POWER OF MY PEOPLE IN MINUTES! I COULD GIVE THEM A CALL AND THEY'LL BE HERE IN A JIFFY, THEY ALL LOOKING FOR HONORABLE DEATHS IN BATTLE ANYWAY HOW DOES THAT SOUND? Or we could let that hobgoblin army just overrun Azure city, whatever."

[Peelee]

If Durkon can perform laser-pointed cave collapse that hit only what he wanted to hit with zero collateral damage, why hasn't he done so before?
How many times do you think it would have helped?

And who wants to bet we'll never see it again? Because being able to make rocks fall with that degree of acuraccy sounds really handy for adventurers.
How many times in the future do you think it will ever help?

I guess for the same reasons Durkon never thought to mention "HEY GUYS MY CLAN IS THE MIGHTIEST DWARVEN MILITARY FORCE IN THE WORLD BY FAR SERIOUSLY WE CAN STORM THE HIGHEST SEATS OF POWER OF MY PEOPLE IN MINUTES! I COULD GIVE THEM A CALL AND THEY'LL BE HERE IN A JIFFY, THEY ALL LOOKING FOR HONORABLE DEATHS IN BATTLE ANYWAY HOW DOES THAT SOUND? Or we could let that hobgoblin army just overrun Azure city, whatever."
If a few guards and elderly (some of whom decry their very responsibility as largely useless) is the highest seat of power, I'm pretty sure a templated potted plant could storm it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Templated potted plant. I have the underboss for my new players. Thanks Peelee.

[goodpeople25]

If a few guards and elderly (some of whom decry their very responsibility as largely useless) is the highest seat of power, I'm pretty sure a templated potted plant could storm it.
I'm guessing Planty the Potted Plant would have the Fedora template, OWCA agent seems more like a class.

[factotum]

Durkon's plan didn't work. His plan was to do it "just like his pa", collapsing the entire roof and thus exposing all of the vampires to sunlight.

Gonna need a citation on that one. Considering what Sigdi said in strip #1174 I'm pretty sure that doing something with "the rules" was the plan all along. Problem with collapsing the entire roof is as I said above--you're going to hurt or even kill innocent people, because you can't possibly direct all that falling rock. Directing *one* falling rock onto a nice large target like the table is much safer.

[Lvl45DM!]

Father also killed himself doing that (and probably others) and also took one of his wife's arms to go along with it.

Durkon performed a laser-pointed collapse.

If Durkon can perform laser-pointed cave collapse that hit only what he wanted to hit with zero collateral damage, why hasn't he done so before?

And who wants to bet we'll never see it again? Because being able to make rocks fall with that degree of acuraccy sounds really handy for adventurers.

I guess for the same reasons Durkon never thought to mention "HEY GUYS MY CLAN IS THE MIGHTIEST DWARVEN MILITARY FORCE IN THE WORLD BY FAR SERIOUSLY WE CAN STORM THE HIGHEST SEATS OF POWER OF MY PEOPLE IN MINUTES! I COULD GIVE THEM A CALL AND THEY'LL BE HERE IN A JIFFY, THEY ALL LOOKING FOR HONORABLE DEATHS IN BATTLE ANYWAY HOW DOES THAT SOUND? Or we could let that hobgoblin army just overrun Azure city, whatever."

Laser pointed collapse that...broke a table.
Its not like he's gonna be able to hurt Xykon much with that anyway.

{scrubbed} its about 15 low level characters with less than a half dozen mid level and maybe 1 high level. Those guys couldn't have taken Tarquins army, they beat up like 4 guards and 3 vampires.

[hroþila]

Deuterio, maybe you should pay more attention to the comic if you want to find plotholes in it. This is explicitly not the "highest seats of power", this is an almost completely ceremonial and powerless body that has long been replaced by different governing institutions.

[Fyraltari]

I'm pretty sure a templated potted plant could storm it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mWTaCPxtjQ

[Dion]

Father also killed himself doing that (and probably others) and also took one of his wife's arms to go along with it.

Those cornflakes must taste delicious, because you can’t seem to stop eating them.

[Peelee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mWTaCPxtjQ

I need to ask my FIL to show me that episode, I didn't even know the Huns had that kind of technology!

[Fyraltari]

I need to ask my FIL to show me that episode, I didn't even know the Huns had that kind of technology!

