Don't laugh but this is a Monk question

[RNightstalker]

Would a high level Monk benefit from the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from ToB? The feat alone is less than a Monk would have on its own, but would the feat bump damage up a notch?

[Psyren]

Yes.

"Special: If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher."

[Thurbane]

It caps out at level 20 though, right? That would mean the feat becomes useless after Monk level 16?

Is there any epic progression for Monk damage (sorry, very uneducated on all things epic)?

[RNightstalker]

Yes.

"Special: If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher."

Ok, I give you permission to laugh for that one:tongue:
You can also say "Here's your sign" or something to that effect.
What's really bad is that feat is useless to a Monk above 15th...maybe something to take early and retrain later.

I guess you ninja'd me Thurbane. Hopefully I used the lingo right. You are correct, the ELH nerfs the Monk on Unarmed Strike damage.

[Thurbane]

You'd probably be better off with a Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks), which increases your unarmed damage as if your Monk level were 5 higher; and you can always sell it once it's no longer useful.

Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) can boost your unarmed damage at any level.

[Psyren]

If the belt and feat stack that might be a nice trick. Otherwise yeah, retrain it away. (No idea if they do or not.)

[Malroth]

You can more than double your unarmed damage by dipping warlock 1 and taking eldritch claws and beast strike

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Be able to cast Greater Mighty Wallop and you'll increase your unarmed damage up to colossal size. Enlightened Fist and/or Master of the East Wind can advance spellcasting and Monk abilities simultaneously. You can also use Arcane Strike with your unarmed strikes, plus there's Greater Magic Weapon, Wraithstrike, Haste, Greater Mage Armor, Shield, etc.

Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10 gets 18th level spellcasting and 16th level Monk abilities, which can be made up with a Monk's Tattoo (MoF) without taking an item slot. Take Ascetic Mage at 6th and you can use Cha instead of Wis for your AC to be less MAD.

[Malphegor]

If the belt and feat stack that might be a nice trick. Otherwise yeah, retrain it away. (No idea if they do or not.)

I'm pretty sure they don't since they don't increase your damage by X amount, they set it to equal X amount. difference of Default+Y=X vs Default is now X.

So one probably cancels out the other.

[King of Nowhere]

By raw it is useless past level 15, and does not stack with the belt.
But it would be reasonable to houserule otherwise, considering monk's general suckiness. Say that damage scaled up would be 4d6.

One of the few mechanical advantages of monk is that it allows you to whine with the dm about your class and you may get some boons.
You try doing that with a druid

[AnimeTheCat]

I'm pretty sure they don't since they don't increase your damage by X amount, they set it to equal X amount. difference of Default+Y=X vs Default is now X.

So one probably cancels out the other.


By raw it is useless past level 15, and does not stack with the belt.
But it would be reasonable to houserule otherwise, considering monk's general suckiness. Say that damage scaled up would be 4d6.

Why doesn't it stack? They aren't from the same source and both treat you as if you were X and Y levels higher for the purposes of Unarmed Strike Damage. If you're treated as a monk 5 levels higher (belt) and you're level 10, that means you're treated as level 15 for unarmed strike damage. Then if you're treated as a monk 4 levels higher (feat) you would be treated as a 19th level monk for unarmed strike damage. They don't state that they don't stack and nothing about the stacking rules lead me to believe they don't stack.

[SirNibbles]

By raw it is useless past level 15, and does not stack with the belt.
But it would be reasonable to houserule otherwise, considering monk's general suckiness. Say that damage scaled up would be 4d6.

One of the few mechanical advantages of monk is that it allows you to whine with the dm about your class and you may get some boons.
You try doing that with a druid

How do two distinct untyped bonuses not stack by RAW?

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure they don't since they don't increase your damage by X amount, they set it to equal X amount. difference of Default+Y=X vs Default is now X.

So one probably cancels out the other.

