The spellplague is in a decade, what do?

[rmnimoc]

I was reading a forgotten realms story and I got a bit curious as to what people would do in a specific situation.

The situation is this: You wake up in a new human body in Toril. The year is 1375 DR, meaning in just ten years everything is going to get fourth editioned when the spellplague happens. The previous owner of your body went through the effort of learning the basics for the class(es) of your choice and is effectively level three. That said you can assume your body was, like everyone else in canon Toril, poorly optimized. Think the wizard with the starting feat Toughness from the PHB. Their choices are better to have than nothing, but definitely not anything that'll help you that much.

So, you've got ten years in the world to amass all the power you can before fourth edition nerfs literally everything and you're left with as much of your power as the new system allows. Of course, if in those ten years you can manage to stop Mystra from getting ganked (again) or otherwise stop the spellplague (even the overdiety Ao couldn't so that might be a bit above your level) you might be able to prolong the age of greatness that was the Third (and a half) Edition. So, what do?

[Buufreak]

Well, unlike 3, 4 has a canon, RAW means of achieving godhood. I'd work towards that.

[Malroth]

Buy a scroll of plane shift and escape to greyhawk or eberron

[legomaster00156]

Realize that 4th edition wasn't a bad system and that edition wars are beneath me.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Get to epic within a couple of days. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587253-You-get-Isekai-d&p=23892158&viewfull=1#post23892158) That way you can survive in the utter deathworld that is Abeir-Toril.

Take the Loyalty's Reward feat (from Kingdoms of Kalamar). Use it to craft for yourself the following feat:

Spellplague Immunity
Benefit: You are immune to the normal effects of the spellplague. If you are ever exposed to the spellplague, your body starts generating your own internal weave and you can use magic normally without it.
Normal: The spellplague will ruin you and everything you hold dear.

Then take Leadership and recruit all the magic users who suit your ethos. They will likewise be protected from the horrid curse that is 4th Edition the spellplague.

[edit] With luck, the gods will petition to become your followers, including Ao. Then you can ask him to do you a number of favors, such as raising you to a high divine rank and dismantling the horrible Wall of the Faithless.

[rmnimoc]

Realize that 4th edition wasn't a bad system and that edition wars are beneath me.

It's not so much edition wars here as the fact that the world in fourth edition is weaker than the world in 3rd edition, just like 3rd is weaker than second. That's both in lore (everyone is weaker because of what happened) and mechanics (3.5 is broken). Also the world massively gets wrecked by the spellplague and the wailing years and pretty much everything is crippled for a while when two separate worlds fuse and unfuse.

What do you do in a dangerous world that's about to become far more dangerous in such a way that most of the power you've got will become worthless? Magic is the path to power most people think of in D&D, but when the spellplague happens the entire weave basically shuts down and all magic just dies for a little while. Even Ao couldn't do anything to help and he was as far beyond the gods as they were beyond mortals.

If you want to survive the spellplague (provided you can't stop it) I'd think you'd want something caster-y that isn't magic, so psionics seems like the best bet. Spell-to-Power Erudite would probably be the best choice, since you could keep all the spells as things that don't require the weave (Toril's counterpart (Abeir) had little to no magic because it didn't have the weave, but it still had psionics). Since most of the problems with the spellplague are because of the weave screwing up (also the standard end of the world stuff: gods dying, realms collapsing, blue fire from beyond space killing or corrupting everything it touched, earthquakes, tsunamis, parts of the world just abruptly ceasing to exist, a third of all casters just dying on the spot, etc) then not needing the weave to do all the magic things that need to be done can only be a benefit. Sadly the standard "hide in a demiplane" strategy gets a lot riskier when actual real planes are crashing into each other somehow (though it did work for some people), so I'd probably have to look into a plan B for the whole "surviving the apocalypse" thing. That said, if you can pull it off then as a caster that doesn't need the weave you'd be in a much better position than any arcane or divine caster after all that is over since you won't be affected by the new changes to the weave that weakened basically every wizard who survived the spellplague.

Of course, all that still requires surviving the spellplague.

[tiercel]

The same thing I do every Forgotten Realms campaign, Pinky:

TEAR DOWN THE WALL OF THE FAITHLESS!

Er.

"Get out of Dodge" seems a reasonable option, honestly.

[Vizzerdrix]

Switch over to pathfinder (finally) and learn to make poppets and use fire poi. Maybe reinvent shapesand.

[heavyfuel]

Go Cleric. Chaos shuffle myself ASAP. Clerics were the strongest class in 3.5, were still powerhouses in 4e, and are powerhouses in 5e.

I'm gonna be fine.

Druids would also be an option, but I'd rather not be a tree hugger extreme

[GrayDeath]

If the above suggested Feat works, do that (thanks!).

If AO/The GM are ***** and it doesnt, simply go find Mystra, get her to set up a Zone of truth, tell her m EXACTLY how she is going to die (again), and in thnaks for avoiding that get Ao to make me the God of Avoided Apocalypses, good Timing, and important Knowledge. ^^

[Quertus]

Yeah, Um, 10 years sounds like plenty of time to get out of Dodge. That would be my #1 concern.

Before that, though, I would likely take a moment to mourn the poor soul who died for me to be there. I might even investigate who used which monkey's paw to wish something like "I W~ someone understood…".

Also, rebuild the body. I hear Trollblooded is nice this time of year.

As I don't really know much about the FR transition to 4e, I wouldn't be much help there. I'd just flee, so that those schmucks left behind could say, "he's in a better place now".

Oh, and on the off chance that the sap whose body I stole is the one responsible for the wish, I suppose I might extend the offer to leave to their family.

[Psychoalpha]

People be hating on the Wall of the Faithless. Is it just a general contempt for the idea of characters having to put faith in something greater than themselves, when common wisdom is that there is no such thing, assuming the right degree of optimization? ;D

Pretty sure Kelemvor already tried doing away with the Wall of the Faithless and it didn't work out so well. The cosmology is what it is, and the Wall serves a purpose, so all this 'tear down that wall!' stuff just seems weird.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

People be hating on the Wall of the Faithless. Is it just a general contempt for the idea of characters having to put faith in something greater than themselves, when common wisdom is that there is no such thing, assuming the right degree of optimization? ;D

Pretty sure Kelemvor already tried doing away with the Wall of the Faithless and it didn't work out so well. The cosmology is what it is, and the Wall serves a purpose, so all this 'tear down that wall!' stuff just seems weird.It forces you to be a cultist and worship monsters that are petty and cruel by nature. And if you dare to rail against them and don't become an abomination yourself (see: any number of undead monstrosities), you will be punished in an utterly horrific way until your very soul is devoured through all-consuming pain or poached by the demonic hordes.

"Pledge your soul to us and grovel, or we'll torture you horribly for the rest of your existence." I'm not sure how you can't see why that's utterly monstrous with even a passing glance.

[tiercel]

Pretty sure Kelemvor already tried doing away with the Wall of the Faithless and it didn't work out so well. The cosmology is what it is, and the Wall serves a purpose, so all this 'tear down that wall!' stuff just seems weird.

The “logic” for why Kelemvor “had” to put back the Wall, IIRC, seemed a bit specious; Good people always have more to look forward to in their afterlives than Evil ones. The Wall just effectively adjusts, from an afterlife point of view, “Evil” to include “didn’t genuinely devote yourself to a self-interested monster who wants to make you into another Scooby Snack.”


It forces you to be a cultist and worship monsters that are petty and cruel by nature. And if you dare to rail against them and don't become an abomination yourself (see: any number of undead monstrosities), you will be punished in an utterly horrific way until your very soul is devoured through all-consuming pain or poached by the demonic hordes.

"Pledge your soul to us and grovel, or we'll torture you horribly for the rest of your existence." I'm not sure how you can't see why that's utterly monstrous with even a passing glance.

This.

[Psychoalpha]

It forces you to be a cultist and worship monsters that are petty and cruel by nature.

Some of them are, some of them aren't. Describing entire swaths of deities, and Faerun has a pretty ridiculous number of Gods, like that says more about your biases than their actions. You're basically spoiled for choices, and there's no particular evidence of most being petty or cruel unless they're... you know, gods of pettiness and cruelty.


And if you dare to rail against them and don't become an abomination yourself (see: any number of undead monstrosities), you will be punished in an utterly horrific way until your very soul is devoured through all-consuming pain or poached by the demonic hordes.

Well, sure. But, I mean, at that point you're basically railing against the idea of global warming and actively choosing to contribute to its effects as a means of protest, it's just that in Faerun you end up having to actually pay the price for those choices instead of just foisting them off on future generations (but also that).

Like I said, the Cosmology is what it is, and in Faerun it dictates that the Gods are both tied to their portfolio and responsible for the upkeep of its contents, as well as directly requiring the worship of mortals. When a God dies or otherwise fades away, its portfolio is in turmoil and Faerun suffers (physically or metaphysically depending on the portfolio in question) as a result, unless another God snaps it up quickly enough... which almost inevitably leads to conflict between other Gods, which can lead to more Gods dying, rinse and repeat until it settles.

The mortals of Faerun and the Gods of Faerun are bound in a symbiotic relationship, and either party not doing their part in that relationship puts everyone else at risk. We've been shown, as has Faerun as a whole over time, the consequences of either side messing with that relationship (and it's usually mortals who suffer more greatly, obviously). Those who choose to rail against the Gods aren't 'daring' anything, they're putting their own selfish pride first and saying that since they personally don't care for (or hate or whatever else) the Gods then they don't care if others end up suffering for it.

I feel empathy for the Faithless the same way I feel empathy (or sympathy) for people who believed the lead and asbestos regulations in our world were all just a price fixing hoax and so continued to use lead paint and asbestos insulation on the sly for years. Except, unfortunately, those people didn't get mortared into a big wall with mold, or whatever. ;D

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Some of them are, some of them aren't. Describing entire swaths of deities, and Faerun has a pretty ridiculous number of Gods, like that says more about your biases than their actions. You're basically spoiled for choices, and there's no particular evidence of most being petty or cruel unless they're... you know, gods of pettiness and cruelty.{Scrubbed}

Ao is vile, and he actively encourages psychotic mass-murderers and worse to flourish. Destroying him would be a benefit to the universe at large. And his regime (including the "Good" gods, which are also just nasty, from everything I've seen) needs to be destroyed.


Well, sure. But, I mean, at that point you're basically railing against the idea of global warming and actively choosing to contribute to its effects as a means of protest, it's just that in Faerun you end up having to actually pay the price for those choices instead of just foisting them off on future generations (but also that).

Like I said, the Cosmology is what it is, and in Faerun it dictates that the Gods are both tied to their portfolio and responsible for the upkeep of its contents, as well as directly requiring the worship of mortals. When a God dies or otherwise fades away, its portfolio is in turmoil and Faerun suffers (physically or metaphysically depending on the portfolio in question) as a result, unless another God snaps it up quickly enough... which almost inevitably leads to conflict between other Gods, which can lead to more Gods dying, rinse and repeat until it settles.

The mortals of Faerun and the Gods of Faerun are bound in a symbiotic parasitic relationship, and either party not doing their part in that relationship puts everyone else at risk. We've been shown, as has Faerun as a whole over time, the consequences of either side messing with that relationship (and it's usually mortals who suffer more greatly, obviously). Those who choose to rail against the Gods aren't 'daring' anything, they're putting their own selfish pride first and saying that since they personally don't care for (or hate or whatever else) the Gods then they don't care if others end up suffering for it.Mortals are chattel. The gods don't care about them; they just use them for their own power. The Evil gods obviously want everyone to suffer, and the Good ones don't actually make life better, else it would be better. They even expect mortals to take care of themselves, which is why they push mortals into doing things as their servants, rather than actually making the multiverse a better place outside of their own domains (which is mostly for their own benefit anyway).

They are selfish and petty and either actively engage in cruelty or allow it to happen, without lifting a finger to help.

Railing against the gods? That's just seeing them for what they are and for what they do. Just because they have power doesn't mean they are using that power responsibly, or care for anything but themselves.

Else the Wall of the Faithless would never have existed in the first place. Offering actual love and acceptance and protection should be enough. "Punishment" in this case would be not getting said benefits. Telling people to grovel or be tortured for eternity just shows what kind of monsters they really are.


I feel empathy for the Faithless the same way I feel empathy (or sympathy) for people who believed the lead and asbestos regulations in our world were all just a price fixing hoax and so continued to use lead paint and asbestos insulation on the sly for years. Except, unfortunately, those people didn't get mortared into a big wall with mold, or whatever. ;D"Worship me or die horribly" is hardly a hallmark of someone who actually cares for those they parasitize upon.

[Malphegor]

Forgotten realms self insert checklist:

Be nonmagically immortal.

Destroy all afterlives. They are not my cup of tea.

Destroy or control all gods. They are a wildcard and not to be trusted.

Figure out planar travel to one of the Earths that the various human slaves come from. Even if I’m heading to a Earth where Egypt never stopped expanding or whatever, it is better than the Realms. If I can find Ed Greenwood I am piggybacking onto him to get myself to an Earth one way or another.

Be a psionicist if I see the opportunity to learn from them. Psionics is one of the more reliable methods to have ‘magic’ I feel.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Forgotten realms self insert checklist:

Be nonmagically immortal.

Destroy all afterlives. They are not my cup of tea.

Destroy or control all gods. They are a wildcard and not to be trusted.

Figure out planar travel to one of the Earths that the various human slaves come from. Even if I’m heading to a Earth where Egypt never stopped expanding or whatever, it is better than the Realms. If I can find Ed Greenwood I am piggybacking onto him to get myself to an Earth one way or another.

Be a psionicist if I see the opportunity to learn from them. Psionics is one of the more reliable methods to have ‘magic’ I feel.I like you. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGa1rhozTs4&feature=youtu.be&t=17)

[Ramza00]

People be hating on the Wall of the Faithless. Is it just a general contempt for the idea of characters having to put faith in something greater than themselves, when common wisdom is that there is no such thing, assuming the right degree of optimization? ;D

Pretty sure Kelemvor already tried doing away with the Wall of the Faithless and it didn't work out so well. The cosmology is what it is, and the Wall serves a purpose, so all this 'tear down that wall!' stuff just seems weird.

It prevents discovery, forcing you to be loyal to 1 thing or many things without the process of self-discovery that is so pivotal to so many hero stories.

Why have Luke have to struggle before choosing faithfully I am a Jedi when the outcome of the choice is preordained? Part of many hero myths is being a greenseer / master of two worlds. And faith is tied to doubt in many philosophies such as Kierkegaard, turning faith into something that the wall of the faithless is antithetical to Kierkegaard's ideas and thus you are restricting options to the player. When faith is given definite form and definite consequences you reduce wonder in your setting and make it something mechanical.

[Vizzerdrix]

It forces you to be a cultist and worship monsters that are petty and cruel by nature. And if you dare to rail against them and don't become an abomination yourself (see: any number of undead monstrosities), you will be punished in an utterly horrific way until your very soul is devoured through all-consuming pain or poached by the demonic hordes.

"Pledge your soul to us and grovel, or we'll torture you horribly for the rest of your existence." I'm not sure how you can't see why that's utterly monstrous with even a passing glance.

I highly suspect you could easily win over Gond by inventing legos.

[Calthropstu]

Planeshift to golarion. Retrain levels to pf. Achieve real power. Return after spellplague and obliterate everything.

Alternatively, Planeshift/teleport to earth, travel through time and stop 4e from ever existing.

[Bronk]

Easiest way? I’d probably head to Waterdeep, sign on with a Spelljammer crew, and set myself up somewhere else.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Easiest way? I’d probably head to Waterdeep, sign on with a Spelljammer crew, and set myself up somewhere else.I'd probably do this after I took the above feat, subjected myself to the spellplague, transplanted myself into a new body (to quarantine the old one), and then be on my way.

[Telok]

I feel that it says something about how screwed up FR is that almost every single response to the "You end up in Forgotten Realms. What do you do?" threads has, for more than a decade now, come down to 'escape FR as soon as possible' or 'kill all gods and replace them with something better'. Of course I also think that it says something about D&D that as the editions progress it keeps becoming both more important, and less possible, to achieve either of those goals.

[tiercel]

Some of them are, some of them aren't. Describing entire swaths of deities, and Faerun has a pretty ridiculous number of Gods, like that says more about your biases than their actions. You're basically spoiled for choices, and there's no particular evidence of most being petty or cruel unless they're... you know, gods of pettiness and cruelty.

I think you’re missing the point here: it’s not the portfolios of the gods or whether they have a tinfoil “Good” halo hanging over their heads, it’s that all the gods seem totally okay with the onus of worship being 100% on mortals under the threat of Hells-like punishment, rather than the gods having to actually earn said worship. It’s a classic mafioso protection racket (“gee, mister, that’s a real nice SOUL ya got there, be a real SHAME if somethin’ were to HAPPEN to it, knowhaddaImean?” *rubs fingers together*), and being the God of Happy Butterflies That Vomit Rainbows doesn’t make you any less a mafioso if you’re willingly part of the racket.


Like I said, the Cosmology is what it is, and in Faerun it dictates that the Gods are both tied to their portfolio and responsible for the upkeep of its contents, as well as directly requiring the worship of mortals. When a God dies or otherwise fades away, its portfolio is in turmoil and Faerun suffers (physically or metaphysically depending on the portfolio in question) as a result

Not always (how many times has some version of Mystra died now? You’d think that the literal Goddess of Magic could do better, given that GitP canon for optimized mortal high-level wizards is “basically invincible”, but magic doesn’t fail every time she does) — and perhaps more to the point, not for always — didn’t Ao decide this was supposed to be the case, but then instead of “and so you gods better do your jobs well” instituted “dance, mortal monkeys, dance!” as the determining factor?

Also, you’d think that the entire point of having an Overdeity would be to protect the sphere against events no deity could handle, but with the Spellplague, Ao was too busy giggling in a corner somewhere because, y’know, plot, edition change. I would say that Ao is nothing more but a rebranded Lord of the Ninth with the “-smodeus” filed off, but by canon Asmodeus at least defeated Zargon mid-pantheonicide (if for his own reasons) . Ao seems either completely useless or even more maleficient than the Lord of the Hells.


The mortals of Faerun and the Gods of Faerun are bound in a symbiotic relationship

“Parasitic” is the word here; non-believing mortals get thrown into a metaphysical meat-grinder for all eternity, whereas lousy gods can rest assured that their mafioso protection racket will keep them feasting on endless tasty mortal snacks as long as they can remain not-assassinated.


I feel empathy for the Faithless the same way I feel empathy (or sympathy) for people who believed the lead and asbestos regulations in our world were all just a price fixing hoax and so continued to use lead paint and asbestos insulation on the sly for years. Except, unfortunately, those people didn't get mortared into a big wall with mold, or whatever. ;D

Except that lead and asbestos are objectively, inherently harmful, whereas FR cosmology works the way it does because Ao said so and all the gods are basically OK enough with being a protection racket.





Ao is vile, and he actively encourages psychotic mass-murderers and worse to flourish. Destroying him would be a benefit to the universe at large. And his regime (including the "Good" gods, which are also just nasty, from everything I've seen) needs to be destroyed.

"Worship me or die horribly" is hardly a hallmark of someone who actually cares for those they parasitize upon.


I’m not sure I could play in an FR campaign a character who knew about Ao/the Wall of the Faithless and wasn’t ultimately on a quest to defeat the Epic-level Mafia.

[Jack_McSnatch]

I have a DM who is downright OBSESSED with running things during the spellplague. How do I explain to him that the canon transition from 3.5 to 4 is ****ty and shouldn't be the setting for a 3.5 game?

[rmnimoc]

Just throwing this bit into the "the gods all suck" ring after seeing the thing about Mystra, every time she gets interfered with Toril had some sort of major issue pop up, which might be because she's legitimately working her hardest to keep bad things from happening and everyone and their dog keeps screwing her over while she's busy. Trying to regulate magic so the entire realm doesn't get screwed over while also trying to fix the damage a big old war was doing to the weave? A wizard decides he can do it better and takes all her power, immediately using his new vast cosmic knowledge to learn that the situation was more complicated than he thought and Mystra was already in the middle of fixing it and he's may have accidentally-ed magic, forcing Mysta to give her life to keep things from getting as bad as they otherwise would. Trying to regulate magic so the entire realm doesn't get screwed over? Ao decides the gods don't care about their mortals enough or something after a pair of idiots tried to usurp him so he chucks them all down to Toril to play mortal for a while, screwing up what Mystra was doing, messing up magic. When Mystra tried to get back to work she got explosion-punched by the security guard at the door and second edition happened. Trying to regulate magic so the entire realm doesn't get screwed over while also making sure that even if she dies again magic will be fine? Shar gets Cyric to gank her, then breaks all the fail-safes Mystra made and unleashes the spellplague on the world, fourth edition happens. The only edition change other than second that didn't involve Mystra dying was 4th to 5th. Odd coincidence here, the spellplague that popped up after she died and her house got wrecked got fixed shortly after she got brought back to full power. Clearly those two things aren't related. Ao claimed all the credit after separating Abeil and Toril again. Weird that it took him a hundred years to get around to it and that it got done right after Mystra got fixed. I don't think there was a canon explaination for the 2nd to 3rd edition change.

TLDR; Kill all the other gods and doublekill Ao if that's really what you want, but for the good of everyone in the realm just let Mystra keep doing whatever it is she's doing. It's probably pretty important and the poor girl just wants to do her job.

[Asmotherion]

Realize that 4th edition wasn't a bad system and that edition wars are beneath me.
it's not bad per say... as a generic RPG it's... well not that bad. But i refuse to call it an official D&D edition when it strayed so far from core.

Pathfinder is more of a 4th edition of actually D&D than the official "4th" ever was.

[Raven777]

It forces you to be a cultist and worship monsters that are petty and cruel by nature. And if you dare to rail against them and don't become an abomination yourself (see: any number of undead monstrosities), you will be punished in an utterly horrific way until your very soul is devoured through all-consuming pain or poached by the demonic hordes.

"Pledge your soul to us and grovel, or we'll torture you horribly for the rest of your existence." I'm not sure how you can't see why that's utterly monstrous with even a passing glance.

Afroakuma once made a pretty well thought out lore expalnation as to why the Wall might be needed and why it was put back in short order that one time Kelemvor tried to abolish it:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/62456/why-are-the-faithless-condemned-to-the-wall-of-the-faithless-after-death

[Quertus]

Alternatively, Planeshift/teleport to earth, travel through time and stop 4e from ever existing.

Best answer ever. I approve.


I feel that it says something about how screwed up FR is that almost every single response to the "You end up in Forgotten Realms. What do you do?" threads has, for more than a decade now, come down to 'escape FR as soon as possible' or 'kill all gods and replace them with something better'. Of course I also think that it says something about D&D that as the editions progress it keeps becoming both more important, and less possible, to achieve either of those goals.

I'm not sure that that says much about D&D, but it definitely says something about FR.

What do you think it says about D&D? That it's designed by railroaders who want consumers who are forced to stick with their *****, no matter how bad the plot?


I’m not sure I could play in an FR campaign a character who knew about Ao/the Wall of the Faithless and wasn’t ultimately on a quest to defeat the Epic-level Mafia.

Thank you for joining the ranks of the Righteous.


Afroakuma once made a pretty well thought out lore expalnation as to why the Wall might be needed and why it was put back in short order that one time Kelemvor tried to abolish it:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/62456/why-are-the-faithless-condemned-to-the-wall-of-the-faithless-after-death

So, on top of everything else, the FR deities are idiots? The Wall is their best PR idea? {Scrubbed} The more I hear about FR, the more fire I want to take to it - especially its gods.

(Also, the premise of the argument must be incorrect, else the god of Illithids would starve.)

[GrayDeath]

Well, it should say everything that a obssessiv-compulsive Nerd or a naive Farmgirl with a Work Ethic (Mystra restart 1 and 2) are the Gods MOST competent at actually keeping the realms going remotely well.

Yes, it would all work better if Mystra gave off some of the responsibility towards other GOds/High level Mortals, but to quote a nice fic: "Of course I am responsible again. There is noone else around who COULD be responsible for anything!".


SO yes, I support "Hugs for Mystra".

[Malphegor]

Oh yeah, Mystra’s the only one I respect unless Nobarion inherited more benevolent Aslan than what little there is about him lets us know. Myztra’s kinda of the same mold as Wee Jas in Greyhawk- ‘come on guys lets actually do our jobs OI VECNA STOP THAT’.

A god that does what she is meant to is surprisingly rare.

[Telok]

What do you think it says about D&D? That it's designed by railroaders who want consumers who are forced to stick with their *****, no matter how bad the plot?

There is a narrower spread of character options available, and those that exist are more and more focused on doing damage in combat. It seems that after 3.x the noncombat systems have become more and more relegated to "DMs have to make everything up" and there's no real interest in making books that aren't $60+ mega adventures or big books of hit point bags to fight.

I think that there's a reluctance to move beyond battle mat combats. Possibly due to the fact that non-combat abilities don't play nice with the current emphasis on some idealized concept of class balance.

This sort of thing is fine in a game where there are no questions beyond "where do we go and how hard do we have to hit things when we get there". But the question posed with "How soon does X know about Y and what do they know/do?" isn't about doing hit point damage to something.

Luckily this is a 3.x question so we have an answer that doesn't rely completely on individual DM fiat. Get out of FR or install a better set of gods.

[EdinoiZ]

Luckily this is a 3.x question so we have an answer that doesn't rely completely on individual DM fiat. Get out of FR or install a better set of gods.

This, but maybe first ask Mystra about which gods her plan to keep the universe from imploding, again, relies upon. Then hug her and exercise extreme care when replacing the cancerous tumors of the pantheon with better beings.

[ShurikVch]

So, what do?Travel to Maztica or Zakhara, watch the firework from the safe distance? :smallcool:
I mean - 4E happened just in Faerûn...



Just throwing this bit into the "the gods all suck" ring after seeing the thing about Mystra, every time she gets interfered with Toril had some sort of major issue pop up, which might be because she's legitimately working her hardest to keep bad things from happening and everyone and their dog keeps screwing her over while she's busy. Trying to regulate magic so the entire realm doesn't get screwed over? Ao decides the gods don't care about their mortals enough or something after a pair of idiots tried to usurp him so he chucks them all down to Toril to play mortal for a while, screwing up what Mystra was doing, messing up magic. When Mystra tried to get back to work she got explosion-punched by the security guard at the door and second edition happened. Trying to regulate magic so the entire realm doesn't get screwed over while also trying to fix the damage a big old war was doing to the weave? A wizard decides he can do it better and takes all her power, immediately using his new vast cosmic knowledge to learn that the situation was more complicated than he thought and Mystra was already in the middle of fixing it and he's may have accidentally-ed magic, forcing Mysta to give her life to keep things from getting too as bad as they otherwise would. That's still bad enough that Magic is completely messed up for a while anyway and so third edition happens. Trying to regulate magic so the entire realm doesn't get screwed over while also making sure that even if she dies again magic will be fine? Shar gets Cyric to gank her, then breaks all the fail-safes Mystra made and unleashes the spellplague on the world, fourth edition happens. The only edition change that didn't involve Mystra dying was 4th to 5th. Odd coincidence here, the spellplague that popped up after she died and her house got wrecked got fixed shortly after she got brought back to full power. Clearly those two things aren't related. Ao claimed all the credit after separating Abeil and Toril again. Weird that it took him a hundred years to get around to it and that it got done right after Mystra got fixed.Well, firstly - I'm really tired from people lumping Mystryl, Mystra, and Midnight into a single goddess
Secondly, you got it very backward - Karsus's Folly happened almost 1700 years earlier than the Time of Troubles
And thirdly, Karsus's Folly wasn't edition-changing event - Netheril: Empire of Magic (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Netheril:_Empire_of_Magic) was released at November of 1996 - literally years before the 3E

[TalonOfAnathrax]

This thread is very disappointing. The OP specified that you start at level 3, but most answers say "of course I will quickly become incredibly powerful!" and utterly fail to say how they will do that.

