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....
2007-10-11, 06:43 PM
That has a tavern of infinite one-night-stands.

Even if I have them at my mom's house.

That is all.

Ladorak
2007-10-11, 06:58 PM
Yeah, it's almost enough to make me regret being CG... although i suppose they'll get a similar thing

Charles Phipps
2007-10-11, 07:03 PM
I have the opinion that CG Heaven is a place where you're a Rock Star and expected to misbehave in all the manner they are.

:-)

Lord_Butters_I
2007-10-11, 07:17 PM
I'm independent. I can visit any afterlife I want, I just can't make a home there.

RelentlessImp
2007-10-11, 07:22 PM
CG Afterlife:
:belkar: "...sippin' single-malt scotch and smoking cigars rolled out of poorly-worded legal documents..."
(Talking about Shojo)

You think an afterlife like that WOULDN'T have a tavern of infinite one-night stands? Hell, it probably has infinite one-hour stands, with the gender of your choice on a revolving rack that swaps them out when the hour's up.

Oh, the CG afterlife... too bad I'm CE.

Haruki-kun
2007-10-11, 07:49 PM
I'm CG too.............. I assume that's the one where the one-night stands don't make you feel guilty.

†Seer†
2007-10-11, 07:55 PM
Ahh, it's time like these I enjoy my CG ^^. I'd be the guy next to Shojo that couldn't make up his mind on what to do, and consequently go crazy...

I calls 'em, likes I sees 'em.

Querzis
2007-10-11, 07:58 PM
Yeah, it's almost enough to make me regret being CG... although i suppose they'll get a similar thing

Well it seems that you actually have to talk to the girls, flirt with them and bring them back home before the sex in the LG afterlife so I'm pretty sure the chaotic good equivalent would be just sex like a brothel.

Seriously, if you are chaotic you dont need talk before or after having sex...

bluish_wolf
2007-10-11, 08:02 PM
Screw one night stands. Apparently people in heaven never get older, so you could have an unaging Lolita girlfriend. That really speaks for itself.

†Seer†
2007-10-11, 08:11 PM
Screw one night stands. Apparently people in heaven never get older, so you could have an unaging Lolita girlfriend. That really speaks for itself.


Better scenario: Could have unaging girlfriends!:smallwink:

Ladorak
2007-10-11, 08:14 PM
Surely there's more to paradise then unending sex with a string of attractive strangers...

*Analyses what he just said* ... Or not

silvadel
2007-10-11, 08:20 PM
If you want true love with one person you go to elysium... Where if you and someone else both say 'I love you' at the same time -- that is it -- you are bound forever.

JKLantern
2007-10-11, 08:25 PM
What does CN get?

Dolash
2007-10-11, 08:43 PM
What does CN get?


Slaad.

It... uh, it's actually not all it's cracked up to be. My guess is, if you want to be Chaotic Neutral, you better really mean it - you better be crazy enough to be happy in a pit of neverending crazy for all time. You better be ready to lose your mind.

Better question - True neutrals? What's up with them? Do they sit around in a grey room drinking coffee?

bluish_wolf
2007-10-11, 08:48 PM
Isn't Valhalla (or whatever the D&D equivalent) the CN afterlife?

Devilish
2007-10-11, 08:50 PM
So am I the only one who liked "Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead" enough to laugh at the reference?

mikeejimbo
2007-10-11, 08:54 PM
I have the opinion that CG Heaven is a place where you're a Rock Star and expected to misbehave in all the manner they are.

:-)

I dunno, that sounds more Chaotic Neutral to me.

bluish_wolf
2007-10-11, 08:54 PM
So am I the only one who liked "Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead" enough to laugh at the reference?

This guy: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3332417&highlight=denver#post3332417 did, too, and that's really off-topic, anyway.

....
2007-10-11, 09:05 PM
I wonder what N/G heaven is like?

Thats my place :smallsmile:

DraPrime
2007-10-11, 09:34 PM
So I'm chaotic neutral. What do I get? I hope that it's the tavern of infinite "5 one night stands in one night"

yoshi927
2007-10-11, 09:35 PM
Better question - True neutrals? What's up with them? Do they sit around in a grey room drinking coffee?

Their gods can't decide. :smallbiggrin:

Green Bean
2007-10-11, 09:39 PM
Better question - True neutrals? What's up with them? Do they sit around in a grey room drinking coffee?

There are no True Neutral afterlives. They just own timeshares in the other eight. :smalltongue:

bluish_wolf
2007-10-11, 09:56 PM
The thing is, the plane that best exemplifies the alignment of True Neutral is the Prime Material Plane.

Xefas
2007-10-11, 10:03 PM
So I'm chaotic neutral. What do I get? I hope that it's the tavern of infinite "5 one night stands in one night"

Chaotic Neutral people are infinitly chased by giant frog-demons who continuously try to impregnate you, that their offspring might burst forth from your digestive tract. And since you're already dead, that doesn't kill you.

Such is Limbo, and the Slaad.

It's slightly less horrible than the Abyss, but you also don't deserve it as much...so, meh.

bluish_wolf
2007-10-11, 10:24 PM
Ah, here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Plane

So, True Neutrals would go to the Outlands.

Porthos
2007-10-11, 10:26 PM
Chaotic Neutral people are infinitly chased by giant frog-demons who continuously try to impregnate you, that their offspring might burst forth from your digestive tract. And since you're already dead, that doesn't kill you.

Such is Limbo, and the Slaad.

It's slightly less horrible than the Abyss, but you also don't deserve it as much...so, meh.

Well... not exactly. :smallsmile: Limbo is, quite literally, what you make it. If you have strong enough willpower you can from anything your mind desires around you. The trick is having a strong enough mind to overcome Limbo for any real length of time.

