Wu jen Jade Phoenix Mage Body Outside Body build help

[Elves]

Edit: see post #53 for thread summary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?595708-Wu-jen-Jade-Phoenix-Mage-build-help-metamagic-reduction&p=24105397#post24105397)

I need to make a high level Jade Phoenix Mage NPC. Because I want them to have an interesting shtick, I really like this build idea (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=12814.msg432950#msg432950) for a wu jen gish who uses persistent Body Outside Body with White Raven Tactics. Archmage's SLA ability plus Supernatural Transformation feat from SS gives an infinite shadow clone army.

The character is supposed to be the most powerful of the current 12 Jade Phoenix Mages in the Nine Swords implied setting (which will be getting more detail in the project in my sig).

He should also be able to use the other wu jen JPM trick of Transcend Mortality>Emerald Immolation, which mandates 10 levels of JPM, leaving us with the build stub wu jen 5/warblade 1/JPM10/Archmage 1/other+3.

The build needs a way of getting Persistent Spell onto Body Outside Body (cast from a normal slot to initiate the combo, since SLA/Su abilities can't be metamagicked). There must a better way of doing this than spending four whole feats on metamagic reduction feats just to get it down to a 9th level slot. The normal gish workaround of Arcane Disciple for Divine Power doesn't work due to not applying to the clone army.


So here's the order: for this build, with 3 free levels, arbitrary wealth, and around 4-6 feats to spend, how would you most effectively go about persisting Body Outside Body while still maintaining 2/3 BAB and 3/3 arcane casting?

It would be great but far from essential to also be able to persist Transcend Mortality.


General build advice also welcome. Thanks.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Naenhoon illumian, probably? Do you need your JPM to be any specific race?

[Elves]

I considered that but I don't think you can use nightsticks without actually having Turn Undead since it says four more uses.

Is there a way of getting Turn Undead without spending a level, or a class with Turn Undead and arcane CL at 1st level? If so, naenhoon in a heartbeat.

Race can be any. My ideal flavor choice is lesser air genasi, but any race is fine.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Is there a way of getting Turn Undead without spending a level, or a class with Turn Undead and arcane CL at 1st level? If so, naenhoon in a heartbeat.
Sacred Exorcist gives Turn Undead at level one, and advances arcane casting. Significant skill requirements, but dismissal is on the Wu Jen list, so that's pretty doable.


Edit: The other way to get persistomancy is Spelldancer, which grants way too much metamagic for a one-level dip, but is hard to enter, due to the high feat requirements (Combat Casting, Dodge, Endurance, Mobility).


Edit two: WRT is a third-level maneuver, so you need IL 5 to take it, which means eight levels of non-initiating classes before crusader 1. Since you're also taking ten levels of JPM and a level of Archmage, you're essentially taking twelve levels after 8th level. You'd be locked into wu jen 5-6/ruathar 1-2/sacred exorcist 1/crusader 1/jade phoenix mage 10/archmage 1, which gets you +16 base attack, but only with fractional base attack bonus (the extra quarter base attack from Ruathar is crucial).

[Elves]

Edit:
WRT is a third-level maneuver, so you need IL 5 to take it, which means eight levels of non-initiating classes before crusader 1.

Ah, jeez, you're right. Martial Study (WRT) might be the simplest way then.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm a novice at building gishes, so I'll ask:

between archmage 2nd, spellsword 1st, and abjchamp 1st, all of which have the necessary BAB and CL, which would you call the first and second most beneficial for this build?
Well, see my edit, but in general, I'd rank them archmage 2 = abjurant champion 1 > spellsword 1, though AC does cost an extra feat. The free Extend is nice, the High Arcana is also nice.


Martial Study is worse than taking crusader, because you're only getting one WRT per encounter, instead of one every few rounds, and far fewer maneuvers in general. I'd definitely consider the Ruathar build.

[Elves]

I was suggesting taking Martial Study (WRT) in addition to the crusader dip, at a later level. The benefit would be getting to take archmage 2nd and spellsword 1st (or abjchamp if using spelldancer since they share prereqs) instead of ruathar. Effectively, trading one feat slot for +.5 BAB, one High Arcana, -10% ASF, and one more maneuver known, which I think is not a terrible trade.


With fractional BAB the spelldancer build could also work: WJ5/spelldancer1/ruathar2/crusader1/JPM10/archmage1.


Edit: Sacred Exorcist also opens the way for Trickery Devotion, which increases the clone fun by quite a bit.

Edit2: Speaking of feats, there's also Extend Supernatural Ability, though unfortunately it's only 1/day instead of the SLA metamagic feats which are 3/day. Wonder why that is.

[ben-zayb]

Sorry for the doublepost, but new question: is persistomancy even necessary for the Body Outside Body chain, or just convenient?

Duplicates created by duplicates using your (Su) ability don't vanish when the duplicate who summoned them does, right? Putting aside the chaining, if you simply cast Body Outside Body, your duplicates will last until the spell ends even if you die, unless I'm wrong.

If so, the longevity of the initial duplicates doesn't matter that much since they only have the Su ability 2/day whereas you can start the chain as many times per day as you have spell slots or scrolls.Technically, the Generation 2 clone/s won't vanish, but you'd have to make your Gen 1 clone/s order the Gen 2 clone/s to follow you instead. Same goes for Gen X clones to Gen X+1 clones.

Since you are abusing BoB, I wholeheartedly recommend getting at least 2 Incantatrix levels so that your clones can (ab)use Cooperative Metamagic for your own Persistomancy.

[Elves]

Technically, the Generation 2 clone/s won't vanish, but you'd have to make your Gen 1 clone/s order the Gen 2 clone/s to follow you instead. Same goes for Gen X clones to Gen X+1 clones.

Since you are abusing BoB, I wholeheartedly recommend getting at least 2 Incantatrix levels so that your clones can (ab)use Cooperative Metamagic for your own Persistomancy.

Oh wow, that's amazing and I love the synergy. It doesn't involve any actual spellcasting so it should be legal. Compared to the Naenhoon method it also saves you a swift action, which could be useful not for BOB but for other spells in-combat.

The question is, can it be used to empower a (Su) effect? I doubt it. An SLA, probably, but SLAs pretty clearly fall under the umbrella of "cannot cast spells".

So a clone could assist you (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/chidoriuchihha/images/8/80/Rasengan_shadow_clons_jutsu.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100520013129&path-prefix=es) when you cast it from your slots, but they couldn't persist each other or persist it when you cast from your 2/day (Su) ability -- which is not actually a loss because your first casting of BOB wouldn't have a clone to assist you anyway. Effectively, your 2/day (Su) ability is what you use to initiate the chain and then you can prepare BOB in your normal slots, expending them with clone-assisted persistomancy as needed to double/triple/etc the speed at which your clone army grows.

The only thing that would make this ideal is a way to use metamagic on (Su) abilities...

[Anthrowhale]

Metanode spell is the only feat I know which reduces metamagic cost for prepared spells by more than one/feat. A limitation is that you can only cast this in an earth node of sufficient power.

[Maryring]

So, I might be missing something, but if the question is how to persist BoB, shouldn't it be possible to just grab a Rod of Persist Metamagic? After all, he's arbitrarily wealthy.

[Elves]

That rod is from Pathfinder, there isn’t one in 3.5. Could it be homebrewed? Of course, it’s just not that classy.

I guess the only way to get (Su) metamagic is the feats from TOM. The Extend one could be worth it though 1/day is annoying.

