Finding my niche in this group

[eyekona]

Hi,
I'm not a new player and normally have no problems coming up with a char and a background story but in this particular group I'm at a loss and I need your help.

I moved, I met a new group and played my first year of DnD 5e. We are level 7 now and my beastmaster ranger died. She was just too weak compared to the rest of the group. I really liked her but it's ok, in the end she was contributing nothing we did not already have or need.

Our party:
A halfelf Sorc, she has blasts and invis/disguise - she sneaks and blasts and can also open locks (learned ingame).
A human fighter who is too weak also and can't keep up. he wants to change to bard/rogue mc when his char dies. And I think he wants him to die. (He rolled really really bad stats and hp)
A halfelf bard1/warlock 6 who heals and buffs and is really really smart and has a familiar and excells in revealing the unknown

And my personal problem:
Our human vengeance paladin. He rolled totally op stats - legit, we were at the table and rolled one after the other. He asked our GM to nerf his rolles but the DM told him he should keep them as they are. So after one ASI he has 18str, 20con and 18cha. all the others above 14. He is our best single target damage dealer, our face - the player also talks really really good in RL, our best tank and a decent healer and debuffer.


my first attempt and finding my new place was a warmage - just because I always wanted to play one. I went woodelf paladin 1 / bard x and went for college of swords. Our GM was ok with it. As our paladin learned that I am also a paladin he flipped OT and said if I want to play a paladin I should have asked him first and he would leave the group if I went for it. (Dude doesn't look like it but has some bad confidence issues it seems). I said I could play him as a religious fighter1/bardx for peace but he still wanted to be the only player with a god... in the end he was so upset, I stepped back and told him I would make a new char.

GM then said, no duplicate classes and I asked the group if a human wizard would be ok. Everyone agreed and so i started building a female wizard who went battlefield control and debuff. I then showed our GM my story and char art - not even my sheet and my GM said I can't play this char because our paladin will kill her in an instant but he did not tell my why. So there must be something in his background. She limps, she has doll face makeup and she is a little sadistic, just a little. Could also be something I overlooked as being too normal. So not this char either, if I don't know what it is, I can't fix it... (and I like her that way and will play her at another occasion)

I also can't pick high elf because another char hast serious issues with high elves and kills them on sight.

What is left?
Clerics are religious
I hate Barbs, also they will overshadow our fighter even more...
Rogue is out because I totally understand why our fighter wants to switch chars
My attempt at wizard failed
Monks!?!?
Druids?!?

So what is left? Druid? Our campain is really town and diplomcy heavy, not much outdoor action... can a druid even fit into that? (That's also why I couldn't contribute much with my ranger)
Monk maybe??? But I don't know if they are too religious? And I don't know If I wouldn't overshadow our fighter with them?

I'm really at a loss here.
What do you think?
What is missing in our group and what can I be?
I really like the fighting part of DnD and want to contribute something to a fight.
PHB and Xanathars only.

I really need your help.
eye

[nickl_2000]

From a party need a Druid, Cleric, or Wizard would be best. However, if you like person fighting Druid is most likely out, especially since you can't do Spores Druid. So, that pretty much leaves you with Cleric or try again on Wizard.

I would go Cleric personally. I know that it isn't in the book your mentioned, but Arcana Cleric with BB/GFB would be a really good character for this group.

Otherwise Nature Cleric would be a good fit and fill some needs in the party skillwise, gives you heavy armor, can take Shilleligh to be Wisdom based for attacking, and focus on melee attacks.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Ask the GM to make the background with you so you will still not know about the stuff the paladin hate and it will be 100%ok because you did it with the GM.


Paladins don't have to be religious, they just have to follow the vow/code they choose.

Monks just train a lot.

Druid need no land to be effective, but you may scare some citizens (a bear that control lightning can be scary).

You can ask to play a cleric of an idea(in 3.5e for example cleric could draw power from an idea).
You can be a cleric of atheism if your GM will approve. That way you will be 100% not religious.


I know from experience it is hard to play with someone that suffer from low self-esteem.

[stoutstien]

No player has the power to tell another player what they can or cannot play. unless you are exaggerating i would find a new group asap and I don't tend to go with the knee jerk reaction of doing that but that kind of behavior isnt going to change.

[Mikaleus]

Hi,
I'm not a new player and normally have no problems coming up with a char and a background story but in this particular group I'm at a loss and I need your help.

I moved, I met a new group and played my first year of DnD 5e. We are level 7 now and my beastmaster ranger died. She was just too weak compared to the rest of the group. I really liked her but it's ok, in the end she was contributing nothing we did not already have or need.

Our party:
A halfelf Sorc, she has blasts and invis/disguise - she sneaks and blasts and can also open locks (learned ingame).
A human fighter who is too weak also and can't keep up. he wants to change to bard/rogue mc when his char dies. And I think he wants him to die. (He rolled really really bad stats and hp)
A halfelf bard1/warlock 6 who heals and buffs and is really really smart and has a familiar and excells in revealing the unknown

And my personal problem:
Our human vengeance paladin. He rolled totally op stats - legit, we were at the table and rolled one after the other. He asked our GM to nerf his rolles but the DM told him he should keep them as they are. So after one ASI he has 18str, 20con and 18cha. all the others above 14. He is our best single target damage dealer, our face - the player also talks really really good in RL, our best tank and a decent healer and debuffer.


my first attempt and finding my new place was a warmage - just because I always wanted to play one. I went woodelf paladin 1 / bard x and went for college of swords. Our GM was ok with it. As our paladin learned that I am also a paladin he flipped OT and said if I want to play a paladin I should have asked him first and he would leave the group if I went for it. (Dude doesn't look like it but has some bad confidence issues it seems). I said I could play him as a religious fighter1/bardx for peace but he still wanted to be the only player with a god... in the end he was so upset, I stepped back and told him I would make a new char.

GM then said, no duplicate classes and I asked the group if a human wizard would be ok. Everyone agreed and so i started building a female wizard who went battlefield control and debuff. I then showed our GM my story and char art - not even my sheet and my GM said I can't play this char because our paladin will kill her in an instant but he did not tell my why. So there must be something in his background. She limps, she has doll face makeup and she is a little sadistic, just a little. Could also be something I overlooked as being too normal. So not this char either, if I don't know what it is, I can't fix it... (and I like her that way and will play her at another occasion)

I also can't pick high elf because another char hast serious issues with high elves and kills them on sight.

What is left?
Clerics are religious
I hate Barbs, also they will overshadow our fighter even more...
Rogue is out because I totally understand why our fighter wants to switch chars
My attempt at wizard failed
Monks!?!?
Driuds?!?

So what is left? Druid? Our campain is really town and diplomcy heavy, not much outdoor action... can a druid even fit into that? (That's also why I couldn't contribute much with my ranger)
Monk maybe??? But I don't know if they are too religious? And I don't know If I wouldn't overshadow our fighter with them?

I'm really at a loss here.
What do you think?
What is missing in our group and what can I be?
I really like the fighting part of DnD and want to contribute something to a fight.
PHB and Xanathars only.

I really need your help.
eye

How can the paladin player expect to be the only one with a God?
I’m surprised he doesn’t have an issue with the warlock having a patron.

Also druids can do amazingly well in a city. Think of the rodents, the pigeons, cats, dogs or horses who could provide invaluable intel. Be the urchin with a gift for talking to animals and influencing nature around him.

Tell the paladin that you worship the natural world around you rather than a god.

Maybe one of the animals you speak to is actually your mentor, teaching you deeper mysteries over time (nice option in xanathars guide).


If that fails to satisfy a selfish player I’d provably not play with such a group personally but that is your call to make - good luck 👍

[zinycor]

You should talk with the paladin player. make it clear to him that you are not trying to step on his toes. Even if you make religious character it doesn't need to be similar to whatever this paladin's religion is. What is his religion exactly?

Now, your wizard idea would have crated conflict, so cutting it out was the right choice from your GM. You could come up with a new, less antagonistic idea for a wizard.

Monks don't have to be religious at all.
Druids can be pretty fun on city setting, I would give it a shot.
Clerics can be very varied, just look at religion in a difrent way than the pally does.

anyway, talk to your party and try to create your character with their help.

