Most Helpful Character

[samuraijaques]

Hey guys,

Got a fun build I've been toying around with that my girlfriend is playing in an upcoming game. She's relatively new to Dnd and wanted to play something that could support the party and not have a lot of pressure put on her. We're starting at 5 so multiclassing is going to be a lot less of a drag. I had a couple thoughts on how to go about it but landed on lightfoot halfling mastermind rogue 4/life cleric (maybe a different cleric?) 1/college of lore bard X. The idea is to stack as many modifiers to everyone else's rolls as possible.

At 4th level we take the ritual caster feat for a familiar to give the help action and the ability to do some out of combat support rituals. At 9th level we take bountiful luck. 9th level is when things get really really good.

At 9th level she will be able to give the help action up to 3 times a turn, add a d4 to everyone's attacks and saves with bless, hand out d6 bardic inspiration dice, and let everyone re roll 1's. Out of combat she has access to guidance, help and bardic inspiration. She also has better than average healing, 10 skill proficiencies and 4 different skills with expertise.

So her in combat stuff wont be anything to write home about but that's honestly not what the build is about.

Notable exclusions:
Sorcerer - Twinning greater invisibility is great but I will be playing a sorcerer so having a second one seems redundant.
Divination Wizard (for portent) - Considered it but I think the cleric dip is less resource intensive and bless and guidance are more reliable and almost as effective. Plus we already have a wizard.

I'm really looking for input on this build. It seems strong to me but maybe i'm missing something.

My biggest question is what cleric domain do I take? Knowledge seems strong for a total of 6 skills with expertise as well as 12 skill proficiencies. Life has some powerful healing support as well as 2 useful spells though the spells that really benefit from life cleric's improved healing are on other classes spell lists and I wouldn't want to waste the magical secrets. Order would be pretty good as well, providing tactical movement for allies.

Thoughts?

[8wGremlin]

I'd actually suggest a simpler solution. (once they get the hang of this, then see if she wants to diversify... what you have is excellent, but build up to it)


Bard, lore 5th level, (one more level and she gets Magical secrets.)

Has Cure wounds/Healing word <- for your healing needs
Can use Cutting words <- for helping in combat.
Has Bardic inspiration <- for helping combat etc.
Can use the Help action


Perhaps take at level 4 (or 2 if VHuman)

Magic Initiate: Druid for Guidance, Druidcraft and Goodberry.
Ritual caster (wizard) for utility spells, such as fine familiar, alarm, leomund's tiny hut, etc..
Moderately armoured: breastplate and shield. (keep you alive longer)


For the spell secrets at level 6,

Find Steed, you can share your 'self' spells with it
Aura of Vitality (you and your mount can now heal!)
Spirit guardians (you and your mount can now have control and damaging aura)



Simple effective, not too many moving parts, not hard to pick up the way the class and system are meant to work, and it's a great team-player character.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Hey guys,

Got a fun build I've been toying around with that my girlfriend is playing in an upcoming game. She's relatively new to Dnd and wanted to play something that could support the party and not have a lot of pressure put on her. We're starting at 5 so multiclassing is going to be a lot less of a drag. I had a couple thoughts on how to go about it but landed on lightfoot halfling mastermind rogue 4/life cleric (maybe a different cleric?) 1/college of lore bard X. The idea is to stack as many modifiers to everyone else's rolls as possible.

At 4th level we take the ritual caster feat for a familiar to give the help action and the ability to do some out of combat support rituals. At 9th level we take bountiful luck. 9th level is when things get really really good.

At 9th level she will be able to give the help action up to 3 times a turn, add a d4 to everyone's attacks and saves with bless, hand out d6 bardic inspiration dice, and let everyone re roll 1's. Out of combat she has access to guidance, help and bardic inspiration. She also has better than average healing, 10 skill proficiencies and 4 different skills with expertise.

So her in combat stuff wont be anything to write home about but that's honestly not what the build is about.

Notable exclusions:
Sorcerer - Twinning greater invisibility is great but I will be playing a sorcerer so having a second one seems redundant.
Divination Wizard (for portent) - Considered it but I think the cleric dip is less resource intensive and bless and guidance are more reliable and almost as effective. Plus we already have a wizard.

I'm really looking for input on this build. It seems strong to me but maybe i'm missing something.

