Maximizing Tenser's Transformation

[Talsin]

I had an idea about how to best Maximize a spell that many people seem to see as underpowered / weak / niche / not good.
How would you go about making the most out of Tenser's Transformation?
It's self-cast so you have to be the one to cast it.

I have my own build for this, but I would like to hear what you guys can come up with first!

[Damon_Tor]

An illusionist wizard could use Disguise Self to make himself illusory full plate, then turn it into real armor once tenders has been cast.

[PeteNutButter]

I had an idea about how to best Maximize a spell that many people seem to see as underpowered / weak / niche / not good.
How would you go about making the most out of Tenser's Transformation?
It's self-cast so you have to be the one to cast it.

I have my own build for this, but I would like to hear what you guys can come up with first!

Some type of bard seems like the obvious approach. You're slightly better off in combat to start and potentially getting more out of it. Whispers is commonly suggested because then you aren't doubling up on extra attack, but considering the spell's limited up time, I'd say valor/swords are better. Share the spell with your Find Greater Steed and dump out tons of d12s.

[stoutstien]

The fact it works with ranged weapons is overlooked a lot.

[Talsin]

Some tpye of bard seems like the obvious approach. You're slightly better off in combat to start and potentially getting more out of it. Whispers is commonly suggested because then you aren't doubling up on extra attack, but considering the spell's limited up time, I'd say valor/swords are better. Share the spell with your Find Greater Steed and dump out tons of d12s.

I'm definitely feeling the bard, but why would you say Valor/Swords would be better than Whispers?

[lperkins2]

Pity it uses concentration. That said, I could see it with an assassin 3/bard x as a great way to crit fish on the opening round. Maybe add paladin 2 to dump spell slots for smiting. Means not coming online till level 15...

Anyway, 2 attacks, with advantage, with a xbow:
1d10 - xbow
2d6 - Sneak Attack
2d12 - force
5d8 - smite
+5 - dex

Average 53 damage per hit. Sharpshooter -5/+10 might be worth it, since you'd be attacking with advantage. If your DM lets you surprise targets with any regularity, you get to auto-crit on hits on the first round, which pushes it to 101 avg damage, per hit, or 200 damage for the round.

[No brains]

A wizard could cast Tenser's Transformation into a Glyph of Warding, put on Plate and then activate the glyph. There's still the matter of this taking 1 hour 10 minites to do, but with teleport or some other means of moving quick, it is possible to deploy this strat in a dungeon.

[JackPhoenix]

A wizard could cast Tenser's Transformation into a Glyph of Warding, put on Plate and then activate the glyph. There's still the matter of this taking 1 hour 10 minites to do, but with teleport or some other means of moving quick, it is possible to deploy this strat in a dungeon.

A wizard couldn't, because Tenser's Transformation is self-only.

[Talsin]

Pity it uses concentration. That said, I could see it with an assassin 3/bard x as a great way to crit fish on the opening round. Maybe add paladin 2 to dump spell slots for smiting. Means not coming online till level 15...

Anyway, 2 attacks, with advantage, with a xbow:
1d10 - xbow
2d6 - Sneak Attack
2d12 - force
5d8 - smite
+5 - dex

Average 53 damage per hit. Sharpshooter -5/+10 might be worth it, since you'd be attacking with advantage. If your DM lets you surprise targets with any regularity, you get to auto-crit on hits on the first round, which pushes it to 101 avg damage, per hit, or 200 damage for the round.

Unfortunately you can't smite on a ranged attack, nor do you get sneak attack on the second strike.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm definitely feeling the bard, but why would you say Valor/Swords would be better than Whispers?

I'd go Valor/Swords over Whispers for a few reasons:
-As I recall (AFB) Whispers sneak attack like ability is limited to once per turn, so the extra attack isn't doing all that much.
-Since you're building around this spell, your ASIs will go into increasing your attack stat, and picking up combat feats, as such you'll be pretty weak when you don't have the spell up unless you have extra attack.
-I speak loudly.

[dragoeniex]

My current character has actually been built into this over the course of the campaign! Not his only schtick, since you never want to wait until epic tiers to come "online," but it's very effective:


14+ levels bard for Magical Secrets - Tenser's Transformation. Pick up Find Greater Steed - griffon or pegasus for flight, share oodles of temp hp and potential damage if you and your steed split up.

Whispers subclass for Psychic Blades. At lv 15 bard, this gives you an extra 8d6 psychic damage you can apply on-hit 1/turn.

Crossbow Expert feat for total of three attacks in Tenser's, now with option of range (while flying on steed!) or point-blank at no penalty.

1 lv Hexblade Warlock so your hand crossbow runs off your Charisma stat for hit and damage, and for Hexblade's Curse - apply as bonus action to crit on a 19 or 20 and get your proficiency as extra damage to each hit.

Either Alert or an item boosting initiative so you're likely to go first, meaning you can take a full turn to Action - Tenser's, BA - Curse without feeling like you skipped a beat.



Congratulations! Your flying bard now takes one turn to go into super mode, then is making three attacks at advantage from range with expanded crit range, an extra 2d12 force and flat 5 or 6 extra damage from Curse. Try hanging onto Psychic Blades until you see a crit to turn the extra damage into 4d12 force + 16d6 psychic.