The real trick is to get Strength in Numbers. :smallwink:

So if you like living in a place with Chocolate Rivers flow where Oompa Loompas sing nearby, you'll get that. If you like running around with your hair on fire while you start farting the Star Spangled Banner, well, if think it hard enough, Limbo will provide. :smallwink:

Don't forget that the Githzerai also make their home in Limbo, Concentrating Real Hard to Keep Their Version of Paradise up and running.

The reason the Slaad like Limbo is because it is ever changing. Naturally they don't try to really hard to reshape Limbo. They like it just the way it is. :smallwink:

dogmac
2007-10-11, 10:42 PM
I want the debate place!!!

One night stands never really appealed to me.

Querzis
2007-10-11, 10:54 PM
Well... not exactly. :smallsmile: Limbo is, quite literally, what you make it. If you have strong enough willpower you can from anything your mind desires around you. The trick is having a strong enough mind to overcome Limbo for any real length of time.

The real trick is to get Strength in Numbers. :smallwink:

So if you like living in a place with Chocolate Rivers flow where Oompa Loompas sing nearby, you'll get that. If you like running around with your hair on fire while you start farting the Star Spangled Banner, well, if think it hard enough, Limbo will provide. :smallwink:

Don't forget that the Githzerai also make their home in Limbo, Concentrating Real Hard to Keep Their Version of Paradise up and running.

The reason the Slaad like Limbo is because it is ever changing. Naturally they don't try to really hard to reshape Limbo. They like it just the way it is. :smallwink:

So if your will and your mind is strong enough, you can have a better time in Limbo then in any paradise? Thats great. Take that LN and your machine world Mechanus! By the way thanks for the link Bluish wolf, except Hell, the Abyss, Mechanus and Celestia, I know nothing about the others planes. I think I need to buy Planescape eventually.

Porthos
2007-10-11, 11:31 PM
So if your will and your mind is strong enough, you can have a better time in Limbo then in any paradise? Thats great. Take that LN and your machine world Mechanus!

Well, there are a few minor problems with Limbo. :smalltongue:

1) There's the whole "concentration" thing. Even if you concentrate on something, your reality will probably only extend for a few meters beyond you. Which is why it's a good thing to have lots of like minded people with you.

2) If someone (or a group of someones) comes by with a stronger mind, you're screwed.

3) While they're not in every single corner of the plane, the Slaad still like to run around. And let me tell you, they like to bring the party with them. If you know what I mean. :smallwink:

But there's also a more insidious problem with Limbo. The sterotypical Chaotic Neutral person isn't exactly known for his long attention span. So that means that his or her version of paradise might constantly fluxuate, or wink out all together as they see a passing butterfly.

Even more insidiously, let's say you have a group of CN souls who are like minded and try to slice off a section of Limbo and make it semi-stable. Well, have you ever heard of the expression of hearding cats? :smalltongue: Just try to imagine 100s of Chaotic Neutral souls thinking along the same lines for any length of time. Sooner or later everything will break down into, well, Chaos.

You'd have better luck trying to get a thousand cats to agree on something (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandman:_Dream_Country#A_Dream_of_a_Thousand_C ats). :smallamused:

Paradoxically, however, if someone was really Chaotic Neutral, they'd probably dig a place where things were constantly changing. :smallwink:

PS: One thing to consider when talking about Limbo. In 1e and 2e, people who had a Chaotic Neutral personality were considered, by definition, to be practically insane. Thus their afterlife was supposed to suit their personality. Thankfully one of the many great changes in 3e was to get rid of the silly CN = insane description.

So Limbo doesn't quite work any more as the destination for the Ultimate Free Spirit (which is what CN has been redefinfed to). But that's WotC's problem, not mine. :smalltongue:

Meditating Mike
2007-10-12, 12:18 AM
Ugh...
Infinite one night stands, debate halls where I am always right, fighting just strong enough monsters and eating Heavenly steaks/food is not my idea of Heaven.

Secondly, guilt and shame about sex is so not lawful IMO.
Lawful good people ought to have a natural and free view of sexuality IMO, IE they enjoy it without guilt or shame.

The OotS Heaven is the age old idea that the afterlife is just a place where you have a body much like in the Prime Material world(though it is a perfect body) and that you have all your needs, wants and desires fulfilled like infinite food, water, alcohol, sex, fighting etc but you never suffer any bad consequences.

It is an idea which echoes in for example Valhall/Valhalla.

An eternity of partying and always having my wants fulfilled is just not my thing.
An eternity of meditating seems to be much more fun. ;)
Really, being always right in a debate would be soooooooo boring.
I don't know how it is in the Heavens but even sex can become unsatisfying and hollow after a few decades in a Prime Material body.

Triggerhappy938
2007-10-12, 12:32 AM
Ugh...
Infinite one night stands, debate halls where I am always right, fighting just strong enough monsters and eating Heavenly steaks/food is not my idea of Heaven.

Secondly, guilt and shame about sex is so not lawful IMO.
Lawful good people ought to have a natural and free view of sexuality IMO, IE they enjoy it without guilt or shame.

The OotS Heaven is the age old idea that the afterlife is just a place where you have a body much like in the Prime Material world(though it is a perfect body) and that you have all your needs, wants and desires fulfilled like infinite food, water, alcohol, sex, fighting etc but you never suffer any bad consequences.

It is an idea which echoes in for example Valhall/Valhalla.

An eternity of partying and always having my wants fulfilled is just not my thing.
An eternity of meditating seems to be much more fun. ;)
Really, being always right in a debate would be soooooooo boring.
I don't know how it is in the Heavens but even sex can become unsatisfying and hollow after a few decades in a Prime Material body.


I think I'd be perfectly fine in Valhalla.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-10-12, 12:37 AM
I think the generic presentation of heaven in OotS may be appealing to some, but to me, it seems kinda boring. I mean, you can only repeat the set activities so many time (yes, even the one-night-stand) before getting bored. If it was a subjective heaven, where whatever you appreciated was there, I'd go.
I'd like the prospect of warm blankets, a soft bed, and 15 hours of sleep every day.

vbushido
2007-10-12, 01:40 AM
I think the generic presentation of heaven in OotS may be appealing to some, but to me, it seems kinda boring. I mean, you can only repeat the set activities so many time (yes, even the one-night-stand) before getting bored. If it was a subjective heaven, where whatever you appreciated was there, I'd go.
I'd like the prospect of warm blankets, a soft bed, and 15 hours of sleep every day.