[CorporateSlave]

Yeah wow that paladin player doesn't sound like someone I would want to be in a party with. ("WAAH! I'M TAKING MY GOD AND I'M GOING HOME!") But since you are apparently stuck with him...

I would go Monk, and maximize your move speed (Wood elf, Mobile, maybe go Shadow for the shadow teleport, etc). Monks need not be religious at all, as zinycor said. The ability to move around the battlefield at will, without needing to expend spell slots is a benefit many parties never even consider, but played well can provide all sorts of advantages.

You still won't likely be as hard hitting as a fighter, and as long as some random member of your party doesn't instantly slaughter characters that punch and kick every alternate tuesday due to some back story shenanigans, you should be ok.

You could always MC a level or two of Rogue (if the DM allows a dip into duplicate classes) for the Expertise, additional skill, and Cunning Action Dash so you don't even have to burn Ki to double your movement. If you can convince one of the casters to Haste you on a regular basis...nowhere on the pitch will be safe!

Besides, the personality of a Monk can be terribly fun to role-play!

[Reevh]

Your paladin sounds like he has issues, and your table seems generally super finicky. I’d definitely tend to want to try to talk it out with the people who have issues to see if there’s a way around their issues.

Failing that, I’d consider just making a different wizard, and work on the backstory in concert with the GM

[eyekona]

Thank you all for your replies. I really like some of the ideas that were posted.


No player has the power to tell another player what they can or cannot play. unless you are exaggerating i would find a new group asap and I don't tend to go with the knee jerk reaction of doing that but that kind of behavior isnt going to change.

Yeah, he did not say I cannot play the paladin, he said HE WOULD LEAVE if I played the paladin. And I don't want him to. He normally is a really fun person to play with - he just has his issues as everyone does and works way to much. And I don't think he is selfish, I think he is frightened. I really like my group. And we did not have problems before.


Also druids can do amazingly well in a city. Think of the rodents, the pigeons, cats, dogs or horses who could provide invaluable intel. Be the urchin with a gift for talking to animals and influencing nature around him.
Tell the paladin that you worship the natural world around you rather than a god.
Maybe one of the animals you speak to is actually your mentor, teaching you deeper mysteries over time (nice option in xanathars guide)

This actually sounds like fun. I never played a druid before - I thought they were quite boring, but hey, maybe I give it a go. :-)

[MaXenzie]

Thank you all for your replies. I really like some of the ideas that were posted.



Yeah, he did not say I cannot play the paladin, he said HE WOULD LEAVE if I played the paladin. And I don't want him to. He normally is a really fun person to play with - he just has his issues as everyone does and works way to much. And I don't think he is selfish, I think he is frightened. I really like my group. And we did not have problems before.



This actually sounds like fun. I never played a druid before - I thought they were quite boring, but hey, maybe I give it a go. :-)

Call his bluff.

Play a Paladin.

[MrStabby]

Thank you all for your replies. I really like some of the ideas that were posted.



Yeah, he did not say I cannot play the paladin, he said HE WOULD LEAVE if I played the paladin. And I don't want him to. He normally is a really fun person to play with - he just has his issues as everyone does and works way to much. And I don't think he is selfish, I think he is frightened. I really like my group. And we did not have problems before.



This actually sounds like fun. I never played a druid before - I thought they were quite boring, but hey, maybe I give it a go. :-)

Well I was going to suggest that you find a new group. Failing that Play a Paladin - you solve the problem of what to play AND the problem of having the kind of player at your table that wants to force other players into playing a narrow range of characters that do not excite them.


But seriously - maybe make a list of what makes a concept fun for you - both mechanically and character-wise. With this list you can go to the table and involve them in the process. If nothing else they should understand the decision you make.

[AHF]

Since it sounds like this is an issue you are willing to work around (although the paladin player is being a bully and jerk in his behavior even if he isn't in his delivery), I'd push him to understand what he sees as stepping on his toes or as incompatible and then move forward with your character.

A Paladin 1 / Bard 6 can be played as simply a Bard with armor. You don't have to have a god and you don't even have an Oath to live up to (you get that at Paladin 3). Heck, you don't even have the iconic Paladin features. All you get at Paladin 1 is the martial weapons and armor, divine sense (a near useless ribbon that could easily be relabeled to fit something with your Bard archetype), and the ability to lay hands (which can be recast as simply the ability to do first aid). I just don't understand where this is stepping on anyone's toes. Seems like only very minor re-skinning is needed. Moreover, if you really intend only to take a single level in Paladin then it seems like you mechanically get more out of a level of Fighter anyway.

The Wizard you drew up seems to 100% satisfy the paladin's articulated objections and the DM has signaled to you that something about either your race or background triggers something in the Paladin's background - perhaps his family was killed by a group that you would be a part of or something. Just take that character and move it from the "trigger box" to a non-trigger race/background combo. The way to do that is working with the DM (or the Paladin player).

Without knowing more about your group, it is hard for us to give you more specific suggestions. Like is the Vengeance Paladin a LG type of character that would have recognized your Wizard as evil and killed him on sight? He seems to have no problem adventuring with someone who would kill High Elves on sight so that is probably not the case but without greater info it is tough to give you good suggestions. There is clearly a dynamic at work that is not about simply niche within the group.

[NecessaryWeevil]

You could possibly use a battlefield control caster (and wizard or druid are probably best for that). Check with the DM whether a druid in a urban setting will be a problem. I'm playing a Shepherd druid in Dragon Heist and haven't had an issue yet (although we're only on our fifth session).

You could also potentially need another resilient melee combatant if the fighter is changing characters. Why does that character have trouble keeping up?

And yeah, wow, that Paladin player.

[eyekona]

Divine sense (a near useless ribbon [...])
Funnily enough this is the most useful skill in our entire campain.


I never really considered druids, because I saw them as a kind of hippy vegan loner in the woods, afraid of cities, fire and metal. Playing them in the slums of a city with wild cat, mouse and rat friends never occured to me and I think will be fun and makes a really good spy. So i think I'm going with this concept. Thank you all again for your help. And for showing me a different approach to a class I never really wanted to play.

[Reevh]

Funnily enough this is the most useful skill in our entire campain.

How does it get used in your campaign? You have to be able to see the creature to use it on them, so typically I’ve only ever seen it used to identify undead that are masking their true nature, like liches or vampires.

[sithlordnergal]

I'd either go Druid, or see if you can build a Wizard that the paladin doesn't mind. If you're willing to work with the Paladin that is.

[moonfly7]

No player has the power to tell another player what they can or cannot play. unless you are exaggerating i would find a new group asap and I don't tend to go with the knee jerk reaction of doing that but that kind of behavior isnt going to change.


How can the paladin player expect to be the only one with a God?
I’m surprised he doesn’t have an issue with the warlock having a patron.

Also druids can do amazingly well in a city. Think of the rodents, the pigeons, cats, dogs or horses who could provide invaluable intel. Be the urchin with a gift for talking to animals and influencing nature around him.

Tell the paladin that you worship the natural world around you rather than a god.

Maybe one of the animals you speak to is actually your mentor, teaching you deeper mysteries over time (nice option in xanathars guide).


If that fails to satisfy a selfish player I’d provably not play with such a group personally but that is your call to make - good luck 👍


Well I was going to suggest that you find a new group. Failing that Play a Paladin - you solve the problem of what to play AND the problem of having the kind of player at your table that wants to force other players into playing a narrow range of characters that do not excite them.


But seriously - maybe make a list of what makes a concept fun for you - both mechanically and character-wise. With this list you can go to the table and involve them in the process. If nothing else they should understand the decision you make.

Um, the paladins player is really....not ok. I know you said he's been fine so far, but people like this are always fine till something doesn't go there way. I don't play with you so I can't say, but it sounds like a guy I've played with, who basically wanted to be the main character.
But regardless, you should play the paladin, or the religious fighter. Let him quit if he doesn't like it, that just shows he's not the kind of person you want in a TEAM game. Your character is your character. You have every right to play a pally, or a religious warrior(within DM constraints). I agree with one of the above posts. You should play a pally. Be polite, ask him why he's so upset, but tell him you like the character, and you have just as much a right to a god as he does.