Pick up a Ring of Spell Storing if you'd like to keep a Shield and Counterspell or such on-hand to get around the "no other casting" downside of Tenser's. DM dependent on that one, but seems fine.

[Talsin]

Half-Elf Fighter 2 / Hexblade 3 / Whisper Bard 15

Half-Elf to pump CHA, STR, & CON. For standard point-buy this should yield 15,10,16,8,8,17. Yes, there are odd numbers. We want the 15 to stay for armor prof, we won't be using it after level 2.

Start in Fighter for Armor proficiency, and Proficiency with CON Saves.
It also yields Fighting Style which we will take Two-Weapon Fighting.

Next, Hexblade
1 for the H-Curse & Hex Warrior allowing more higher crit chance, proficiency damage, and using CHA on attacks/dmg.
2 for invocations, because we're going to 3. Can't pick E-Smite because it's a level 5 cap. Pick whatever, I like Agonizing to get a great ranged weapon on demand.
3 to get Pact Weapon allowing us to use 2 weapons using Charisma as a way to strike/hurt opponents.

Bard up to 14 to magically secret away a few things.
Spells to make sure you acquire: Find Greater Steed (See PeteNutButter's comment), Tenser's Transformation, More?

We choose Whisper Bard for Psychic Blades, and at level 15 we can use it for an extra 8d6 damage once per round on our turn.

We've got 3 ASI utilize...
1: Elven Accuracy is the first: Add the bonus to CHA, we're even, and we get triple advantage on all of the attacks while under the spell.
2: +2 to CHA to bring us up to 20.
3: CON +2, or Warcaster for that sweet sweet CON save for our concentration, OR DUAL WIELDER for +1 AC and using a 1d8 weapon instead of a 1d6 weapon (average damage +1 per weapon die roll)

Mathing up?

1d8+2d12+11 on a regular hit assuming no weapon bonuses or crits. 3 attacks per round, gives us a pretty 85.5 average damage with no crits.
We use Psychic Blades on a crit (What are we, a paladin?) which across 9 rolls of d20's for our 3 attacks that crit on both 20 AND 19, we have a pretty good chance of getting at least one.
Suddenly, we add in an additional 1d8+2d12+16d6 (73.5 more damage), bringing our 3 attacks with 1 crit to a total of 159 average damage, plus the greater steed shenanigans of a VERY tense pony.

We can also drop the average damage by 4 if we didn't take dual wielder and instead took something else to keep us concentrating.


Anything else? L15 bard gets 8th level spells, so we have a lot to choose from.

[Talsin]

Snip

Ninja'd! Darn!

More seriously though, That's awesome! I am really happy to see someone who went to the effort of making a build that could utilize this spell so well! I've always liked the idea behind it, but it just hasn't been good enough to use as a full caster until the 5e Bard waltzed through the door and said "Hey my baby, don't you know our love is true?"

What kinds of spells do you use on a regular, or are you pretty normally a double-crossbow shot?

[Damon_Tor]

A wizard couldn't, because Tenser's Transformation is self-only.

There's no reason to believe that he glyph becomes the caster of the spell. The caster is still the caster, and "self" is a subset of "one creature". Crawford's statement on the subject is often misunderstood: you cannot use a Glyph of Warding to cast a "self" spell on someone else, but that doesn't mean you can't use it to cast it on yourself.

[JackPhoenix]

There's no reason to believe that he glyph becomes the caster of the spell. The caster is still the caster, and "self" is a subset of "one creature". Crawford's statement on the subject is often misunderstood: you cannot use a Glyph of Warding to cast a "self" spell on someone else, but that doesn't mean you can't use it to cast it on yourself.

Is that supposed to be example of misunderstanding that statement? Because the SA in question doesn't make any exception for the original caster being the creature that triggered the glyph.

Glyph targets the creature that triggered the glyph. Even if that creature is the glyph's orginal caster, that's not "self". Especially as you can't set the trigger to only affect the original caster.... any creature that fulfil the requirements (for argument's sake, with the same alignment and race as the caster, and using some kind of magic to disguise themselves as the caster, to get around the optional conditions) would be targetted, which wouldn't be possible if the spell was self-only.

[dragoeniex]

Ninja'd! Darn!

More seriously though, That's awesome! I am really happy to see someone who went to the effort of making a build that could utilize this spell so well! I've always liked the idea behind it, but it just hasn't been good enough to use as a full caster until the 5e Bard waltzed through the door and said "Hey my baby, don't you know our love is true?"

What kinds of spells do you use on a regular, or are you pretty normally a double-crossbow shot?

Thanks; I appreciate your build as well! Fighter is always tempting for Action Surge capability (power up and unload all at once). Personally, though, I prefer 19 Bard 1 Warlock to keep my day job as a full caster as potent as possible.

Elven Accuracy was also a tempting choice for my final (lv 20) feat pick, because who doesn't love a little overkill? But I opted War Caster instead for better luck keeping the spell up over longer durations.



What kind of spells do I use on the regular? You mean when I'm outside of Tenser's?

