Optimizing Booming Blade + Swashbuckler

[OgataiKhan]

Hello all!



I’m wondering how can I maximise the effectiveness of the Booming Blade cantrip in combo with the Swashbuckler’s Fancy Footwork feature, which prevents attacked enemies from using opportunity attacks against me that turn.

This allows me to run up to an enemy with no ranged attacks, hit them with Booming Blade, and then withdraw, forcing them to take the extra damage or waste their turn. 
In all my damage calculations I will assume that the extra damage takes effect, because wasting the enemy’s turn is even better.

This is my current plan:



I’ll start with Fighter 1. This gives me access to shields, heavy armour, and the Dueling fighting style. 
Of course this incentivises me to play a Warforged, so that I can take advantage of heavy armour without the encessary Strength.

Then I’ll go Swashbuckler Rogue 3 for Fancy Footwork, 2d6 of Sneak Attack, and Cunning Action.

Finally, to finish the core of the build, I’ll go Shadow Sorcerer 1 for Booming Blade, Shield, and a few other goodies.

After that going Swashbuckler 5 gives me my first ASI (+2 Dex), Uncanny Dodge for those attacks Shield doesn’t cover, and my third Sneak Attack die.

At this point, at level 7, I have an AC of 21 and can deal 2d8 (Rapier+BB)+2 (Dueling)+4 (Dex)+3d6 (Sneak Attack), average 25.5. After adding the extra BB damage it’s 34.5. Against an AC of 15, factoring in crits, that’s a DPR of 23.4.

By comparison a sword & board Fighter deals 16.55 DPR against the same AC, and a non-VHuman GWM/PAM Fighter deals 19.05 (not factoring Battle Master maneuvers) while having a lower AC himself and no Shield spell.


After that I’d go Shadow Sorcerer 5 for the second +2 Dex, Darkness that I can see through for advantage, and 3rd level spells. This also notably gives me access to Quicken Spell and Twin Spell. I can quicken BB to cast it as a bonus action, then cast it again as an action and twin it, effectively casting BB 3 times in one turn for 3 sorcery points, all with advantage if I’m under the effect of Darkness. Expensive, but effective.



Then I’d go Battle Master Fighter 3 for Action Surge and the Battle Master maneuvers (to make sure I rarely miss out on Sneak Attack) and take the rest of my levels in Sorcerer for the Sorcery Points.

At level 20, quickening and twinning a Booming Blade, I can deal in one turn:

(4d8+2+5)*3 (BB attacks)+3d6 (Sneak Attack)+3d8 (BM maneuvers) = 99, becomes 153 with the extra BB damage.

If I use Action Surge I can hit with BB 5 times, so it becomes 153.5 (243.5 with the extra damage).
All of these attacks are delivered with advantage thanks to Darkness.


The closest comparison I can think of is a Sorlock who uses Darkness instead of Hex, and he would deal (4d10+20+24)*2 = 132 with advantage.
Against one of the strongest builds in the game I think my build compares pretty decently.



The obvious disadvantages are that I’m less useful against ranged enemies and against single bosses, but in our campaign we rarely fight against just one enemy.


Point buy:



8
15+1
13+1
8
12
15+1


ASI:
+2 Dex
+2 Dex
War Caster (helps with keeping concentration on Darkness, casting spells with my hands full, and the occasional Booming Blade on an opportunity attack)
Lucky

What do you think of my build? Is there anything I could do to make it more effective?

[Yakmala]

I'm using a Swashbuckler with Booming Blade in the Ghosts of Saltmarsh campaign I'm currently in.

Level 1: Variant Half Elf Rogue with Booming Blade cantrip in place of extra skills.

Level 3: Become a Swashbuckler. You now have Rakish Audacity and Fancy Footwork.

That's it. You can land Booming Blade + Sneak Attack and move away from the target without provoking opportunity attacks, all by Level 3. After that, you can do what you like with character progression.

And since Swashbuckler, Variant Elves and Booming Blade can all be found in the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide, the build is legal for AL's PHB+1 rules.

[Laserlight]

The problem is that the Swashbuckler sort of assumes you're keeping your bonus action available for an offhand attack, so you get another chance at landing your sneak attack damage if you miss with your first attack. Using a spell (BB) instead of a melee attack eliminates that possibility. Whether it's worth it or not depends on the AC of your usual targets, I suppose.

[Contrast]

In order to twin you need 2 different targets. Also if you quicken onto a target you've already cast the spell on you'll only get one instance of the extra proc if they move as you can't stack the same spell on a person.

I feel like you're over-estimating how often you'll be getting the additional damage. If they're already in combat with one of your allies they'll just stay still and attack them probably. Or anyone who is a spellcaster or with a ranged attack could be perfectly happy standing still.