[Reevh]

Um, the paladins player is really....not ok. I know you said he's been fine so far, but people like this are always fine till something doesn't go there way. I don't play with you so I can't say, but it sounds like a guy I've played with, who basically wanted to be the main character.
But regardless, you should play the paladin, or the religious fighter. Let him quit if he doesn't like it, that just shows he's not the kind of person you want in a TEAM game. Your character is your character. You have every right to play a pally, or a religious warrior(within DM constraints). I agree with one of the above posts. You should play a pally. Be polite, ask him why he's so upset, but tell him you like the character, and you have just as much a right to a god as he does.

Yeah I agree that my experience with people who throw fits like this is that they're fine until they aren't, and ultimately the drama that try engender threatens everyone's fun. Letting them throw a fit like that, complete with threats of leaving, and then capitulating, just encourages such behavior in the future. If I were DM, I think I'd set the paladin straight.

[eyekona]

Please stop telling me I need to play with another group.


How does it get used in your campaign? You have to be able to see the creature to use it on them, so typically I’ve only ever seen it used to identify undead that are masking their true nature, like liches or vampires.

Yeah, that is exactly what we are dealing with mostly - undeads masking themselfs as members of the royal court or other important persons, taking over the town one by one...

[Reevh]

Please stop telling me I need to play with another group.



Yeah, that is exactly what we are dealing with mostly - undeads masking themselfs as members of the royal court or other important persons, taking over the town one by one...

Cool! Awesome that they're able to get some use out of the ability!

[Keravath]

Honestly, in that group I would play a 1 knowledge cleric/ X wizard. The knowledge cleric gives expertise in arcana and nature (or whichever 2 of the skills you like) plus the ability to emergency heal and buff using bless if needed and medium armor and a shield for a good AC for a wizard. The rest in wizard where I might suggest evoker so that you can drop evocation spells on the party without damaging team mates.

Hopefully, it won't step on the sorcerer's toes too much.

Your description of the characters also points out some of the pitfalls with rolled stats and hit points. If you are only making a few rolls for stats and hit points, the odds of getting high or low sets are pretty good. This is why I generally prefer point and average hit points buy these days.

You could play a Cleric of Mystra whose found themselves more interested in learning to use magic than in studying it from a divine perspective. Since the god isn't at the center of the character concept it shouldn't bother the paladin too much.

Anyway, some of the players in the game sound a bit too sensitive about perrogatives ..

If you want to trounce things with a character that doesn't duplicate options ...

Variant Human Gloomstalker Ranger 5/ X Assassin rogue ... feats Alert (L1) and Sharpshooter (L4), go ranged and pump dex after feats (you could skip Alert at level 1, put in Sharpshooter and increase dex at 4, choose Alert at a later level since a gloomstalker will already add wisdom to initiative).

[Bjarkmundur]

Ranger or Archer-Fighter?

Go for a full on stealth-sniper-assassin-deadshot style character.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Um, the paladins player is really....not ok. I know you said he's been fine so far, but people like this are always fine till something doesn't go there way. I don't play with you so I can't say, but it sounds like a guy I've played with, who basically wanted to be the main character.
But regardless, you should play the paladin, or the religious fighter. Let him quit if he doesn't like it, that just shows he's not the kind of person you want in a TEAM game. Your character is your character. You have every right to play a pally, or a religious warrior(within DM constraints). I agree with one of the above posts. You should play a pally. Be polite, ask him why he's so upset, but tell him you like the character, and you have just as much a right to a god as he does.

I thought about saying you should play a Monk because they're sooooo fun, but after reading this I have to agree. Be nice about it for sure. Explain yourself calmly. But the kind of behavior that he's showing is unacceptable in children and it's even more unbecoming if he's an adult. I'm not suggesting you ignore the preferences of your party/DM or you antagonize him in a passive aggressive way. That's equally immature. I am suggesting that you play what you really want to play, maybe with the exception of things like the Wizard idea or the High Elf that have in game reasons to cause major issues with people's characters. Nevertheless, if you want to go Paladin then do it.

Edit: If he's a reasonable person then you can do this without making him feel like he has to leave. Everybody wins.

Side note: It is not helping this guy as a person outside the game to let this sort of thing happen without explaining that it's not an okay response. That doesn't mean you need to dog him about it or throw it in his face, but confronting this sort of behavior in a firm but gentle way often helps. He may end up still leaving, but I really do think this is a situation where you want to stand up for your ability to choose a character autonomously within reason.

[moonfly7]

Please stop telling me I need to play with another group.



Yeah, that is exactly what we are dealing with mostly - undeads masking themselfs as members of the royal court or other important persons, taking over the town one by one...
I'm not suggesting you quit, far from it as I still play with the guy I mentioned, we're still good friends too. What I'm saying is talk to him, really explain what's going on. If you don't mind about the pally thing, great! But talking out any issues, even minor ones, does tend to stop possible issues in the future (although I'm not saying one will happen nessacarily). I think, in all games, prople don't just talk enough. You have an issue, you don't threaten, argue, or cave, everyone sits down and talks about what's happening, what they were thinking or expecting, as politely as possible. After all, everyone's friends right? So having a civil discussion, figuring out why the pally is so against these things, and, once establishing a reason, working to find a character you enjoy by cooperating with the pally, should be easy.
In no way am I saying quit the group, but talking to the person whose actually having an effect on the decision, and would arguably have the best understanding of your meanings, intentions, and group dynamic, would be much more effective than asking strangers on the internet who no nothing about you or your individual roleplaying group.

[stoutstien]

Please stop telling me I need to play with another group.



Yeah, that is exactly what we are dealing with mostly - undeads masking themselfs as members of the royal court or other important persons, taking over the town one by one...

The problem is based on the behavior you see here is we can't help. For all we know you will roll really well and then they will have a problem with that or that the deside that divine casting is off limits. You are trying to by pass a table issue from within the game.

[GorogIrongut]

-Monk is a very viable option. Especially if you like hand to hand. You shouldn't outshine the paladin or the fighter (even though this is less of a concern as the player wants the fighter to die.
-A Druid of the Circle of Dreams would be quite appropriate to play in a city. And the fact that the paladin doesn't have a problem with the warlock means that your ties to the Feywild shouldn't be a problem. Change shapes. Cast spells. And just have a ball.
-You could go a full on bard if you like. No multiclassing. Go for the college of Glamour so that you again can have links with the Feywild. Be a full caster, skill monkey and more importantly an epic Face for the party. Plus bards are fantastic support casters.
-Go for a character that specializes in ranged combat (Ranger or Arcane Archer). You can minmax this without stepping on anyone's toes because no one in your party is really big on ranged combat.
-I know this is right out of left field... but see if the DM lets you try out the new rules for the Artificer. Go full on steampunk Macgyver and never look back. No gods. No religion. No stepping on toes. Hand out a few little magic items/abilities to keep people on your good side and just explore.

Though really, what I would do if I was you is this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24067207&postcount=253

You're useful everywhere. You're great in a city. You add sneak attack, casting, 'luck' you're a fantastic skill monkey. So as to not step on the toes of the Sorceress, claim to have no skills in picking locks. You were only really trained in the more direct forms of thievery.

[AHF]

The problem is based on the behavior you see here is we can't help. For all we know you will roll really well and then they will have a problem with that or that the deside that divine casting is off limits. You are trying to by pass a table issue from within the game.

And it is not at all clear what the real issue is here. The idea that he will quit if anyone else worships a god in a world where gods are demonstrably real and reward their followers is beyond ridiculous. Most people in real life are religious and no faith in real life has such a demonstrable and obvious presence as the fictional gods in D&D. To think that everyone in the party has to avoid having any faith because the Vengeance Paladin (which doesn't seem like the most spiritual archetype to begin with) feels possessive is beyond immature.

So I'm not telling you to quit your group or anything like that but you need to have a conversation and understand what the heart of the problem is in order to be able to identify how to move forward.

