Strongest full caster that gets extra attack feature.

[Spacehamster]

So in the playgrounds opinion, what is the strongest subclass full caster(counting warlocks since they do get a once per long rest 6,7,8,9 spell) with extra attack feature? Hexblade bladelock or swords bard perhaps?

With strongest I mean which one overall functions best at the gish type, good martial potential but able to mantle the role of caster decently too.

Edit: single class perspective only and ofc a bonus if it’s decently strong all the way, like valor and swords bard suffer a bit up until ten when they can pick some really strong spells.

[nickl_2000]

Bladesinger Wizard wins hands down in my opinion.

[Reevh]

Bladesinger or Swords Bard imo. Hexblade is cool in a lot of ways, but I don't think as a standalone non-multiclass it's as powerful as those other two mechanically.

[Nhorianscum]

Favored soul

[Contrast]

Strongest? Blademaster. edit - *Bladesinger.

One that works best for actually going into melee consistently to attack as part of its usual combat to combat gameplan? Warlock.

Shout out to Moon Druids as well which do not get extra attack but do get multi-attack.

[Reevh]

Strongest? Blademaster.

One that works best for actually going into melee consistently to attack as part of its usual combat to combat gameplan? Warlock.

Shout out to Moon Druids as well which do not get extra attack but do get multi-attack.

Blademaster?

[Trickery]

There's no right answer.

Bards and Wizards are probably the strongest classes in general, but their archetypes (Valor, Swords, and Bladesinger) don't do much weapon damage when played optimally (barring silly Tenser builds).

The highest melee damage Gish is a Hexblade with Elven Accuracy, Great Weapon Master, and a greatsword. I'm aware of no competition for this. This character can also use darkness/shadow of moil and tomb of levistus to be pretty hard to kill, making it a strong choice.

The new Valenar Double Scimitar would also work well for the Hexblade build (swap GWM for Revenant Blade), and has slightly higher AC and a more consistent bonus action attack, but does less damage and is pigeonholed into using a rare weapon. But it's definitely viable. You could also make a Dex-based non-Hexblade variant of this build given finesse on the feat (if so inclined), which might be better since Hexblades like their bonus actions for Hexblade's Curse. For that reason, a Hexblade is likely still better off with the greatsword.

[Unintensified]

As some above have mentioned, moon Druid gets a semi multi-attack feature in the form of wildshape forms. I personally like this, because it doesn't prevent the druid from general buffs, summoning and OOC healing/utility (three things I think the druid class is built for), and doesn't force them to be MAD either. It's kind of similar to Tenser's Transformation in that it allows a normally combat-weak spellcaster to take it to the front lines without investing into other stats. Except this Transformation doesn't take the concentration, adds a shield of hitpoints, doesn't make you make a save vs exhaustion, provides a large buffer of hitpoints, and doesn't take a spell slot. Tenser's probably gives you more raw damage and doesn't end when the hp buffer runs out, but it's a comparison I like to make.

Looking outside the small technicality that is a Moon Druid, I am partial to the Bladesinger, because it keeps all the parts of a wizard that makes it great, but also turns it into quite an effective martial build, using a stat that most Wizards will want to prioritize anyways. (After Int of course.)

[Keravath]

There's no right answer.

...

The highest melee damage Gish is a Hexblade with Elven Accuracy, Great Weapon Master, and a greatsword. I'm aware of no competition for this. This character can also use darkness/shadow of moil and tomb of levistus to be pretty hard to kill, making it a strong choice.

...


I'd suggest PAM, GWM and Elven Accuracy (for crit fishing). GWM doesn't always give you a bonus action attack while PAM does. The improved version takes at least 3 levels of sorcerer in order to quicken shadows of moil on the first turn of combat and not lose their first round attacks.

[Trickery]

I'd suggest PAM, GWM and Elven Accuracy (for crit fishing). GWM doesn't always give you a bonus action attack while PAM does. The improved version takes at least 3 levels of sorcerer in order to quicken shadows of moil on the first turn of combat and not lose their first round attacks.

That's valid, but I'd rather get Warcaster and then +2CHA in the long run. There will be enough rounds in combat where a Hexblade needs their bonus action to apply Curse, use misty step, or gets a crit and can GWM bonus attack.

Also two levels of fighter is much better than the capstone, but I don't anticipate ever getting to those levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My guess would be Hexblade. It's hard to beat medium armor while attacking with your casting stat. Bladesingers are much better at casting than they are at using a sword, Extra Attack or no, and the Bards don't really flourish until higher levels.

[Contrast]

Blademaster?

Sorry bladesinger, I'll edit :smallbiggrin:

[solidork]

My guess would be Hexblade. It's hard to beat medium armor while attacking with your casting stat. Bladesingers are much better at casting than they are at using a sword, Extra Attack or no, and the Bards don't really flourish until higher levels.

But Swords bards start flourishing right at level 3!

