Arcane/Destined Bloodrager advice

[Elysiume]

I'm currently eyeing Bloodrager as a class for my backup character. Due to IC conflicts (and deaths) it's feeling increasingly likely that I'm going to need to rotate a new character in. 15 PB, only core + tiefling + aquatic elf, all core/advanced/ultimate books with extra splats being on a case-by-case basis. We get weapon finesse, combat expertise, and precise shot for free.

I was looking at Arcane primarily for Greater Arcane Bloodrage alongside the various features from the Destined bloodline that beef up AC/saves, along with taking Steelblood. The tentative build I was looking at:

Race: Pitborn Tiefling
Racial traits: Pass for Human, Underworld Guide
Stats: 16 13 14 8 10 14 (after racials)
Traits: Fate's Favored, (?)
Class: Bloodrager (Crossblooded Rager, Steelblood)

Feats:
1) Power Attack
3) Combat Reflexes?
5) Step Up
BL6) Disruptive
7) Steadfast Personality
9) Raging Vitality
BL9) Spellbreaker (eventually going for Teleport Tactician?)

Bloodline Powers:
1) Disruptive Bloodrage (Arcane)
4) Fated Bloodrager (Destined)
8) Greater Arcane Bloodrage (Arcane)
12) Defy Death (Destined)
16) Unstoppable (Destined)

Spells
1) Blade Lash, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, ?
2) Mirror Image, See Invisibility, ?

Notable questions:
1) I've considered Steelblood and can't decide if it's worth the tradeoff. There are no other heavy armor users in the party right now which is definitely an influence on the decision. With Fated Bloodrager and Fate's Favored bumping up AC, throwing on platemail should give a pretty solid AC. Getting enough dex will be a struggle unless I can convince my GM that non-belt +dex items are fine.
2) Maybe an Eldritch Heritage? The orc/abyssal ones give nice strength boosts but neither Touch of Rage nor Claws are anything I'm interested in so it'd be a huge feat tax for a very lategame benefit.
3) The other class that's high on my list is Magus which is (I think) much better when they shine but more counterable by resistances/immunities. How does Bloodrager stack up?

Are there any feats/spells/etc. that I'm overlooking?

[Kurald Galain]

3) The other class that's high on my list is Magus which is (I think) much better when they shine but more counterable by resistances/immunities. How does Bloodrager stack up?
The Magus has various ways of dealing with resist/immune as long as it's not the build that spams Shocking Grasp every turn :smallbiggrin: I'd say Bloodrager deals more damage and is easier to build, whereas Magus has better defenses, action economy, and versatility. There's also a Magus archetype which gets bloodline powers, if you're so inclined.


Are there any feats/spells/etc. that I'm overlooking?
The Magus guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) has a feat and spell list that would apply to any gish class, including bloodragers. HTH!

[Elysiume]

I've actually read your guide in the past regarding magi (and thanks for the guide, by the way!) but unfortunately a lot of the strong and/or cool spells for magi don't seem to shine for bloodragers. Or just outright aren't on their list, like Vanish, Blade Tutor's Spirit, or Bladed Dash. Might be worth investing in a Ring of Spell Knowledge for one of the more interesting spells...

Long Arm is probably a good option for when the -AC from Enlarge Person would be perilous; even with Steelblood AC will likely be a problem (especially, as mentioned, if I can't get an easier +dex option). True Strike is an amusing option to pair with Blade Lash as a bloodrager for a gimmick opener with greater bloodrage to cast True Strike followed with a Blade Lash for +30 on a trip attempt.

[upho]

We get weapon finesse, combat expertise, and precise shot for free.Would I be right if I guessed this also means that you don't have to meet any "Int 13" prerequisite of feats which also has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite (such as many combat maneuver related feats)?

(If this isn't the case, getting Combat Expertise for free has little benefit for most PCs not otherwise prioritizing Int, and most of these would still want Dirty Fighting (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat/) instead of Int 13. Speaking of, it may be a good idea to suggest to your GM that PCs are allowed to choose whether to get Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting for free. Or that they simply get Dirty Fighting instead.)