Is the issue feeling possessive of being a person of faith? First that is totally unreasonable as noted above. But, second, I haven't seen you propose a character that needs to be faith driven. The paladin 1 / bard 6 can be skinned to know first aid and have a keen insight (perhaps taking expertise in the Insight skill to emphasize this) as a reskinned, non-faith driven explanation for the Divine Sense ability if that ability is part of the main appeal. The Wizard has nothing to do with religion.

Is it an issue of being possessive of being a person driven by an oath? Paladin 1 doesn't pledge an oath so that isn't an issue.

Is it a problem of duplicating the Paladin's special skills? The Paladin 1 build doesn't get the big features of Paladin (aura, spellcasting, fighting style, smite, etc.) so that doesn't seem like a possible explanation. The Wizard certainly doesn't step on his toes.

Is it just because you are choosing the Paladin class, regardless of how different your character concept is? Well, that is consistent with your assessment of him as suffering from pretty terrible insecurity but if you want your character and want to enable his bad behavior then mechanically I'm not sure why you wouldn't just do a Fighter / Bard 6 build. The 5 points of lay on hands gets replaced by 1d10+1 bonus action self-heal and divine sense gets replaced by a fighting style which seems better value for someone you want to swing a sword as a college of swords bard. It also opens you up to taking more fighter levels to give yourself a big boost in combat activity (action surge, archetype and feat coming at next 3 levels) if you later wanted to do so. (Personally, I would probably go straight bard or mix in the hex blade as others have suggested. COS already comes with medium armor, scimitar proficiency, a fighting style and extra blade flourishes. Hex Blade gives you a much bigger mechanical boost as you say you want to impact combat and straight Bard gives you a big gun with the ability to use Greater Invisibility or Polymorph or some other powerful 4th level spell right away.)

[AHF]

-Monk is a very viable option. Especially if you like hand to hand. You shouldn't outshine the paladin or the fighter (even though this is less of a concern as the player wants the fighter to die.
-A Druid of the Circle of Dreams would be quite appropriate to play in a city. And the fact that the paladin doesn't have a problem with the warlock means that your ties to the Feywild shouldn't be a problem. Change shapes. Cast spells. And just have a ball.
-You could go a full on bard if you like. No multiclassing. Go for the college of Glamour so that you again can have links with the Feywild. Be a full caster, skill monkey and more importantly an epic Face for the party. Plus bards are fantastic support casters.
-Go for a character that specializes in ranged combat (Ranger or Arcane Archer). You can minmax this without stepping on anyone's toes because no one in your party is really big on ranged combat.
-I know this is right out of left field... but see if the DM lets you try out the new rules for the Artificer. Go full on steampunk Macgyver and never look back. No gods. No religion. No stepping on toes. Hand out a few little magic items/abilities to keep people on your good side and just explore.

Though really, what I would do if I was you is this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24067207&postcount=253

You're useful everywhere. You're great in a city. You add sneak attack, casting, 'luck' you're a fantastic skill monkey. So as to not step on the toes of the Sorceress, claim to have no skills in picking locks. You were only really trained in the more direct forms of thievery.

Good suggestion but it sounds like he is interested in avoiding Rogue since the other guy wants to go that direction. I'd also be concerned about the paladin's reaction to him wanting to be the party face. I agree Glamor Bard could be really interesting and work very well in that respect but I am willing to bet that the Vengeance Paladin uses his high charisma and OP-described real life verbal abilities to assume that role for the party now and that if he is threatened merely by OP wanting a Paladin 1 build then he would absolutely lose his mind over a Glamor Bard showing him up in the social phase of the game. OP can tell us more but that sounds like a recipe for trouble and maybe not the best build for impacting combat.

The archer idea does sound good if he doesn't want a full caster like the bard and wizard builds he was proposing.

[Reevh]

Good suggestion but it sounds like he is interested in avoiding Rogue since the other guy wants to go that direction. I'd also be concerned about the paladin's reaction to him wanting to be the party face. I agree Glamor Bard could be really interesting and work very well in that respect but I am willing to bet that the Vengeance Paladin uses his high charisma and OP-described real life verbal abilities to assume that role for the party now and that if he is threatened merely by OP wanting a Paladin 1 build then he would absolutely lose his mind over a Glamor Bard showing him up in the social phase of the game. OP can tell us more but that sounds like a recipe for trouble and maybe not the best build for impacting combat.

The archer idea does sound good if he doesn't want a full caster like the bard and wizard builds he was proposing.

She? I don't know about the player, but the characters the OP mentioned were female.

[GorogIrongut]

Good suggestion but it sounds like he is interested in avoiding Rogue since the other guy wants to go that direction. I'd also be concerned about the paladin's reaction to him wanting to be the party face. I agree Glamor Bard could be really interesting and work very well in that respect but I am willing to bet that the Vengeance Paladin uses his high charisma and OP-described real life verbal abilities to assume that role for the party now and that if he is threatened merely by OP wanting a Paladin 1 build then he would absolutely lose his mind over a Glamor Bard showing him up in the social phase of the game. OP can tell us more but that sounds like a recipe for trouble and maybe not the best build for impacting combat.

The archer idea does sound good if he doesn't want a full caster like the bard and wizard builds he was proposing.

Lol. In their campaign, the most useful addition to their party would be a cleric (see the undead). See how touchy the Paladin is about an Arcana Cleric (modeled so he worships the total sum of magic, rather than a specific goddess like Mystra). Sorted. Cause while you are a cleric... you're also a wizard.

Make a different wizard to play in this particular campaign. There are loads of less creepy options to be found (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170) or just ask your DM what bits from the backstory of your character are 'offensive' and then remove them.

Or... since the paladin seems to be the difficult part of this equation, why don't you ask him? Tell him that you've tried a couple possible character ideas but that nothing seems to be meshing properly. And tell him you value his opinion and would like to know what he thinks you should play.

You pay him a compliment which helps with the low self esteem. You get given suggestions that he can't really argue with, because he gave them to you. And you've given him an incentive to make your character succeed, because he had a part (however small) in helping create it. It might stick in the craw a bit to do it this way, but if all you care about is results, this is the fastest way around your problem.

[AHF]

Lol. In their campaign, the most useful addition to their party would be a cleric (see the undead). See how touchy the Paladin is about an Arcana Cleric (modeled so he worships the total sum of magic, rather than a specific goddess like Mystra). Sorted. Cause while you are a cleric... you're also a wizard.

Make a different wizard to play in this particular campaign. There are loads of less creepy options to be found (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170) or just ask your DM what bits from the backstory of your character are 'offensive' and then remove them.

Or... since the paladin seems to be the difficult part of this equation, why don't you ask him? Tell him that you've tried a couple possible character ideas but that nothing seems to be meshing properly. And tell him you value his opinion and would like to know what he thinks you should play.

You pay him a compliment which helps with the low self esteem. You get given suggestions that he can't really argue with, because he gave them to you. And you've given him an incentive to make your character succeed, because he had a part (however small) in helping create it. It might stick in the craw a bit to do it this way, but if all you care about is results, this is the fastest way around your problem.

Good practical advice here for sure. Now I’m waiting for the next post of “After lathering on the compliments, I told the Paladin I was thinking Arcana Cleric and when he learned how good that could be against undead (and that he could heal, turn undead, etc) he said he would quit if I did that because worshipping a god and being good against undead are his thing. He won’t stop me from doing it but if I play someone like this it will ruin the game for him and he’ll take his dice and go home. The DM banned us from any divine classes and any class with special abilities similar to the Paladin chassis.”

(Seriously, cooopting this fragile ego into an ally to sell your new character is good advice to getting back on track. No idea how he would react to aracana cleric since I still don’t understand the root of the issue and triggers for the player.)

[Trampaige]

The game is PHB+Xanthar's only, and the DM has banned duplicate classes, but a lot of people sure keep recommending bard and warlock and off-book stuff.

I'm not going to add a voice that says you should leave the game, but I'm going to bring up something that hasn't really been touched on.

Your martial character died, and you're glad, because she was too weak to keep up with the party.
The other martial in the party actively wants to die, because he's too weak to keep up with the party.
The DM told the paladin, the only other martial, to use overpowered stats (even though they were legitly obtained) and his character is dominating combat, exploration (ferreting out undead, the most powerful ability in the campaign so far) and IRL dynamics.