[darknite]

Bladesinger is a good choice but I like the Sword Bard.

[Reevh]

A lot of people here are focusing more on the melee and less on the casting. A swords bars may indeed hit a bit weaker typically than an optimized hex blade, but it’s still a Bard, a much stronger caster than a hex blade, and good at all the skills to boot!

[nickl_2000]

A lot of people here are focusing more on the melee and less on the casting. A swords bars may indeed hit a bit weaker typically than an optimized hex blade, but it’s still a Bard, a much stronger caster than a hex blade, and good at all the skills to boot!

Which is actually why I chose Bladesinger. They get two attacks, they get some decent AC with shield spell and bladesong, they get all the utility with ritual spells, and they have a huge adjustable spell list.

[Reevh]

Which is actually why I chose Bladesinger. They get two attacks, they get some decent AC with shield spell and bladesong, they get all the utility with ritual spells, and they have a huge adjustable spell list.

Yeah Bladesinger is a solid choice.

I think I prefer swords bars though because I prefer the fantasy of the Bard, and the skill bonuses are hard to pass up.

[Trickery]

A lot of people here are focusing more on the melee and less on the casting. A swords bars may indeed hit a bit weaker typically than an optimized hex blade, but it’s still a Bard, a much stronger caster than a hex blade, and good at all the skills to boot!

I'd rather have both a bard and a Hexblade than two Bards. The Hexblade can kill enemies very quickly, and that's important since it means less resource expenditure for the full party. But if I could only pick one, I'd rather group with a Bard.

Not that you mentioned two bards or anything. I just think we need to be careful when we say X is better than Y when the two are distinct enough that you'd want both.

[Callin]

To piggy back off this thread. Whats better for Melee for a Hexblade Blade Pact. Taking the extra melee attack invocation or just using Cantrips like Booming Blade or Greenfire Blade. Not using GWM or Elven Accuracy.

[Misterwhisper]

To piggy back off this thread. Whats better for Melee for a Hexblade Blade Pact. Taking the extra melee attack invocation or just using Cantrips like Booming Blade or Greenfire Blade. Not using GWM or Elven Accuracy.

EB takes a lot less investment.

Once they hit 12 as blade pact of you have PAM it makes a big difference.

One BB at 12 for 2d6 + 2d8 + cha + cha

Or

Pam for (1d10 + cha + cha) x 2 and 1d4 + cha + cha

If I was going to go BB GFB I would go celestial tome, if PAM I would go hexblade blade pact.

[zinycor]

I would probably pick valor bard

[Reevh]

I'd rather have both a bard and a Hexblade than two Bards. The Hexblade can kill enemies very quickly, and that's important since it means less resource expenditure for the full party. But if I could only pick one, I'd rather group with a Bard.

Not that you mentioned two bards or anything. I just think we need to be careful when we say X is better than Y when the two are distinct enough that you'd want both.

Yeah I’d agree with that. D&D is a game with party dynamics for sure.

My last party was a Forge Cleric, a Swashbuckler Rogue, a Lore Bard, a Vengeance Paladin, and a Dreams Druid.

All of those are powerful archetypes in their own right, but we were DEFINITELY greater than the sum of our parts. If we'd been a party of entirely one of those classes, we would have had a much harder time. As it was, our DM was sending 5 or more 4x Deadly encounters (as determined by CR) at us each day. And this was with +1 weapons and no multiclassing munchkin builds. The party just had all the right pieces to support each other just right.

[Trickery]

To piggy back off this thread. Whats better for Melee for a Hexblade Blade Pact. Taking the extra melee attack invocation or just using Cantrips like Booming Blade or Greenfire Blade. Not using GWM or Elven Accuracy.

The extra attack adds more damage, especially due to Hexblade's Curse. It also gives you more chances to crit meaning more chances to use Eldritch Smite, another invocation you should have as a damage-focused Hexblade. That said, there's nothing wrong with the blade cantrips, and you can create a very effective tank using those with Warcaster and potentially Sentinel on a Hexblade.

[RSP]

To piggy back off this thread. Whats better for Melee for a Hexblade Blade Pact. Taking the extra melee attack invocation or just using Cantrips like Booming Blade or Greenfire Blade. Not using GWM or Elven Accuracy.

You want the extra attack. First off, you chose Blade Pact: if not wanting to extra attack choose one of the other pacts as they’re essentially exactly the same at melee as not using Thirsting Blade (only not having the IPW invocation option for +1 to hit/damage, and not getting Lifedrinker at 12) with much better benefits. Also, the SCAG melee cantrips are all-or-nothing and there’ll be plenty of times that equals no effect from your action during a round. To add to this, Hexblades Curse, Lifedrinker and Hex all add damage per hit, so 2 potential hits is better than 1.

[RSP]

So in the playgrounds opinion, what is the strongest subclass full caster(counting warlocks since they do get a once per long rest 6,7,8,9 spell) with extra attack feature? Hexblade bladelock or swords bard perhaps?