"Now, I've taken the liberty of preparing a map with a few of the attractions that I felt may appeal to you." (emphasis mine) Yeah, I'd say heaven is what each individual makes it. The archon was merely pointing out what Roy might like. If you prefer the River of Endless Clam Chowder, I'm sure they have that, too.
-----
HONOR Do what you say. Say what you mean. Mean what you do.

Kdansky
2007-10-12, 01:48 AM
These are the times when I really wish I was a character in a fantasy game setting and not in reality. Death will be a pretty short and uninteresting event for us, since there is nothing afterwards. Also, having a chance to get ressurected sounds not so bad. I'd even start believing in (well, if you know they exist it's not belief anymore anyway, right?) or worshipping gods then.



(Don't tell me you still believe in christian/muslim or any other versions of heaven and whatnot (77 eternal virgins? yeah, right, as if that would make sense). It's a nice fantasy, but that's it.)

atteSmythe
2007-10-12, 01:48 AM
If you prefer the River of Endless Clam Chowder, I'm sure they have that, too.
New England, or Manhattan?

Tempest Fennac
2007-10-12, 01:49 AM
Regarding Meditating Mike's comment, I guess the views which lawful people hold about sex would depend on whether they go with natural laws or societal human rules regarding the subject. I know what you mean about the debate hall getting really boring really quickly (I suppose there wouldn't be any flame wars, though).

Edea
2007-10-12, 01:55 AM
I would rather my consciousness be completely dissolved and/or placed in a state of absolute peace and unawareness.

Tempest Fennac
2007-10-12, 01:57 AM
SoD spoiler:

I take it that you'd want the snarl to be released, right?

Eita
2007-10-12, 02:15 AM
SoD spoiler:

I take it that you'd want the snarl to be released, right?

How exactly is that a Start of Darkness spoiler...?

Tempest Fennac
2007-10-12, 02:34 AM
The snaly destroys the souls of anyone it kills, which would result in Edea's prefered afterlife. I don't think that's been mentioned in the online comics at all, so I classed it as a spoiler.

Sylian
2007-10-12, 04:02 AM
Roy is probably not on the highest level of Celestia, there are more than one level, after all. Meditation and inner peace will probably come later. :smallwink:

Senex
2007-10-12, 04:22 AM
Better question - True neutrals? What's up with them?
Remember Julia Greenhilt? The pompous, popular, self-absorbed girl from Cliffport who swings both ways?

Now try to imagine what her idea of Heaven would be.

DeadmanXI
2007-10-12, 04:42 AM
(Don't tell me you still believe in christian/muslim or any other versions of heaven and whatnot (77 eternal virgins? yeah, right, as if that would make sense). It's a nice fantasy, but that's it.)

Speaking as someone who legitimately believes in a heaven not unlike that described in the comic...well, I hope you're pleasantly suprised. :smallsmile:

And calling other people's religious beliefs a "fantasy" is a bit impolite and demeaning, IMO (and not really true either, they may be wrong, at least in your opinion, but they're far more substantial than a mere 'fantasy').

Tempest Fennac
2007-10-12, 04:50 AM
Julia's ideal afterlife would probably be similar to her current life at school without classes (or half-elf Conjurers asking her out when she has no interest in them).

Setra
2007-10-12, 04:55 AM
What do we, the Lawful Neutral get?

Iranon
2007-10-12, 05:35 AM
Now, the attractions given might just reflect Roy's personal taste... but if the underlying theme applies for all the facilities (gratification in an environment free of risks, frustration and suffering), I'd want to get the hell out of there.

I'd prefer the barflies* to be captivating and exciting rather than catering to my whims, I'd like the celestial debaters to vaporise my arguments with style and precision (and thus helping me hone my own techniques) and so on.
Also... if heaven is unending plesure for every soul who goes there, I can't make people's life miserable when they rub me the wrong way. Which sucks.

Screw the 77 submissive virgins... (erm... bad wording), give me something that challenges more than my stamina.



* Incidentally, what's their status? Rewarded, punished, employed, constructed right for the task? Uncomfortable questions there.

Tempest Fennac
2007-10-12, 06:11 AM
As a Lawful Neutral person, you would be spending eternity as either a giant ant or construct in The Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus where everything would be planned for you in minute detail and nothing unexpected would happen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanus (personally, I'd say that it makes being a Slaad look like an attractive option).

Prince_Rohan
2007-10-12, 06:21 AM
I would rather my consciousness be completely dissolved and/or placed in a state of absolute peace and unawareness.

That's nice.

As for me I'd like to reserve a table at the Tavern of Infinite One Night Stands for 5pm...7pm...9pm...and 11pm.

But you must understand, it's been a long life and I want to take it easy my first night.

Squark
2007-10-12, 06:27 AM
I'm NG with Lawful Good tendencies... Hmm... a mob of dogs, a gaming group that can meet regularly and some other stuff I'd need to think of.

falterfire
2007-10-12, 06:39 AM
I'm NG with Lawful Good tendencies... Hmm... a mob of dogs, a gaming group that can meet regularly and some other stuff I'd need to think of.

Gaming group? Why do you want to play DnD when you can live it, because everything you want is there?

Meditating Mike
2007-10-12, 06:45 AM
My ideal of what would be greater than Heaven would be for no afterlife to exist.
That I exist only in my body and when it ceases to function I am no more.
That after I die there are no experiences, no afterlife, no feelings, no emotions, absolute nothingness and oblivion.
It is absolutely nothing to fear because when I am dead I cannot feel anything, including fear, sadness, joy or any other emotion.