Instead this thread is just another "everything that sucks about FR", which isn't exactly new.


The inability to pick your build is a shame, but I would almost certainly decide to be a Concept Cleric with the Commerce domain. This way you are sure that you won't starve or struggle with poverty !

Otherwise, Artificer is IMO the best pick. Magic item creation rules are vague and exploitable, after all.

[Calthropstu]

This thread is very disappointing. The OP specified that you start at level 3, but most answers say "of course I will quickly become incredibly powerful!" and utterly fail to say how they will do that.

Instead this thread is just another "everything that sucks about FR", which isn't exactly new.


The inability to pick your build is a shame, but I would almost certainly decide to be a Concept Cleric with the Commerce domain. This way you are sure that you won't starve or struggle with poverty !

Otherwise, Artificer is IMO the best pick. Magic item creation rules are vague and exploitable, after all.

Builds isn't the purpose of the thread. Getting planeshift is relatively easy. The question is "how do you handle spellplaque?". The overall answer is: leave.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This thread is very disappointing. The OP specified that you start at level 3, but most answers say "of course I will quickly become incredibly powerful!" and utterly fail to say how they will do that.

Instead this thread is just another "everything that sucks about FR", which isn't exactly new.


The inability to pick your build is a shame, but I would almost certainly decide to be a Concept Cleric with the Commerce domain. This way you are sure that you won't starve or struggle with poverty !

Otherwise, Artificer is IMO the best pick. Magic item creation rules are vague and exploitable, after all.I posted a link wherein I showed how easy it is to reach epic within days, and nearly all of that time is spent crafting scrolls.

As the poster before me said, the best way to handle the spellplague is to leave it behind entirely. Or you could become immune to it, grant that immunity to your followers, and either flip the gods off when they beg (read: threaten) you to save them or use their deific powers for your own purposes with the threat that if they don't, they die.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I posted a link wherein I showed how easy it is to reach epic within days, and nearly all of that time is spent crafting scrolls.

As the poster before me said, the best way to handle the spellplague is to leave it behind entirely. Or you could become immune to it, grant that immunity to your followers, and either flip the gods off when they beg (read: threaten) you to save them or use their deific powers for your own purposes with the threat that if they don't, they die.

I saw your link, and liked it. It was exactly the sort of content I was expecting this thread to be full of.
On the other hand, I didn't quite understand what you meant when you started using Wishes. How do Wishes help you level ?
They're very useful and they allow for infinite Wish loops, but that's as far as I know how to abuse them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I saw your link, and liked it. It was exactly the sort of content I was expecting this thread to be full of.Thanks.


On the other hand, I didn't quite understand what you meant when you started using Wishes. How do Wishes help you level ?
They're very useful and they allow for infinite Wish loops, but that's as far as I know how to abuse them.Remember: since you're using planar binding, they're spell-like wishes, meaning no XP costs are involved. Now, with that in mind, it completely uncaps the gp values of any magic items you ask for, since wishing for more expensive magic items merely ups the XP cost of the wish, which is then waived.

Now, your first act upon gaining planar binding is to find a friendly (or at least not actively hostile) djinn capable of granting wishes. Offer to enter a binding contract, wherein it grants you a wish in good faith, endeavoring to do its best to grant it without corrupting it, and you'll freely make the other two wishes on its behalf. Since most mortals who try to get free wishes will want them all for themselves, this is a pretty fantastic deal, and it's more than likely something that will tickle the djinn's interest. They can't normally use their wishes for themselves, after all.

What would be a faster way to gain levels than to get yourself a thought bottle that is already attuned to you and is filled with enough XP to get you to epic levels?

Alternatively, you can wish for a regular thought bottle, cast curse of lycanthropy to turn yourself into a were-[animal with huge numbers of HD], give yourself a single permanent negative level, and cast greater restoration to reset your XP to [your level + your animal HD + your new level adjustment]. Then store your new XP level in the thought bottle, cure your lycanthropy, and restore your XP to its previous level, but this time you're using it to gain class levels. Repeat this numerous times until you're whatever level you want to be.

I'm sure there are more ways to do this (such as using polymorph + Assume Supernatural Ability to gain HD through either dusk giant or barghest), but those are the best ones, I think

[khadgar567]

get 20th level quickly as possible and find the mercery named kelmavor lionsbane then shank his rouge buddy. then plane shift to golarion and live happily. lot of problems in 4th edition done due cedric becoming god thus killing him makes sure kelm and midnight become gods.
second plan replace midnight in above plan and fully rebuild weave from scrach

[rmnimoc]

Well, firstly - I'm really tired from people lumping Mystryl, Mystra, and Midnight into a single goddess
Secondly, you got it very backward - Karsus's Folly happened almost 1700 years earlier than the Time of Troubles
And thirdly, Karsus's Folly wasn't edition-changing event - Netheril: Empire of Magic (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Netheril:_Empire_of_Magic) was released at November of 1996 - literally years before the 3E
Yeah, the Karsus's folly thing was my bad there. I remembered that it involved edition changes, that it was second edition, and third edition was related, but I was pretty off on the specifics. It was a second edition story that took place during first edition that was made fully canon in 3rd edition. In my defense, that's complicated and weird and still a solid reason for people to leave Mystra alone.

As for the second bit, I'd argue Mystryl, Mystra, and Mystra (Midnight) are all still the same entity, since Mystra is literally just the reincarnation of Mystryl (with a bit of an alignment shift) and Ao basically just shoved what was left of Mystra into Midnight after Mystra died, giving her the memories and powers of Mystra (who has the memories and powers of Mystryl). You might be going off a different classification, but by any metric I'd care to use they're all the same person.

The major point is, no matter what name the goddess of magic is currently going under you really should just let her keep doing what she's doing and not mess with it, because if you do you'll screw something up.

[ShurikVch]

I think you’re missing the point here: it’s not the portfolios of the gods or whether they have a tinfoil “Good” halo hanging over their heads, it’s that all the gods seem totally okay with the onus of worship being 100% on mortals under the threat of Hells-like punishment, rather than the gods having to actually earn said worship. It’s a classic mafioso protection racket (“gee, mister, that’s a real nice SOUL ya got there, be a real SHAME if somethin’ were to HAPPEN to it, knowhaddaImean?” *rubs fingers together*), and being the God of Happy Butterflies That Vomit Rainbows doesn’t make you any less a mafioso if you’re willingly part of the racket.You see, there is a problem with that standpoint: why deities doing what they're doing with the Wall of Faithless?
The answer is dismayingly simple: to avoid dying by long and excruciating death!

When Netheril fell, the people of the middle and lower classes who were not killed by the fall of the enclaves (the only living worshipers of the god) turned their backs on Amaunator, believing he did nothing to stop the disasters affecting their civilization. His followers were right, but contractually, his hands were tied. Magic in all forms was under exclusive control of Mystryl, and Amaunator had no lawful right to interfere in any way, even when a magical catastrophe, such as Netheril’s fall, was in the process of occurring.
Over the centuries, many theories have been put forward by later scholars as to what ultimate fate Amaunator met. Some believe he was either absorbed into or became Lathander, others that he turned bitter and became At’ar, and yet others assert that he turned his back on Faerûn and entered the pantheon of the lands of Kara-Tur or simply moved on to other crystal spheres. The truth is that with the loss of nearly all his followers in Netheril after its fall, Amaunator began the long, arduous, and painful process of dying of neglect. After about a millennium, he did not have enough power left to maintain the Keep of the Eternal Sun on Mechanus and was ruthlessly exiled to the Astral Plane. His corpse now drifts with the endless astral tides, awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit may help him regain his once-proud heritage.See what's happens when a deity is out of worshipers?
And, since most of humans mortals sentient beings are astonishingly careless in the matters of any importance, how can deities ensure mortals would actually sort their religious business before it's too late already?
Only by dire threat of impending doom!
After all, it's just rightful to inflict on those mortals the same fate those mortals jeopardized deities with - ether because of simple negligence, or by occasional case of outright antitheism?



So, on top of everything else, the FR deities are idiots? The Wall is their best PR idea? The {Scrubbed post, scrubbed quote} {Scrubbed} They "solved this ages ago" by don't having the problem in the first place!



This thread is very disappointing. The OP specified that you start at level 3, but most answers say "of course I will quickly become incredibly powerful!" and utterly fail to say how they will do that.

Instead this thread is just another "everything that sucks about FR", which isn't exactly new.Main problem there: the very conception of Spellplague is faulty, and just couldn't happened outside of major Deus ex Machina - after all, there were already three different deities of Magic who died on Faerûn, and - while their deaths caused certain magic-related problems - there weren't nothing on the scale of Spellplague. So, what's so different now?
(In my headcanon, Spellplague is never happened - like the all 4E)
Attempting to fight Deus ex Machina with game mechanics is futility on the same scale as for DM words "Rocks fall, everyone dies!" to respond: "But my PC is immune to rocks! There, look the character sheet!"
So, it's simpler to circumvent the whole situation by getting the hell out of Dodge - after all, there wasn't Spellplague in Kara-Tur, Zakhara, or Sigil.

But if you want a PC solution - there it is: track down a Were-Legendary Shark, contract Lycanthropy from them, and sacrifice your shiny new [epic] feats for Epic Destiny - this way, you would be OK in both 3.X and 4E



As for the second bit, I'd argue Mystryl, Mystra, and Mystra (Midnight) are all still the same entity, since Mystra is literally just the reincarnation of Mystryl (with a bit of an alignment shift)Deities - unlike mortals - are incapable to change their alignment - at least, without direst consequences - say, Araushnee turned into monstrous Spider Queen, and Tyche suffered from a (very literal) split personality


and Ao basically just shoved what was left of Mystra into Midnight after Mystra died, giving her the memories and powers of Mystra (who has the memories and powers of Mystryl).Ao had decreed that none of the gods fallen during the Time of Troubles should be reinstated; the single known exception was Torm; Mystra - killed during the Time of Troubles...

[tiercel]

This thread is very disappointing. The OP specified that you start at level 3, but most answers say "of course I will quickly become incredibly powerful!" and utterly fail to say how they will do that.

Instead this thread is just another "everything that sucks about FR", which isn't exactly new.

To be fair, if you pick a setting which is arguably already dystopian due to one of its major features and then say “what do you do when there is a major apocalypse coming on top of it all?” then “leave!” with reasons why is an eminently reasonable response.


Builds isn't the purpose of the thread. Getting planeshift is relatively easy. The question is "how do you handle spellplaque?". The overall answer is: leave.

This.


I saw your link, and liked it. It was exactly the sort of content I was expecting this thread to be full of.

To be fair, MaxiDuRaritry posted a “get arbitrarily large power quickly” strat that could apply to anything, in principle, assuming that a DM doesn’t mind various forms of shenanigans that obviate playing the actual game and culminate in a custom-written feat that overtly says “I am immune to this apocalypse” and serves it up to adoring followers as a sort of cherry on top.

If infinite XP is this freely available, it should have already happened, including by BBEGs, and a Spellplague is the least of one’s apocalypses. (And “leave” is arguably still a better strategy, i.e. have your infinite power in some campaign setting that isn’t a total fixer-upper.)


You see, there is a problem with that standpoint: why deities doing what they're doing with the Wall of Faithless?
The answer is dismayingly simple: to avoid dying by long and excruciating death!
See what's happens when a deity is out of worshipers?
And, since most of humans mortals sentient beings are astonishingly careless in the matters of any importance, how can deities ensure mortals would actually sort their religious business before it's too late already?
Only by dire threat of impending doom!
After all, it's just rightful to inflict on those mortals the same fate those mortals jeopardized deities with - ether because of simple negligence, or by occasional case of outright antitheism?

Or, you know, gods could actually EARN worship through their deeds and/or the deeds they exhort from their followers. Instead, the FR gods—either willfully, or tacitly going along with Ao’s “dance mortal monkeys dance!” sadism—run an extortion racket; that’s not symbiotic, it’s parasitic.

[Telok]

{Scrubbed}

[Saintheart]

Builds isn't the purpose of the thread. Getting planeshift is relatively easy. The question is "how do you handle spellplaque?". The overall answer is: leave.

I thought the answer to handling spellplaque was using a spelltoothbrush.

[Korwin]

I was reading a forgotten realms story and I got a bit curious as to what people would do in a specific situation.

The situation is this: You wake up in a new human body in Toril. The year is 1375 DR, meaning in just ten years everything is going to get fourth editioned when the spellplague happens. The previous owner of your body went through the effort of learning the basics for the class(es) of your choice and is effectively level three. That said you can assume your body was, like everyone else in canon Toril, poorly optimized. Think the wizard with the starting feat Toughness from the PHB. Their choices are better to have than nothing, but definitely not anything that'll help you that much.Getting rid of the Feats should be easy. Retraining, Chaos Feat Shuffle or Psionics.


So, you've got ten years in the world to amass all the power you can before fourth edition nerfs literally everything and you're left with as much of your power as the new system allows. Of course, if in those ten years you can manage to stop Mystra from getting ganked (again) or otherwise stop the spellplague (even the overdiety Ao couldn't so that might be a bit above your level) you might be able to prolong the age of greatness that was the Third (and a half) Edition. So, what do?
The biggest question is, how house ruled is the world. What abuses are (still?) in the world.
Could I say: Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu?
Deals with Efreeti?
Is there Epic Spellcasting?
Is there a way to become a Gestalt build?

Assuming the Abuses are there so I can use them and there are Magic Shops.
I would try to get an Candle of Invocation (8.400 GM) ASAP, to get an unlimited wish ring and get levels fast with Thought Bottle and Lycantrophy.
I would Chaos Feat Shuffle the useless Racial Feats and poor choice Feats away into something usefull.

Buildwise (if Gestalt is not an option) I am not shure at the Moment, but probably something with Ur-Priest.
(I would not count on psionics, because psionics got changed in 4e too.)

I then would Research about getting back to (our) Earth (could I still use magic here?), if yes. I would get there to research the spellplague, because I'm unshure about the in game justification.
If not, I would try to summon someone from Earth with more Knowledge about it. If it's as simple as warning Mystra I would send her a message and to be safe planeshift away to somewhere, where I could keep my power and the spellplague is not happening.

[Quertus]

You see, there is a problem with that standpoint: why deities doing what they're doing with the Wall of Faithless?
The answer is dismayingly simple: to avoid dying by long and excruciating death!

Willing to do extremely evil acts to preserve their immortality? That sounds familiar… and not in an "exalted good" kind of way.


See what's happens when a deity is out of worshipers?
And, since most of humans mortals sentient beings are astonishingly careless in the matters of any importance, how can deities ensure mortals would actually sort their religious business before it's too late already?

Murder all the gods, replace them with their betters?



Only by dire threat of impending doom!

May noone who believes this ever be in any position of power.



After all, it's just rightful to inflict on those mortals the same fate those mortals jeopardized deities with - ether because of simple negligence, or by occasional case of outright antitheism?

Interesting question. Playground?


Please, explain me: what, exactly, Norse gods "solved" ages ago?

Tiered afterlives.


Would those Norse gods die slowly and painfully if Norse people just stop to worship them?
If no - then they "solved this ages ago" by don't having the problem in the first place!

Curiously, other D&D worlds don't need the Wall of Evil. Sounds like it's not a "necessary" evil, after all. The FR deities are just idiots.

[rmnimoc]

Deities - unlike mortals - are incapable to change their alignment - at least, without direst consequences - say, Araushnee turned into monstrous Spider Queen, and Tyche suffered from a (very literal) split personality

Ao had decreed that none of the gods fallen during the Time of Troubles should be reinstated; the single known exception was Torm; Mystra - killed during the Time of Troubles...

That's all true, but Midnight still has all the memories and emotions of both the others (though she tries to avoid them, since the memories of a diety are a big deal and the more of them the views the less Midnight and the more Mystra she becomes). She knows what it felt like to have Karsus usurp her power, for example, and that means the other Mystra did too, so there's a continuity of consciousness there as well.

I don't know what you use to determine if someone's the same person, but continuity of consciousness is good enough for me and they've all got it. Ao can make whatever decree he wants, but the fact of the matter is that Midnight remembers being Mystra who remembers being Mystryl and interfering with whatever entity has those memories and the slot in the narrative that Mystra has ranges from "a bad idea" to "literally apocalyptic" and Mystra could really use a hug.

[ben-zayb]

This thread is very disappointing. The OP specified that you start at level 3, but most answers say "of course I will quickly become incredibly powerful!" and utterly fail to say how they will do that.This is the 3e/3.5e/d20 subforum, where going from level 3 to epic in a ridiculously short span of time can be left as an exercise for the proverbial reader.

EDIT: Forgot to answer: Leave Faerun or replace the Gods

[unseenmage]

The same thing I do every Forgotten Realms campaign, Pinky:

TEAR DOWN THE WALL OF THE FAITHLESS!

Er.

"Get out of Dodge" seems a reasonable option, honestly.

This. So much this.

Especially as Toril canonically has Spelljammjng AND several pathways to the 'real' world.

[TheCount]

im honetsly curious why its so bad people want to leave Faerun.

The part about killing and replacing most gods though? that will be a bit hard, what with the parasitic relation they have with the world.

Best methold would be probably beheading the dragon, literally, as the start, just so, there wont be heavy interference.
as for the rest of the gods? i dont even know most of them, so SOME may be rehabilated (maybe the nature gods most likely?) though there will be opposition, maybe even more so as not everyone of them will die (so if you wanna spare Mystra, you gotta do it smart, so the idiots dont kill her, force her to fight or use as a shield).
...again i dont know enough to jug who needs killing and who not, so i leave it to others to judge.

aside from that, im swayed by the "hug Mystra" club, so yeah, heads up and hugs for her.

[ShurikVch]

Or, you know, gods could actually EARN worship through their deeds and/or the deeds they exhort from their followers.And they do!
Look there - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting have almost a hundred of various deities, yet there are enough worship to all of them.
Deities who're really unpopular are suffering for it terribly - see the declination of Gorellik (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gorellik), coma of Ramenos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramenos), or - once again - death of Amaunator.


Instead, the FR gods—either willfully, or tacitly going along with Ao’s “dance mortal monkeys dance!” sadism—run an extortion racket;What sadism?
They set the punishment for endangering their lives.
Where's Ao involved there?


that’s not symbiotic, it’s parasitic.Is grazing cow symbiotic to a grass?
Note: it's manure fertilizing a soil on which grass grows.

So, deities are "cows", and mortals are "grass" (like it or not)

Except, grass can't just stand up and go somewhere where are no cows.
People - can.
Yet, there are no mass migrations to other realms...



Valhalla is ale & wenches & bar fights all the time. All you have to do to get in is not blaspheme, not be a total coward, and die fighting. And it may be possible to squeak through on two out of three. Good reason for lots of adventure type people to follow them.By this metrics, none of the best warriors are, actually, in Valhalla: best warriors don't die fighting - their enemies do


The Norns spawned demigod offspring semi-regularly and actively answered prayers sometimes.D&D deities are answering prayers pretty much all the time... :smallconfused:


To the point of the god showing up in person sometimes.Also isn't unheard of (even outside the Time of Troubles): say, horde of the No-Nose from the Bloodier Teeth tribe at Orsraun Mountains was vanquished by a mysterious knight in shining white armor, who was said to be the god Torm (Swords of the Iron Legion)


But their actual continued existance depended on a goddess and some fruit trees. They existed as gods independent of worship.Exactly!



That's all true, but Midnight still has all the memories and emotions of both the others (though she tries to avoid them, since the memories of a diety are a big deal and the more of them the views the less Midnight and the more Mystra she becomes). She knows what it felt like to have Karsus usurp her power, for example, and that means the other Mystra did too, so there's a continuity of consciousness there as well.Any quotes?


I don't know what you use to determine if someone's the same person, but continuity of consciousness is good enough for me and they've all got it. Ao can make whatever decree he wants, but the fact of the matter is that Midnight remembers being Mystra who remembers being Mystryl and interfering with whatever entity has those memories and the slot in the narrative that Mystra has ranges from "a bad idea" to "literally apocalyptic" and Mystra could really use a hug.If Ao declared that none of the gods fallen during the Time of Troubles should be reinstated, than why Torm called the single known exception?
I mean - Ao can change his mind (like he did it with Torm), but he should at least admit it (like he did it with Torm)

One more thing about Mystra: Weave is artificial construct which is just constraining magical abilities (spellcasters from other realms are able to use magic in Faerûn just fine, but opposite isn't true for faerûnian spellcasters in another realms; and Epic Spellcasting doesn't using Weave at all). Mystra maintaining Weave, thus keeping shackles on magical abilities of faerûnian population. Maybe, when she wouldn't be there anymore, and the Weave will finally crash down, it will allow for some new magic...

Also, if it's the same goddess, then why we call her by the "middle name" - not the "original" (Mystryl), nor the "latest" (Midnight)?



Willing to do extremely evil acts to preserve their immortality? That sounds familiar… and not in an "exalted good" kind of way.What's so bad about the protecting themselves from impending death?
Lex talionis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_for_an_eye)!


Murder all the gods, replace them with their betters?Oh, my sweet summer child, you're believing "their betters", whoever they may be, would be devoid of self-preservation instinct... :smallamused:


May noone who believes this ever be in any position of power.Except they already are - every time and everywhere :smallfrown:


Tiered afterlives.And faerûnian deities - didn't?
Is it really worse than the Dark Sun or Eberron, where everybody are suffering regardless?


Curiously, other D&D worlds don't need the Wall of Evil. Sounds like it's not a "necessary" evil, after all. The FR deities are just idiots.What "other D&D worlds"?
Al-Qadim, where afterlife is completely unknown?
Dark Sun, where everybody are suffering regardless?
Dragonlance, where afterlife is completely unknown?
Eberron, where everybody are suffering regardless?
Ghostwalk, where afterlife is completely unknown?
Midnight, where is no afterlife?
Mystara, where are no deities?
Ravenloft, where is no afterlife (and also, everybody are suffering despite of it)?

[TheCount]

And they do!

What sadism?
They set the punishment for endangering their lives.
Where's Ao involved there?

Is grazing cow symbiotic to a grass?
Note: it's manure fertilizing a soil on which grass grows.

So, deities are "cows", and mortals are "grass" (like it or not)

Except, grass can't just stand up and go somewhere where are no cows.
People - can.
Yet, there are no mass migrations to other realms...

D&D deities are answering prayers pretty much all the time... :smallconfused:

If Ao declared that none of the gods fallen during the Time of Troubles should be reinstated, than why Torm called the single known exception?
I mean - Ao can change his mind (like he did it with Torm), but he should at least admit it (like he did it with Torm)

<snip>

What's so bad about the protecting themselves from impending death?

<snip>

Is it really worse than the Dark Sun or Eberron, where everybody are suffering regardless?

Eberron, where everybody are suffering regardless?
Ghostwalk, where afterlife is completely unknown?
Ravenloft, where is no afterlife (and also, everybody are suffering despite of it)?

first, the whole thing is Ao's fault. He is supposed to keep EVERYONE in line, alas, he ****ed up and punished the weakest lot - mortals. He made the gods dependent on fate, why? because they didnt care about mortals. but aside from that? he hardly even glanced sternly at them, aside some exception.

Second, dieties/gods under Ao? there is just too much enmity to fight together and kill him, not to mention the ambigius ones having "better" ideas about what to do after (and most of those are on the "good" side sadly.

They dont protect themselves, they just automated the food delivery.

as for the afterlives, does it really matter of your memories fade, you yourself case to exists or a hivemind/gestalt inteligence devours?
also, isnt ravenloft a prison plane?
And you forgot Oerth, home of tthe greyhawk setting WICH IS THE DEFAULT ONE!

[Âmesang]

Buy a scroll of plane shift and escape to greyhawk or eberron
Just don't plane shift to Krynn (DRAGONLANCE®); it'd be quite a $&@#% to escape the Spellplague just in time to get hit by the Second Cataclysm… :smalltongue:

[rmnimoc]

Any quotes?

If Ao declared that none of the gods fallen during the Time of Troubles should be reinstated, than why Torm called the single known exception?
I mean - Ao can change his mind (like he did it with Torm), but he should at least admit it (like he did it with Torm)

One more thing about Mystra: Weave is artificial construct which is just constraining magical abilities (spellcasters from other realms are able to use magic in Faerûn just fine, but opposite isn't true for faerûnian spellcasters in another realms; and Epic Spellcasting doesn't using Weave at all). Mystra maintaining Weave, thus keeping shackles on magical abilities of faerûnian population. Maybe, when she wouldn't be there anymore, and the Weave will finally crash down, it will allow for some new magic...

Also, if it's the same goddess, then why we call her by the "middle name" - not the "original" (Mystryl), nor the "latest" (Midnight)?


The first Mystra’s memories often scare Midnight/Mystra 2, because they come with emotional baggage that she sees as changing HER upon contact (for instance, pull up a “Mystra 1” memory of Elminster, and with it comes the intense love and lust of Mystra 1, welling up inside Mystra 2 and changing how she regards Elminster). However, the memories of Mystryl feel so alien and different that Mystra 2 shuns them instinctively; when they happen to be memories charged with great emotion or tinged with great flows of power, they literally overwhelm her and can’t be “viewed” directly. So, she DOES “have a personal recollection of what it felt like to have Karsus attempt to usurp Her powers,” but she’s never experienced it, and probably never will.

All of this is why she’s so uncertain of herself (see the mountaintop scene I put into ELIMINSTER’S DAUGHTER) and so withdrawn (as compared to Mystra 1).
That's where I got the memory thing. As for why Ao said what he said and did what he did, I have zero idea? Maybe Ao knew Midnight would hide from her own memories because he didn't expect the string of disasters that led to the second sundering, maybe continuity of consciousness and soul isn't the line he's drawing for what makes a person a person, maybe he changed his mind, maybe he's got some deep plan involving it, maybe he considers Mystra more like furniture than a deity and just figured she went without saying, maybe he just wanted to screw with people. There are all sorts of reasons he could have made that claim despite knowing the Mystra thing. Or maybe he just didn't know, as smart as Ao is he's as flawed as anything else in the setting and he makes his fair share of mistakes.

