Two questions on converting a Mystic spell

[jaappleton]

The spell in question is actually from the Mystic, the Wu Jen discipline of Mastery of Light & Darkness. It is as follows (converted to spell slots instead of psi points):

Radiant Beam
3rd Level Spell
Range: 60ft
Casting Time: 1 Action
Evocation
Concentration, up to 1 minute

As an action, you project a beam of light at one creature you can see within 60ft of you. That creature must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 6d6 Radiant damage and is blinded until your concentration ends. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage. A blinded creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns.

You can increase the damage by 1d6 for each spell level you cast the spell above third.

My two questions are as follows:

1. Is this, as a spell, balanced? I think it’s pretty balanced to use. It’s single target Sunbeam at third level, but unlike Sunbeam, it’s not explicitly sunlight and Undead & oozes don’t suffer disadvantage against the save.

2. I was going to allow it for Clerics and Sorcerers. Would that be OK?

[PhoenixPhyre]

6d6 radiant as an action, up to 60d6, plus blinding? At third level? No. Just no.

By comparison, the best 3rd level damage spell does an estimated 16d6 [1] fire (a much weaker damage type) and risks friendly fire. And is well known to be overly strong for the level.

[1] using the DMG guidance of 2 in the area, both failing saves.

[Bundin]

I'm reading 6d6 and only the blinding effect perpetuating, using concentration for that. I'd allow it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm reading 6d6 and only the blinding effect perpetuating, using concentration for that. I'd allow it.

If that's the case (no repeated attacks), it's more in line with expectations.

[jaappleton]

6d6 radiant as an action, up to 60d6, plus blinding? At third level? No. Just no.

By comparison, the best 3rd level damage spell does an estimated 16d6 [1] fire (a much weaker damage type) and risks friendly fire. And is well known to be overly strong for the level.

[1] using the DMG guidance of 2 in the area, both failing saves.

You really shouldn’t be comparing an AoE blast like Fireball to a single target damage spell like this.

Your comp should be closer to something like Vampiric Touch, which deals 3d6 and heals for half the damage taken, though is a range of touch.

Or perhaps Storm Sphere, which is a 4th level spell, but grants a repeatable 4d6 spell attack with Advantage on the roll.

You’re going apples and dinosaurs for this.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You really shouldn’t be comparing an AoE blast like Fireball to a single target damage spell like this.

Your comp should be closer to something like Vampiric Touch, which deals 3d6 and heals for half the damage taken, though is a range of touch.

Or perhaps Storm Sphere, which is a 4th level spell, but grants a repeatable 4d6 spell attack with Advantage on the roll.

You’re going apples and dinosaurs for this.

I was reading it as repeatable, which basically makes it an aoe, just stretched over turns. Single-shot 6d6 is still quite a lot, but it's much more in the realm of reason.

[jaappleton]

I was reading it as repeatable, which basically makes it an aoe, just stretched over turns. Single-shot 6d6 is still quite a lot, but it's much more in the realm of reason.

It is repeatable.

And it not at all ‘basically an AoE’.

Fireball hurts multiple targets at once. Hoards of enemies? One spell damages everything there.

This is single target, doing less damage than Fireball on average, once per turn to a singular target.

It’s take ten turns to do the same damage to ten targets as it would take one casting of Fireball. And you’re not accounting for the fact that now the enemies are all hitting you in the interim, as you go through them all round by round trying to get them individually with Radiant Beam.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It is repeatable.

And it not at all ‘basically an AoE’.

Fireball hurts multiple targets at once. Horse of enemies? One spell damages everything there.

This is single target, doing less damage than Fireball on average, once per turn to a singular target.

It’s take ten turns to do the same damage to ten targets as it would take one casting of Fireball. And you’re not accounting for the fact that now the enemies are all hitting you in the interim, as you go through them all round by round trying to get them individually with Radiant Beam.

