Need advice for a rogue

[Trandir]

So I got to play a lv 11 PC that is the group skillmonkey.

Race: Core Halfling
Class level: rogue 10/ shadowdancer 1
ACF: Spell sense, Spell deflection, Distruptive strike
Ability scores: Str 8 Dex 22 Con 13 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 12
Feats: dodge, mobility, combat reflexes, darkstalker.
Skill ranks focused on: spot, listen, search, hide, move silently, bluff, disable device, open lock, tumble and UMD.

As special ability I took skill mastery in: spot, hide, move silently, tumble and UMD.

This is the PC in general. Does anyone have any advice for feats, classes and the likes to continue?
I am thinking of the second level of shadowdancer to take the basic rogue skills traded for the AcF and the item familiar feat.

[pabelfly]

You haven't got Weapon Finesse? Are you a ranged attacker or a melee combatant?

[Trandir]

You haven't got Weapon Finesse? Are you a ranged attacker or a melee combatant?

I would say that this halfling is an artist more than a fighter. But if I have to fight I would just hide and occasionally use distruptive attack with a hand crossbow to help the rest of the party. I can't do much else in combat since a rogue can do a single Sneak Attack per round.

[RNightstalker]

Sidenotes: in this table you get one sneak attack per round, take 10 means that you get a +10 on the roll but takes a couple of minutes to to but the rogue can do it on the fly, you get full HD and 4× skill ranks on every first level in any new class and new PrC, in this setting there is some sort of monopoly on the market of magic items so it's difficult to find one particular item and even if you where to find something for sale it comes from the DMG and it usually is sold for 3 times the regular price, but crafting doesn't have any particular restriction.

I don't know about why the Rogue was completely nerfed as that's their thing: SA. That's like saying casters get spells per week, not spells per day.

If the DM won't budge, ask about switching to a Scout. Still get the 8 skill points/level, still get trapfinding, still get bonus damage but skirmish alternates between damage bonus and AC bonus.

[Trandir]

Ok the scout might be better than a nerfed rogue but I'd like to use this character and not another one. Also I probably would have to die before switching PC. I am wondering why everyone on the playground thinks always for the combat as ultimate goal?

[Zaq]

Ok the scout might be better than a nerfed rogue but I'd like to use this character and not another one. Also I probably would have to die before switching PC. I am wondering why everyone on the playground thinks always for the combat as ultimate goal?

Also why does the scout thets trapfinding but no disable device? He is intended to just scout and then do nothing about the trap?

That was fixed in the errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) to Complete Adventurer.

[Trandir]

That was fixed in the errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) to Complete Adventurer.

Thanks, I still forget the errata.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I am wondering why everyone on the playground thinks always for the combat as ultimate goal?
Because combat is the bulk of the game. Most rogue class features relate to combat, and that's for a skill-heavy class.


Dodge and Mobility are terrible feats, and Combat Reflexes isn't good without a dangerous melee attack. You're basically burning three feats to get Hide in Plain Sight, and I'm not convinced it's worth it.

Taking the Dark template (also available as a magic item, ask your DM) frees up your feats to take Hand Crossbow Focus, Point Blank Shot, and Woodland Archer. That gives you something to do in combat (moving from cover to cover, sniping with a hand crossbow).

[Asmotherion]

As with everything else in D&D the answear is obvious: Play a Wizard.

On a more serious tone: in order to RP you need to survive combat; That also means contributing to the fight or you're dead weight to the party: Your mere presance adjusts the encounter CR for one more PC and if that PC doesn't help with the encounter it's gonna be harder for the rest of the group. Combat is a crucial part of D&D even on an RP heavy campain.

[Trandir]

Because combat is the bulk of the game. Most rogue class features relate to combat, and that's for a skill-heavy class.


Right but there is also a lot of fluff do do in between and to just avoid it completely.



Dodge and Mobility are terrible feats, and Combat Reflexes isn't good without a dangerous melee attack. You're basically burning three feats to get Hide in Plain Sight, and I'm not convinced it's worth it.


Yea true that is an heavy price. In this table the rogue is more like a thief and since he is almost completely unable to fight I looked around to find a decent way to get Hide in Plain Sight and Shadowdancer seemed the best way. 2 crappy feats and 1 useless for the ability to hide everywhere as long as there is a shadow seemed resonable.



Taking the Dark template (also available as a magic item, ask your DM) frees up your feats to take Hand Crossbow Focus, Point Blank Shot, and Woodland Archer. That gives you something to do in combat (moving from cover to cover, sniping with a hand crossbow).

Well I tryed to get one of the two or three dark/shadow templates this way I could trade some HP for a good bonus on hide and hide in plain sight. But they all got rejected so only a couple of PrC remained and Shadowdancer was the least bad.

Also, maybe I wasn't clear on the first post but I am not asking help to build a PC but if anyone had any advice from that point on.

I know that with the nerf on SA even a fighter 10/ rogue 1 (that this way gets 32 skill ranks with +0 int more than enough to cover 14 ranks in both disable device and open lock) would be better in combat and the fighter is bad.

[Trandir]

As with everything else in D&D the answear is obvious: Play a Wizard.

On a more serious tone: in order to RP you need to survive combat; That also means contributing to the fight or you're dead weight to the party: Your mere presance adjusts the encounter CR for one more PC and if that PC doesn't help with the encounter it's gonna be harder for the rest of the group. Combat is a crucial part of D&D even on an RP heavy campain.