As for why I call the combined entity Mystra instead of Mystryl, the biggest reason is that of the four incarnations have been Mystryl (the original), Mystra (the reincarnation), Mystra (Midnight), and Mystra (the one that was reformed from the power she gave her chosen). If Mystra wants to be called Mystra, I'll call Mystra Mystra. The other reason is that whenever I type Mystryl I always feel like I spelled it wrong (and a solid half the time I did), so avoiding having to type it is always a plus for me.

So the two most common paths are Bail or Deicide? I suppose the first makes sense and the latter is potentially theoretically possible. The spellplague showed that Ao is a lot more limited in power when dealing with things that aren't from his world and maybe an argument could be made that that happens to include you, but I don't think I'd be particularly comfortable trying to go toe to toe with someone on his level, regardless of how powerful I might happen to be, and I doubt you could go full-on God of War for too long before he got decided to do something about it.

I'd be a bit hesitant to say with confidence that any of the worlds are a (significantly) better bet than the one you're on. Sure, most are safer and more stable to one degree or another, but it's hard to beat the opportunities for promotion that Toril's got. I mean, in a mere hundred and ten years basically every divine seat goes up for grabs and all you've got to do to is take one. Granted, you've still got to beat out a deity for it, but none of them will be in the best of shape, everyone is looking to get rid of rivals, and best of all, there's a not insignificant number of gods who are happy and willing to make absurdly self-destructive decisions to inconvenience the other gods they don't like. All you've got to do is survive the spellplague, get epic, find a portfolio you want, and then find a god willing to go split the portfolios of a god they hate between you. It's pretty rare that you get a better chance to godhood than that.

[Quertus]

What sadism?
They set the punishment for endangering their lives.
Where's Ao involved there?


What's so bad about the protecting themselves from impending death?
Lex talionis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_for_an_eye)!

So, liches are cool for committing atrocities to maintain their immortality?

It's not "wanting to stay alive" that's evil - it's the evil acts that they (liches, the FR deities) are willing to take to stay alive that's evil.


Oh, my sweet summer child, you're believing "their betters", whoever they may be, would be devoid of self-preservation instinct... :smallamused:

No. I am stating that, under every moral system I know, "their betters" would make better moral choices.


Except they already are - every time and everywhere :smallfrown:

Contrary to your assertion, I've actually met people worthy of respect. Ones who don't believe that threats are the only possible answer.


Is grazing cow symbiotic to a grass?
Note: it's manure fertilizing a soil on which grass grows.

So, deities are "cows", and mortals are "grass" (like it or not)

Except, grass can't just stand up and go somewhere where are no cows.
People - can.
Yet, there are no mass migrations to other realms...

Um, have you read this thread? The only reason that there's no such mass migration is bad writing (or ignorance). Because, as this thread (and many like it) clearly show(s), were the people informed, there would be a mass migration. And then the gods might get the starvation that they deserve.

Also, less "cows and grass" and more "fruit trees and bees" (the gods are the bees).


And faerûnian deities - didn't?
Is it really worse than the Dark Sun or Eberron, where everybody are suffering regardless?

What "other D&D worlds"?
Al-Qadim, where afterlife is completely unknown?
Dark Sun, where everybody are suffering regardless?
Dragonlance, where afterlife is completely unknown?
Eberron, where everybody are suffering regardless?
Ghostwalk, where afterlife is completely unknown?
Midnight, where is no afterlife?
Mystara, where are no deities?
Ravenloft, where is no afterlife (and also, everybody are suffering despite of it)?


as for the afterlives, does it really matter of your memories fade, you yourself case to exists or a hivemind/gestalt inteligence devours?
also, isnt ravenloft a prison plane?
And you forgot Oerth, home of tthe greyhawk setting WICH IS THE DEFAULT ONE!

Well, Playground? Are we escaping the spell plague, 4e, the morality-impared deities, and/or the Wall?

For those whose answer includes "the Wall", what alternatives are better?

Myself, I'd be fleeing for one of my own homebrew campaign worlds, where I know that the gods, morality, and the afterlife are at least not completely objectionable or amoral. But what do my better-informed peers have to say on this matter?


So the two most common paths are Bail or Deicide? I suppose the first makes sense and the latter is potentially theoretically possible. The spellplague showed that Ao is a lot more limited in power when dealing with things that aren't from his world and maybe an argument could be made that that happens to include you, but I don't think I'd be particularly comfortable trying to go toe to toe with someone on his level, regardless of how powerful I might happen to be, and I doubt you could go full-on God of War for too long before he got decided to do something about it.

I'd be a bit hesitant to say with confidence that any of the worlds are a (significantly) better bet than the one you're on. Sure, most are safer and more stable to one degree or another, but it's hard to beat the opportunities for promotion that Toril's got. I mean, in a mere hundred and ten years basically every divine seat goes up for grabs and all you've got to do to is take one. Granted, you've still got to beat out a deity for it, but none of them will be in the best of shape, everyone is looking to get rid of rivals, and best of all, there's a not insignificant number of gods who are happy and willing to make absurdly self-destructive decisions to inconvenience the other gods they don't like. All you've got to do is survive the spellplague, get epic, find a portfolio you want, and then find a god willing to go split the portfolios of a god they hate between you. It's pretty rare that you get a better chance to godhood than that.

How about killing all the gods (or maybe just hug M (if she is capable of comprehending how evil the Wall is), whatever), *then* take on AO with their combined portfolios?

[TheCount]

How about killing all the gods (or maybe just hug M (if she is capable of comprehending how evil the Wall is), whatever), *then* take on AO with their combined portfolios?

would be a lot easier if you escaped Faerun and got strong enough to kill Ao, then go back and kill him, less opposition that way imo.
After that, you can chose if you devour the other portfolios and give it to new gods or re-educate some of the current ones.

Also, tear down the wal lits only there because the gods are lazy and Ao forced them to feed on mortal souls.

[Quertus]

Ao forced them to feed on mortal souls.

Did he? In most worlds, gods feed on prayers, on belief, on actions that support their portfolio. If AO forced them to feed on souls, then the gods of soulless beings (the elemental lords, for example), or ones whose followers souls get eaten (Illithid) can't exist in FR.

[TheCount]

Did he? In most worlds, gods feed on prayers, on belief, on actions that support their portfolio. If AO forced them to feed on souls, then the gods of soulless beings (the elemental lords, for example), or ones whose followers souls get eaten (Illithid) can't exist in FR.

yes he did, it was kinda hard to find, as i didnt remembered what the event was called, alas, google is our (shady) friend!

From tvtropes:
In the Forgotten Realms, a god's power is determined by his/her number of worshippers, and needs at least one worshipper to maintain Divine status (albeit at a demigod level). The only exception is the overdeity Ao, who needs no worshippers to maintain power because he rules over other gods. This development took long to come, as the deities were independently powerful before the Avatar Crisis, when Ao got fed up with nobody doing their duties or taking care of their worshippers any more. The post-Avatar Crisis fluff tended to suggest, when the subject came up, that the Gods did gain power from being prayed to and having followers before the Crisis. What Ao did after the Crisis was, essentially, toning down the power you gained from your Portfolio, and ramping up how much power you gained from belief.
Under the tabletop spoiler (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly)

From faerun wiki:
The Time of Troubles was precipitated by an attempt by the gods Bane and Myrkul to steal the Tablets of Fate from the overdeity Ao. Angry at the gods for their habitual pursuit of power and negligence toward their mortal faithful,[2] Lord Ao relegated every god (except for the guardian god Helm, selected to protect the gates to the heavens[3]) to walk among their followers on the earth.[2] The immediate effects of this edict were threefold. First, divine magic (spells granted to clerics by their patron deities) ceased to function altogether[4] unless the cleric was within one mile of their deity's avatar. Second, arcane magic (a force channeled from the Weave by wizards and sorcerers) ceased to be regulated by its steward, Mystra and became dangerously unpredictable.[2] Third, the characteristically immortal and aloof deities were now vulnerable (though still devastatingly powerful) and dwelling among the civilizations of Faerûn.[5]
from a more "offical" source (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Time_of_Troubles)

also, here what Ao did after the tablets were recowered:
Most scholars believed that the Era of Upheaval started with the calamitous event known as the Time of Troubles, that took place in 1358 DR, when the gods were cast down from the Upper planes and roamed the land incarnated as mortals.[1] The chaos of the Time of Troubles left a lasting mark into the world. When Lord Ao destroyed the Tablets of Fate, he unraveled the laws of Realmspace and the worlds of Abeir and Toril, separated since the Tearfall, began to join once again
They just cant catch a break huh? (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Era_of_Upheaval)

[khadgar567]

well the worst parts of the spell plague is created by one wrong person become god so if you are not bailing on the first opourtunity you gents need to kill the guy named cedric quickly as possible so kelmavor lionsbane becomes the god of undead or in better chance you become the god of dead this makes sure second spell plague never happens. only thing we can not change quickly enough is midnight inhering the mystras power but ganking cedric early enough in the line allows us to kill the evil god duo then pulling cedric ourselves which was the reason of spell plague then its up to you to do what ever you want. but making kelmavor lionsbane god makes sure wall of faitless removed in ending.

[Quertus]

yes he did, it was kinda hard to find, as i didnt remembered what the event was called, alas, google is our (shady) friend!

From tvtropes:
In the Forgotten Realms, a god's power is determined by his/her number of worshippers, and needs at least one worshipper to maintain Divine status (albeit at a demigod level). The only exception is the overdeity Ao, who needs no worshippers to maintain power because he rules over other gods. This development took long to come, as the deities were independently powerful before the Avatar Crisis, when Ao got fed up with nobody doing their duties or taking care of their worshippers any more. The post-Avatar Crisis fluff tended to suggest, when the subject came up, that the Gods did gain power from being prayed to and having followers before the Crisis. What Ao did after the Crisis was, essentially, toning down the power you gained from your Portfolio, and ramping up how much power you gained from belief.
Under the tabletop spoiler (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly)

From faerun wiki:
The Time of Troubles was precipitated by an attempt by the gods Bane and Myrkul to steal the Tablets of Fate from the overdeity Ao. Angry at the gods for their habitual pursuit of power and negligence toward their mortal faithful,[2] Lord Ao relegated every god (except for the guardian god Helm, selected to protect the gates to the heavens[3]) to walk among their followers on the earth.[2] The immediate effects of this edict were threefold. First, divine magic (spells granted to clerics by their patron deities) ceased to function altogether[4] unless the cleric was within one mile of their deity's avatar. Second, arcane magic (a force channeled from the Weave by wizards and sorcerers) ceased to be regulated by its steward, Mystra and became dangerously unpredictable.[2] Third, the characteristically immortal and aloof deities were now vulnerable (though still devastatingly powerful) and dwelling among the civilizations of Faerûn.[5]
from a more "offical" source (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Time_of_Troubles)

also, here what Ao did after the tablets were recowered:
Most scholars believed that the Era of Upheaval started with the calamitous event known as the Time of Troubles, that took place in 1358 DR, when the gods were cast down from the Upper planes and roamed the land incarnated as mortals.[1] The chaos of the Time of Troubles left a lasting mark into the world. When Lord Ao destroyed the Tablets of Fate, he unraveled the laws of Realmspace and the worlds of Abeir and Toril, separated since the Tearfall, began to join once again
They just cant catch a break huh? (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Era_of_Upheaval)

So, everything I'm hearing says that they need worshipers (just like the (2e) rules say), not that they eat souls. So the elemental lords & Illithid god still make sense. And the Wall of Shame is still simultaneously reprehensible and representative of their failure.

I've had characters ascend to godhood. Numerous other players have played characters who worshiped them - some who knew that they were former PCs, others who did not. Having followers is really as simple as not being a total ****. I mean, I'm a ****, but I'm not a total ****. Unlike the FR deities, who cannot get worship without threats. That's… pretty pathetic.

No, I mean, seriously, you said that even 1(!) follower is enough to keep a god alive. Yet it was contended that the FR gods were morally justified to create the Wall of Evil because they feared for their lives.

Just think about what abject failures the FR deities must be if they honestly believe that no-one would pray to them if they didn't threaten their (after)lives to do so.

[Telok]

Ya want belief? Pull a Zeus.

Bang anyone that looks good and spawn a bunch of superheros/demigods. Then fry anyone who doesn't play nice with your kids.

People will absolutely belive in you whem your kid is punching down castle walls and a bad date results in divine hot electric death.

[khadgar567]

Ya want belief? Pull a Zeus.

Bang anyone that looks good and spawn a bunch of superheros/demigods. Then fry anyone who doesn't play nice with your kids.

People will absolutely believe in you when your kid is punching down castle walls and a bad date results in divine hot electric death.
then your youngest son massacres entire extended family and maries in to goddess from another pantheon. ala kratos only goddess he didn't kill is the aphrodite due she become smart enough to offer her own challenge to him.

[Telok]

then your youngest son massacres entire extended family and maries in to goddess from another pantheon. ala kratos only goddess he didn't kill is the aphrodite due she become smart enough to offer her own challenge to him.

I had to check wikipedia to figure out what you were talking about. Yeah, modern entertainment video games don't generally follow the actual mythology well, if at all. And that one doesn't.

Personally I find the freedom/tyranny subtext of Kratos in Prometheus Bound rather more compelling than video game fight scenes.

[TheCount]

So, everything I'm hearing says that they need worshipers (just like the (2e) rules say), not that they eat souls. So the elemental lords & Illithid god still make sense. And the Wall of Shame is still simultaneously reprehensible and representative of their failure.

The Wall was made because the Myrkul was sadistic ****. he literally did it to punish those who didnt worshipped a god, for no reason, aside from being a saistic ****.

Then Kelemvor tore it down for a time and a lot of people become faitless for some reason and he put it back, for who knows why.....

[AlexanderRM]

Get to epic within a couple of days. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587253-You-get-Isekai-d&p=23892158&viewfull=1#post23892158) That way you can survive in the utter deathworld that is Abeir-Toril.


Since it's too late to necro that thread and I really want to share this, plus this thread isn't fully on the original topic anyway: If things like "modern day but D&D 3.5 magic exists but is a lost art" are on the table, pick a utopian science fiction setting- Greg Egan's Amalgam or Iain Bank's Culture for instance, Star Trek in a pinch since while the Federation appears to be a horrifying dystopia underneath it's still better than present day Earth IMO- as a Wizard, Cleric, Archivist, Artificer or the like and share your magic with them; they can find a way to replicate it or at least train people really efficiently, secure themselves against any demonic or far realm incursions your reintroduction of magic may have made possible, and soon be able to plane shift/gate well enough to overwhelm and/or diplomatically incorporate the demons and far realms entities.

If you have to Isekai into a fantasy world: be an Artificer, focus on getting to level 3 as soon as possible without dying and then start crafting auto-resetting traps of Cure Minor Wounds, Mending, Amaneuensis (magic printing press), Create Food and Drink and so forth (both to feed everyone and because I'm a massive picky eater and would probably prefer flavorless gruel over most medieval food). If Isekai tropes apply to the setting then the "if it were so easy, someone would have done it thousands of years ago" concern is bypassed because Isekai protagonists are usually mary sues and sometimes do things like that.

[ShurikVch]

They dont protect themselves, they just automated the food delivery.Bad analogy is bad: food is something that anybody should be able to procure by themselves (it's how it works in the nature); what deities are need - can be only obtained by being given freely by somebody else (and that somebody else is in no obligations to give it to you - rather than one of your numerous rivals).


as for the afterlives, does it really matter of your memories fade, you yourself case to exists or a hivemind/gestalt inteligence devours?Well, if I should choose between the entrapment of Elysium, hopelessness of Dolurrh, senseless oblivion of Grey, or endless suffering in the Wall of Faithless - then sure, I would pick Elysium in a trice
Also, there are some Exceptional Petitioners (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#exceptionalPetitioners), who retain the knowledge of their previous selves


also, isnt ravenloft a prison plane?Ravenloft is one of major mysteries of D&D (on the same scale as the Lady of Pain, or General of Gehenna), since the true nature of the Mists stays unknown. So, any hypothesis is as good as the next one.


And you forgot Oerth, home of tthe greyhawk setting WICH IS THE DEFAULT ONE!And which book describes the afterlife in Oerth?



So the two most common paths are Bail or Deicide?Hey, I suggested to get an Epic Destiny via contracting Lycanthropy of Legendary Shark!..



So, liches are cool for committing atrocities to maintain their immortality?What "atrocities"?
Killing annoying pests - so-called "adventurers" - who wish nothing less than kill and rob them?


It's not "wanting to stay alive" that's evil - it's the evil acts that they (liches, the FR deities) are willing to take to stay alive that's evil.If you know about somebodies who did better in similar situation - then, please, don't be shy - call the names


No. I am stating that, under every moral system I know, "their betters" would make better moral choices.So, "to die slowly and horribly", or "to make sure everybody who're endangering you and your pals with such death are suffering equally"?
IMHO, not much place for moral choices.
What else can they do - allow to those who're endangering them to go scot-free?


Contrary to your assertion, I've actually met people worthy of respect. Ones who don't believe that threats are the only possible answer.Do you know about the countries where are no prisons? My point!
Heck, if your children are failing to attend a school, then government people will come, take your children from you, and stick you to prison (where you, possibly, will die) :smallmad:
Or even: crossed the street on red (the only visible car clearly didn't going anywhere) - policeman popped out of a car which was parked nearby, and fined me!


Um, have you read this thread? The only reason that there's no such mass migration is bad writing (or ignorance).Sure, when there are nothing to prove your point - blame it on "bad writing"! :smallamused:


Because, as this thread (and many like it) clearly show(s), were the people informed, there would be a mass migration.Where?
I mean - where is such mass migration happening?


Also, less "cows and grass" and more "fruit trees and bees" (the gods are the bees).One more bad comparison:
on one hand - trees absolutely can't go somewhere where are no bees (unlike people);
and on the other hand - if trees even would do such thing, they would go extinct in a generation, while people are still able to survive without deities.


How about killing all the gods (or maybe just hug M (if she is capable of comprehending how evil the Wall is), whatever), *then* take on AO with their combined portfolios?And who said it will be enough?
(Also, you're, likely, will be completely insane by that point - since for Cyric took much less to go bonkers)
If you want to kill all gods, then, at least, do it properly - break out Pandorym!



I've had characters ascend to godhood. Numerous other players have played characters who worshiped them - some who knew that they were former PCs, others who did not. Having followers is really as simple as not being a total ****. I mean, I'm a ****, but I'm not a total ****. Unlike the FR deities, who cannot get worship without threats. That's… pretty pathetic.Go, check the Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineRanks):
Divine Ranks
Each deity has a divine rank. A deity’s divine rank determines how much power the entity has.

Rank 0
Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

Rank 1-5
These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits. A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio.

Rank 6-10
Called lesser deities, these entities grant spells and can perform more powerful deeds than demigods can. Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods. They also have keener senses where their portfolios are concerned.

Rank 11-15
These entities are called intermediate deities. They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities.

Rank 16-20
Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities. The most powerful of greater deities rule over other deities just as mortal sovereigns rule over commoners.

Rank 21+
These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.See: even for a Demigods, the "Numerous other players" is literally a bread crusts!
(Although, I'm pretty sure - I read somewhere: for Demigods, worshipers are completely optional, so - let's say "For Lesser+ Deities")


No, I mean, seriously, you said that even 1(!) follower is enough to keep a god alive. Yet it was contended that the FR gods were morally justified to create the Wall of Evil because they feared for their lives.Look at Bhaal, Gorellik, Ramenos - they are all alive... technically speaking...
Now, tell me - which deity would want to be comatose vegetable which their priests keeping on IV, barely-sentient beast, or inert impersonal force?


Just think about what abject failures the FR deities must be if they honestly believe that no-one would pray to them if they didn't threaten their (after)lives to do so.They don't "think" - they're know: when Kelemvor demolished the Wall, flow of worshipers dwindled - and not just for a few deities, but across the board! So they gathered, and said to Kelemvor: "The experiment was a failure; now, put the Wall back."
Also, let's don't forget about the numerous false cults which arose during the Time of Troubles, and stole some number of worshipers
Besides that, Heretics and Ur-Priests are using divine magic without any worshiping at all...



then your youngest son massacres entire extended family and maries in to goddess from another pantheon. ala kratos only goddess he didn't kill is the aphrodite due she become smart enough to offer her own challenge to him.
I had to check wikipedia to figure out what you were talking about. Yeah, modern entertainment video games don't generally follow the actual mythology well, if at all. And that one doesn't.

Personally I find the freedom/tyranny subtext of Kratos in Prometheus Bound rather more compelling than video game fight scenes.I don't played the God of War, so - for me - that reply reminded of two points from the myths: The predicted son of Zeus, who should beat him - just like Zeus beaten and overthrew Cronos. In order to avoid that fate, Zeus was forced to free Prometheus, who - as a payment for release - explained, how: "Don't marry Thetis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis), because her sons are always stronger than their fathers".
I read a variant of Heracles myths, where he beaten pretty much the whole Olympus pantheon, and although he didn't killed them, there was no doubt - if he ever got "really serious", nothing prevented him from dismembering gods and throw their parts into Tartarus, thus ending reign of the gods for indeterminable time

[Quertus]

1) And which book describes the afterlife in Oerth?

2) What "atrocities"?
Killing annoying pests - so-called "adventurers" - who wish nothing less than kill and rob them?

3) If you know about somebodies who did better in similar situation - then, please, don't be shy - call the names

4) Sure, when there are nothing to prove your point - blame it on "bad writing"! :smallamused:

5) Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineRanks):See: even for a Demigods, the "Numerous other players" is literally a bread crusts!
(Although, I'm pretty sure - I read somewhere: for Demigods, worshipers are completely optional, so - let's say "For Lesser+ Deities")

6) They don't "think" - they're know: when Kelemvor demolished the Wall, flow of worshipers dwindled - and not just for a few deities, but across the board! So they gathered, and said to Kelemvor: "The experiment was a failure; now, put the Wall back."
Also, let's don't forget about the numerous false cults which arose during the Time of Troubles, and stole some number of worshipers
Besides that, Heretics and Ur-Priests are using divine magic without any worshiping at all...

Wow, that was a lot in one post. I've numbered for convenience things that I think that I can respond to quickly.

1) Good question. Playground?

2) The act of becoming a Lich requires certain atrocities, unspecified in later editions of D&D, but which included eating dead babies you'd poisoned for just that purpose.

3) Another good question. Playground?

4) Now, here I *do* have evidence to point to - the number of Playgrounders saying "bail" and/or "tear down the wall!". That the FR authors lack such moral compunctions as evidenced by the general populous is inherently indicative of bad writing - either in explaining the Wall, or in building believable moral agents.

5) If 10% of the hundreds of PCs chose to worship my character with no Wall forcing them to do so, and we extrapolate those numbers to the populous*, it's easy to see that he'd have plenty of followers, not just "bread crusts".

* To be fair, "adventurers" are not a fair sampling of the populous. A god of commerce or fishing, for example, should have a much larger following than numbers derived from PCs would suggest. However, to continue to be fair, IME, most PCs are statistically more likely to be atheists than NPCs are.

6) it's hard to respond to this without getting into politics, but… years of threats don't exactly engender free support. So, uh, no surprise there?

That doesn't make the Wall any more moral.

[EldritchWeaver]

And they do!
Look there - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting have almost a hundred of various deities, yet there are enough worship to all of them.
Deities who're really unpopular are suffering for it terribly - see the declination of Gorellik (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gorellik), coma of Ramenos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramenos), or - once again - death of Amaunator.

Isn't it canon that Lathander was Amaunator and became Amaunator in 4e or 5e?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Isn't it canon that Lathander was Amaunator and became Amaunator in 4e or 5e?

That's retconned in 4e, yes.

In 3e, there are the Risen Sun Heresy (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Risen_Sun_heresy) and the Three-Faced Sun Heresy (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Three-Faced_Sun_heresy) and the associated tales of an upcoming "Deliverance" of some sort, which imply that the two gods might be related somehow. However, (A) the heresies contradict each other, at least partially, so it's just as likely that they're both misunderstandings/misinterpretations of some other state of affairs, e.g. a "Lathander has borrowed Amaunator's name to grab those worshipers" situation like Shar and Eshowdow, and (B) Amaunator faded away around 661 DR while Lathander was active in the realms before -255 DR, so the idea that Amaunator somehow straight-up reincarnated/transformed/etc. into Lathander like 4e posits can't be true given that they coexisted for nine centuries or so. Lathander taking on Amaunator's name as an aspect or something after the Spellplague is possible, but him having actually been Amaunator beforehand isn't.

[Warmjenkins]

Bad analogy is bad: food is something that anybody should be able to procure by themselves (it's how it works in the nature); what deities are need - can be only obtained by being given freely by somebody else (and that somebody else is in no obligations to give it to you - rather than one of your numerous rivals).

So, "to die slowly and horribly", or "to make sure everybody who're endangering you and your pals with such death are suffering equally"?
IMHO, not much place for moral choices.
What else can they do - allow to those who're endangering them to go scot-free?

One more bad comparison:
on one hand - trees absolutely can't go somewhere where are no bees (unlike people);
and on the other hand - if trees even would do such thing, they would go extinct in a generation, while people are still able to survive without deities.


I agree, less than stellar analogies. However you ignored a great analogy comparing what the gods are doing to a protection racket. Is the gangster justified in murdering people and destroying their possessions/livelihoods just because that's the only way they know to survive? By not paying your protection money to them they can no longer afford to feed themselves or pay for their house and car. The fewer people who pay the lower their quality of life becomes, just like how deities lose power. So by not paying them you are subjecting them to a life of poverty, disease, and slow starvation so they are now justified to murder you and your family in horrible ways because your unwillingness to give to them results in the same thing or worse.

Before you reply saying they could find another livelihood that doesn't involve crime; perhaps they were raised in a mafia family and either know nothing else or cannot leave of their own accord without risk to their lives. Much the same as the situation the deities appear to be in under Ao.

Also I don't believe it is ever stated that the deities cannot survive another way. Yes, perhaps no other way is known but they all seem rather content not to try and find such a way. Not to mention I belive they could forsake their godhood and live as a mortal idlf they so chose. So mortals not choosing to worship these evil creatures is punishable by torture and the destruction of their soul but a god not choosing to give up immortality is understandable and justified any atrocity neccessary to maintain that status?

[ShurikVch]

2) The act of becoming a Lich requires certain atrocities, unspecified in later editions of D&D, but which included eating dead babies you'd poisoned for just that purpose.Good Liches and Baelnorns. Check and mate!
(Also, Nijel Turnbottom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20020401a) - rare example of Neutral Lich)


6) it's hard to respond to this without getting into politics, but… years of threats don't exactly engender free support. So, uh, no surprise there?If we speaking about the political examples, then let's take some hypothetical day of election.
So, citizens should come and vote...
But...
"I don't feel well; election must proceed without me..."
"I have important business today; no time for voting..."
"I will accept any candidate..."
"The weather is awful; don't wanna to go out..."
"The election is rigged anyway..."
So, how easy it for any candidate to get votes, if electorate just don't voting at all?

Now, the "election" in the USSR:
Just one candidate.
Nothing short of catastrophe is able to make him (or her) lose the election.
Despite it, attendance is obligatorily; any voter who skips the "election" without valid reasons, will have serious problems...