But being able to hit the same target multiple times makes it way better. As a note, the expected damage total for a 3rd level, single-target spell is 5d10 (save for half, average 27.5). This does 21 per shot, of a great damage type, plus blinding (a very strong debuff). It would be a no-brainer pickup for any one (clerics especially) who want to do some blasting. It's way better than blight (4th level, does 8d8 [36] necrotic on a CON save, which are the highest saves in the game, no rider). There aren't any good single-target 3rd level blasting spells. This one is on par with fireball (slightly less damage but way better damage type + strong rider), which is notoriously overtuned.

Drop it to 4d6 + blinding or drop the blinding and keep the damage high IMO.

[Zuras]

It is repeatable.

And it not at all ‘basically an AoE’.

Fireball hurts multiple targets at once. Hordes of enemies? One spell damages everything there.

This is single target, doing less damage than Fireball on average, once per turn to a singular target.

It’s take ten turns to do the same damage to ten targets as it would take one casting of Fireball. And you’re not accounting for the fact that now the enemies are all hitting you in the interim, as you go through them all round by round trying to get them individually with Radiant Beam.

6d6 repeatable single target damage with a blinding effect is well beyond anything a 3rd level spell can provide. Blindness/Deafness at 3rd level only affects 2 creatures. This spell gives you the ability to blind someone every turn for a minute. Call Lightning has trouble hitting more than one target in most circumstances, and it only does 3d10 damage. Honestly, 3d8 radiant plus the blind effect would make it better than Vampiric Touch and on-par with Call Lightning, especially given the superior damage type.

Blight, at 4th level, does 8d8 single target Necrotic damage once. 6d6 repeatable for a minute with a strong debuff is well off the curve.

[Protolisk]

The original Radiant Beam doesn't look like it does continuous damage anyway. It first is a single action, and the enemy takes a single tick of damage (the 6d6) and is blinded until concentration ends. To me, it's only the blind that allows for further saves. No where does it say you can keep making actions for shooting the beam a second time.

To me, it looks more like Mind Spike than it does Sunbeam. Sunbeam specifies that you can make another line. Wu Jen Radiant Beam makes no such mention. Yes, it's concentration, but it makes no mention of you actually being able to inflict more saves for damage explicitly.

Not to mention Blindness/Deafness itself is a level 2 spell, and only blinds (or deafens). Adding on 6d6 alone is enough for a level 3 slot. Adding on up to 60d6 seems too out there for the difference between a 2nd level and 3rd level spell.

[Bundin]

It's another issue due to lack of punctuation. I really wish someone would invent Conjure Punctuation at WotC.

Another example: how many hitpoints does the UA Artificer Battle Smith's pet have? "equal to five times your level in this class + your Intelligence modifier + the Iron Defender’s Constitution modifier". It's been explained as "equal to 'five times your level in this class' + 'your Intelligence modifier' + 'the Iron Defender’s Constitution modifier'", not "five times those three added up". Same applies here:

"On a failed save, the target takes '6d6 Radiant damage' and 'is blinded until your concentration ends'. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage. A blinded creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns."

As explained by others, any other interpretation would be way too much for a mere lvl3 spell, especially considering the power of the Blinded condition.

[PhoenixPhyre]

As another point of comparison, let's take guiding bolt, that famously-strong (for a 1st level spell) Cleric spell.

Upcast to 3rd level, we have the following:
Guiding Bolt
* 6d6 radiant damage, once
* next attack against the target has advantage.
* Attack roll, does nothing on a miss (worth 25% extra damage by DMG standards).

Proposed Spell
* 6d6 radiant damage, repeatable up to 10 times on any combination of targets
* blinds targets who fail their save for 1 minute (save ends). Can repeat the hit to blind them again if they save early. This imposes disadvantage on all their attacks, makes most spells and other nasty abilities impossible, and gives everyone else advantage on attacks against them.
* DEX save (the overall-weakest save), does half damage on a success.

The proposed one is orders of magnitude better. Up to 10x damage, save for half (rather than miss for none), rider that does everything guiding bolt does...and several times more. All for the low, low price of concentration. And of course there's no "this effect ends if you don't use your action for it" clause like witch bolt, so you can choose each turn to blast someone or do something else with your action as long as it doesn't take concentration.