Your DM doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of balancing the game, nor really care to. Is there something else going on? Are they best friends? Sleeping together? Paladin player's house is where the game is? Does he have a good job or general high social standing in the group?

Because I was in a game where a number of those factors were at play, including overpowered character with rampant favoritism (and blatant cheating), and very little was done about it. It got to the point where I loved the game, I enjoyed playing my character, but it became so sour to basically be a supporting character to someone else's ego that I wanted to quit the game. IRL circumstances occurred (involving the problem player) and the game was dissolved.

I get that you don't want to quit the game, and I wouldn't have either if the decision hadn't been made for me. Just, make sure you're not spending 3-6 hours a week in an environment that's actively making you more stressed out because of a sunk cost. Nor just filling a chair for other peoples' power fantasies.

I will echo that you can't create a character on your own because everything you've tried has been shot down. The DM has vetoed you multiple times based off of other characters in the party. Talk with him, not the paladin, to find out what will fit.

Then, assuming he doesn't double check with everyone else first, see if the other players have a meltdown again. You'll know who's game it is.

[AHF]

I will echo that you can't create a character on your own because everything you've tried has been shot down. The DM has vetoed you multiple times based off of other characters in the party. Talk with him, not the paladin, to find out what will fit.

Then, assuming he doesn't double check with everyone else first, see if the other players have a meltdown again. You'll know who's game it is.

It has already been tested and is already clear that the DM is subservient to the player playing the Paladin. We don’t know the full dynamics at play, but it seems obvious to me you will need both of their buy-in to make it work in this situation.

[Tallytrev813]

Will the GM allow an Artificer?

[Trampaige]

It has already been tested and is already clear that the DM is subservient to the player playing the Paladin. We don’t know the full dynamics at play, but it seems obvious to me you will need both of their buy-in to make it work in this situation.

Sure. Sometimes it takes a few lessons before it sticks, though. And maybe just a quirk of mine that I enjoy seeing it happen.

[Tawmis]

Hi,
And my personal problem:
Our human vengeance paladin. He rolled totally op stats - legit, we were at the table and rolled one after the other. He asked our GM to nerf his rolles but the DM told him he should keep them as they are. So after one ASI he has 18str, 20con and 18cha. all the others above 14. He is our best single target damage dealer, our face - the player also talks really really good in RL, our best tank and a decent healer and debuffer.


my first attempt and finding my new place was a warmage - just because I always wanted to play one. I went woodelf paladin 1 / bard x and went for college of swords. Our GM was ok with it. As our paladin learned that I am also a paladin he flipped OT and said if I want to play a paladin I should have asked him first and he would leave the group if I went for it. (Dude doesn't look like it but has some bad confidence issues it seems). I said I could play him as a religious fighter1/bardx for peace but he still wanted to be the only player with a god... in the end he was so upset, I stepped back and told him I would make a new char.

I really need your help.
eye

Honest to gods, this is not a healthy D&D group.
First - the Paladin who rolled the incredible stats and asked the DM to "nerf" them - but then proceeded to put the three best rolls in the three best slots for a Paladin? If the Paladin "truly" wanted (if the ask of the "nerf" was sincere) - why didn't the Paladin put only ONE of those great rolls in a useful spot for the Paladin (say like Charisma) and put the other stats in INT and WIS? Clearly, though asking if the DM wanted to nerf it - the Paladin in truth did not want to.

And then to FREAK out that you were going to cross into a Paladin? Honestly? Does he not understand the concept of adventurers?

And then the DM declines the Wizard, because the Paladin will kill them? How is the DM not punishing the Paladin for killing someone who isn't proven to be against whatever it is the Paladin stands for. A Paladin might have a horrible background with Halflings who killed his family; but there's no way any (good or even neutral) god would permit the Paladin to slaughter EVERY halfling based on the actions of a few.

So both the DM and the Paladin seem to be ill fitted for a healthy game.

That's my 2 cents.

[Bigmouth]

I never really considered druids, because I saw them as a kind of hippy vegan loner in the woods, afraid of cities, fire and metal. Playing them in the slums of a city with wild cat, mouse and rat friends never occured to me and I think will be fun and makes a really good spy. So i think I'm going with this concept. Thank you all again for your help. And for showing me a different approach to a class I never really wanted to play.

I hope this works out for you Eyekona. I definitely sounds like it could be fun.

I won't suggest a character for you to play, since you've already found one to try.

Offtopic, I think that we should be a bit less judgemental to Mr. Paladin. We aren't at the table. He asked to have his stats nerfed, but GM said no. Then we hate on him for not allocating his stats poorly?Building a mechanically sound character is something some people really enjoy, forcing them to build a anti-optimized character seems rather unfair. Hating on him for being upset about Eyekona's paladin build is much more justified, but there could be reasons for the strong reaction. My best friend, who I've gamed with for 25+ years has a thing for 'schtick'. His desire for his schtick to his and his alone has increased over the years, thanks to some people we played with constantly liking his concept so much they would steal it. He would quit a game over it, not from a desire to "take his ball and go home" but more from the fact he wasn't going to have fun, and he didn't want to ask the other person to stop playing their character. He also tries to reinforce the schtick of the other characters so that in his head, they will have more fun (even if the other folks don't actually feel the need for that schtick.) I'm not saying Eyekona's Paladin is the same as my friend in this regard, but there is probably a story behind their actions.
Also, we don't know that the DM is a horrible DM either, or that there is favoritism going on. Everyone is so eager to tell Eyekona to jump ship and run, even when Eyekona made it clear that they didn't want to, which suggests it isn't a horrible table. The only thing we can definitely say is that they made a horrible decision to roll for stats. (Double ugh!)

[AHF]

No, we know enough to see the DM and Paladin deserve real criticism. The Paladin didn’t ask for an adjustment but threatened to quit. The guy was 1 level of Paladin. How much duplication is that really? Not much. And the DM just vetoes a wizard without offering minor tweaks because a PC will inexplicably attack them on sight? There is no way minor tweaking couldn’t have gotten him there given that you’ve already got a Sorcerer in the group and there needs to be some give and take and the only one doing it here is the OP. So the problem is real and obvious but not everyone is suggesting finding another group - lots of ideas to try to help out. Don’t see much problem here.

[Mikaleus]

Funnily enough this is the most useful skill in our entire campain.


I never really considered druids, because I saw them as a kind of hippy vegan loner in the woods, afraid of cities, fire and metal. Playing them in the slums of a city with wild cat, mouse and rat friends never occured to me and I think will be fun and makes a really good spy. So i think I'm going with this concept. Thank you all again for your help. And for showing me a different approach to a class I never really wanted to play.

Hey awesome glad I (and others) could help with the Druidic concept.
Druids are fun to play :)

[Tawmis]

Offtopic, I think that we should be a bit less judgemental to Mr. Paladin. We aren't at the table. He asked to have his stats nerfed, but GM said no. Then we hate on him for not allocating his stats poorly?


Let's be clear, I never said I hate him.
I simply doubt their sincerity about their Stats being nerfed.
As this thread suggests, the Paladin seems to have a thrall over the DM to get their way.
So the Paladin probably knew the DM would be like, "Naw, all good."
If the Paladin was sincere about the stats being an issue; why maximize their character with the rolls?
Why not say, "I don't want to be uber compared to everyone else; let me spread this around."
This is why I doubt their sincerity; but certainly don't "hate" them for maximizing their character.

But as I said in my post, and I will say it now, that's my 2 cents.

Simply from my kazillion years of playing.

Your mileage, naturally, may vary as you make take a different road down the "Freeway of D&D."

[eyekona]

So much to reply to.

First things first. Yes, our DM is new. It is his first time DMing. He makes some wrong descisions based on his low experience. He thought the stats won't be a problem, he will just make stronger monsters - not taking into account that others might roll low instead of high. We already talked this through and now there is a boundary for rolls to low and to high. He still likes rolling *sigh* for more diversity and more crazy concepts... But his storytelling is super good and he never fails to surprise us, so we all are ok with him still learning and we have feedback meetings regularly.

He didn't know our paladin player before that and we rolled our chars the first time we met.