Honestly, I really only focus on damage when I'm in Tenser's. Unless I've thrown on Crown of Stars ahead of the fight to be shooting 4d12 force as a BA between other actions (great use of Magical Secrets). My crossbow only comes out when I've switched to TT or need to do a quick Psychic Blades to cap a weakened monster.

My usual fare involves spells like Synaptic Static, Forcecage, Blindness/Deafness, Feeblemind, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and so on. Anything I can do to help lock down enemies or disrupt their offense. I also have Healing Word, Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds, Heal, and Resurrection to serve as a pseudo-cleric.

Essentially, my bard plays like a battlefield leader. He disrupts the enemy so the rest of the team can take advantage, he negates or repairs damage and effects to the team, and then- if there's a single target that needs immediate removal- he flips into striker mode to gun it down.

It's a lot of fun! I love Tenser's, and it's a signature now, but it's not my "default" setting.

[Talsin]

Thanks; I appreciate your build as well! Fighter is always tempting for Action Surge capability (power up and unload all at once). Personally, though, I prefer 19 Bard 1 Warlock to keep my day job as a full caster as potent as possible.

Elven Accuracy was also a tempting choice for my final (lv 20) feat pick, because who doesn't love a little overkill? But I opted War Caster instead for better luck keeping the spell up over longer durations.



What kind of spells do I use on the regular? You mean when I'm outside of Tenser's?

Honestly, I really only focus on damage when I'm in Tenser's. Unless I've thrown on Crown of Stars ahead of the fight to be shooting 4d12 force as a BA between other actions (great use of Magical Secrets). My crossbow only comes out when I've switched to TT or need to do a quick Psychic Blades to cap a weakened monster.

My usual fare involves spells like Synaptic Static, Forcecage, Blindness/Deafness, Feeblemind, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and so on. Anything I can do to help lock down enemies or disrupt their offense. I also have Healing Word, Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds, Heal, and Resurrection to serve as a pseudo-cleric.

Essentially, my bard plays like a battlefield leader. He disrupts the enemy so the rest of the team can take advantage, he negates or repairs damage and effects to the team, and then- if there's a single target that needs immediate removal- he flips into striker mode to gun it down.

It's a lot of fun! I love Tenser's, and it's a signature now, but it's not my "default" setting.

That's awesome! Playing bard up to a massive disruption - stealing the show when necessary? I love it!

[Nhorianscum]

The most impressive bit of tensers damage wise is that it offers a whopping 2d12 per hit rider.

We need 5 hits per round for this to offer more additional DPR than a level 6 animate objects over a 3 round fight.

[lperkins2]

Unfortunately you can't smite on a ranged attack, nor do you get sneak attack on the second strike.

Oh that's a good point... Hm, back to the drawing board. Sinking 5 levels into warlock for the ranged smite is a bit much... I mean, it works with a melee weapon, but then you'll probably git hit and lose concentration... Then again, as an alpha-strike thing, losing concentration so you can go back to casting may not be the end of the world...

As for the sneak attack, that does only apply to one attack, so reduce the damage figures by 2d6 (4d6 on a crit) for the second attack.

[Damon_Tor]

Is that supposed to be example of misunderstanding that statement? Because the SA in question doesn't make any exception for the original caster being the creature that triggered the glyph.

Glyph targets the creature that triggered the glyph. Even if that creature is the glyph's orginal caster, that's not "self". Especially as you can't set the trigger to only affect the original caster.... any creature that fulfil the requirements (for argument's sake, with the same alignment and race as the caster, and using some kind of magic to disguise themselves as the caster, to get around the optional conditions) would be targetted, which wouldn't be possible if the spell was self-only.

Crawfords exact words are:


"A spell with a target of “Self” can be cast only on the spellcaster, unless a special rule says otherwise."

"Exceptions to general rules are explicit. For example, if a rule let you cast a “Self” spell on someone else, that rule would say so explicitly."

He never says you cannot use a Glyph of Warding to contain a spell with the range of self, only that the Glyph of Warding does not allow you to cast a spell with the range of self on someone who is not the spellcaster. If you are operating under the assumption that you are no longer the caster of the spell in question, then yes, the Glyph cannot be used with a spell with the range of self. However, as noted, there is no reason to assume you ever cease to be the caster.

So what happens if you cast Tenser's Transformation into a Glyph and then someone else triggers it? The same thing that would happen if you tried to cast Hold Person on a vampire or any other illegal target: nothing. The spell is wasted. But because Hold Person cannot be used on a Vampire, and a Vampire could trigger a Glyph of Warding, does that imply that Hold Person cannot be cast via Glyph of Warding? No, of course not.

[Trickery]

If you take two levels of paladin and two levels of fighter with Elven Accuracy and TWF on a Bladesinger wizard, you can have a 15th level wizard who can cast mirror image and this spell in the same turn along with bladesinging to setup (action surge). You can smite using wizard spell slots, which you should every time you get a crit. You can use Contingency (I just cast Tenser's) to put Blur on yourself as well (if my understanding of that spell is correct). This will give you a ton of AC, good damage, huge crits, and make you a better Fighter than the Fighter or Barbarian for one fight (possibly more if you get the full duration out of Tenser's).