With strongest I mean which one overall functions best at the gish type, good martial potential but able to mantle the role of caster decently too.

Edit: single class perspective only and ofc a bonus if it’s decently strong all the way, like valor and swords bard suffer a bit up until ten when they can pick some really strong spells.

Bladesinger probably. They have the best balance of effective melee abilities (offense and defense) and casting.

Hexblades aren’t bad, and probably are better at melee damage for the most part, but are limited in their casting which impacts their melee abilities. For instance, you won’t want to waste a Shield casting with a 3+ slot (and still can only do it a maximum of 2 rounds a combat for the majority of play). You’ll also have a worse AC, no Absorb Elements and only 1 hit point extra a level. They can mitigate damage somewhat with AoA and a few other trucks but it’s not enough defensive ability to match that of a Bladesinger, who gets most of what a Hexblade gets on offense, if a level or two later.

Bards are a great class but I don’t think their Inspiration abilities match what Bladesingers and Hexblades get for damage output. Likewise, they tend to need to put their best class ability, Magical Secrets, towards getting spells either Hexblades or Bladesingers already get. So they can get most of the defensive abilities of a Bladesinger, though much later than the BS, but not have much else.

Basically, between the three classs:

BS is best defensive melee; probably 2nd best offensive melee, and best caster.

Hexblade is best offense, second best defense, worst caster.

Sword or Valor Bard is worst offense, worst defense, second best caster.

Just my opinion though

[Reevh]

Bladesinger probably. They have the best balance of effective melee abilities (offense and defense) and casting.

Hexblades aren’t bad, and probably are better at melee damage for the most part, but are limited in their casting which impacts their melee abilities. For instance, you won’t want to waste a Shield casting with a 3+ slot (and still can only do it a maximum of 2 rounds a combat for the majority of play). You’ll also have a worse AC, no Absorb Elements and only 1 hit point extra a level. They can mitigate damage somewhat with AoA and a few other trucks but it’s not enough defensive ability to match that of a Bladesinger, who gets most of what a Hexblade gets on offense, if a level or two later.

Bards are a great class but I don’t think their Inspiration abilities match what Bladesingers and Hexblades get for damage output. Likewise, they tend to need to put their best class ability, Magical Secrets, towards getting spells either Hexblades or Bladesingers already get. So they can get most of the defensive abilities of a Bladesinger, though much later than the BS, but not have much else.

Basically, between the three classs:

BS is best defensive melee; probably 2nd best offensive melee, and best caster.

Hexblade is best offense, second best defense, worst caster.

Sword or Valor Bard is worst offense, worst defense, second best caster.

Just my opinion though

One of the things I love about D&D is that there's enough difficult to quantify value in the various classes that we can all legitimately have differing opinions on this stuff.

[Corran]

I'd go with bladesinger. That's because they don't have to commit their concentration in order to be good at melee. They can concentrate on a big spell, and they can melee decently thanks to stuff like bladesinging and shield. Hexblade seems decent for tanking one big cursed target with armor of hexes, but they otherwise seem a bit too squishy.

[JumboWheat01]

I'm rather fond of Valor Bards for full casters with extra attacks. You have full weapon proficiency, shield proficiency, medium armor, 9 levels of spells, spells you can steal from others, healing spells of your own, and you have an ability that lets you attack after casting a spell. What's the point of having full casting and martial power if you have to actually decide each round which one to do? Just do both! Viciously mock something at range and strike the poor fool in front of you.

On top of that, you still have bardic inspiration for party support, and your skill monkey nature, including expertise in four skills.

[Keravath]

That's valid, but I'd rather get Warcaster and then +2CHA in the long run. There will be enough rounds in combat where a Hexblade needs their bonus action to apply Curse, use misty step, or gets a crit and can GWM bonus attack.

Also two levels of fighter is much better than the capstone, but I don't anticipate ever getting to those levels.

One more comment though, if you are using a two handed weapon there really isn't much need for warcaster unless you want to cast a cantrip on an opportunity attack. You don't need it for casting spells, so in a build like this one there are other feats/ASI I would take first (e.g. resilient con and 2x +2 CHA ASIs)

[Trickery]

One more comment though, if you are using a two handed weapon there really isn't much need for warcaster unless you want to cast a cantrip on an opportunity attack. You don't need it for casting spells, so in a build like this one there are other feats/ASI I would take first (e.g. resilient con and 2x +2 CHA ASIs)

Was more worried about saving throws. Cantrip reactions are nice, but saving throws are the bigger deal.

