Durkon*'s mistake

[Gluteus_Maximus]

He learned accelerate vampirism instead of protection from daylight.

Why is this a mistake, you may ask? Well, the thralls he made never did more than mildly inconvenience the party. The vampires he had would have been more than enough without the thralls.

If he researched the protection from daylight spell and didn't think about crushing Roy, Durkon*, Gontor* and others would have a much better position than they did in this situation. Plus, Gontor* would have been able to mist out the hole in the roof or just hang out in the room, or even go fetch such an oak table himself.

In the end Ponchula and Durkon* did nothing to the party other than have Durkon lose a level. Durkon*'s spells would be much better used casting through the barrier, and probably could have prevented Belkar's scroll killing. They wouldn't have a cleric high enough level to cast wall of stone to get past the giant worm, and the party would go down pretty dang quickly against three primary casters 9th 13th and 15th level each as well as the domination storm they used on the low will party members. Ponchula could lurk in the darkness, appear to dominate, and then mist again. They really blew it on using that then when they could have used it at a point where there isn't easy access for Belkar to stake Durkon*.

[Schroeswald]

What would you rather have? Hundreds of minions that might kill your enemies (and without them his plans would definitely be different), or protection from daylight which stops one method of killing you if your planned protections are gone. I know what I'd pick.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

What would you rather have? Hundreds of minions that might kill your enemies (and without them his plans would definitely be different), or protection from daylight which stops one method of killing you if your planned protections are gone. I know what I'd pick.

The minions made him think he had a chance at beating Roy without clerics in the dining hall, and what's this? He has two, and one being very high level. Without the minions, Durkon's family wouldn't be enough against Durkon*'s casting, not to mention with the same number of vampires against them but behind a permanent barrier (that, I might add, Durkon can't drop to get staked) would make domination be much more effective in an even more pivotal battle.

[Quebbster]

There were at least five casters in the dining hall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html), as well as plenty of spawn. Plus, Hilgya joining the Order was a surprise, as far as he knew they had no divine magic.

[Jasdoif]

The minions made him think he had a chance at beating Roy without clerics in the dining hallIt's not their fault HPoH ignored the warning once he heard what he wanted to hear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html).

That's HPoH's mistake: Arrogantly assuming victory was assured, and thus focusing his personal attention on killing Roy instead of on the council. If he hadn't split his efforts, he could've capitalized on the edges his minions could gave him.

[BaronOfHell]

The way I understood events that transpired, without the accelerated spawn magic, the vampire version of Durkon would not have had any minions at all. Gontor (not sure about spelling), Ponchula and the final one only came to existence at the Godsmoot because of this particular spell, I believe.

Edit: Nevermind, I just realized that he probably was able to cast both spells from his staff, and what spell he learned was first truly revealed after he left the Godsmoot without the staff. I'll let this post stay here in case other shared my confusion.

[Schroeswald]

The minions made him think he had a chance at beating Roy without clerics in the dining hall, and what's this? He has two, and one being very high level. Without the minions, Durkon's family wouldn't be enough against Durkon*'s casting, not to mention with the same number of vampires against them but behind a permanent barrier (that, I might add, Durkon can't drop to get staked) would make domination be much more effective in an even more pivotal battle.
Counterpoint, Sandy just replaces Curly (and you know what, lets say she replaces the other two casters), and the Exarch does as much damage (maybe even a bit more) as every other vampire they lost in this battle. What it doesn't do is stop Durkon and Belkar from doing what they do, so we're in the exact same situation but maybe Sandy or the Exarch don't run away and instead Belkar or Hilgya manage to kill them. And then, well the Exarch still loses, Durkon's family contains two bards over twelfth level, with Squeaky probably at level with Elan, Sigdi is at least sixth level, probably higher, Minrah will be there in a few minutes and she has a guard class level and is at least a 5th level cleric (with Tinna there even later and she's probably about the same level), Hoskin, Shirra, and Logann's mom are probably level with Sigdi, we have a second level caster, and then 15 more fighters (and by fighter I mean people who don't cast spells, I presume some of them are rogues and rangers) of indeterminate level. This kills the Exarch, but maybe a few good guys go down with him.
EDIT:

The way I understood events that transpired, without the accelerated spawn magic, the vampire version of Durkon would not have had any minions at all. Gontor (not sure about spelling), Ponchula and the final one only came to existence at the Godsmoot because of this particular spell, I believe.
That stuff was there due to the staff (or, it could be, maybe he used his own spell but it doesn't really matter which), not studying the spell doesn't change this.
EDIT AGAIN:Ninja'd by BaronOfHell himself, good job.