Let's switch from IRL politics to faerûnian religions: some are joining because they're genuinely likeminded, some - because they hope to become one of Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Adepts, or Monks; some - because it may help their career (or something like that); and most - don't, because they're just don't care...
So, it's OK, if those in the first 3 categories are enough to support their deity.
But what if it's too few?..
Sure, deity can try to lure worshipers from other religions, but results there are unpredictable - from alignment incompatibility to direct conflict with the other deities.
So, those of mortals who're still unaffiliated are the safer target (and, possibly, also much more numerous).


That doesn't make the Wall any more moral.No more moral than breeding of cuckoos - but both does work.


4) Now, here I *do* have evidence to point to - the number of Playgrounders saying "bail" and/or "tear down the wall!".Which is hardly representative (especially considering the fact none of them are, actually, living at Faerûn)

But there is the thing: you're jeopardized by the Wall only in the case of you completely refusing to pick any possible deity; attempting to switch deities shortly before death and falling "in-between"; or erroneously selecting one of the false cults.

So, for the most people, unless they're actively antitheistic, or died too young to pick a deity, risk of the Wall is negligible.

Let's imagine the Saw (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saw_(franchise))-esque situation: person wakes up in some unfamiliar place, and besides him he can see a note: "Good morning! Now, you should find your way out. There are 88 doors. They are not equal to each other, but any door, potentially, can lead you from there. (See the specifics on the doors). Important note: at the end of the day, all doors will be locked, and room will be flooded with acid. Good luck!"
So, who wouldn't pick any door in such situation?

[Anymage]

Denizens not leaving the realms en masse is due to authorial fiat. The number of players saying that they'd get out ASAP strongly implies that the setting is messed up.

And frankly, needing a threat behind the wall is both authorial heavy-handedness and the offensive stupidity of the realms denizens. If good gods were actually good (and tried doing good within their domains instead of trying to tear down the wall or going after Ao because either would amount to suicide by overgod), good people should happily say their prayers at night in order to empower these agents of goodness. Good humans deciding that they're getting into heaven so screw any attempt to empower divine forces of goodness don't really sound all that Good.

[Calthropstu]

Denizens not leaving the realms en masse is due to authorial fiat. The number of players saying that they'd get out ASAP strongly implies that the setting is messed up.

And frankly, needing a threat behind the wall is both authorial heavy-handedness and the offensive stupidity of the realms denizens. If good gods were actually good (and tried doing good within their domains instead of trying to tear down the wall or going after Ao because either would amount to suicide by overgod), good people should happily say their prayers at night in order to empower these agents of goodness. Good humans deciding that they're getting into heaven so screw any attempt to empower divine forces of goodness don't really sound all that Good.

I actually like the setting at least pre-4e.
After the spellplague, the writing turned to ****. The epic grand adventures using good plots and fun characters turned to pure ****. Even the old decent authors such as salvatore went to pure ****.
4e was just horrible for faerun.

[Psychoalpha]

Denizens not leaving the realms en masse is due to authorial fiat. The number of players saying that they'd get out ASAP strongly implies that the setting is messed up.

Uh... everything in D&D settings is due to authorial fiat. That holds even more true for everything to do with the gods, again regardless of setting. Attempting theoretically logical extrapolations of human behavior and society for ANY of the published worlds (and homebrew ones as far as I've ever seen) would result in pretty drastically different outcomes and settings than the authors intended.

Denizens of Faerun don't leave en masse because they don't, and there are any number of plausible reasons for it, just like there's any number of reasons they might. The difference is that only one of those two outcomes results in the Forgotten Realms being the setting it is, that people want to play in (See: 4th Edition and what it did to Faerun). :p

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Anymage
The number of players saying that they'd get out ASAP strongly implies that the setting is messed up.

No, it doesn’t. The negative voices in this thread constitute a heavily biased and self-selected sample, and there’s zero justification in claiming they represent everyone who’s ever played in the Realms.

I played characters and ran campaigns in the Realms for 10 years, and none of these supposedly crippling issues was ever mentioned by anyone in all that time. Rather than sitting around trashing the setting, we had fun with our games and didn’t work ourselves into a state about any contrived philosophical ramifications.

[GrayDeath]

The Solution should be clear:

Get Levels in bard, Professions "Orator, American Accent", then get a scroll of COmmune and say: "Mr. Kelemvor, tear down this wall!"

[ShurikVch]

get 20th level quickly as possible and find the mercery named kelmavor lionsbane then shank his rouge buddy. then plane shift to golarion and live happily. lot of problems in 4th edition done due cedric becoming god thus killing him makes sure kelm and midnight become gods.
well the worst parts of the spell plague is created by one wrong person become god so if you are not bailing on the first opourtunity you gents need to kill the guy named cedric quickly as possibleCyric wasn't the primary cause of events which (allegedly) caused Spellplague - Shar was. She was always intended to destroy the world, so - considering she's immortal, it was permanent danger to the world, Cyric or not.



Isn't it canon that Lathander was Amaunator and became Amaunator in 4e or 5e?
That's retconned in 4e, yes.

In 3e, there are the Risen Sun Heresy (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Risen_Sun_heresy) and the Three-Faced Sun Heresy (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Three-Faced_Sun_heresy) and the associated tales of an upcoming "Deliverance" of some sort, which imply that the two gods might be related somehow. However, (A) the heresies contradict each other, at least partially, so it's just as likely that they're both misunderstandings/misinterpretations of some other state of affairs, e.g. a "Lathander has borrowed Amaunator's name to grab those worshipers" situation like Shar and Eshowdow, and (B) Amaunator faded away around 661 DR while Lathander was active in the realms before -255 DR, so the idea that Amaunator somehow straight-up reincarnated/transformed/etc. into Lathander like 4e posits can't be true given that they coexisted for nine centuries or so. Lathander taking on Amaunator's name as an aspect or something after the Spellplague is possible, but him having actually been Amaunator beforehand isn't.Lathander also murdered the goddess of common sense (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Murdane) (which, in hindsight, may explain any oddities in behavior of faerûnians), and caused the Dawn Cataclysm (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dawn_Cataclysm).
The more I looking at the Lathander's history, the more I seen just a whitewashed Cyric...

[Quertus]

Uh... everything in D&D settings is due to authorial fiat. That holds even more true for everything to do with the gods, again regardless of setting. Attempting theoretically logical extrapolations of human behavior and society for ANY of the published worlds (and homebrew ones as far as I've ever seen) would result in pretty drastically different outcomes and settings than the authors intended.

Denizens of Faerun don't leave en masse because they don't, and there are any number of plausible reasons for it, just like there's any number of reasons they might. The difference is that only one of those two outcomes results in the Forgotten Realms being the setting it is, that people want to play in (See: 4th Edition and what it did to Faerun). :p


No, it doesn’t. The negative voices in this thread constitute a heavily biased and self-selected sample, and there’s zero justification in claiming they represent everyone who’s ever played in the Realms.

I played characters and ran campaigns in the Realms for 10 years, and none of these supposedly crippling issues was ever mentioned by anyone in all that time. Rather than sitting around trashing the setting, we had fun with our games and didn’t work ourselves into a state about any contrived philosophical ramifications.


Which is hardly representative (especially considering the fact none of them are, actually, living at Faerûn)

There are many reasons to want to flee Faerun in this example: the spell plague, 4e, and the immoral gods and their Wall of the Faithless among them.

So, without posters explicitly giving their reasons, it is difficult to know which one(s) are the reason why everyone would want to leave (or commit deicide). Happily, plenty of posters have explicitly denounced the Wall. From this, we can conclude… well, I have heard 4 different conclusions so far. To whit, 1) that the writers have failed to explain the wall correctly - that it actually is not the immoral abomination presented in FR lore; 2) that the writers have failed to create believable moral agents - that the inhabitants of Faerun fail to look and behave like "real" humans; 3) that the sampling of people in this thread is anomalous - that we are not representative of humanity; 4) that the denizens of Faerun live in ignorance - that they have no idea that the moral abomination exists.

Point 4 actually explains my experiences with the Forgotten Realms. Yes, I have had many successful games played in FR, or on FR-based worlds. But none of my characters - and, most likely, few if any of the other PCs - were aware of the existence of the Wall of the Faithless.

Animate Dead is my favorite spell. I play predominately Evil characters. Yet even most of my characters (and, I believe, most of the PCs that they've adventured with) would be aghast at the abomination that is the Wall of the Faithless. Ignorance was the only thing keeping most of those characters from adding "tear down this wall" to their quest log.

Sadly, this state of ignorance cannot be used to excuse the FR gods, or to explain why the denizens of the Forgotten Realms do not react so negatively to the Wall. Because, canonically, both gods and men are aware of the Wall, and prayers to the gods - their very lifeline - dwindles without the constant threat of the Wall.

Point 3 is… difficult to believe that it is being made in good faith. Difficult, but not impossible. Yes, by virtue of knowing about the Forgotten Realms, we are inherently not a perfectly representative statistical sample of humanity. Yes, by numerous other measures, we do not represent humanity perfectly. But this is true for every survey - that being willing to participate necessarily biases the results towards certain personality types.

The fact remains, that a statistically significant portion of the survey responders replied with moral outrage at the abomination that is the Wall. And that this is not represented in the described denizens of Faerun.

However, I will give a nod to the lateral ways in which this comment is true. We are from different cultures than those of the denizens of Faerun. We have different values, different biases. We do not think like our ancestors, let alone like the diverse peoples of FR.

With an adequate world-building explanation, I could see this as sufficient to merit some cultures viewing the Wall as a "necessary evil", or others to dehumanize the dead so as to view their treatment as morally neutral. I am no Faerun scholar, but I have been given no such justification in this thread to explain the behavior of the denizens of Faerun. (The gods, perhaps, meet the "necessary evil" criteria)

Also, that doesn't make the Wall any less evil.

Thus, I am still left to blame bad writing - either in presenting the Wall, or in creating realistic human responses thereunto.


Good Liches and Baelnorns. Check and mate!
(Also, Nijel Turnbottom (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20020401a) - rare example of Neutral Lich)

Yes, you did kinda checkmate yourself, by demonstrating immortality alternatives.

Granted, *canon* alternatives to the Wall, where gods are shown to not need to bully to get worship, would be nice, but, as I said, my ascended mortals have certainly never needed such a system in their homebrew campaign worlds (where worship was every bit as essential to their continued "survival"). And it's trivially easy to see how the Faerun Pantheon is monumentally bad at being worthy of worship (again, especially compared to my and others ascended PCs that I have seen).


Which is hardly representative (especially considering the fact none of them are, actually, living at Faerûn)

Actually, the premise of this thread is kinda, "suppose you were living in Faerun". The answer from real people is predominately, "GTFO" - making the denizens of Faerun poorly written, not representative of real people.


But there is the thing: you're jeopardized by the Wall only in the case of you completely refusing to pick any possible deity; attempting to switch deities shortly before death and falling "in-between"; or erroneously selecting one of the false cults.

So, for the most people, unless they're actively antitheistic, or died too young to pick a deity, risk of the Wall is negligible.

Let's imagine the Saw (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saw_(franchise))-esque situation: person wakes up in some unfamiliar place, and besides him he can see a note: "Good morning! Now, you should find your way out. There are 88 doors. They are not equal to each other, but any door, potentially, can lead you from there. (See the specifics on the doors). Important note: at the end of the day, all doors will be locked, and room will be flooded with acid. Good luck!"
So, who wouldn't pick any door in such situation?

And yet, the existence of the Wall - or perhaps some other atrocities that the Faerun Pantheon has committed? - are sufficient for even the nominally human denizens of Faerun to judge them unworthy of worship.

[hamishspence]

Lathander also murdered the goddess of common sense (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Murdane) (which, in hindsight, may explain any oddities in behavior of faerûnians), and caused the Dawn Cataclysm (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dawn_Cataclysm).
The more I looking at the Lathander's history, the more I seen just a whitewashed Cyric...Umberlee did the actual killing. "Set in motion a sequence of events that lead to a death" is not necessarily murder - especially if the sequence was long enough and unpredictable enough.

That said, Lathlander is pretty thoughtless and arrogant for a NG character. Even his own paladins have shown signs of being smarter and more moral than he himself is about these things.

One of the highlights of the Tymora's Luck novel was when his own paladin disobeys his standing orders, to his face, for moral reasons.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Quertus
Point 3 is… difficult to believe that it is being made in good faith.

If this is directed at me, I don’t appreciate the insinuation that I’m posting dishonestly.


Originally Posted by Quertus
The fact remains, that a statistically significant portion of the survey responders….

What survey are you referring to? This thread doesn’t qualify as a survey instrument in any meaningful sense, and tests of significance don’t apply. “Statistically significant” is meaningless in this context.


Originally Posted by Quertus
...that the sampling of people in this thread is anomalous - that we are not representative of humanity....

Of course we’re not representative. Only a minuscule fraction of a percent of “humanity,” if you mean the real world’s current population, has ever heard of a role-playing game at all. Only a smaller fraction has ever picked up a D&D book, and only a much finer sliver knows the particular setting we’ve been discussing. Fewer yet have actually played in that setting, and even fewer of them have read the setting material closely enough to know the metaphysical details. And even fewer of those people have the time, energy or interest to discuss it online.

The only population you’re drawing from is a handful of members of a single gaming forum who have strong enough feelings about this issue that they’ve chosen to post in this thread. The fact that the thread title is focused on the Spellplague is guaranteed to stir a response from those members who have the strongest reaction to its mere mention, and who have taken the opportunity to hammer the setting for its supposed failings.

[Quertus]

If this is directed at me, I don’t appreciate the insinuation that I’m posting dishonestly.



What survey are you referring to? This thread doesn’t qualify as a survey instrument in any meaningful sense, and tests of significance don’t apply. “Statistically significant” is meaningless in this context.



Of course we’re not representative. Only a minuscule fraction of a percent of “humanity,” if you mean the real world’s current population, has ever heard of a role-playing game at all. Only a smaller fraction has ever picked up a D&D book, and only a much finer sliver knows the particular setting we’ve been discussing. Fewer yet have actually played in that setting, and even fewer of them have read the setting material closely enough to know the metaphysical details. And even fewer of those people have the time, energy or interest to discuss it online.

The only population you’re drawing from is a handful of members of a single gaming forum who have strong enough feelings about this issue that they’ve chosen to post in this thread. The fact that the thread title is focused on the Spellplague is guaranteed to stir a response from those members who have the strongest reaction to its mere mention, and who have taken the opportunity to hammer the setting for its supposed failings.

So, first off, apologies for my… difficult to interpret intentions. Most every time my phone rings, I lose my post. Allow me to rephrase: "most attempts to discredit multiplier posters for being 'not representative' come across as intellectually dishonest. Thus, my knee-jerk reaction is to treat them accordingly. It is difficult - but not impossible - for me to do otherwise. What follows is my attempt to take such comments, and analyze them on their own merits, rather than dismiss them out of hand". It was intended as a caveat, an explanation of my bias, not as an attack or accusation (or, if anything, as an attack on myself). Apologies for the confusion.

That said, the question is whether the subset of humans who know about RPGs, would bother commenting online, etc, should have a demonstrably different response. In this case, saying that we are "not representative" is tantamount to claiming that, by virtue of these differences, one would expect our moral compass to point differently than that of the bulk of humanity.

Please seriously consider that assertion, and determine whether you wish to retract, clarify, and/or apologize for it.

Or back it up. I, personally, have no hurt feelings, and would happily partake in any serious discussion of how the morality of gamers demonstrably deviates from social norms, were such forthcoming.

However, my (unfounded) contention is that "gamer" and "moral compass" are largely or completely independent variables; thus, that selecting responses exclusively from gamers does not invalidate their moral outrage.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Quertus
…selecting responses exclusively from gamers does not invalidate their moral outrage.

I never said it did. Only that the tiny subset of gamers involved can hardly be said to represent “humanity” in any all-encompassing sense, which seemed to be the claim.

And I don’t feel it’s fair to claim it’s “intellectually dishonest” to point this out. As noted above, this thread has drawn some highly passionate and highly self-selected responses, so all that’s being represented are members of this subforum who feel strongly about these particular aspects of the setting.

As for moral compasses, that discussion can’t happen here. We have different views on some of the claims you’ve made, but those questions can’t be fully explored here, so best to leave it at that.

I will say that like Calthropstu, I like the Realms, and some of my best gaming memories have been in campaigns in that setting. It’s a little frustrating to see people mercilessly trash an entire setting—which is a spectacular example of large-scale, collaborative world-building—because they don’t like one or two elements of that setting. That’s genuinely unfair.

[Calthropstu]

As a normal person with little knowledge of magic or technology, I doubt any of the arguments presented in this thread would matter. Likewise, not knowing about the impending spellplague and the coming disaster that was 4e, most mages/clerics would be perfectly happy with Toril. After all, they had massive power, nigh infinite resources, and could exercise great authority.

The impending spellplague and the obliteration of magic is what would drive me to leave to wander the planes. Hell, I might want to wander the planes just because. I mean, why not?

What happened with 4e however, gave me massive disdain for all things wotc. WOTC screwed D&D so hard with 4e (and 5 really isn't much better from what I have seen) that I long for the days of TSR. The literature has significantly decreased in quality, and the inclusion of MtG as a D&D universe just leaves a massive foul taste in my mouth.

I mean it when I say I am done with WotC.

The spellplague was just simply bad writing. Poorly conceived, poorly written, poorly executed; the spellplague is a giant example of what not to do when creating a world catastrophe.

But the people already there? They would know none of this. As such, they wouldn't care. Ignorance is bliss as it goes.

As an honest answer, I would try to get as powerful as possible as quickly as possible then make a concerted effort to stop the spellplague. If I failed, I'd planeshift.

[Quertus]

I never said it did. Only that the tiny subset of gamers involved can hardly be said to represent “humanity” in any all-encompassing sense, which seemed to be the claim.

And I don’t feel it’s fair to claim it’s “intellectually dishonest” to point this out. As noted above, this thread has drawn some highly passionate and highly self-selected responses, so all that’s being represented are members of this subforum who feel strongly about these particular aspects of the setting.

As for moral compasses, that discussion can’t happen here. We have different views on some of the claims you’ve made, but those questions can’t be fully explored here, so best to leave it at that.

I will say that like Calthropstu, I like the Realms, and some of my best gaming memories have been in campaigns in that setting. It’s a little frustrating to see people mercilessly trash an entire setting—which is a spectacular example of large-scale, collaborative world-building—because they don’t like one or two elements of that setting. That’s genuinely unfair.

Again, I wasn't trying to claim that you were being intellectually dishonest - I was trying to warn that certain language, certain phrasings had put me in that frame of mind, and that I was having difficulty seeing past that in formulating my reply. (Contrary to my seeming lucidity, I am actually currently feverish, and having difficulty with trivial tasks, like making a sandwich, or realizing that one does not open eggs with a can opener. The comments about intellectual dishonesty were a failed attempt to explain in fewer words that, while I did not perceive any accusations of intellectual dishonesty in my reply, that I may have inadvertently put some there in subtext, because I was struggling to perceive your words in a just light.)

So, what did you say?



Denizens not leaving the realms en masse is due to authorial fiat. The number of players saying that they'd get out ASAP strongly implies that the setting is messed up.

And frankly, needing a threat behind the wall is both authorial heavy-handedness and the offensive stupidity of the realms denizens. If good gods were actually good (and tried doing good within their domains instead of trying to tear down the wall or going after Ao because either would amount to suicide by overgod), good people should happily say their prayers at night in order to empower these agents of goodness. Good humans deciding that they're getting into heaven so screw any attempt to empower divine forces of goodness don't really sound all that Good.


No, it doesn’t. The negative voices in this thread constitute a heavily biased and self-selected sample, and there’s zero justification in claiming they represent everyone who’s ever played in the Realms.

I played characters and ran campaigns in the Realms for 10 years, and none of these supposedly crippling issues was ever mentioned by anyone in all that time. Rather than sitting around trashing the setting, we had fun with our games and didn’t work ourselves into a state about any contrived philosophical ramifications.

I suppose it's a matter of degree. If anything like the proportions here had that response, then I think that it would be fair to call the exodus "en masse".

However, how people react to living there is not the same (sadly) to how they roleplay their characters. And the particulars of the question involves (as I've said) *many* reasons for people to want to flee, from the spell plague to 4e to the Wall.

Myself, I've played in FR - some good games, some not. Shrug. I'm generally ambivalent to FR. I'll attack 4e's treatment of FR just as readily as I'll attack the Wall. Myself, I am not attacking the setting as a whole - I am attacking the morality of the Wall, and I am attacking the author's treatment of the Wall.

But I think it's fair to say that between - at least - the spell plague, the transition to 4e, and the Wall, that there's lots of reasons to flee FR. Does people wanting to flee mean that "the setting is messed up"? Well, no, that doesn't necessarily logically follow. However, the number of people who have complained about the Wall *does* indicate that *something* is wrong with that particular facet of the Realm.

Again, my contention is a) the Wall, as presented, is an abomination; b) the difference in reaction between several posters and the denizens of Faerun to the Wall seems indicative of bad writing in the form of b1) poor presentation of the Wall, or b2) bad characterization of the inhabitants of Faerun.

Had it just been myself attacking the morality of the Wall? Then I wouldn't have considered the authors to have failed. I would have just considered my moral compass to be pointing differently than that of humanity in general. But that is not the case. Not everyone agrees that the Wall is an abomination, but enough do that its treatment in the Realms feels… off.

Now, are you saying that the Playground is an invalid forum in which to discuss the statistical distribution of moral compasses of the world at large relative to the gaming populous? If so, then I suppose we must agree to disagree regarding whether Playgrounders complaining of the immortality of the Wall is relevant. If not, then I fear that we are having communication issues, and must remedy those in order to to have more fruitful discourse.

[Quertus]

not knowing about the impending spellplague and the coming disaster that was 4e, most mages/clerics would be perfectly happy with Toril.

Touché. Most would not have those reasons to flee… Faerun? Toril? Now I'm confused.

[hamishspence]

Touché. Most would not have those reasons to flee… Faerun? Toril? Now I'm confused.

Faerun is the continent on which most of the stories are set, Toril is the planet.

Other notable continents - Kara-Tur (which is attached to Faerun, in the far East) Zakhara (attached to Faerun, in the South) and Maztica (across the sea from Faerun, in the West).

[Bohandas]

People be hating on the Wall of the Faithless. Is it just a general contempt for the idea of characters having to put faith in something greater than themselves, when common wisdom is that there is no such thing, assuming the right degree of optimization? ;D

It's because it's a protection racket


Ya want belief? Pull a [redacted].

Bang anyone that looks good and spawn a bunch of superheros/demigods.

...

People will absolutely belive in you whem your kid is punching down castle walls and a bad date results in divine hot electric death.

Bhaal actually did that in the Baldur's Gate games


And which book describes the afterlife in Oerth?

Manual of the Planes
Planar Handbook
Deities & Demigods
Fiendish Codex I
Fiendish Codex II
Planes of Conflict (2e)
Planes of Chaos (2e)
Planes of Law (2e)
Player's Primer to The Outlands (2e)
Faces of Evil (2e)
Guide to Hell (2e)
Hellbound (2e)
On Hallowed Ground (2e)

[Endarire]

@OP: Can you use these abilities?

-Teleport through time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b).
-Be put in stasis (however metaphysical) long enough to ride out the Spellplague.

[Bohandas]

also, isnt ravenloft a prison plane?

Dragon Magazine #353 page 39 describes it as such, yes. Although personally I would say that it's more of a nightmare plane that is also difficult to leave

[Quertus]

Faerun is the continent on which most of the stories are set, Toril is the planet.

Other notable continents - Kara-Tur (which is attached to Faerun, in the far East) Zakhara (attached to Faerun, in the South) and Maztica (across the sea from Faerun, in the West).

Ah. Thank you. So, does "Forgotten Realms" refer to Faerun, or to Toril?


Manual of the Planes
Planar Handbook
Deities & Demigods
Fiendish Codex I
Fiendish Codex II
Planes of Conflict (2e)
Planes of Chaos (2e)
Planes of Law (2e)
Player's Primer to The Outlands (2e)
Faces of Evil (2e)
Guide to Hell (2e)
Hellbound (2e)
On Hallowed Ground (2e)

So, is there sufficient evidence within those books to conclude that the gods of Oerth (etc?) get adequate worshippers without the "protection racket" of the Wall of the Faithless / without such horrific threats? That they might actually deserve their worship?

[hamishspence]

Ah. Thank you. So, does "Forgotten Realms" refer to Faerun, or to Toril?


I'd go with Toril. Faerun is a Forgotten Realm, Zakhara another, and so, on, and together they are the Forgotten Realms.

[rmnimoc]

@OP: Can you use these abilities?

-Teleport through time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b).
-Be put in stasis (however metaphysical) long enough to ride out the Spellplague.

Given that magic's about to die and the weave is about to fall apart on you, I'd be a bit hesitant to assume any spell will get you through the spellplague, so how well that would work depends on how you're going into stasis. If it's a spell, it'll probably fail at some point during the spellplague. Quintessence might work. You can't dodge the spellplague by going teleporting to the future since teleport through time only takes you back in time, not forward. If you just wanted to spend more time in Toril before everything goes to hell you could probably enjoy it a bit, but I'm not really sure how it helps in this situation since you've got to be able to cast ninth level spells to cast this so it's not like the extra prep time would help much.

[tiercel]

So, is there sufficient evidence within those books to conclude that the gods of Oerth (etc?) get adequate worshippers without the "protection racket" of the Wall of the Faithless / without such horrific threats? That they might actually deserve their worship?

Well...


Cosmologies can use the Outer Planes as the “final reward” or “eternal punishment” for the mortal creatures of the Material Plane. The nature of this reward/punishment is up to the individual Dungeon Master; it’s one of the most basic questions you’ll answer when you create your own cosmology....

In the D&D cosmology, when characters die, their souls drift toward the Outer Plane that matches their nature most closely. Souls that in life were lawful good tend to drift toward Celestia, while those that relished evil and chaos wind up in the Abyss.

While MotP is about giving a DM tools for DIY cosmology, the default afterlife system (presumably Oerth/Greyhawk at least) is presented as alignment-based, regardless of worship.

I suppose my question is, is there evidence that other published campaign settings actually require worship — at the point of a Nine-Hells-like punishment for souls who don’t devote themselves specifically to one or more deities?

[Bohandas]

I suppose my question is, is there evidence that other published campaign settings actually require worship — at the point of a Nine-Hells-like punishment for souls who don’t devote themselves specifically to one or more deities?

Not as a punishment, although IIRC either Hellbound or Guide to Hell implies that Asmodeus has some ability to snatch up souls that aren't under the protection of any deity

[PairO'Dice Lost]

As another data point regarding player opinions on the Wall, I'm currently running a FR campaign for a group of what I'd consider "non-gamers"--never played D&D before, never played the video games set in FR, don't read the wiki, don't know anything about the lore aside from what happens in game, and so on--that involved a brief visit to the Fugue Plane, because...well, short version, powerful Netherese curse, had to self-TPK and chill in the afterlife for a tenday as part of the plan to get rid of it, blah blah blah.