This is so much a no-brainer that it's way out of line.

[jaappleton]

Ok, ok.

Fair.

Let’s try this:

4d6 Repeatable
Can blind only on the initial, first beam conjured

How about that?

Comparing that to Spirit Guardians, I’d argue that’s pretty damn fair. Heck, perhaps even slightly underpowered.

If you want to say ‘Blinded is too strong’, OK, let’s crowdsource an effect that’d be more appropriate for the power level.

[NNescio]

It's another issue due to lack of punctuation. I really wish someone would invent Conjure Punctuation at WotC.

Another example: how many hitpoints does the UA Artificer Battle Smith's pet have? "equal to five times your level in this class + your Intelligence modifier + the Iron Defender’s Constitution modifier". It's been explained as "equal to 'five times your level in this class' + 'your Intelligence modifier' + 'the Iron Defender’s Constitution modifier'", not "five times those three added up". (...)

Apply PEMDAS when in doubt. (Oddly my table didn't even see the potential issue when we read the line for the first time. Must be order of operations being heavily ingrained in our minds. I would need it to be written as "five times the sum..." to read it the other way.)

Digression aside...



Same applies here:

"On a failed save, the target takes '6d6 Radiant damage' and 'is blinded until your concentration ends'. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage. A blinded creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns."

As explained by others, any other interpretation would be way too much for a mere lvl3 spell, especially considering the power of the Blinded condition.

I fully agree with you. The first saving throw is different from the subsequent ones.

Though by strict RAW, the repeated saving throw does nothing . Other effects will [i]explicitly state the consequences of a successful [repeated] saving throw, e.g. "repeat the saving throw [every some aribtrary time interval], ending [the effect] on itself on a success" or "On a success, the spell ends". The spell is just poorly written.

So yeah, it's super Blindness [also OP].

Edit: So I found the text for the original ability:


Radiant Beam (5 psi; conc., 1 min.). As an action, you project a beam of light at one creature you can see within 60 feet of you. The target must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 6d6 radiant damage and is blinded until your concentration ends. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage. A blinded target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. You can increase this effect’s damage by 1d6 per each additional psi point spent on it.

(Bolded mine.)

This makes it much clearer that it only deals initial damage. The most intuitive way of reading "ending the effect" is that it refers to being "blinded". ("A blinded target", within the same sentence.) Also, the only ongoing effect the spell has (on a failed save) is to make the target "is blinded until your concentration ends."

There is no repeating ray. The caster (or manifester) "projects a beam of light". There is no "you can create a new line of radiance project a new beam of light as your action on any turn until the spell ends," unlike Sunbeam (which explicitly says it does).

The spell (or psychic talent) only does what it says in its description. One target, one beam, one initial instance of damage, and the only ongoing condition is blindness (on failed save), which ends if the target successfully saves against the spell (psi-talent) DC.

[Protolisk]

Oh, I have a good one.

"An action, target a creature to make a Dex save. On a failed save, it takes 6d6 radiant damage, and also is blinded as long as you hold concentration. On a successful save, the target takes half damage, and is not blinded. A blinded target can repeat the saving throw at the end of their turns to end the blindness. At higher levels, the damage is increased by 1d6 per spell level above level 3."

The spell as written is perfectly fine. It's the misrepresntation of thinking it was a multi attack that could inflict 6d6 and blindness on up to 10 targets, once per round, that made it grossly unfair. As is, it's a fine effect, like Bundin said originally.

[NNescio]

Oh, I have a good one.

"An action, target a creature to make a Dex save. On a failed save, it takes 6d6 radiant damage, and also is blinded as long as you hold concentration. On a successful save, the target takes half damage, and is not blinded. A blinded target can repeat the saving throw at the end of their turns to end the blindness. At higher levels, the damage is increased by 1d6 per spell level above level 3."