[Fyraltari]

Nope, that was tactically sound, only two vampires died of sunburn.

think about crushing Roy
That's the the mistake, if he had had his whole gang in the Council Chamber from the get-go he would have won easily, Roy wouldn't even have known what to do to stop him besides charge and get killed.

It's not their fault HPoH ignored the warning once he heard what he wanted to hear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html).
That too ; also a mistake.

[Peelee]

Hindsight is 20/20. You could say all sorts of things; his mistake was letting Roy get ahold of the staff, his mistake was following Hel, but at the end of the day he'd had a good plan; even if it somehow failed and he lived, he could raise a vampire army (he was already well on his way to that already). He could have had plenty of time to research Protection from Daylight later, if he so wished.

[Fyraltari]

Hindsight is 20/20. You could say all sorts of things; his mistake was letting Roy get ahold of the staff, his mistake was following Hel, but at the end of the day he'd had a good plan; even if it somehow failed and he lived, he could raise a vampire army (he was already well on his way to that already). He could have had plenty of time to research Protection from Daylight later, if he so wished.

Hindsight or no, "I'm going to divide my forces and draw the guy who's coming to try to stop me to me because I want the pleasure of killing him personally rather than have him die as a natural result of me achieving my primary goal" was always clear flaw in his plan. It didn't look as bad when we didn't know how he planned on rigging the council's vote and therefore did not know if and how much Roy could interfere but knowledge of the Orange Barrier makes it clear that Durkon* took an unnecessary risk and paid for it.

[Schroeswald]

Hindsight or no, "I'm going to divide my forces and draw the guy who's coming to try to stop me to me because I want the pleasure of killing him personally rather than have him die as a natural result of me achieving my primary goal" was always clear flaw in his plan. It didn't look as bad when we didn't know how he planned on rigging the council's vote and therefore did not know if and how much Roy could interfere but knowledge of the Orange Barrier makes it clear that Durkon* took an unnecessary risk and paid for it.

So, in summary, Greg didn't learn "Don't Split the Party"?

[Fyraltari]

So, in summary, Greg didn't learn "Don't Split the Party"?

No actually, not committing his entire force to fighting Roy and keeping a reserve focused on the target was the clever part. It's attacking Roy at all that was dumb.

[brian 333]

Durkula's plan worked.

He made no mistakes. He beat Roy and company and had a clear path to the Council Hall.

If he had not diverted Roy he may not have been able to dominate the elders because Roy would have been there warning them away.

It was a good plan.

Durkon's plan worked better. Twice.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, Durkon* won before the author made him lose. ;)

[Fyraltari]

If he had not diverted Roy he may not have been able to dominate the elders because Roy would have been there warning them away.

What stopped Roy from warning them that wouldn't if they had not fought? He had several hours to do so.

The Order could not have passed the Orange Barrier, meaning that there would have been no reason for Durkon* to make a deal with Durkon and so no opening for Durkon to trick him.

[Schroeswald]

What stopped Roy from warning them that wouldn't if they had not fought? He had several hours to do so.

The Order could not have passed the Orange Barrier, meaning that there would have been no reason for Durkon* to make a deal with Durkon and so no opening for Durkon to trick him.

Or, Durkon just found a way to show it him in the intervening time, because why not?

[Particle_Man]

Failing to name his followers was a mistake. Elan proved that in this world if you don’t have a name you reduce your chance of survival in combat, and Durkon (and so presumably Durkon*) knew this.

[HorizonWalker]

Durkula's plan worked.

He made no mistakes. He beat Roy and company and had a clear path to the Council Hall.

If he had not diverted Roy he may not have been able to dominate the elders because Roy would have been there warning them away.

It was a good plan.

Durkon's plan worked better. Twice.

No, Roy wouldn't be there, because Roy isn't a Dwarf and cannot get inside the council chamber.

[Schroeswald]

Failing to name his followers was a mistake. Elan proved that in this world if you don’t have a name you reduce your chance of survival in combat, and Durkon (and so presumably Durkon*) knew this.

I don’t know, I’d say the most named people died first, Durkon* had Greg, Ponchula had a popular forum name, the Exarch (though he was probably more named than her) had a full and used title, Sandy had a forum nickname for awhile and Curly is still alive despite us just starting to give her one.

[Peelee]

No, Roy wouldn't be there, because Roy isn't a Dwarf and cannot get inside the council chamber.

The elders had to enter the chamber from somewhere, like the bridge, and Roy could get there.