It's good for getting around Legendary Resistance. Nothing in the MM has resistance to a can of whoopass.

[No brains]

Sage Advice did not explicitly rule it out when given the chance.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/929428166745120768


A spell with a target of “Self” can be cast only on the spellcaster, unless a special rule says otherwise. #DnD

If a wizard takes both Glyph of Warding and Tenser's Transformation, it's plausible that they could cast "Glyph of Warding; Tenser's Transformation" and affect themselves with it. They are the caster, it should affect them. The spell would just fail on someone else.

I guess check with your DM first, but something that takes both an 8th and 9th level slot, technically more resources than Wish, isn't a major abuse of the rules.

I would have to agree to disagree on the matter of GoW working with Self spells.

[Damon_Tor]

Sage Advice did not explicitly rule it out when given the chance.

Right: if it wasn't possible to store a spell with the range of self in a Glyph of Warding, he would have said that. He didn't (though that's how people seem to want to read it.)

[Skylivedk]

Right: if it wasn't possible to store a spell with the range of self in a Glyph of Warding, he would have said that. He didn't (though that's how people seem to want to read it.)

Nah, that's taking too many steps down the deduction ladder. Jeremy Crawford has a knack for not answering direct questions and often at the same time make the question seem stupid. It's not the first time. Most of all, it just strikes me as non-commitment.

[Talsin]

If you take two levels of paladin and two levels of fighter with Elven Accuracy and TWF on a Bladesinger wizard, you can have a 15th level wizard who can cast mirror image and this spell in the same turn along with bladesinging to setup (action surge). You can smite using wizard spell slots, which you should every time you get a crit. You can use Contingency (I just cast Tenser's) to put Blur on yourself as well (if my understanding of that spell is correct). This will give you a ton of AC, good damage, huge crits, and make you a better Fighter than the Fighter or Barbarian for one fight (possibly more if you get the full duration out of Tenser's).

It's good for getting around Legendary Resistance. Nothing in the MM has resistance to a can of whoopass.

I like the idea of jamming paladin smites in the combo, but now we're splitting our stats between INT, CHA, & DEX, presumably dropping CON lower. Do we have the stat focus for our attack bonus & maintaining concentration? Plus, you'd losing out on the Level 14 ability of the Bladesinger since you can't cast spells under Transformation.

[Nhorianscum]

Simple build.

Valor bard 17/Fighter 2/whatever 1

Secret for tensers and contingency

Turn 1 tensers + (contingency) swift quiver attack x2

Turn 2 attack x6 for 12d12 + 6d8 + 60 + 30

So 222 damage on a nova? Not awful

[JackPhoenix]

Crawfords exact words are:


"A spell with a target of “Self” can be cast only on the spellcaster, unless a special rule says otherwise."

"Exceptions to general rules are explicit. For example, if a rule let you cast a “Self” spell on someone else, that rule would say so explicitly."

He never says you cannot use a Glyph of Warding to contain a spell with the range of self

Actually, he does, as you've quoted. A spell with a target of "self" can be cast only on the spellcaster. If you're casting the spell as part of GoW's casting, you're not casting it on the spellcaster. Not that claim has any backing in the actual RAW... technically, self-only spells don't have target at all by spellcasting section, as there's no targetting decision to be made.


only that the Glyph of Warding does not allow you to cast a spell with the range of self on someone who is not the spellcaster. If you are operating under the assumption that you are no longer the caster of the spell in question, then yes, the Glyph cannot be used with a spell with the range of self. However, as noted, there is no reason to assume you ever cease to be the caster.

Sooo.... you're saying that the spell's range.... which GoW doesn't change... is calculated from the spellcaster, and not from the glyph's position? Because that would break GoW, and not in a good way. It would make it pretty much unusable unless the spellcaster sticks around. And if the range *is* calculated from the glyph, with range of "self", TT (or any other similar spell) can't ever target the triggering creature, no matter what it is.


So what happens if you cast Tenser's Transformation into a Glyph and then someone else triggers it? The same thing that would happen if you tried to cast Hold Person on a vampire or any other illegal target: nothing. The spell is wasted. But because Hold Person cannot be used on a Vampire, and a Vampire could trigger a Glyph of Warding, does that imply that Hold Person cannot be cast via Glyph of Warding? No, of course not.

There's a difference: you can cast Hold Person on a vampire just fine. The vampire will be unaffected, but the spell would be cast anyway. You can't even attempt to cast self-only spell on someone else, as per spellcasting rules, "The target of a spell must be within the spell’s range"... or, as above, there's no target in the first place.

[lperkins2]

Simple build.

Valor bard 17/Fighter 2/whatever 1

Secret for tensers and contingency

Turn 1 tensers + (contingency) swift quiver attack x2

Turn 2 attack x6 for 12d12 + 6d8 + 60 + 30

So 222 damage on a nova? Not awful

SQ is a BA spell, contingency requires a spell with a cast time of an Action. Could do contingent haste, but thats half as good.

[Nhorianscum]

SQ is a BA spell, contingency requires a spell with a cast time of an Action. Could do contingent haste, but thats half as good.

Eh. Wibbly wobbly timey wimey. It'll fly at most tables.