I posted another thread a couple of days ago explaining the situation of my party. And trust me one lv 11 PC doesn't have any weight compared to the others members. And nearly any level of optimisation (not including exploiting design flaws) would be enought to change my role from dead weight. But that's not the point of this thread

[RNightstalker]

Also, maybe I wasn't clear on the first post but I am not asking help to build a PC but if anyone had any advice from that point on.

I know that with the nerf on SA even a fighter 10/ rogue 1 (that this way gets 32 skill ranks with +0 int more than enough to cover 14 ranks in both disable device and open lock) would be better in combat and the fighter is bad.

I apologize, that's fair.

Going forward, you may consider some ToB stuff like a swordsage for shadow hand maneuvers that would go along quite well with the running theme.

Also, you might want to consider Spring Attack since you've already got the prerequisites. You can get back out of combat if you want to avoid melee/combat at all. Don't forget you can use your Tumble to avoid AoO's.

A Rogue Blade gives you some blink capability to attack from concealment if there aren't any flanking/flat-footed opportunities for your SA, as well as giving enemies a miss chance on you.

Back to SA: if you only get one SA per round, might as well make it count. You can go for the Craven feat that adds 1 damage/CL, and Bracers of Murder that allow you to reroll 1's on your SA dice, as well as giving you other bonuses. A Shadow Hand stance will also add 2D6 to your SA, and there are 1-level dips that give you SA to jack up your total as well.

[Calthropstu]

Double down on stealth based skills, feats and attacks, snipe weak creatures without breaking stealth. Look for feats, spells and abilities that extend the reach of SA.
If you can manage to start doing that, you won't be "dead weight" in most encounters.

[Trandir]

Ok I got an idea for the character progression:
Lv 12 take the second level in shadowdancer and item familiar feat
Lv 13 the npc class expert for the 4×(6+2) skill ranks the +2 on two saves and a bonus feat (skill mastery I think concentration)
Lv 14 Swordsage for a better stealth and maneuvers for both stealth and defense or Warblade for the same things minus the stealth
Lv 15 expert to get even more Skill Mastery and thus getting at least a +29 on will and fortitude saves with diamond mind maneuvers.

Multiclassing this way would allow me to do a skill monkey with a +10 on almost everything and that can tank almost any weird spell when and if I am noticed.
Yes in combat would still suck but this take advantage of those dumbass house rules this DM uses

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Since you're limited to 1 SA per round, that means you're free to move and attack. I think it would be well worth it to take a couple levels of Scout (3 to be precise), and then as you're 15th level feat take Swift Ambusher (maybe throw in a level of Swordsage or another level of Shadow Dancer in there, too).

This gives you an extra 4d6 damage any round you move at least 10ft, as well as +3 to your AC, and those'll keep rising as you take levels in Rogue (in addition to SA damage). You can also increase it by another 2d6 by taking the Improved Skirmish feat, but then you have to move at least 20ft.

[pabelfly]

You haven't got Rapid Reload? You can reload that hand crossbow of yous as a free action.

[AnimeTheCat]

I don't know about why the Rogue was completely nerfed as that's their thing: SA. That's like saying casters get spells per week, not spells per day.

If the DM won't budge, ask about switching to a Scout. Still get the 8 skill points/level, still get trapfinding, still get bonus damage but skirmish alternates between damage bonus and AC bonus.
Original thread starting all of this stated that OP can't pick a base class (or any feature/option) outside of the PHB until level 5. Though with ACFs like spell reflection (level 2 rogue ACF) leads me to believe this is either not true or has been relaxed.


Yea true that is an heavy price. In this table the rogue is more like a thief and since he is almost completely unable to fight I looked around to find a decent way to get Hide in Plain Sight and Shadowdancer seemed the best way. 2 crappy feats and 1 useless for the ability to hide everywhere as long as there is a shadow seemed resonable.

Well I tryed to get one of the two or three dark/shadow templates this way I could trade some HP for a good bonus on hide and hide in plain sight. But they all got rejected so only a couple of PrC remained and Shadowdancer was the least bad.

Also, maybe I wasn't clear on the first post but I am not asking help to build a PC but if anyone had any advice from that point on.

I know that with the nerf on SA even a fighter 10/ rogue 1 (that this way gets 32 skill ranks with +0 int more than enough to cover 14 ranks in both disable device and open lock) would be better in combat and the fighter is bad.

In a previous thread, I mentioned a build that didn't have the 2 crappy feats and 1 useless prerequisites and got you BETTER than HIPS, including concealment. I'll repost it here in case you just glossed over it:

I just had another idea, you could take Rogue to level 5 and then transition over to Incarnate for the remaining levels and augment your skills with Solmelds. Really dig deep in to that skillmonkey vibe AND it helps your lack of magic items as you kinda just get to make your own. There are lots of good soulmelds that you can tailor for your unique situation, and as you get magic items you can just not bind that particular soulmeld. Some ones that I like, for rogues or any non-magical class in general, are Apparition Ribbon, Bluesteel Bracers, Crystal Helm (Bound), Enigma Helm (Bound), Fellmist Robe, Spellward Shirt (Spell Resistance is never a bad thing), Strongheart Vest, Vitality Belt (Waist Bind - Immune to Con damage and drain!!!), Wind Cloak (basically poor man's wind wall).

Some rogue specific ones that I like are Keeneye leses (brow bind for see invis), Lucky Dice (no downside, only upsides), Mage's Spectacles (Decipher Script, Spellcraft, UMD bonuses), Necrocarnum Circlet (only with Crown bind, get a beefy Necrocarnum Zombie pet/Flanking budy), Necrocarnum Shroud, Shadow Mantle (listen check bonuses and the later shoulder bind is awesome for a rogue), Sighting Gloves (for ranged rogues... they're ok. The hand bind removes your need for precise shot), Silvertongue Mask (Diplomacy and bluff, sense motive with Brow Bind, suggestion at-will with throat bind), Soulspark Familiar (ever present flanking buddy), Theft Gloves (disable dvice, open lock, sleight of hand bonuses), Truthseeker Goggles (Gather Information, Search, and Sense Motive bonuses).

All of those melds are JUST the useful ones from Incarnate. There are a couple (literally two I think) soulborn only ones that are neat and a whole bunch of Totemist ones that are worthwhile, I just think that Incarnate pairs better with Rogue than Totemist if you're goal is to be skillful.

You could also not take Incarnate, and just pick up a feat like Midnight Dodge to get an essentia pool of 1 (you would have to do this at level 6), and then start taking levels of Umbral Disciple until level 3. At level 3 you have the Embrace of Shadow class feature and 3 points of essentia so you can have 20% miss chance and Hide in Plain Sight (HIPS) at level 9. At level 12, you can improve this to 30% miss chance. Either way, You can have HIPS as this character to keep yourself safe, even if you completely stop progressing in Umbral Disciple at this point, though Sight of the Eyeless (level 7) gets you Bindsight 10 ft/essential invested, so that's pretty freaking good too. Plus, at level 7 you can have 20% concealment, HIPS, AND have 30 ft blindsight active all at once. Not bad IMO. Lastly, Kiss of the shadows is pretty awesome, especially since you're a little behind the strength curb. It will let you flank from outside of range of some enemies, especially those without reach, but maybe some with depending on how much Essentia you invest in it. You can't use the ability to make Attacks of Opportunity, but it's still useful for keeping out of danger while flaking. Umbral Disciple is SUPER in theme for Rogue too, so you don't have to worry about the DM going "It doesn't fit the theme!" The last line of the first paragraph says "Monks, Rogues, and Rangers can meet these requirements easily..." and the First line says "First and Foremost, an umbral disciple needs the ability to hide will..." which is exactly what rogues do.

The more I think about it, the more I think you would really benefit from a dive into the magic of incarnum book. It's a great resource. Play a small race (gnome is good for incarnum, get that Con bonus) Rogue 5/Incarnate 1/Umbral Disciple 5 or Rogue 6/Umbral Disciple 5, and don't worry about taking Fighter Bonus Feats on the rogue, stick to Sneak Attacks and Two Weapon Fighting or Ranged combat (with HIPS). You'll be able to use your SA pretty much every other round pretty easily and you'll have 20% miss chance which is better than AC in a lot of cases (especially when you're fighting against overwhelmingly strong opponents).

Some of that post is now rendered unimportant (so i've struck through it) because of the crappy ruling on Sneak Attack only once per round.

I'm just going to repeat another thing I said in some of your other threads as well. Just because you're saddled with some shifty rules from the DM, don't subjugate yourself to not having a good time, or count your character as dead from session 1. Give it a solid try, build the best (most fun) thing you can with the rules you've been given and plan for longevity. You can still go shadowdancer if you want to with it, just plan accordingly. But I think you'll get more bang for your buck using Incarnum and diving in to Umbral Disciple earlier. You may not even need the feat to do it, dip a Meldshaper class.

The hand you've been delt is not the best, but just because it's not the best hand doesn't mean you need to fold. Try to take as many tricks as you can and see where you land at the end of the round. If you're defeated and not having fun, then leave the table. But if you had fun despite the bad hand, keep going and see where you can take it.

[Trandir]

You haven't got Rapid Reload? You can reload that hand crossbow of yous as a free action.

Well no, I am hoping to find a quick reload crossbow. A simple +1 equivalent enchantment would save a feat.


Since you're limited to 1 SA per round, that means you're free to move and attack. I think it would be well worth it to take a couple levels of Scout (3 to be precise), and then as you're 15th level feat take Swift Ambusher (maybe throw in a level of Swordsage or another level of Shadow Dancer in there, too).

This gives you an extra 4d6 damage any round you move at least 10ft, as well as +3 to your AC, and those'll keep rising as you take levels in Rogue (in addition to SA damage). You can also increase it by another 2d6 by taking the Improved Skirmish feat, but then you have to move at least 20ft.

Ok this is more intresting but here are some consideration and doubts:
Precision damage such as sneak attack and skirmish do not stack right?
Is it worth investing 3 levels on scout? The first one qualify for swift ambusher but I would miss just 1d6 skirmish damage. The second and third level grants +1 to initiative and fortitude, uncanny dodge, fast movement and trackless step. Battle fortitude is the nicest thing here, 1d6 damage doesnt change much, I would rather get uncanny dodge for the second tine from shadowdancer, fast movement is good but a dip in barbarian has the same effect plus some nice bonus (12 hp, more skill ranks to fill the unloved rogue skills like appraise or disguise and some good alternatives for rage) and trackless step that I personally see as mostly useless since usually the rest of the party doesn't have it.

Sidenote: this DM is givin levels ad they were candies since he intend to take the campaign into epic levels territory. Also for reasons I am building a rogue mostly inclined thoward skill use because this PC is 6 levels behind the rest of the party. So I don't think that matters the 4d6 skirmish or the 6d6 sneak attack when the sorcerer throws 34d6 for disintegration. The party got 3 good fighters but they got awfull skills and the magic shop doesn't provide the usual knock wand for every eventuality.

[Malphegor]

Craven's a good feat to look at for any rogue- from Champions of Ruin, you add your character level to all your sneak attack damage rolls, but take a -2 to all fear-based saving throws.

[Trandir]

Original thread starting all of this stated that OP can't pick a base class (or any feature/option) outside of the PHB until level 5. Though with ACFs like spell reflection (level 2 rogue ACF) leads me to believe this is either not true or has been relaxed.



In a previous thread, I mentioned a build that didn't have the 2 crappy feats and 1 useless prerequisites and got you BETTER than HIPS, including concealment. I'll repost it here in case you just glossed over it:


Some of that post is now rendered unimportant (so i've struck through it) because of the crappy ruling on Sneak Attack only once per round.

I'm just going to repeat another thing I said in some of your other threads as well. Just because you're saddled with some shifty rules from the DM, don't subjugate yourself to not having a good time, or count your character as dead from session 1. Give it a solid try, build the best (most fun) thing you can with the rules you've been given and plan for longevity. You can still go shadowdancer if you want to with it, just plan accordingly. But I think you'll get more bang for your buck using Incarnum and diving in to Umbral Disciple earlier. You may not even need the feat to do it, dip a Meldshaper class.

The hand you've been delt is not the best, but just because it's not the best hand doesn't mean you need to fold. Try to take as many tricks as you can and see where you land at the end of the round. If you're defeated and not having fun, then leave the table. But if you had fun despite the bad hand, keep going and see where you can take it.

Hello there I must thank you for the effort on both threads. Yes that build would have been far better than the one I ended up (and I didn't updated the last thread but after some more asking the DM sayed "do whatever you want with the ACF"). But I feared that my soulmelds would end up with the rest of my stuff, and as I thought, the party didn't retrived. The umbral disciple is better than shadowdancer, it requires just one feat to qualify and not even a bad one but I took the way that required less levels to get to HIPS.

But worry not I intend to do my best to enjoy this weird ride. Also the damage has already be done so I can only roll with it. My best opion now is just to take a feat to cheat a magic item to get skill bonus and more skill masteries. At level 11 with no magic my hide bonus is +34.
I get a good appraise and gather informations since my companions got none of those and we have to depend on npcs and merchants (that could lie) for everything non related to combat. They got their fun with combat shenanigans but none OoC so I can do all of them.

[Particle_Man]

Well if you have dodge and mobility and can only do one sneak attack per round then the feat spring attack looks like a nice defensive option. Let your heavily armoured flank buddy tank for you while you nip in and out with your squishy self.

[AnimeTheCat]

Hello there I must thank you for the effort on both threads. Yes that build would have been far better than the one I ended up (and I didn't updated the last thread but after some more asking the DM sayed "do whatever you want with the ACF").
That's good, that your DM loosened the reins a little.


But I feared that my soulmelds would end up with the rest of my stuff, and as I thought, the party didn't retrived.
That's not how soulmelds work... You don't pick them and then are stuck with them forever. You pick them each day and can change them on the fly. No material components, no spellbooks, etc. They're like how a Cleric or Druid picks spells each day. If you don't want to shape Apparition Ribbon today, don't. Shape Bluesteel Bracers instead. You can do it while completely naked at not cost or penalty.


The umbral disciple is better than shadowdancer, it requires just one feat to qualify and not even a bad one but I took the way that required less levels to get to HIPS.
I don't understand what you mean. You're just now getting HIPS at level 11 with Shadowdancer and 3 feats, but you could have HIPS at level 9 with Umbral desciple and then bounce to... I don't know anything else. Wizard or something... You've got 2 more levels to play with, I'm sure you can come up with something fun. Maybe go back to Rogue? Hide is still a class skill for UD, so there's no skills lost there. You have 2 (or 3 with an Incarnate dip) more feats to play with, so you could grab Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot (or whatever else) with those feats, or (just because we're focusing on Hide) Skill Focus (Hide).

On a side note, I could be wrong, but in your OP you wrote the "Shadowstalker" feat... Did you mean Darkstalker from Lords of Madness? It's the only similarly named feat I could find with a google search.


But worry not I intend to do my best to enjoy this weird ride. Also the damage has already be done so I can only roll with it. My best opion now is just to take a feat to cheat a magic item to get skill bonus and more skill masteries. At level 11 with no magic my hide bonus is +34.
I get a good appraise and gather informations since my companions got none of those and we have to depend on npcs and merchants (that could lie) for everything non related to combat. They got their fun with combat shenanigans but none OoC so I can do all of them.

You're not going to sacrifice any of that with the above build, especially if you go Rogue 5/Incarnate 3/Umbral Disciple 3 OR Rogue 5/Totemist 3/Umbral Disciple 3. You get HIPS at the exact same level with less investment AND you get better bonuses to your desired abilities. Just take a look at some of the bonuses that you can be getting:
Incarnate - Bonuses to Balance, Escape Artist, Jump, Tumble, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Handle Animal, Ride, Swim, Profession (sailor), Use Rope, Spot, Decipher Script, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Search, Sense Motive
Totemist - Handle Animal, Heal, Survival, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Swim, Climb, Ride, Spot, Listen, Intimidate, Bluff

So yo've got a hide bonus of +34 just from your skill and class features alone at at level 11. At level 11 a rogue/totemist/umbral disciple has a potential +28 to Hide (and Move Silently) and that's without your DM's strange interpretation of "Take 10". Normally, Take 10 just adds 10 to your skill bonus and that counts as your roll, you act as though you had achieved 10 on the dice roll. Regardless, you can still have a higher check than that thanks to your DM giving you x4 skill points at level 1 of a new class. You get an infusion of skill points for Totemist, and for Umbral Disciple, which brings that total up to +34 without much difficulty (you could just get it form UD).

You do what you'll have fun doing, but more options is pretty much always more fun. Incarnum, in general, gives you more options than Rogue/Shadowdancer.

[Trandir]

That's not how soulmelds work... You don't pick them and then are stuck with them forever. You pick them each day and can change them on the fly. No material components, no spellbooks, etc. They're like how a Cleric or Druid picks spells each day. If you don't want to shape Apparition Ribbon today, don't. Shape Bluesteel Bracers instead. You can do it while completely naked at not cost or penalty.

Oh that's cool. I thought that you needed the actual old soulmeld to reshape it. I thought that if I got separated from them I would not be able to reshape them and would have remained with a character with even less things.



I don't understand what you mean. You're just now getting HIPS at level 11 with Shadowdancer and 3 feats, but you could have HIPS at level 9 with Umbral desciple and then bounce to... I don't know anything else. Wizard or something... You've got 2 more levels to play with, I'm sure you can come up with something fun. Maybe go back to Rogue? Hide is still a class skill for UD, so there's no skills lost there. You have 2 (or 3 with an Incarnate dip) more feats to play with, so you could grab Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot (or whatever else) with those feats, or (just because we're focusing on Hide) Skill Focus (Hide).


I meant that I took the class that required the less levels invested in to get HIPS. I wanted skill mastery to avoid the nat 1 (other dumbass rule, you can crit fail a skill check) then the day I got to test it the DM informed me of his version of take 10.



On a side note, I could be wrong, but in your OP you wrote the "Shadowstalker" feat... Did you mean Darkstalker from Lords of Madness? It's the only similarly named feat I could find with a google search.

Yep lapsus. That's the 4th feat



You're not going to sacrifice any of that with the above build, especially if you go Rogue 5/Incarnate 3/Umbral Disciple 3 OR Rogue 5/Totemist 3/Umbral Disciple 3. You get HIPS at the exact same level with less investment AND you get better bonuses to your desired abilities. Just take a look at some of the bonuses that you can be getting:
Incarnate - Bonuses to Balance, Escape Artist, Jump, Tumble, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Handle Animal, Ride, Swim, Profession (sailor), Use Rope, Spot, Decipher Script, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Search, Sense Motive
Totemist - Handle Animal, Heal, Survival, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Swim, Climb, Ride, Spot, Listen, Intimidate, Bluff

So yo've got a hide bonus of +34 just from your skill and class features alone at at level 11. At level 11 a rogue/totemist/umbral disciple has a potential +28 to Hide (and Move Silently) and that's without your DM's strange interpretation of "Take 10". Normally, Take 10 just adds 10 to your skill bonus and that counts as your roll, you act as though you had achieved 10 on the dice roll. Regardless, you can still have a higher check than that thanks to your DM giving you x4 skill points at level 1 of a new class. You get an infusion of skill points for Totemist, and for Umbral Disciple, which brings that total up to +34 without much difficulty (you could just get it form UD).

You do what you'll have fun doing, but more options is pretty much always more fun. Incarnum, in general, gives you more options than Rogue/Shadowdancer.

Yes looking back that would have been better but do you think that any DM would allow a retrain of basically half character?

[Efrate]

Also you cannot take 10 on UMD, that's warlock only, it's in the umd skill description iirc. Warlock actually is an interesting case here, get a ranged touch attack to apply your sneak attack to ensuring you are actually hitting things. Damage is untyped and not subject to DR, though it is to SR but supernatural transformation helps with that. Invocations can be nice round you out a bit more and are at will/24 hours.

Incarnate is always great as a skillmonkey, but its half bab. Totemist is 3/4 but not as good for the skillmonkey role, and has a more melee focus with natural attacks but some great utility, blink shirt is always nice.

Sneak attack and skirmish explicitly stack, if you go scout, and if you do not go warlock, crossbow sniper lets you sneak attack out to 60 feet.

A level if swordsage is also great. Assassins stance adds an always on 2d6 sneak attack, plus all the maneuver goodies, including short range teleportation and the amazing save replacement counters. Sadly you are not likely to find a shadow hand weapon for the free +3 to attack if in a stance.

[Demidos]

So I got to play a lv 11 PC that is the group skillmonkey.

Race: Core Halfling
Class level: rogue 10/ shadowdancer 1
ACF: Spell sense, Spell deflection, Distruptive strike
Ability scores: Str 8 Dex 22 Con 13 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 12
Feats: dodge, mobility, combat reflexes, darkstalker.
Skill ranks focused on: spot, listen, search, hide, move silently, bluff, disable device, open lock, tumble and UMD.

As special ability I took skill mastery in: spot, hide, move silently, tumble and UMD.

This is the PC in general. Does anyone have any advice for feats, classes and the likes to continue?
I am thinking of the second level of shadowdancer to take the basic rogue skills traded for the AcF and the item familiar feat.

Sidenotes: in this table you get one sneak attack per round, take 10 means that you get a +10 on the roll but takes a couple of minutes to to but the rogue can do it on the fly, you get full HD and 4× skill ranks on every first level in any new class and new PrC, in this setting there is some sort of monopoly on the market of magic items so it's difficult to find one particular item and even if you where to find something for sale it comes from the DMG and it usually is sold for 3 times the regular price, but crafting doesn't have any particular restriction.

Okay, so given your starting point....

Things that seem underwhelming and can be changed --

Have you ever used open lock where it is more useful than the spell "Knock"? If not, you can use two weeks and the skill retraining rules (if allowed) to retrain the skill to something more useful, like Sleight of Hand (see below). Even if an item of knock costs 3x the normal price, that seems like a reasonable trade for a whole new skill.

Under the same reasoning, have you ever used Disable device? I've never seen that come up in almost 8 years of gaming, at least at our tables. Of course, yours might be different, but I find that there is never a device to disable unless a rogue is playing at the table and the DM is trying to throw them a bone

The change you mentioned for taking 10 adding +10 to your roll, does that stack on top of skill mastery? I assume it doesn't, it just allows you to do the faster checks, correct?

Things for moving forward --
[LIST]
Sleight of Hand is a fantastic skill that will let you steal material component pouches, holy symbols, and focuses from casters making you an effective anti-mage. If you get the skill high enough, you can steal objects as a free action (with a +20 to the DC). Note that it is a FLAT DC 20 CHECK to steal things, which you should autosucceed -- the enemy only gets to make a check to see you take it, not to stop you.

It seems you like out-of-combat abilities, so why not take Forgery? I've never seen another character use it (meaning most people do not defend against it), but it can be very useful in a social setting to forge letters, grant yourself titles to gain entry to an event, and even stroll into guard-houses unopposed.

On the combat side, craven is a GREAT feat that will give you a huge damage boost.

TOB classes should also up your utility/power significantly -- notably, a level of crusader grants extra turns (white raven tactics), a level of warblade grants defenses (Iron heart surge), and a level in the third one i'm forgetting grants damage.
[\LIST]

[Trandir]

Okay, so given your starting point....

Things that seem underwhelming and can be changed --

Have you ever used open lock where it is more useful than the spell "Knock"? If not, you can use two weeks and the skill retraining rules (if allowed) to retrain the skill to something more useful, like Sleight of Hand (see below). Even if an item of knock costs 3x the normal price, that seems like a reasonable trade for a whole new skill.

Under the same reasoning, have you ever used Disable device? I've never seen that come up in almost 8 years of gaming, at least at our tables. Of course, yours might be different, but I find that there is never a device to disable unless a rogue is playing at the table and the DM is trying to throw them a bone

The change you mentioned for taking 10 adding +10 to your roll, does that stack on top of skill mastery? I assume it doesn't, it just allows you to do the faster checks, correct?

Things for moving forward --
[LIST]
Sleight of Hand is a fantastic skill that will let you steal material component pouches, holy symbols, and focuses from casters making you an effective anti-mage. If you get the skill high enough, you can steal objects as a free action (with a +20 to the DC). Note that it is a FLAT DC 20 CHECK to steal things, which you should autosucceed -- the enemy only gets to make a check to see you take it, not to stop you.

It seems you like out-of-combat abilities, so why not take Forgery? I've never seen another character use it (meaning most people do not defend against it), but it can be very useful in a social setting to forge letters, grant yourself titles to gain entry to an event, and even stroll into guard-houses unopposed.

On the combat side, craven is a GREAT feat that will give you a huge damage boost.

TOB classes should also up your utility/power significantly -- notably, a level of crusader grants extra turns (white raven tactics), a level of warblade grants defenses (Iron heart surge), and a level in the third one i'm forgetting grants damage.
[\LIST]

Thanks for the comments and to answer your points in order:

The magic item shops are randomized so to buy item the master rolls that shop inventory ( a 75-77 for minor or 43-44 for medium) so no buying one is not exactly an option. Oh this has never been brought up but this master does not allow retrain, tho he will probably allow it if done trough a wish spell or similar effects.


Yes open lock and disable device are two rather underwelming skills but a single dip in any skillmonkey class would allow to get 16+3 times the int mod more ranks than a continuing on rogue so an option is just to multiclass like there is no tomorrow.


Ok in this table take 10 is ruled in this way: you take a couple of minutes to prepare for a single skill check, this preparation allows you to get a +10 untyped bonus to that skill check, take a 20 works in a similar manner but here we are talikng about hours of preparation for a +20. This means that you get 1d20+10/20+ your usual bonus. Skill mastery allows the rogue to bypass the need for extra time and can do it even in combat so it provides him with basically 30+10 per int bonus more ranks.