The spell as written is perfectly fine. It's the misrepresntation of thinking it was a multi attack that could inflict 6d6 and blindness on up to 10 targets, once per round, that made it grossly unfair. As is, it's a fine effect, like Bundin said originally.

The original wording for the Wu Jen ability was perfectly fine. Unfortunately it was mangled when it was adapted into a spell.

In any case, I'd say... maybe remove the concentration requirement (Blindness/Deafness doesn't require conc.), and possibly bump its damage up a bit to at least 8d6.

[jaappleton]

How can we make it a repeatable damage single target spell?

[Bundin]

Apply PEMDAS when in doubt. (Oddly my table didn't even see the potential issue when we read the line for the first time. Must be order of operations being heavily ingrained in our minds. I would need it to be written as "five times the sum..." to read it the other way.)

Digression aside...



I fully agree with you. The first saving throw is different from the subsequent ones.

Though by strict RAW, the repeated saving throw does nothing . Other effects will [i]explicitly state the consequences of a successful [repeated] saving throw, e.g. "repeat the saving throw [every some aribtrary time interval], ending [the effect] on itself on a success" or "On a success, the spell ends". The spell is just poorly written.

So yeah, it's super Blindness [also OP].

Edit: So I found the text for the original ability:



(Bolded mine.)

This makes it much clearer that it only deals initial damage. The most intuitive way of reading "ending the effect" is that it refers to being "blinded". ("A blinded target", within the same sentence.) Also, the only ongoing effect the spell has (on a failed save) is to make the target "is blinded until your concentration ends."

There is no repeating ray. The caster "projects a beam of light". There is no "you can create a new line of radiance project a new beam of light as your action on any turn until the spell ends."

The spell only does what it says in its description. One target, one beam, one initial instance of damage, and the only ongoing condition is blindness (on failed save), which ends if the target successfully saves against the spell DC.
PEMDAS doesn't really work with text for me, that's why they need better punctuation.

As for the quote, I considered posting exactly this. Then the latent rules lawyer in my mind started cheering because of the RAW loophole that pretty much guarantees 60d6 potential:

Radiant Beam (5 psi; conc., 1 min.). As an action, you project a beam of light at one creature you can see within 60 feet of you. The target must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 6d6 radiant damage and is blinded until your concentration ends. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage. A blinded target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. You can increase this effect’s damage by 1d6 per each additional psi point spent on it.

The damage is part of the effect, as made abundantly clear in the final sentence, so it must be saved for and thus it repeats! OP spell is mine! RAW rules!
And then we're back to square one, trying to get the point across that the effect is "damage once, Blindness until saved"... Poorly written indeed.

[Protolisk]

If it must be a repeatable damage spell, I'd say model it after Heat Metal. Requiring metal was it's "save". You have metal, you fail. You don't have metal, you pass.

So at third level, maybe a Dex save that on a fail does 3d8 and is blinded until your next turn, no damage and is not blinded on success, but it takes concentration and on further turns still needs your bonus action to flare up.

Since blinded causes disadvantage on attack and advatage to attack it, it's still a little stronger than flatly just Heat Metal at third level which makes it that the target is disadvantaged on attacks and checks. It also can be used on enemies that aren't wearing or wielding metal, so its just a bit stronger.

Changes could be that you can cast it on multiple targets and just not use the bonus action and instead an action. Either way, even Sunbeam only blinds until your next turn, so I'd suggest to keep it that way too.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How can we make it a repeatable damage single target spell?
The closest analog I can think of is Witch Bolt. Comparing that to first level single damage spells like Guiding Bolt and Chromatic Orb would suggest that a damage-over-time that uses your action to continue should be about half the damage of a single target spell of that level. So, say, 3d6 or 4d6. Cut that down by half for adding the debuff and removing the action cost, and I'd say something like 2d6/turn seems fair.

Alternately, 6d6 on hit and blinded for as long as you concentrate, seems perfectly fair as a 3rd.

