OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[D.One]

Wow, Hel is really wasting away...

[Skull the Troll]

New comic is up.

Nice one! I love Hel!

[Deuce]

Someone gave away a few too many souls in her gambit.

[JT]

Hel is definitely suffering from malnutrtion.
Almost feel sorry for Her... She definitely got tricked (should have expected it, but still).

[i6uuaq]

Serious grudge going on there... wonder how many worlds that will last for.

[Kranerian]

Oof, she's not looking well. I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

[JustinKase]

Sounded like Loki was trying to give some genuinely good advice - while Hel is of course willing to push herself to destruction to avoid seeing the truth of the matter.

[Peelee]

Is Loki sad because he knows there's a way to keep the world going forever, and thus Hel will never recover? Or is it just being yelled at by his kid?

[The MunchKING]

Oof, she's not looking well. I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

From what I understand it's if they start yanking threads of reality. SO it depends on whether the Gods can allow it to play out on the mortal plane or start directly intervening.

[Reboot]

Well, at least she's not planning on throwing away what she still has for now?

[Given what Thor said about TDO, would she even survive the interregnum without the mass influx of dwarven souls?]

[Rjaye]

The dwarven vampire story arc is turning into my favourite.

[The MunchKING]

Sounded like Loki was trying to give some genuinely good advice - while Hel is of course willing to push herself to destruction to avoid seeing the truth of the matter.

Eh... I mean it kind of depends on how much anti-vampire upgrades the Council of the Clans can actually do before the reconvene. If those domes were rare artifact magic from some forgotten Golden age that can't be easily duplicated, then upping the anti vampire factor may not be that plausible before they have to make a new vote.


Is Loki sad because he knows there's a way to keep the world going forever, and thus Hel will never recover? Or is it just being yelled at by his kid?

Possibly it's sad-dad that his kid would hate him THIS much.

[The MunchKING]

[Given what Thor said about TDO, would she even survive the interregnum without the mass influx of dwarven souls?]

She looks like she's having trouble surviving NOW, WITH the souls she's getting. If she wasn't such a major player in the Pantheon, she might have already died by now even WITH the bet going.

[drazen]

Well, at least she's not planning on throwing away what she still has for now?

[Given what Thor said about TDO, would she even survive the interregnum without the mass influx of dwarven souls?]

I was wondering the same thing. Hel's not looking good now. She'd barely have enough to hold on, if at all. And all the other gods are on to her and would probably establish rules for the new world to prevent her from trying anything like this or ever getting a chance to try to usurp power again.

[Fyraltari]

Man, there’s not much sadder than someone wishing death on a parent. The Lokissons are a screwed-up family. :smallfrown:


Oof, she's not looking well. I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

It could but they could undo it immediately as well, Thor said that one-essence things are just as ethereals as Wizard constructs.

[Schroeswald]

Daaaaaaaamn, she is wasting away, she might not survive the story at this pace.

[MartectX]

I'll be honest Hel was frightening me in her madness... :smalleek:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is Loki sad because he knows there's a way to keep the world going forever, and thus Hel will never recover? Or is it just being yelled at by his kid?

I think he is sad because he does genuinely care for her, and is coming to realise his little lesson may have had unintended results?

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Possibly it's sad-dad that his kid would hate him THIS much.

That's what I meant by the latter. I may have understated the case...

[caltino]

Can someone link to the wager she is talking about? What is she trying to be free from? Why is a goddess of death so starved, even with the dwarf honor rules?

[The MunchKING]

Can someone link to the wager she is talking about? What is she trying to be free from? Why is a goddess of death so starved, even with the dwarf honor rules?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html

And I am surprised by how many posts I'm getting on the first page. Usually everyone pushed it back to the third or fourth before I even have a chance to post. :smallbiggrin:

[HandofShadows]

A god with the emotional maturity of a child. You would think after thousands and thousands of years she might grow up a little or learn something. Guess she is jus like some real world people I know. :smallfrown:

[GM_3826]

She's right, you know.

[NNescio]

Is Loki sad because he knows there's a way to keep the world going forever, and thus Hel will never recover? Or is it just being yelled at by his kid?

"I wanted to help my kid in my own special way, but I ended up screwing her future. Now she hates me and wishes me dead."

Something like that?

[Dion]

Is Loki sad because he knows there's a way to keep the world going forever, and thus Hel will never recover? Or is it just being yelled at by his kid?

Loki is sad because he knows Hel is right. Following procedural rules really won’t save the world.

She’s given him something to think about.