I think that the Heavens in the comic have much more to offer.
They might have great golf courses, ping pong tables, every book every written, interesting people to talk with, Celestial tea gardens and Celestial tea.
Non-toxic Celestial alcohol which tastes and makes you feel great but without any hangover.

Game tables where people can play board game, ride-the-celestial-creature areas, petting zoo's.
Martial arts centers/dojo.
Music halls.

Whatever interest you may have it would be likely to exist in the Heavens.

Sgilti
2007-10-12, 06:48 AM
Gaming group? Why do you want to play DnD when you can live it, because everything you want is there?

Different activities have different benefits. Just look at the "Things I'm not allowed to do while gaming" thread. The stuff done there is hilarious in a DnD group setting but probably wouldn't be as appealing for most people if it were to actually happen.

pendell
2007-10-12, 07:18 AM
(Don't tell me you still believe in christian/muslim or any other versions of heaven and whatnot (77 eternal virgins? yeah, right, as if that would make sense). It's a nice fantasy, but that's it.)

Actually yes, yes I do.

But not quite the way you mean, I think.

I don't believe Heaven is streets of gold (unless it's also Hell for the road crew), or never-ending food, or never-ending sex, or what not.

These are metaphors, similes. We use them as if we were blind men trying to describe color. Heaven is beyond our experience, so we naturally try to describe it using earthly metaphors. But that's all they are -- metaphors. Imperfect. . Approaches to the truth. Blind men describing an elephant and so on.

I can only say that Heaven is to earth what life in the US is to life in Africa. Compared to Heaven, even Donald Trump's lifestyle is as paltry and unfulfilling as life in an African mud hut.

And doubly so, for Donald Trump's lifestyle is grossly materialistic.

To me, Heaven is to be in the presence of, and in union with, Love forever. God is Love. To join with and become part of that Love, as a drop of water joins with a great river. To be consumed by and to overflow with Love. Love for others, love for self, love for God. A unity and joining that transcends mere physical intercourse as the light of the sun transcends the light of manmade candles.

Did you know 'ecstasy' was originally a religious word? It describes the feeling, the experience of being in God's presence. And yet whatever we experience on earth is merely the faintest whisper, the merest breath, the smallest touch, of that overwhelming passion and ecstasy, that final joining, that final consummation, that will last forever and ever.

Will there be food? Drink? sports? Hard to say. But it doesn't really matter. Whether we are permitted such things are not, they aren't the main thing.

The main things is that all our needs ... for food, for sex, for intimacy, for recreation ... dissolve into the one Need. The one source. To be in Heaven is to be joined to the One who is the one and only Answer to that Need. And so to be in Heaven is to be perfectly full even if you never eat a bite, to need no water even if you never drink a drop, to be in the complete ecstasy of orgasm even if you have never had sex. Because the One who is the Source completely and totally fulfills you forever. You are joined to Him, and to all those others who are joined to Him forever.

The only ones who are outside of that are those who have rejected love forever, and chose their own way. And they shall have it. Outside of love, away from the Source, forever.

To be hungry forever, and never eat.
To be thirsty forever, and never drink.
To be always cold with never a spark of fire to warm. And yet at the same time to be consumed with heat, without a drop of water to cool one's tongue. To be in darkness,
without a particle of light.

Never, forever. Because one has cut oneself off from the only Source, the only possible provision, that really mattered.

What is more, in the midst of this poverty and want, to know that you could have had all these things, and to *see* those who have availed themselves of such things, and to know that all your needs and desires will be forever unmet. That others will have what you will never have, by your own choice. And that those who have what you do not will be forever out of your reach.

And therefore there is nothing to do but wail and curse and take what solace one can in tormenting those in outer darkness with you. To bewail the light you cannot have, the warmth you cannot feel, the affection you remember but will never experience again. There is only hatred, and murder, and war.

Forever.

=====
Don't agree? As I said, it is only a metaphor. There may be others that are better.

But from my point of view Heaven is neither the never ending cycle of one night stands nor the annihilation of nirvana. It is rather a joining with one's beloved which lasts forever.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Milandros
2007-10-12, 07:21 AM
Celestia is an infinite plane, and Roy has merely been shown what he might enjoy for a while.

I'm sure there's also the Garden of Meditation, the Library of Interesting Facts You Didn't Know, the Theatre of Cunning Plot Twists, the Dance Hall of Booming Beats, the Crafthall Of Really Good Tools and Clamps That Never Slip, the Cinema of Non-Stop Classics, the Cinema of Unending Premieres, the Library of Fully Complete Book Series Without Waiting Ten Years For The Last One To Come Out and whatever else might strike your fancy.

All properly organised for everyone to have a good time. None of the CG "Well, it's up to you, go make your own entertainment" nonsense. :smalltongue:

As for CN, sorry, your paradise was pretty much here on the Prime Material plane. Good rewards its followers, Evil in general torments them, Neutral doesn't really care. So Limbo is not infinite party place (CG), it's infinite change and chaos. Enjoy!

Milandros
2007-10-12, 07:23 AM
May I politely request we cut the real-life religion debate right now? I enjoy it as much as anyone, but this isn't the place for it, and nothing is more likely to derail, decivilise and lock the thread faster. :smallsmile:

SoD
2007-10-12, 07:39 AM
I agree. From the first comment, I could see debate opening up, and, personally, I am currently resisting very hard not to state my own opinion.

But I digress.

I'd be pretty happy going into the heaven Roy's in. Although, I think I'd rather not live with my Mother, rather, have my own place. And a nice place in the CG afterlife...and the NG...and any others that may take my fancy.

Prince_Rohan
2007-10-12, 12:01 PM
(Don't tell me you still believe in christian/muslim or any other versions of heaven and whatnot (77 eternal virgins? yeah, right, as if that would make sense). It's a nice fantasy, but that's it.)

I once made a joke (hilarious, by the way) about two fictional people named Bill and Hillary and I got a severe warning - immediately. But this guy can offend the worlds two largest religions unchecked?