————

I asked this in the RAW thread but I’d like to hear what you guys think as well:


"This spell creates one or more indistinguishable duplicates of you... The duplicates you create each have one-quarter of your hit point total at the time of casting."

So if a duplicate created by this spell uses BOB, does that mean the duplicates they create will have 1/4th of their HP, ie 1/16th of yours? Or does the “you” remain fixed, referring to you, the original creature who has the (Su) ability being employed? Even if the latter, does the "at the time of casting" clause make it 1/4 anyway?

If true, it nerfs BOB chaining a bit since you quickly reach the point where the duplicates all have 1HP.

[Maryring]

Huh, you're right. It's got most metamagics, but not persistent. My fault for not reading as closely as I should've.

[Efrate]

Could you acorn of far travel from a strong enough earth node?

[Anthrowhale]

Could you acorn of far travel from a strong enough earth node?

Potentially.

With regards to BOB, I'm assuming that it's 1/4, 1/16, 1/64, etc...

[Elves]

Earth nodes are in the Underdark, I don't know how well an oak tree would grow there. Daylight can't be permanencied unfortunately...what's the simplest way of getting a tree to grow underground? I doubt the magic light from a light spell has the same nutrients as sunlight.


Buildwise, currently looking at wu jen 5/crs1/JPM10/archmage2/incantatrix2, which does require taking Martial Study (White Raven Tactics).

With fractional BAB, this alternative could work -- obviating the need for martial study (WRT) -- IF x could be a class with +1 BAB and +1 CL at 1st that doesn't require more than +3 BAB to enter. However, I haven't found anything. Ruathar's only +.75.

wu jen5/incantatrix2/x1/crs1/JPM10/archmage1

Or alternately, if wu jen 5th level could be swapped with a class that advances wu jen casting and has +.75 BAB.

[Anthrowhale]

Earth nodes are in the Underdark,
If you read close, they don't actually have to be underground, although it's fair to say that's common.


I don't know how well an oak tree would grow there. Daylight can't be permanencied unfortunately...what's the simplest way of getting a tree to grow underground? I doubt the magic light from a light spell has the same nutrients as sunlight.

Continual flame (20' radius light) and Glowing Orb (60' radius light) are permanent. Celestial Brilliance is "brighter than bright sunlight" in a 60' radius and lasts day/level.



Buildwise, currently looking at wu jen 5/crs1/JPM10/archmage2/incantatrix2, which does require taking Martial Study (White Raven Tactics).

With fractional BAB, this alternative could work -- obviating the need for martial study (WRT) -- IF x could be a class with +1 BAB and +1 CL at 1st that doesn't require more than +3 BAB to enter. However, I haven't found anything. Ruathar's only +.75.

wu jen5/incantatrix2/x1/crs1/JPM10/archmage1

Or alternately, if wu jen 5th level could be swapped with a class that advances wu jen casting and has +.75 BAB.

Tainted Spellcaster 1 from Dragon #302 works.

[Elves]

So wu jen 4/tainted spellcaster1/incantatrix2/ruathar1/crusader1/jpm10/archmage1, with fractional BAB, or the Martial Study build I mentioned above without it. That's pretty good. Thanks Anthro.


Using fractional BAB for the Martial Study build you could also dip SacEx1 instead of Archmage 2, and get both Naenhoon free metamagic AND clone-based free metamagic, but that seems unnecessary.


I'm happy with the build then, my only remaining question would be: for the build version that takes Archmage 2nd, what High Arcana would be especially good? Specifically, you could take SLA again so that each clone can create 16 copies of itself instead of 8, but that might be excessive. It also gives you 1 less slot for persisted BOB*.

*Unless Cooperative Metamagic can also be used for spells being cast from items, which I'm not sure of.

[ArtAndor]

Book of Erotic Fantasy has a serious class named Metaphysical Spellshaper

It is a 3 level class that gives you a bonus MM feat, reduces cost of all MM by 1 and allows you to spend your ability scores instead of spell levels to cast them (And it is treatable by restoration). Aside for weird flavor text and a couple of spelling errors, it is a pretty solid class and fits your original build without any issues.

[Elves]

Yeah, but it's third party and laughably OP. With third party stuff allowed I would instead just use a good homebrew PRC from here or Minmaxboards.


Now here's a question:
Is it worth going warblade over crusader for more reliable access to the White Raven Tactics loop, despite it taking more actions?

[Anthrowhale]

So wu jen 4/tainted spellcaster1/incantatrix2/ruathar1/crusader1/jpm10/archmage1, with fractional BAB, or the Martial Study build I mentioned above without it. That's pretty good. Thanks Anthro.


A funky aspect of Tainted Spellcaster is that it explicitly allows you to do nonlinear removal, which is particularly helpful for gish builds.

If a Tainted has one of his levels permanently drained or loses a level due to being raised, he can choose to have it be the highest level of the tainted class he has attained regardless of what class level was most recently gained.

Given this, you could backstory for something like this:

wu jen 4/tainted spellcaster 3/incantatrix2/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 1

Now drain/resurrect away the tainted spellcaster levels.
->wu jen 4/incantatrix2/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 1

Checking qualifications here, start by assuming that every prestige class is unqualified, implying only BAB, saves, and skills are available from prestige classes. Therefore, you have BAB+5, enabling qualification for Dragon Slayer 1. With Dragon Slayer 1, you have access to simple/martial weapons and armors to qualify for Spellsword as well as access level 3 arcane spells enabling qualification for Incantatrix. With those class features, the net effect is 8 levels of Wu-jen casting with BAB+5.

-> wu jen 4/incantatrix2/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 1/crusader 1/jpm10/archmage1

You have BAB 16.5 (or 16 without fractionals) and cast as a Wu Jen 17.

Obviously this is a bit unusual, but it seems to be both RAW and RAI while bending over backwards to check that prestige class prerequisites are always satisfied.

Minor variation: you could use Abjurant Champion 2 instead, although you have to finagle a martial weapon proficiency via feat/elf/outsider/etc...

[Elves]

Yeah, I saw your thread on that when I searched the class. It's sweet and ingenious, I'd say a little much for an NPC, although a simple backstory does occur to me: make the "fiendish" possessor be the Souldrake, the evil entity the Jade Phoenix Mages were created to contain. Early in life, before he was aware of his "true identity" as a reincarnated JPM, the Souldrake drew on the ancient pact binding them to enter his soul and try to take him over. The other Jade Phoenix Mages detected this taint and tracked him down, and using harsh negative energy "surgery" they managed to expulse the Souldrake's taint from him. They then took him into their order as a novice and he became one of them.

Not to get fluffy on ya...

What do you think of the warblade/crusader question by the way?

[Anthrowhale]

What do you think of the warblade/crusader question by the way?

I didn't understand how the WRT loop worked but reliability does sound good.

[Elves]

Body Outside Body doesn't say the clones can't use maneuvers. Of course, chronologically it couldn't, so maybe you find that iffy.

[Anthrowhale]

Body Outside Body doesn't say the clones can't use maneuvers. Of course, it couldn't chronologically, so maybe you find that iffy.

The word 'loop' is confusing me. Perhaps you have this in mind:

If you enabled Shapechange[Chronotryryn] that would enable a true loop. BOB A uses a swift action to WRT on BOB B, then uses a swift action and a standard action to recover it while using arbitrarily a standard action and 2 move actions. BOB B then does the vice versa, then BOB A, BOB B, etc... This seems to work, although a DM might look at you funny when your initiative reaches -10.

The above implies that you only need one BOB + the primary, that you really want Shapechange on both of them, and that Warblade is better than Crusader because you can immediately recover.