It doesn't say "four levels higher than base" though, it says "four levels higher." So I could see it as being addable (addable?) to the increase from the belt.

[Mato]

Why doesn't it stack?Because it's not a bonus, but an effect. Which means only the highest applies.


Stacking Effects
Item effects stack just as spells do (see Stacking Effects, page 137).
And I know what you're going to say, that's magical stuff. Unfortunately,

Rules Compendium doesn’t include material from all these sources, ... Here are some general concepts that apply to these power sources with respect to other effects and abilities in the game. ... The stacking rules for effects and bonuses apply, regardless of an effect’s or bonus’s source. ... Here’s a list of power sources and where you can find more information about them. ... martial powers (Tome of Battle);This section lays a a few of precedents down. Like maneuvers default to being extraordinary abilities & martial adepts are not spellcasters but they are included. But more impotently, it applies the stacking rules regardless of the actual source.

There was some further debate back and forth over the meaning of "identical spell" in the explanation of same effect which predates the RC anyway (see threads about stacking consumptive field with greater consumptive field). But the stacking rules were written for spell-on-spell and mostly copypasta and this more specific rule ad-hocs in that yes, even an incarnum soulmeld's effect can be compared to a psionic power's effect. As you can imagine, the endless debate on comparing things continued on some more until this happened.

Does a monk with a monk’s belt and the Superior Unarmed Strike feat benefit from both, or does just the highest benefit apply?
In this case, the better benefit will prevail. These effects technically do not have a bonus, so they would not use the stacking rules. One effect will end up overshadowing the other.And naturally, the debate has shuffled to the "losers" complaining the FAQ cannot be used to prove their old argument wrong even if we're up to like three rule patches worth of attempts to tell them no. But the tl;dr is you can't probably stack a feat's effect with a magic item's effect and you most certainly cannot stack superior unarmed strike with a monk's belt. And that last part is a good thing. Like you can't complain the monk is too weak for use and in need of fixes while trying to push forward houserules that allow people to use magic items to steal the monk's unique class features without being some form of a hypocrite.

[Silvercrys]

There are arguments both ways but I'd lean towards them not stacking.

The feat says "If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher."

The belt says "The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher."

By my reading, it isn't a "bonus" as such because neither of them say "add four to your monk level when calculating your unarmed strike damage" or something. It's heavily implied that both sentences ought to end with "higher... than their current monk level".

So instead it is setting your unarmed strike damage at Monk Level+4 and Monk Level+5, so you only get the greater one.

That said, interpreting it as an actual bonus that can stack probably doesn't the break the game, you know? I just don't think it's RAW.

[Telonius]

Yeah, it's really questionable, RAW-wise. The errata was eaten by a grue, but I strongly suspect it would have been in there. That said, it's a Monk. If he's staying in the class long enough for the bonus to stop mattering, he's been punished enough.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

There is one trick you can pull with the feat that can't be done with the belt. If you take a level of Warblade, you can technically use Weapon Aptitude to assign the feat to a weapon other than unarmed strikes, giving you monk unarmed strike damage on, say, a quarterstaff.

[SirNibbles]

By my reading, it isn't a "bonus" as such because neither of them say "add four to your monk level when calculating your unarmed strike damage" or something. It's heavily implied that both sentences ought to end with "higher... than their current monk level".

So instead it is setting your unarmed strike damage at Monk Level+4 and Monk Level+5, so you only get the greater one.

That said, interpreting it as an actual bonus that can stack probably doesn't the break the game, you know? I just don't think it's RAW.

So you're saying RAW says you don't add, but then you resolve by adding.

I can usually understand different RAW interpretations but this just seems inane.

What about being treated as higher level for the sake of casting spells, or turning, or having an animal companion? Are all of these not bonuses?

[Mato]

If you take a level of Warblade, you can technically use Weapon Aptitude to assign the feat to a weapon other than unarmed strikesWeapon aptitude doesn't change the feat, it changes the designated weapon. Like weapon focus doesn't give +1 bonus to longswords, it gives +1 to a selected weapon. And what you are doing is manipulating that designation by choosing another valid choice, but you are not rewriting the feat or replacing any word it says with another word you choose.