Ah yes sleight of hand, it is a trurly unique skill, it can completely kill a wizard that now can't cast his insta death spell because he doesn't have any black pearl dust or something like that. Also little trivia for if the opponent's spot check surpass the sleight of hand one he just realize that the item has been stolen, he would still need to beat the hide check to see who did it. But as sayed the houserule allow me to take a single dip in a class with sleight of hand and get it to full 14+ ranks with some more to spare. But it is also worth considering that a 90 cm halfling should not be able to steal anything on a large creature that he keeps above the waists or that flyes around.


Forgery is one of the skills that i should upgrade, with the house rule of take 10 and 20 basically no body will doubt the papers immediately providing time to do whatever one can do with fake papers.


Craven is probably one of the best damaging boost for rogues and the halfling racial bonus on fear effect cancels out craven malus. It is good and scales with CL and as suck I will take it after the skill monkey part of the pc has been covered.

And yes ToB provides a lot of goodies, as I sayed earlier a single dip on Swordsage grants most of the good stealth and defensive maneuvers while warblade too can provide the defences but not the stealth plus some utility in the form of the white raven maneuvers.

The master now has a rogue in the party so he will probably put traps around, and if he doesn't disable device can be used also to sabotage various things, armors and bows to cheat in tournaments, an oven to get a distraction after 1d4 minutes when it begins to spread fire across the room, or anything that comes to mind in the moment.

[AnimeTheCat]

Oh that's cool. I thought that you needed the actual old soulmeld to reshape it. I thought that if I got separated from them I would not be able to reshape them and would have remained with a character with even less things.
Yeah, incarnum is great stuff. Versatility and flexibility day to day.


I meant that I took the class that required the less levels invested in to get HIPS. I wanted skill mastery to avoid the nat 1 (other dumbass rule, you can crit fail a skill check) then the day I got to test it the DM informed me of his version of take 10.
yey... another crummy houserule from your DM. Skill checks explicitly do NOT automatically fail on roll of a natural 1, nor do they automatically succeed on a roll of a natural 20. I would still take soulmelds over skill mastery and class features of Umbral Disciple over Shadow Dancer. You haven't really expressed any interest in being a primary damage dealer, so continuing to stack on to Sneak Attack is kind of pointless (especially with your DMs crummy Sneak Attack rule... just why).


Yep lapsus. That's the 4th feat

Yes looking back that would have been better but do you think that any DM would allow a retrain of basically half character?

I think, at the very least, it's worth an ask. Truly, what would change about how you played your character? What would you have done differently that would have impacted the session any more or less? Would the outcome be different? If the answer to any of that is "nothing" or "no", then I really don't see why not, but it does seem like your DM has a track record of oddities that may lead him/her to not let you. It's not too late to dip in to Incarnum though. Your Essentia pool will be small, but your essentia capacity is based off of character level, not meldshaper level, so the soulmelds and essentia investment remain relevant even if you dip late.


Craven is probably one of the best damaging boost for rogues and the halfling racial bonus on fear effect cancels out craven malus. It is good and scales with CL and as suck I will take it after the skill monkey part of the pc has been covered.

And yes ToB provides a lot of goodies, as I sayed earlier a single dip on Swordsage grants most of the good stealth and defensive maneuvers while warblade too can provide the defences but not the stealth plus some utility in the form of the white raven maneuvers.

The master now has a rogue in the party so he will probably put traps around, and if he doesn't disable device can be used also to sabotage various things, armors and bows to cheat in tournaments, an oven to get a distraction after 1d4 minutes when it begins to spread fire across the room, or anything that comes to mind in the moment.

If you ditch the Shadowdancer PrC, you have those 2 (or 3 with an incarnate dip) more feats. Pick up Craven and alredy have it. Also, you would have 2 more character levels to mess around with and still have HIPS. Go ahead and take a couple levels of Swordsage for the defensive maneuvers and stances and you'll have quite the functional character, despite the rules trying to gimp your character.

[Rebel7284]

Precision damage such as sneak attack and skirmish do not stack right?

Wrong? They are different sources of damage coming from different class abilities. As long as you meet prerequisites for each one, they stack.

[Trandir]

Yeah, incarnum is great stuff. Versatility and flexibility day to day.


yey... another crummy houserule from your DM. Skill checks explicitly do NOT automatically fail on roll of a natural 1, nor do they automatically succeed on a roll of a natural 20. I would still take soulmelds over skill mastery and class features of Umbral Disciple over Shadow Dancer. You haven't really expressed any interest in being a primary damage dealer, so continuing to stack on to Sneak Attack is kind of pointless (especially with your DMs crummy Sneak Attack rule... just why).



I think, at the very least, it's worth an ask. Truly, what would change about how you played your character? What would you have done differently that would have impacted the session any more or less? Would the outcome be different? If the answer to any of that is "nothing" or "no", then I really don't see why not, but it does seem like your DM has a track record of oddities that may lead him/her to not let you. It's not too late to dip in to Incarnum though. Your Essentia pool will be small, but your essentia capacity is based off of character level, not meldshaper level, so the soulmelds and essentia investment remain relevant even if you dip late.