Warcaster has a bigger impact at low levels, but Resilient Con is definitely the way to go at later levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A lot of people here are focusing more on the melee and less on the casting. A swords bars may indeed hit a bit weaker typically than an optimized hex blade, but it’s still a Bard, a much stronger caster than a hex blade, and good at all the skills to boot!
In large part it's a question of what you mean by "gish." If you want a full caster who can pick up a sword occasionally, then Bladesinger is exactly what you're after. On the other hand, if you want to emphasize the fighting more than the magic (which was what the original question sounded like), the Bladesinger will let you down-- without fighting styles, heavy weapons, or any other sort of all-day means of boosting your attacks, your base weapon damage kinda stinks. You also get surprisingly few spells to directly buff your kill-things-with-a-sword ability. Defenses, sure, but offense? I can think of Shadow Blade, Enlarge/Reduce, and... that's about it for most of your career.

On the other hand, the Hexblade is definitely not as good a caster as a Wizard. That's not much of a question, I don't think. But what they do have is martial power. Medium armor and shields mean that their standard AC can be almost as high as a Bladesinger mid-song, they start with a higher HD and no need to waste a slot on Mage Armor, and the reduced MAD from bloody Hex Warrior means their point-buy and ASIs will go farther. Hexblade's Curse boosts offense and defense, and your spell list is loaded with gish dream spells like Armor of Agathys, Hex, Elemental Weapon, and Banishing Smite.

The Bladesinger will cast better, but the Hexblade will fight better.

[Damon_Tor]

The highest melee damage Gish is a Hexblade with Elven Accuracy, Great Weapon Master, and a greatsword. I'm aware of no competition for this. This character can also use darkness/shadow of moil and tomb of levistus to be pretty hard to kill, making it a strong choice.

As as far as consistent damage is concerned, you're probably right. However, a class that can use Shadow Blade is going to be dealing more damage than a Hexblade in a "nova" capacity. I played a sorcerer specialized in this tactic from level 3 to level 15, and the amount of damage he was able to pull off in a single round was astounding by using Booming Blade Quickened and/or Twinned. He wasn't tanking of course, he was using the mobile feat and the movement penalty of Booming Blade to skirmish. Of course the character runs on daily resources, so that needs to be taken into account when considering builds, but daily resource classes will tend to out-nova other classes because they can pour a whole days worth of resources into one encounter if they have to. This is especially true for a sorcerer, who can eat lower level spell slots to create additional higher level slots (at early levels, this can include spell slots he shouldn't even have access to yet.)

[Trickery]

As as far as consistent damage is concerned, you're probably right. However, a class that can use Shadow Blade is going to be dealing more damage than a Hexblade in a "nova" capacity. I played a sorcerer specialized in this tactic from level 3 to level 15, and the amount of damage he was able to pull off in a single round was astounding by using Booming Blade Quickened and/or Twinned. He wasn't tanking of course, he was using the mobile feat and the movement penalty of Booming Blade to skirmish. Of course the character runs on daily resources, so that needs to be taken into account when considering builds, but daily resource classes will tend to out-nova other classes because they can pour a whole days worth of resources into one encounter if they have to. This is especially true for a sorcerer, who can eat lower level spell slots to create additional higher level slots (at early levels, this can include spell slots he shouldn't even have access to yet.)

Well, if going down that route, I can make you a shadow blade, Booming blade twinning, Greenflame Blade quickening, smite-spamming coffeelock that never runs out of spell slots. But I don't think that fits the criteria of "full caster" or would be acceptable to most of the playground.

[RSP]

In large part it's a question of what you mean by "gish." If you want a full caster who can pick up a sword occasionally, then Bladesinger is exactly what you're after. On the other hand, if you want to emphasize the fighting more than the magic (which was what the original question sounded like), the Bladesinger will let you down-- without fighting styles, heavy weapons, or any other sort of all-day means of boosting your attacks, your base weapon damage kinda stinks. You also get surprisingly few spells to directly buff your kill-things-with-a-sword ability. Defenses, sure, but offense? I can think of Shadow Blade, Enlarge/Reduce, and... that's about it for most of your career.


Don’t sell Shadow Blade short: it’s pretty fantastic with all day Advantage (dim light should be relatively easy to find in most campaigns) and base 2d8+mod damage: you’ll be using Elven Advantage a lot more with SB than with anything else short of Foresight. You can do a lot worse in terms of melee output.

Though I do think the Hexblade slightly out-damages the BS overall, the BS isn’t that far behind. They both get +casting mod to damage, and the Hexblade likewise lacks a fighting style.

I wish they hadn’t nerfed Master of Hexes from the UA version as it really impacted how effective the Hexblade is at highly levels (all day Hexblades’s Curse vs 1 min per SR but can move it).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Don’t sell Shadow Blade short: it’s pretty fantastic with all day Advantage (dim light should be relatively easy to find in most campaigns) and base 2d8+mod damage: you’ll be using Elven Advantage a lot more with SB than with anything else short of Foresight. You can do a lot worse in terms of melee output.
Hexblade can rock Shadow Blade too, though.

[Fable Wright]

Bladesinger.

1. Access to Wish.
2. Access to Wall of Force.
3. Strong durability from high AC/burning spell slots to reduce damage.
4. Dragon's Breath + Find Familiar for strong non-action damage.
5. Can self-Haste.