When I explained the afterlife system, played out the PCs getting into the City of Judgment, and let them explore for a while, all six of the players were horrified, one of them saying the Wall was the worst afterlife feature they'd ever heard of and several offering alternatives to rebuilding the wall after I explained why it was still there under Kelemvor. The villainous group they're fighting is a cult of several gods who are trying to off a few other members of the pantheon to make themselves more powerful, and after the PCs returned to life, ran into the cult again, and got a bit of a villain monologue about "The 'good' gods are actually evil and have to be destroyed for the good of everyone!" and all that jazz, several of the PCs actually agreed with that point, having seen the Wall for themselves.


It’s a little frustrating to see people mercilessly trash an entire setting—which is a spectacular example of large-scale, collaborative world-building—because they don’t like one or two elements of that setting. That’s genuinely unfair.

I wouldn't say people are trashing the Realms as a whole when they point out the practical and moral issues with the Wall. If the scenario were "Okay, so, you're plopped down in Middle Earth in TA 2941, you have a decade until Sauron declares himself and launches the War of the Ring, what do?" then most LotR fans would be perfectly justified in pointing out that the leadership of the Free Peoples are largely corrupt, ineffectual, and/or egotistical and are going to get a ton of people killed because they're totally focused on their own concerns and screw all the other countries, and that it would be much safer finding some way to leave Middle Earth than to hang around in Gondor waiting to get killed by Nazgûls or whatever...but that doesn't mean they don't like the setting as a setting, just that there's a major flaw with the "good guys" that would make living there during a major catastrophe a bad idea, and that if the common folk had a big-picture view of their leaders in particular and the state of the world in general, they'd probably want to change things too.


Ah. Thank you. So, does "Forgotten Realms" refer to Faerun, or to Toril?

I'd go with Toril. Faerun is a Forgotten Realm, Zakhara another, and so, on, and together they are the Forgotten Realms.

Yep. The official explanation for the name is that the Realms used to be connected to Earth--the Mulhorandi pantheon is explicitly the Egyptian pantheon who migrated to Toril, lots of gods from other Earth pantheons show up in various Realms pantheons, it's insinuated in a few places that the alternate Prime the elves came from is actually Earth (so our fairy tales are actually true, the elves just left), and so on--so the Realms of Toril were Forgotten from the standpoint of an Earth observer as the two worlds drifted apart, the connections between them weakened, and Earth's magic faded away.


So, is there sufficient evidence within those books to conclude that the gods of Oerth (etc?) get adequate worshippers without the "protection racket" of the Wall of the Faithless / without such horrific threats? That they might actually deserve their worship?

I suppose my question is, is there evidence that other published campaign settings actually require worship — at the point of a Nine-Hells-like punishment for souls who don’t devote themselves specifically to one or more deities?

Not all worlds' pantheons require worship to survive like Toril's gods do: some need worship for power but can survive without it indefinitely, some only need lots of faith for the more impressive miracles but can get along with minor amounts of worship day-to-day, and some don't need worship at all and just appreciate the kind words.

In fact, Oerth and Toril are outliers in having worship impact their gods at all, in that almost all of the other settings' gods predate mortals and don't require worship for any reason (Krynn's gods left the world entirely multiple times and were no worse off for it), and Oerth and pre-Time of Troubles Toril only had worship give the gods extra oomph rather than them actively needing it (Boccob the Uncaring is a greater deity despite explicitly not caring about his few worshipers), so post-ToT Toril has a unique divine situation.

In fact, the whole "faith protection racket" aspect of things is almost an accidental side effect of Ao feeling that the gods were neglecting their worshipers and imposing stricter requirements for faith on the gods:


"The tablets mean nothing," Ao said, addressing all of his gods, no matter where they were. "I kept them to remind you that I created gods to serve the Balance, not to twist it to your own ends. But this point was lost on you. You saw the tablets as a set of rules by which to play juvenile games of prestige and pomp! Then, when the rules became inconvenient, you stole them..."

"But that was--" Helm began.

"I know who took the Tablets of Fate," Ao replied, silencing Helm with a curt wave of his hand. "Bane and Myrkul have paid for their offenses with their lives. But all of you were guilty, causing worshipers to build wasteful temples, to devote themselves so slavishly to your name they could not feed their children, even to spill their own blood upon your corrupt altars - all so you could impress each other with your hold over these so-called inferior creatures. Your behavior is enough to make me wish I had never created you."

Ao paused and let his listeners consider his words. Finally, he resumed speaking. "But I did create you and not without purpose. Now, I am going to demand that you fulfill that purpose. From this day forward, your true power will depend upon the number and devotion of your followers."

From one end of the Realms to another, the gods gasped in astonishment. In far off Tsurlagoi, Talos the Raging One growled, "Depend on mortals?" The one good eye of his youthful, broad-shouldered avatar was opened wide in outrage and shock.

"Depend on them and more," Ao returned. "Without worshipers, you will wither, even perish entirely. And after what has passed in the Realms, it will not be easy to win the faith of mortals. You will have to earn it by serving them."

Had Ao not done that, the Wall could have been destroyed without screwing over the Realms, because losing Good souls to a different afterlife wouldn't have weakened the gods so e.g. the sun was in no danger of going out, and if the gods had had more of an adjustment period, they may have been able to improve their behavior toward mortals sufficiently so that if the Wall were destroyed mortals wouldn't have ditched their religions en masse. But they didn't, their relationship with mortals only marginally improved, and, well, no surprise that mortals would rather take their chances with Kelemvor's judgment than their capricious patrons' whims.


While MotP is about giving a DM tools for DIY cosmology, the default afterlife system (presumably Oerth/Greyhawk at least) is presented as alignment-based, regardless of worship.

Yep, that applies to all Planescape-connected settings (so Oerth, Toril, Krynn, and pretty much everything else except Athas and Eberron): souls naturally gravitate to an appropriate Outer Plane for their alignment and personality and follow the default petitioner setup for that plane, unless the god they worship overrides that by having different petitioners, having their divine realm on a different plane, and so forth.

[khadgar567]

Cyric wasn't the primary cause of events which (allegedly) caused Spellplague - Shar was. She was always intended to destroy the world, so - considering she's immortal, it was permanent danger to the world, Cyric or not.


Lathander also murdered the goddess of common sense (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Murdane) (which, in hindsight, may explain any oddities in behavior of faerûnians), and caused the Dawn Cataclysm (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dawn_Cataclysm).
The more I looking at the Lathander's history, the more I seen just a whitewashed Cyric...
first thanks for correction on the ********s name and if you dont stop him early enough bastard releases book of brainwashing on the contend thus bye bye to your worshipers and your divinity but if you hijack his plan after ganking him you can remake the setting from ground up and dodge the 4th and 5th editions.

[Bohandas]

I will say that like Calthropstu, I like the Realms, and some of my best gaming memories have been in campaigns in that setting. It’s a little frustrating to see people mercilessly trash an entire setting—which is a spectacular example of large-scale, collaborative world-building—because they don’t like one or two elements of that setting. That’s genuinely unfair.

Oh, that's not the only issue with the setting, but its one of the biggest one that applies from an in-setting perspective.

From an out of setting perspective there's also the fact that it contains much that is hackneyed and/or pretentious, and is overexposed due to the combination of 5e more recently and the Baldur's Gate games less recently (and also the Baldur's Gate games were overrated and not only made spellcasters functionally unplayable due to your backup pathing into fireballs, but also somehow managed to bastardize the AD&D combat rules into a low quality Diablo clone while still at the same time retaining the rules' inscrutable complexity)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Quertus
So, does "Forgotten Realms" refer to Faerun, or to Toril?

I’m using “Forgotten Realms” in the sense of the gaming world as presented in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, which is focused on Faerûn but explicitly includes the remainder of the planet.

More broadly, “Forgotten Realms” refers to the entire franchise, starting with the grey box set, all the 2E books, the 3.0 FRCS and its many supplements, on through later editions.


Originally Posted by ShurikVch
Lathander also murdered the goddess of common sense….

Not accurate. According to Faiths and Pantheons, Murdane’s death was an accidental byproduct of events which Lathander set in motion. This was a tragedy, but not deliberate and not a murder.


Originally Posted by tiercel
I suppose my question is, is there evidence that other published campaign settings actually require worship — at the point of a Nine-Hells-like punishment for souls who don’t devote themselves specifically to one or more deities?

Pathfinder has something similar, and I’ll just quote a couple passages from Planar Adventures, p. 68, regarding failed souls:


“They lived without convictions, passed through life without direction, and carried nothing with them in their passage. With no faith or passion to direct them to other planes and no will to further the Boneyard’s endless work, these souls are the flotsam of the River of Souls….

“…these lost souls wander until they find crypts and crevices where they can eternally brood on the failings of reality. Either willingly or because they lack the ability to care, these dissenting and broken souls then spend eons gradually dissipating, forever excluded from future travel along the River of Souls.”

Spending aeons as a slowly dissolving emo shade sounds like a pretty bad punishment for not having strong opinions, or so the argument could be made.


Originally Posted by PairO’DiceLost
I wouldn't say people are trashing the Realms as a whole when they point out the practical and moral issues with the Wall.


Originally Posted by Bohandas
Oh, that's not the only issue with the setting, but its one of the biggest one that applies from an in-setting perspective.

From an out of setting perspective there's also the fact that it contains much that is hackneyed and/or pretentious, and is overexposed due to the combination of 5e more recently and the Baldur's Gate games less recently…..

Looks like trashing the setting to me.

.

[Calthropstu]

Oh, that's not the only issue with the setting, but its one of the biggest one that applies from an in-setting perspective.

From an out of setting perspective there's also the fact that it contains much that is hackneyed and/or pretentious, and is overexposed due to the combination of 5e more recently and the Baldur's Gate games less recently (and also the Baldur's Gate games were overrated and not only made spellcasters functionally unplayable due to your backup pathing into fireballs, but also somehow managed to bastardize the AD&D combat rules into a low quality Diablo clone while still at the same time retaining the rules' inscrutable complexity)

I played bg2 start to finish using only spellcasters with no such issues. Did require some stupid shenanigans to defeat the demilich and mellisan, but it was fun.

Edit: As pointed out by a previous poster, it does look like bashing the setting... Which is fine. You don't like faerun. We get it. But I personally enjoyed it until the spellplague bs.

I still play in it from time to time in PF games. It's fun.

[Anymage]

I'm not the biggest fan of the setting, but that's the main reason I'm not down with how radically it changed with the transition to 4e. Leave it largely intact for the people who do like all the things intrinsic to the setting, let people with different tastes play in settings more up their alleys. Wrecking a project for people who do like it in order to try appealing to people whose minds are set is generally a losing game.

The nature of the afterlife there, OTOH, feels like a giant middle finger to the real life (lack of) religious beliefs of many real world people. It isn't unlike making the holy symbol of a nasty in-game faith look a lot like the holy symbol of a real life religious group. And the fact that good people will withhold their prayers from good gods unless threatened with the prospect of afterlife torment is bonkers. Either the gods have done a great deal to deserve such scorn to Athar-like levels (which makes a pretty strong case that they suck at being Good), or it's a heavy-handed author rant about how people are intrinsically crummy and will only do good deeds if they think there's something in it for them.

So keep your accumulated lore. Not my thing, but more power to you if you like it. It's the Wall and related elements that get me upset.

[Bohandas]

Looks like trashing the setting to me.

Yes, but not over a single issue as was the accusation


I played bg2 start to finish using only spellcasters with no such issues. Did require some stupid shenanigans to defeat the demilich and mellisan, but it was fun.

That's a good point. I suppose it could be done if you used spellcasters exclusively. But you can't have a mix of spellcasters and melee combatants as is the stereotypical standard party in D&D

EDIT:
Wait, "from start to finish"? That means you had to deop Minsc immediately, which illustrates my point.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

EDIT:
Wait, "from start to finish"? That means you had to drop Minsc immediately, which illustrates my point.I just use a character editor and revamp him as a druid.

[Bohandas]

How about killing all the gods (or maybe just hug M (if she is capable of comprehending how evil the Wall is), whatever), *then* take on AO with their combined portfolios?

Depending on the specific version of the cosmology, there may be an easier way to get rid of the wall and also get rid of Cyric and the Spellplague. Specifically, in the Spelljammer/Planescape version of the cosmology the various major campaign settings are linked. You need to go to Oerth (the world of the Greyhawk setting) and get control of two artifacts:

1.) The Godtraps- A set of binding devices notoriously used by the mad archmage Zagyg Yragerne to imprison several gods in his basement

2.) The Vast Gate- A reconfigurable portal that can open to any place in the multiverse or beyond, and which is currently stuck in a configuration leading directly to the far realm.

With these devices Cyric and Kelemvor could be neutralized (via the Godtraps) and then removed from the multiverse (by tossing them out of the Vast Gate). This effectively bypasses the wall by permanently removing the judge of the dead without his power being stolen or abdicated. Instead of replacing the judge of the dead and reforming the office, as Kelemvor tried and failed to do, the current judge of the dead is retained but rendered permanently and irrevocably incapacitated, and he and his power hidden where even the gods can never find and reassign it.

The fatal flaw in the previous attempt to abolish the Wall is that Kelemvor attempted to REFORM the system rather than DESTROY the system. Kelemvor's sense of duty doomed any chance he had to make lasting positive change. Ironically, a demon would have a better chance of permanently destroying the wall than a paladin, because they wouldn't care if the gods died or if Toril fell into chaos except maybe as something to laugh at.

[tiercel]

Pathfinder has something similar, and I’ll just quote a couple passages from Planar Adventures, p. 68, regarding failed souls:


“They lived without convictions, passed through life without direction, and carried nothing with them in their passage. With no faith or passion to direct them to other planes and no will to further the Boneyard’s endless work, these souls are the flotsam of the River of Souls….

“…these lost souls wander until they find crypts and crevices where they can eternally brood on the failings of reality. Either willingly or because they lack the ability to care, these dissenting and broken souls then spend eons gradually dissipating, forever excluded from future travel along the River of Souls.”

Spending aeons as a slowly dissolving emo shade sounds like a pretty bad punishment for not having strong opinions, or so the argument could be made.

Looking this one up myself (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/life-and-death/#What_Souls_Dont_Leave_Purgatory), the conditions are a lot stricter than “refuses to worship a god”: one has to be an active metaphysical rebel, refusing to have one’s soul take part in anything after death, or else one has to pretty much believe in nothing - not deities, not a philosophy or ethics, not even neutrality per se. Heck, the text explicitly notes “in truth, most atheists and agnostics whose souls are judged can experience the full range of afterlives just as adherents of any other belief system do, passing on to the Outer Planes best aligned with their convictions.”

Either way one pretty much has to be a full-on nihilist first and foremost, and some form of oblivion seems like the only end state; this is reserved for far, far fewer than the Wall of the Faithless, and unlike the wall, doesn’t seem to call for explicit suffering (or at least none beyond the self inflicted).

[Calthropstu]

Yes, but not over a single issue as was the accusation



That's a good point. I suppose it could be done if you used spellcasters exclusively. But you can't have a mix of spellcasters and melee combatants as is the stereotypical standard party in D&D

EDIT:
Wait, "from start to finish"? That means you had to deop Minsc immediately, which illustrates my point.

I left him in his cage. I did take jahiera, but dropped her for airie. I killed Yoshi. I took nalia as well. Edwin betrayed me, but I took him. I also took the drow cleric. I myself was a sorcerer. It was challenging in some spots, but having 6 people with summons at their disposal kicked all kinds of ass.

[Psychoalpha]

The nature of the afterlife there, OTOH, feels like a giant middle finger to the real life (lack of) religious beliefs of many real world people.

This is nonsense on the same level as RL monotheists complaining that the existence of pantheons in D&D is a slap in the face to their RL religion.

The assumption of the setting is that there are multiple gods, and that not paying at least nominal worship to one of them has consequences both for yourself and the world. Painting either of those as a slap in the face to someone's RL beliefs is taking things way, way, waaaay too personally.


And the fact that good people will withhold their prayers from good gods unless threatened with the prospect of afterlife torment is bonkers. Either the gods have done a great deal to deserve such scorn to Athar-like levels (which makes a pretty strong case that they suck at being Good), or it's a heavy-handed author rant about how people are intrinsically crummy and will only do good deeds if they think there's something in it for them.

Or that people are fundamentally lazy. Nobody just stopped doing good deeds during the period where they had an alternative, because most faiths aren't explicitly about doing good deeds. What happened was that given the choice between being a good person who does good things because they're a good person but nothing else and also taking part in a religion with other trappings, observances, rules, etc, enough Good people chose the lazy route that it became a problem. There are plenty of people RL who claim to be part of a given faith but just can't be bothered with getting up to go to church, or observing holidays, or fasting, or whatever else is attached to it outside of the core elements of it being shorthand for claiming to be a good person. :p

[tiercel]

Or that people are fundamentally lazy. Nobody just stopped doing good deeds during the period where they had an alternative, because most faiths aren't explicitly about doing good deeds. What happened was that given the choice between being a good person who does good things because they're a good person but nothing else and also taking part in a religion with other trappings, observances, rules, etc, enough Good people chose the lazy route that it became a problem. There are plenty of people RL who claim to be part of a given faith but just can't be bothered with getting up to go to church, or observing holidays, or fasting, or whatever else is attached to it outside of the core elements of it being shorthand for claiming to be a good person. :p

Given that people will apparently quite happily join and observe a religion on grounds of fellowship and/or faith alone, if gods cannot inspire a call to fellowship or faith, through fear or respect for the literal magic powers they exert through their portfolios, their avatars, their aspects, as well as those magical powers they grant to the devout to employ in their service, I would submit that it is not people who are lazy; it is the gods.

After all, a deific protection racket is less work than even a nominal amount of outreach, salesmanship, or even empathy; why waste any of those things on food? That’s the attitude that the Wall of the Faithless projects: be obedient food and jump into our godly deserving gullets, or be punished no less than if you had practiced untrammeled Evil against each other or the very nature of reality itself.

If even a temporary cessation of the Wall of the Faithless actually caused people to turn away — and quickly — from any form of deific worship, it’s not because those people were lazy, but because they had been enslaved by the Deific Mafia and then realized they’d been liberated. If the gods literally can’t inspire worship by any other means than “you must worship at least one of us or we will condone torture of you for eternity,” they are objectively terrible at being gods (never mind those who purport to be “Good”).

[ShurikVch]

Note: when a deities perishes, their portfolios go haywire (as we already seen with Mystra).
So, guess what will happen if, say, a god of the sun will die?
Faithless are endangering not just deities, but the whole world!
Is there any wonder why there are so little compassion to the victims of the Wall? Who would feel sorry for those who endangered the very existence of you, your family, friends, etc?



That's where I got the memory thing.My quote for your quote:
The old Mystra of Toril was an ally of Wee Jaz, but the new Mystra (see her entry under "The Faerûnian Powers," below) has managed to fully alienate her.That might be the part of the reason Wee Jas has taken a turn for the worse - her one good friend in the cosmos passed on, and was replaced by a berk who claimed the name but didn't pursue the same vision.



Yes, you did kinda checkmate yourself, by demonstrating immortality alternatives.O RLY?
Let's remind you:
2) The act of becoming a Lich requires certain atrocities, unspecified in later editions of D&D, but which included eating dead babies you'd poisoned for just that purpose.I pointed you to LG Liches.
What Lawful Good person will resort to poisoning babies? None!
(BTW, from where, exactly, you're pulling it? I skimmed Liches from OD&D to 5E, but didn't seen any such thing :smallconfused:)
Thus, it's completely unnecessary. And Liches are doing no more atrocities than living spellcasters of corresponding alignment.

[Psychoalpha]

Given that people will apparently quite happily join and observe a religion on grounds of fellowship and/or faith alone, if gods cannot inspire a call to fellowship or faith, through fear or respect for the literal magic powers they exert through their portfolios, their avatars, their aspects, as well as those magical powers they grant to the devout to employ in their service, I would submit that it is not people who are lazy; it is the gods.

Again, comparing the interactions of fictional mortals with the extensive systems of religion in a fantasy setting to people in the real world with its basically-just-a-social-circle setup is not a good place to start.


After all, a deific protection racket is less work than even a nominal amount of outreach, salesmanship, or even empathy; why waste any of those things on food? That’s the attitude that the Wall of the Faithless projects: be obedient food and jump into our godly deserving gullets, or be punished no less than if you had practiced untrammeled Evil against each other or the very nature of reality itself.

You clearly have some... really extreme interpretations of this stuff. You can die without the support of a lot of things, and food is only one of them. Oxygen, sleep, vital pieces of your body, etc. Choosing to interpret the need for worship to maintain themselves and their portfolios as the Gods treating humans like food is certainly one interpretation, but not one I share. To me, the faithful provide oxygen that allows the Gods to breathe and their portfolio to flourish. Start pulling the faith away and you're suffocating them, and by extension the aspects of the world they support.


If even a temporary cessation of the Wall of the Faithless actually caused people to turn away — and quickly — from any form of deific worship, it’s not because those people were lazy, but because they had been enslaved by the Deific Mafia and then realized they’d been liberated. If the gods literally can’t inspire worship by any other means than “you must worship at least one of us or we will condone torture of you for eternity,” they are objectively terrible at being gods (never mind those who purport to be “Good”).

Yeah, this again seems like it's being interpreted through a lens of contempt for gods, faith, etc in general, and the idea that being a non-believer isn't supported if you care about what happens to your character after they die. Enslaved? Really? Liberated? Really. :smallsigh:

[tiercel]

Again, comparing the interactions of fictional mortals with the extensive systems of religion in a fantasy setting to people in the real world with its basically-just-a-social-circle setup is not a good place to start.

There must be /some/ good place to start, and presumably there are those who might take offense at “only just a social circle” characterization of religious faith, real or fictional.

Putting that to one side, though, a point here is the basis for which FR canon simply asserts that, without the Wall of the Faithless, people will simply quite quickly start not really believing in gods. This would rather directly seem to imply that the ONLY thing keeping a significant number of people worshipping at all is not any sense of respect, reverence, or even fear of a god/avatars/church, but the metaphysical Sword of Damocles hanging over every mortal’s head that no matter how good a life one lives, a horrible doom awaits anyone who doesn’t pay up to a deific protection racket.




You clearly have some... really extreme interpretations of this stuff. You can die without the support of a lot of things, and food is only one of them. Oxygen, sleep, vital pieces of your body, etc. Choosing to interpret the need for worship to maintain themselves and their portfolios as the Gods treating humans like food is certainly one interpretation, but not one I share. To me, the faithful provide oxygen that allows the Gods to breathe and their portfolio to flourish. Start pulling the faith away and you're suffocating them, and by extension the aspects of the world they support.

Except there is no reason it has to work this way. In many deific systems, it doesn’t; in the FR system, it didn’t use to until Ao decided it would (see above in thread), and even then Ao could have simply decreed that in order for gods to get their necessary food/oxygen/whatever, they must actually earn it by exerting their portfolio/godly presence/own magic/church’s magic/church’s influence.

It wasn’t enough for Ao to say “mortals are just god food” (or oxygen or whatever), but that the Wall of the Faithless says that mortals who do not willingly pledge themselves as god-fuel will be tortured forever for it — failure on the part of a mortal will be punished in pretty much the harshest possible way, whereas failure of a god to attract worship despite the many tools and powers at his/her/its disposal will most likely be forgiven, given that even the most useless god will almost certainly wind up with some random worshippers if all mortals know they must worship SOMEone or suffer a Hells-like fate.

Ao made the system deliberately horrible for mortals, and any god who plays along is condoning the system. It would be one thing for a Good god to not mind a system where he/she/it provided godly benefits for mortal worshippers who willingly pledged themselves in return, but the Wall of the Faithless removes “willing” from the equation: it is deliberately coercive.



Yeah, this again seems like it's being interpreted through a lens of contempt for gods, faith, etc in general, and the idea that being a non-believer isn't supported if you care about what happens to your character after they die. Enslaved? Really? Liberated? Really. :smallsigh:

It’s not contempt for gods, as I don’t go railing against systems of gods or religion or belief in, oh, any other campaign setting. It’s contempt for gods who are so terrible at being gods that they have to depend on coercion under penalty of worse-than-death in order to maintain their seats of lofty privilege.

Take gods out of the equation for the moment: let’s say that a campaign setting had an emperor who ruled over an entire continent, and to ensure his rule remained firm, placed a curse on the entire populace and all its descendants that any subject who did not offer heartfelt actual worship to that emperor would be literally dragged to the Hells upon death to be tortured for all eternity.

I’d imagine that that almost any Good character would find this situation intolerable and would almost have to try to find a way to end the curse and/or the rule of an emperor so Evil as to emplace it. (Heck, I’d imagine most any Neutral or even Evil character would feel similarly, though “get the heck out of Dodge” or “see if I can make this sweet extortion racket work for me instead,” respectively, might also be seen as options.)

It would seem to be deliberately understating the case to say that “being a non-believer isn’t supported” in such a system; it’s not “not supported” so much as it is “results in maximal punishment.” And I don’t think it is particularly foolish to care about the ultimate fate of one’s character, much less all the NPCs and world, in a roleplaying game, especially if it is a heroic one. A character who doesn’t really care what happens to the world likely has trouble being Good at all, and in less heroic campaigns, even Neutral and Evil characters presumably care what happens to themselves.

Slavery is arguably a close analog to the situation of mortals in an FR setting which contains the Wall of the Faithless, given that mortals are coerced into worship without need for remuneration, but “extortion racket” is an even better one. —Calling “you get to keep existing” remuneration is only so in the same sense as “give Big Tony ten gold pieces every month if you wanna keep breathing, capiche?” The threat of non-existence is only a problem because the gods/Ao made it so.

[Korwin]

well, no surprise that mortals would rather take their chances with Kelemvor's judgment than their capricious patrons' whims.


This part never made sense to me, if the mortals are seeking Kelemvor's judgemnt, then why not take him as patron?
(If the goal is, to get out of their other patrons whims)

I also never got how the (low level?) mortals got all the intel about the afterlife.
Was there a world wide memo sent to them?

The wall* is simply bad writing, IMHO. And best ignored / errataed out of the background.
*like the spellplague


Btw. for the record my reason for leaving Ferun above, was because of the spellplague/4e not the wall.

[Calthropstu]

This part never made sense to me, if the mortals are seeking Kelemvor's judgemnt, then why not take him as patron?
(If the goal is, to get out of their other patrons whims)

I also never got how the (low level?) mortals got all the intel about the afterlife.
Was there a world wide memo sent to them?

The wall* is simply bad writing, IMHO. And best ignored / errataed out of the background.
*like the spellplague


Btw. for the record my reason for leaving Ferun above, was because of the spellplague/4e not the wall.

Yeah. My pf gameI am in treats spellplague/4e never existed. We play in an area created by our gm... ostensibly an autonomous colony of waterdeep. We play strictly psionic characters.

It's fun, and because it's so far from the mainland it's basically a frontier setting. The main threat comes from underdark entrances combing the area from which drow and illithid attack regularly.

So yeah, the spellplague/4e is best houseruled away or just flat out ignored.