Nice.

.

Solo
2007-10-12, 12:50 PM
Ugh...
Infinite one night stands, debate halls where I am always right, fighting just strong enough monsters and eating Heavenly steaks/food is not my idea of Heaven.

Secondly, guilt and shame about sex is so not lawful IMO.
Lawful good people ought to have a natural and free view of sexuality IMO, IE they enjoy it without guilt or shame.

The OotS Heaven is the age old idea that the afterlife is just a place where you have a body much like in the Prime Material world(though it is a perfect body) and that you have all your needs, wants and desires fulfilled like infinite food, water, alcohol, sex, fighting etc but you never suffer any bad consequences.

It is an idea which echoes in for example Valhall/Valhalla.

An eternity of partying and always having my wants fulfilled is just not my thing.
An eternity of meditating seems to be much more fun. ;)
Really, being always right in a debate would be soooooooo boring.
I don't know how it is in the Heavens but even sex can become unsatisfying and hollow after a few decades in a Prime Material body.

There's probably other parts of Celestia more suited for your needs, then.





(Don't tell me you still believe in christian/muslim or any other versions of heaven and whatnot (77 eternal virgins? yeah, right, as if that would make sense). It's a nice fantasy, but that's it.)

72 virgins.

If you're gonna ridicule another religion, the very least you could do is to make sure you get your facts right first.

Hyrael
2007-10-12, 12:50 PM
I can only say that Heaven is to earth what life in the US is to life in Africa. Compared to Heaven, even Donald Trump's lifestyle is as paltry and unfulfilling as life in an African mud hut.

That seems rather dismissive of and arrogant toward people in africa. What, just because you dont have alot of cool stuff means your life is empty and borring?

Maybe you mean the lack of decent living conditions, but I'm not sure that things everywhere are as bad as all that. I dont know, I'm not an expert on africa, but I doubt you are either, and something about that statement makes me uncomfortable.

The following is long, and a bit off-topic

I would also like to say that you seem to be among the most lucid and reasonable of religious people I have encountered. I think that your ideas are at least far more likely than the 77 virgin style beleifs I normally encounter.

Sorry, but the idea that humans have something special about them that means that some part of our being survives death is just a little too...convenient. It's an idea that just seems WAY to good to be true. As sentient (more or less) creatures, we are fairly unique on our planet in our abilitiy to perceive our eventual deaths. This is scary ****. So, what an amazing releif it is to find out that we dont really die after all, do we?

Most of the religious people I encounter dont commit much thought to things like the afterlife (some dont commit much thought to anything at all). If pressed, they just parrot whatever the local preist mumbles about in his sermons, which is usually along the lines of 77virginism, though with one or two hints of your concept. But, the thing that bugs me is their complete obliviousness to the real wonders of the world around them. They just bumble along in their normal, little lives, never noticing anything, the only things importaint to them being TV shows, jobs, money, colledge/school, and iPods. And every now and then, they get a weak, false little sense of there being something beyond all this when they head into a big echoey building on sundays. If they ever look at a tree, all they notice is the "pretty colors" or the fact that it needs a trim, because it doesnt match the decor of their lawn.

Their minds are packed full of crap about virgins, blood, wafers, donations, sin, crosses, arks, floods, 7-day creations, confessions, gay-hate, condoms and Pills, and all the rest that any hope of perceiving the true glory of reality is forever lost to them. They honestly think that somehow, stupid little rules like whether or not people have condomless sex with man-on-top are somehow fundamental to the nature of reality.

If you ever have a free moment, have a look at a living thing. not another human, they're too familiar. look at a weed, or an ant, or a blade of grass.

The matter that makes up that blade of grass is, in itself, nothing special. lots of water, quite a bit of carbon, and this and that of various other matter, like magnesium and nitrogen. But, this stuff has managed to link itself together to form such bewildering self-replicating complexity that I cant begin to do it justice in a forum post, and I leave doing so to better minds (Darwin, Dawkins, Jack Cohen, Carl Sagan). The fact that such a frail, easily-destroyed thing like life existis on this fragile lump of crusty molen rock spinning around a nuclear fireball is nothing short of ecstasy.

I'm not talking about you here. You dont seem to have some sort of political motive, or fear people not like yourself, hor have a bug up your ass about sex. you seem to have a fairly good handle on things, and I laud you for managing to be a reasonable, intelligent person who has the comfort of faith. I envy you.

I'm a druid, dammit, and proud of it. You damn clerics can cast protection from "evil" and Sheild of Faith all you want, but I'm neutral good, and you have a poor reflex save. One Entangle spell leaves you wide open for a Produce Flame or Iceaxe, followed up with a summoned hyena. and I'm talking about 2nd level play, here. Dont **** with someone who can cast Elemental Swarm :smallannoyed: :smalltongue:

Solo
2007-10-12, 12:54 PM
That seems rather dismissive of and arrogant toward people in africa. What, just because you dont have alot of cool stuff means your life is empty and borring?


Good living conditions, medical care, lack of rampant disease, genocide, warfare, starvation, no AIDS or Ebola, no child soldiers...

Murderous Hobo
2007-10-12, 01:11 PM
So Limbo doesn't quite work any more as the destination for the Ultimate Free Spirit (which is what CN has been redefinfed to). But that's WotC's problem, not mine. :smalltongue:

You could say that it's the only afterlife that will adapt itself allong with the whims of the person in it, in that sense it's the perfect accommodation of a free-spirit.

Charles Phipps
2007-10-12, 02:32 PM
For me, I think despite thinking I'm NG, I'd prefer to go to Bytopia. You know, keep the excitement up.

pendell
2007-10-12, 02:39 PM
That seems rather dismissive of and arrogant toward people in africa. What, just because you dont have alot of cool stuff means your life is empty and borring?