[Tanarii]

I find Valor Bard to be the best Gish.

Blade singers I've only seen in action in AL, and despite the Internet claims to their power, they're not all that, mostly due to the wizard chassis. Even a non-hexblade single class warlock does it better.

[jaappleton]

It absolutely depends on what you want to be able to do with your spells.

If you want to be able to heal whatsoever, its Bard. I personally prefer Valor over Swords, but I see the argument for both.

I think Bladesinger has more benefits before level 10. But once you hit level 10 for Additional Magical Secrets on the Bard, you can get seriously silly with what you can do... Like Holy Weapon, or Swift Quiver, etc.

[RSP]

Hexblade can rock Shadow Blade too, though.

Yes they can, however, it can neither be their Pact Weapon nor benefit from the Hex Warrior feature, meaning they cannot use Extra Attack with it (nor will it be eligible for Cha as the attack stat, or Cha to damage with Lifedrinker). So it’s a very subpar choice for them compared to how much the BS benefits from it.

[sithlordnergal]

I'd say it's the Blades Bard. They have some pretty decent AC, the can add some extra damage onto their melee attacks, and their flourishes have some pretty neat effects. Not only that but they have access to the Bard spell list, Magical Secrets, Expertise, and Bardic Inspiration. The Magical Secrets alone is more then enough to tip the scales, but given you also have a psedo-Smite that gives you +10 to speed and Battlemaster-esque maneuvers I prefer it.

Bladesinger is fine, don't get me wrong, but they don't really have a way to make their attacks any better, be it with spells or anything else. And they can't cast and attack at the same time.

As for Hexblade...well, its a warlock. Single class warlocks are terrible. End of story.

[Spacehamster]

I'd say it's the Blades Bard. They have some pretty decent AC, the can add some extra damage onto their melee attacks, and their flourishes have some pretty neat effects. Not only that but they have access to the Bard spell list, Magical Secrets, Expertise, and Bardic Inspiration. The Magical Secrets alone is more then enough to tip the scales, but given you also have a psedo-Smite that gives you +10 to speed and Battlemaster-esque maneuvers I prefer it.

Bladesinger is fine, don't get me wrong, but they don't really have a way to make their attacks any better, be it with spells or anything else. And they can't cast and attack at the same time.

As for Hexblade...well, its a warlock. Single class warlocks are terrible. End of story.

How is hexblade terrible? They got great damage and short rest spell slots, medium armor and shield and CHA to any weapon making them SAD?

[Spiritchaser]

I like bladesinger, but with the caveat that actual melee damage is not great without shadow blade, and only adequate with it. As a wizard you likely have more effective options than shadow blade... though hey, if it’s fun...

The fact that you are a full wizard with all the wizard perks, spell list and so on keep it at the top, not the actual melee damage.

If actually doing melee damage is critical, VHuman hexblade with GWM/PAM running darkness or shadow of moil will do very well.

After level 12 or so, the half Elven version with Elven accuracy is likely better still.

[Spiritchaser]

As for Hexblade...well, its a warlock. Single class warlocks are terrible. End of story.

I... I’m not sure this is intended to be taken seriously...

[Talionis]

Hexblade is probably the highest damage. They get Smite, thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker Blade.

The others get serious defense bonuses. Bladesinger can cast Shadow Blade at will at 18.

Whisper Bard doesn’t get Extra Attack but it Attacks like Sneak Attack and booming Blade to do a lot of damage.

[Quietus]

I'm playing a Swords Bard in AL right now, and I can say... if I didn't have a two level Paladin dip, I would probably end up being very careful about how often I end up in melee, and my damage would be less than impressive. However, I always feel like I'm pulling my weight. I lead combat with a spell that shapes the battlefield and disables one or more enemies, and then wade in to start with the melee.

If I weren't adding that dip to get shields and smites, then I would probably have stuck with ranged, and used my extra attacks as a Flourish delivery mechanism to push enemies around. That, of course, would combo nicely with the possibility of stealing Swift Quiver at Bard 10, and grabbing the Sharpshooter feat. I feel like that would make a very effective character build, but I'd definitely be focusing Dex over Cha on that one.

I haven't even really looked at Bladesinger, so I can't say how it would fare offensively, but I think the Swords Bard would outpace it in weapon damage, and fall behind with spell damage. A Warlock would 100% do more damage if we aren't counting multiclassing though.

[Gignere]

The problem with BS isn’t that they couldn’t be made into effective melee, their problem is that the same resources that make them a good to great melee would end encounters.

Say you have a choice of upcasting SB or cast polymorph. Up casted SB would allow your damage to be competitive however a polymorph on a low hp party member can entirely turn a battle around.