So just don't expect to be pulling those numbers off very consistently and you'll be fine :smalltongue: Personally I'd just take Magic Initiate and scrap all the multi-classing but you do whatever seems fun. Shadow Blade is a good spell if you do go sorc.

[Misterwhisper]

The problem is that the Swashbuckler sort of assumes you're keeping your bonus action available for an offhand attack, so you get another chance at landing your sneak attack damage if you miss with your first attack. Using a spell (BB) instead of a melee attack eliminates that possibility. Whether it's worth it or not depends on the AC of your usual targets, I suppose.

Also the issue that it is much harder to get advantage for melee rogues than ranges ones so less likely to get a better chance at a crit or use of elven accuracy.

I played a hexblade 2 swashbuckler 1 -14 and was all charisma based.

It was amazing.

Cast bb if enemy seemed easier to hit.
Attack and ba attack if they were tougher
EB if they were at a distance
Devils sight for great safety net
Free medium armor and a shield if I needed one.

I boosted cha and left dex at 16, which is plenty.

[Corran]

Hello all!



I’m wondering how can I maximise the effectiveness of the Booming Blade cantrip in combo with the Swashbuckler’s Fancy Footwork feature, which prevents attacked enemies from using opportunity attacks against me that turn.

This allows me to run up to an enemy with no ranged attacks, hit them with Booming Blade, and then withdraw, forcing them to take the extra damage or waste their turn. 
In all my damage calculations I will assume that the extra damage takes effect, because wasting the enemy’s turn is even better.

Bolded part:
There is a 3rd possibility, which is the real problem with your plan. If you have other melee allies, then (some of) the enemies can just engage them and not worry about chasing you across the battlefield. That's a problem. You need to find a way to make it bad for them staying where they are or for not chasing you down.

Secondly, if you change from twf to BB, the first thing you really need is to find a way to gain advantage. Losing a second chance at sneak attack hurts your dpr, but having advantage would make up for it.

Since when using BB you wont usually commit your reaction to anything else on a regular basis (just like you would have done if you were using twf for example), that means that you can rely on cunning action for moving away without provoking OA's. That means that you don't really need to go with the swashbuckler archetype. Not that it is a bad choice, but don't feel committed to get fancy footwork.

[Misterwhisper]

Bolded part:
There is a 3rd possibility, which is the real problem with your plan. If you have other melee allies, then (some of) the enemies can just engage them and not worry about chasing you across the battlefield. That's a problem. You need to find a way to make it bad for them staying where they are or for not chasing you down.

Secondly, if you change from twf to BB, the first thing you really need is to find a way to gain advantage. Losing a second chance at sneak attack hurts your dpr, but having advantage would make up for it.

Since when using BB you wont usually commit your reaction to anything else on a regular basis (just like you would have done if you were using twf for example), that means that you can rely on cunning action for moving away without provoking OA's. That means that you don't really need to go with the swashbuckler archetype. Not that it is a bad choice, but don't feel committed to get fancy footwork.

Swashbuckler is badly needed for melee as it is so much harder to get advantage... unless you have a familiar from AT, Magic initiate, or somewhere

[Corran]

Swashbuckler is badly needed for melee as it is so much harder to get advantage... unless you have a familiar from AT, Magic initiate, or somewhere
I don't see why you would need swashbuckler though. What does it offer that we really want?
I am not being ironic here, I am honestly wondering if I am missing something.

Edit: Ah, it's about sneak attack, I get it. Still, I would try for getting advantage anyway (so that I can push my dpr; advantage would work great on a heavy sneak attack BB build), so if there is a good way to go about it, then we wouldn't really need swashbuckler (well, maybe for OA's, but if we plan to hit and run then it's a bit moot). Familiar, shield master (old ruling), or getting it from an ally are the easiest ways I can think of, at least those that could work semi-regularly.

ps: I am wondering if 3 levels of warlock for an invisible imp would be worth it (if using SM's Crawford ruling and if you cannot be buffed by an ally). You know, since it will probably be a lot harder for it to die compared to a normal familiar. And even then of course, we would need ways to make the enemies want to move and take the BB secondary damage (after having engaged other allies of ours), or more unlikely to find ways so that everyone at the group can hit and run.

@OP: If you grab fighter levels (I noticed a mention of fighter in the op), look at pushing attack. Using BB and a push means you can trigger the secondary damage more easily. Still, not something to spam as sd are just a few.

[OgataiKhan]

The problem is that the Swashbuckler sort of assumes you're keeping your bonus action available for an offhand attack, so you get another chance at landing your sneak attack damage if you miss with your first attack. Using a spell (BB) instead of a melee attack eliminates that possibility. Whether it's worth it or not depends on the AC of your usual targets, I suppose.

Using BB doesn't eliminate the possibility of attacking twice if you use quickened or twinned spell, that's the point of this build.