Guess we could contingency polymorph for giggles.

[JackPhoenix]

Eh. Wibbly wobbly timey wimey. It'll fly at most tables.

Guess we could contingency polymorph for giggles.

Contingency doesn't remove the need to concentrate on the spell. You can't combine TT with another concentration spell.

[Damon_Tor]

Sooo.... you're saying that the spell's range.... which GoW doesn't change... is calculated from the spellcaster, and not from the glyph's position? Because that would break GoW, and not in a good way. It would make it pretty much unusable unless the spellcaster sticks around. And if the range *is* calculated from the glyph, with range of "self", TT (or any other similar spell) can't ever target the triggering creature, no matter what it is.

I expect the range is based on the caster, at the time the spell is cast. You cast the spell when you create the Glyph, and since the Glyph has a range of touch, in effect this means the range of the spell is going to be very similar to the range of the glyph itself.

The idea that the Glyph itself becomes the caster of the spell creates its own problems. The Glyph has no hands to outstretch and no fingers to point, so that would seem to make spells like Fireball and Burning Hands, and a multitude of others which stipulate specific gestures as a part of the spellcasting, impossible to use with a Glyph if the Glyph is supposed to be the caster.

[Nhorianscum]

Contingency doesn't remove the need to concentrate on the spell. You can't combine TT with another concentration spell.

Oh. Yeah then we need monk 3/fighter 2 to actually get to enough attacks on our own to make this worthwhile and that's just giving 1/day eeeeh nova

[Rara1212]

I was just thinking of a Valenar Elf(High elf) from Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron, with a Double Scimitar and the Revenant Blade feat.

Max Dex & Int, and put some into Con.
With pointbuy and the feat at lvl 4 your stats look like this:
8str, 18dex, 14con, 16int, 10wis, 8cha

Abjuration Wizard for defensive powers, use Mage Armor for some nice AC. 13+Dex+1(from Revenant Blade) = 18AC at lvl 4.


Any time you are in melee you use your blade, and any time your ward isn't up you can use Shield/Absorb-Elements to replenish it and hopefully dodge/reduce some damage. (Plus absorb Elements lets you do some extra damage)



And when you get Tensers Transformation you are doing 3x attacks, at 2d4+2d12+Dex damage.
If you want you can always add in Elven Accuracy. And if the enemies are at range, just swap to a Longbow and pepper them with arrows


If you ever get Robe of the Arch-Magi you'll be super happy.

[ThePolarBear]

I expect the range is based on the caster, at the time the spell is cast.

And the obvious question is: since it would be an exception, why is it not explicit?

See, Glyph of Warding necessarily has to make changes to spellcasting rules. It's not that easy to come up with exactly which ones are affected, 100% clear.

[Damon_Tor]

And the obvious question is: since it would be an exception, why is it not explicit?

See, Glyph of Warding necessarily has to make changes to spellcasting rules. It's not that easy to come up with exactly which ones are affected, 100% clear.

It's not really an exception: there are many spells which have a delayed effect, and all of them work the same way. For example, if you target a spot with Delayed Blast Fireball and then run 300 feet away and drop concentration the spell still works fine, because at the time you cast the spell you were in range. And part of that comes down to this general rule in the 5e spellcasting rules:


"Once a spell is cast, its effects aren’t limited by its range, unless the spell’s description says otherwise."

It's weird that the spell you store in the Glyph is cast twice: first when you store it and again when the glyph is triggered. But by the language used, it is the same spell, not another instance of a spell of that name.

[JackPhoenix]

I've actually asked JC if the original caster is in the control of GoW's spell (though that was in the context of giving orders to summoned creature). Never got a reply, even though GoW's spell glyph is one of the messiest rules in PHB. They should've sticked to explosive glyph option.

[ThePolarBear]

It's not really an exception: there are many spells which have a delayed effect, and all of them work the same way.

Can't extract a general from a specific. That's not how it works.


For example, if you target a spot with Delayed Blast Fireball and then run 300 feet away and drop concentration the spell still works fine, because at the time you cast the spell you were in range.

And you are casting it to have an effect, not to store it into another spell or item. The spell effect is what takes the fireball time to explode. The effects of the spell are there, and you can go out of range.

If we were to apply this reasoning to the ring of spell storing, pretty much nothing would work if you take the parameters to be the ones where the spell was originally cast, don't you think? However, the ring has explicit and simple rules on how to deal with it, and thus is simple in understanding. The same is not true for the Glyph.



"Once a spell is cast, its effects aren’t limited by its range, unless the spell’s description says otherwise."
It's weird that the spell you store in the Glyph is cast twice: first when you store it and again when the glyph is triggered. But by the language used, it is the same spell, not another instance of a spell of that name.

That's the point: you store it by casting, then it is cast again. There's no effect when you cast it by storing, so you can't really applying a rule about effects.

There's no rule on what happens when storing, but there are rules on casting and those have to apply to the second casting, too, if there isn't an exception. So, if "you" are still the one casting, then the rules for casting apply from YOU if there is no exclusion about it. If, at the time, you are on the other side of the planet, the spell is likely to have no effect since "once the spell is cast" has not happened: it is what is happening right now. Range is a problem, for once, like it is line of effect and whatnot. You can't choose the target, but that's it about the exclusions.