[Squire Doodad]

I don’t know, I’d say the most named people died first, Durkon* had Greg, Ponchula had a popular forum name, the Exarch (though he was probably more named than her) had a full and used title, Sandy had a forum nickname for awhile and Curly is still alive despite us just starting to give her one.

The Exarch lasted longer than Ponchula because his name was the name of his entity instead of a misbegotten forum name. Within a small margin of error to allow for epic defeat, that puts him next to last just in front of Curly who has no name at all until the last like 5 strips.

[The Pilgrim]

The elders had to enter the chamber from somewhere, like the bridge, and Roy could get there.

Which raises the question of why didn't Roy get there right away, either instead of confronting Greg at the Dinner Hall or after defeating him and resurrecting Durkon. But that would be a question for another thread. The thing is, people do not always make the best choices, but a good leader has always to plan assuming the enemy will make the best choices (and avoid interrupting him when he doesn't). Greg planning on Roy following his best choices can't be blamed on him as a mistake.

Greg undestood that the Order had a very easy way to foil Hel's scheme by just walking to the entrance of the Great Cave with the Bridge and exposing the vampires to the incoming Elders before they came into the Orange Chamber. So, Greg took measures to prevent that from happening, by luring The Order to combat him far from the Council meeting room. Even though he failed, the Order still chose to rest until after dawn to recover from the combat, instead of rushing right away to the meeting, thus allowing the Exarch to pull the plan of dominating the Elders as they arrived.

[mjasghar]

When your mission -which will likely cause the world to end- is going to take place underground I think protection from sunlight is less a priority than accelerating vampirism which would otherwise take days to create thralls
That’s one of the issues raised tangentially in this book - that if the underground world is full of sentient beings it should be either overrun with vampires or have heavy defences against them. That and the broken infinite use of domination combined with vampires having class levels

[Peelee]

That’s one of the issues raised tangentially in this book - that if the underground world is full of sentient beings it should be either overrun with vampires or have heavy defences against them.

Vampires are very rare, though, so I don't think either one is necessarily true.

[Rrmcklin]

Hindsight is 20/20. You could say all sorts of things; his mistake was letting Roy get ahold of the staff, his mistake was following Hel, but at the end of the day he'd had a good plan; even if it somehow failed and he lived, he could raise a vampire army (he was already well on his way to that already). He could have had plenty of time to research Protection from Daylight later, if he so wished.

Seconding this. Even though Durkon* did make some suboptimal decisions, that's not ultimately what lead to his down fall. I keep failing to see the point in "this is what the villains did wrong" threads that keep popping up for some reason.

[Squire Doodad]

Seconding this. Even though Durkon* did make some suboptimal decisions, that's not ultimately what lead to his down fall. I keep failing to see the point in "this is what the villains did wrong" threads that keep popping up for some reason.

Maybe they are just fun to talk about? I dunno XD

Dissecting the reasons why they messed up is easily derailed though.

[Xyril]

The minions made him think he had a chance at beating Roy without clerics in the dining hall, and what's this? He has two, and one being very high level.


That's like saying that without the giant, the Philistines wouldn't have been overconfident enough to lose to a boy with a sling, so they really should have just brought an extra boy instead.

Many factors had to come together for Durkon* to lose, none of which were really within Durkon or Durkon*'s ability to predict from prior knowledge. Roy should have died at the Godsmoot, if not for coming to terms with Durkon being gone at a dramatically perfect moment and activating his weapon of legacy. The Order would have lost to Durkon*'s ambush if not for Hilgya's timely arrival and Belkar's rage being triggered by his "broken" magical item and Durkon initiating his ultimate gambit at the perfect moment. Heck, that first ambush by the spawn only would have severely depleted the Order's supply of spells and healing (at a minimum) as they were forced to fight at a tactical disadvantage once V dismissed the force cage--it was only Hilgya's surprise arrival that prevented any sort of real fight.

Without his spawn, Durkon* would have been forced to enact a more cautious plan, but he still would have been unprepared for all of these unexpected bullets. The best argument in favor of your position is that he would have been forced to use stealth and cunning instead of a direct confrontation, thus avoiding a chance for all of those factors to come together, resulting in his death. However, there weren't really many ways to do this--and the plausible plans that existed would all have worked better with a lot of cannon fodder. Remember, outrunning the Order to the Council of Clans wouldn't have avoided a fight, since the meeting wasn't going to happen any faster no matter what Durkon* did.