My biggest question is what cleric domain do I take? Knowledge seems strong for a total of 6 skills with expertise as well as 12 skill proficiencies. Life has some powerful healing support as well as 2 useful spells though the spells that really benefit from life cleric's improved healing are on other classes spell lists and I wouldn't want to waste the magical secrets. Order would be pretty good as well, providing tactical movement for allies.

Thoughts?

Rogue/Cleric or Bard/Cleric would work okay, but I strongly recommend against combining Rogue and Bard. We had a multi-class Rogue/Bard in our campaign a few months back, and figuring out what to do with his bonus action was a constant struggle. He wanted to use Cunning Action every turn, but he also wanted to use Bardic Inspiration (of course) every turn. It was agonizing for him, and frustrating for the rest of us waiting for him to make up his mind.

Maybe not the best situation for a new player to be in.

Multiclassing either Rogue/Cleric or Bard/Cleric seems easier, because the Cleric (IIRC) doesn't have a Bonus Action based class feature that they'll want to use every round. My best advice for a relatively new player, though, would be to stick with a single classed character.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I'd actually suggest a simpler solution. (once they get the hang of this, then see if she wants to diversify... what you have is excellent, but build up to it)


Bard, lore 5th level, (one more level and she gets Magical secrets.)

Has Cure wounds/Healing word <- for your healing needs
Can use Cutting words <- for helping in combat.
Has Bardic inspiration <- for helping combat etc.
Can use the Help action


Perhaps take at level 4 (or 2 if VHuman)

Magic Initiate: Druid for Guidance, Druidcraft and Goodberry.
Ritual caster (wizard) for utility spells, such as fine familiar, alarm, leomund's tiny hut, etc..
Moderately armoured: breastplate and shield. (keep you alive longer)


For the spell secrets at level 6,

Find Steed, you can share your 'self' spells with it
Aura of Vitality (you and your mount can now heal!)
Spirit guardians (you and your mount can now have control and damaging aura)



Simple effective, not too many moving parts, not hard to pick up the way the class and system are meant to work, and it's a great team-player character.
Well, as everything I wanted to write is here I will add something else.


Sorcerer have so little spell known that playing 2 Sorcerers will probably be different.

[samuraijaques]

I'd actually suggest a simpler solution. (once they get the hang of this, then see if she wants to diversify... what you have is excellent, but build up to it)


Bard, lore 5th level, (one more level and she gets Magical secrets.)

Has Cure wounds/Healing word <- for your healing needs
Can use Cutting words <- for helping in combat.
Has Bardic inspiration <- for helping combat etc.
Can use the Help action


Perhaps take at level 4 (or 2 if VHuman)

Magic Initiate: Druid for Guidance, Druidcraft and Goodberry.
Ritual caster (wizard) for utility spells, such as fine familiar, alarm, leomund's tiny hut, etc..
Moderately armoured: breastplate and shield. (keep you alive longer)


For the spell secrets at level 6,

Find Steed, you can share your 'self' spells with it
Aura of Vitality (you and your mount can now heal!)
Spirit guardians (you and your mount can now have control and damaging aura)



Simple effective, not too many moving parts, not hard to pick up the way the class and system are meant to work, and it's a great team-player character.
She's not going to have a problem with the mechanics of the build we have been looking at. She's been playing a moon druid and almost nothing is as complicated to play as that. Plus we already went through it all and she's on board. So, given that the difficulty is not a problem and eventually she'd be taking the rogue and cleric levels anyway why not take them at first level for the better skill proficiencies? Additionally, the bard aspect of it seems the weaker of the dice manipulation classes. They have so few bardic inspiration dice that they could never compete with bless and multiple help actions.


Rogue/Cleric or Bard/Cleric would work okay, but I strongly recommend against combining Rogue and Bard. We had a multi-class Rogue/Bard in our campaign a few months back, and figuring out what to do with his bonus action was a constant struggle. He wanted to use Cunning Action every turn, but he also wanted to use Bardic Inspiration (of course) every turn. It was agonizing for him, and frustrating for the rest of us waiting for him to make up his mind.

Maybe not the best situation for a new player to be in.