But: this is not a thread about Glyph of Warding, so that's the last of my thoughts here.

[Corran]

My current character has actually been built into this over the course of the campaign! Not his only schtick, since you never want to wait until epic tiers to come "online," but it's very effective:


14+ levels bard for Magical Secrets - Tenser's Transformation. Pick up Find Greater Steed - griffon or pegasus for flight, share oodles of temp hp and potential damage if you and your steed split up.

Whispers subclass for Psychic Blades. At lv 15 bard, this gives you an extra 8d6 psychic damage you can apply on-hit 1/turn.

Crossbow Expert feat for total of three attacks in Tenser's, now with option of range (while flying on steed!) or point-blank at no penalty.

1 lv Hexblade Warlock so your hand crossbow runs off your Charisma stat for hit and damage, and for Hexblade's Curse - apply as bonus action to crit on a 19 or 20 and get your proficiency as extra damage to each hit.

Either Alert or an item boosting initiative so you're likely to go first, meaning you can take a full turn to Action - Tenser's, BA - Curse without feeling like you skipped a beat.



Congratulations! Your flying bard now takes one turn to go into super mode, then is making three attacks at advantage from range with expanded crit range, an extra 2d12 force and flat 5 or 6 extra damage from Curse. Try hanging onto Psychic Blades until you see a crit to turn the extra damage into 4d12 force + 16d6 psychic.

Pick up a Ring of Spell Storing if you'd like to keep a Shield and Counterspell or such on-hand to get around the "no other casting" downside of Tenser's. DM dependent on that one, but seems fine.
I was thinking a bit about this. I like the idea as a whole, but I'll talk about the things I think we could improve.

I think that by being at range, we are missing on utilizing the temp hp (which our mount shares), meaning that it's a shame not to tank (pc and mount) with these extra hp (and we can draw enough focus with the damage we will be doing). But mainly we are missing the mount's attacks (that's a significant boost on our dpr). So, imo, we really need to be in melee to make the best of this spell.

Now, crossbow expert allows us to be in melee, but before I talk about crossbow expert let me say this. The damage we will be doing without crossbow expert in melee is greater than the damage we will be doing with crossbow expert from range. That's because of the mount's attacks, which from melee we will be doing on a more regular basis. And then there is the added value of being also able to tank some hits (both us and our mount). Back to crossbow expert now. Yes, it is going to improve our character's dpr in melee, and I agree that we need a bonus action attack to make good use of this spell, and crossbow expert is a damage boost when compared to twf, due to how hex warrior works on one weapon (and we don't really want to go all the way up to warlock 3 for pact of the blade). Without doing the math, let us assume that crossbow expert is like 4-5 dpr boost (probably less if also running elven accuracy) over twf when we are using TT. Does that benefit really merit spending a feat on it, considering that crossbow expert is not really a great feat when we wont be using TT (no extra attack, and do we really need to be able to do unbuffed EB's when someone engages us without running TT?)? I'd say that pumping charisma up to 20 and warcaster will be far more important, both when running TT and when we are not. Maybe we could grab it as a late feat but eh, I think I would go with something like alert (like you said; though given the duration of TT, I would probably use it when I would just be able to buff before combat, and not during combat) or something else (I am pretty sure I would want sth else more than a minor dpr boost that only applies when using that one particular spell).

So yeah, these are the only stuff I would change from the original idea. I would drop crossbow expert for warcaster, and I would aim to go into melee when using TT (using two shortswords for a -slightly worse than CE- bonus action attack). Otherwise, everything else seems very fine tuned to me.

[Fable Wright]

Step 1: Put TT in Glyph of Warding.
Step 2: Simulacrum of Elven Accuracy Samurai.
Step 3: Vaporize small corner of reality.

[Damon_Tor]

Step 1: Put TT in Glyph of Warding.
Step 2: Simulacrum of Elven Accuracy Samurai.
Step 3: Vaporize small corner of reality.

Regardless of whether or not you can put TT into a Glyph or not (debated elsewhere in the thread) the developers confirmed a Glyph cannot be used to cast a "self" spell on someone else. So no, this won't function the way you want it to.

[Fable Wright]

Regardless of whether or not you can put TT into a Glyph or not (debated elsewhere in the thread) the developers confirmed a Glyph cannot be used to cast a "self" spell on someone else. So no, this won't function the way you want it to.

In which case, allow me to start another rules debate.

Step 1: Cast Magic Jar
Step 2: Create Simulacrum of Elven Accuracy Samurai
Step 3: Possess Samurai and cast TT
Step 3a (optional) while on a Find Greater Steed
Step 4: Swap your soul back into jar

Does the TT effect continue on your Simulacrum body? If it does, this would probably be the best use of it.

[Damon_Tor]

In which case, allow me to start another rules debate.

Step 1: Cast Magic Jar
Step 2: Create Simulacrum of Elven Accuracy Samurai
Step 3: Possess Samurai and cast TT
Step 3a (optional) while on a Find Greater Steed
Step 4: Swap your soul back into jar

Does the TT effect continue on your Simulacrum body? If it does, this would probably be the best use of it.