Yes, if Durkon* had arrived early with Gontor*, instead of preparing for a failed ambush, he could have put better protections in place. However, he would have had far fewer allies to prevent the Order from circumventing those barriers, while the Order itself would have been short one dwarven cleric (but arguably up another, since Hilgya would have been more involved if she was still waiting to kill Durkon.) I don't remember if Durkon had to call his family himself, or if they'd heard about his arrival through other means, so it's plausible that they would have come out to help regardless.

With the benefit of hindsight, we know that Durkon's unique skillset and history was necessary for the win, but that wasn't something reasonably predictable when weighing tactical options. Remember, we're assuming that Durkon* isn't stupid--perhaps overconfident, yes, and able to make mistaken assumptions or analysis, but not stupid. With all of his spawn, he weighed taking them all to the Council of Clans immediately and making a stand against the Order as a united front against splitting up and setting up an ambush at a tactically favorable location and decided that that had the best chances of success. To the best of his knowledge, doing the single last thing withoutthe dozens of spawn would be considered an inferior choice to both of those options.

[Squire Doodad]

Honestly, Durkula made no mistakes. Well, he made a few (like insulting Roy over whether his brother's death was his fault), but outside of some outliers everything he did went flawlessly.

Even with spacing out for a moment, he could have just walked a bit to the side of the Antilife shell and eliminated Belkar readily with the help of a still dominated Hilgya that would have no qualms about killing Belkar. Problem solved.

What happened was that Durkula fell victim to what appears to have only happened a few times in the history of this world (if ever), and so because he was doing great up to that point, he would have been able to wipe the floor with the Order, possibly vamp them, and then easily get the vote to change unless Dvalin stepped in.

Durkula won.
But Durkon won harder.

[BasiliskSoldier]

Durkula was in a position where he could take an ability that neutralizes a Vampire's biggest weakness or an ability that massively enhances a Vampire's greatest strategic strength, at a point where his environment was already going to minimize any danger from the sun. He absolutely made the right call.

He didn't use his Spawn as effectively as he could have, but he would have been worse off without them. Engaging Roy personally was a mistake in hindsight, if he'd given Ponchula command of the spawn, and tasked her to clear the Order, she has a decent chance of taking them out, and even if she fails, the Order doesn't get Durkon back. But Durkula had no reason to think he couldn't take Roy and the Order.

Hel, he did! He defeated the Order, without significant casualties and in a way where he can raise all of them as Vampires. If Durkon didn't pull his memory gambit, a trick Durkula had no way of seeing coming, the Vampires win. Handily.

[The Pilgrim]

Durkula had to confront the Order in person. The Order would not have stopped to care for a second-stringer.

[deuterio12]

Hel, he did! He defeated the Order, without significant casualties and in a way where he can raise all of them as Vampires. If Durkon didn't pull his memory gambit, a trick Durkula had no way of seeing coming, the Vampires win. Handily.

Even with Durkon pulling his memory gambit, if not for Belkar's pendant suddenly gaining an auto-heal function out of nowhere it would've still been the vampire's victory since the negative energy would soon take over again.

Or the remaining vampires just finishing off the downed party right away instead of just taking small sips.

[Angel Bob]

Even with Durkon pulling his memory gambit, if not for Belkar's pendant suddenly gaining an auto-heal function out of nowhere it would've still been the vampire's victory since the negative energy would soon take over again.

Or the remaining vampires just finishing off the downed party right away instead of just taking small sips.

I know I'm just putting my foot in it by now, but there's no evidence the clasp healed Belkar – it just woke him up. He doesn't seem any less wounded before and after it activates, and doesn't take any damage before killing Durkula.

What you're objecting to is that the pain from the clasp woke Belkar from unconsciousness, but that's definitely not unprecedented. RAW often states that an unconscious creature wakes up if it takes damage, which we can infer is due to the pain the creature experiences. There are no stated limits for how "much" pain Protection from Evil causes if cast on an Evil creature, so it's entirely up to interpretation.

Sure, maybe you don't agree with this interpretation. If you were playing a D&D game and the DM made this call, you could dispute it. You might not win any popularity points at the table, but you'd be within your rights to start a rules argument. However, this comic is not a D&D game. If you don't like the author's interpretations, there's nothing stopping you from writing your own D&D based comic and advertising how stringently it obeys 3.5 RAW.

[Schroeswald]

Even with Durkon pulling his memory gambit, if not for Belkar's pendant suddenly gaining an auto-heal function out of nowhere it would've still been the vampire's victory since the negative energy would soon take over again.

Or the remaining vampires just finishing off the downed party right away instead of just taking small sips.