[Quertus]

O RLY?
Let's remind you:I pointed you to LG Liches.
What Lawful Good person will resort to poisoning babies? None!
(BTW, from where, exactly, you're pulling it? I skimmed Liches from OD&D to 5E, but didn't seen any such thing :smallconfused:)
Thus, it's completely unnecessary. And Liches are doing no more atrocities than living spellcasters of corresponding alignment.

Searching old threads, I see I was told that the formula for a Lich was published in Dragon magazine.

Anyway, the logic runs like this: someone (you?) contended that the Wall was OK, because the gods needed it to survive. My response was, OK, does survival actually make committing atrocities OK? What about (evil) Liches, who have to poison & eat babies to achieve immortality? You responded that Liches have non-evil immortality alternatives (Bae, etc). Several Playgrounders and I continue to contend that the gods have non-evil non-Wall alternatives.

So, my takeaway is that, no, "survival" is insufficient justification for such atrocities.

[Psychoalpha]

Take gods out of the equation for the moment: let’s say that a campaign setting had an emperor who ruled over an entire continent, and to ensure his rule remained firm, placed a curse on the entire populace and all its descendants that any subject who did not offer heartfelt actual worship to that emperor would be literally dragged to the Hells upon death to be tortured for all eternity.

Not even comparable. But hey, sure, let's play that game:

Let's say that a campaign setting had an emperor who ruled over an entire continent, and that the rest of the world is filled with demons who want to devour every living creature in the empire. The demons are kept at bay by wards powered by the life force of the emperor, and the emperor is only able to extend his lifespan by the prayers of the people in his empire, with at least a nominal amount of meaning behind it.

Whenever someone decides not to say those prayers, the Emperor falters and the walls weaken, endangering everyone. As a result, those who are found to really, truly refuse to pray or have faith in the Emperor (with no possibility of false conviction) are thrown outside the wards, where the demons do unspeakable things to them. It's brutal and terrible, but the alternative is that the unfaithful bring about the end for everyone as their numbers mount, especially seeing others doing as they please, endangering everyone with no repercussions.

Note that worship of the Emperor is as involved or not involved as you want it to be, as little as a short prayer said before you sleep, as long as you're sincere. Sure, there are churches with all manner of rules and rites, and they might CLAIM they're the only way to truly worship, but the reality is that it costs you nothing except an act of sincere faith.

The people getting tossed outside the walls aren't being unjustly persecuted, they're being excised so that they don't poison things for everyone else. Is the Emperor evil because of it? I wouldn't think so. Whether you're good or evil comes down to a lot more than any one act or policy decision. Should he just try to be an emperor 'worthy of worship'? Sure, but no matter how worthy, there's always going to be someone who thinks they just shouldn't have to blah blah blah because reasons.


I’d imagine that that almost any Good character would find this situation intolerable and would almost have to try to find a way to end the curse

Well... sure. And I'd have no beef with people wanting to find a way to banish all the demons, or transfer the wards from the Emperor's life to something else more sustainable that didn't require such actions to keep it going. I'd have no beef with any DM wanting to run a campaign where finding a way to power the gods without worship, or one that gave the players the opportunity to push the gods into actions more worthy of worship (not that I agree that they don't already, but for the sake of argument let's pretend they aren't). Much like campaign settings, TT campaigns can make whatever changes they like in the course of their run, so... cool.

If literally anybody's response to this had been that they'd like to participate in a campaign where they had an opportunity to change the world in such a fashion that the wall was no longer necessary, I'd have been all for it. Instead it's just been various expressions at how affronted they are that it exists at all, and a bunch of 'TEAR DOWN THAT WALL' rhetoric, as if the act itself is enough to make everything better. Like the existence of the setting in that state is some kind of slap in the face, instead of just another setting with weird particulars that often don't make sense if you drill down too far.

[Anymage]

Let's say that a campaign setting had an emperor who ruled over an entire continent, and that the rest of the world is filled with demons who want to devour every living creature in the empire. The demons are kept at bay by wards powered by the life force of the emperor, and the emperor is only able to extend his lifespan by the prayers of the people in his empire, with at least a nominal amount of meaning behind it....

Let's go with your assumption.

Assume that a sizable fraction of Good people in such a setting will not say their prayers, unless compelled under pain of eternal torture.

You're either positing a setting where good people are too lazy to take a negligible amount of time to shore up the very fabric of the universe without threat of punishment (which sounds at odds with good people being the sorts to go off on heroic adventures for the cause of good, something that's supposed to be a staple of the setting), or else you're positing a setting where the emperor is so horrible that good people would rather tear down the wall and take their chances with the demons while trying to get someone more reasonable on the throne. Which of these two options is it, or do you have another reason why good people wouldn't happily support good gods and shore up the fundamentals of the universe simply because that's what good people should do?


The people getting tossed outside the walls aren't being unjustly persecuted, they're being excised so that they don't poison things for everyone else. Is the Emperor evil because of it? I wouldn't think so. Whether you're good or evil comes down to a lot more than any one act or policy decision. Should he just try to be an emperor 'worthy of worship'? Sure, but no matter how worthy, there's always going to be someone who thinks they just shouldn't have to blah blah blah because reasons.

Unfortunately the real-world examples of this are overwhelmingly political and/or religious, but try to think of the times that a group figured that their ideological enemies - or even the insufficiently ideologically pure - were harming their grand cause. Ask yourself how many don't wind up looking monstrous in historical hindsight.

If a fraction of a fraction of a percent of people think like Girard Draketooth, not looking like (and being) petty douchebags is a better move for good and most neutral gods. A fraction of a fraction of a percent of the population isn't going to meaningfully change anything by their presence or absence. If a sizable enough group of people forswears prayer that it becomes a problem, see my earlier point and explain why they'd turn their backs.

Edit: In fact, thinking of Girard Draketooth, gods in the stickverse also require dedication, worship, and souls. Somehow, there are plenty of faithful to go around that gods don't regularly risk starvation unless there's an extreme situation. If the stickverse gods can manage it without needing to apply threat of gruesome torture, you need to be working hard to justify why the realms was set up such that gods there can't.

[Telok]

Wait wait wait. Let me get this straight.

1. Big A wrote a sort of multiplayer SimEarth game. With rules. And he got some people to play.
2. The players started to game the system and min/max (wonder where we've seen that before). They didn't care that the sim sprites representing stuff in the game might have bad things happen to them.
3. Big A said they were playing the game wrong. So he locked the players in a room and made them buy food and water with in-game currency. The more the sim sprites got positive modifiers associated with a player the more game money the player got.
4. The players started to all starve?
5. Big A modded in a game-wide effect that if the sim sprites didn't give any players their in-game money then after a timer ran out the sim sprite got a massive negative modifier. Then he had to add to the sim so that all the sprites knew about this so the players would have enough game-money to buy food.
6. If that negative modifier thing gets modded back out the players will all starve.

Is that all correct?

[Bohandas]

Not even comparable. But hey, sure, let's play that game:

Let's say that a campaign setting had an emperor who ruled over an entire continent, and that the rest of the world is filled with demons who want to devour every living creature in the empire. The demons are kept at bay by wards powered by the life force of the emperor, and the emperor is only able to extend his lifespan by the prayers of the people in his empire, with at least a nominal amount of meaning behind it.

Whenever someone decides not to say those prayers, the Emperor falters and the walls weaken, endangering everyone. As a result, those who are found to really, truly refuse to pray or have faith in the Emperor (with no possibility of false conviction) are thrown outside the wards, where the demons do unspeakable things to them. It's brutal and terrible, but the alternative is that the unfaithful bring about the end for everyone as their numbers mount, especially seeing others doing as they please, endangering everyone with no repercussions.

Note that worship of the Emperor is as involved or not involved as you want it to be, as little as a short prayer said before you sleep, as long as you're sincere. Sure, there are churches with all manner of rules and rites, and they might CLAIM they're the only way to truly worship, but the reality is that it costs you nothing except an act of sincere faith.

The people getting tossed outside the walls aren't being unjustly persecuted, they're being excised so that they don't poison things for everyone else. Is the Emperor evil because of it? I wouldn't think so. Whether you're good or evil comes down to a lot more than any one act or policy decision. Should he just try to be an emperor 'worthy of worship'? Sure, but no matter how worthy, there's always going to be someone who thinks they just shouldn't have to blah blah blah because reasons.

Personally I'm more into Slaanesh

[tiercel]

Not even comparable. But hey, sure, let's play that game:

Let's say that a campaign setting had an emperor who ruled over an entire continent, and that the rest of the world is filled with demons who want to devour every living creature in the empire. The demons are kept at bay by wards powered by the life force of the emperor, and the emperor is only able to extend his lifespan by the prayers of the people in his empire, with at least a nominal amount of meaning behind it.

Stop; in this analogy, the demons are only there because of the emperor in the first place. (After all, the presumed “reality depends on the continued existence of the gods” thing —which is somewhat dubious, since FR gods have died before— and the Wall of the Faithless don’t have to exist, and didn’t use to, but only do because of Ao/the gods.)

Also, to push the analogy, the emperor has the ability to grant magical boons to those who believe and bolster his life force, but has decided to throw his people to the demons instead. He’s such a lousy emperor that as soon as anyone keeps him from even temporarily chumming his subjects as demon chow, people stop worshiping him; arguably if people only “worship” him out of fear of demons, they don’t actually believe in/worship him per se....

Also, reminds me of a couple of book series,
Namely, The Spirit Thief series, in which the analog to the emperor in this example turns out to be omnicidally crazy-evil, or even the Mistborn series, in which the actual emperor is unrepentantly evil in no small part because of the mess he made of the world.

Also? Emperors have died before and there were no demons, except for this one time when only some plot demons got in and did just enough destruction to change editions the empire before everything went back to a normal state of divine extortion.


The people getting tossed outside the walls aren't being unjustly persecuted, they're being excised so that they don't poison things for everyone else. Is the Emperor evil because of it?

Except the Emperor poisoned the world, and the poor fools getting turned into demon-chum are the ones with the audacity to find the poisoner unworthy of devotion, since he’s more interested in being Emperor forever than doing his job or even finding a way out of the demon-riddled dystopia he’s brought down on his people and lands.



If literally anybody's response to this had been that they'd like to participate in a campaign where they had an opportunity to change the world in such a fashion that the wall was no longer necessary, I'd have been all for it. Instead it's just been various expressions at how affronted they are that it exists at all, and a bunch of 'TEAR DOWN THAT WALL' rhetoric, as if the act itself is enough to make everything better. Like the existence of the setting in that state is some kind of slap in the face, instead of just another setting with weird particulars that often don't make sense if you drill down too far.

Being told that you have to worship gods because they possibly screwed up the world and more to the pont you’ll be tortured if you don’t, rather than for any positive symbiotic loop, is a slap in the face.

[Quertus]

Wait wait wait. Let me get this straight.

1. Big A wrote a sort of multiplayer SimEarth game. With rules. And he got some people to play.
2. The players started to game the system and min/max (wonder where we've seen that before). They didn't care that the sim sprites representing stuff in the game might have bad things happen to them.
3. Big A said they were playing the game wrong. So he locked the players in a room and made them buy food and water with in-game currency. The more the sim sprites got positive modifiers associated with a player the more game money the player got.
4. The players started to all starve?
5. Big A modded in a game-wide effect that if the sim sprites didn't give any players their in-game money then after a timer ran out the sim sprite got a massive negative modifier. Then he had to add to the sim so that all the sprites knew about this so the players would have enough game-money to buy food.
6. If that negative modifier thing gets modded back out the players will all starve.

Is that all correct?

Actually, I think that, for #5, one of the players modded in that game-wide effect. But otherwise yeah, I think that's right. Of course, I'm no Faerun scholar, so grain of salt, and all that.

[Bohandas]

Stop; in this analogy, the demons are only there because of the emperor in the first place. (After all, the presumed “reality depends on the continued existence of the gods” thing —which is somewhat dubious, since FR gods have died before— and the Wall of the Faithless don’t have to exist, and didn’t use to, but only do because of Ao/the gods.)

Also, to push the analogy, the emperor has the ability to grant magical boons to those who believe and bolster his life force, but has decided to throw his people to the demons instead. He’s such a lousy emperor that as soon as anyone keeps him from even temporarily chumming his subjects as demon chow, people stop worshiping him; arguably if people only “worship” him out of fear of demons, they don’t actually believe in/worship him per se....

Also, reminds me of a couple of book series,
Namely, The Spirit Thief series, in which the analog to the emperor in this example turns out to be omnicidally crazy-evil, or even the Mistborn series, in which the actual emperor is unrepentantly evil in no small part because of the mess he made of the world.

Don't forget Warhammer 40k

[Vizzerdrix]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I`d have to take Mystra`s head.

[EldritchWeaver]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I`d have to take Mystra`s head.

Compared to the "Hug Mystra" group, why the reverse stance?

[Vizzerdrix]

Compared to the "Hug Mystra" group, why the reverse stance?

See. She tends to have a beef with Gond. That doesn't sit well with me.

The machines that worshippers of Gond make are readily available for others to study and improve on. They serve as civil engineers and traveling tinkers for less fortunate communities. Gond encourages mundane tech and development for the betterment of all.

Magic, on the other hand, is hoarded by the elites. Used to subjugate and control people. In short, like the wall, it has to go. For that to happen, Mystra needs to die and be scrubbed from existence. Can`t allow this silly reincarnation business to bring her back.

[unseenmage]

See. She tends to have a beef with Gond. That doesn't sit well with me.

The machines that worshippers of Gond make are readily available for others to study and improve on. They serve as civil engineers and traveling tinkers for less fortunate communities. Gond encourages mundane tech and development for the betterment of all.

Magic, on the other hand, is hoarded by the elites. Used to subjugate and control people. In short, like the wall, it has to go. For that to happen, Mystra needs to die and be scrubbed from existence. Can`t allow this silly reincarnation business to bring her back.

As much as I appreciate Gond and find Mystra to be incompetent.. Magic can stay. it's the weave that's inefficient and cumbersome.

That and magitech's no good without the magi.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

See. She tends to have a beef with Gond. That doesn't sit well with me.

The machines that worshippers of Gond make are readily available for others to study and improve on. They serve as civil engineers and traveling tinkers for less fortunate communities. Gond encourages mundane tech and development for the betterment of all.

Magic, on the other hand, is hoarded by the elites. Used to subjugate and control people. In short, like the wall, it has to go. For that to happen, Mystra needs to die and be scrubbed from existence. Can`t allow this silly reincarnation business to bring her back.

I'd argue the problem is the other way around. Mystra's mandate is to spread the lore and use of magic as far and wide as possible, anyone with sufficient intelligence and work ethic can theoretically start learning wizardry, and there are several magocracies across Toril where magic is used for the benefit of the common people and many more places where magic wards and mythals are the only thing standing between common folk and the monsters who find them delicious.

Gond, though? His mandate is obviously not to spread technology to the masses, or it would be much more widespread than it is; even with cities opposing weapons research as too dangerous, things like crude printing presses were canonically acceptable and desired when they were invented. He doesn't seem to care about spreading his worship beyond gnomes and/or Lantan, and his clergy are more focused on wandering around sampling inventors' cool ideas than spreading either actual technology or principles of science and discovery. More damningly, he specifically gifted smoke powder to the gnomes of Lantan--and only the gnomes of Lantan--as a reward after the Time of Troubles, and he intervened to make gunpowder chemically inert so the only path to guns and such is through him.

It's entirely possible that if you took Gond out of the picture to stop being a gatekeeper/bottleneck to technological progress, and gave Mystra a decade or so to actually focus on spreading magic instead of holding back the latest Realms-Shaking Event, the Realms would start leaning more magitech-y and less Medieval and the population as a whole would be better off.


As much as I appreciate Gond and find Mystra to be incompetent.. Magic can stay. it's the weave that's inefficient and cumbersome.

What gives you the impression that it's "inefficient and cumbersome"? All of the Realms-specific magic--from Netherese spontaneous casting and 10th-level spells, to spellfire and other "raw" magic" stuff, to place magic like circle magic and Rashemi spirit magic, and so on--relies on the presence of the Weave to some degree, and the one example we have of the Weave collapsing is 4e, where magic is much reduced in power, scope, duration, and other aspects and anything more complicated than your basic blasting Evocation has long casting times, variable effectiveness, and expensive components.

In fact, whenever we see either non-Realms casters head to the Realms and use magic with the Weave or Realms-native casters going elsewhere and casting spells without the Weave, there seems to be basically no difference in the speed and efficacy of magic between the two, implying that it's able to filter Toril's ambient magic down to safer levels with no noticeable loss of power or ease of use; in computer terms, that's like running a virtual machine with identical speeds to bare-metal hardware, and that's pretty darn impressive.

Now, if you mean "cumbersome" in that Mystra can theoretically deny casting to any Weave-using caster at any time for any reason, yeah, I'll take Boccob the Uncaring any day. But Mystryl and the first Mystra never really exercised that prerogative and the second Mystra only threw it around for a short period after her ascension, so while it's definitely something every spellcaster should keep in mind, in practice it's not really an issue.

[ShurikVch]

I'd argue the problem is the other way around. Mystra's mandate is to spread the lore and use of magic as far and wide as possible, anyone with sufficient intelligence and work ethic can theoretically start learning wizardry, and there are several magocracies across Toril where magic is used for the benefit of the common people and many more places where magic wards and mythals are the only thing standing between common folk and the monsters who find them delicious.

Gond, though? His mandate is obviously not to spread technology to the masses, or it would be much more widespread than it is; even with cities opposing weapons research as too dangerous, things like crude printing presses were canonically acceptable and desired when they were invented. He doesn't seem to care about spreading his worship beyond gnomes and/or Lantan, and his clergy are more focused on wandering around sampling inventors' cool ideas than spreading either actual technology or principles of science and discovery. More damningly, he specifically gifted smoke powder to the gnomes of Lantan--and only the gnomes of Lantan--as a reward after the Time of Troubles, and he intervened to make gunpowder chemically inert so the only path to guns and such is through him.

It's entirely possible that if you took Gond out of the picture to stop being a gatekeeper/bottleneck to technological progress, and gave Mystra a decade or so to actually focus on spreading magic instead of holding back the latest Realms-Shaking Event, the Realms would start leaning more magitech-y and less Medieval and the population as a whole would be better off.Yes! All my yes!
No more of that medieval-like stasis!
Greyhawk 2000, anyone?


What gives you the impression that it's "inefficient and cumbersome"? All of the Realms-specific magic--from Netherese spontaneous casting and 10th-level spells, to spellfire and other "raw" magic" stuff, to place magic like circle magic and Rashemi spirit magic, and so on--relies on the presence of the Weave to some degreeWell. Epic Spellcasting doesn't.


and the one example we have of the Weave collapsing is 4e, where magic is much reduced in power, scope, duration, and other aspects and anything more complicated than your basic blasting Evocation has long casting times, variable effectiveness, and expensive components.It's just saying about how bad is Weave for the world's stability - tell me: could magic in Greyhawk be in turmoil from death of just one deity (let alone - from casting just one spell)?


In fact, whenever we see either non-Realms casters head to the Realms and use magic with the Weave or Realms-native casters going elsewhere and casting spells without the Weave, there seems to be basically no difference in the speed and efficacy of magic between the two, implying that it's able to filter Toril's ambient magic down to safer levels with no noticeable loss of power or ease of use; in computer terms, that's like running a virtual machine with identical speeds to bare-metal hardware, and that's pretty darn impressive.Unfortunately, when Weave users going somewhere without the Weave, they're incapable to cast Weave-dependent spells at all, and need to re-learn the magic from the very basics


Now, if you mean "cumbersome" in that Mystra can theoretically deny casting to any Weave-using caster at any time for any reason, yeah, I'll take Boccob the Uncaring any day. But Mystryl and the first Mystra never really exercised that prerogative and the second Mystra only threw it around for a short period after her ascension, so while it's definitely something every spellcaster should keep in mind, in practice it's not really an issue.It's because such punishment is ultimately pointless: all magic-deprived would just go to Shar



Let's go with your assumption.

Assume that a sizable fraction of Good people in such a setting will not say their prayers, unless compelled under pain of eternal torture.

You're either positing a setting where good people are too lazy to take a negligible amount of time to shore up the very fabric of the universe without threat of punishment (which sounds at odds with good people being the sorts to go off on heroic adventures for the cause of good, something that's supposed to be a staple of the setting), or else you're positing a setting where the emperor is so horrible that good people would rather tear down the wall and take their chances with the demons while trying to get someone more reasonable on the throne. Which of these two options is it, or do you have another reason why good people wouldn't happily support good gods and shore up the fundamentals of the universe simply because that's what good people should do?And that is the root of your mistake: who said most of population are Good?
They are Neutral!



Searching old threads, I see I was told that the formula for a Lich was published in Dragon magazine.Yes, it's correct - "Blueprint For a Lich", Dragon #26, year 1979 (earlier than Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms); the first Good-aligned Lich didn't appeared until about 11 years later.
Also, the very fact this thing was never re-published anywhere (not even in the Book of Vile Darkness) should hint us it was discarded since before the BX D&D


Anyway, the logic runs like this: someone (you?) contended that the Wall was OK, because the gods needed it to survive.The point is: it's not just about the survival of the deities in question, but also about the survival of sizable portion of the world's population, who will perish in the resulting cataclysms

My response was, OK, does survival actually make committing atrocities OK? What about (evil) Liches, who have to poison & eat babies to achieve immortality?Liches, actually, don't do it.
In "The Village of Eternal Night" quest, Belial the Lord of Fire laughed at Jhareg brothers, because slaughter of Charwood children was completely unnecessary for turning Karlat Jhareg into Lich.

You responded that Liches have non-evil immortality alternatives (Bae, etc).It's not "alternatives": Good Lich isn't a separate kind of creature, but just a Lich which is Good (and Baelnorn is just elven name for elven Good Lich).
Since no Good person would do anything truly vile for selfish reasons, it's mean there is nothing bad about becoming a Lich.
Thus, your example falls flat

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Well. Epic Spellcasting doesn't.

That's not Realms-specific, epic spellcasting works in any setting. Elven High Magic is a close analog for epic casting and does depend on the Weave, and is correspondingly more powerful, since that's basically what the Weave is for (taking Toril's abnormally-high ambient magic levels and making them safe to use for mortals).


It's just saying about how bad is Weave for the world's stability - tell me: could magic in Greyhawk be in turmoil from death of just one deity (let alone - from casting just one spell)?

Well, firstly, you can't cast level 12 spells on Oerth, so the question is kinda moot. :smallwink:

Secondly, Mystra is the most powerful deity by far in the Realms (aside from Ao). Selûne and Shar were the first two deities to exist in Realmspace, both top-tier greater deities capable of creating planets and other gods and such, and Mystra was formed when Selûne ripped out a massive amount of her own power (likely the majority of it) and chucked it at Shar to rip out a similar chunk of her power, the two of which then combined and coalesced into Mystra, a goddess powerful enough to stop a war between formerly-nigh-omnipotent creator deities on her own. Mystra has invested huge amounts of her power in mortals in the form of Magisters, dozens of Chosen, shadowstaffs and other lesser servants, caches of artifacts, and so forth and still outweighs most of the other gods power-wise. And Mystra's body stretches over the entirety of Realmspace and partly into the planes and is essentially the laws of physics given physical form.

Given all that, it's no surprise that killing the living embodiment of physics, magic, and reality itself would do some wonky things to the setting. And the incidents that caused those deaths were effectively unique:
Mystryl: Karsus (the single most power-mad archmage), of the Empire of Netheril (a nation full of power-hungry archmages) which had the most advanced understanding of magic in Torillian history (potentially tied with Imaskar, granted), researched the most powerful spell in the history of magic--over the course of a decade and using up many priceless and irreplaceable components to do so--and then cast it at just the wrong moment when Mystryl happened to be working on a very delicate operation to repair the Weave and Karsus, lacking the knowledge to do that safely, lost control and Mystryl sacrificed herself to stop something worse from happening.
Mystra 1: Ao (an overdeity previously not known to exist) demoted all the gods to mortalhood, Mystra was immediately attacked, captured, and tortured by Bane (a sworn enemy), then she effectively committed suicide-by-attempted-deicide.
Mystra 2: Wizards of the Coast mandated that Mystra die again, so she was killed in a way that is utterly implausible and makes no in-setting sense, and no amount of godly power can counter a publisher's decrees.
So, basically, despite people complaining that Mystra dies "all the time," it in fact took two completely unprecedented, completely un-prepareable-for events to kill her at all, and she immediately rewrote the laws of reality to stop the first one from ever happening again.

The very premise of this thread is asking what you would do if you knew for a fact that something was going to happen that (A) had only happened twice previously in all of recorded history under un-replicable conditions, (B) had literally zero warning it would happen, and (C) any reasonable person would conclude was highly unlikely to ever happen again. It's not like the Weave is some big glaring red button that anyone can push and destabilize the setting, or something like that.


Unfortunately, when Weave users going somewhere without the Weave, they're incapable to cast Weave-dependent spells at all, and need to re-learn the magic from the very basics

Nope, spellcasting in the Realms is completely transparent with casting elsewhere. Happens all the time when Toril natives go planes-hopping or spelljamming or when non-natives pop by for a visit, and in fact there are plenty of non-Weave users on Toril itself, like the plumaweavers and hishnashapers of Maztica, and so on.


It's because such punishment is ultimately pointless: all magic-deprived would just go to Shar

If you assume that anyone who does something bad enough to be cut off by Mystra would be willing to swear allegiance to Shar to gain Shadow Weave access, when they were likely doing something sufficiently self-centered and evil to be incompatible with submitting to Shar, sure. :smallamused:

[Calthropstu]

Yes! All my yes!
No more of that medieval-like stasis!
Greyhawk 2000, anyone?

Well. Epic Spellcasting doesn't.

It's just saying about how bad is Weave for the world's stability - tell me: could magic in Greyhawk be in turmoil from death of just one deity (let alone - from casting just one spell)?

Unfortunately, when Weave users going somewhere without the Weave, they're incapable to cast Weave-dependent spells at all, and need to re-learn the magic from the very basics

It's because such punishment is ultimately pointless: all magic-deprived would just go to Shar


And that is the root of your mistake: who said most of population are Good?
They are Neutral!


Yes, it's correct - "Blueprint For a Lich", Dragon #26, year 1979 (earlier than Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms); the first Good-aligned Lich didn't appeared until about 11 years later.
Also, the very fact this thing was never re-published anywhere (not even in the Book of Vile Darkness) should hint us it was discarded since before the BX D&D

The point is: it's not just about the survival of the deities in question, but also about the survival of sizable portion of the world's population, who will perish in the resulting cataclysms
Liches, actually, don't do it.
In "The Village of Eternal Night" quest, Belial the Lord of Fire laughed at Jhareg brothers, because slaughter of Charwood children was completely unnecessary for turning Karlat Jhareg into Lich.
It's not "alternatives": Good Lich isn't a separate kind of creature, but just a Lich which is Good (and Baelnorn is just elven name for elven Good Lich).
Since no Good person would do anything truly vile for selfish reasons, it's mean there is nothing bad about becoming a Lich.
Thus, your example falls flat

It never said what WAS required to become a lich in NWN though. Maybe the sacrifice of a single child would have been enough? Also, the phylactory itself was special. It was a powerful artifact. Rules could have been different.