[Elves]

With BOB, each new group of 4 clones can immediately use (Su) BOB as a standard action. White Raven Tactics is a swift action. That's a loop isn't it?

Of course, you can do both: 2 levels of Archmage, Supernatural Transformation (BOB) at 15th and (Shapechange) at 18th. Calling the clones Bobs is great.

(But yeah, guess it needs to be warblade.)

[ArtAndor]

Yeah, but it's third party and laughably OP. With third party stuff allowed I would instead just use a good homebrew PRC from here or Minmaxboards.



My Apologies. I completely forgot that it was 3rd party at the moment of writing my comment.

[Malphegor]

I'm not sure if persist is on there, but a spellscale might be handy to consider for this anyway- be a human with dragonblood-induced scaley skin, meditate each day on a dragon god, you get a limited-use metamagic for that day.

Races of the Dragon, aka 'Gwendolyn's writing the most awesome race stuff she can' since that seems to be her calling card in books she was involved in, haha.

[Anthrowhale]

With BOB, each new group of 4 clones can immediately use (Su) BOB as a standard action. White Raven Tactics is a swift action. That's a loop isn't it?

I see.

It's slightly unclear because of rounding issues. You are supposed to round down by default but up when rolling for hit points. Is BOB invoking the general rule or the special rule? There is no rolling going on even though it's about hit points so "no"? Or is there some text elsewhere?

[Mato]

Archmage's SLA ability plus Supernatural Transformation feat from SS gives an infinite shadow clone army.Supernatural transformation only works with innate SLAs, not the archmage's class features, and doesn't actually grant any extra uses so it's not infinite anyway.

The top methods for arcane metamagic reduction are incantatrixclass: pgtf, spell dancerclass: mof, undead batteryfeat: age of mortals, metamagic iteminfusion: eberron, and tainted casterclass: UA/HoH. You'll also find residual magic's lingering metamagicfeat: cm option highly applicable.

[Elves]

I see.

It's slightly unclear because of rounding issues. You are supposed to round down by default but up when rolling for hit points. Is BOB invoking the general rule or the special rule? There is no rolling going on even though it's about hit points so "no"? Or is there some text elsewhere?

I see what you mean. RAI it gets a little funky (if a 15th level Wu-Jen with 2 hit points left casts Body Outside Body, are the clones really supposed to appear unconscious?), but RAW, because of how broad that rounding statement is, you're right.

You can still chain under that ruling -- disabled lets you take one standard action or less. Of course they are all putting themselves into the negatives by taking actions, but they're still infinitely multiplying. Die Hard feat would re-enable WRT abuse. Giving the clones some ability to AOE heal could be useful, though not necessary for it to chain.

Admittedly, the power to summon an infinite army of bloody, mangled clones crawling around on the floor isn't as dramatic as the original.

--

More hopefully, if you could give the clones a way to give another clone a few temporary HP, or themselves temporary HP if the action also lets them use either BOB or WRT, that would let the chain progress just fine: a clone only needs 4HP to prevent reaching Generation Zero in the first place. [I'm assuming temp HP work because BOB specifically calls out "your hit point total at the time of casting".] Any ideas?

You have four clones per BOB cast and you only need one use of BOB between them for the chain to be infinite, so there are plenty of actions to spend on temporary HP granting.


Supernatural transformation only works with innate SLAs, not the archmage's class features, and doesn't actually grant any extra uses so it's not infinite anyway.

This catch however I'm skeptical of. Is the difference between "spell-like ability" and "innate spell-like ability" actually spelled out anywhere? For example, Innate Spell (PGtF) gives you a spell-like ability the same as with Archmage. The only thing I see is that Archmage/Innate Spell SLAs have XP costs whereas SLAs normally don't, but this is de facto a case of specific trumps general, not a designation of it as a different category of SLA.

"Infinite" due to chaining (though see above), not uses.

[Mato]

This catch however I'm skeptical of. Is the difference between "spell-like ability" and "innate spell-like ability" actually spelled out anywhere?Yes.

Affirming the consequent – the antecedent in an indicative conditional is claimed to be true because the consequent is true; if A, then B; B, therefore A.
"It's an SLA but different" is not a compelling argument that something is something else.

For example, MM297 says "Shapechanger: The creature possesses an innate ability to change shape or assume an alternate form." is a conformation that the shapechanger's ability to change shape or assume an alternate form is innate. But it cannot used to say a class feature that allows you to to permanently prepare an arcane spell to function as a spell-like ability is innate. DMG293 says "Rogues and monks cannot use evasion in medium or heavy armor. Some creatures with the evasion ability as an innate quality do not have this limitation." is a confirmation that it's possible to obtain evasion as an innate ability. But it cannot used to say a class feature of the same name is innate. PHB52 says "Characteristics: Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through careful training and study." which is conformation that ever since the start of 3.5 WotC has always fluffed sorcerers to gain powers from their bloodline heritage. But it cannot be used to claim the rules say their actual spells are innate. SS39 says "One of your innate spell-like abilities becomes a supernatural ability." which is conformation that it requires an SLA designated as innate. But your misunderstanding of what that might entail cannot be used as proof all SLAs are innate.

tl;dr: There is also this.

Can a warlock qualify for the Supernatural Transformation feat (SS 39) and change one of his invocations into a supernatural ability? No. The warlock’s spell-like abilities are learned (from class levels), not innate (that is, part of his racial traits).

Edit - By the way, this is also why it's not infinite. Aside from the fact that supernaturally cast spells still obey spellcasting rules & modifications in addition to the supernatural ability rules & exceptions. BOB produces a duplicate of the caster, not a duplicate of the caster's character sheet which is then used to create a new character. If the original only has one usage of BOB remaining after casting BOB to create a clone, than the duplicate comes into existence with only one usage of BOB remaining. It is a self closing loop and not infinite.

[Elves]

"It's an SLA but different" is not a compelling argument that something is something else.

Absent a ruling, since 3.5 has a specific trumps general rule, it is. But there is a ruling so thank you for providing that. Here it is in full:


Q: Can the feat Supernatural Transformation from Savage Species change the Warlock's Eldritch Blast and Invocations from Spell Like Abilities to Supernatural Abilities?

A: I chatted with the developers, and we're of the opinion that the term "innate" in the description of the Supernatural Transformation feat means "spell-like abilities you got because of your race, not because of any class choices you might have made." So that would rule out the warlock's invocations and eldritch blast.

That said, we're not 100% sure that the feat would necessarily be broken for the warlock. The warlock is a pretty feat-thirsty class, so there is a real cost in picking this up to make your eldritch blast SR-proof, when you've got an eldritch essence available that can do the same thing. But just to be on the cautious side, we're saying no. Rule Zero us on this one if you like.

(As an aside...we've discovered that the word "innate" is one of those flavor words that often carries a mechanical connotation, and it's not always meant to. So be careful in trying to extend this particular ruling to other "innate" things, because "innate" seems to mean different things in different contexts.)

So it is fairly clear cut, though it leaves room for interpretation in other instances of "innate" and emphasizes that their ruling on this is interpretive as well.


If the original only has one usage of BOB remaining after casting BOB to create a clone, than the duplicate comes into existence with only one usage of BOB remaining.

This relies on an analogy to the clause "your hit point total at the time of casting", but that clause about hit points may very well be independent. It's even separated by a paragraph. BOB says nothing about spell slots or daily usages. Seems like a case where it clearly comes down to ruling.