I was looking at Arcane primarily for Greater Arcane Bloodrage alongside the various features from the Destined bloodline that beef up AC/saves, along with taking Steelblood.I recommend you reconsider the Crossblooded Rager. Unless you're looking to realize some highly specific and especially great combo difficult/impossible to replicate through other options, the -4 net total penalty on Will saves is a very high price to pay for a bit of bloodline power cherry-picking, and especially risky for most bloodragers (you can typically wreak absolute havoc on a party if controlled by the enemy). Keep in mind the Destined 4th level power won't be able to fully mitigate the penalty until 16th level, and in many ways it also ends up being a tax you pay for making Crossblooded less punishing, often in addition to the Steadfast Personality feat and/or the superstition rage power via the Primalist archetype (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo-bloodrager-archetypes/primalist).

And speaking of the Primalist, it's typically a vastly better option than Crossblooded for increasing and adapting your bloodline benefits, as many barbarian rage powers may grant great and often unique melee benefits, especially in combos with related bloodline powers and feats. Easily the most versatile bloodrager archetype, and typically the strongest by a fair margin. Thankfully it can be combined with nearly all other archetypes without issues, since it only provides optional replacements.



The tentative build I was looking at:It appears you're looking to make a tank/defender type build with a focus on hindering spellcasters. If that's the case, from a purely mechanical optimization perspective, I recommend you replace Crossblooded and Destined bloodline with Primalist and get the superstition, witch hunter and the amazing spell sunder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/spell-sunder-su) plus the internal fortitude (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/internal-fortitude-ex) rage powers. Complement with sunder feat(s) and a flawed scarlet and green cabochon ioun stone (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-green-cabochon) (8,000 gp) for rage-cycling so you can use spell sunder several times per encounter, and to gain immunity to exhaustion, fatigue, sickened and nauseated conditions. Taking all these four rage powers as soon as possible does delay the arcane bloodline's great 4th and 8th level powers, though you can choose to replace the less fantastic 12th level power instead of the 8th level one (you can decide and change this as you want whenever you gain a bloodline power at 4th and later).

Also, I suggest you replace Step Up and simply use a reach weapon to prevent an adjacent enemy to 5-foot step out of your threatened area. Preferably a double-chained kama to threaten all spaces within your melee reach with one end of the weapon, especially if you're able to gain proficiency via a cracked opalescent white pyramid (1,500 gp), and even more if you also can put that ioun stone in a wayfinder (500 gp) for Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.


1) I've considered Steelblood and can't decide if it's worth the tradeoff. There are no other heavy armor users in the party right now which is definitely an influence on the decision. With Fated Bloodrager and Fate's Favored bumping up AC, throwing on platemail should give a pretty solid AC. Getting enough dex will be a struggle unless I can convince my GM that non-belt +dex items are fine.I'd reconsider the Steelblood archetype, as uncanny dodge is very valuable to a tank/defender type of build, and the defensive nature of the Arcane bloodline's earlier powers and a reach weapon makes prioritizing your armor AC even less worthwhile than it already is for bloodragers (notably thanks to defensive buff spells and DR/-).

And since you already have a reason to invest a bit in Dex for Combat Reflexes, a breastplate can soon grant you nearly as great AC as plate, and you avoid the speed penalty completely and only take a -1 armor check penalty if you find/craft/buy it in mithral for +4,000 gp later on. (In higher levels you can wear a Celestial Plate in mithral without issues or any penalties even if you don't have heavy armor proficiency, which is about as good as it gets.) In short, the Steelblood features can rather easily be replicated through other options, while the replaced features cannot.

So a build outline would be something like:

Race: Pitborn Tiefling
Racial traits: Pass for Human, Underworld Guide
Stats: 16 13 14 8 10 14 (after racials)
Traits: Dangerously Curious (UMD as class skill & +1 bonus), Reactionary (+2 initiative)
Class: Bloodrager (Primalist)

Feats:
1) Power Attack
3) Combat Reflexes
5) Raging Vitality
BL6) Disruptive
7) Improved Sunder
9) Greater Sunder
BL9) Improved Initiative
11) Spellbreaker (note minimum 10th level)

Bloodline Powers:
1) Disruptive Bloodrage
4) Rage powers: superstition, witch hunter
8) Greater Arcane Bloodrage - OR - Rage powers: internal fortitude, spell sunder
12) Greater Arcane Bloodrage - OR - Rage powers: internal fortitude, spell sunder
16) True Arcane Bloodrage (this is fantastic; can turn you into for example a Huge devil monkey (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Devil%20Monkey) which can wield a reach weapon for 30' reach)