Multiclassing either Rogue/Cleric or Bard/Cleric seems easier, because the Cleric (IIRC) doesn't have a Bonus Action based class feature that they'll want to use every round. My best advice for a relatively new player, though, would be to stick with a single classed character.
Again, not so new that this is a problem. I wouldn't be suggesting something like this for a brand new player. But if the only concern is too many options I'd consider that a win.


Well, as everything I wanted to write is here I will add something else.


Sorcerer have so little spell known that playing 2 Sorcerers will probably be different.
Still, we'd have 2 sorcerers, a wizard and a monk. The 2nd sorcerer slot seems better filled by someone with a little more skill.

So yeah, definitely don't worry about the difficulty of the class lads. I'm mostly just concerned if there's more she could be doing or anything I missed.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

She's not going to have a problem with the mechanics of the build we have been looking at. She's been playing a moon druid and almost nothing is as complicated to play as that. Plus we already went through it all and she's on board. So, given that the difficulty is not a problem and eventually she'd be taking the rogue and cleric levels anyway why not take them at first level for the better skill proficiencies? Additionally, the bard aspect of it seems the weaker of the dice manipulation classes. They have so few bardic inspiration dice that they could never compete with bless and multiple help actions.


Again, not so new that this is a problem. I wouldn't be suggesting something like this for a brand new player. But if the only concern is too many options I'd consider that a win.


Still, we'd have 2 sorcerers, a wizard and a monk. The 2nd sorcerer slot seems better filled by someone with a little more skill.

So yeah, definitely don't worry about the difficulty of the class lads. I'm mostly just concerned if there's more she could be doing or anything I missed.

The biggest problem with builds like that is not "not having enough to do" the problem is having to much to do.

[KillingTime]

Lore Bard does all the things 5 levels faster.
Just go Lore Bard.

[CTurbo]

I think a mix of at least 5 or 6 levels of Lore Bard and then mostly Divine Soul Sorcerer would be an amazing "helpful" character.

You REALLY want 5 levels of Bard for short rest Inspiration dice. Divine Souls alone are some of the best support characters IMO.

I could see maybe sneaking in a single Cleric level for armor and even more spells and cantrips, but I don't think it's necessary.

[Bjarkmundur]

I know this isn't really contributing all that much, but my girlfriend had the exact same character creation goals as you have been given... Then she found this (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_fO9drMhlUealJLdFBXTHp2OG8/view). I've never seen her as excited to play a character ^^

Yes, it's a princess... that's also a warlord.

[KillingTime]

You REALLY want 5 levels of Bard for short rest Inspiration dice.

At which point you have absolutely zero excuse not to go to level 6 for magical secrets - widely regarded as one of the most powerful spellcasting features in the game.

[Bigmouth]

Not much of a builder myself, but I do have a couple questions.
Level 4 in Mastermind, that's 3 levels just to get the Help as a bonus action then 1 more to get the Feat?

Level 4 MM w/ Life Cleric: 4 skills (2 w/ expertise), 2 dice backstab, Master of Intrigue, 3 cantrips, Spell slots 2
Level 4 Lore Bard w/life cleric: 6 skills (2 w/ exp), Bardic Inspiration, Jack of all trades, Cutting Words 6 cantrips, 7 spells 4,3,2 spell slots w/ cleric

So 2 dice backstab, MoI, and MoT. vs 2 more skills, Bardic Inspiration, JoaT, Cutting Words, and 3 cantrips 7 spells, and 2/3/2 more spells slots?

If you were just wanting to run around and use nothing but the two help actions while going for backstabs and had no interest in spells, I suppose there could be a case for MM build. But you obviously are wanting to cast. Your build includes cleric and the progression after 5th is all Lore Bard
You mention bless specifically, so lets compare: In the MM/cleric build you get 2 casts of bless. In the Bard/cleric build You get 9 casts, and 3 of those would get 2 targets, 2 would get 3 targets. (effectively 16 bless vs 2)
Cure Wounds (Not specifically mentioned, but kind of assumed with Life Cleric(assuming 16 CHA) MM4/C1: 2 casts for 2d8+6+4+2 Average 21 HP Bard4/C1 build: 9 casts for 16D8+27+18+16 Average 133 HP
With one more level in bard you'll be getting those 3 inspirations back every short rest and they transform to D8s.