A simulacrum is a construct as per errata. Magic Jar effects humanoids.

But I like this line of thinking. Let's drop the simulacrum: use the Magic Jar to take possession of one of your teammates (a samurai, for example), cast Tenser's Transformation, then get your soul back to the jar, and back to your body. Does it work? I dunno, maybe!

EDIT: I'm looking over the spells in question, and I don't see why it wouldn't work. There's nothing about Magic Jar that would break your concentration, and once a spell is cast the range of "self" is no longer relevant as per the spellcasting rules. You don't even need to use actions to return to the jar then your own body, just build your component out of breakable crystal and drop it when you're done casting Tensers, automatically returning you to your proper body and your buddy to his without missing a lick.

The real question is how to handle things like initiative and turn order? Is the turn you took from inside your pal's body casting Tenser's and dropping the crystal your turn or his turn?

[MagneticKitty]

@Corran

One key thing: you don't have to ride your steed after casting. In fact having your tanky steed run interference while you back up and use a bow is pretty good.

[Fable Wright]

The real question is how to handle things like initiative and turn order? Is the turn you took from inside your pal's body casting Tenser's and dropping the crystal your turn or his turn?

As far as I can tell, your buddy still has his own initiative. While in the magic jar, he could take no actions, but once he gets his body back, he does. So if he's lower than you in initiative, you both act; if he's higher, he will get to act before you next round.

[Meichrob7]

This doesn’t directly help you if you’re just looking for strict RAW ways to get more juice out of the spell, but I’m currently running a game using a level 20-30 supplement from the dmg so the players are doing a lot of crazier things. The Forge cleric specifically is making it his goal to have crafted an artifact by level 20, the guy likes going melee a lot too so my plan is to give him some plate armor that can cast/concentrate on Tensers Transformation and will let the weirder cast Antimagic field. Since artifacts are still magical in antimagic fields he’ll be able to make dead zones and run up and go melee on some enemy mages.

[ThePolarBear]

I'm looking over the spells in question, and I don't see why it wouldn't work.

For the exact same reason why Eldritch Blast can't affect a chair or you can't have another creature targeted by a Glyph of Warding with a self spell, or for the exact same reason why dominate beasts works against a druid that has polymorphed, but stops working when they morph back.

The target for the spell has become invalid.

"Self" is both a range and a target. Or, "these spells affect only you". If the Samurai is no longer "you", it stops affecting them.

[Corran]

@Corran

One key thing: you don't have to ride your steed after casting. In fact having your tanky steed run interference while you back up and use a bow is pretty good.
Ah... good point. In fact if I am not mistaken, a mount has to be uncontrolled in order to attack, right?
I still don't think I could find enough room for crossbow expert in such a build by level 15. Maybe with variant human? Or with above average starting charisma perhaps. Though it's a bigger dpr boost than I first thought (cause twf does not add mods on the off hand attack).

[Damon_Tor]

The target for the spell has become invalid.

There is nothing in the rules that states or implies that spells stop effecting a creature if they would no longer be a viable target for casting the spell. And in fact, several spells would stop functioning entirely if this were the case: for example, magic weapon cannot target magic weapons yet turns the target into a magic weapon. Many spells require the target be a creature you can see: if you polymorph an enemy into a rat, then the rat scurries behind a pillar, does it lose the effect of polymorph because you can no longer see it?

[ThePolarBear]

There is nothing in the rules that states or implies that spells stop effecting a creature if they would no longer be a viable target for casting the spell.

Who cares about casting in this case, however?
The quote is about "affecting". "You" were a valid target. But "Self" spells "affect only you". The samurai is no longer "you", so the spell stops affecting them, even if at the time it was a valid target.


And in fact, several spells would stop functioning entirely if this were the case: for example, magic weapon cannot target magic weapons yet turns the target into a magic weapon.

Again, it's not a problem for targeting rules as far as spellcasting goes. The spell requires that you touch a non-magic weapon. That is the condition, not that the spell isn't affecting a magic weapon. In fact, nothing prevents you casting magic weapon and then another spell that can be cast on a magic weapon, even making the weapon magical itself.

The problem with "Dominate Beast" is that the spell works "while the beast is charmed". If it is no longer a beast, the condition fails. Magic Weapon has no such condition.


Many spells require the target be a creature you can see: if you polymorph an enemy into a rat, then the rat scurries behind a pillar, does it lose the effect of polymorph because you can no longer see it?

No, because that's a targeting issue, it isn't influenced by the state the target is in. Again, polymorph doesn't work "as long as the creature is in sight". Other spells, and expecially those that deal with fear, do.

Once targeted, the effects of a spell are no longer affected by range and other targeting restriction. However, spells that work "while" REQUIRE the "while" to be true to be able to have an effect.

Self spell "affect only you". If it isn't "you", they do not have an effect. And this is true because a spell affects you for the entire duration, and the condition thus has to be true for the whole duration.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

Note that the spell itself doesn't end; if the druid wildshape himself again, he'll be charmed and commandable once more. Same with TT: if you possess anyone again (the samurai or someone else), or even return to your own body, you'll keep TT's benefits. In fact, the later may be needlessly complex way to take advantage of TT granting armor proficiency: posses someone, put your unconscious body in whatever armor you want, cast TT while still in the possessed body (*you* aren't wearing armor you aren't proficient with, even if your body is, so you can cast spells just fine), jump back into your original body.