In each book listing lich stats, it mentions some form of horrible ritual. I think the details were dropped on purpose because there are idiots who would actually try something like that. Given the history regarding D&D, that's not something they need. The ritual is evil. Leave it at that. People don't need to read something like "and, after stabbing a child in the back 3 times, you must carefully remove his internal organs and eat them raw, while the child still lives and is forced to watch" in a rules manual for a game.

Baelnorn are special cases. They are not liches per se, though they are similar. Baelnorn, those I have read up on anyways, are bound to serve. They have a phylactory of sorts that usually serves as a focal point for a mythal. They cannot leave the mythal. I have not read of any baelnorn outside of mythals. It is a much more powerful ritual that creates them.

I have not ever seen an example of "good lich." It's possible to make a good lich after the fact a la helm of opposite alignment. But if there is a method for good people to gain lichdom, I would think it would be more widely touted. Where are these "good liches" listed?

[ShurikVch]

That's not Realms-specific, epic spellcasting works in any setting. Elven High Magic is a close analog for epic casting and does depend on the Weave, and is correspondingly more powerful, since that's basically what the Weave is for (taking Toril's abnormally-high ambient magic levels and making them safe to use for mortals).It's a nice fan theory, but is there any proofs?


Well, firstly, you can't cast level 12 spells on Oerth, so the question is kinda moot. :smallwink:And who said you can't? Where it's written?


Secondly, Mystra is the most powerful deity by far in the Realms (aside from Ao).Oh, come on - she was nothing beside Jergal (pre-Dark Three)


Given all that, it's no surprise that killing the living embodiment of physics, magic, and reality itself would do some wonky things to the setting.Please, excuse me, but since when the "physics" and "reality itself" is in the Mystra's portfolio?


So, basically, despite people complaining that Mystra dies "all the time," it in fact took two completely unprecedented, completely un-prepareable-for events to kill her at all, and she immediately rewrote the laws of reality to stop the first one from ever happening again.Well, the Epic Spellcasting is still working just fine, so - technically - nothing prevents the second casting of Karsus's avatar...


Nope, spellcasting in the Realms is completely transparent with casting elsewhere. Happens all the time when Toril natives go planes-hopping or spelljammingLet me to disagree with you:
Firstly:
Rich Baker is THE expert on the Shadow Weave, but I certainly agree with him that it extends only as far as the Weave itself does: that is, throughout the Prime Material Plane of Toril (or the crystal sphere of Realmspace, if you prefer), NOT onto other planes. The best way to think of the Shadow Weave is this: it's the echo, or literally the shadow, of the Weave itself, and therefore can't exist where the Weave doesn't - and the Weave, in turn, is our mortal name for the flows of natural energy we call "magic" because we can harness it (spells, spell-like powers, psionics, et al being the ways in which we accomplish that harnessing), that permeate Toril and are an integral part of all life in, on, and in the atmosphere of Toril. Such natural flows, and magic, exist on other planes, and permit travel and energy flows from plane to plane, but only on Toril are the flows known as the Weave, administered by Mystra, and possess a 'Shadow Weave.' Elsewhere, there may or may not be similar 'dark counterparts' to the forces spellcasters can harness as magic, but those counterparts, if they exist, aren't linked to the Shadow Weave, part of the Shadow Weave, or governable in precisely the same way as the Shadow Weave (i.e. a character who can harness the Shadow Weave on Toril can't necessarily reliably use any similar 'dark weave' on another plane. For that matter, spellcasters using the Weave on Toril often get a few surprises when they try to use (or regain) spells while on other planes. Not everything works the same - and results can also vary over time and location, and from individual to individual. Travel away from home, as they say, is always an adventure. :}And secondly (even more damning): Dead Magic Zones in Faerûn are a places where the Weave is teared/absent; magic doesn't works there - but only Weave-dependent magic. And you know where else Weave is also absent? Everywhere - outside of Realmspace! So, apparently, faerûnian spellcasters are just really bad at traveling out of their cozy little sphere.


or when non-natives pop by for a visit, and in fact there are plenty of non-Weave users on Toril itself, like the plumaweavers and hishnashapers of Maztica, and so on.And where did I said outsiders have a problems with spellcasting in Faerûn? AFAIK, it's the other way around...


If you assume that anyone who does something bad enough to be cut off by Mystra would be willing to swear allegiance to Shar to gain Shadow Weave access, when they were likely doing something sufficiently self-centered and evil to be incompatible with submitting to Shar, sure. :smallamused:Maybe, my understanding of English isn't good enough, but I'm unable to comprehend what's you wanted to say there...



In each book listing lich stats, it mentions some form of horrible ritual. I think the details were dropped on purpose because there are idiots who would actually try something like that. Given the history regarding D&D, that's not something they need. The ritual is evil. Leave it at that. People don't need to read something like "and, after stabbing a child in the back 3 times, you must carefully remove his internal organs and eat them raw, while the child still lives and is forced to watch" in a rules manual for a game.In each book?

LICHES: These skeletal monsters are of magical origin, each Lich formerly being a very powerful Magic-User or Magic-User/Cleric in life, and now alive only by means of great spells and will because of being in some way disturbed. A Lich ranges from 12th level upwards, typically being 18th level of Magic-Use. They are able to employ whatever spells are usable at their appropriate level, and in addition their touch causes paralyzation, no saving throw. The mere sight of a Lich will send creatures below 5th level fleeing in fear.
A lich exists because of its own desires and the use of powerful and arcane magic. The lich passes from a state of humanity to a non-human, nonliving existence through force of will. It retains this status by certain conjurations, enchantments, and a phylactery. A lich is most often encountered within its hidden chambers, this lair typically being in some wilderness area or vast underground labyrinth, and in any case both solidly constructed of stone and very dark. Through the power which changes this creature from human to lich, the armor class becomes the equivalent of +1 plate armor and + 1 shield (armor class 0). Similarly, hit dice are 8-sided, and the lich can be affected only by magical attack forms or by monsters with magical properties or 6 or more hit dice.
Liches were formerly ultra powerful magic-users or magic-user/clerics of not less than 18th level of magic-use. Their touch is so cold as to cause 1-10 points of damage and paralyze opponents who fail to make their saving throw. The mere sight of a lich will cause any creature below 5th level (or 5 hit dice) to flee in panic from fear. All liches are able to use magic appropriate to the level they had attained prior to becoming non-human.
The following spells or attack forms have no effect on liches: charm, sleep, enfeeblement, polymorph, cold, electricity, insanity or death spells/symbols.
Description: A lich appears very much as does a wight or mummy, being of skeletal form, eyesockets mere black holes with glowing points of light, and garments most often rotting (but most rich).
A lich is a powerful undead monster of magical origin. It looks like a skeleton wearing fine garments, and was once an evil and chaotic magic-user or cleric of level 21 or greater (often 27-36). A lich is still able to use spells as it did while alive, so is extremely dangerous.
The very sight of a lich causes fear in all characters below 5th level (no saving throw). Its merest touch causes 1-10 points ofdamage, and can paralyze any creature for 1-100 days (though a saving throw applies, and the paralysis is magically dispellable).
Before any encounter with a lich, the DM should select spells for the creature. This should be done with care, as a lich is extremely intelligent and uses them to its best advantage. Note that morale is given as 10, but a lich flees if in actual danger. A lich is not normally found wandering, but instead remains in or very near a well-defended lair. Outside of its lair, a lich always carries 2-5 powerful magic items to be used in case of trouble. You should choose these, not randomly determine them. Within its lair, a lich has 4-32 additional temporary magic items (or more), plus the amounts of coins, gems, and jewelry given for Treasure Type H (but at 90% chance for each type). The number and severity of traps and other dangers to intruders should be appropriate to protect such a hoard.
Liches are undead, and can be Turned (but not destroyed) by clerics. They are immune to charm, sleep, feeblemind, polymorph, cold, lightning, and death spells, and can only be harmed by magical weapons. They are also immune to the effects of all spells of less than 4th level.
A magic-user lich normally has 1-2 spells on it of permanent nature-most often detect invisible or fly.
A cleric lich normally has 3-12 types of other undead nearby, acting as servants. A full lair of each type (maximum number appearing) is usually present.
Either type of lich can summon other powerful undead for aid. The summons can be made simply by concentrating, and the creature(s) responding arrive 1-100 rounds later, depending on their distance. The summons may be made as often as desired, but any one type of creature will respond only once per day at most. To randomly determine the creatures appearing in answer to the summons, roll 1d20 and refer to the following table. Roll again if a type of creature has already responded that day.
A lich is a powerful undead monster of magical origin. It looks like a skeleton wearing fine garments, and was once an evil and chaotic magic-user or cleric of level 21 or greater (often 27-36). A lich is still able to use spells as it did while alive, so it is extremely dangerous. A lich is not normally found wandering, but instead remains in or very near a well-defended lair. Such a lair might be a dungeon, catacomb, tomb, or necropolis ("city of the dead").
The very sight of a lich causes fear in all characters below 5th level (no saving throw). Its merest touch causes 1d10 points of damage, and can paralyze any creature for 1d100 days (though a saving throw applies, and the paralysis is magically dispellable).
Before any encounter with a lich, the DM should select spells for the creature. This should be done with care, as a lich is extremely intelligent and uses them to its best advantage. Note that the lich's morale is given as 10, but a lich flees if in actual danger.
Liches are undead, and can be turned (but not destroyed) by clerics. They are immune to charm, sleep, feeblemind, polymorph, cold, lightning, and death spells, and can be harmed only by magical weapons. They are also immune to the effects of all spells of less than 4th level.
Outside of its lair, a lich always carries 1d4 +1 powerful magical items to be used in case of trouble. You should choose these, not randomly determine them. Within its lair, a lich has 4d8 additional temporary magical items (or more), plus the amounts of coins, gems, and jewelry given for Treasure Type H in Chapter 16 (but at 90% chance for each type). The number and severity of traps and other dangers to intruders should be appropriate to protect such a hoard.
A magic-user lich normally has ld2 spells on it of permanent nature—most often detect invisible or fly.
A clerical lich normally has 3d4 types of other undead nearby, acting as servants. A full lair of each type (maximum number appearing) is usually present.
Either type of lich can summon other powerful undead for aid. The summons can be made simply by concentrating, and the creature(s) responding arrive 1d100 rounds later, depending on their distance. The summons may be made as often as desired, but any one type of creature will respond only once per day at most. To randomly determine the creatures appearing in answer to the summons, roll 1d20 and refer to the table. Roll again if a type of creature has already responded that day.
Liches are master villains, coordinating armies and spy-networks made up of the undead. Each one has its own goal: One may want to achieve true Immortality, one may serve an evil Immortal of Entropy, one may wish to transform the entire world into a horrid playground for the undead. Each lich in a campaign should have its own name, style, and motivation.
Terrain: Ruins.
A lich was originally a wizard or priest of at least 18th level. The creatures are so powerful they continuing to live after death. They are gaunt, skeletal creatures whose black, empty eyesockets contain pinpoints of light that serve the creatures as eyes. A lich can exist for centuries; its will drives it to master new magics. It avoids combat but is powerful in battle.
The lich is, perhaps, the single most powerful form of undead known to exist. They seek to further their own power at all costs and have little or no interest in the affairs of the living, except where those affairs interfere with their own.
A lich greatly resembles a wight or mummy, being gaunt and skeletal in form. The creature's eye sockets are black and empty save for the fierce pinpoints of light which serve the lich as eyes. The lich can see with normal vision in even the darkest of environments but is unaffected by even the brightest light . An aura of cold and darkness radiates from the lich which makes it an ominous and fearsome sight. They were originally wizards of at least 18th level, Liches are often (75%) garbed in the rich clothes of nobility. If not so attired, the lich will be found in the robes of its former profession. In either case, the clothes will be tattered and rotting with a 25% chance of being magical in some way.
Habitat/Society: Liches are usually solitary creatures. They have cast aside their places as living beings by choice and now want as little to do with the world of men as possible. From time to time, however, a lich's interest in the world at large may be reawakened by some great event of personal importance.
A lich will make its home in some ominous fortified area, often strong keep or vast subterranean crypt.
When a lich does decide to become involved with the world beyond its lair, its keen intelligence makes it a dangerous adversary. In some cases, a lich will depend on its magical powers to accomplish its goals. If this is not sufficient, however, the lich is quite capable, animating a force of undead troops to act on its behalf. If such is the case, the lich's endless patience and cunning more than make up for the inherent disadvantages of the lesser forms of undead which it commands.
Although the lich has no interest in good or evil as we understand it, the creature will do whatever it must to further its own causes. Since it feels that the living an of little importance, the lich is often viewed as evil by those who encounter it. In rare cases, liches of a most unusual nature can be found which are of any alignment. The lich can exist for centuries without change. Its will drives it onward to master new magics and harness mystical powers not available to it in its previous life. So obsessed does the monster become with its quest for power that it often forgets its former existence utterly. Few liches call themselves by their old names when the years have drained the last vestiges of their humanity from them. Instead, they often adopt pseudonyms like "the Black Hand" or "the Forgotten King." Learning the true name of a lich is rumored to confer power over the creature.
Ecology: The lich is not a thing of this world. Although it was once a living creature, it has entered into an unnatural existence. In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftsmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard. Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When next the moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state. A system shock survival throw is required, with failure indicating an error in the creation of the potion which kills the wizard and renders him forever dead.
A lich is an undead spellcaster created by means of an ancient ritual. Wizards and other arcane spellcasters who choose this path to immortality escape death by becoming undead, but prolonged existence in this state often drives them mad.
Liches are evil arcane masterminds that pursue the path of undeath to achieve immortality. They are cold, scheming creatures who hunger for ever-greater power, long-forgotten knowledge, and the most terrible of arcane secrets.
Some liches know a ritual that sustains them beyond destruction by tying their essence to a phylactery. When a lich who has performed this ritual is reduced to 0 hit points, its body and possessions crumble into dust, but it is not destroyed. It reappears (along with its possessions) in 1d10 days within 1 square of its phylactery, unless the phylactery is also found and destroyed.
Where?!. Where is the "horrible ritual"? I don't seen it!


I have not read of any baelnorn outside of mythals.Well, Baelnorn entries in the Monsters of Faerûn and the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One are have no mentions of mythals (Although I don't remember such statements even in the Ruins of Myth Drannor or Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves...)


I have not ever seen an example of "good lich." It's possible to make a good lich after the fact a la helm of opposite alignment. But if there is a method for good people to gain lichdom, I would think it would be more widely touted. Where are these "good liches" listed?In the Monstrous Manual (1993), Monsters of Faerûn, and Libris Mortis.

[Calthropstu]

It's a nice fan theory, but is there any proofs?

And who said you can't? Where it's written?

Oh, come on - she was nothing beside Jergal (pre-Dark Three)

Please, excuse me, but since when the "physics" and "reality itself" is in the Mystra's portfolio?

Well, the Epic Spellcasting is still working just fine, so - technically - nothing prevents the second casting of Karsus's avatar...

Let me to disagree with you:
Firstly:And secondly (even more damning): Dead Magic Zones in Faerûn are a places where the Weave is teared/absent; magic doesn't works there - but only Weave-dependent magic. And you know where else Weave is also absent? Everywhere - outside of Realmspace! So, apparently, faerûnian spellcasters are just really bad at traveling out of their cozy little sphere.

And where did I said outsiders have a problems with spellcasting in Faerûn? AFAIK, it's the other way around...

Maybe, my understanding of English isn't good enough, but I'm unable to comprehend what's you wanted to say there...


In each book?

Where?!. Where is the "horrible ritual"? I don't seen it!

Well, Baelnorn entries in the Monsters of Faerûn and the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One are have no mentions of mythals (Although I don't remember such statements even in the Ruins of Myth Drannor or Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves...)

In the Monstrous Manual (1993), Monsters of Faerûn, and Libris Mortis.

huh. I could have sworn it was in all 3 entries I read including the 2e, 3e and 3.5 e. But that 1993 one is definitely the 2e entry. I delved further, and apparently the ritual includes imbibing poison and anointing yourself with a mixture made from a fresh heart and imbuing it with necromancy.
It is the "fresh heart" that causes concern.

Now, rules lawyers might say "Hah, it can be an animal heart. Killing animals isn't evil." But the intent is ignored with that interpretation. This is described as pure evil, so it's probably a humanoid heart that is required. And since it needs to be fresh, murder is required. So basically, kill someone to keep yourself a walking corpse.
Good liches are mentioned, I can't find an example of one though.

All of the baelnorns I could originally find were tied to mythals. On more careful examination, however, I found the srinshee who predates the mythals and helped lead the effort to create it. That explains why each mythal had a baelnorn watcher tied to the control gem.
Hmmm. It also appears some have been created spontaneously by the Seldarine. Interesting.

[CIDE]

Since it's tied to a bit of what's going on how exactly would an Artificer fair in all this? Is their whole schtick going to be stuck relying on the weave while in the realms?

[hamishspence]

All of the baelnorns I could originally find were tied to mythals. On more careful examination, however, I found the srinshee who predates the mythals and helped lead the effort to create it.

Mythals might have been associated with Mythanatar, who. devised the Myth Drannor mythal - but plenty existed before him - they were just called something different before him.

The Dracorage Mythal, for example, might not have been called exactly that when it was created, some 25,000+ years before the present era of Faerun - but it was still the same kind of magic.

[Quertus]

For that matter, spellcasters using the Weave on Toril often get a few surprises when they try to use (or regain) spells while on other planes. Not everything works the same - and results can also vary over time and location, and from individual to individual. Travel away from home, as they say, is always an adventure. :}

Tbh, this doesn't sound any different from any other mage changing worlds / GMs.

Studying this phenomenon is no small part of what led to Quertus (my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named) becoming the Wizard he is today.

[rmnimoc]

Well, the Epic Spellcasting is still working just fine, so - technically - nothing prevents the second casting of Karsus's avatar...
Didn't Mystra basically take that spell and just toss it out of reality or something? Granted that makes zero sense to me, but who am I to tell a goddess of magic what she can or can't do with magic. I think it was mentioned in Powers and Pantheons, but my copy of that is long lost and my memories of it aren't exactly perfect.


Let me to disagree with you:
Firstly:And secondly (even more damning): Dead Magic Zones in Faerûn are a places where the Weave is teared/absent; magic doesn't works there - but only Weave-dependent magic. And you know where else Weave is also absent? Everywhere - outside of Realmspace! So, apparently, faerûnian spellcasters are just really bad at traveling out of their cozy little sphere.
Apparently Elminster regularly popped into our world to bum beer from Ed Greenwood until TSR got worried kids would go looking for portals and get hurt or killed and they'd get sued. If Elminster can cast magic here, then either Mystra stretches to this world, Elminster carries the weave with him everywhere he goes (it's possible, he's rather important to Mystra, he carries a bunch of Mystra's power with him, and he's fairly impressive as far as wizards go), or weave-based magic works without the weave. It could be any of them really, since apparently Earth and Toril were connected at one point.


Where?!. Where is the "horrible ritual"? I don't seen it!
I'm not really sure what the horrible ritual is, but I seem to recall the d20SRD saying that a lich's alignment is "Any Evil" and and that "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character". Not sure how relevant that is, but I figured I'd mention it.

[ShurikVch]

huh. I could have sworn it was in all 3 entries I read including the 2e, 3e and 3.5 e. But that 1993 one is definitely the 2e entry. I delved further, and apparently the ritual includes imbibing poison and anointing yourself with a mixture made from a fresh heart and imbuing it with necromancy.
It is the "fresh heart" that causes concern.

Now, rules lawyers might say "Hah, it can be an animal heart. Killing animals isn't evil." But the intent is ignored with that interpretation. This is described as pure evil, so it's probably a humanoid heart that is required. And since it needs to be fresh, murder is required. So basically, kill someone to keep yourself a walking corpse.Is it from the Van Richten's Guide to Liches?
Note: referring to Ravenloft materials may be not the best idea, because the local Undead always was "a little different"
At the very least, Aumvor the Undying (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Aumvor) - despite being horrible villain - did no such thing: his lichdom was a Contingency


Good liches are mentioned, I can't find an example of one though.OK, Ezzat from The Ruins of Undermountain II is Neutral Good; and Dethed from Netheril: Empire of Magic - Chaotic Neutral



Didn't Mystra basically take that spell and just toss it out of reality or something? Granted that makes zero sense to me, but who am I to tell a goddess of magic what she can or can't do with magic. I think it was mentioned in Powers and Pantheons, but my copy of that is long lost and my memories of it aren't exactly perfect.That's the thing: the original Karsus's avatar was made in Arcane Age magical system (spontaneous, point-based).
By changing the magic system, Mystra turned all the old spells into useless gibberish.
But Epic Spellcasting is able to reproduce any spell - no limits...


Apparently Elminster regularly popped into our world to bum beer from Ed Greenwood until TSR got worried kids would go looking for portals and get hurt or killed and they'd get sued. If Elminster can cast magic here, then either Mystra stretches to this world, Elminster carries the weave with him everywhere he goes (it's possible, he's rather important to Mystra, he carries a bunch of Mystra's power with him, and he's fairly impressive as far as wizards go), or weave-based magic works without the weave. It could be any of them really, since apparently Earth and Toril were connected at one point.You're forgetting the fact Elminster have Epic Spellcasting - he don't need the Weave for his magic!


I'm not really sure what the horrible ritual is, but I seem to recall the d20SRD saying that a lich's alignment is "Any Evil" and and that "The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character". Not sure how relevant that is, but I figured I'd mention it.And despite that, they published Monsters of Faerûn, which have Baelnorn and Archlich under the "Lich, Good" header; and later - Good Lich among the "Lich Variants" in the Libris Mortis...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It's a nice fan theory, but is there any proofs?

It's not a fan theory, it's the literal definition of the Weave you'll find in every FR book. Every inch of Toril is infused with oodles of raw magic, but locked up in such a way that it can't easily be accessed by mortals--and even if you can acccess it it's incredibly dangerous and uncontrollable--so the Weave serves as a conduit to allow that energy to be used.


And who said you can't? Where it's written?

...because 10th-, 11th-, and 12th-level spells aren't a default feature of the magic system, they're a form of epic-level-equivalent magic invented and used solely by Netherese arcanists.

That's like asking where it's written that a Wizard of the White Robes can't draw on Solinari's power outside of Krynn. Different crystal spheres have different laws of magic, that's just how it works and "But it doesn't say I can't!" doesn't fly.

(And before you ask, yes, it is made explicit that a Krynnish wizard can't draw on his moon outside of Krynnspace.)


Oh, come on - she was nothing beside Jergal (pre-Dark Three)

Hardly. The gods of murder, death, and "other fell forces" were explicitly created as a byproduct of Selûne and Shar fighting one another, to include Jergal, whereas Mystryl was created from the goddesses themselves. Jergal had enough power that he could divide it out to the Dead Three and make intermediate-to-greater deities out of them and still have enough power left to remain a demigod, but Mystra has a full half of her power invested in Azuth, the Magister, the Chosen, the shadowstaves, a bunch of artifacts, etc. and is still a powerful greater deity in that weakened state.


Please, excuse me, but since when the "physics" and "reality itself" is in the Mystra's portfolio?

Every atom in Realmspace is infused with magical power, which is and/or connects to Mystra's body, and Mystra can change the way magic functions at a whim. "Physics" isn't an official portfolio item, but it's as close as makes no difference.


Well, the Epic Spellcasting is still working just fine, so - technically - nothing prevents the second casting of Karsus's avatar...

No, nothing prevents someone from inventing an epic spell with similar effects to Karsus's avatar. But just as there's a massive difference between an hypothetical epic fireball spell that deals 10d6 fire damage in a 20-foot-radius sphere (but requires an epic spell slot and a DC 19 Spellcraft check to cast and 170,000 gp and 6,840 XP to research) and a fireball spell (a plain ol' 3rd-level spell), there's a massive difference between a 12th-level spell and an epic spell.

Karsus's avatar was just barely within the reach of a 41st-level Karsus, the most powerful Netherese Archwizard by far; an epic spellcasting versoin isn't getting cast by anyone any time soon.


Firstly:
Not everything works the same - and results can also vary over time and location, and from individual to individual. Travel away from home, as they say, is always an adventure. :}

I assume you're trying to claim that that line means that Weave-based spellcasters' magic stops working outside of Toril, but (A) the earlier portion of that quote makes it clear that non-Weave flows of magical energy exist elsewhere and are accessed in the same ways and (B) the "results vary" part is referring to the fact that magic has some sight variations on different planes, such as 2e clerics being weaker on the Outer Planes depending on how many planes they are away from their patron's home plane, 3e planes having Enhanced and Impeded Magic traits, and so forth.

Nothing in that quote implies a Torillian wizard taking a trip to Oerth or vice versa would have any difficulties, and given that (as rmnimoc noted) Elminster has canonically traveled to Krynn, Oerth, and Earth and had no issues using magic on any of those worlds, we know that that's explicitly not the case.


And secondly (even more damning): Dead Magic Zones in Faerûn are a places where the Weave is teared/absent; magic doesn't works there - but only Weave-dependent magic. And you know where else Weave is also absent? Everywhere - outside of Realmspace! So, apparently, faerûnian spellcasters are just really bad at traveling out of their cozy little sphere.

Weave-based magic doesn't work in dead magic zones because, as mentioned above, the raw magic of Toril is inaccessible without using the Weave (or an equivalent like the Shadow Weave) as an intermediary. Raw magic in other crystal spheres is accessible without any such intermediary, so no Weave is needed there.

It's like trying to access water in different environments. If you're in the desert, you need to dig into the sand, set up some sort of condenser, wait for the right environmental conditions, and so on, but if you're on the ocean you can just dunk a cup overboard and fill it up. A desert nomad on a sailing ship can (after presumably being incredibly seasick) can fill a cup of water just as well as a sailor, and a sailor in the desert can dig a hole in the sand just fine.


Maybe, my understanding of English isn't good enough, but I'm unable to comprehend what's you wanted to say there...

My point was that you just assume any caster would be happy to start worshiping Shar on a whim, but Shar is an evil goddess of entropy and oblivion. Good casters aren't going to swear devotion to Shar to get their magic access back, and evil casters who don't already worship Shar either are already serving a dark god/demon prince/etc. and so can't switch allegiance to Shar or are trying to make it on their own and aren't going to swear allegiance to anyone, Shar included. So Mystra cutting someone off is actually a legitimate concern because the alternative is highly non-trivial to access.


Didn't Mystra basically take that spell and just toss it out of reality or something? Granted that makes zero sense to me, but who am I to tell a goddess of magic what she can or can't do with magic. I think it was mentioned in Powers and Pantheons, but my copy of that is long lost and my memories of it aren't exactly perfect.

More specifically, she changed the way the Weave worked so that the Netherese methods of spellcasting (pulling arcs directly out of the Weave to cast spells without preparation, casting spells of 10th-level or higher, and similar) no longer functioned. In computer terms, the Netherese were exploiting bugs and security holes to get root access to the Weave network and do lots of things they shouldn't have been able to do, but after Karsus hacked Mystra's account she patched all the servers so none of their tricks worked anymore.