What's a FIL?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Templated potted plant. I have the underboss for my new players. Thanks Peelee.

I'll have you know that a templated potted plant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15747023&postcount=236) is no mere underboss. Right-hand thing at the very least.

Also, I see Deuterio continues to complain about how his headcanon doesn't make sense instead of, you know, fixing his headcanon so it matches the canon. Plus ça change and all that.

@Fyraltari: Father In Law

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

I'll have you know that a templated potted plant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15747023&postcount=236) is no mere underboss. Right-hand thing at the very least.
A sentient potted plant that is not their own boss is a disgrace to their kind.


Also, I see Deuterio continues to complain about how his headcanon doesn't make sense instead of, you know, fixing his headcanon so it matches the canon. Plus ça change and all that.
I'm starting to think a club might form around this attitude.


@Fyraltari: Father In Law

Thanks.

[Peelee]

A sentient potted plant that is not their own boss is a disgrace to their kind.

The sentient potted plants agree, having all joined various MLMs.

[Fyraltari]

The sentient potted plants agree, having all joined various MLMs.

...

Now, you're just messing with me.

...

Multi-Level Marketing?

[Peelee]

...

Now, you're just messing with me.

...

Multi-Level Marketing?

I was amused that I'd just thrown one out you hadn't gotten already, I will admit. And yep, it does indeed mean pyramid scheme multi-level marketing.

[Fyraltari]

I was amused that I'd just thrown one out you hadn't gotten already, I will admit. And yep, it does indeed mean pyramid scheme multi-level marketing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXlvy3sTTBk

[Squire Doodad]

I was amused that I'd just thrown one out you hadn't gotten already, I will admit. And yep, it does indeed mean pyramid scheme multi-level marketing.

I thought it was Multi-facted Lordship Makers.

[KorvinStarmast]

Those cornflakes must taste delicious, because you can’t seem to stop eating them. Is it your estimate that d12 peed in that bowl of nutritious breakfast cereal themselves?

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don't know about Dion, but it's now my headcanon.

And I took my own advice about the IL.

[HorizonWalker]

Forgive my dumb question, but what does "cornflakes" mean in this context? The only internet joke about cornflakes I know has to do with Warhammer, and I very much don't see a connection.

[Xyril]

I guess for the same reasons Durkon never thought to mention "HEY GUYS MY CLAN IS THE MIGHTIEST DWARVEN MILITARY FORCE IN THE WORLD BY FAR SERIOUSLY WE CAN STORM THE HIGHEST SEATS OF POWER OF MY PEOPLE IN MINUTES! I COULD GIVE THEM A CALL AND THEY'LL BE HERE IN A JIFFY, THEY ALL LOOKING FOR HONORABLE DEATHS IN BATTLE ANYWAY HOW DOES THAT SOUND? Or we could let that hobgoblin army just overrun Azure city, whatever."

1) As had been established ad nauseum in pretty much every thread where you make this argument, this council is not the highest seats of power in dwarven lands. It's clearly a largely ceremonial body with so little political power that THEY MOVED THE GOVERNMENT TO AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CITY AND NOBODY WAS BOTHERED ABOUT LEAVING THOSE PEOPLE BEHIND. Think about this for a minute: This council geographically distant from the seat of REAL power, chances are every single person actively participating. This implies not only that the council itself has no actual power over dwarven affairs, but also that EVERY DWARF ACTIVELY SERVING ON THIS COUNCIL has no actual power over dwarven affairs. Anybody who simultaneously served on the Council of Clans and the actual dwarven parliament would miss these surprise convocations because they'd be busy spending all their time in Thane City, governing. Anyone with substantial economic power would have to spend their time in the economic hubs of the dwarven nation--this could include Firmament, but we have no reason to believe it does. A powerful military officer would also be in Thane City, or a military base, or away on assignment somewhere.

2) Azure City is geographically distant from Dwarven Lands--so far, in fact, that they're governed by two separate pantheons defined by opposing cardinal directions on the compass. Before V's soul slice, a major plot point was how difficult it was to keep the Azurite fleet running and to continuously search for supplies and a new home. This implies that--even if Durkon's family were the unstoppable force you seem to think they are--the Order had no good way to transport them to Azure City to fight.