I'm the veteran of this group - or the grandmother as they tell me ;D (yeah a female player ^^) Being 38 and playing since ADnD first came out. But I got stuck on 3.5 untill last year, so maybe that's why I feel so limited in 5E with only this two books. We only have access to classes/races the GM owns the book to. Which I'm totally ok with. So we get new races and classes in the long run and he can gradually get to know them.

Naturally at this age I'm the host, having a big enough house and miniatures and stuff.

Our paladin player is the second youngest with the youngest being the DM himself. So I tend do be more forgiving on them for being young. Paladin and I talked a lot about what happened in the following weeks and though not agreeing with him I understand why this matters to him and he apologised fo his overreaction but still asked me to not play this char and I agreed. I will just have it as a backup in my second group and have my also prepared wizard as a backup for my now current char in the making. We are at the moment unraveling the past of our paladin so I will know by then what I will need to change for her to be playable.

Paladin offered to make a char with me, but I know how stressed out he is organising larps and having a tough job at the same time and I don't want to further steal his time. Also I like doing this alone and really getting to know my chars before I play them.

I was not looking to solve our groups problems here, I was merely looking for some fun chars which would fit in and have a proper place in the group contributing to gameplay and fight. And I found one that sounds super cool so thank you all for your ideas. I might steal one or two for later games ;D

[Tawmis]

I was not looking to solve our groups problems here, I was merely looking for some fun chars which would fit in and have a proper place in the group contributing to gameplay and fight.


Ah, in that case - with the DM being new, young, etc., etc., you could also ask the DM, "What classes and race combos do you think I would be able to play?"

Jot down all of he combos the DM suggests and see if one speaks to you.

I am just curious if the Paladin might see the Druid as another "holy" character (since Druids worship nature/gods, and that's where they get their powers from!) :smallconfused:

[Tallytrev813]

Will the GM allow an Artificer?

^^^^

I think if the class is allowed at the table it will fit in well. You could play an Alchemist, filling the ranged damage spot you were trying to fill with Ranger, and having a really useful Homunculous. Out of combat, you're the potion master.

[Nagog]

I'd go Monk, way of the open hand, or a Cleric of some kind. Neither have mandatory religious bends, so you could play them as whatever you like. Frankly this Paladin player sounds like a douchebag, so I'd go for a War Domain Cleric specifically to step on his toes as a martial healer, and get some powerbuilding advice on here to build them in such a way that if the paladin does try and kill them, your cleric could kill them in self defense. Once they're dead, the party is in the clear to play whatever class/race they want. When one player feels the need to enforce what they want in the part, D&D becomes less of a fun game and more of a few hours of babysitting.

Another big problem with creating new characters here is that you have a few folks multiclassing (or planning on doing so), a limit on the sources you can get class/subclass information from, and a DM that is pandering to this player's need to not have anybody have anything close to them in terms of class.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

So much to reply to.

First things first. Yes, our DM is new. It is his first time DMing. He makes some wrong descisions based on his low experience. He thought the stats won't be a problem, he will just make stronger monsters - not taking into account that others might roll low instead of high. We already talked this through and now there is a boundary for rolls to low and to high. He still likes rolling *sigh* for more diversity and more crazy concepts... But his storytelling is super good and he never fails to surprise us, so we all are ok with him still learning and we have feedback meetings regularly.

He didn't know our paladin player before that and we rolled our chars the first time we met.

I'm the veteran of this group - or the grandmother as they tell me ;D (yeah a female player ^^) Being 38 and playing since ADnD first came out. But I got stuck on 3.5 untill last year, so maybe that's why I feel so limited in 5E with only this two books. We only have access to classes/races the GM owns the book to. Which I'm totally ok with. So we get new races and classes in the long run and he can gradually get to know them.

Naturally at this age I'm the host, having a big enough house and miniatures and stuff.

Our paladin player is the second youngest with the youngest being the DM himself. So I tend do be more forgiving on them for being young. Paladin and I talked a lot about what happened in the following weeks and though not agreeing with him I understand why this matters to him and he apologised fo his overreaction but still asked me to not play this char and I agreed. I will just have it as a backup in my second group and have my also prepared wizard as a backup for my now current char in the making. We are at the moment unraveling the past of our paladin so I will know by then what I will need to change for her to be playable.

Paladin offered to make a char with me, but I know how stressed out he is organising larps and having a tough job at the same time and I don't want to further steal his time. Also I like doing this alone and really getting to know my chars before I play them.

I was not looking to solve our groups problems here, I was merely looking for some fun chars which would fit in and have a proper place in the group contributing to gameplay and fight. And I found one that sounds super cool so thank you all for your ideas. I might steal one or two for later games ;D

That's really helpful and concise context that you've given those of us following this thread closely. So now that I'm not concerned about the out-of-game dynamics so much, I'll go back to suggesting a Monk.

You should totally do the Druid if you want, but I would encourage at least comparing and contrasting it with some of the Monk subclasses. Monks got fixed in this edition and are a ton of fun. They're not necessarily religious, they're just devoted to ideals or concepts. You could be a monk focused on his or her body and attaining physical perfection. Dost thou even lift? There's nothing better than your party trying to cross a narrow beam over a long spike/fire trap in a hallway and the monk just running on the wall across the whole thing or walking across the narrow beam on his/her hands just to show off. xD It could bring many laughs.

[moonfly7]

I know you said only books he owns, but artificer, suggested already, is free for everyone on the web, and it is really cool. Although youd be heavily a support, you would be the guy enchanting your bros armor, and giving them goodies. It makes you feel nice and wanted. I'd suggest artillerist, for the options. You can make wands really fast, having lots of options without wasting slots, you get a heavy long range turret in the force ballista, an actual flame thrower turret, and a turret that can grant temporary hp to anyone near it, allowing for shielding of comrades.
If your DM doesn't like UAC content, I'd suggest moon druid. Your party could probably use a second frontliner, and moon druid is AWESOME to play. You get plenty of fun spells, covering the caster angle you wanted with the wizard, and you can become a rhino or a kodiac bear or even a rust monster. With whats basically a flood of temp hp from wild shape, you get to take hits, hit back, and while human, cast pretty awesome spells, which you CAN keep concentrating on while in beast form, you can also cast stuff like barkskin on yourself before changing and it stays.
As for backstory, Tawmis, whose posted here, has a thread where he types up backstories for folks. He's amazing, and I've had him do me a couple. They always impress. I'd hit him up for a backstory, at least to get your brain working, if I were you.

[KorvinStarmast]

For eyekona

{artificer suggestion}
I think if the class is allowed at the table it will fit in well. You could play an Alchemist, filling the ranged damage spot you were trying to fill with Ranger, and having a really useful Homunculous. Out of combat, you're the potion master. I will suggest against the artificer, even though tally's points are good ones.

You are the OP and you said DM is youngest in the group, and also this is their first time DMing. Artificer is very fiddly. It is already a source of imbalance in the game I am running, but luckily I have mature / experienced players, so they just shrug and we keep going.

I'd suggest you go with the Druid idea that you have come up with. That looks like a great fit and a lot of fun.

(As to AD&D: I'll guess that you refer to 2d Edition AD&D (the more organized one with the nice clean art work) that came out around 1989/1990. AD&D 1e (the somewhat clunkier version) came out a year or two before you were born. (1977-1979 MM-PHB-DMG) when I was in college)

I think it's great that you are hosting the game and trying to make it work - I tip my cap to you.

[King of Nowhere]

Yeah, he did not say I cannot play the paladin, he said HE WOULD LEAVE if I played the paladin.

Passive-aggressive.
the worst kind of bully, because they often don't realize they are bullies and they can play the victim quite well, often tricking others.


Um, the paladins player is really....not ok. I know you said he's been fine so far, but people like this are always fine till something doesn't go there way.
exactly. that's how bullies get what they want. they are fine until something don't go their way. and people around them will bend over to ensure that things keep gooing their way, so that they will keep being fine.
it's like saying that a mobster is perfectly fine as long as you pay your protection money.