If the heavy armor and bonus to healing sounds great, I'd stick with the life cleric. If not, I think I personally would go with Arcane domain. It gives you yet another skill in your quest to "catch em all", but for me I like getting identify magic, magic missile and two wizard cantrips. Booming blade would be good for your build, putting damage back into your melee attacks plus a little bit of control.

[stoutstien]

My personal favorite helpful build is a glamour bard/ order domain cleric. Every action you take allows your party more opportunities and it players very straight forward.

[samuraijaques]

Okay. A lot of good points here. And the whole help action optimization may have been overly ambitious. So looking at it now I'm leaning towards lore bard with a dip in cleric. I can still get bountiful luck and a familiar and with more bardic inspiration she'll have lots of ways to help people's rolls.

Aight. So lore bard and a level of cleric. Order domain seems like the best choice.

Thanks for all the help.

[Reevh]

My first impression is that if she's relatively new to D&D and doesn't want pressure, a spellcaster (especially a bard who can pick from any list) is a lot to take in. Maybe it would be better to play a paladin that doesn't have to worry as much about its spell list, and provides a lot of passive benefits to the party as well as spot healing, while mostly hitting bad guys with a sword.

[8wGremlin]

Okay. A lot of good points here. And the whole help action optimization may have been overly ambitious. So looking at it now I'm leaning towards lore bard with a dip in cleric. I can still get bountiful luck and a familiar and with more bardic inspiration she'll have lots of ways to help people's rolls.

Aight. So lore bard and a level of cleric. Order domain seems like the best choice.

Thanks for all the help.

Now if you allow Unearthed Arcana this is fun.

The spell Puppet (from the starter spells UA https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Starter-Spells.pdf )


1st-level enchantment (bard, wizard spell)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous
Your gesture forces one humanoid you can see within range to make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target must move up to its speed in a direction you choose. In addition, you can cause the target to drop whatever it is holding. This spell has no effect on a humanoid that is immune to being charmed.

if you cast it on your own team, and they purposely fail their save, you can move them their move, and with Order Cleric get them to attack. it is very effective on rogues!

[samuraijaques]

My first impression is that if she's relatively new to D&D and doesn't want pressure, a spellcaster (especially a bard who can pick from any list) is a lot to take in. Maybe it would be better to play a paladin that doesn't have to worry as much about its spell list, and provides a lot of passive benefits to the party as well as spot healing, while mostly hitting bad guys with a sword.

She's been playing a moon druid and ended up with like 4 items with spells and charges to keep track of. She's been doing great. The complication part isn't an issue. What I meant by pressure is she doesn't want to feel like the game hinges on her. She just wants to help people as best as she can so it's not her fault when **** goes sideways :P.

[Reevh]

She's been playing a moon druid and ended up with like 4 items with spells and charges to keep track of. She's been doing great. The complication part isn't an issue. What I meant by pressure is she doesn't want to feel like the game hinges on her. She just wants to help people as best as she can so it's not her fault when **** goes sideways :P.

Gotcha, that's different then, and it looks like she's got a lot of great options.

[Bjarkmundur]

My first impression is that if she's relatively new to D&D and doesn't want pressure, a spellcaster (especially a bard who can pick from any list) is a lot to take in. Maybe it would be better to play a paladin that doesn't have to worry as much about its spell list, and provides a lot of passive benefits to the party as well as spot healing, while mostly hitting bad guys with a sword.

This seems very reasonable. Then there's also the Healer Feat Rogue, which feels the same but allows for the flavor on the other side of the coin.
Simplicity is key, and trying to give a player what he wants and not he says he wants. Like, how many times has a player asked for aragon and looked at the ranger, when what they really want is a fighter subclass and herbalism tools :/
Newcomers don't speak in mechanics yet, they simply do the best to communicate the feeling they are looking for.

[d20familiar]

Grave Cleric has particularly helpful and party-friendly ability at level 6 that meshes well with that halfling racial feat vibe.

So a MM Rogue 3-4 / Cleric 6+ may also be a way to go.

[KorvinStarmast]

She's a support Character
She is new to D&D
5th level

Choice 1: Life cleric. Built to be a support from the ground up, with a few nice attacking bits like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians. She gets decent AC. Turn Undead can now and again completely change a battle.

Choice 2: Pure Lore Bard as described above. Less AC but a few more nice tools like bardic inspiration.

Suggestion: do not multiclass. This is a new player.