3) Xykon's army is arguably stronger than THE HIGHEST SEATS OF POWER anyway. They conquered Azure City and went right through THEIR most powerful military force to do it. Sure, they had Miko's inadvertent help, but her help mostly served to neutralize Soon's Epic-level ass-pull. Even with Soon's last resort intact, the ghosts would have defeated Xykon and Redcloak and saved the gate, but they might not have been enough to prevent the fall of Azure City or its occupation by the surviving goblinoid army. The regular Azure City military was already slaughtered--as were the paladins who made the ghosts in the first place--so the rest of the city was already lost, and depending on any time limits or movement restrictions on the martyr ghosts, they may not have been able to do more than temporarily protect a small enclave in hostile territory.

So we don't know that Durkon's family, or THE HIGHEST SEATS OF DWARVEN POWER, or even the entirety of the Northern nations could have beaten the goblins. Their alliance was unprecedented, they already defeated THE HIGHEST SEATS OF POWER in Azure City, and that was enough to scare all of Azure City's allies off. Just imagine this: A country attacked and conquered the USA so quickly that the rest of NATO just said, "Nope, not our problem." (Okay, also imagine this was 15 years ago and they all still liked us.) Do you seriously think that all you need to liberate the country is the crack team of French misfits who once stormed THE HIGHEST SEATS OF POWER in Rome, pushing right through the Swiss Guard?

[The MunchKING]

Forgive my dumb question, but what does "cornflakes" mean in this context? The only internet joke about cornflakes I know has to do with Warhammer, and I very much don't see a connection.

I believe the colloquial expression said to someone who gets easily upset over everything is "Who pissed in YOUR Cornflakes?" Which of course implies the real reason they are upset is the aforementioned ruined cornflakes and they are taking it out on everything else.

[RatElemental]

I'm strating to think a club might form around this attitude.

The forum was due another Miko I suppose. Kind of strange that it isn't focused on a single character like it was with Andi and Hilgya (and the eponymous Miko) though.

[Schroeswald]

The forum was due another Miko I suppose. Kind of strange that it isn't focused on a single character like it was with Andi and Hilgya (and the eponymous Miko) though.

Nah, more than one person are on every side with Miko and Hilgya (I haven't seen much of the debate over Andi so I can't judge her), Deuterio is the only person on the "Thundershields are Mary Sues" side.

[Squire Doodad]

Nah, more than one person are on every side with Miko and Hilgya (I haven't seen much of the debate over Andi so I can't judge her), Deuterio is the only person on the "Thundershields are Mary Sues" side.

The Thundershields are a fun resolution and I really enjoyed it, but honestly it's a bunch of low to mid level people storming a building guarded by like 5 trained guards, Likeable Deathworm (occupied by the Order), and a couple of vampire clerics.

Hel's serving up some weak tea, and I think the horde of dwarves could take care of it.

[factotum]

Hel's serving up some weak tea, and I think the horde of dwarves could take care of it.

She doesn't really have much choice, when all's said and done. Frankly, if she has any sense she'll let Curly escape, rather than trying to use her to fight back--at least that way she has *one* cleric, who can, given time, make more; if the world does survive she's going to need those, since the bet will still be in effect.

[hroþila]

Let's remember that Hel's strongest tea was defeated by a once-in-a-millennium occurrence when he had pretty much already won.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Let's remember that Hel's strongest tea was defeated by a once-in-a-millennium occurrence when he had pretty much already won.

The same thing that made it a strong tea was what made the once-in-a-millennium occurance likely, though. It's more a catch-22.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

The same thing that made it a strong tea was what made the once-in-a-millennium occurance likely, though. It's more a catch-22.

Grey Wolf

Hel's strongest tea was actually the time that she gave Thor some Earl Gray with cayenne sprinkled into it while he was trying to give his clerics spells.

[D.One]

Hel's strongest tea was actually the time that she gave Thor some Earl Gray with cayenne sprinkled into it while he was trying to give his clerics spells.

I believe Hel's stronger tea would be something likely worth of Thor's unsanitary ear canal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), but probably with more dwarfblood...

[Squire Doodad]

I believe Hel's stronger tea would be something likely worth of Thor's unsanitary ear canal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), but probably with more dwarfblood...

...point taken :smalleek: