[3.5] Eberron Necromancy and Lycanthropy

[TallerSpine]

Lycanthropes in Eberron are a bit more pervasive than in other settings. With twelve moons, there is a much greater chance of a full moon than in other settings. So, suppose a necromancer wants to create a process that will "reactivate" the certain lycanthropic abilities for their skeletons or zombies. What sort of ritual might I include? How would it interact with the various moons? Would it be something that I could allow player characters who want to play around with necromancy to investigate? This thread is meant to serve as a brainstorming session for me and other DMs who like the idea to come up with what this might look like.

I'm thinking the process might start with a lycanthrope spellcaster who becomes a lich. They miss their lycanthropic abilities and seek to use their magic to regain access to their "curse". How might they subvert it? Once they gain access to whatever version of "undead lycanthropy" they produce, they decide they miss their "pack" and want to create an "undead curse". Is it spreadable? Can it spread from undead to the living? How does it affect deathless? Can other undead "catch" it?

I think with some work, this could be a really interesting campaign concept, but I would love to see what the community can come up with. I will post my ideas as I come up with them.

[MisterKaws]

I think there's probably already a section somewhere there that clarifies it, since the Silver Flame have a bunch of lore documenting their hatred on ahapechangers.

[RedMage125]

I think there's probably already a section somewhere there that clarifies it, since the Silver Flame have a bunch of lore documenting their hatred on ahapechangers.

The Silvber Flame doesn't "hate shapechangers". That's not canon.

Keith baker did a Dragonshard article years ago, you can still find it archived on wotc's archive site. It's about the Lycanthropic Purge. From what I remember, the Purge was in response to a drastic change in lycanthropy. In 3.5e, only True lycanthropes can infect other humanoids. After this change, afflicted lycanthropes had the ability to spread the curse, and so it spread like wildfire. As you mentioned, Eberron has TWELVE moons, and only one needs to be full to trigger the curse (incidentally, more than one moon being full increases the DC to resist the change by +2 per moon). Worse, some evil lycanthropes (wererats especially) were intentionally afflicting people. Also remember that NPCs above 4th level are uncommon, so removing the curse from someone is very difficult. The Purge was a very real supernatural threat to Eberron, for as much as some people want to paint it as some kind of "witch hunt" that persecuted innocents, the Church tried very hard to protect innocents whenever possible. Furthermore, the CotSF never advocated violence against shifters, not even during the Purge. It was over-zealous lay people (the forebearers of the Pure Flame sect in Aundair) who did that.

OP, lycanthropes in Eberron are the exact opposite of "pervasive" compared to other settings. 200+ years after the Lycanthropic Purge, their numbers are only just now beginning to come to be on par with what a setting might consider "normal levels".

I don't see how to accomplish your undead thing by any kind of RAW, so it'll have to be DM's House Rule. And that could just be the ability to change from zombie/skeleton human to zombie/skeleton wolf. Keep in mind, however, that for a True Lycanthrope, that hybrid form IS their natural form. So an individual born a werewolf who became a wizard and then a lich would look like an undead, cadaverous wolf-man. Furthermore, the polymorph spell chain is a thing if this lich wants to change his form. Why does he want lycanthrope powers anyway?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Why would a Lich lose Lycanthropy? It seems like most forms of intelligent undead keep all special attacks and qualities of their original form, which would include everything from the Lycanthropy template.

Unintelligent undead do lose most or all of their special attacks and qualities. You could simulate Lycanthropy by tweaking the Swarmshifter template from Libris Mortis to turn into a single animal instead of a swarm, including the infection mechanic from Lycanthropy to make up for the lost utility and defenses. Maybe throw on Ravenous Creature (an undead only template from Dragon Compendium), too.

Alternatively, refluff the Blightspawned template (Unapproachable East?) into lycanthropy that persists after the death and reanimation of the host, remaining infectious but moderately unstable.

[Buufreak]

Somewhere there is a wotc article about an orc lycanthrope tribe, one of which becomes a vampire while retaining their lucan stuff. I will attempt to find it, but it's out there.

[CozJa]

And here you are! http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20070323a

[Buufreak]

And here you are! http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20070323a

What a friggin G.

[MisterKaws]

The Silvber Flame doesn't "hate shapechangers". That's not canon.

Keith baker did a Dragonshard article years ago, you can still find it archived on wotc's archive site. It's about the Lycanthropic Purge. From what I remember, the Purge was in response to a drastic change in lycanthropy. In 3.5e, only True lycanthropes can infect other humanoids. After this change, afflicted lycanthropes had the ability to spread the curse, and so it spread like wildfire. As you mentioned, Eberron has TWELVE moons, and only one needs to be full to trigger the curse (incidentally, more than one moon being full increases the DC to resist the change by +2 per moon). Worse, some evil lycanthropes (wererats especially) were intentionally afflicting people. Also remember that NPCs above 4th level are uncommon, so removing the curse from someone is very difficult. The Purge was a very real supernatural threat to Eberron, for as much as some people want to paint it as some kind of "witch hunt" that persecuted innocents, the Church tried very hard to protect innocents whenever possible. Furthermore, the CotSF never advocated violence against shifters, not even during the Purge. It was over-zealous lay people (the forebearers of the Pure Flame sect in Aundair) who did that.

OP, lycanthropes in Eberron are the exact opposite of "pervasive" compared to other settings. 200+ years after the Lycanthropic Purge, their numbers are only just now beginning to come to be on par with what a setting might consider "normal levels".

I don't see how to accomplish your undead thing by any kind of RAW, so it'll have to be DM's House Rule. And that could just be the ability to change from zombie/skeleton human to zombie/skeleton wolf. Keep in mind, however, that for a True Lycanthrope, that hybrid form IS their natural form. So an individual born a werewolf who became a wizard and then a lich would look like an undead, cadaverous wolf-man. Furthermore, the polymorph spell chain is a thing if this lich wants to change his form. Why does he want lycanthrope powers anyway?

The Church doesn't. They're goody two-shoes and all that. The problem is with the Templars, who killed even the good lycanthropes just on the off-chance their descendants might have become Evil and threatened people.

[RedMage125]

The Church doesn't. They're goody two-shoes and all that. The problem is with the Templars, who killed even the good lycanthropes just on the off-chance their descendants might have become Evil and threatened people.

Also not correct. They were offered exile in...I forget the name of the plane. I want to say...Thelanis? But another plane.

The ones killing innocents were the predecesors of the Pure Flame sect in Aundair.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Lammania is the plain

Yeah the amount of "poor widdle werewolves" arguments I come across in regards to this is staggering

There weren't good lycanthropes.

The Templar worked with shifters in Eldeen to track and hunt the lycanthropes. It was radical locals that killed shifters and changelings but again, there are NO good lycanthropes

Awakening lycanthropic traits in undead is possible the question is Daelkyr, Rakshasa lords or ancient shifter blood magic (perhaps manifest zone to Mabar)?

Edit: I am mistaken on the topic of good lycanthropes, there were in fact a few. Fewer than normal though

[hamishspence]

There weren't good lycanthropes.

The Templar worked with shifters in Eldeen to track and hunt the lycanthropes. It was radical locals that killed shifters and changelings but again, there are NO good lycanthropes


Werebears?

[Sir_Chivalry]

Werebears?

Yes. Not good in Eberron, especially during the Inquisition

Edit: I am wrong. There were a few

[hamishspence]

Yes. Not good in Eberron

Where's that stated?

A point is made that good werewolves exist in Eberron:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a

In Eberron, the alignment of a lycanthrope is not linked to her animal form. A werebear can be evil and a werewolf can be good.

though, during the 800 YK era, they became rare due to the "strengthening curse"


A shifter community may take risks to shelter a good lycanthrope, but no sensible person would knowingly welcome an evil werewolf into his home.

While no one knows how lycanthropy began, most know of the purge that almost brought it to an end. Around 800 YK, the power of the curse began to grow. The scholars of Aundair sought an answer in planar conjunctions or the influence of unknown fiends, while deep in the Eldeen Reaches shifter moonspeakers bemoaned the growing power of the unseen moon. Evil lycanthropes -- always the most numerous of the shapeshifters -- became even more vicious, and many good and neutral lycanthropes were corrupted and drawn down to the darkness. Afflicted lycanthropes gained the ability to pass the curse to their own victims, allowing lycanthropy to spread with terrifying speed. By the early years of the ninth century, packs of werewolves were roaming across western Khorvaire and wererats had established warrens beneath the greatest cities of the age. Farmers lived in fear of wolves that walked like humans. What was once a superstition used to frighten children was now horrifying reality.

The Purge

The templars of the Church of the Silver Flame had fought shapeshifters in the past. But the heart of the Church of the Silver Flame was in the nation of Thrane, far from the traditional Eldeen haunts of the lycanthropes. As the death toll mounted in Aundair and Breland, the cardinals grew increasingly concerned and the templars began to take a more active role in the defense of the western lands. The puritan scholars of the Silver Flame began to study their enemies. A number of factors colored this research:

The subjects of study were evil lycanthropes. Good lycanthropes were rare and reclusive to begin with, and many had fallen prey to the growing power of the curse. As a result, the puritans quickly assumed that all lycanthropes were inherently evil.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I poured over all my materials I had and you are correct. Also thank you for citing the relevant information, saves me reproducing it. I'll edit my previous posts

[hamishspence]

Furthermore, the CotSF never advocated violence against shifters, not even during the Purge. It was over-zealous lay people (the forebearers of the Pure Flame sect in Aundair) who did that.

I got the impression that senior figures in the Church, including Jolan Sol who declared the Purge in the first place, did, for the first 3 years.

Races of Eberron

p32:

War truly came to the shifters sixty years before the start of the Last War, when the Church of the Silver Flame began its crusade to destroy lycanthropes. At first, shifters were lumped in with lycanthropes, and quite a few fell in the first years of the crusade. Three years into the crusade, the Church recognized shifters as a separate species untouched by the taint of lycanthropy. Some believe that the Church took this step after making a deal with some shifters - a deal that required shifters to hunt down and reveal the locations of lycanthropes to the Church.

Though only a few shifters cooperated with the Church in this manner, all felt shame and guilt over these actions. Whatever people individually thought of the Church's crusade, the prejudice against lycanthropy spread throughout the continent's subconscious. Some of this taint became associated with shifters, as well, but moreover, people saw shifters as betrayers of their own kind, despite the limited number of incidents and the fact that shifters and lycanthropes have a distant connection at best.

Because of this, the crusade affected the thoughts and lives of every shifter in Khorvaire to some extent, leaving a lingering distrust between shifters and members of other races that still affects relations today.
p34:

Recent shifter history has been shaped and tainted by the terrible zealotry of the Church of the Silver Flame. When the Church began its great crusade to rid the world of lycanthropy, it made little distinction between the rare and powerful true lycanthropes and their more civilized offshoots, the shifters. Although the shifters had long since become their own race, their ability to shift their forms, the trappings of their moon worship, and their relatively small numbers made them ideal targets of the Church's zeal. Compared to true lycanthropes, which are decidedly difficult to track and exceedingly powerful, shifters were easy for the Church to find and attack. It's little surprise, then, that most of the Church's early "successes" were at the expense of the shifter race.

The Church used its crusade against the shifters as proof that its crusade against lycanthropy was right and destined for success. Although it reversed its view on shifters in the early years of the crusade and later acknowledged that shifters are a separate race, the damage had already been done. Some of the Church's less than honorable leaders used the crusade as an excuse to pursue private vendettas against shifter communities or to gather great profit at the expense of shifter lives. In war-torn Khorvaire, it's unlikely that such pain and suspicion will find healing or resolution soon.

[Sir_Chivalry]

It's worth noting that the information in Races of Eberron isn't in line with Keith Baker's vision of what happened.

Shifter cooperation was present and the shifters were in fact some of Khorvaire's premiere lycan hunters

But the Keeper of the Flame was likely very anti-shifter and anti-changeling too. They're Galifer's eternal scapegoat

[hamishspence]

It's worth noting that the information in Races of Eberron isn't in line with Keith Baker's vision of what happened.

It doesn't outright contradict anything in his Dragonshard article, either. Though he pins a lot of the blame for shifter massacres on evil lycanthropes setting them up:



Clever lycanthropes fanned the puritans' paranoia toward the shifters, and these mistrustful folk massacred hundreds of shifters before someone could prove to them that shifters did not carry the curse. While some of the shifters later fought alongside the templars, many have never forgiven the Silver Flame -- and, indeed, humanity -- for these deaths.

[TallerSpine]

OP, lycanthropes in Eberron are the exact opposite of "pervasive" compared to other settings. 200+ years after the Lycanthropic Purge, their numbers are only just now beginning to come to be on par with what a setting might consider "normal levels".

I don't see how to accomplish your undead thing by any kind of RAW, so it'll have to be DM's House Rule. And that could just be the ability to change from zombie/skeleton human to zombie/skeleton wolf. Keep in mind, however, that for a True Lycanthrope, that hybrid form IS their natural form. So an individual born a werewolf who became a wizard and then a lich would look like an undead, cadaverous wolf-man. Furthermore, the polymorph spell chain is a thing if this lich wants to change his form. Why does he want lycanthrope powers anyway?