This just becomes less of a choice between self buffing as spell levels increase. Hey I can level 5 spell buff myself and make me as good as a fighter or I can drop an animate object and solo beat most level appro

[Nagog]

Depends, as each one has their own focus. Bladesingers definitely have a higher focus on their spells (even with the AC bonus with Bladesong active, a d6 hit dice is not great for front line fighters), while Hexblades have a stronger focus on martial combat with a more limited spell pool (inherent in the way Pact Magic works). Bards of both colleges have a support focus, for obvious reasons.

All in all, I gotta go with Hexblade. I enjoy playing a Bladesinger for things like Vampiric touch and other Wizard spells that simply wouldn't see the light of day otherwise, but there really isn't much in any class that compares to Armor of Hexes, particularly against a BBEG.

[sithlordnergal]

I... I’m not sure this is intended to be taken seriously...

Semi-serious. The hexblade Subclass is amazing, I just find warlocks are not a strong class due to not having enough spell slots or invocations. This is especially true if you want to go Bladelock. If the Hexblade was tied to the Sorcerer and got Extra Attack naturally, then it would be far better.

As it is, because Warlock is such a poor class, it is only good for dips.

[Trickery]

Semi-serious. The hexblade Subclass is amazing, I just find warlocks are not a strong class due to not having enough spell slots or invocations. This is especially true if you want to go Bladelock. If the Hexblade was tied to the Sorcerer and got Extra Attack naturally, then it would be far better.

As it is, because Warlock is such a poor class, it is only good for dips.

Survey results tend to rate warlocks as high for popularity and moderate for power. They aren't Wizards or Bards, but they aren't Rangers or Fighters, either. They seem weak compared to other full casters because Wizards, Druids, Bards, and Clerics are so damned powerful. A warlock is more like a martial character in terms of their more limited casting, invocations, party role, and damage potential. But there's little question that they make one of if not the most effective and diverse "striker" classes.

[Reevh]

Survey results tend to rate warlocks as high for popularity and moderate for power. They aren't Wizards or Bards, but they aren't Rangers or Fighters, either. They seem weak compared to other full casters because Wizards, Druids, Bards, and Clerics are so damned powerful. A warlock is more like a martial character in terms of their more limited casting, invocations, party role, and damage potential. But there's little question that they make one of if not the most effective and diverse "striker" classes.

While their mechanics are fine, I think the popularity of warlocks is mostly due to the flavor. Having a patron is a pretty easy way to come up with a character hook.

[Talionis]

Warlock plateaus after level twelve. You have three level five slots that recharge on short rest, but if you are using them as Smites you run through them quickly.

Warlocks get access to only a single spell of the levels 6,7,8,9. Their list is small and terrible and doesn’t have many high level spells you’d want on a melee caster. The big problem here is lack of selection. The spells also don’t really progress being a melee combatant.

The amount of spells Wizards and Bards can select from is what pushes them at higher levels.

All of these classes could use some ability to not lose a whole turn buffing, such as Action Surge.

[JakOfAllTirades]

How is hexblade terrible? They got great damage and short rest spell slots, medium armor and shield and CHA to any weapon making them SAD?

Pay no attention to the Warlock haters. Any Bladelock is a good pick for "best gish" IMHO.

Hold Monster + Eldritch Smite = auto crit for 12d8 force damage, plus double whatever your pact weapon rolled. Repeat as long you've got spell slots left.

[Eriol]

Survey results tend to rate warlocks as high for popularity and moderate for power. They aren't Wizards or Bards, but they aren't Rangers or Fighters, either. They seem weak compared to other full casters because Wizards, Druids, Bards, and Clerics are so damned powerful. A warlock is more like a martial character in terms of their more limited casting, invocations, party role, and damage potential. But there's little question that they make one of if not the most effective and diverse "striker" classes.
I think a Warlock's effectiveness is directly proportional to the number of short (or long) rests the party gets. More rests, they seem more effective. Few rests, they seem weak because they are NOT an all-day-long-no-breaks class! Few are really.

Fascinating discussion overall on Gish though. An interesting constraint being "full" caster, and extra attack. Takes the Sorcadin and Pally out of the discussion, along with multiclasses, which is interesting. But great seeing those who have played and/or experienced more discussing it is great.

[XmonkTad]

I'm seeing a lot of good points in favor of the hexblade that may make me rethink my answer, but for now I'd give the title of overall strongest to Bladesinger. IMO bladesinger is decidedly S tier. Bladesong is excellent for defense and helps cover the hole left by only being able to wear light armor. Wizard full casting is second-to-none and has great ritual casting on top of it (something a blade lock will lack entirely and a Bard only gets a smattering of). Melee damage from the bladesinger seems to be the lowest, but they can make up for that with a large selection of blasting and CC spells.

All said and done, Bladesinger is my go-to full casting, extra attacking Gish.