To summarize, if Supernatural Transformation is allowed, then the chronotyryn loop is still viable regardless of chaining. If ST is allowed but Mato's ruling about special ability charges is used, only 20 duplicates can be obtained from each BOB cast. Meanwhile, without Supernatural Transformation allowed, the build becomes solely about using clone-assisted free metamagic, strictly limited WRT, and Transcend Mortality>Emerald Immolation, and has no need to dip Archmage.

For the purposes of this NPC I may take the devs' invitation to rule zero ST, so still interested in the re:Anthrowhale HP issue, specifically about giving the clones ways to grant temp HP. Stone Power and the Vigor power both take a standard action and Rage from a barb dip precludes having 9ths.

[Mato]

Here it is in full:I know it agrees with me that you cannot use supernatural transformation on class features, such as the archmage's, but do I wouldn't count fourth hand information found on a forum. I'd stick to the versions people can reliably confirm as accurate.


This relies on an analogy to the clause "your hit point total at the time of casting"And the definition of "duplicate", which is what it creates. Also the fact that it says it shares your class features implies that each duplicate doesn't even get it's own usages either.

But sure, throw everything out because you found a forum reference that says you're creating house rules. I can at least say I'm very proud and happy about the awareness of your situation. Though I may offer you a better idea than trying to force rules to do something they don't: You can always just use ice assassin to create permanent clones and throw them all in in some kind of extradimensional space. They can even cast spells, and with enough XP/time they are technically limitless to.

[Elves]

I know it agrees with me that you cannot use supernatural transformation on class features, such as the archmage's, but do I wouldn't count fourth hand information found on a forum. I'd stick to the versions people can reliably confirm as accurate.

Here's the original transcript of Rich Baker's FAQ, you can wayback machine it: http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/975156

Again, it's just an FAQ, and he didn't write the feat in question, but it's the closest there is to an explicit ruling. I don't see a reason to think it's an inaccurate transcript.


Also the fact that it says it shares your class features implies that each duplicate doesn't even get it's own usages either.

It says class levels, but even if it said class features, ruling on the basis of that language that eg a paladin/wu jen's clones would all be drawing from the same pool of smite evil charges would be extremely dubious. The ruling you mentioned previously, that if the paladin/wu jen only had 1 of 2 smite evil charges remaining the clones would also only have 1 of 2 charges remaining is much more reasonable, though not explicitly stated nor especially implied.


As for this character I'm trying to build: the non Supernatural Transformation version that gets a modest 4 clones per BOB casting and uses them for free metamagic and a handful of WRTs is still fine and accomplishes more or less what the character is meant to do. And it's more balanced.

But since the Rich Baker ruling doesn't particularly gird itself in canonicity, I wouldn't feel unclean in running with the different ruling it invites. Plenty of the old TO builds are erected on even more tenuous ground.

[Elves]

Allowing Supernatural Transformation:

Found a way to finagle the temp HP! Minor Shapeshift reserve feat. Polymorph is on the Wu Jen spell list and it only requires having spells "available to cast", not casting them. Swift action activate, temp HP=HD. So clones activate Minor Shapeshift to give themselves temp HP, then use BOB, ensuring no Generation Zero.

This does rely on the ruling that:
"The duplicates you create each have one-quarter of your hit point total at the time of casting"
includes temporary HP.

[Silvercrys]

I don't think it needs to be (Su) anyway, Body Outside Body specifies that the clones cannot "cast spells" and activating a Spell-Like Ability is not the same thing as casting spell, whatever similarities they might have. It even goes on to tell you other things that are also like spells (use spell trigger and spell completion items) that they cannot do and omits Spell-Like Abilities.

-------------

Daily limits are limits, they aren't uses per day that are expended like spell slots. Rules Compendium page 118. By my reading, until the clone itself has used the ability, it still has two uses that day, because the answer to the question "how many times has this creature used this ability today?" is zero.

-------------

Regarding temp HP, I don't think that actually helps because temp HP is tracked and kept separately from actual HP; the rules for Temp HP even reference your current HP the same way Body Outside Body does.

So your best bet is to get an ability that can increase their Constitution score by 2 or more, like Rage, but Rage itself prevents you from using the Body Outside Body SLA... So you'll have to take a hit of two more caster levels, probably, to take a level of Barbarian and a level of Rage Mage to get Spell Rage. Even though, as I said, SLAs are not spells, Spell Rage appears to remove the restriction on using skills and abilities requiring patience or concentration, instead merely preventing you from using any "Dexterity-, Charisma-, or Intelligence-based skill checks".

The clone's turns, then, become:
Allow you to act if you have actions from a previous Clone's White Raven Tactics.

Rage, granting them an additional 20 HP.

Activate the Body Outside Body SLA and create 3 (or 4 if you somehow managed to keep CL 20) new clones with at least 5 HP each.

Use White Raven Tactics to set your initiative to their current initiative - 1.

Naturally there are all sorts of rulings a DM might use to disallow the loop, but I think it works. Ruling that Body Outside Body clones can't use SLAs and that Supernatural Transformation can't affect SLAs gained from class levels is probably fair. Ruling that creatures that are cloned/duplicated/etc. from another creature with x/time period abilities are counted as having used as many of those x/time period abilities as the original is probably fair, also.

You should probably be prepared for your PCs to try TO tricks if you actually show them this one, though. Heh.

And it sucks, but I don't think you can keep 9th level spells or even get 9th level maneuvers with this build.

Right now I have Wu Jen 6/Barbarian 1/Rage Mage 1/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Archmage 2 for 8th level spells as the build stub, and I think you can get an 8th level maneuver with Martial Study at level 18 with IL 16 at level 20. You do get 3rd level maneuvers (White Raven Tactics) from your first Warblade level this way, though.

I'm currently trying to save a caster level by finding an alternate way of boosting Con with a single class level since that will give you 9th level spells, not having any luck so far though.

Edit: Oh, right, forgot to mention that Crusader might make you randomly generate granted maneuvers for each clone which sounds like a nightmare. It doesn't actually interrupt the loop just makes it impossible to resolve the minutiae.

Edit 2: Changing race to Beasthide Shifter gives you an (Su) ability to get a +2 bonus to Con score... But it comes with a -2 Int penalty, heh. I'll keep looking but so far this is the only option that keeps 9th level spells I think. Build also only works if the BoB clones don't "copy" the raging/shifting state of the original.

[Elves]

Even better solution then: Divine Fervor feat from Dragon. "Once per day you can call upon your deity and gain a +2 bonus to any one ability score. The bonus lasts a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier (minimum 1 round)." Only prereq: "a patron deity". Seemingly a free action. Even better than the reserve feat since it doesn't use up a swift action, meaning every clone can WRT/BOB in the same round.

Alternately, the rhul (battlewine) drug from Lords of Darkness gives you +4 con, +4 str, and is nonmagical so it should be duplicated on your clones. The question is, what is the action for imbibing it? None is given in Lords of Darkness. It's a fluid so that would probably default to the potion rules, ie a standard action. Is there any way to drink a potion faster?

There's also a drug called Chif that lets you rage during 1d3 hours while you're on it. Could that be used to qualify for rage mage? Coke-rage Mage? I hope so because that would be hilarious.

Edit: Credit to this great resource (https://web.archive.org/web/20140919180627/www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=176.0) btw.

However, I'm not totally sure the temp HP don't work anyway. I couldn't find the language you were referring to in the RC.


As for whether the BOB clones can use SLAs, I was assuming not because "usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name" and the way SLAs are often described as "duplicating" spells. What do people think?

[Silvercrys]

Temp HP are on page 72 in the RC. It says "note the creature's current hit point total" and then later it refers to the creature's current hit point total separately from its total with temp HP a couple of times. Not a slam dunk, of course, feel free to interpret otherwise, that's just how I read it.