So you made a new argument there to address, but before that, remember thread 1174, we answered the first argument there, however I’d say that Durkon still could have killed himself (grab a stake and stab yourself), snapped Hilgya out of domination after giving up Kudzu, just ordered Hilgya to kill him or any number of things to win in that scenario.

Next, yes, Ponchula could have gone and bloodsucked Elan and Haley, it wouldn’t have done all that much because Hilgya was still standing there, so was Belkar while V and Roy would be ready soon, but she could of, but a plausible explanation is saving room for everyone else to eat, you split up the blood, everyone gets a bit and you get to figure out the spell slots needed for a quickened vampirization (If they had that many slots left for it, something I’m not certain of), is it a bit of a plot contrivance, I guess, but does it ruin everything, not in any way.

[BasiliskSoldier]

Even with Durkon pulling his memory gambit, if not for Belkar's pendant suddenly gaining an auto-heal function out of nowhere it would've still been the vampire's victory since the negative energy would soon take over again.

Or the remaining vampires just finishing off the downed party right away instead of just taking small sips.

Durkon had an indeterminate amount of time to act and high level clerical abilities. Belkar's revival eliminated the other two vampires and provided an easy way for Durkon to off himself, but I imagine there were other ways he could have accomplished that. Durkon getting a few rounds of control and a sneak attack on Curly and Ponchula probably still leads to a Vampire defeat even without Belkar.

But yeah, Durkula came within milimeters of complete victory. He knocks out his most dangerous opposition, raises five high level vampires (which more than make up for the lost vampire spawn) and Good Game. Nothing the dwarves can throw at him will be able to break his defenses at the council meeting.

[The Pilgrim]

Even with Durkon pulling his memory gambit, if not for Belkar's pendant suddenly gaining an auto-heal function out of nowhere it would've still been the vampire's victory since the negative energy would soon take over again.

Or the remaining vampires just finishing off the downed party right away instead of just taking small sips.

Let's assume that Belkar doesn't awakes.

Durkon just tells dominated Hilgya to take the child and then kill him. That would have been faster than having Belkar do it because Durkon doesn't needs to lose time dismissing the AntiLife Shell. And in fact he doesn't even needs Hilgya to be dominated. And, for good measure, he cast a mass cure wounds on the whole room as his last action before Hilgya offs him.

[deuterio12]

I know I'm just putting my foot in it by now, but there's no evidence the clasp healed Belkar – it just woke him up. He doesn't seem any less wounded before and after it activates, and doesn't take any damage before killing Durkula.

What you're objecting to is that the pain from the clasp woke Belkar from unconsciousness, but that's definitely not unprecedented. RAW often states that an unconscious creature wakes up if it takes damage, which we can infer is due to the pain the creature experiences. There are no stated limits for how "much" pain Protection from Evil causes if cast on an Evil creature, so it's entirely up to interpretation.

Only sleeping creatures are woken up by damage and being asleep isn't the same thing as being unconscious by RAW. If anything by RAW you use pain to make people unconsciosus in D&D, unless I missed the memo that attacking for non-lethal means delivering a sensual relaxing massage.


So you made a new argument there to address, but before that, remember thread 1174, we answered the first argument there
Something about how rage can be used while unconscious, not a valid answer since rage can't be used while unconscious.

Really every adventurer would be packing a clasp like that if they allow to shrug off being unconscious.



Next, yes, Ponchula could have gone and bloodsucked Elan and Haley, it wouldn’t have done all that much because Hilgya was still standing there, so was Belkar while V and Roy would be ready soon, but she could of, but a plausible explanation is saving room for everyone else to eat, you split up the blood, everyone gets a bit and you get to figure out the spell slots needed for a quickened vampirization (If they had that many slots left for it, something I’m not certain of), is it a bit of a plot contrivance, I guess, but does it ruin everything, not in any way.

Ah, evenly spliting a nice meal among the coterie before destroying the world in a matter of hours, truly the way of evil vampires.

Plus you don't need to keep them alive for fast vampirification, if anything you need to drain them dead first.


Durkon had an indeterminate amount of time to act and high level clerical abilities. Belkar's revival eliminated the other two vampires and provided an easy way for Durkon to off himself, but I imagine there were other ways he could have accomplished that. Durkon getting a few rounds of control and a sneak attack on Curly and Ponchula probably still leads to a Vampire defeat even without Belkar.


Now that's a fair argument. Still it seemed like he was packing mostly anti-living and undead support spells so not much left to off himself.