Maybe you mean the lack of decent living conditions, but I'm not sure that things everywhere are as bad as all that. I dont know, I'm not an expert on africa, but I doubt you are either, and something about that statement makes me uncomfortable.



Not necessarily.

I was reading a book called 'Emergency Sex and other desperate measures' -- a nonfiction book by a group of UN workers. One of whom went to a no-stuff African village with her boyfriend for a week or so.

She didn't particularly care for it. There was one, count 'em ONE, boom box in the entire village with ONE, count 'em, ONE cassette tape. What the village males did in the afternoon after work was they'd all go to the one guy who owned the box' house, get stoned on the local dope, and listen to that same tape.

Over and over and over again .

Every. Single. Day.

By all I've read in several books, that's pretty common in Africa. For every one person who's happy and fulfilled in pastoral life you've got a couple dozen who are bored out of their skulls and seeking any escape possible. Too often, the only possible one is khat. Which is a narcotic that first revs you up much like PCP does, then drops you down with a crash. When we were in Somalia, whole operations were planned around that very cycle to take advantage of the times when the gunmen would be stoned out of their minds.

Of course, IMO, happiness is a *skill*. One can be perfectly happy and fulfilled in an African village and one can be perfectly miserable in the US. The number of therapists and pharmacists selling prozac who find gainful employment in the US is a testament to that.

Even so, it's *much much easier* to be happy and fulfilled when you've got clean drinking water, an assured supply of ample food, a lack of armed militaries coming around and murdering everyone with machetes, books to read (if that's your fancy) etc. etc.




The following is long, and a bit off-topic


Hyrael, I would be more than happy to discuss this with you at length -- but not here! I suspect the mods are already looking askance at us over the real-life religion content of this thread. Granted it's hard to avoid when you're talking about Heaven, but still ..

... so if you really want to discuss this further, feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] . It's my public address. I'll be happy to talk with you in my downtime (because I have a software development job IRL).

For the present ... y'know, this thread has already gone two pages and no one's mentioned Miko yet.

Imagine what would happen if Roy ran into HER working shifts at the Tavern of One Night Stands?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ecalsneerg
2007-10-12, 04:16 PM
Imagine what would happen if Roy ran into HER working shifts at the Tavern of One Night Stands?

Barmaid, one-night stand, or both?

Hyrael
2007-10-12, 04:56 PM
Not necessarily.

I was reading a book called 'Emergency Sex and other desperate measures' -- a nonfiction book by a group of UN workers. One of whom went to a no-stuff African village with her boyfriend for a week or so.

She didn't particularly care for it. There was one, count 'em ONE, boom box in the entire village with ONE, count 'em, ONE cassette tape. What the village males did in the afternoon after work was they'd all go to the one guy who owned the box' house, get stoned on the local dope, and listen to that same tape.

Over and over and over again .

Every. Single. Day.

By all I've read in several books, that's pretty common in Africa. For every one person who's happy and fulfilled in pastoral life you've got a couple dozen who are bored out of their skulls and seeking any escape possible. Too often, the only possible one is khat. Which is a narcotic that first revs you up much like PCP does, then drops you down with a crash. When we were in Somalia, whole operations were planned around that very cycle to take advantage of the times when the gunmen would be stoned out of their minds.

Of course, IMO, happiness is a *skill*. One can be perfectly happy and fulfilled in an African village and one can be perfectly miserable in the US. The number of therapists and pharmacists selling prozac who find gainful employment in the US is a testament to that.

Even so, it's *much much easier* to be happy and fulfilled when you've got clean drinking water, an assured supply of ample food, a lack of armed militaries coming around and murdering everyone with machetes, books to read (if that's your fancy) etc. etc.

Alrighty then, I see your point there. Sorry, but my limited experience of africa is mostly limited to the savana ecology and the Chichlids of Lake victoria, as well as the vague knowledge that there's alot of AIDs over their and some starvation in the poorer=organized countries. Without that perspective, your statement seemed a bit...iffy, but then, I had forgotten about the whole "regime of the week" phenominon (Ive used it as a joke before, and I kind of forgot about the amputations and so on.)

You may not be an expert, but you obviously know alot more about africa than I do. I concede your point.

But, on topic, I too would find the OotS afterlife a little empty AS IS. I imagine, however, that one could specificaly ask for debates that you dont auto-win, and wenches that, while loose and receptive, require a little charming. They seem fair-minded and reasonable enough to "up the difficulty" if asked.

But, in any case, I probably wouldnt wind up in a LG afterlife anyway.

Silvermike
2007-10-12, 09:40 PM
Screw one night stands. Apparently people in heaven never get older, so you could have an unaging Lolita girlfriend. That really speaks for itself.

I'm really hoping that you haven't read the book, and don't desire an eternally 12-year-old girlfriend.

Maratanos
2007-10-12, 10:53 PM
I'm really hoping that you haven't read the book, and don't desire an eternally 12-year-old girlfriend.

Weerrrrrrlllll, he could desire to be eternally 14... :smalltongue:

Beatnik gamer
2007-10-12, 11:38 PM
Well, my heaven would be a vast, endless SF and gaming convention in a really huge, grand convention center/hotel, with a the exception being that it'd be a lot easier to find treasure type O there....

Legendary
2007-10-13, 12:23 AM
I once made a joke (hilarious, by the way) about two fictional people named Bill and Hillary and I got a severe warning - immediately. But this guy can offend the worlds two largest religions unchecked?

Nice.

.

There's this thing called a "report button." It looks like a triangle with a "|" in it. If you think something is flaming/offensive/harrasing/spam, click it. The mods can't read everything, and I doubt they try. They rely on us to do the reporting for them.

It's why half the "Rich sux for not updating!!!!!!!" and "Where's MY comic?" threads last as long as they do, because the mods can't catch everything and aren't on 24/7.

DreadSpoon
2007-10-13, 01:36 AM
Good living conditions, medical care, lack of rampant disease, genocide, warfare, starvation, no AIDS or Ebola, no child soldiers..