Spells
1) Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Long Arm, Shield (note that some or even most of these are best used with a wand)
2) Mirror Image, See Invisibility, Brow Gasher, Glitterdust

Important/Recommended Gear: +1 dispelling furious double-chained kama (18,300 gp), cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder (2,000 gp), flawed scarlet and green cabochon ioun stone (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-green-cabochon) (8,000 gp)

You can easily add other complementing control/debuff options to this in order to improve your defender/control abilities, for example adding carefree combat demoralization (Intimidating Prowess, Cornugon Smash, cruel weapon), dirty trick shenanigans (Dirty Trick Master, Kitsune Vengeance or Fox Trickery, dueling (PSFG) weapon etc)


2) Maybe an Eldritch Heritage? The orc/abyssal ones give nice strength boosts but neither Touch of Rage nor Claws are anything I'm interested in so it'd be a huge feat tax for a very lategame benefit.I'd stay away since you're not that extremely dependent on having a great Str bonus. And it doesn't stack with manuals in higher levels, nor size bonuses from True Arcane Bloodrage. If you want to boost your Str, the easiest is dipping a level of Mutagenic Mauler brawler for alchemist's mutagen granting +4 alchemical bonus to Str.


3) The other class that's high on my list is Magus which is (I think) much better when they shine but more counterable by resistances/immunities. How does Bloodrager stack up?What Kurald said above, with the possible addition that bloodragers - like a few other melee oriented martials - can get very complex combined combat mechanics tricky to build right and initially understand, but usually quite easy in play once you get the hang of how they work, and potentially very action-efficient and highly effective. Somewhat related to this, bloodragers can also get stronger and more reliable melee control outside of their own turn than a magus, making them a bit more suitable as "active" tanks/defenders, but it takes more effort and careful building than for a magus to get good melee control via spellstrike. The magus is also in some ways more forgiving thanks to having prepared spells easy to change, but also has quite a lot of additional important moving parts, mechanics and options to consider.

Very generally speaking, I'd say the great versatility and action economy gives the magus a clearly greater potential as an adventurer overall, and it offers a greater number of distinctly different good build variants, while the bloodrager is better for especially certain combat focuses (damage and party defense/AoO control, probably more so in a high-op game requiring more consistent high numbers).


I've actually read your guide in the past regarding magi (and thanks for the guide, by the way!) but unfortunately a lot of the strong and/or cool spells for magi don't seem to shine for bloodragers. Or just outright aren't on their list, like Vanish, Blade Tutor's Spirit, or Bladed Dash. Might be worth investing in a Ring of Spell Knowledge for one of the more interesting spells...Keep in mind that bloodragers have pretty easy time getting a high Use Magic Device (get a trait for class skill), which can afford them a lot more casting flexibility via scrolls and especially wands (only DC 20 UMD check, and a skill bonus of +19 should be easily doable by no later than 10th).


Long Arm is probably a good option for when the -AC from Enlarge Person would be perilous; even with Steelblood AC will likely be a problem (especially, as mentioned, if I can't get an easier +dex option). True Strike is an amusing option to pair with Blade Lash as a bloodrager for a gimmick opener with greater bloodrage to cast True Strike followed with a Blade Lash for +30 on a trip attempt.An increased threatened area typically multiplies the value and effectiveness of all related options, and is a top priority for most melee builds not focusing strictly on charge damage. So long arm is fantastic with your anti-caster and AoO related feats and abilities which are dependent on your melee reach. You should probably also consider getting a pair of longarm bracers for the same reason.

Blade lash is only worth the standard action in pretty rare situations and typically only during early levels without additional trip investments. But true strike can be great with rage-cycling, although not so much without it (since you'll typically want continuous buff effect instead of a one-shot if you're only going to enter rage at the start of combat).

HTH!

[Elysiume]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm guessing my DM won't allow rage cycling. I know it's totally valid RAW, but the fluff around inferior ioun stones marks them as incredibly rare which, combined with the seemingly-cheesy nature of rage cycling, would probably make my DM nix it. I asked him and didn't get a conclusive answer so I'm going to assume the answer'll be "no."

Thanks for the feedback! To the specifics:

Would I be right if I guessed this also means that you don't have to meet any "Int 13" prerequisite of feats which also has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite (such as many combat maneuver related feats)?