[GlenSmash!]

Artificer 3+ going Battlesmith to use Intelligence as your attack stat then Wizard 11+ for Tenser's transformation. I can see Illusionist, Bladesinger, and War Mage all working well.You could go Battlesmith to 6 first to get 2d4 more force damage once per turn 5 times per long rest, assuming max Int.

In fact I'd go Battlesmith to 6 then switch to War Magic Wizard, max Int, then taking GWM to really take advantage of advantage and Elven Accuracy to help really counteract the -5. I'd want the +10 from GWM and the 2d12 force damage to moth land as often as possible you.

Similar idea for ranged. Battlesmith 3 then Bladesinger maxing Int, getting Sharpshooter, Elven accuracy, and crossbow expert. Use a hand crossbow while bladesinging.

Both easily playable from 1-20 though the bladesinger route is better as it gets 9th spells at 20. I'm just partial to melee combat and GWM.

[ThePolarBear]

Note that the spell itself doesn't end; if the druid wildshape himself again, he'll be charmed and commandable once more.

Yes, for Dominate Beasts. Other spells might end if the condition is no longer true - iirc the new wording of Contagion requires being poisoned and if that is cured the spell just ends.


Same with TT

Yes and no.

I mean, it's a possible reading and i would 100% let the spell start having effect again were the "you" re-enter the samurai - and possibly other bodies too.
But i feel that a "true" answer requires a bit of delving in how "magic" works in each single world, so it is left more as an "each group its own" for each other case. Just like it would be necessary to make a distinction for things like "you are still poisoned": it is still "you", but it is more of a physical thing and thus only the body should be the thing that is affected, at least imho.

I mean, with spells like Clone and Reincarnate, Majic Jar and so on the concept of "you" and what makes you "you" can get REALLY blurry, and at that point we go into metaphysical discussions...

[dragoeniex]

I was thinking a bit about this. I like the idea as a whole, but I'll talk about the things I think we could improve.

I think that by being at range, we are missing on utilizing the temp hp (which our mount shares), meaning that it's a shame not to tank (pc and mount) with these extra hp (and we can draw enough focus with the damage we will be doing). But mainly we are missing the mount's attacks (that's a significant boost on our dpr). So, imo, we really need to be in melee to make the best of this spell.

Now, crossbow expert allows us to be in melee, but before I talk about crossbow expert let me say this. The damage we will be doing without crossbow expert in melee is greater than the damage we will be doing with crossbow expert from range. That's because of the mount's attacks, which from melee we will be doing on a more regular basis. And then there is the added value of being also able to tank some hits (both us and our mount). Back to crossbow expert now. Yes, it is going to improve our character's dpr in melee, and I agree that we need a bonus action attack to make good use of this spell, and crossbow expert is a damage boost when compared to twf, due to how hex warrior works on one weapon (and we don't really want to go all the way up to warlock 3 for pact of the blade). Without doing the math, let us assume that crossbow expert is like 4-5 dpr boost (probably less if also running elven accuracy) over twf when we are using TT. Does that benefit really merit spending a feat on it, considering that crossbow expert is not really a great feat when we wont be using TT (no extra attack, and do we really need to be able to do unbuffed EB's when someone engages us without running TT?)? I'd say that pumping charisma up to 20 and warcaster will be far more important, both when running TT and when we are not. Maybe we could grab it as a late feat but eh, I think I would go with something like alert (like you said; though given the duration of TT, I would probably use it when I would just be able to buff before combat, and not during combat) or something else (I am pretty sure I would want sth else more than a minor dpr boost that only applies when using that one particular spell).

So yeah, these are the only stuff I would change from the original idea. I would drop crossbow expert for warcaster, and I would aim to go into melee when using TT (using two shortswords for a -slightly worse than CE- bonus action attack). Otherwise, everything else seems very fine tuned to me.

Late reply, apologies.

You could definitely run it that way, if your preference is melee! Wanting to use the temp hp to tank is the only bit of logic that seems faulty to me. As a high level caster with +7 and advantage on con saves, I would still advise against running in with the mindset that you can totally maintain your spell no matter how open you've left yourself. It's a great recipe for watching your prep, spell resources, and exhaustion-free skill checks go up in a puff of blood.

I prefer the sniper tactics mentioned previously for maneuverability and going between targets and cover as needed. And that temp hp is absolutely helping me when enemies realize I'm a problem and counter maneuver to shoot me full of upcast Disintegrate spells and the like. Once a blow like that lands, you're not keeping concentration. But your temp hp has eaten the brunt of it for you.

Melee isn't a wrong answer, per se; it's just that temp hp is a valuable buffer regardless of whether you're range or not. Purposely trying to tank a series of hits with it means you may get more mileage out of the hp, but you're far more likely to waste the advantage rolls and bonus damage potential when it all breaks early.

By the time Tenser's is online, enemies are hitting hard.