Right. The West is completely free of homeless people, everyone gets equally top-notch medical care, we have no disease, no racial hate crimes, we're never at war, nobody is starving, nobody ever gets HIV or Ebola, and children are free of pain and sin.

Yes, Africa in general is way worse off than most of us, but they have a lot of good points, too.

Spiky
2007-10-13, 11:30 AM
Now, the attractions given might just reflect Roy's personal taste... but if the underlying theme applies for all the facilities (gratification in an environment free of risks, frustration and suffering), I'd want to get the hell out of there.

I'd prefer the barflies* to be captivating and exciting rather than catering to my whims, I'd like the celestial debaters to vaporise my arguments with style and precision (and thus helping me hone my own techniques) and so on.
Also... if heaven is unending plesure for every soul who goes there, I can't make people's life miserable when they rub me the wrong way. Which sucks.

Screw the 77 submissive virgins... (erm... bad wording), give me something that challenges more than my stamina.



* Incidentally, what's their status? Rewarded, punished, employed, constructed right for the task? Uncomfortable questions there.

That's all well and good, but if we only had a wheelbarrow that would be something.

Legendary
2007-10-13, 12:05 PM
Right. The West is completely free of homeless people, everyone gets equally top-notch medical care, we have no disease, no racial hate crimes, we're never at war, nobody is starving, nobody ever gets HIV or Ebola, and children are free of pain and sin.

Yes, Africa in general is way worse off than most of us, but they have a lot of good points, too.

Name them.

PlasticSoldier
2007-10-13, 12:36 PM
Sure africa may have some good points but even Hitler Stalin had some good points but either way your completely missing his point and are just wasting time.

So back on topic: Do you guys think the hot elf chick is an illusion, construct, or a punished soul? I personally think its a construct.

Maratanos
2007-10-13, 02:22 PM
Sure africa may have some good points but even Hitler Stalin had some good points but either way your completely missing his point and are just wasting time.

So back on topic: Do you guys think the hot elf chick is an illusion, construct, or a punished soul? I personally think its a construct.

Well, if you assume "infinite" is a metaphor for just a hell of a lot... we could actually have a fourth option: other denizens of Celestia.

There's a hell of a lot of Lawful Good people that died at some point. Remember, "a thousand years and more passed in the world of mortals." That's time for probably at least 1000 times more people to have died than you can have sex with in one night.

A significant portion of them will surely be visiting this tavern at the same night, so...

:wink:

T.Titan
2007-10-13, 05:02 PM
There's a hell of a lot of Lawful Good people that died at some point. Remember, "a thousand years and more passed in the world of mortals." That's time for probably at least 1000 times more people to have died than you can have sex with in one night.

A significant portion of them will surely be visiting this tavern at the same night, so...

:wink:

But why would they cater to your every need?!


And the Archon says that most souls only stick around that level for around 40 years...

Forealms
2007-10-13, 06:05 PM
It may be Mechanus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) for me. I think I've always fit to "The Judge" role well, and there is nothing I would find better in heaven than having an endless supply of knowledge at my disposal. Unfortunately, I might get tired fast of the cogs and machinery.
REASON TO LIVE HERE- Pursuit of scholarly achievements.

Similarly, I might be fit for Archeron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29). Fighting is definitely a passion of mine, and I might enjoy the battles that occur (spectating, at the very least). One negative, it would be very difficult to get any sleep at all with the constant noises in the distance.
REASON TO LIVE HERE- Pursuit of gladiatorial achievements.

Finally, there is Arcadia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29). This, all in all, would not be a disappointing place to visit. A very nice place that is not difficult to live in, though occasionally could get boring if you never visit the other realms.
REASON TO LIVE HERE- Direct route to Celestia's All-You-Can-Eat Steak Buffet

Porthos
2007-10-13, 06:12 PM
So back on topic: Do you guys think the hot elf chick is an illusion, construct, or a punished soul? I personally think its a construct.

Hey, angels need lovin' too, you know. :smalltongue:

bluish_wolf
2007-10-13, 09:33 PM
I'm really hoping that you haven't read the book, and don't desire an eternally 12-year-old girlfriend.

Read it and own a copy. Anyway...

I think the best way to answer this is by posting four images that really have nothing to do with the conversation.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8769/001ui3.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6997/002og7.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/751/003ux4.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/193/004ur2.jpg

I have no clue where those came from.

basilisk 89
2007-10-13, 09:51 PM
This is one joke I don't get. What the heck is a "one-night-stand"?

Milandros
2007-10-13, 10:17 PM
This is one joke I don't get. What the heck is a "one-night-stand"?

Ah, I presume that English isn't your first language. It's an extremely common slang term meaning a single sexual encounter that usually takes place the same evening after meeting one another. Basically, the classic two people meet in a bar and go home together to have sex, before going their separate ways the next morning.

Tempest Fennac
2007-10-14, 02:39 AM
Regarding Forealms's comment, would you even need to sleep? Also, would you get a choice regarding whether or not you would get to take part in the battles in Archeron?

Meditating Mike
2007-10-14, 08:23 AM
Cool.
It is as I suspected that the higher realms of Mount Celestia have other, less mortal entertainment.
I wouldn't call wanting sex, food and things like that messed up though.
Not in real life anyway.
It is good and natural if you have a body. :smallsmile:

It is true, Led Zeppelin lied to us all.
There is no stairway to Heaven! *laughs*

It would be kinda cool to spend 20 years in each Heaven while meditating before reaching the next layer.
No need to sleep, no need to eat, no tiredness, no exhaustion, just finding new and wonderful levels of consciousness.

My advice is that if you have a body, don't harm it. Eat, drink, take care of it, enjoy the physical aspects of life responsibly. :smallsmile:

basilisk 89
2007-10-14, 05:59 PM
Ah, I presume that English isn't your first language. It's an extremely common slang term meaning a single sexual encounter that usually takes place the same evening after meeting one another. Basically, the classic two people meet in a bar and go home together to have sex, before going their separate ways the next morning.