But yeah, Durkula came within milimeters of complete victory. He knocks out his most dangerous opposition, raises five high level vampires (which more than make up for the lost vampire spawn) and Good Game. Nothing the dwarves can throw at him will be able to break his defenses at the council meeting.

Even with his defeat, Durkula spreading the secrets of fast vampirification and the other hax spells Mallack researched is still a game changer.

Even if Hel somehow didn't learn them now in all her divine might, she does knows they're possible, and she's got all the time in the world(s) to figure out how to make more vampires learn them.

Let Loki and Thor think they've won even if the voting goes their way. The Vampire revolution is just getting started!

[The Pilgrim]

Even with his defeat, Durkula spreading the secrets of fast vampirification and the other hax spells Mallack researched is still a game changer.

Even if Hel somehow didn't learn them now in all her divine might, she does knows they're possible, and she's got all the time in the world(s) to figure out how to make more vampires learn them.

Let Loki and Thor think they've won even if the voting goes their way. The Vampire revolution is just getting started!

Nergal already knew those spells, given that it was him who granted them to Malack each day. No game change. No vampiric revolution started.

[Peelee]

Only sleeping creatures are woken up by damage and being asleep isn't the same thing as being unconscious by RAW. If anything by RAW you use pain to make people unconsciosus in D&D, unless I missed the memo that attacking for non-lethal means delivering a sensual relaxing massage.

You missed a different memo.

If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.

[EyethatBinds]

Vampire Durk's biggest mistake was talking too much. If he didn't (or have his subordinates) talk so damn much their plans would have been too obscure for the team to work out.

"Dude! Stop telling me your evil plans! If I know what they are I can stop you!"

Xykon didn't explain the gates to the order at all and they were so confused by his plans they all but assured his victory in Azure city. Now that they know his plans in detail, they beat him to the gate and destroyed it seconds after he saw it for the first time. The only reason they didn't beat him to the last gate is because minor villains keep distracting them with side plots.

If you're going to be evil, don't explain your plans to those opposed to you. Just execute them.

[Schroeswald]

Vampire Durk's biggest mistake was talking too much. If he didn't (or have his subordinates) talk so damn much their plans would have been too obscure for the team to work out.

"Dude! Stop telling me your evil plans! If I know what they are I can stop you!"

Xykon didn't explain the gates to the order at all and they were so confused by his plans they all but assured his victory in Azure city. Now that they know his plans in detail, they beat him to the gate and destroyed it seconds after he saw it for the first time. The only reason they didn't beat him to the last gate is because minor villains keep distracting them with side plots.

If you're going to be evil, don't explain your plans to those opposed to you. Just execute them.
Everything you said about Xykon was wrong, they knew his plans vaguely since they learned he was still alive, the only additional knowledge related to Team Evil that they have is Redcloak’s plan.

Azure city fell due to force of numbers on Team Evil, and Miko ruining everything, not any lack of knowledge of TE’s plan. Girard’s Gate was destroyed because the Order had absolutely no way to defend it from anyone, not because they knew the plan. And then Team Evil travelled to Kraagor’s Tomb immediately, they teleported away from the pyramid and to the gate instantaneously.

[skim172]

I can kind of see the logic here. If Durkula's vampire crew had been capable of going outdoors, that would have vastly increased their strategic options. They would've been able to exercise a lot more flexibility and planning.

Like the difference between having an army that's normal, and having an army that can fight only at night. An army that's dormant except during specific hours is going to rule out a lot of strategic avenues.

That said - Durkula wasn't thinking much about strategy, because Hel already had a definite plan in place, with enough specificity that even without Durkula being physically present, his minions knew enough to carry it out. So they probably weren't going to place much value on strategic flexibility.

In the end, it's really a parable on the value of contingency preparation and long-term thinking. That's what OOTS has always been about, really.

(Not really.)

[Schroeswald]

I can kind of see the logic here. If Durkula's vampire crew had been capable of going outdoors, that would have vastly increased their strategic options. They would've been able to exercise a lot more flexibility and planning.

Like the difference between having an army that's normal, and having an army that can fight only at night. An army that's dormant except during specific hours is going to rule out a lot of strategic avenues.

That said - Durkula wasn't thinking much about strategy, because Hel already had a definite plan in place, with enough specificity that even without Durkula being physically present, his minions knew enough to carry it out. So they probably weren't going to place much value on strategic flexibility.

In the end, it's really a parable on the value of contingency preparation and long-term thinking. That's what OOTS has always been about, really.

(Not really.)
Why would they need to fight outside when they were underground, except the hole in the ceiling it didn’t come up.