(Thanks for the link, by the way, sometimes just knowing
the name of an old thread like that (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176.0) holds power. :wink:

With the name from web archive I was able to find the live version, though it hasn't been updated in a while.)

Planar Touchstone for Catalogues of Enlightenment can give you the domain power of the Passion domain (Eberron Campaign Setting), which is like Rage, and Rage Mage just says "Rage ability" not "Rage class feature"... It's almost definitely not intended and is probably not strictly RAW without bending the meaning of "Rage" so that a cleric that can cast the Rage spell could also enter Rage Mage.

Yeah, Rhul ("Battle Wine") from Lords of Darkness works, it just makes you make a DC 16 Will Save or attack in melee, no rage restriction like the other stuff has so no cheesy using an item to enter Rage Mage. Gonna need some way of never failing the Will Save though otherwise you get the same problem as Crusader of having to roll for every clone you make. Could use Martial Stance at level 18 to get Aura of Perfect Order and then they'd all get to take 11 on the save...

As far as getting potions faster than a standard action, I found a masterwork (i.e. non-magical) potion belt in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting that holds ten potions and lets you drink one as a free action once per round, but that "only" gives you ten iterations after they drop to less than 4 HP since the clones made by each successive iteration after that have one less potion.

[Elves]

As far as getting potions faster than a standard action, I found a masterwork (i.e. non-magical) potion belt in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting that holds ten potions and lets you drink one as a free action once per round, but that "only" gives you ten iterations after they drop to less than 4 HP since the clones made by each successive iteration after that have one less potion.

I guess the only choice is to dress like Hennet then. No, seriously, it may not be perfect but it's a great find.

Ultimately, I think I'll go with Divine Fervor just because it's so perfect.

But I imagine a potion belt of battlewine is still worth having in case you want to split a persisted clone's two BOB uses over a period of time that the 1/day Divine Fervor use wouldn't cover.

(As far as the Will save, Moment of Perfect Mind would be the obvious answer.)


Would still love other people's input on BOB clones being able to use SLAs or not.

Also about whether Incantatrix's Cooperative Metamagic can apply to spells being cast from items.

[Anthrowhale]

Reading through carefully, as a DM, I'd probably rule that Supernatural Transformation does not apply to Archmage-based SLAs (not "innate"), that BoBs cannot use spell-like abilities ("Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell"), that BoBs can use supernatural abilities ("indistinguishable duplicates"), and that BoBs inherit uses as well as use/day limits ("indistinguishable duplicates").

This eliminates the possibility of drowning in BoBs but the pair of Chronotryrn Warblades trick works fine.

Shapechange[you] can enable you to cast Shapechange on a BoB via Shapechanging into a Symbiote (Fiend Folio) and attaching to a BoB. To cast Shapechange as a Symbiote, you can take Arcane Thesis[Shapechange], Silent Spell, and Still Spell. With Incantatrix, these can be made persistent, so with a couple rounds of buffing you have the ability to drop an action nova at will all day.

[Anthrowhale]

I guess the only choice is to dress like Hennet then. No, seriously, it may not be perfect but it's a great find.

Note that as an exception from "indistinguishable duplicates" all your magic items become mundane for the BoB.

[Elves]

Both the drug and the belt are nonmagical.

In the case of either step toward chaining being ruled eligible, do you see a problem with the Divine Fervor workaround of the HP issue?

Finally, what's your opinion on Cooperative Metamagic + spellcasting from items?

Thanks for your help.

[Silvercrys]

I was avoiding the obvious Moment of Perfect Mind since it seems somewhat likely that using it and then using Body Outside Body results in clones that don't have Moment of Perfect Mind readied anymore. :wink:

I suppose if you have feat slots left you could get around that by taking Sudden Recovery and making the loop more complicated, though. 40 HP gives you enough for two generations of clones, so generation N (the first one with not enough HP to make conscious BOB clones) uses White Raven Tactics, drinks the wine as a free action, gets 40 HP, uses BOB and then uses the maneuver to pass the Will save, then generation N+1 with ~10 HP uses Sudden Recovery to recover Moment of Perfect Mind, uses BOB to make clones with ~2 HP, then Generation N+3 can drink the second flask of wine and use White Raven Tactics again. So you technically get 21? generations out of each potion belt, but you "only" get actions from the odd numbered generations. Of course, we're talking an exponential number of clones here so that's still a huge number even without a true loop.

[Elves]

Just to add,

Reading through carefully, as a DM, I'd probably rule that Supernatural Transformation does not apply to Archmage-based SLAs (not "innate"), that BoBs cannot use spell-like abilities ("Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell"), that BoBs can use supernatural abilities ("indistinguishable duplicates"), and that BoBs inherit uses as well as use/day limits("indistinguishable duplicates").

Bolded is the only ruling I would challenge if I were your player. For one, if "indistinguishable" referred to mechanical aspects rather than superficial aspects (ie we looking at your stats cannot distinguish, versus someone in-world looking at you cannot distinguish) it would clearly be incorrect since they have 1/4 your HP and modified stats from lack of magic items. You could say that this is a micro example of a later specific modifying the previous general, but there is no exception phrasing. Seems more like indistinguishable here is a flavor word.

More to the point, there's Silvercrys's argument for the difference between spell slots and special abilities: since use limits for special abilities are defined by "how often it can be used", what you have is actually a single button which says "you can use this twice per day", not a list of charges that get ticked off, or a spell slot that is defined as filled vs expended. In this reading it's the button itself that gets transferred, not a list of charges.

For example, take a planetar:


Spell-Like Abilities
At will—continual flame, dispel magic, holy smite (DC 20), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration (DC 18), remove curse (DC 19), remove disease (DC 19), remove fear (DC 17), speak with dead (DC 19); 3/day—blade barrier (DC 22), flame strike (DC 21), power word stun, raise dead, waves of fatigue; 1/day—earthquake (DC 24), etc. Caster level 17th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

You have those spell-like abilities. Those are what you transfer to your clones.

Versus then the planetar's spell slots, which are in defined states that get transferred as such.

[Anthrowhale]

Both the drug and the belt are nonmagical.
Oh, good.


In the case of either step toward chaining being ruled eligible, do you see a problem with the Divine Fervor workaround of the HP issue?
It hits the use/day issue, but if you ignore that it seems to work? In fact, if you ignore the use/day issue, it seems like your BoBs get unbounded Con.


Finally, what's your opinion on Cooperative Metamagic + spellcasting from items?
Cooperative metamagic applies to "...to a spell being cast by a willing allied spellcaster."

For command word and use-activated spell items, I don't see any evidence that an "allied spellcaster" is casting the spell. For Wands, you have "A wand is ... imbued with the power to cast a specific spell." A wand is not an allied spellcaster, so it doesn't work. It's less explicit for a staff, but I'd probably go with no via the precedent for wands.

For scrolls, it looks like the answer may be "yes". Some quotes "...to cast the spell successfully..." "A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way." If it's cast and works exactly the same as a normal prepare and cast, plausibly Cooperative Metamagic does apply. You could argue the other way based on the scroll activation requiring less-than-normal casting time, but it seems like that's just an exception to "prepare and cast the normal way".



Bolded is the only ruling I would challenge if I were your player. For one, if "indistinguishable" referred to mechanical aspects rather than superficial aspects (ie we looking at your stats cannot distinguish, versus someone in-world looking at you cannot distinguish) it would clearly be incorrect since they have 1/4 your HP and modified stats from lack of magic items. You could say that this is a micro example of a later specific modifying the previous general, but there is no exception phrasing. Seems more like indistinguishable here is a flavor word.

