Fox's Cunning on mindless undead

[mouser13]

Well have really two questions first one what happens when you do fox's cunning on your mindless undead you created or someone else created.



Second what about on animals with 2 int do they learn to speak?

[Heliomance]

Mindless undead: nothing happens. NaN + 2 = NaN.

Animals: I suspect that they would become able to learn to talk, but it wouldn't grant them knowledge of any languages.

[ZamielVanWeber]

1) Nothing. - + 2 = NAN. You cannot add 2 to a non-value and get a value.
2) Unclear. Animals are not permitted to have int over 2 so it would either increase their int to 2 (but no higher) or break the game utterly as you would randomly strip away the animal type. They would still not talk in that scenario as they have no language but if you had the ability to speak with that animal specifically (like from Knight of the Raven) it would be like conversing with a somewhat unintelligent person.

edit: ninaj'd on the first.

[NNescio]

Well have really two questions first one what happens when you do fox's cunning on your mindless undead you created or someone else created.

Mindless creatures do not have an INT score (INT Ø or INT -, not INT 0). You cannot raise the value of a nonexistent score (i.e. NaN + x is still NaN). Ergo Fox's Cunning has no effect on mindless creatures.



Second what about on animals with 2 int do they learn to speak?

Yes, they do. Common, in fact.


Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)

It also breaks the game in half, as "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal", so the animal loses its animal type... but there's no provision (unlike Awaken) for it to gain a replacement type.

[Silvercrys]

I think following the rules for Awaken would be a fairly standard way of handling it, since the animal type says "no creature with an Int score higher than 2 can be an animal" rather than "No animal can have an Int score higher than 2".

Change the creature type to Magical Beast with the (Augmented Animal) subtype and carry on.

That isn't, strictly, RAW, but as others pointed out, otherwise the creature is stripped of its typing, which breaks things.

[Thurbane]

The question on whether animals (temporarily) boosted beyond 2 int turn into Magical Beasts or not has been debated through most of 3E. I don;t think a consensus has ever been reached.

If allowed, it lets you target an animal companion, so that it becomes ineligible to serve as an AC for the duration of the Int boost (since most classes don't allow Magical Beasts to serve as ACs).

[Bphill561]

I find it unlikely that casting fox's cunning for a temporary bonus to an animals intellegence score instantly grants a language for crossing the 3 barrier, or changing types for that matter (but away from the books right now). Although a pearl of speech is cheap in the magic item compendium.

[KillianHawkeye]

Refer to the text. Fox's cunning doesn't say that it changes an animal's creature type, so it doesn't do that.

[ShurikVch]

Second what about on animals with 2 int do they learn to speak?
Animals: I suspect that they would become able to learn to talk, but it wouldn't grant them knowledge of any languages.
2) Unclear. Animals are not permitted to have int over 2 so it would either increase their int to 2 (but no higher) or break the game utterly as you would randomly strip away the animal type. They would still not talk in that scenario as they have no language but if you had the ability to speak with that animal specifically (like from Knight of the Raven) it would be like conversing with a somewhat unintelligent person.Well, the "Eye for an Eye" adventure have Thornfur the White Wolf NPC, who is an actual Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm), just white and with Int 8; incapable to speech, but can communicate via "empathy"; and - no, he isn't a Magical Beast - he's former Animal Companion of Illitol (famous local Druid, at the time of the adventure - deceased)

[Silvercrys]

Well, the "Eye for an Eye" adventure have Thornfur the White Wolf NPC, who is an actual Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm), just white and with Int 8; incapable to speech, but can communicate via "empathy"; and - no, he isn't a Magical Beast - he's former Animal Companion of Illitol (famous local Druid, at the time of the adventure - deceased)I would be extremely hesitant to use any stat block from an adventure or example character to attempt to extrapolate RAI or RAW from.

That said, I do think that if it's a temporary effect, like Fox's Cunning or whatever, it's probably fine to treat it as an Animal that can understand but not speak Common. Probably includes the Headband of Intellect since it doesn't add skill points.

A permanent effect (like an inherent bonus from the Wish spell) should probably change the animal's type to Magical Beast with the (Augmented Animal) subtype, as the Awaken spell, though if I were DMing, I would probably make you use Wish to emulate Awaken before applying inherent bonuses to an animal's Int score.