[KorvinStarmast]

Passive-aggressive.
the worst kind of bully, because they often don't realize they are bullies and they can play the victim quite well, often tricking others.

that's how bullies get what they want. they are fine until something don't go their way. and people around them will bend over to ensure that things keep gooing their way, so that they will keep being fine.
it's like saying that a mobster is perfectly fine as long as you pay your protection money. The game does not happen in a vacuum (there is a social context) and people are imperfect. What appears to be the case is that our OP is a warm hearted person who is trying to make the best of an imperfect situation so that the social group she is playing with keeps coming over to play.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the imperfection of one of the players, but "fixing the player" isn't the advice being asked for here. Also, breaking up the group of people isn't an option as I read the OP and her responses.

[Tallytrev813]

For eyekona
I will suggest against the artificer, even though tally's points are good ones.

You are the OP and you said DM is youngest in the group, and also this is their first time DMing. Artificer is very fiddly. It is already a source of imbalance in the game I am running, but luckily I have mature / experienced players, so they just shrug and we keep going.

I'd suggest you go with the Druid idea that you have come up with. That looks like a great fit and a lot of fun.

(As to AD&D: I'll guess that you refer to 2d Edition AD&D (the more organized one with the nice clean art work) that came out around 1989/1990. AD&D 1e (the somewhat clunkier version) came out a year or two before you were born. (1977-1979 MM-PHB-DMG) when I was in college)

I think it's great that you are hosting the game and trying to make it work - I tip my cap to you.

What have you found to be imbalanced about Artificer?
Im currently playing both an Alchemist, and an Archivist. Both have goods and bads, neither appears overpowered thus far. Though, We did have to nerf the context of Artificial mind to require LOS of the caster to attack.

[Tawmis]

The game does not happen in a vacuum (there is a social context) and people are imperfect. What appears to be the case is that our OP is a warm hearted person who is trying to make the best of an imperfect situation so that the social group she is playing with keeps coming over to play.
I don't disagree with your assessment of the imperfection of one of the players, but "fixing the player" isn't the advice being asked for here. Also, breaking up the group of people isn't an option as I read the OP and her responses.

Well, I think the point is - while I agree, the OP has a wonderful heart and such and "fixing the player" is not the concern.
I think, presented all the facts of, you could try playing RACE_CLASS_01 is a fine suggestion.
But when the DM shoots down the next thing (since the Multiclass was out thanks to the Paladin), stating the Paladin would kill the Wizard, without providing a reason why...
We can offer all the RACE_CLASS_01 suggestions in the world; but between the Paladin's "passive aggressive" behavior and the DM's "dismissive" behavior, there are those of us, who say, "You can try this RACE_CLASS_01, but it does sound like playing in this group may be especially difficult."

I'd feel odd, just saying "Try RACE_CLASS_01" without noting, given the details that were provided, additional thoughts on the situation in general.

It'd be like someone coming on here saying, "My boyfriend beats me daily, but I want to find a good way to surprise him for his birthday."

We could all provide great ideas for a great surprise birthday, sure - but I don't think any of us wouldn't also voice the concern of the daily beatings.

Know what I mean?

[KorvinStarmast]

What have you found to be imbalanced about Artificer?
Im currently playing both an Alchemist, and an Archivist. Both have goods and bads, neither appears overpowered thus far. Though, We did have to nerf the context of Artificial mind to require LOS of the caster to attack. So far, the addition of free magic items (infusions), and the ability to switch out cantrips, and the fct that with all of the fiddly bits the Artificer player has a lot to explain and is frequently trying to get us to slow down so that they can get things to make things from.

Again, we have a pretty mature group, but the Artificer does not fit D&D 5e at all, in terms of tone and power level, unless you are playing in Bberron, or a high magic campaign. And I do not run a high magic campaign.

Some of the features? Neat. It has great potential, to be sure, but as it is currently written it is bloated.

[KorvinStarmast]

Know what I mean? I sure do. The points made about the root cause are (I am sure) being offered from experiences and the bad tastes in the mouths from bad experiences. I've had them also.

What I can't do is reach through the internet and get a feel for the "vibe" at the table among all of the players, and then try to act as a mediator for that group. All I can do is offer this one person an idea that can fit within her constraints.

The OP has asked for help and has provided "here are my constraints."

So any suggestion needs to fit within those constraints.

Yes, it's not a perfect situation, but neither are the three games that I am in. None of them are perfect. But they are good enough and we have fun because that is what we are focused on.

If she can get an idea - both Monk and Druid fit her needs - from someone here, then it's a team win.

Will that Paladin player ever grow into a better person? Hopefully.

For the OP: If you want to mix it up in combat, a Moon Druid will fit the bill. So would any of the Monks, but I'd stay away from Four Elements since its mechanics break down: ki runs out too fast. If you all make it to 10th level, Turning into an Elemental quite simply rocks. (Well, the earth elementa anyway)

[Reevh]

I sure do. The points made about the root cause are (I am sure) being offered from experiences and the bad tastes in the mouths from bad experiences. I've had them also.

What I can't do is reach through the internet and get a feel for the "vibe" at the table among all of the players, and then try to act as a mediator for that group. All I can do is offer this one person an idea that can fit within her constraints.

The OP has asked for help and has provided "here are my constraints."

So any suggestion needs to fit within those constraints.

Yes, it's not a perfect situation, but neither are the three games that I am in. None of them are perfect. But they are good enough and we have fun because that is what we are focused on.

If she can get an idea - both Monk and Druid fit her needs - from someone here, then it's a team win.

Will that Paladin player ever grow into a better person? Hopefully.

For the OP: If you want to mix it up in combat, a Moon Druid will fit the bill. So would any of the Monks, but I'd stay away from Four Elements since its mechanics break down: ki runs out too fast. If you all make it to 10th level, Turning into an Elemental quite simply rocks. (Well, the earth elementa anyway)

Yes. Plus more generally, she's a 37 year old woman who probably has enough life experience to figure out on her own how she wants to approach these issues, which is probably a big piece of why she constrained her question to not requesting help with the table's social dynamics.

[Tallytrev813]

So far, the addition of free magic items (infusions), and the ability to switch out cantrips, and the fct that with all of the fiddly bits the Artificer player has a lot to explain and is frequently trying to get us to slow down so that they can get things to make things from.

Again, we have a pretty mature group, but the Artificer does not fit D&D 5e at all, in terms of tone and power level, unless you are playing in Bberron, or a high magic campaign. And I do not run a high magic campaign.

Some of the features? Neat. It has great potential, to be sure, but as it is currently written it is bloated.

I see.

I havent had the problem of slowing down the campaign, my turns are typically consumed by Firing 2 ranged attacks + my Homunculus taking a bonus action attack or use of Salv for 10 ft flight or something. Infrequent heals or lesser restorations i use...thats really it. I havent switched out any cantrips yet - You typically want Guidance and Mending (to heal your pet), so theres only really 1 more cantrip spot.

Dunno. Id still recommend it to the OP - sorry thats been your experience.

[eyekona]

No Artificer for me. But thank you anyway :-)

So there are two more suggenstions coming up repeatedly.
Way of the open palm monk and moon druid.

To be honest - after reading the moon druid section of the book I see why you like him. I just can't really see him working in our setting. Even if I play him like "kind mother bear" or something like this, there would be a mass panic when someone sees me turning into a bear and I would be on wanted posters sooner then later. We often have some guards as company and they might not like that either...

Monk on the other hand I normally stay clear of, because of how broken they were in 3.5. If you say they are fixed - what do you guys think about the drunken master monk? Open palm is stronger, I can see that. But does it work ok? I'm thinking more like tavern brawler style and not meditation monk style.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

No Artificer for me. But thank you anyway :-)

So there are two more suggenstions coming up repeatedly.
Way of the open palm monk and moon druid.

To be honest - after reading the moon druid section of the book I see why you like him. I just can't really see him working in our setting. Even if I play him like "kind mother bear" or something like this, there would be a mass panic when someone sees me turning into a bear and I would be on wanted posters sooner then later. We often have some guards as company and they might not like that either...

Monk on the other hand I normally stay clear of, because of how broken they were in 3.5. If you say they are fixed - what do you guys think about the drunken master monk? Open palm is stronger, I can see that. But does it work ok? I'm thinking more like tavern brawler style and not meditation monk style.