In order to twin you need 2 different targets. Also if you quicken onto a target you've already cast the spell on you'll only get one instance of the extra proc if they move as you can't stack the same spell on a person.

I feel like you're over-estimating how often you'll be getting the additional damage. If they're already in combat with one of your allies they'll just stay still and attack them probably. Or anyone who is a spellcaster or with a ranged attack could be perfectly happy standing still.

So just don't expect to be pulling those numbers off very consistently and you'll be fine :smalltongue: Personally I'd just take Magic Initiate and scrap all the multi-classing but you do whatever seems fun. Shadow Blade is a good spell if you do go sorc.

Of course, my math assumes perfect situations with lots of lockable enemies. In real play I'll need to tweak my approach with GFB or as you suggest Shadow Blade against certain enemies. Truth is, I don't really like single-classed characters xD


Also the issue that it is much harder to get advantage for melee rogues than ranges ones so less likely to get a better chance at a crit or use of elven accuracy.

Hence my use of Darkness + Devil's Sight, although I must be careful not to blind my party with that. An alternative is Shadow Blade in dim light.


Bolded part:
There is a 3rd possibility, which is the real problem with your plan. If you have other melee allies, then (some of) the enemies can just engage them and not worry about chasing you across the battlefield. That's a problem. You need to find a way to make it bad for them staying where they are or for not chasing you down.

Secondly, if you change from twf to BB, the first thing you really need is to find a way to gain advantage. Losing a second chance at sneak attack hurts your dpr, but having advantage would make up for it.

Since when using BB you wont usually commit your reaction to anything else on a regular basis (just like you would have done if you were using twf for example), that means that you can rely on cunning action for moving away without provoking OA's. That means that you don't really need to go with the swashbuckler archetype. Not that it is a bad choice, but don't feel committed to get fancy footwork.

You are right in your first point, it will require some collaboration with the party. If two enemies are engaged in combat with my ally side by side I can just Green Flame Blade.
As for losing my second chance at sneak attack, that's why I go sorcerer: by quickening and/or twinning BB every turn I'll be making 2/3 attacks per turn despite BB. And, I will also have advantage thanks to Darkness. That's 4-6 chances at hitting with Sneak Attack in fights that matter (at high level).
For the same reason I can't use my bonus action for disengaging, I need it for attacking.


@OP: If you grab fighter levels (I noticed a mention of fighter in the op), look at pushing attack. Using BB and a push means you can trigger the secondary damage more easily. Still, not something to spam as sd are just a few.

Doesn't work, the damage only triggers if the target moves voluntarily.

[Corran]

Doesn't work, the damage only triggers if the target moves voluntarily.
Yes, but they will have to move back into melee after you push them away, so that's when BB's secondary damage triggers.

Also, ask the DM about how many fights you will be having per adventuring day (or ask if the are planning to follow the DMG guidelines). Bottom line, get an idea. Cause if you will be going through enough encounters, the sp wont be enough to carry you through the day, so quickening/twinning cantrips wont be sth you can spam.

[Grimmnist]

ps: I am wondering if 3 levels of warlock for an invisible imp would be worth it (if using SM's Crawford ruling and if you cannot be buffed by an ally). You know, since it will probably be a lot harder for it to die compared to a normal familiar. And even then of course, we would need ways to make the enemies want to move and take the BB secondary damage (after having engaged other allies of ours), or more unlikely to find ways so that everyone at the group can hit and run.


I generally think multiclassing isn't worth it. In a few cases it can be exceptionally good, but it slows you down so much on your base class that you usually are delaying features better than the ones you gain from the dip. In this case you are losing 2d6 of sneak attack damage per turn in exchange for a more consistent way to proc sneak attack. It's already pretty easy to get sneak attack, especially as swashbuckler, so this might be suboptimal. There is an argument for making a Darkness/Devil's Sight Rogue to farm some advantage though.

I think unless you are playing in a game with very fast level advancement this would be spread too thin for most of the campaign.

[Misterwhisper]

I generally think multiclassing isn't worth it. In a few cases it can be exceptionally good, but it slows you down so much on your base class that you usually are delaying features better than the ones you gain from the dip. In this case you are losing 2d6 of sneak attack damage per turn in exchange for a more consistent way to proc sneak attack. It's already pretty easy to get sneak attack, especially as swashbuckler, so this might be suboptimal. There is an argument for making a Darkness/Devil's Sight Rogue to farm some advantage though.

I think unless you are playing in a game with very fast level advancement this would be spread too thin for most of the campaign.

If someone really wants a familiar, which as a rogue is a huge plus, you would be better off getting it from a feat because rogues are rather SAD and can afford it, or just play arcane trickster.

[Gignere]

OP unless you’re starting high level most multiclass beyond 1 or 2 level dips are very painful to level. Like you won’t even be using BB until what level 6?