[rmnimoc]

That's the thing: the original Karsus's avatar was made in Arcane Age magical system (spontaneous, point-based).
By changing the magic system, Mystra turned all the old spells into useless gibberish.
But Epic Spellcasting is able to reproduce any spell - no limits...
I thought she did something specific to stop that spell forever in addition to changing the way magic worked.


You're forgetting the fact Elminster have Epic Spellcasting - he don't need the Weave for his magic!
You might think that, but I did actually consider it. I discounted that because he couldn't cast any spell more complicated than a cantrip without going temporarily insane after the Weave fell apart during the spellplague. If he didn't need the Weave thanks to epic magic, why'd he go insane trying to cast spells without the Weave (Elminster Must Die)?


It's like trying to access water in different environments. If you're in the desert, you need to dig into the sand, set up some sort of condenser, wait for the right environmental conditions, and so on, but if you're on the ocean you can just dunk a cup overboard and fill it up. A desert nomad on a sailing ship can (after presumably being incredibly seasick) can fill a cup of water just as well as a sailor, and a sailor in the desert can dig a hole in the sand just fine.
I'm not sure how much experience nomads have with salt-water. They'd probably try to drink it and die of dehydration. Which actually still fits the analogy pretty well. The sailor can dig a hole, but if the nomad tries to drink the sea without the right tools (something to desalinate the water - the weave in this analogy) he's going to have a pretty short trip.

[Quertus]

You might think that, but I did actually consider it. I discounted that because he couldn't cast any spell more complicated than a cantrip without going temporarily insane after the Weave fell apart during the spellplague. If he didn't need the Weave thanks to epic magic, why'd he go insane trying to cast spells without the Weave (Elminster Must Die)?

I'm not sure how much experience nomads have with salt-water. They'd probably try to drink it and die of dehydration. Which actually still fits the analogy pretty well. The sailor can dig a hole, but if the nomad tries to drink the sea without the right tools (something to desalinate the water - the weave in this analogy) he's going to have a pretty short trip.

I've seen plenty of examples of characters from FR traveling to other worlds, and finding that their magic still works (EDIT - although their FR-specific tricks, like 12th level spells, probably wouldn't work). Other than the *entire nations* that keep getting imported to (or exported from) FR, are there any specific examples of characters from other worlds traveling to Toril, for us to examine? (My own personal gaming experience says that Wizards from other worlds can cast just fine on Toril, but my GMs could have just been wrong *gasp*)

[Coidzor]

Checking around, it seems that no notable events happened between 1365 and the start of the Spellplague, so other than events that were ongoing at the time and continued up to the start of the Spellplague, there's no huge problems that would interfere with acquiring power the old-fashioned way. A decade is more than enough time to hit level 20 or even get a respectable distance into epic levels.

I must admit, though, I'm somewhat surprised no one mentioned going to Sigil as a means by which to avoid the Spellplague.

As for the subject of leaving Toril due to the gods, even laying aside the subject of morality or their fitness as objects of worship, the gods of Forgotten Realms are active and dangerous and would be especially so to someone from Earth who was actively acquiring power quickly, even if their intentions were just to leave Toril as quickly and safely as possible.

Simply knowing about Shar and Cyric's plan to kill Mystra and thinking about it could alert one or more of those deities and paint a massive target on a person, though, I must admit, I'm a bit rusty when it comes to the subject of the rules when it comes to gods' precognition and awareness when it comes to them and/or their portfolios and domains.

[EldritchWeaver]

No, nothing prevents someone from inventing an epic spell with similar effects to Karsus's avatar. But just as there's a massive difference between an hypothetical epic fireball spell that deals 10d6 fire damage in a 20-foot-radius sphere (but requires an epic spell slot and a DC 19 Spellcraft check to cast and 170,000 gp and 6,840 XP to research) and a fireball spell (a plain ol' 3rd-level spell), there's a massive difference between a 12th-level spell and an epic spell.

Karsus's avatar was just barely within the reach of a 41st-level Karsus, the most powerful Netherese Archwizard by far; an epic spellcasting versoin isn't getting cast by anyone any time soon.

Epic spellcasting so broken, that replicating any kind of spell can be mitigated down to DC 0. I think it involves researching an Int boost spell, which after you cast it, allows you to research a better version for the same non-cost. Cast it and research another improved version and so on, until you can research any kind of epic spell on the fly, if you still need something new.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Simply knowing about Shar and Cyric's plan to kill Mystra and thinking about it could alert one or more of those deities and paint a massive target on a person, though, I must admit, I'm a bit rusty when it comes to the subject of the rules when it comes to gods' precognition and awareness when it comes to them and/or their portfolios and domains.

It's a bit vague, but essentially they know about "anything that impacts their portfolio unless a more powerful god prevents them from finding out about it," which is suitably broad and vague, and greater deities know about things multiple weeks in advance.

Of course, if they were actually using those rules, Shar's stupid plan would never have happened because (A) "Mystra dying and magic going haywire" is firmly within Mystra's portfolio and (B) neither Shar nor Cyric nor any of their allied gods are of a higher divine rank than Mystra, so who knows how things would work out for our poor Earthling. :smallamused:


Epic spellcasting so broken, that replicating any kind of spell can be mitigated down to DC 0. I think it involves researching an Int boost spell, which after you cast it, allows you to research a better version for the same non-cost. Cast it and research another improved version and so on, until you can research any kind of epic spell on the fly, if you still need something new.

The Int-boost feedback loop is for casting spells of increasing DC; that doesn't help with reducing the research cost to 0. The epic spell DC mitigations involve taking damage (capped by your HD), burning XP (bad idea if you're casting a bunch in sequence), increasing the casting time (hard cap), or adding ritual participants. Only the last one is uncapped and can be used for the kind of feedback loop you're talking about, but that requires having tons of nonepic casters at your beck and call to help with those.

Considering that the Netherese, Imaskari, and other uber-archmages we're talking about tended to not even trust single apprentices, much less hordes of lesser casters who might potentially steal their secrets to give to their rivals, epic spellcasting is a poor substitute for traditional spells which can be researched much faster and cheaper and cast entirely on your own.

[unseenmage]

I do wonder which gods specifically would try to mess with an IRL meta knowledge using person rapidly acquiring power with the express purpose of GTFO tye Realms though?

And which god one could appeal to for any kind of legit protection?

[TheCount]

Of course, if they were actually using those rules, Shar's stupid plan would never have happened because (A) "Mystra dying and magic going haywire" is firmly within Mystra's portfolio and (B) neither Shar nor Cyric nor any of their allied gods are of a higher divine rank than Mystra, so who knows how things would work out for our poor Earthling. :smallamused:

or adding ritual participants. Only the last one is uncapped and can be used for the kind of feedback loop you're talking about, but that requires having tons of nonepic casters at your beck and call to help with those.

Considering that the Netherese, Imaskari, and other uber-archmages we're talking about tended to not even trust single apprentices, much less hordes of lesser casters who might potentially steal their secrets to give to their rivals, epic spellcasting is a poor substitute for traditional spells which can be researched much faster and cheaper and cast entirely on your own.


I do wonder which gods specifically would try to mess with an IRL meta knowledge using person rapidly acquiring power with the express purpose of GTFO tye Realms though?

And which god one could appeal to for any kind of legit protection?

1st: Ao seems the most likely subject to block other gods' porfolio sense, i mean, its like he wants the realm in constant chaos, while having as many ways to deny that statement as possible

for the spellcasting, brainwashed apprentices? i mean, you could start a magic school, with the initation a single command of "follow the given instructuions after command word XYZ" then, when you want to cast these spells, call every student, maybe teachers you trust (brainwashed or not) and there is at least a 100 spellcasters of varying levels..... possibly every one of them supported by CL boosters.

as for protection? well.... mystra would be nice, alas, she is busy and probably wouldnt belive you....
Maybe one of the more reasonable gods.... but every phanteon has its problems...

for a story like this, i recommend: In my Times of Troubles. I like it, and thats all im saying about it. im terrible giving long explanations/desriptions

[Bohandas]

In each book?

Originally Posted by Supplement I Greyhawk (1975)
LICHES: These skeletal monsters are of magical origin, each Lich formerly being a very powerful Magic-User or Magic-User/Cleric in life, and now alive only by means of great spells and will because of being in some way disturbed. A Lich ranges from 12th level upwards, typically being 18th level of Magic-Use. They are able to employ whatever spells are usable at their appropriate level, and in addition their touch causes paralyzation, no saving throw. The mere sight of a Lich will send creatures below 5th level fleeing in fear.
Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual (1977)
A lich exists because of its own desires and the use of powerful and arcane magic. The lich passes from a state of humanity to a non-human, nonliving existence through force of will. It retains this status by certain conjurations, enchantments, and a phylactery. A lich is most often encountered within its hidden chambers, this lair typically being in some wilderness area or vast underground labyrinth, and in any case both solidly constructed of stone and very dark. Through the power which changes this creature from human to lich, the armor class becomes the equivalent of +1 plate armor and + 1 shield (armor class 0). Similarly, hit dice are 8-sided, and the lich can be affected only by magical attack forms or by monsters with magical properties or 6 or more hit dice.
Liches were formerly ultra powerful magic-users or magic-user/clerics of not less than 18th level of magic-use. Their touch is so cold as to cause 1-10 points of damage and paralyze opponents who fail to make their saving throw. The mere sight of a lich will cause any creature below 5th level (or 5 hit dice) to flee in panic from fear. All liches are able to use magic appropriate to the level they had attained prior to becoming non-human.
The following spells or attack forms have no effect on liches: charm, sleep, enfeeblement, polymorph, cold, electricity, insanity or death spells/symbols.
Description: A lich appears very much as does a wight or mummy, being of skeletal form, eyesockets mere black holes with glowing points of light, and garments most often rotting (but most rich).
Quote Originally Posted by Master Rules Boxed Set (1985)
A lich is a powerful undead monster of magical origin. It looks like a skeleton wearing fine garments, and was once an evil and chaotic magic-user or cleric of level 21 or greater (often 27-36). A lich is still able to use spells as it did while alive, so is extremely dangerous.
The very sight of a lich causes fear in all characters below 5th level (no saving throw). Its merest touch causes 1-10 points ofdamage, and can paralyze any creature for 1-100 days (though a saving throw applies, and the paralysis is magically dispellable).
Before any encounter with a lich, the DM should select spells for the creature. This should be done with care, as a lich is extremely intelligent and uses them to its best advantage. Note that morale is given as 10, but a lich flees if in actual danger. A lich is not normally found wandering, but instead remains in or very near a well-defended lair. Outside of its lair, a lich always carries 2-5 powerful magic items to be used in case of trouble. You should choose these, not randomly determine them. Within its lair, a lich has 4-32 additional temporary magic items (or more), plus the amounts of coins, gems, and jewelry given for Treasure Type H (but at 90% chance for each type). The number and severity of traps and other dangers to intruders should be appropriate to protect such a hoard.
Liches are undead, and can be Turned (but not destroyed) by clerics. They are immune to charm, sleep, feeblemind, polymorph, cold, lightning, and death spells, and can only be harmed by magical weapons. They are also immune to the effects of all spells of less than 4th level.
A magic-user lich normally has 1-2 spells on it of permanent nature-most often detect invisible or fly.
A cleric lich normally has 3-12 types of other undead nearby, acting as servants. A full lair of each type (maximum number appearing) is usually present.
Either type of lich can summon other powerful undead for aid. The summons can be made simply by concentrating, and the creature(s) responding arrive 1-100 rounds later, depending on their distance. The summons may be made as often as desired, but any one type of creature will respond only once per day at most. To randomly determine the creatures appearing in answer to the summons, roll 1d20 and refer to the following table. Roll again if a type of creature has already responded that day.
Quote Originally Posted by Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia (1991)
A lich is a powerful undead monster of magical origin. It looks like a skeleton wearing fine garments, and was once an evil and chaotic magic-user or cleric of level 21 or greater (often 27-36). A lich is still able to use spells as it did while alive, so it is extremely dangerous. A lich is not normally found wandering, but instead remains in or very near a well-defended lair. Such a lair might be a dungeon, catacomb, tomb, or necropolis ("city of the dead").
The very sight of a lich causes fear in all characters below 5th level (no saving throw). Its merest touch causes 1d10 points of damage, and can paralyze any creature for 1d100 days (though a saving throw applies, and the paralysis is magically dispellable).
Before any encounter with a lich, the DM should select spells for the creature. This should be done with care, as a lich is extremely intelligent and uses them to its best advantage. Note that the lich's morale is given as 10, but a lich flees if in actual danger.
Liches are undead, and can be turned (but not destroyed) by clerics. They are immune to charm, sleep, feeblemind, polymorph, cold, lightning, and death spells, and can be harmed only by magical weapons. They are also immune to the effects of all spells of less than 4th level.
Outside of its lair, a lich always carries 1d4 +1 powerful magical items to be used in case of trouble. You should choose these, not randomly determine them. Within its lair, a lich has 4d8 additional temporary magical items (or more), plus the amounts of coins, gems, and jewelry given for Treasure Type H in Chapter 16 (but at 90% chance for each type). The number and severity of traps and other dangers to intruders should be appropriate to protect such a hoard.
A magic-user lich normally has ld2 spells on it of permanent nature—most often detect invisible or fly.
A clerical lich normally has 3d4 types of other undead nearby, acting as servants. A full lair of each type (maximum number appearing) is usually present.
Either type of lich can summon other powerful undead for aid. The summons can be made simply by concentrating, and the creature(s) responding arrive 1d100 rounds later, depending on their distance. The summons may be made as often as desired, but any one type of creature will respond only once per day at most. To randomly determine the creatures appearing in answer to the summons, roll 1d20 and refer to the table. Roll again if a type of creature has already responded that day.
Liches are master villains, coordinating armies and spy-networks made up of the undead. Each one has its own goal: One may want to achieve true Immortality, one may serve an evil Immortal of Entropy, one may wish to transform the entire world into a horrid playground for the undead. Each lich in a campaign should have its own name, style, and motivation.
Terrain: Ruins.
Quote Originally Posted by Trading Cards Factory Set (1991)
A lich was originally a wizard or priest of at least 18th level. The creatures are so powerful they continuing to live after death. They are gaunt, skeletal creatures whose black, empty eyesockets contain pinpoints of light that serve the creatures as eyes. A lich can exist for centuries; its will drives it to master new magics. It avoids combat but is powerful in battle.
Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Manual (1993)
The lich is, perhaps, the single most powerful form of undead known to exist. They seek to further their own power at all costs and have little or no interest in the affairs of the living, except where those affairs interfere with their own.
A lich greatly resembles a wight or mummy, being gaunt and skeletal in form. The creature's eye sockets are black and empty save for the fierce pinpoints of light which serve the lich as eyes. The lich can see with normal vision in even the darkest of environments but is unaffected by even the brightest light . An aura of cold and darkness radiates from the lich which makes it an ominous and fearsome sight. They were originally wizards of at least 18th level, Liches are often (75%) garbed in the rich clothes of nobility. If not so attired, the lich will be found in the robes of its former profession. In either case, the clothes will be tattered and rotting with a 25% chance of being magical in some way.
Habitat/Society: Liches are usually solitary creatures. They have cast aside their places as living beings by choice and now want as little to do with the world of men as possible. From time to time, however, a lich's interest in the world at large may be reawakened by some great event of personal importance.
A lich will make its home in some ominous fortified area, often strong keep or vast subterranean crypt.
When a lich does decide to become involved with the world beyond its lair, its keen intelligence makes it a dangerous adversary. In some cases, a lich will depend on its magical powers to accomplish its goals. If this is not sufficient, however, the lich is quite capable, animating a force of undead troops to act on its behalf. If such is the case, the lich's endless patience and cunning more than make up for the inherent disadvantages of the lesser forms of undead which it commands.
Although the lich has no interest in good or evil as we understand it, the creature will do whatever it must to further its own causes. Since it feels that the living an of little importance, the lich is often viewed as evil by those who encounter it. In rare cases, liches of a most unusual nature can be found which are of any alignment. The lich can exist for centuries without change. Its will drives it onward to master new magics and harness mystical powers not available to it in its previous life. So obsessed does the monster become with its quest for power that it often forgets its former existence utterly. Few liches call themselves by their old names when the years have drained the last vestiges of their humanity from them. Instead, they often adopt pseudonyms like "the Black Hand" or "the Forgotten King." Learning the true name of a lich is rumored to confer power over the creature.
Ecology: The lich is not a thing of this world. Although it was once a living creature, it has entered into an unnatural existence. In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftsmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard. Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When next the moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state. A system shock survival throw is required, with failure indicating an error in the creation of the potion which kills the wizard and renders him forever dead.
Quote Originally Posted by 4E
A lich is an undead spellcaster created by means of an ancient ritual. Wizards and other arcane spellcasters who choose this path to immortality escape death by becoming undead, but prolonged existence in this state often drives them mad.
Liches are evil arcane masterminds that pursue the path of undeath to achieve immortality. They are cold, scheming creatures who hunger for ever-greater power, long-forgotten knowledge, and the most terrible of arcane secrets.
Some liches know a ritual that sustains them beyond destruction by tying their essence to a phylactery. When a lich who has performed this ritual is reduced to 0 hit points, its body and possessions crumble into dust, but it is not destroyed. It reappears (along with its possessions) in 1d10 days within 1 square of its phylactery, unless the phylactery is also found and destroyed.
Where?!. Where is the "horrible ritual"? I don't seen it!

Found it. Or one mention of it at any rate. Dragon #272 pg55

"Each method requires the would-be lich to perform acts of horrendous evil in preparing a potion that aids the transformation, culminating in sacrifices that should turn the stomach of any sane character."

[Bphill561]

I did not read the entire thread, but what about making friends with a Time Dragon and going back in time long enough you don't have to worry about the spell plague?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

1st: Ao seems the most likely subject to block other gods' porfolio sense, i mean, its like he wants the realm in constant chaos, while having as many ways to deny that statement as possible

Eh, not really. As presented, much like the Lady of Pain, Ao doesn't really want things at a level mortals understand; the Lady and Ao just have one overriding goal (keep Sigil neutral, keep the gods doing their jobs right) and will do whatever is necessary to attain that. So Ao doesn't "want" the Realms in chaos, but he doesn't "want" them running like a well-oiled machine, either, he just wants the gods to follow the rules and whatever happens to mortals happens.

Of course, the depiction of Ao in the Avatar Trilogy does conflict with that somewhat (as happens whenever you try to include an unknowable cosmic being as a character with a speaking role), and that's assuming he's not lying about his overriding goals, but assuming good faith on the part of the setting authors, the above is actually the case and so he's likely to not intervene to help or impede you as long as you're not trying to muck around with the gods directly.


for the spellcasting, brainwashed apprentices? i mean, you could start a magic school, with the initation a single command of "follow the given instructuions after command word XYZ" then, when you want to cast these spells, call every student, maybe teachers you trust (brainwashed or not) and there is at least a 100 spellcasters of varying levels..... possibly every one of them supported by CL boosters.

Sure, there's a bunch of stuff you can do to make epic magic cheaper, more workable, etc. The point is that epic magic was presented as being anywhere near as cheap, workable, powerful, or solo-able as Netherese 10th+ level spells, when that is manifestly not the case.

I would point out that 3e rules for epic spells are a very close conversion of the 2e rules for "True Dweomers" from the DM's Option: High Level Campaign book, which came out in 1995; Arcane Age: Netheril came out in 1996 (so the authors of the latter were aware of True Dweomers when setting up the Netherese magic system) and deliberately specified that only Netherese magic was barred for being too powerful after the Fall; and Secrets of the Magister says...


It is possible, in the Realms of today, to research True Dweomers and even new 9th-level spells to achieve specific, severely limited ends that resemble parts of what a 10th-level spell could achieve.

...so it is a known, in-setting fact that True Dweomers/epic spellcasting is inferior to 10th-level magic in all ways that matter.

Which isn't to say that epic spellcasting couldn't be helpful in the scenario presented, but "Oh, just whip up an epic spell version of X, problem solved" is definitely a non-starter.


I did not read the entire thread, but what about making friends with a Time Dragon and going back in time long enough you don't have to worry about the spell plague?

That's certainly an option, and there are plenty of other methods of time travel on Toril to try as well. Unfortunately, Mystra keeps an eye on that and regulates it like she does magic, so while that might help you personally it would also get Mystra involved like any of the other "use super-powerful magic to fix it" solutions, which may be undesirable.

[Coidzor]

Sure, there's a bunch of stuff you can do to make epic magic cheaper, more workable, etc. The point is that epic magic was presented as being anywhere near as cheap, workable, powerful, or solo-able as Netherese 10th+ level spells, when that is manifestly not the case.

I would point out that 3e rules for epic spells are a very close conversion of the 2e rules for "True Dweomers" from the DM's Option: High Level Campaign book, which came out in 1995; Arcane Age: Netheril came out in 1996 (so the authors of the latter were aware of True Dweomers when setting up the Netherese magic system) and deliberately specified that only Netherese magic was barred for being too powerful after the Fall; and Secrets of the Magister says...

Oh, that's pretty neat, thank you for that information.


That's certainly an option, and there are plenty of other methods of time travel on Toril to try as well. Unfortunately, Mystra keeps an eye on that and regulates it like she does magic, so while that might help you personally it would also get Mystra involved like any of the other "use super-powerful magic to fix it" solutions, which may be undesirable.

There might also be some... issues with other divine precognition if you had any specific plans for when you went back in time. Maybe?

At any rate, if you, say, want to go back in time so that you can kill Gond and take his portfolio on for yourself, it's best to never actually think of that plan until the Time of Troubles actually begins. Especially since you'll want to acquire power before the Time of Troubles begins rather than trying to power level rapidly during it.


Since it's tied to a bit of what's going on how exactly would an Artificer fair in all this? Is their whole schtick going to be stuck relying on the weave while in the realms?

I believe magic items interact with the weave when they're in Realmspace/on Toril, though they still function normally on the planes and outside of Realmspace.

Magic items were rendered inert or mutated by the Spellplague, and not all of them regained their powers by the time things stabilized or after the Second Sundering.

Since Artificers don't directly cast spells, they probably wouldn't have the whole casting spells makes you go crazy issue that many mages had during the Spellplague, but they also probably wouldn't be able to do much until after things stabilized, either.

[Tallyn]

Stop; in this analogy, the demons are only there because of the emperor in the first place. (After all, the presumed “reality depends on the continued existence of the gods” thing —which is somewhat dubious, since FR gods have died before— and the Wall of the Faithless don’t have to exist, and didn’t use to, but only do because of Ao/the gods.)

Also, to push the analogy, the emperor has the ability to grant magical boons to those who believe and bolster his life force, but has decided to throw his people to the demons instead. He’s such a lousy emperor that as soon as anyone keeps him from even temporarily chumming his subjects as demon chow, people stop worshiping him; arguably if people only “worship” him out of fear of demons, they don’t actually believe in/worship him per se....

Also, reminds me of a couple of book series,
Namely, The Spirit Thief series, in which the analog to the emperor in this example turns out to be omnicidally crazy-evil, or even the Mistborn series, in which the actual emperor is unrepentantly evil in no small part because of the mess he made of the world.

Also? Emperors have died before and there were no demons, except for this one time when only some plot demons got in and did just enough destruction to change editions the empire before everything went back to a normal state of divine extortion.



Except the Emperor poisoned the world, and the poor fools getting turned into demon-chum are the ones with the audacity to find the poisoner unworthy of devotion, since he’s more interested in being Emperor forever than doing his job or even finding a way out of the demon-riddled dystopia he’s brought down on his people and lands.




Being told that you have to worship gods because they possibly screwed up the world and more to the pont you’ll be tortured if you don’t, rather than for any positive symbiotic loop, is a slap in the face.

This sounds dangerously like heresy to me ;)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

There might also be some... issues with other divine precognition if you had any specific plans for when you went back in time. Maybe?

At any rate, if you, say, want to go back in time so that you can kill Gond and take his portfolio on for yourself, it's best to never actually think of that plan until the Time of Troubles actually begins. Especially since you'll want to acquire power before the Time of Troubles begins rather than trying to power level rapidly during it.

Actually, just thinking about the plan should be fine. Portfolio sense isn't a sort of focused omniscience, it works based on "events," like so:


Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

...and the only salient divine abilities that let a god read a mortal's mind are Know Secrets and Possess Mortal, which are comparatively rare outside of gods of knowledge and heads of pantheons.

So as long as you don't act on whatever plans you're thinking about (even little stuff, like writing notes to yourself), you can mentally plot the overthrow of a god all you want, and since noticing that an event occurred isn't the same as directly perceiving the event, if your preparations are sufficiently innocuous they can slip a god's notice. And since Gond in particular is "only" an intermediate deity, his senses only extend into the past, not the future, meaning that he's much easier to act against than e.g. Mystra (though of course that's like saying "It's much easier to defeat a 15th-level wizard than a 20th-level one," in that it's technically true but a low-level commoner has basically the same odds of success in either case).


I believe magic items interact with the weave when they're in Realmspace/on Toril, though they still function normally on the planes and outside of Realmspace.

Yep. The Weave isn't some sort of construct you actively hook into when creating magic items, it's an "abstraction layer" through which all magic automatically acts if you're in Realmspace.

An artificer who ends up in the Realms would use the Weave for all infusions, any items he brings with him would start using the Weave, and all items crafted there would use the Weave as well (unless of course he becomes a Shadow Weave user, but that's a separate issue), and once he leaves Realmspace any items he has would switch back to using the local magical physics whether they were crafted within or outside of Realmspace.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want to use "spells" and "magic" without relying on the Weave, try the different flavors of the Create Device feat, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood. They're nonmagical steampunk versions of magic items. So your Device staff of the magi or scroll of wish completely ignores the Weave if dumped into FR. Any item so made is entirely outside of Mystra's purview unless it affects her or the Weave directly.

[Vizzerdrix]

If you want to use "spells" and "magic" without relying on the Weave, try the different flavors of the Create Device feat, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood. They're nonmagical steampunk versions of magic items. So your Device staff of the magi or scroll of wish completely ignores the Weave if dumped into FR. Any item so made is entirely outside of Mystra's purview unless it affects her or the Weave directly.

I bet Gond would have something to say about those.



Most likely thumbs up. Gond is rather chill.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

There's a Gnome Artificer PrC in Magic that also makes nonmagical clockwork/steampunk versions of magic items (though some of them do incorporate actual magic), and though it appears fairly limited at first, via errata it can explicitly research other device powers than those on its existing list. Since the PrC is limited to gnomes and Lantan humans (i.e. those folks who Gond specifically gifted with knowledge of gunpowder and technology) Gond would definitely give that approach three thumbs up--two of his own, one from a backpack-mounted thumbs-up-generating clockwork arm device.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For anyone who uses Create Device (which you have to choose an [Item Creation] feat to use with), remember that the feats in the Eberron Campaign Setting (Exceptional Artisan, Extraordinary Artisan, and Legendary Artisan) are all [Item Creation] feats, and so any magic item that could be made with them (which is any item at all) can be crafted as a Device using only a single feat.