(If this isn't the case, getting Combat Expertise for free has little benefit for most PCs not otherwise prioritizing Int, and most of these would still want Dirty Fighting (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat/) instead of Int 13. Speaking of, it may be a good idea to suggest to your GM that PCs are allowed to choose whether to get Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting for free. Or that they simply get Dirty Fighting instead.)Only if they only have Combat Expertise. If they require Int 13 and Combat Expertise, I wouldn't qualify. I may propose Dirty Fighting if it comes up.


I recommend you reconsider the Crossblooded Rager. Unless you're looking to realize some highly specific and especially great combo difficult/impossible to replicate through other options, the -4 net total penalty on Will saves is a very high price to pay for a bit of bloodline power cherry-picking, and especially risky for most bloodragers (you can typically wreak absolute havoc on a party if controlled by the enemy). Keep in mind the Destined 4th level power won't be able to fully mitigate the penalty until 16th level, and in many ways it also ends up being a tax you pay for making Crossblooded less punishing, often in addition to the Steadfast Personality feat and/or the superstition rage power via the Primalist archetype (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo-bloodrager-archetypes/primalist).

And speaking of the Primalist, it's typically a vastly better option than Crossblooded for increasing and adapting your bloodline benefits, as many barbarian rage powers may grant great and often unique melee benefits, especially in combos with related bloodline powers and feats. Easily the most versatile bloodrager archetype, and typically the strongest by a fair margin. Thankfully it can be combined with nearly all other archetypes without issues, since it only provides optional replacements.
I think you're selling Crossblooded short, especially with regard to the save penalties. With Fate's Favored, by level 8 you're taking a net -1 to will saves (while raging, +1 while not raging) and also getting +3 to fort saves, reflex saves, and AC. It falls behind again at 11 when Greater Bloodrage comes online, but while it's struggling to keep up with the penalties to will saves it's continuing to give substantial increases to the other saves and AC. There definitely still is the opportunity cost--it could be replaced with another bloodline ability or two rage powers.

The reason I wasn't leveraging Primalist is that there's a lot that I want from both the Arcane and Destined bloodlines. Arcane is, honestly, pretty anemic other than Greater Arcane Bloodrage, but that's a super valuable ability to have that's difficult to replicate elsewhere. It also serves as an option for getting DimDoor as a known spell which is a fantastic panic button. I'm not really planning for much at 16+; I expect this campaign to end at either 16 or 17.


[snipped rage cycling/inferior ioun stonesAs addressed earlier, I'm wary of planning around anything that involves rage cycling or specifically damaged ioun stones.



I'd reconsider the Steelblood archetype, as uncanny dodge is very valuable to a tank/defender type of build, and the defensive nature of the Arcane bloodline's earlier powers and a reach weapon makes prioritizing your armor AC even less worthwhile than it already is for bloodragers (notably thanks to defensive buff spells and DR/-).

And since you already have a reason to invest a bit in Dex for Combat Reflexes, a breastplate can soon grant you nearly as great AC as plate, and you avoid the speed penalty completely and only take a -1 armor check penalty if you find/craft/buy it in mithral for +4,000 gp later on. (In higher levels you can wear a Celestial Plate in mithral without issues or any penalties even if you don't have heavy armor proficiency, which is about as good as it gets.) In short, the Steelblood features can rather easily be replicated through other options, while the replaced features cannot.I've gone back and forth on this. Steelblood will still beat a breastplate if you've got dex going; they get armor training to raise the max dex bonus. Almost certainly won't be able to get Celestial Plate. On one hand, the extra AC from Steelblood is useful in every fight (as long as it's not all mages), while uncanny dodge is only useful in specific circumstances. On the other hand, when uncanny dodge is relevant it's hugely relevant, and a 30-40' movespeed is quite a bit nicer than 25-30'. The ability to pop displacement at the start of each fight does, as you said, make beefy AC even less important.


I'd stay away since you're not that extremely dependent on having a great Str bonus. And it doesn't stack with manuals in higher levels, nor size bonuses from True Arcane Bloodrage. If you want to boost your Str, the easiest is dipping a level of Mutagenic Mauler brawler for alchemist's mutagen granting +4 alchemical bonus to Str.Yeah, it was a pretty heavy feat investment for a marginal and lategame boost. Agreed that it's not worth it.