[Elves]

Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10 gets 18th level spellcasting and 16th level Monk abilities, which can be made up with a Monk's Tattoo (MoF) without taking an item slot. Take Ascetic Mage at 6th and you can use Cha instead of Wis for your AC to be less MAD.

Sounds like a fun build but besides Ascetic Mage is there any reason to go sorc and not wiz?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sounds like a fun build but besides Ascetic Mage is there any reason to go sorc and not wiz?

It works with Wizard, you can take Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu Genius to use Int for your Monk AC. I have a personal preference for Sorcerer so I always default to that when it's a toss-up. Plus there are spells you'll want to spam, like (Extended) Wraithstrike or touch spells with Arcane Fist. There are spells you'll only be casting 1/day as well, like (Greater) Mage/Luminous Armor, Greater Magic Weapon, and Greater Mighty Wallop, but a Sorcerer can put spells like that on a custom Runestaff, possibly via Ancestral Relic, but that's a bit high-op.

[Silvercrys]

So you're saying RAW says you don't add, but then you resolve by adding.

I can usually understand different RAW interpretations but this just seems inane.

What about being treated as higher level for the sake of casting spells, or turning, or having an animal companion? Are all of these not bonuses?Depends on the phrasing. Compare with Practiced Spellcaster:

"Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4. ..."

That's a bonus.

Both the item and the feat appear to reference your current Monk level. For example, assuming a 10th level Monk, the feat essentially reads:

"You instead deal damage as a [14th level Monk]."

While the Belt says:

"The wearer's AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of [Level 15]."

The belt is obviously way more clear-cut, most of the possible arguments otherwise revolve around saying the feat is a bonus, not that they both are.

But does that make more sense?

[Saintheart]

Sounds like a fun build but besides Ascetic Mage is there any reason to go sorc and not wiz?

Mostly higher spell capacity and that your bag of tricks stays intact even as the spell slots diminish. Gish builds like that, and especially with Arcane Strike and/or Abjurant Champion, tend to burn the slots, so sorcerer tends to just have a larger magazine for those purposes.

[Doctor Awkward]

Because it's not a bonus, but an effect. Which means only the highest applies.


And I know what you're going to say, that's magical stuff. Unfortunately,
This section lays a a few of precedents down. Like maneuvers default to being extraordinary abilities & martial adepts are not spellcasters but they are included. But more impotently, it applies the stacking rules regardless of the actual source.

There was some further debate back and forth over the meaning of "identical spell" in the explanation of same effect which predates the RC anyway (see threads about stacking consumptive field with greater consumptive field). But the stacking rules were written for spell-on-spell and mostly copypasta and this more specific rule ad-hocs in that yes, even an incarnum soulmeld's effect can be compared to a psionic power's effect. As you can imagine, the endless debate on comparing things continued on some more until this happened.
And naturally, the debate has shuffled to the "losers" complaining the FAQ cannot be used to prove their old argument wrong even if we're up to like three rule patches worth of attempts to tell them no. But the tl;dr is you can't probably stack a feat's effect with a magic item's effect and you most certainly cannot stack superior unarmed strike with a monk's belt. And that last part is a good thing. Like you can't complain the monk is too weak for use and in need of fixes while trying to push forward houserules that allow people to use magic items to steal the monk's unique class features without being some form of a hypocrite.

Well by that logic, I guess since daggers don't technically stack either, when dual-wielding them you can only ever benefit from your best dagger?

In reality, because (as you noted) two different spells that produce similar effects will explicitly stack because they are considered by the rules to be different sources, two different magic items that produce similar effects will therefore also stack, unless they are based on the same spell. There is additionally no reason not to apply this same logic to a feat and a magic item that produce similar effects. Unless you are prepared to argue that the expansion psionic power shouldn't stack with the Powerful Build racial ability?