[Trickery]

I'm seeing a lot of good points in favor of the hexblade that may make me rethink my answer, but for now I'd give the title of overall strongest to Bladesinger. IMO bladesinger is decidedly S tier. Bladesong is excellent for defense and helps cover the hole left by only being able to wear light armor. Wizard full casting is second-to-none and has great ritual casting on top of it (something a blade lock will lack entirely and a Bard only gets a smattering of). Melee damage from the bladesinger seems to be the lowest, but they can make up for that with a large selection of blasting and CC spells.

All said and done, Bladesinger is my go-to full casting, extra attacking Gish.

Heh. I said earlier that there was no right answer, and this is why. Hexblade hits harder and acts more like a traditional gish than the bard archetypes or Bladesinger, but I'd rather have a Bard or Wizard in a typical group since they can do more things and there are usually plenty of strikers already.

[Tallytrev813]

I'd throw my hat in with Moon Druid here, though i'd need more info. At level 20 i have a hard time not picking Moon Druid as their Capstone is just to awesome.

[vexedart]

IMO which tiers they're strong in.

Tier 1
Moon Druid level 2 bear mode

Hexblade PAM

Tier 2
Bladesinger shield,mirror images, bladesong, shadow blade

Tier 3
Swords/valor bard nova with find steed, tensers transformation and xbow expert or PAM

Hexblade blood drinker

Bladesinger crazy wizard spells

Tier 4
Moon Druid difficult to kill

Bladesinger has wish

Sword/valor bard nova is still good

[Trickery]

Tier 4
Moon Druid difficult to kill

Bladesinger has wish

Sword/valor bard nova is still good

And Hexblade has Foresight and can smite four times per short rest (by that level) with fifth level slots, plus all of the other spells and invocations they get. Hexblade is still crazy compared to any non-caster martial in tier 4.

But I do think you're right that mom druids are the strongest in tier 1. It's likely that's the strongest character period in tier 1, gish or otherwise, from a strict mechanical perspective.

[Spiritchaser]

And Hexblade has Foresight and can smite four times per short rest (by that level) with fifth level slots, plus all of the other spells and invocations they get. Hexblade is still crazy

Have you ever seen a hexblade live that long?

I mean quite apart from the fact that very few characters go that distance anyway...

Sure foresight on a hexblade is crazy good, especially if they had Elven accuracy... but there’s a certain play-style and... dare I say... world view that most hexblades seem to have that doesn’t lend itself to the greatest longevity.

[Trickery]

Have you ever seen a hexblade live that long?

I mean quite apart from the fact that very few characters go that distance anyway...

Sure foresight on a hexblade is crazy good, especially if they had Elven accuracy... but there’s a certain play-style and... dare I say... world view that most hexblades seem to have that doesn’t lend itself to the greatest longevity.

I'm speaking hypothetically. In practice, less than 5% of the game is played in tier 4, so we can mostly ignore that tier of play.

[vexedart]

Hexblades are good, but no offense, in t4 wish kind of trumps them. Hexblades are good throughout the game, but better mutliclassed I feel. But here’s an example why wish trumps pure hexblade.

Wish>simulacrum now I have a hex blade too, in a round no less.

Druids are up there with their near infinite hp. But even they die near an anti magic field, or tagged with enough disintegration beams.

Hexblades still get true polymorph and that let’s them be very powerful too. Just the lack of a few other tools I fee makes them feel subpar compared to tier 4 casters with wish.

[Trickery]

Hexblades are good, but no offense, in t4 wish kind of trumps them. Hexblades are good throughout the game, but better mutliclassed I feel. But here’s an example why wish trumps pure hexblade.

Wish>simulacrum now I have a hex blade too, in a round no less.

Druids are up there with their near infinite hp. But even they die near an anti magic field, or tagged with enough disintegration beams.

Hexblades still get true polymorph and that let’s them be very powerful too. Just the lack of a few other tools I fee makes them feel subpar compared to tier 4 casters with wish.

Well, it depends upon how your other full casters play. Just because Wizards can do the wish-simulacrum or true polymorph thing doesn't mean that they will. And if they do, it will invalidate a lot more people than just the Hexblade.

I wonder whether there's any appropriate challenge at any level that a Wizard could not conceivably solo, if he played perfectly.

[Gignere]

Well, it depends upon how your other full casters play. Just because Wizards can do the wish-simulacrum or true polymorph thing doesn't mean that they will. And if they do, it will invalidate a lot more people than just the Hexblade.

I wonder whether there's any appropriate challenge at any level that a Wizard could not conceivably solo, if he played perfectly.

Wizards are very squishy in T1. So not possible to solo encounters or at least not reliably. Send something low cr but immune to sleep and level 1 wizards would go squish.

[Gignere]

At level 17+ no one can really match Bladesong wizard as a gish. They can wish > simulacrum. Wish > find greater steed. Then share Tensers Transformation with said steed have simulacrum cast haste on the wizard and share it with the steed as well. Finally they can regular cast another simulacrum so this one has wish and they can wish buff both bladesinger and the mount to be able to do 1000 attacks in a single turn and again share with the steed. Who cares if simulacrum will never cast wish again because it can’t recover wish anyway.