No, English is the only language I speak. Though the fact I'm only thirteen might be why I didn't get this particular joke. Thanks for explaining.

smart thog
2007-10-14, 06:26 PM
I believe that heaven is merely understanding. You understand the eternity of time and do not fear it. You understand the infinity of space and accept it. You are eternally happy. Hell is merely constant fear of the unknown. we will not know the anwsers until we are rewarded :smallconfused:

However I still think that one night stands are a part of enlightenment :smallbiggrin:

basilisk 89, you are very brave to state your age on the web. I am 14 and was terrified of the thought of all the pervs on the web who could do crap to me. I mean, I assumed that people could tell by my writing style my age and gender, but you are brave for announcing it, even with the protection of the mods. and to any pervs who get ideas, I have been doing Tae Kown Do for many years now, so don't think I cannot kick your ass if you do crap, it won't end well.

Demented
2007-10-14, 06:39 PM
It would be kinda cool to spend 20 years in each Heaven while meditating before reaching the next layer.
No need to sleep, no need to eat, no tiredness, no exhaustion, just finding new and wonderful levels of consciousness.

Boring!
Climb that mountain! Climb!

Though I wonder... Do you have to drag your one night stand up the hill to your mother's house?

basilisk 89
2007-10-14, 07:44 PM
I believe that heaven is merely understanding. You understand the eternity of time and do not fear it. You understand the infinity of space and accept it. You are eternally happy. Hell is merely constant fear of the unknown. we will not know the anwsers until we are rewarded :smallconfused:

However I still think that one night stands are a part of enlightenment :smallbiggrin:

basilisk 89, you are very brave to state your age on the web. I am 14 and was terrified of the thought of all the pervs on the web who could do crap to me. I mean, I assumed that people could tell by my writing style my age and gender, but you are brave for announcing it, even with the protection of the mods. and to any pervs who get ideas, I have been doing Tae Kown Do for many years now, so don't think I cannot kick your ass if you do crap, it won't end well.

I don't think I'm braze so much as aware of the fact that the odds of some idiot trying to come down to my hole and sexually harass me are astronomical at best. While there are cases of things like that, there aren't enough to counter weight the times when there aren't. People worry too much in my opinion.

bluish_wolf
2007-10-14, 11:18 PM
It is true, Led Zeppelin lied to us all.
There is no stairway to Heaven! *laughs*


If I remember the song, she was just buying one. It wasn't necessarily made yet.

pendell
2007-10-15, 06:56 AM
Barmaid, one-night stand, or both?

Working girl. That's the second. Would it loosen her up any, I wonder?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

T.Titan
2007-10-15, 11:37 AM
However I still think that one night stands are a part of enlightenment :smallbiggrin:


Yup, the kind of enlightenment that comes after seeing your mother as a sexy 19yr old... you know, the one where you realize you'll never be able to touch a woman ever again... (they forget everything about heaven when they get rezzed, right?)

Solo
2007-10-15, 11:58 AM
I have been doing Tae Kown Do for many years now, so don't think I cannot kick your ass if you do crap, it won't end well.

Yes, but do you focus on fancy stuff, or practical stuff? The fancy stuff won't help you in a fight.

Meditating Mike
2007-10-15, 02:17 PM
The Heavens in the comic is a great way to convert the evil.
Belkar, did you know that you can have lots of great food, sex, good fights and stuff in Heaven?
It's true, join the good side, we have fun.

dragongirl13
2007-11-03, 12:00 PM
I'm Neutral Good... what does the Neutral Good afterlife get?

I hope there's afterlife attractions for total nerd overachievers who have never had any romantic feelings...

Tempest Fennac
2007-11-03, 01:31 PM
As a Neutral Good person, you would go to Elysium ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29 ), which is great if you're a furry ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardinal ). The problem is that true love seems to be an improtant part of this plane, which may be a problem for you. Admittedly, this would be my 2nd choice after the Beastlands.

Lolzords
2007-11-04, 11:11 AM
Yeah, it's almost enough to make me regret being CG... although i suppose they'll get a similar thing

Hell, CG will probably have sex with the girl at the tavern and leave her there.

Talyn
2007-11-04, 11:17 AM
Similarly, I might be fit for Archeron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29). Fighting is definitely a passion of mine, and I might enjoy the battles that occur (spectating, at the very least). One negative, it would be very difficult to get any sleep at all with the constant noises in the distance.
REASON TO LIVE HERE- Pursuit of gladiatorial achievements.



Downside: so is everyone else. And they don't care if you are "just spectating" or not - one of the reasons why it's a Hell. Also, there is a complete lack of meaning or hope in your battles (see: Hell). Really, I think it's kind of strange that the Lawful-leaning-towards-evil afterlife and the Chaotic-leaning-towards-good afterlife are more or less EXACTLY the same (endless war, day in and day out), and the only difference seems to be that the chaotic good plane is prettier, and that on Ysgard you fight as an individual instead of as part of a unit.

Personally, as a LN kind of guy, I'd hope to end up in Arcadia over Mechanus. I'm into structure, discipline, and loyalty, but not to the extent of total sublimation of the individual. Of course, I think you can go to Mechanus and NOT become a construct or a formian. There are other LN outsiders towards which you can aspire.

spectralphoenix
2007-11-04, 12:29 PM
I'm Neutral Good... what does the Neutral Good afterlife get?

I hope there's afterlife attractions for total nerd overachievers who have never had any romantic feelings...

The Classroom of Tests You Know the Answers To?

It's one of those studios with separate tables, leg room, and computers to surf on when the professor isn't looking (or even when he is, this is heaven, after all!)

Moriato
2007-11-04, 02:52 PM
I think some people are forgetting that they've only shown the first level of the mountain, and that getting bored is the entire *point*. You work out all your carnal desires there and then move up to the next level for new, more spiritual things.