According to the Lycanthrope entry, when a Lycanthrope dies, they revert to their base humanoid or giant form. While not stated, it appears their curse ends with their death (although I cannot confirm this, as I do not have my copy of the Monster Manual on me, it is not in the SRD, and I am going off my memory on the topic).


Why would a Lich lose Lycanthropy? It seems like most forms of intelligent undead keep all special attacks and qualities of their original form, which would include everything from the Lycanthropy template.

The Monster Manual (IIRC) entry for Lycanthrope implies strongly (if not saying so outright) that a lycanthrope's curse ends with death. I know they revert to their humanoid/giant form when they perish.


Somewhere there is a wotc article about an orc lycanthrope tribe, one of which becomes a vampire while retaining their lucan stuff. I will attempt to find it, but it's out there.

Very cool, thank you (and thanks to CozJa for finding the link!)


Lammania is the plain

Yeah the amount of "poor widdle werewolves" arguments I come across in regards to this is staggering

There weren't good lycanthropes.

The Templar worked with shifters in Eldeen to track and hunt the lycanthropes. It was radical locals that killed shifters and changelings but again, there are NO good lycanthropes

Awakening lycanthropic traits in undead is possible the question is Daelkyr, Rakshasa lords or ancient shifter blood magic (perhaps manifest zone to Mabar)?

Edit: I am mistaken on the topic of good lycanthropes, there were in fact a few. Fewer than normal though

All excellent ideas! What sort of traits might be able to be retained? I'm looking for ideas that may not be canon originally, but a cool houserule / setting to try.

[MisterKaws]

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A lot of conflicting information on those different sources. Basically, one side blaming each other, probably because one of the co-authors liked shapechangers a bit too much. Better left as a subjective choice for the DM I guess.


According to the Lycanthrope entry, when a Lycanthrope dies, they revert to their base humanoid or giant form. While not stated, it appears their curse ends with their death (although I cannot confirm this, as I do not have my copy of the Monster Manual on me, it is not in the SRD, and I am going off my memory on the topic).

The Monster Manual (IIRC) entry for Lycanthrope implies strongly (if not saying so outright) that a lycanthrope's curse ends with death. I know they revert to their humanoid/giant form when they perish.

No. This is simply the standard ruling for Alternate Form: whenever a creature dies, it changes to base form. You can do whatever Lich/Bone Creature/Corpse Creature/Gravetouched Ghoul Lycanthrope all you want. Also the far easier Necropolitan Lycanthrope.

[hamishspence]

A lot of conflicting information on those different sources.

Considering that Keith Baker was one of the authors of Races of Eberron - it seems likely that the portrayal of the Church of the Silver Flame's behaviour in that, is consistent with his own conception of it.

[MisterKaws]

Considering that Keith Baker was one of the authors of Races of Eberron - it seems likely that the portrayal of the Church of the Silver Flame's behaviour in that, is consistent with his own conception of it.

And if we consider that, then we have a plot hole, though maybe an intentional one. These conflicting views, of one side saying all Lycanthropes are evil and the other side pushing the evil onto the Templars, do make a very interesting plot hook for a politics/religion-focused campaign.

[hamishspence]

Keith never said all lycanthropes in Eberron were evil in the first place. He said that good and neutral ones were rare - especially during the Purge era, when many of the good ones became evil.

[Sir_Chivalry]

When in doubt I turn to the articles of Dragonshards and on Keith's own blog to answer how the man himself would do it. Is it always the answer other people want? No.


http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-lycanthropes/
http://keith-baker.com/lycanthropes/
http://keith-baker.com/eberron-flashback-good-and-evil/
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a

Lycanthropy is a supernatural evil, meaning it's right up there with demons for the Silver Flame's mandate. It's not a prejudice against shifters (which does exist in world too) that informs the Purge, but the sudden upswing in numbers, the direct attacks on border regions and the changing of the nature of the curse (which previously needed afflicted targets to breed and produce natural lycanthropes who could pass the disease on) along with a message from Bel Shalor The Voice in the Flame telling the Keeper to order the Inquisition (so he says).

It is left to the DM when the switch from Inqusition (guerilla war with dangerous outnumbering monsters) to Purge (templar clean up, go home and the locals continue the hunt afterwards) happens. The Templar were never out to kill every lycanthrope, they are charged with protection from supernatural evil. They don't march into the Demon Wastes despite knowing there's thousands of fiends there, do they? But the difference between "alright the curse has shifted again and we've reduced their numbers enough that we don't need to use our resources to scour the land anymore, let's go home" and "I still live in this province and I know there's a hermit who lives nearby and he's shaggy and belligerent and I think he might be a werebear and I'm scared for my family" is where the difference in reactions and how the Inquisition was fought come out.