[Bjarkmundur]

I'm pretty sure OP has been updated several times, 'cause trying to catch up on this thread is reeaalllly confusing.

[NNescio]

PEMDAS doesn't really work with text for me, that's why they need better punctuation.

Well, for me, if somebody says "five times this plus that plus that other thing...", PEMDAS just seems more intuitive instead of 'hanging' the "five times" and waiting for the rest of the sentence to complete. Inserting pauses to clarify things just seems unnecessarily verbose and interrupts with parsing the spoken "formula".

Now if the speaker says "five times the sum of...", then I'll hang the "five times.." in the air until I hear a pause.

Then again maybe it's because I hear verbally-spoken 'equations' (technically a string of numbers and operators, doesn't necessarily mean it has an equals sign) a lot in my line of work. We don't usually pause unless there are brackets or something.



As for the quote, I considered posting exactly this. Then the latent rules lawyer in my mind started cheering because of the RAW loophole that pretty much guarantees 60d6 potential:

Radiant Beam (5 psi; conc., 1 min.). As an action, you project a beam of light at one creature you can see within 60 feet of you. The target must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 6d6 radiant damage and is blinded until your concentration ends. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage. A blinded target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. You can increase this effect’s damage by 1d6 per each additional psi point spent on it.

The damage is part of the effect, as made abundantly clear in the final sentence, so it must be saved for and thus it repeats! OP spell is mine! RAW rules!
And then we're back to square one, trying to get the point across that the effect is "damage once, Blindness until saved"... Poorly written indeed.

"Effect" refers to the psionic talent (like saying "spell"). The original text makes it clearer since it is presented on a new paragraph (haha, I'm a hypocrite and mangled the 'effect' text too when copying, oops). This becomes less ambiguous when compared with the other psionic talents presented in the same UA article, which also use identical language. (Otherwise, what, does Frozen Rain deal repeating 1d6 damage too?)

This interpretion is also supported by the wording used in the description of Psionic Talents (analogue of Spellcasting) class feature:



Psionic Talents
A psionic talent is a minor psionic effect you have mastered. At 1st level, you know one psionic talent of your choice. You learn additional talents of your choice at higher levels. The Talents Known column of the Mystic tableshows the total number of talents you know at each level; when that number goes up for you, choose a new talent.

(Underlined mine.)

Though yeah it could be written better by calling it a "power" instead of reusing the word "effect" (leading to potential confusing equivocation).


How can we make it a repeatable damage single target spell?

Either copy from Sunbeam (if you want a repeatable beam) or Heat Metal (if you want a lingering 'burn' effect), throw in Blinded if necessary and then adjust the damage values to fit the spell slot. Also, if copying from Sunbeam, make it target one creature at a time instead of a line (note also that the Blinded effect for Sunbeam only lasts until the end of the caster's next turn, instead of the full spell duration).

[jaappleton]

Soooo

Radiant Beam
Concentration, 1 Minute
Casting time: Action
Evocation
You shoot a beam of radiant energy at one target, must make a Dex save. On a failed save, the next attack against the target has Advantage, and takes 4d8 Radiant damage. On a successful save, the target takes half damage and suffers no additional effects. As long as you maintain concentration, you may use your action on subsequent turns to shoot another beam.
You can increase the damage of this spell by 1d8 for every spell level above third.

How’s that?

EDIT: Edited for clarification

[Protolisk]

Soooo

Radiant Beam
Concentration, 1 Minute
Evocation
Action to shoot a beam at one target, must make a Dex save. On a failed save, the next attack against the target has Advantage, and takes 4d8 Radiant damage. On a successful save, the target takes half damage and suffers no additional effects.
You can increase the damage of this spell by 1d8 for every spell level above third.

How’s that?

You need to specify that you can make a new beam as an action on subsequent turns while you maintain concentration. Or, if it is a lingering burn, that the target needs to make the save again on subsequent turns to take damage/have advantage against them. It needs a written way to repeat if you want it to be repeatable.