You can always travel with a package of exotic saddles, the guards will like a strong mount to fight with(if you can ignore all the inappropriate jokes).
That is where all my low level money gos when I play a moon druid.
If you are part of the law long arm you will not be wanted, you will be a special unit (work on it with the DM, have a police tag that stays on you when you wild shape).

And the drunken master is nice it's power is in fighting against more then one enemy. I see it as a problem as monk is best at disabling one enemy and getting out of harms way. It is not a real problem.

[eyekona]

You can always travel with a package of exotic saddles, the guards will like a strong mount to fight with(if you can ignore all the inappropriate jokes).
That is where all my low level money gos when I play a moon druid.
If you are part of the law long arm you will not be wanted, you will be a special unit (work on it with the DM, have a police tag that stays on you when you wild shape).

Oh lol. Made my day, thank you very much. :D

So now there are 3 really great and fun concepts for me to work on. For classes I never considered playing. As I like building chars I'm really happy with the outcome of this thread. Thank you all very much.

[Dimcair]

Y R U playing with them.... They sound like *****

[KorvinStarmast]

Monk on the other hand I normally stay clear of, because of how broken they were in 3.5. If you say they are fixed - what do you guys think about the drunken master monk? Open palm is stronger, I can see that. But does it work ok? I'm thinking more like tavern brawler style and not meditation monk style. They are not broken in 5e, but they are a skirmisher more than a tank. I'll suggest checking out a few of the guides here on GiTP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19588595&postcount=1) for more details. This one includes Xanathar monks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23087194&postcount=1). I suggest maxing Wis before Dex in order to get better DC's on saves versus your stunning strike.

What kind of monk? I like way of the open hand. A lot of people like the Way of the Shadows. The one I played for a while (levels 4 and 5) was pretty fun. Nice combo of sneak and smack.

You'll also be a nice complement to the paladin: when you stun an enemy the paladin gets advantage on attacks as a follow up. As a team you can go nova on some of the bigger enemies. Also, it's fun to catch missiles (to reduce or negate damage) and then throw them back. :smallcool:

I really like the "at level 6, your unarmed attacks are magical for purposes of bypassing resistance." That makes a monk nearly item independent. If you have Xanathar's Guide, you could also try Sun Soul monk. I played one at 10th level for a one shot. Really enjoyed it.

I suggest that you give monk a try if some of the great ideas for the moon druid don't feel right.

Y R U playing with them.... They sound like ***** She explained that in the OP and in responses to various questions. "Change groups" is not an option. "Come up with a way forward, here are my constraints" is the help being asked for, and she got it. :smallsmile:


I see.

I havent had the problem of slowing down the campaign, my turns are typically consumed by Firing 2 ranged attacks + my Homunculus taking a bonus action attack or use of Salv for 10 ft flight or something. Infrequent heals or lesser restorations i use...thats really it. I havent switched out any cantrips yet - You typically want Guidance and Mending (to heal your pet), so theres only really 1 more cantrip spot.

Dunno. Id still recommend it to the OP - sorry thats been your experience. My guy has gone artillerest (but honestly? I wish he'd gone Alchemist because I'd have loved to see what he did with homunculus). It has a lot of interesting features, that's for sure.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Monk on the other hand I normally stay clear of, because of how broken they were in 3.5. If you say they are fixed - what do you guys think about the drunken master monk? Open palm is stronger, I can see that. But does it work ok? I'm thinking more like tavern brawler style and not meditation monk style.

If that seems interesting to you and you don't think the Druid would fit your setting, then you should absolutely go for it! It'll work great on a mechanical level, even if you're not the most strong. Plus, if you roll 2-3 great stats then you're set. I agree that focusing on Wis is a good option. I didn't do that when I played a monk, and I think it would've helped a lot. My party was different though so I served a different role. I haven't played the Drunken Master, but I've heard plenty of good things and some very funny stories.

[Reevh]

Yeah, nailing a stunning strike really tees up the paladin for some big numbers, so I agree with the others about pumping Wisdom.

[furby076]

Play a straight ancients paladin. Call him a Natures Warrior. The other player has no right to see your character sheet.

Net net, just play what YOU want and let no player tell you what to do. Work with the DM for appropriate story that isn't conflicting...if a member of the group hates elves, then its kind of hard for you to become a member of the group as an elf...and its not like that player was targeting you

Oh, and take a look at version 3 of the Mystic. Play vhuman mystic, with alert feat. You can do everything, though aren't necessarily the strongest. There are tons of options and variations so you can go from stealth, to battle (like a sorcerer, except better)

[eyekona]

Just wanted to tell you, how it went out.
In the end I made two new chars.

My Druid, who lives as a beggar in the slums of the main city. He steals as a mouse or rat, he turns into a snake and milks himself for poison to sell, and he turns into a squirrel to spy on the rich. He's kinda young and stupid and sells all stuff way to low, just to have food for the next few days.

My Barb 1/Monk x dwarf who has some real anger problems, mainly if anybody says anything about her bright red beard. I built her as a str and not dex based char, so she can rage, run straight in, grapple the boss and hit his nose till he is out.

As I liked both concepts very much and could not decide, I drew pictures of both of them, told race and class and let my group decide which one they wanted. We had 4 sessions by now, with my new char, and I am very happy with my monk girl. She is good but not overpowered and feels awesome to play! And I'm really looking forward to playing the druid in a 3-days-"oneshot" I'm participating in this weekend.

So thank you all for your patience and help. :-)

[Keravath]

No Artificer for me. But thank you anyway :-)

So there are two more suggenstions coming up repeatedly.
Way of the open palm monk and moon druid.

To be honest - after reading the moon druid section of the book I see why you like him. I just can't really see him working in our setting. Even if I play him like "kind mother bear" or something like this, there would be a mass panic when someone sees me turning into a bear and I would be on wanted posters sooner then later. We often have some guards as company and they might not like that either...

Monk on the other hand I normally stay clear of, because of how broken they were in 3.5. If you say they are fixed - what do you guys think about the drunken master monk? Open palm is stronger, I can see that. But does it work ok? I'm thinking more like tavern brawler style and not meditation monk style.

The 5e Monk is a lot of fun so far. I love the mobility. I have a level 5 and took the mobile feat allowing him to run faster and run in, attack and run back without taking op attacks from his targets.

My personal pick was the Way of Shadows. I think Open palm is probably mechanically more powerful because of the rider effects they get on their flurry of blows. They can knock the target prone or shove them back as well as take away their reaction. The options mean that they can run up, knock over the target next to your melee, giving them advantage on attacks against an adjacent target unless the target stands up before their turn. However, Way of Shadows has the ability to cast situationally very useful spells using ki points - darkness, silence, pass without trace, darkvision - and at level 6 they pick up the shadow step ability to bonus action teleport up to 60' into a dimly lit or dark area. This is amazing mobility and can allow the monk to get to places other characters will have trouble getting to.

Ki is a short rest resource so as long as the monk gets some short rests during the day they will be good for most fights.

P.S. Ooops ... didn't read the last post before posting :) ... glad to see you chose the monk, they are loads of fun.

[Petrocorus]

Our party:
A halfelf Sorc,....
A human fighter who is too weak also and can't keep up. .... And I think he wants him to die. (He rolled really really bad stats and hp)
A halfelf bard1/warlock 6 who heals and buffs and is really really smart and has a familiar and excells in revealing the unknown

And my personal problem:
Our human vengeance paladin. He rolled totally op stats - legit, we were at the table and rolled one after the other. He asked our GM to nerf his rolles but the DM told him he should keep them as they are. So after one ASI he has 18str, 20con and 18cha. all the others above 14. He is our best single target damage dealer, our face - the player also talks really really good in RL, our best tank and a decent healer and debuffer.

Emphasis mine.

You just describe exactly the main reason i utterly dislike rolling stats.
Seriously, half of your table's issue seems to stem from this.

The other half stem from the behaviour of the Pally's player and the GM apparently condoning it.

Both are out-of-game issues and you should try to talk about them out of game.

In-game, you can go for a Druid as other have suggested, or go back for the warmage but with a different background.