By this time your barbarian is likely GWM hitting with extra attacks.

Your wizards/sorcerers are dominating with fireball/hynoptic patterns/etc.

Clerics are using Guardian Spirit/ spiritual weapon.

By the time you get devil’s sight and or BM dice. Everyone else is getting their second or third ASIs and level 4 spells. A triple multi class that doesn’t fully turn on until level 8 is not going to be fun imo.

[OgataiKhan]

Yes, but they will have to move back into melee after you push them away, so that's when BB's secondary damage triggers.

Also, ask the DM about how many fights you will be having per adventuring day (or ask if the are planning to follow the DMG guidelines). Bottom line, get an idea. Cause if you will be going through enough encounters, the sp wont be enough to carry you through the day, so quickening/twinning cantrips wont be sth you can spam.

That's true, I didn't realise! I can use it against an enemy engaged in melee with a party member and force them to close the distance again. Thank you!

And yes, of course the sorcery points are a big limitation. I'll have to play a bit conservatively whenever I can.



OP unless you’re starting high level most multiclass beyond 1 or 2 level dips are very painful to level. Like you won’t even be using BB until what level 6?

By this time your barbarian is likely GWM hitting with extra attacks.

Your wizards/sorcerers are dominating with fireball/hynoptic patterns/etc.

Clerics are using Guardian Spirit/ spiritual weapon.

By the time you get devil’s sight and or BM dice. Everyone else is getting their second or third ASIs and level 4 spells. A triple multi class that doesn’t fully turn on until level 8 is not going to be fun imo.

I cannot really make comparisons with full casters since we are doing different things, but this build comes online at level 5 (Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 3/Sorc 1) and thanks to BB can already compete with extra attack. Before that I'm essentially a Fighter with Sneak Attack, still perfectly usable.

I did the math for level 7 to make sure the build works throughout the levelling process and, at that level, I outdamage a GWM Fighter against an AC of 15.
There will of course be levels at which I slightly fall behind, but overall I think the build compares decently to other DPR builds from level 5 onwards and stays really relevant up to level 20.

II also find the build really fun to play since, after the enemies engage your party members in melee, you need to get creative in order to maximise the BB/GFB/Twin/Quicken/Superiority Dice damage, and certainly different from anything I ever played.

Truth is, I don't really like playing single-classed characters. I prefer ones I build myself and I enjoy the challenge of combining the various pieces to reach and overcome the power level of a pure class.

[Gignere]

I did the math for level 7 to make sure the build works throughout the levelling process and, at that level, I outdamage a GWM Fighter against an AC of 15.

I did the math and you’d have to assume he has the same to hit as you / or no PAM and your target always move after your BB for this to be true.

However a fighter has two ASIs already and if human essentially 3. You also completely neglect the fighter’s ability to self buff via BM dice or EK’s self buffs to get advantage at level 7. As well as any additional party buffs that might come in play and perhaps magic weapon. When you consider those the GWM even without PAM will outstrip you in damage fairly easily.

I even did the math giving your setup the same buffs and magic weapons, it’s just that GWM scales like crazy with attack buffs. With just advantage the GWM will beat your damage.

Forget adding PAM, with PAM the fighter will be ahead with or without buffs. None of this takes into account of fighter’s features.

A straight level 7 EK can essentially do the same thing you are doing with the Mobile feat but with higher damage. He can BB plus an extra attack and dance out to force movement with a great sword. And have an extra +1 to hit and damage, +2 if vhuman.

However like you said you like MC characters but I think you need a more holistic view to truly compare if you are equal or more effective than a straight class. Of course you are more versatile than a straight fighter but with any type of optimization your damage doesn’t really come close.

[greenstone]

Of course, my math assumes perfect situations with lots of lockable enemies.
If there are lots of enemies then Rackish Audacity probably won't be possible.

Also watch out for readied actions. If you keep darting in, attacking, then darting out, at some point a smart foe is just going to ready an attack to hit you.

[Misterwhisper]

If there are lots of enemies then Rackish Audacity probably won't be possible.

Also watch out for readied actions. If you keep darting in, attacking, then darting out, at some point a smart foe is just going to ready an attack to hit you.

Good then they didn't use multi attack or any actual good ability and burned their reaction.

[CTurbo]

I've played a Draconic Sorc 1/ Swashbuckler before and while spamming Booming Blade all the time can be effective, there are also a LOT of times where causing a huge BOOM of thunder is a really bad idea. Just keep that in mind.

I went Draconic for the better than leather AC of 13+ Dex

[Tallytrev813]

I have a hard time NOT playing V. Human when i play Swashbuckler, because Magic Initiate gives me booming blade but more importantly, it gives me Find Familiar...which i use to summon an Owl...that i beg the DM to let me re-skin into a parrot.

Squawk, Wind in the sails...SQUAWK