Bladesong is just the cherry on top that makes them slightly better than all the other wizard at it.

[Misterwhisper]

Wizards are very squishy in T1. So not possible to solo encounters or at least not reliably. Send something low cr but immune to sleep and level 1 wizards would go squish.

Umm no.

While sleep is great it is not the only tool in the box.

If you mean encounters intended for one person they will do fine unless they are ambushed.

[Gignere]

Umm no.

While sleep is great it is not the only tool in the box.

If you mean encounters intended for one person they will do fine unless they are ambushed.

From the post it would appear the poster means party appropriate encounter for the level so a CR 1 encounter. So at level 1 a wizard probably cannot solo a cr 1 encounter.

[Trickery]

From the post it would appear the poster means party appropriate encounter for the level so a CR 1 encounter. So at level 1 a wizard probably cannot solo a cr 1 encounter.

Not reliably, no. But a level 1 wizard is already able to do some crazy stuff by that level's standards. Find Familiar and Unseen Servant can give the wizard plenty of extra actions to set traps or lay caltrops and oil before he's even spent a spell slot. So the class has potential to do a lot even then.

[Mongobear]

Something I thought of reading this--Does the Sorcerer need an Extra Attack Gish archetype?

I've been tempted to try a weird melee Sorcerer build focusing on spamming Quickened BB/GFB, but it always just feels bad.

They need something like the Bloodrager from Pathfinder, or just some kind of Origin which gets Extra Attack as their 6th level feature, but I can't think of something that makes sense.

[XmonkTad]

Something I thought of reading this--Does the Sorcerer need an Extra Attack Gish archetype?

I've been tempted to try a weird melee Sorcerer build focusing on spamming Quickened BB/GFB, but it always just feels bad.


I would not allow it personally, otherwise you're likely to see it combined with quickened BB/GFB sooner than the EK does. Also that would be a very strong archetype to combine with paladin.

[Gignere]

I would not allow it personally, otherwise you're likely to see it combined with quickened BB/GFB sooner than the EK does. Also that would be a very strong archetype to combine with paladin.

They played tested it with UA, favored soul. It became way too much when at 6th level you can quicken, haste and extra attack. Effectively getting 4 attacks and then still dip Paladin for crazy smites.

[Mongobear]

They played tested it with UA, favored soul. It became way too much when at 6th level you can quicken, haste and extra attack. Effectively getting 4 attacks and then still dip Paladin for crazy smites.

I don't see the issue, since you can only do that 2-4 times a day at full effectiveness, especially if you're throwing Smites into the mix.

Quickened BB/GFB + two weapon attacks is just a bit above what an EK can already do, and they get full plate and great swords. Sorcerers are stuck with no armor and simple weapons (unless this hypothetical Origin gained armor/weapon proficiencies, which it likely would, but unless it's Barbarian themed, it's likely not getting Heavy two-handed.)

Let's assume Sorc gets a Rapier from this archetype:

Level 6 Quickened BB + Action BB (1d8+1d8+2d8(rider) + 5) x2 + Haste Attack (1d8 + 5) = 55.5 average damage, requiring Sorc Points and a 3rd level slot

(Would BB even stack on the same target, being an identical spell effect? They could spread it to a secondary target, but I'm not sure about double tapping one guy twice)

EK 7 + Rapier (no Haste access, but we will assume he got it from a party member

Action BB (1d8+1d8+2d8(rider)+5) + BA Weapon Attack (1d8+5) + Haste Weapon Attack (1d8+5) = 41.5 average damage, expends no personal resources. Can Action Surge to become 64.5 average damage.

The Fighter could also pick up a Great sword and boost his average damage to 49 and Action Surge to 72.

The "Sorcerer Gish" can put out a bit more damage while his resources last, but relying on Quicken burns through them very fast, unless they're just burning spell slots into more SP.

I think this could be a workable path to explore if done right, it just needs to be balanced carefully.

[Trickery]

Sorcerer can already put out five attacks a round at level 7 if multiclassed with warlock. See warlock (hexblade) 2 / sorcerer (any) 5, haste, Quicken, agonizing blast + repelling blast, con saves (start sorcerer) + warcaster (sorcerer 4) + crossbow expert (variant human) to fire eldritch blasts into melee. Target a mob to whom you've applied Hexblade's curse, Quicken EB + EB, additional attack (longsword, CHA from hexblade) against same target. Push target up to 40 feet away from you while hitting it up to five times for 1d10+CHA+3, crit on a 19 or 20.

Factoring in crits and with no extra shenanigans, that's about 63 damage assuming hits. Figure hit chance of 60% and you're looking at closer to 40 actual damage, but spread among multiple targets (up to 5, but will reduce damage due to not getting Hexblade's curse). This is an effective combo.

Realistically, you'd probably use a shield and so one of the attacks would be 1d8, but longsword made the math cleaner.