"Indistiguishable" not a flavor word since it at least refers to appearances. More importantly, the operative word is 'duplicate' not 'indistinguishable'. By default, everything is duplicated, except as noted below in the spell description.


More to the point, there's Silvercrys's argument for the difference between spell slots and special abilities: since use limits for special abilities are defined by "how often it can be used", what you have is actually a single button which says "you can use this twice per day", not a list of charges that get ticked off, or a spell slot that is defined as filled vs expended. In this reading it's the button itself that gets transferred, not a list of charges.

I'd expect duplicate to (by default) mean that both the limit/day and the uses/day are copied. At least, that's how it would work if you used fork() (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_(system_call)).

[Elves]

The point is that there are no charges for special abilities that get carried over. Simply a condition that says “you can use this 2/day”. That condition is what you give to your clones. It’s not like you have two slots of the ability that get checked off as you use them — RAW there is only the frequency condition. To say that charges get carried over implies a form of “metadata” that is outside of RAW.

The example from my last post expresses this reading simply.



It hits the use/day issue, but if you ignore that it seems to work? In fact, if you ignore the use/day issue, it seems like your BoBs get unbounded Con.

The only clone generations who'd need to activate Divine Fervor due to HP risk would be ones that can't be persisted, due to coming from a (Su) or SLA - so they only last 1 minute, max 2 with the Extend SLA/Su feat. DF covers much of that. Potion belt of battlewine for a second, less infinite chain in cases when they want to save their second Su/SLA use for the last few rounds Divine Fervor wouldn't cover.

[Anthrowhale]

The point is that there are no charges for special abilities that get carried over. Simply a condition that says “you can use this 2/day”. That condition is what you give to your clones. It’s not like you have two slots of the ability that get checked off as you use them — RAW there is only the frequency condition. To say that charges get carried over implies a form of “metadata” that is outside of RAW.

The "metadata" is the RAW. In particular, there must be some change in state after the first use which allows an individual creature only 1 more use that day and then after the second use, which denies the creature further use that day. Not having a state change would imply that n/day abilities are effectively at-will. Furthermore this state change is by default a part of the creature since it is inseparably associated with a creature.

[Silvercrys]

I don't think I would challenge any of those interpretations as a player, but then, I wouldn't really bring this to another DM's table as a player, either, heh.

But I do feel compelled to defend my position as a DM who thinks the trick does work, RAW, even though I wouldn't allow it at my table unless the other players were similarly optimized.

So, here's all the evidence I could find, both for and against, BOB clones being able to use SLAs.

-------------

(1) Using a Spell-Like Ability is a different action from the "Cast a Spell" action in the combat chapter of the PHB. This means that "Cast a spell" is a defined game term and does not refer merely to any act of creating an effect that has the same effect as a spell.

Here is the SRD page for reference, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardCastaSpell) the rules for activating an SLA are a bit further down, under "Use special ability". (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#useSpecialAbility)

-------------

(2) Furthermore, if we were to treat activating an SLA as the same thing as casting a spell, we would either have to allow the Warlock to qualify for prestige classes that require the ability to cast X level spells or we would have to claim that there is a specific rule that prevents them from doing so even though it ought to be allowable.

According to page 72 of Complete Arcane, the reason Warlocks (and other creatures with SLAs) do not qualify for these classes is that knowing how to cast a spell of level X is fundamentally different from knowing how to activate an SLA of that level.

-------------

(3) One of the few times I've seen WotC claim that SLAs and casting a spell are close enough to the same is on page 71 of CAr, where they say that Sudden Metamagic feats work on SLAs because they have no slot adjustment and consequently imply that the reason Metamagic feats don't work on SLAs is because they have a slot adjustment, not because SLAs aren't actually spells.

-------------

(4) I'd like to address the "Usually an SLA works just like the spell of the same name" bit.

The direct quote from the SRD is: "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described." The Rules Compendium reference is identical.

From the following sentence, I think the context is pretty clear that this is not saying that using an SLA is the same as "casting" the spell of the same name. It's saying that if you have an SLA named Bless, it has the same effect as the spell named Bless unless the SLA has overriding text where it is described.

-------------

(5) There is also an (in my opinion) errant use of the word "cast" in the SRD, in the combat chapter linked above it says "The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise."

One might use this to conclude that, therefore, using an SLA is a kind of "casting" because it has a "casting time", something both (Su) and (Ex) abilities lack, but in virtually every other instance of an SLA the phrase "use a Spell-Like Ability" rather than "cast a Spell-Like Ability" is used.

That language is even partially amended in the RC, page 118 where it says "Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action..." but it is then replicated a few sentences later where it says "If the spell-like ability duplicates a spell that has a casting time of less than 1 standard action, the spell-like ability has that casting time."

I think it's apparent that the writers for the RC tried to make the distinction between spells and SLAs clearer and just didn't catch the latter casting time reference, but your mileage will vary.

-------------

Conclusion:

You could certainly use the Sudden Metamagic stuff from CAr page 71 and the casting time stuff from the SRD/Rules Compendium to make the case that using an SLA is similar enough to casting a spell that BOB clones shouldn't be permitted to use SLAs. I would accept such a ruling as a player even if I don't think it's necessarily correct because the build is extremely powerful even if you can't drown the world in clones of yourself, and, well... really I just wouldn't even bring this character to a table as a player unless it was meant to be a high op TO showcase and the DM agreed that it worked ahead of time.

But I do believe that the evidence points to the notion that using an SLA is a fundamentally different thing from the explicitly forbidden by BOB "cast spells", particularly because it also forbids the extremely similar to actually casting a spell "Use a spell trigger item" and "use a spell completion item" but does not explicitly mention SLAs.

I do agree that Supernatural Transformation probably does not apply to Archmage-gained SLAs, though.

-------------

As far as the use/day thing, it isn't a program and BOB isn't the same thing as fork(), but this bit is very much up to interpretation. It will work at some tables, like mine, and it will not work at others, ever, like Anthrowhales.

There is no RAW that directly states what "duplicate" means with respect to limited use abilities or even things like spell slots and readied maneuvers. At some tables, the DM will say that "duplicate" means it has all of your abilities and class features but has no prepared spells or readied maneuvers because it hasn't taken the actions required to have those things.

If a player tried to pull this trick at a table I knew wasn't prepared for it, I'd... well, I'd actually just pull them aside as soon as they left Wu Jen for Warblade and say "are you trying to assemble the Body Outside Body+White Raven Tactics combo? I think the trick works, but I'd rather you didn't because this game isn't for TO builds." And if they actually tried to do the trick anyway, I'd probably let them use it for the one encounter and then say "this is a rules change, BOB duplicates can no longer use SLAs in addition to their restriction on casting spells and using spell trigger or spell completion items."

-------------

I don't think they actually get stacking Con because they probably don't copy active effects and the boost from Divine Fervor is a temporary bonus. They ought to have 1/4 of the HP of the boosted generation, but the unboosted Con score of that generation. I think.

-------------

And very finally, regarding the Chronotryrn Double trick, the easiest way to pull that off is to switch Wu Jen for Wizard and make an Ice Assassin of yourself. It hates you, but it also obeys your every command and has all the same powers as you. And most importantly, you can share Shapechange with it because it has Share Spells. The experience cost is a bit of a bummer, but you can get around that by using a Thoughtbottle to reduce the cost to only 500 xp.