I'd also either reduce the damage to just 4d6 or remove the half damage and make it no damage on a success, but you seem adamant about it. You did get rid of the explicit blinded condition, which just made it to Guiding Bolt what Dragon's Breath is to Burning Hands, so maybe the damage is fair as Guiding Bolt is level 1 for 4d6.

[jaappleton]

You need to specify that you can make a new beam as an action on subsequent turns while you maintain concentration. Or, if it is a lingering burn, that the target needs to make the save again on subsequent turns to take damage/have advantage against them. It needs a written way to repeat if you want it to be repeatable.

I'd also either reduce the damage to just 4d6 or remove the half damage and make it no damage on a success, but you seem adamant about it. You did get rid of the explicit blinded condition, which just made it to Guiding Bolt what Dragon's Breath is to Burning Hands, so maybe the damage is fair as Guiding Bolt is level 1 for 4d6.

You’re right, I’ll edit it momentarily that it clearly needs to be repeatable.

There is something I want to say: I think there is no exact mathematical formula for spell strength calculation. There’s guidelines in the DMG for a damage formula, absolutely. But there’s nothing relating to the strength of various conditions (Dazed, Stunned, Blinded) or beneficial effects (Next attack has Advantage).

Additionally, even the already published spells don’t scale in that science. Guiding Bolt as a first level spell is fine. But despite being able to be scaled to a 9th level spell, nobody casts it as one because it’s a waste of a 9th level slot. It’s a waste of a 4th level slot, too. Burning Hands is a good first level AoE, but if anyone using it with a 5th level slot?

My point is that third level spells are strictly better than upscaled first level ones. And 6th levels are better than 5th, etc. There’s the occasional outlier (Fireball, Lightning Bolt), but what I’m saying is fairly true.

So while we need to use existing spells as a baseline, because it’s all we have to work with, I do think some are adhering to them just a bit too.... Blindly, pardon the pun.

[Protolisk]

So while we need to use existing spells as a baseline, because it’s all we have to work with, I do think some are adhering to them just a bit too.... Blindly, pardon the pun.

Yeah I might be, I won't lie. Which is why I said it'd be a fine spell even if it DID have blind, just not a single level 3 spell causing blindness on up to ten targets AND 6d6 damage, while Blindness as a level 3 spell only gets... 2 blinded targets. Was just too off.

I do feel a completely balanced spell would be Heat Eyes, er, Sun 2 by 4, er...

Radiant Beam
3rd level evocation
1 minute Conc, 1 action cast time, 60 foot range

Shoot a ray of light at a target in range. The target must make a Constitution save. On a failed save, the target takes 3d8 radiant damage and is blinded until your next turn. On a successful save, the target takes half damage and is not blinded.

You can shoot an additional ray as an action on later turns as long as you hold concentration.

Casting this spell at a higher level: Each ray deals an additional 1d8 radiant damage for each spell level higher than 3.

I say Con save because Sunbeam, Blindness, they all use Con save because it's the eyes dealing with the light from the blindness, you can't "dodge" light. I actually find it weird that the original beam even uses Dex in that case. Additionally, Sunbeam at level 6 will still be stronger because only then is it AoE, which befits a "natural" level 6 spell instead of a up-casted level 3 spell.

[Zuras]

4d8 damage/turn is still above the curve damage.

Consider that Vampiric Touch does 3d6 and has a range of Touch, with a weaker rider (5 points of healing isn’t that impressive compared to Blindness). With a range of 60, maintaining concentration is much less an issue than either Vampiric Touch or Spirit Guardians.

[jaappleton]

4d8 damage/turn is still above the curve damage.

Consider that Vampiric Touch does 3d6 and has a range of Touch, with a weaker rider (5 points of healing isn’t that impressive compared to Blindness). With a range of 60, maintaining concentration is much less an issue than either Vampiric Touch or Spirit Guardians.

Am I right in that Vampiric Touch is the ONLY third level concentration repeatable damage spell?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Am I right in that Vampiric Touch is the ONLY third level concentration repeatable damage spell?