[Onyavar]

Failing to name his followers was a mistake. Elan proved that in this world if you don’t have a name you reduce your chance of survival in combat, and Durkon (and so presumably Durkon*) knew this.
Undurkon didn't know everything Durkon knew. That was the entire point of the vampirism plot. I think this crucial bit of information was withheld from Undurkon.


I don’t know, I’d say the most named people died first, Durkon* had Greg, Ponchula had a popular forum name, the Exarch (though he was probably more named than her) had a full and used title, Sandy had a forum nickname for awhile and Curly is still alive despite us just starting to give her one.

Those are forum names. Undurkon had no name for himself, neither did his followers. And lots of Durkon's created (unnamed) vampires died before him: First major group were the Stonepeople at the Summit Mountain, the second one was the tunnel ambush near the Firmament temple.

About "the" mistake of Undurkon, I would also point towards Durkon not setting up in the dining hall rather than in the debate room itself. The order was on its one, with only two dwarves for support. Durkon mobilized his family, and had his own plan as well. The order couldn't have possibly stormed the meeting room. But that's hindsight and there may be reasons in favor of the dining hall that Undurkon didn't tell the audience.

[Snails]

Hel's plan as is has a decent Plan A and Plan B.

Without fast vampirism, Hel has no Plan B. When the Godsmoot measure does not yet pass, Greg is stuck there without any allies for 3 days. Then the Order cleans up the would be vampires, as they finally believe Belkar.

Plan B, rigging the votes of the dwarven elders, requires multiple allies, which absolutely requires fast vampirism. He needs an ally to seize the orb of teleportation while key members of the the Order are distracted by the moot. He needs an ally to take his place at the moot, while he himself travels to dwarven lands.

Without the orb of teleportation, winning the race to the council is nigh impossible.

[D.One]

Thinking of it, if Hel wants the world destroyed, couldn't she send Durkon* to Xyon with the exact location (which door) of Kraagor's gate?

I don't know if she knows it, of course, but I bet the gods would quickly destroy the world if Xykon and RC were on the brink of giving the gate for TDO.

[BasiliskSoldier]

That honestly seems way more likely to go wrong than the plan she went with, which again, would have went off without a hitch if it wasn't for Durkon's memory trick.

[The Pilgrim]

Thinking of it, if Hel wants the world destroyed, couldn't she send Durkon* to Xyon with the exact location (which door) of Kraagor's gate?

I don't know if she knows it, of course, but I bet the gods would quickly destroy the world if Xykon and RC were on the brink of giving the gate for TDO.

Does Hel know the location of the Gates, though?

She doesn't had clerics during this world's tenure. Meaning she lacks eyes and ears in the World.

She hasn't been attending the Godsmots because of a lack of clerics, meaning she was almost certainly not present at the Godsmot that discussed the issue back in the times of the Scribblers.

And of the three pantheons, the Norther one was the one with no direct ties to the Scribblers. The Western Gods had Lirian via the Elven Gods. The Southern Gods had Soon, and also a Rift directly over their greatest city in the South. But the Northern Gods had no one, and the Rifts in the North were far from civilized lands.

Thor and others like Loki probably learnt the location from the other Pantheons at the Godsmot, but Hel, having no clerics to communicate, probably couldn't, and I don't see the other Gods sharing the info with her, later.

The Dark One certainly didn't know the location of the Gates, or Redcloak wouldn't have needed Serini's Diary. Why would Hel?

[RatElemental]

About "the" mistake of Undurkon, I would also point towards Durkon not setting up in the dining hall rather than in the debate room itself. The order was on its one, with only two dwarves for support. Durkon mobilized his family, and had his own plan as well. The order couldn't have possibly stormed the meeting room. But that's hindsight and there may be reasons in favor of the dining hall that Undurkon didn't tell the audience.

Come to think of it, this is kinda hard to explain. I mean the order didn't actually do anything relevant to stopping the Exarch except fighting the worm he summoned, largely because of the orange barrier.

[Cazero]

Thinking of it, if Hel wants the world destroyed, couldn't she send Durkon* to Xyon with the exact location (which door) of Kraagor's gate?

I don't know if she knows it, of course, but I bet the gods would quickly destroy the world if Xykon and RC were on the brink of giving the gate for TDO.They would also destroy Hel for violating the explicit gag order on the Snarl and endangering them all.

[D.One]

They would also destroy Hel for violating the explicit gag order on the Snarl and endangering them all.

Not if she plays by the rules and just tells her Cleric to help and eventually "recruit" a powerful lich.