If you ditch the Shadowdancer PrC, you have those 2 (or 3 with an incarnate dip) more feats. Pick up Craven and alredy have it. Also, you would have 2 more character levels to mess around with and still have HIPS. Go ahead and take a couple levels of Swordsage for the defensive maneuvers and stances and you'll have quite the functional character, despite the rules trying to gimp your character.

Ok I asked and he sayed no

Theorically a good plan might have been: rogue 5 for the core only rule, incarnum 1, umbral disciple 3, swordsage/warblade 1 for the ST off concentration,then exemplar 1 for skill mastery that I used and so I have to get somehow and also to get back the rogue ranks to 14.

And then continue with incarnum

[AnimeTheCat]

Ok I asked and he sayed no

Theorically a good plan might have been: rogue 5 for the core only rule, incarnum 1, umbral disciple 3, swordsage/warblade 1 for the ST off concentration,then exemplar 1 for skill mastery that I used and so I have to get somehow and also to get back the rogue ranks to 14.

And then continue with incarnum

That stinks... you're DM is kind of rude if I'm being honest. You know... you could always just... retire or end your adventurer's life or... i dunno anything that makes that character no longer a part of the party and then roll up the new character.

[Trandir]

That stinks... you're DM is kind of rude if I'm being honest. You know... you could always just... retire or end your adventurer's life or... i dunno anything that makes that character no longer a part of the party and then roll up the new character.

I mean yes I thought of that but bale a character after 2 session to get one that is just like him seems a bit weird

[ExLibrisMortis]

I mean yes I thought of that but bale a character after 2 session to get one that is just like him seems a bit weird
All your DMs houserules are weirder than that; in dealing with that weirdness, you're going to have to do some less-than-usual things yourself.

[pabelfly]

The real question is, are you having fun with your character?

[Trandir]

The real question is, are you having fun with your character?

Honestly? So far yes. This thread began with a simple question how would you continue from that point on?
And so far I got a lot of very good tips and ideas but more than half are just a "this suck do it again but better". I very much appreciate those too but I wasn't looking for that. My original idea to continue this PC from rogue 10/ shadowdancer 1 is: shadowdancer 2 to get back all the Class features traded, Swordsage/warblade 1 to get moment of perfect mind and mind over body plus depending on which one I choose some more stealth or support, exemplar 1 to get back all the rogue rank lost and to get Skill mastery on concentration to abuse the houserules of take 10. And then whatever I feel would be interesting for a couple of levels
This is quite fun from my point of view

[RNightstalker]

Wrong? They are different sources of damage coming from different class abilities. As long as you meet prerequisites for each one, they stack.

I'm not asking to challenge, but to clarify: maybe I assumed they didn't stack but is there anything RAW that supports that?

[Trandir]

I'm not asking to challenge, but to clarify: maybe I assumed they didn't stack but is there anything RAW that supports that?

Not that I know of.


But maybe I can build the new PC. We are going to face a pyrohydra nex session and I will die 100% sure if I get hit by his breath weapon. So probably I can build a new PC and bring that when this one will inevitably die.

[RNightstalker]

Here's hoping evasion bails you out! Maybe add a luck feat or two? lol

[Trandir]

Here's hoping evasion bails you out! Maybe add a luck feat or two? lol

Excuse what do you mean?

[pabelfly]

Excuse what do you mean?

There's a bunch of luck feats in... Complete Scoundrel, I think? They give you rerolls in various circumstances but they're pretty weak feats and you're better off just powering up yourself to be more consistent. Or going with Balam as a Binder for a reroll once every five rounds.

[Trandir]

Well. Here we go again. The OP has been updated so please before posting anything read it or else there is a good chance that your help won't actually help

[pabelfly]

Well. Here we go again.

This time instead of 11 levels do work with we got 5, half but more advanced. Any advice?

So five more levels on your Rogue/Shadowbinder/Warblade chassis? What else is on there?

[Trandir]

So five more levels on your Rogue/Shadowbinder/Warblade chassis? What else is on there?

Anything.
Thanks to the houserules i'd get max HD and 4×skill ranks on every dip.
So mad dipping is more interesting. As the "new" OP says a level in swordsage as the 17th level is great but there are lot of other good dips out there, like:
Cloistered cleric for possibly 3 bonus feats (travel domain would eat the swift action for WRT so not that one)
Maybe one or two of the generic classes from UA for the free feat (little underwelming I know)
A level in incarnum
One on highly ACF ranger
One on barbarian
Ecc....

[pabelfly]

Little curiosity did you read the updater OP?
Anything.
Thanks to the houserules i'd get max HD and 4×skill ranks on every dip.
So mad dipping is more interesting. As the "new" OP says a level in swordsage as the 17th level is great butbthere are lot of other good dips out there, like:
Cloistered cleric for possibly 3 bonus feats (travel domain would eat the swift action for WRT so not that one)
Maybe one or two of the generic classes from UA for the free feat (little underwelming I know)
A level in incarnum
One on highly ACF ranger
One on barbarian
Ecc....

There's a good junkyard build, Azoth the Raven I think it's called, that uses rogue sneak attack and Iajutsu Focus and various abilities that make opponents flatfooted to do sneak attack damage. I'd have a look at that and steal some ideas from it.