...And on an unrelated note, yeah, the FAQ is riddled with enough inconsistencies that it should never, ever be considered an authority on anything.

[RNightstalker]

I think the OP has been answered.

[Elves]

Mostly higher spell capacity and that your bag of tricks stays intact even as the spell slots diminish. Gish builds like that, and especially with Arcane Strike and/or Abjurant Champion, tend to burn the slots, so sorcerer tends to just have a larger magazine for those purposes.

But wiz can get 9ths and also get Enlightened Fist's Hold Ray ability, which is kind of important. Moreover, the sorc build that only takes 5 EF levels finds its uses of Stunning Fist and hence Arcane Fist severely limited since Master of the East Wind doesn't advance them. For those two reasons I think monk1/wiz4/Enlightened Fist 10/Master of the East Wind or Abjurant Champion 5 is just more viable.


That said I do prefer the fluff of the sorcerer build, beating people to death with the magic that's naturally bursting out of you.

[Anthrowhale]

But wiz can get 9ths and also get Enlightened Fist's Hold Ray ability, which is kind of important. Moreover, the sorc build that only takes 5 EF levels finds its uses of Stunning Fist and hence Arcane Strike severely limited since Master of the East Wind doesn't advance them. For those two reasons I think monk1/wiz4/Enlightened Fist 10/Master of the East Wind or Abjurant Champion 5 is just more viable.

Note that Arcane Strike does not require Stunning Fist to activate.

Hold ray is nice, particularly if you have Ocular Spell.

[magic9mushroom]

There is one trick you can pull with the feat that can't be done with the belt. If you take a level of Warblade, you can technically use Weapon Aptitude to assign the feat to a weapon other than unarmed strikes, giving you monk unarmed strike damage on, say, a quarterstaff.

You're confusing Weapon Aptitude with an Aptitude Weapon. Weapon Aptitude lets you reassign feats that could be assigned in the first place. An Aptitude Weapon counts as another weapon for feats. The latter is the one that lets you apply Lightning Mace to crossbows and shoot yourself 588 times in the head.

[Thurbane]

Hold ray is nice,

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bc/2f/12/bc2f12a088b5e3ba646bcce1d1378528.jpg

[Elves]

Note that Arcane Strike does not require Stunning Fist to activate.

Arcane Fist is what I mean. Unlike hold ray it does say "spend one of your daily stunning attempts".

[16bearswutIdo]

"Is this feat good for a high level monk?"

"Have you considered taking 1 level in monk and then being a wizard instead?"

Never change, GitP

[SirNibbles]

"Is this feat good for a high level monk?"

"Have you considered taking 1 level in monk and then being a wizard instead?"

Never change, GitP

You can be a high level monk without taking a lot of levels of monk. In fact it's usually better because the only class features you want from a monk are advanced by items and feats (belt, tattoo, SAS, etc.). That means you can get cool things like full BAB and class features.

[Karl Aegis]

You can be a high level monk without taking a lot of levels of monk. In fact it's usually better because the only class features you want from a monk are advanced by items and feats (belt, tattoo, SAS, etc.). That means you can get cool things like full BAB and class features.

The only notable Monk class feature is Improved Evasion so you can dump Dexterity. Useful for Zen Archery builds.

[Sutr]

The only notable Monk class feature is Improved Evasion so you can dump Dexterity. Useful for Zen Archery builds.

I don't know decisive strike, its bonus feats, invisible fist, holy strike, wall walker can all be used effectively. If I remember right most of these forgot the no armor clause as well.

Then again level seven gets shadow blend which may be the best stealth effect in the game. 7-10 levels of monk can be a very auspicious beginning to an adventurous career.

[SirNibbles]

The only notable Monk class feature is Improved Evasion so you can dump Dexterity. Useful for Zen Archery builds.