There are very few single-target, non-cantrip damage spells period. And there aren't that many repeatable damage spells either.

:
1st level
Catapult
Chaos bolt
Chromatic orb
Guiding bolt
Ray of Sickness
Witch Bolt

2nd level
Aganazzar's scorcher
Heat Metal (repeatable)
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mind Spike
Ray of Enfeeblement
Spiritual Weapon (repeatable)
Phantasmal Force

3rd level
Vampiric Touch (repeatable)

4th level
Blight
Phantasmal Killer

5th level
Bigby's Hand...sort of
Immolation
Negative Energy Flood

6th level
Disintegrate
Harm

7th level
Finger of Death

8th level
<None>

9th level
PW: Kill
Weird (?)


I'd say this is on purpose. Casters by design are supposed to be weaker at single-target damage dealing, in exchange for being much better at dealing with hordes and imposing conditions. Heck, most of those spells I listed are...sub-optimal. Badly so, in fact. And most classes only have access to a few of them.

[jaappleton]

There are very few single-target, non-cantrip damage spells period. And there aren't that many repeatable damage spells either.

:
1st level
Catapult
Chaos bolt
Chromatic orb
Guiding bolt
Ray of Sickness
Witch Bolt

2nd level
Aganazzar's scorcher
Heat Metal (repeatable)
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mind Spike
Ray of Enfeeblement
Spiritual Weapon (repeatable)
Phantasmal Force

3rd level
Vampiric Touch (repeatable)

4th level
Blight
Phantasmal Killer

5th level
Bigby's Hand...sort of
Immolation
Negative Energy Flood

6th level
Disintegrate
Harm

7th level
Finger of Death

8th level
<None>

9th level
PW: Kill
Weird (?)


I'd say this is on purpose. Casters by design are supposed to be weaker at single-target damage dealing, in exchange for being much better at dealing with hordes and imposing conditions. Heck, most of those spells I listed are...sub-optimal. Badly so, in fact. And most classes only have access to a few of them.

Alrighty..... Let’s try this.

Let’s take Spirit Guardians. Third level spell. Which is ally friendly, 3d8, 15ft radius and doesn’t require any sort of action at all to keep it going (just maintain concentration)...

And make it truly ranged. A wave emanating from the caster, or a.... something.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Alrighty..... Let’s try this.

Let’s take Spirit Guardians. Third level spell. Which is ally friendly, 3d8, 15ft radius and doesn’t require any sort of action at all to keep it going (just maintain concentration)...

And make it truly ranged. A wave emanating from the caster, or a.... something.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

If you mean expanding the radius, that gets OP very fast.
If you mean changing it into a caster-centric directional spell (cone/square/line), you run into oddness with the difficult terrain portion if it becomes repeatable. Otherwise, not a big change.
Other than that...clarification needed.

[Zuras]

Alrighty..... Let’s try this.

Let’s take Spirit Guardians. Third level spell. Which is ally friendly, 3d8, 15ft radius and doesn’t require any sort of action at all to keep it going (just maintain concentration)...

And make it truly ranged. A wave emanating from the caster, or a.... something.

That’s Destructive Wave. 10d6 damage (half thunder, half radiant/necrotic). 30’ Sphere centered on you. It’s 5th level but allows no upcasting, and is only available to 17th level Paladins and 9th level Tempest Clerics.

I agree that Vampiric Touch and Blight are a bit on the weak side, so using them as comparison points may be underselling what a “good” single target damage spell should be, but those are the available comparison points.

[Jerrykhor]

I think its fine. There is a big jump in quality of spells from 2nd to 3rd level, so you can't compare level 3 spells to level 2 spells upcasted to 3rd level.

[Zalabim]

The problem with comparing to vampiric touch is really that VT heals the caster, and healing is costed at least as high as dealing damage and is also not part of the wizard's normal wheelhouse. So 10 damage and heal for 5 is probably equivalent to dealing 15 damage, or more (not necessarily more damage but more good parts of the spell compared to VT.)