Also it lasted 48 years. That's a lot of time for people to get complacent, or jaded, for entire generations to pass living in constant fear of the lycanthrope attacks, and then to be told, when they're winning finally "alright lads, we're going home, you all keep up the farming and such"

But I'd stress that the side saying the Templar were evil is the Eldeen Shifters for the most part. There's a noted werewolf of good alignment in the Eldeen Reaches, there's a few wereboars, weretigers and werebears scattered around Western Khorvaire. There isn't a largely urban group that feels bad for the lycanthropes. There's few academics in Aundair (especially) or Zilargo or Sharn or Karrnath weeping over the perceived loss of life of the shifters, let alone the lycanthropes.

And here is where Keith Baker would likely say "except you, of course". If YOU as a player want to be the person who looks at history and sees injustice, do it. You're the hero, and you should be an important force for change in an Eberron game. If you as a DM want to change how the war was fought (because the Inquisition was a war) then by all means tell the story you feel is best.

Edit: As an aside, if you want a game with politics and religion, while the Lycanthropic Inquisition is a cool one, may I suggest the religious situations in Thaliost (former Aundairan capital and home to the Pure Flame, radical Silver Flame acolytes, now controlled by Thrane) or Karrnath (the Seekers went from weird cultists to an important part of the national strategy, and many of the hardline Karrnathi didn't like it. Now they're the scapegoat for the famine, the disease and not winning the war)? Both see direct results of the Last War affecting or affected by religion, with plenty of opportunities to settle old scores and explore a changing cultural landscape

[hamishspence]

The Templar were never out to kill every lycanthrope

The impression I get is - that was their original mandate:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a

Jolan Sol saw the situation as an opportunity to strengthen the influence of the Silver Flame in Aundair. In 832 YK he proclaimed that the curse of lycanthropy corrupted the soul itself. This announcement spread fear throughout Breland and Aundair and strengthened the resolve of the armies of the Flame, who ventured west with the goal of eradicating the plague from the face of Eberron.


http://keith-baker.com/lycanthropes/
The idea of the Silver Flame eliminating lycanthropy wasn’t something we saw as the Salem Witch Trials; it was more akin to wiping out smallpox, if smallpox turned people into murderers.

[White Blade]

What's not really being understood here is that the question of Good-Evil is actually not the reason for hatred of Lycanthropy. There are many evil humans in Eberron, being evil is not a crime, and evil humans are frequently productive, intelligent members of society. The problem for the Silver Flame is not that there are some "good" strains of Lycanthropy that should be permitted. There are no good strains of lycanthropy. Lycanthropy, like Vampirism, is a supernatural evil - Not lycanthropes, lycanthropy. If someone is infected with Lawful Good WereX strain, they become someone totally different then they were before - Even if they turn into a Mother Bear, the old personality is erased by the disease. This is why even good-aligned strains of lycanthropes are feared and hated, why even a hundred and twenty years later the standing position of the Church is that only exile or cure are acceptable alternatives to simply killing lycanthropes. An afflicted lycanthrope is always subsuming a real, human personality and a natural lycanthrope is always threatening the possibility of doing this to others.

To quote the Dragonshard article:
Those afflicted by the disease suffer a dramatic change in personality, regardless of the alignment of the victim before and after the curse. As a result, lycanthropes of all types have always been feared. Under the best circumstances, the bite of a lycanthrope means a loss of identity; in the worst, it can make a good person into a vicious killer.

Lycanthropy is a case of contagious personality, in particular of contagious wild animal personality that does not like human civilization. Whereas good aligned lycanthropes might conscientiously avoid spreading the disease or at least just fail to do so, evil lycanthropes are not going to be similarly inclined. These evil lycanthropes aimed to get rid of their primary rivals for space and territory, aka human civilization, and expand their own racial presence.

In this context, it's important to delineate what that means for the various ways the purge went wrong:
1) In the context of Shifters, the Templars were just wrong. They thought shifters were carriers of the disease or sympathizers with the disease, and in no sense were they. This was not part of the Church's orders, but it is the Church's responsibility.
2) In the context of good-aligned and neutral aligned lycanthropes, they absolutely were following the Church's order. These actions are certainly uncomfortable, even wrong in many instances. They were ordered to do this by the Church, clearing out the supernatural evil of lycanthropy by any means necessary. But it is clear that these were minority cases, as the tolerable strains of lycanthropy never reproduced as virulently as the intolerable strains did, generally preferring to retreat from humanoids as opposed to fighting them.