I don't know decisive strike, its bonus feats, invisible fist, holy strike, wall walker can all be used effectively. If I remember right most of these forgot the no armor clause as well.

Then again level seven gets shadow blend which may be the best stealth effect in the game. 7-10 levels of monk can be a very auspicious beginning to an adventurous career.

I agree that Improved Evasion is definitely not the highlight of the monk, especially since you can easily get it elsewhere, and the fact that you're much better off taking Invisible Fist so you wouldn't get it anyhow. The fact that taking Monk 9 loses 3 BAB makes it not worth it for most builds in my opinion.

_____


Depends on the phrasing. Compare with Practiced Spellcaster:

"Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4. ..."

Actual quote:

"Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4." - Complete Arcane, page 82

It doesn't need to have the + to be a bonus.

"Multiply the battle smith's class level by 3 to determine her effective caster level for the purpose of creating magic arms and armor (this benefit stacks with any other caster levels the battlesmith might have)." - Races of Stone, page 97

That's a bonus.

"Beginning at 10th level, a Golden Cup paladin can treat her paladin level as three higher than normal for the purpose of determining the maximum amount of healing she can bestow with her lay on hands ability per day. - Champions of Valor, page 42

Also a bonus.
__

"The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher." - Monk's Belt: Dungeon Master's Guide, page 248

"If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher." - Superior Unarmed Strike: Tome of Battle, page 33

"The tattoo improves the unarmed strike damage, speed, and AC of the monk recipient by four levels." - Monk's Tattoo: Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 163

They are all separate effects which provide untyped bonuses to your effective monk level. If you are treated as five levels higher and then four levels higher, that's nine levels higher, because untyped bonuses stack.

__


Both the item and the feat appear to reference your current Monk level. For example, assuming a 10th level Monk, the feat essentially reads:

"You instead deal damage as a [14th level Monk]."

While the Belt says:

"The wearer's AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of [Level 15]."

The belt is obviously way more clear-cut, most of the possible arguments otherwise revolve around saying the feat is a bonus, not that they both are.

It doesn't 'essentially' say that, and it definitely doesn't say that directly. It essentially says 'this effect increases your monk level by 5 when determining UAS damage'.

__

So yes, Superior Unarmed Strike is useful for a monk because it means you can take fewer monk levels and still max out your Unarmed Strike damage.

[Silvercrys]

Actual quote:

"Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4." - Complete Arcane, page 82

It doesn't need to have the + to be a bonus.Gonna stop you right here because I never said it needed a plus to be a bonus.

What makes it a bonus is that it literally says it increases your caster level. Neither monk effect says that. The feat says "you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher." Not. "Your monk level is increased by 4 for the purposes of dealing unarmed strike damage." It would have to say the latter to be a bonus, to my mind.

The belt is even more clear cut to me because it says "treated as". It almost literally does say "you are treated as a 15th level Monk for Unarmed Damage and AC bonus", not "add 5 to your monk level for the purpose of your unarmed damage and AC bonus class features" or something similar.

Your other examples vary. I wouldn't allow the Golden Cup paladin ability to stack with another ability that said "you use lay on hands as a paladin 5 levels higher" either, for example, and the battlesmith specifically says it stacks with "other caster levels" so there isn't much of an argument there.

But hey, you do you, like I said it probably doesn't break the game or anything.

[Thurbane]

"Is this feat good for a high level monk?"

"Have you considered taking 1 level in monk and then being a wizard instead?"

Never change, GitP

This is why I usually have three of four lines of disclaimers when I ask for build advice. :smalltongue:

[SirNibbles]

Gonna stop you right here because I never said it needed a plus to be a bonus.

What makes it a bonus is that it literally says it increases your caster level. Neither monk effect says that. The feat says "you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher." Not. "Your monk level is increased by 4 for the purposes of dealing unarmed strike damage." It would have to say the latter to be a bonus, to my mind.