And, of course, strictly by RAW, the creature loses its typing entirely unless whatever boosted its Int score expressly changes its type, like a template or the Awaken spell.

[ShurikVch]

I would be extremely hesitant to use any stat block from an adventure or example character to attempt to extrapolate RAI or RAW from.Note: this particular adventure is also the only RAW source for stats of Wolf puppies, so why, exactly, we shouldn't use it?


And, of course, strictly by RAW, the creature loses its typing entirely unless whatever boosted its Int score expressly changes its type, like a template or the Awaken spell.Aren't we overreacting there?
Look - Ooze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#oozeType) type says:
An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).But there are a number of Oozes who aren't Mindless (like Summoning Ooze, Conflagration Ooze, or Blighted Bloodfire) - right out of the box, no "template or the Awaken spell" involved
If it possible to Oozes, then why we should deny it to Animals?
After all, RAW says:
An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).Note the "(unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry)" part... :smallwink:

[Thurbane]

Well, the "Eye for an Eye" adventure have Thornfur the White Wolf NPC, who is an actual Wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm), just white and with Int 8; incapable to speech, but can communicate via "empathy"; and - no, he isn't a Magical Beast - he's former Animal Companion of Illitol (famous local Druid, at the time of the adventure - deceased)

Are you sure it's "Eye for an Eye" - I'm looking in that adventure, and unless I'm seriously fumbling my Spot check, not seeing that NPC?

[ShurikVch]

Are you sure it's "Eye for an Eye" - I'm looking in that adventure, and unless I'm seriously fumbling my Spot check, not seeing that NPC?Yes - he's on page #74, right lower corner (F. Remains of the Road.)

[Thurbane]

Yes - he's on page #74, right lower corner (F. Remains of the Road.)

I'm guessing we're talking about different things: "An Eye for an Eye" is "A short adventure for four 8th-level player characters", and only has 6 pages. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20010824a

Is this a first party adventure?

[ShurikVch]

I'm guessing we're talking about different things: "An Eye for an Eye" is "A short adventure for four 8th-level player characters", and only has 6 pages. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20010824a

Is this a first party adventure?Dungeon #82

[Silvercrys]

Note: this particular adventure is also the only RAW source for stats of Wolf puppies, so why, exactly, we shouldn't use it?Because adventure designers and example writers for 3e have a notorious history of not building legal characters.


Aren't we overreacting there?
Look - Ooze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#oozeType) type says:But there are a number of Oozes who aren't Mindless (like Summoning Ooze, Conflagration Ooze, or Blighted Bloodfire) - right out of the box, no "template or the Awaken spell" involved
If it possible to Oozes, then why we should deny it to Animals?
After all, RAW says:

Note the "(unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry)" part... :smallwink:Okay, sure, you could make the argument that this fixes anything that changes a particular animal's Int score.

It doesn't really make sense to me that they would explicitly call out Oozes as being mindless and Animals as not having an Int higher than 2 when they clearly could have/should have just handled it creature by creature by assigning appropriate ability scores like they did with mindless undead, though.

[ShurikVch]

I just noticed: Onyx Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#onyxDog) - it's a Riding Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) with Int 8 :smallbiggrin:
No, it's not a Construct, nor Magical Beast or Outsider...

[Thurbane]

I just noticed: Onyx Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#onyxDog) - it's a Riding Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) with Int 8 :smallbiggrin:
No, it's not a Construct, nor Magical Beast or Outsider...

It's a bit of an outlier, being a magical item and all.

But good find.

[Dimers]

:smallconfused: I thought magic items with Intelligence scores are also creatures with the 'construct' type?

[ShurikVch]

:smallconfused: I thought magic items with Intelligence scores are also creatures with the 'construct' type?The thing there: the Figurines of Wondrous Power by itself aren't intelligent at all - they're just figurines; but they can turn into Animals(/Vermins/.../whatever); because RAW doesn't said those Animals have Construct Traits, we should presume they're living flesh and blood.

[Thurbane]

I've always wondered what happens with an Intelligent Magic Item Figurine...does it keep its magic item intelligence and special abilities in animal form?