As I said, I don't know if Hel knows the exact location of the Gate.

Remember Durkon already knew about the Sanrl, so she wouldn't be breaking rules.

[Schroeswald]

Not if she plays by the rules and just tells her Cleric to help and eventually "recruit" a powerful lich.

As I said, I don't know if Hel knows the exact location of the Gate.

Remember Durkon already knew about the Sanrl, so she wouldn't be breaking rules.

Would you be inclined to help someone who helped to free the Snarl in the last world? Because I’d be inclined to show that goddess that doing that isn’t tolerated, even if it didn’t technically break any rules Id find a way.

[D.One]

Would you be inclined to help someone who helped to free the Snarl in the last world? Because I’d be inclined to show that goddess that doing that isn’t tolerated, even if it didn’t technically break any rules Id find a way.

I share the sentiment, but I really think these gods don't cooperate out of goodwill alone, but mostly because of the intricate rules they have made. Seh would be viewed as an evil, cruel, self-centered goddess who didn't care for anything beyond her own power and position? Sure. Quite just like now.

[Peelee]

Not if she plays by the rules and just tells her Cleric to help and eventually "recruit" a powerful lich.

As I said, I don't know if Hel knows the exact location of the Gate.

Remember Durkon already knew about the Sanrl, so she wouldn't be breaking rules.

Durkon knew about the Snarl, and the vampire may have known about the Snarl, but there's no reason to believe the vampire told any of his people. Unless Curly or the Frontarch know about the Snarl, she can't tell them.

[Schroeswald]

I share the sentiment, but I really think these gods don't cooperate out of goodwill alone, but mostly because of the intricate rules they have made. Seh would be viewed as an evil, cruel, self-centered goddess who didn't care for anything beyond her own power and position? Sure. Quite just like now.

Oh yes, but I’d say that they also operate out of self-interest, they are terrified of the Snarl (how else do you think you’ve got the Chaotics at least paying lip-service to the rules) and so someone who helped free it would be looked down on and wouldn’t be getting any favors for a few worlds.

[woweedd]

I'd say the accelerate vampirism was a mistake...But only in that, as is implied, lacking the three-day adjustment period is what made him vulnerable to Durkon's master stroke. I assume that, in a normal vampire, they aren't just shown the target's worst day: They're shown a carefully structured sequence of negative moments in the victim's life, helping them build up a separate identity strong enough to not be overwhelmed by positivity. However, since he lacked that period, only having the one memory to work with, his personality was left weak and barely-formed, weak enough that Durkon could use his exceptionally strong will and flood of life experience to overwhelm HPOH.

[The Pilgrim]

Only sleeping creatures are woken up by damage and being asleep isn't the same thing as being unconscious by RAW. If anything by RAW you use pain to make people unconscious

By the way, if you are going to complain that The Giant didn't abide by RAW, then it should be noted that, by RAW, the Exarch could never had broken into V's private chamber in the Mechane to steal the Orb, as he was never invited in by anyone with authority to do so. In fact, neither the Exarch or any other vampire could have got into the Orange Room, much less the Council's Room, as those aren't public places and they were never invited in by anyone with authority to do so.



Vampire Weaknesses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)
(...)
They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.
(...)

[Squire Doodad]

By the way, if you are going to complain that The Giant didn't abide by RAW, then it should be noted that, by RAW, the Exarch could never had broken into V's private chamber in the Mechane to steal the Orb, as he was never invited in by anyone with authority to do so. In fact, neither the Exarch or any other vampire could have got into the Orange Room, much less the Council's Room, as those aren't public places and they were never invited in by anyone with authority to do so.

Maybe Durkula had permission to go aboard (being told by a commanding officer, Roy, to go take a look around), and so had permission to let his subordinate in?

[The Pilgrim]

I don't care. But if someone is going to partisan in this forum about how their beloved characters only lost because the Author fudged the rules, it should be noted that those characters only had a chance at winning because the Author was fudging the rules in favor of them.

[hroþila]

Come to think of it, this is kinda hard to explain. I mean the order didn't actually do anything relevant to stopping the Exarch except fighting the worm he summoned, largely because of the orange barrier.
The thing is, if Durkon had done that, the Order would indeed not have been able to storm the meeting room. Meaning that Durkon wouldn't have got the chance to fight Roy, which is something he wanted to do for his own sake, independently from (and at odds with) Hel's plan. See the comic where Hel has to remind Durkon about his actual goal, and all the dialogue between Durkon and Roy during their fight at the Godsmoot.