The belt is even more clear cut to me because it says "treated as". It almost literally does say "you are treated as a 15th level Monk for Unarmed Damage and AC bonus", not "add 5 to your monk level for the purpose of your unarmed damage and AC bonus class features" or something similar.

Your other examples vary. I wouldn't allow the Golden Cup paladin ability to stack with another ability that said "you use lay on hands as a paladin 5 levels higher" either, for example, and the battlesmith specifically says it stacks with "other caster levels" so there isn't much of an argument there.

But hey, you do you, like I said it probably doesn't break the game or anything.


literally

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

___

"The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher." - Monk's Belt: Dungeon Master's Guide, page 248

"If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher." - Superior Unarmed Strike: Tome of Battle, page 33

"The tattoo improves the unarmed strike damage, speed, and AC of the monk recipient by four levels." - Monk's Tattoo: Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 163

All three of those unequivocally provide an increase to a tangible number. That's what most people would call a bonus. The effects are literally increasing numerical values related to your character.

"bonus: A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies. Bonuses that don’t have a specific type always stack with all bonuses." - Glossary: Bonus - Player's Handbook, page 305

If you ignore the part about it only applying to a die roll (because there are bonuses to AC, caster level, ability scores, etc.) you get any positive modifier, and any bonus that doesn't have a specific type listed stacks with everything (i.e. the 'untyped bonuses stack with everything' rule).

"Untyped bonuses stack unless the bonuses come from the same effect." - Rules Compendium, page 21

[Silvercrys]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

___

"The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher." - Monk's Belt: Dungeon Master's Guide, page 248

"If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher." - Superior Unarmed Strike: Tome of Battle, page 33

"The tattoo improves the unarmed strike damage, speed, and AC of the monk recipient by four levels." - Monk's Tattoo: Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 163

All three of those unequivocally provide an increase to a tangible number. That's what most people would call a bonus. The effects are literally increasing numerical values related to your character.

"bonus: A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies. Bonuses that don’t have a specific type always stack with all bonuses." - Glossary: Bonus - Player's Handbook, page 305

If you ignore the part about it only applying to a die roll (because there are bonuses to AC, caster level, ability scores, etc.) you get any positive modifier, and any bonus that doesn't have a specific type listed stacks with everything (i.e. the 'untyped bonuses stack with everything' rule).

"Untyped bonuses stack unless the bonuses come from the same effect." - Rules Compendium, page 21I said "almost literally", I'm well aware of what the word means.

The tattoo seems like a "bonus," sure.

The feat is unclear, I would say no, it isn't a "bonus."

The belt almost certainly isn't providing a "bonus" to your "effective monk level" (which isn't even a real game statistic) at all. It is setting your "effective monk level" at five higher than it currently is. "You are treated as a monk five levels higher". Not. "Your monk level is increased by five".

You are interpreting anything that increases a number as a bonus. My interpretation is that an effect might be a bonus and might not be, and that absent specific phrasing it probably isn't.

If it does strictly what it says on the tin, the Monk's Belt changes your AC Bonus and Unarmed Damage to be that of a 15th level Monk when your Monk level is 10 rather than providing a +5 "bonus" to your "effective monk level." If they wanted it to provide a +5 "bonus" to your "effective monk level," they would have said literally that or used phrasing similar to the tattoo.

Read strictly, I believe the feat does the same thing, setting your monk level at 14.

Hell, I'd probably let them stack in a game I was running. I just don't think it's RAW.

And if you want to get technical, the Rules Compendium (page 21) heavily implies that bonuses only apply to attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, Armor Class, ability scores, or skill checks, so the stacking rules don't even apply to things that alter your monk level for class features because they aren't strictly bonuses at all.

Meaning the only thing that matters is what effect they provide, and if it sets your "effective monk level" rather than actually increasing it as I believe, then the tattoo stacks with either of the others but the other two do not stack with each other.

I'm probably going to bow out here because I don't think we're going to agree on this. Good luck in your games.