[Elves]

Thanks for the post. I think (1), (4), and (5) are valid.

(2) and (3) aren't relevant to the conversation, as they form a coherent picture: SLAs don't count as having spell levels, so they can't be counted as a certain level spell for prereqs or modified with spell slot increasing metamagic. That's neither here nor there to BOB.

However, regarding Supernatural Transformation, I can't help but mention the text on CArc71:

"spell-like abilities represent an innate magical talent that is part of a creature's essential nature..."

This is explicitly including warlock SLAs, ie, ones not acquired racially (further down the page, for example, "warlocks and other creatures with SLAs..."). It doesn't actually contradict the FAQ ruling on warlocks taking Supernatural Transformation, since Rich Baker was saying he thought the writer of the Supernatural Transformation feat meant "racial" by "innate", but it does make me question it, both in intent and whether that ruling really holds up by the books.

(This doesn't mean the "innate" in the text of Supernatural Transformation becomes meaningless. For example, suppose you have access to SLAs as a result of magic items -- those would clearly not count as "innate" and wouldn't qualify for the feat, while the SLAs Complete Arcane defines as "innate", which include those acquired from class levels, might.)


The "metadata" is the RAW. In particular, there must be some change in state after the first use...

There doesn’t have to be, because that’s an intuition based on real life physics/engineering which needn’t apply to the game rules (and note I mean the rules, not the gameworld itself; real-world intuition applied to the gameworld is more reasonable). The gamerules can just operate how they do, without a need for a mechanism, which is I guess one of the differences between a tabletop game and a computer game.

But more importantly, if there's to be a gremlin tracking usage charges, you might just as well have a gremlin who tracks it another way. The first isn't logically privileged.

The interpretation I was assuming when I started this thread is simple: you have a line in your statblock that says

Spell-Like Abilities
2/day—Body Outside Body

and that line gets exactly duplicated in each of your clones' statblocks, and it means exactly, literally what it says.

To me this seems like the simpler ruling. The RC wording "A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used" doesn't seem indicative either way, so at this point I'm still convinced it's a matter of ruling. So, it was sloppy wording to say I would dispute your ruling if I was a player at your table (of course I wouldn't try this combo in that case, either), but I would hold the door open about whether yours is really the most transparent interpretation.

(This is again in contrast to spell slots, which are discrete things that exist in discrete states such as "empty", "magic missile", or "expended", and would get transferred in those exact states.)

[Anthrowhale]

There doesn’t have to be, because that’s an intuition based on real life physics/engineering
I'd say "information theory" rather than physics/engineering.


The interpretation I was assuming when I started this thread is simple: you have a line in your statblock that says

Spell-Like Abilities
2/day—Body Outside Body

and that line gets exactly duplicated in each of your clones' statblocks, and it means exactly, literally what it says.

I think I understand where you're coming from now. You agree that the state limit/use has to be tracked, but not that the tracking is a part of the character. I don't know anywhere that this is addressed in the rules. It certainly does seem more natural to me for limit/use state to be part of the character.

[Elves]

You have the ability to use body outside body 2/day, hence, so does a perfect copy of you. It's as simple as that.

Re "Not having a state change would imply that n/day abilities are effectively at-will": the game isn't a computer program. It gives instructions, it doesn't need to carry them out.

[Elves]

Re Cooperative Metamagic applying to scrolls, unfortunately, "A spellcaster can’t use a metamagic feat to alter a spell being cast from a wand, scroll, or other device" (SRD).

---------------


Here's a final summary of this discussion:


The way the combo works depends on three questions the DM has to rule on. You can loop under all rulings, but under some you need the Supernatural Transformation feat and/or a belt of the Dread Emperor to do so.

1) Clones created by body outside body can’t cast spells, but can they use spell-like abilities? In the PHB and RC, casting a spell is listed as a different action than using a spell-like ability. Throughout the books, this distinction is reinforced by the fact that you "cast" a spell but "use" a spell-like ability.
Verdict: Almost certainly yes.

2) The Supernatural Transformation feat applies to one of your “innate” spell-like abilities. Does “innate” mean “racial”, or does it simply exclude SLAs you have access to through non-intrinsic means such as magic items?

Verdict: Ambiguous. In a non-official venue, a dev allegedly said it was intended to mean racial and not include invocations. But in Complete Arcane, the same book the feat is from, a warlock's invocations are referred to as "innate". This takes RAW precedence over the dev's alleged comment, but is it an exception, or a general indicator for the second reading?

3) How do daily uses of spell-like abilities work for duplicates created by body outside body?

One reading says: you have the ability to use body outside body twice a day, hence, so does a perfect copy of you. By contrast, spell slots exist in discrete states and get transferred as such.

Another reading analogizes it to usage charges: if you only have one “charge” of an SLA remaining, you only hand one charge to your copies.

Verdict: I think the frequency language indicates the first reading, Anthrowhale disagrees.

----------


Here's how the build varies based on those rulings:

If 1) is “yes” and 3) uses my interpretation, the clone loop works, and there’s no need to take Supernatural Transformation; archmage’s SLA suffices.

If 1) is “no” but 2) is ruled in the second way, and 3) uses my interpretation, the loop works if you take Supernatural Transformation.

If 1) is answered “no” and 2) is answered “racial” and 3) uses my interpretation, you can still create a clone chaining loop with a belt of the Dread Emperor (BoVD, 120k).

If 3) is answered with the second interpretation, each clone you create with a body outside body supernatural or spell-like ability only has 1 daily use of that ability left, and each clone they create has 0, so each (Su) or SLA based instance of the spell caps at 20 duplicates, and each slot or scroll based use caps at 52. A finite chain can be created with your own slots and scrolls of body outside body. A belt of the Dread Emperor (BoVD, 120k) is required to loop.


The downside of the belt of the Dread Emperor is that it exposes you to infinite damage when your clones are destroyed; fortunately JPM's emerald immolation and other tricks can be used to avoid this.

When looping, you need to prevent a generation of clones from eventually appearing with 0 HP. We've found 3 ways to do this. The Divine Fervor feat allows infinite chaining but only works for a few rounds per day per clone; however, for clones created through a spell-like or su ability, who couldn't be Persisted anyway, this isn't a big loss. Rhul (battlewine) placed in a potion belt works, but isn't infinite, since only ten bottles fit in the belt. Finally, the Minor Shapeshift reserve feat can be used as often as needed, but unlike Divine Fervor, it takes a swift action to use, and relies on how the DM rules on temporary hit points transferring to body outside body clones. Divine Fervor is therefore probably the most airtight solution.

[Elves]

Ahah!
Devious solution to loop even under the most unfavorable rulings. Use a Belt of the Dread Emperor (BoVD p114, 120k gp) on your clones (which are explicitly willing to even commit suicide) to get infinite recalled spell slots. Re-christen it your "Belt of Noble Sacrifice". HP aren't a problem; if your hp are below 160, which is the minimum needed for your duplicates to have > the 49HP required to use the Belt on a 7th level slot without them dying, you can just use a temporary Con booster on yourself like battlewine, bear's endurance or Divine Fervor.

Or you can fuel the Belt with summoned monsters instead of duplicates, also refilling those slots with the Belt.


Alternately, it may be that you could follow in Priya's footsteps and use Absorption spam, fueled by free metamagic from clone-assisted Cooperative Metamagic and, as always, bonus actions from WRT, but the margin on bonus actions will be much thinner.


One practical issue with chaining is that WRT only has a 10ft range and your clones can only move so far out of each others' way, so when it gets crowded you want to dimension door or greater teleport away (again this slot will be replenished with the Belt), bringing only a single clone with WRT unexpended along with you, and start the cycle up again in a new place until the entire world is covered with your copies in a single turn.

[Silvercrys]

Could fix that with some way of dispelling, dismissing, or killing your clones between recasts and healing off the 10 damage with fast healing or Minor Shapeshift....

Actually. You've given me an idea.

Instead of getting BOB as a spell-like, you need Disintegrate.

You also need (49x4 = 196) HP and DR 10/something Body Outside Body doesn't bypass or Fast Healing 10. Easiest way to get the HP is to have more than that and poke yourself with a Tiny Shuriken until you're at the correct HP, which shouldn't be too hard I guess. The easiest way to do the other bit is actually to use my interpretation of temp HP not counting as current HP for BOB and take Minor Shapeshift.

You get a Belt of the Dread Emperor and put it on with one pair of empty manacles (I mean, you can have more for effect, but you only need one). Cast Body Outside Body and get 3 (or 4) clones, placing them 10 feet (i.e. a 5 ft. step) away from you (Body Outside Body's range is 10 feet exactly). Each clone has exactly 49 HP. End your turn.

Each clone delays to a new initiative count. Clone 1 takes a 5-ft step towards you, initiates White Raven Tactics targeting you as a swift action, and uses its move action attaching itself to the Belt of the Dread Emperor. It then uses your Disintegrate SLA targeting an opponent.

On your new turn, you drain the clone to recover your BOB spellslot, putting it at 0 HP. Use your swift action to activate the Minor Shapeshift reserve feat if you need to, then use your move action to give your opponents time to regret their life choices. Cast any 7th level spell (Disintegrate is good, right??) and end your turn.

Clone 2's turn, it Disintegrates the clone you put at 0, turning it to dust, uses WRT on you, then takes a 5 ft step towards you and puts the manacles on itself.

You repeat your Disintegrate turn.

When you get to your last clone, you cast Body Outside Body again instead of Disintegrate and do it again.

Congrats, we have obtained arbitrarily large Disintegrate (or 7th level spell of choice) spells in one round. They even clean up after themselves rather than stacking up like the regular BOB trick.

[Elves]

Could fix that with some way of dispelling, dismissing, or killing your clones between recasts and healing off the 10 damage with fast healing or Minor Shapeshift....

Not a problem. 160/4=40, -49 equals -9, so they don't die till the end of the round. At the end of your last WRT turn (which never comes, anyway) you just use Emerald Immolation. Hence, pre-injuring yourself down to between 160-163 HP would be ideal. Disintegrate SLA would be another way to use their standard action besides Cooperative Metamagic if SLAs are ruled as usable, but the point of the Belt version of this combo is that it works even if all the least favorable rulings are used.


You also need (49x4 = 196) HP

As mentioned, you actually only need 160 HP because their negative HP still count. At 20th level, with average HP rolls, 20 Con alone will get you 166hp (35 (JPM10) + 6.5 (wbld1) + 25 (casters10, 1st maxhp)).

[Silvercrys]

Hmm. I'm reading the Belt as killing them and fizzling the spell if draining them would put them at less than 0 HP because their HP isn't high enough to power the spell (without going negative). Your reading is probably fine, though, the only real difference is you can have slightly lower HP to start.

[Elves]

You're right though that the major weakness of this build is how having infinite clones out exposes you to infinite damage, whereas in the non-Belt versions of the build you only stand to suffer damage from the four clones who start the chain.

Emerald Immolation only protects you for 1d6 rounds which isn't long enough for your clones to do much except kill a bunch of people, and more problematically, it doesn't give THEM time to all Emerald Immolation themselves, reappear, and die again. So you do need to set up a surefire way to get brought back after clones dying inevitably kills you. Stay dead for 24 hours, let your infinite army of persisted duplicates wreak their havoc, get resurrected the next day and do it all again.

[Anthrowhale]

The belt of the dread emperor plausibly works although the infinite damage vulnerability is rough.

A Wu Jen lacks Absorption, so tricks with Absorption don't work. At that point it might be easier to be a Wizard and get access to BoB.

[Elves]

...although the infinite damage vulnerability is rough.

Yes, a way to circumvent that problem would be welcome, although IMO it's not as big of a problem as it first appears: in an arena situation where death counts as a loss, and where infinite actions and infinite spell slots are for some reason not sufficient to gank your opponent, you just use Emerald Immolation on yourself at the end of your turn and then have all the clones kill themselves the round before you reappear, at which point you can still do one more round of infinite clone-spawning. (Immediate actions that can disrupt your chain are the big weakness in this context.)

Meanwhile, in an open world situation, staying dead for 24 hours or until the clones all die and then having yourself resurrected isn't a real problem for a 20th level character, especially since at the theoretical end of your turn you can go to some safe extraplanar location to die in.

[Silvercrys]

If we literally just need Absorption, the gold standard is Wyrm Wizard 2 (Dragon Magic). You can use the same method to get Body Outside Body on a Wizard but I think we like Wu Jen for flavor, not just Body Outside Body shenanigans.

Edit: as far as cheating your own death, if you're using an interpretation of the belt that doesn't require them to end at exactly zero (or if you agree with me that it doesn't affect your current HP) you can just use Minor Shapeshift to get 20 new temp HP each turn you take with WRT because BOB only deals 10 damage to you when a clone dies. You just have to make sure not more than two die before you get another turn from a WRT to do Minor Shapeshift again, so you could even (theoretically) recover maneuvers or cast a quickened spell in between Minor Shapeshift uses if you needed to.

[Elves]

Wyrm Wizard 2's lost CL means JPM5 instead of JPM10, so in that case, better to use wizard and use Wyrm Wizard to research BOB, since JPM5 can't take advantage of the Transcend Immortality trick. I agree, wu jen flavor is nice though.

The Absorption route has much thinner margins of action advantage, though Cooperative Metamagic giving you free Maximized Twinned Absorption is certainly nice. (Each maximized twinned absorption costs 9 spell levels and gets you (avg) 18.5 spell levels, so it gets 9.5 spell levels net per cast on average, but you lose WRT actions from having to cast spells to absorb, possibly via a summoned monster using SLAs on you, etc.) I think it's less elegant. However, it does have the advantage of not relying on a specific item.

(It's also worth noting that despite its sinister name, the belt of the dread emperor is not noted as an evil item, nor are evil spells involved in its creation.)

[Elves]

Thinking back on this thread:

I agree with Silvercrys's argument for BOB clones being able to use SLAs. Both the PHB/SRD and RC page 8 list using a spell-like ability as a different action than casting a spell. Their verb is consistently different -- "cast" vs. "use". And Rules Compendium's text on spell-like abilities removed the phrase from the PHB, "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell".


A last wrinkle is the bizarre way the archmage's SLA ability is worded:


An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day.

I think the language favors each BOB clone being subject to an independent daily frequency limit for SLAs -- I read them as a frequency condition that gets literally carried over from your statblock to your copy's, unlike a spell slot which gets transferred in a discrete state (open/prepared/expended). But if this SLA is IN a spell slot, that might be different? Or not? Who knows. It's bizarre wording and likely is best ignored.

Last cute addition to the build: As per TOB page 39, Selecting Martial Maneuvers, “your [initiator level] determines the highest level of maneuver you can select,” not use or initiate. Hence, if you use Anthrowhale's Tainted trick to acquire a high initiator level, take a warblade level and learn high level maneuvers, then after you drain away those Tainted levels you'll retain the ability to use those maneuvers despite a lower IL.