[Mith]

Can someone link to the wager she is talking about? What is she trying to be free from? Why is a goddess of death so starved, even with the dwarf honor rules?

Can't link easily on mobile, but because Thor told the dwarves about the bet, they systemically avoided Hel, and Hel had put all her eggs in one basket by having her sole source of fuel come from default flux of dwarven souls (no clerics to drive and expand her congregation to non dwarven races.)

[2D8HP]

Frost Giant god guy is so caring!

It's very sweet.

[Malphegor]

Oof, she's not looking well. I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

I was under the belief that the same pantheon has the same kind of quiddity, so disagreements in-house probably don't cause snarls?

[HandofShadows]

Well, at least she's not planning on throwing away what she still has for now?

[Given what Thor said about TDO, would she even survive the interregnum without the mass influx of dwarven souls?]

Yeah, I think that is very possible. But she is too mad to see it.

[faustin]

If Loki genuinelly cares about Hel, what stops him from forfeiting the bet? I don't think even Thor wants to see his niece wasting away like this.

[Shepsquared]

If Like genuinelly cares about Hel, what stops him from forfeiting the bet? I don't think even Thor wants to see his niece wasting away like this.
Loki probably expected Hel to forfeit the bet ages ago.

[The MunchKING]

If Like genuinelly cares about Hel, what stops him from forfeiting the bet? I don't think even Thor wants to see his niece wasting away like this.

He probably Can't. Aside from the fact that the Bet is between Thor and Hel, and he was just a middleman, it's pretty strongly implied in this strip that the Bet is baked into the Rules of this world.

[Schroeswald]

Loki is sad because he knows Hel is right. Following procedural rules really won’t save the world.

She’s given him something to think about.

I’d say he’s working with Thor and knows what he’s doing, when Elan blew up the gate I bet they decided that they needed to help the Order and fix it.

[atemu1234]

Loki is sad because he knows Hel is right. Following procedural rules really won’t save the world.

She’s given him something to think about.

To be fair, he knows that playing by procedural rules won't save the world. He's a god of mischief; pulling one over on people who play by procedural rules is his M.O.

I'd say he's probably just bummed that his own daughter hates his guts.

[Lord Torath]

Frost Giant god guy is so caring!

It's very sweet.Thrym. His name is Thrym (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html).

Thanks, Giant! :smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

To be honest, I think at least half the reason Loki went for the Bet in the first place, is because he never expected this world to last any longer than the others, and if it wasn't for the possibility of using the Dark One's quiddity to seal away the Snarl for good, he wouldn't have tried to stop her either.

Also jeez that fourth panel. :smalleek:

[WolvesbaneIII]

Looking at her lack of aura in that frame, it makes me think she's in worse shape than the dark one.

On that note, I wonder if we will see another purple aura god emerge in this comic?

[Psyren]

I wonder why she attenuated like that? I know she's not getting a lot of soul energy due to the wager, and Thor and Loki's gambits took even more away, but she seems actually close to a brink of some kind. Those vampire clerics can't have taken it out of her that much?

[Heksefatter]

Hel actually surprisede there. I wouldn't have thought that she hates her dad that much.

[slayerx]

Oof, she's not looking well. I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

That only applies to different pantheons. Anything created with a single color aura can be easily erased by a god. What creates a god killing snarl is when they accidentally create something that is mutlicolored; i.e an argument between two gods of different pantheons.

[Riftwolf]

Frost Giant god guy is so caring!

It's very sweet.

Not really?
He's a classic Nice Guy* and should've quit several pages ago (possibly after some Real Talk with Thor), but persists because he's Nice*and surely she'll see that one day**!
*who expects shows of false sympathy and fawning to win over the girl because that's what every rom-com and love song tells him will work
As for Hels little rant, it's very much in the 'I hate you forever!' category of teenage arguments, and Lokis probably a little stunned that she blames him, but also how impotent her threats are seeing as she might not survive to the next world (she's getting worn out from being angry now, never mind about after a fewer centuries without worship)
**because putting someone else in charge of your own happiness is healthy. Unfortunately I can't mark that sentence as both white and blue. But consider it an Azorius statement

[Coatillion]

I wonder why she attenuated like that? I know she's not getting a lot of soul energy due to the wager, and Thor and Loki's gambits took even more away, but she seems actually close to a brink of some kind. Those vampire clerics can't have taken it out of her that much?

I think its because the undead don't have souls, so all the power she's giving her clerics comes with no return for her. Thats why Loki's wager is so damaging for her. She can only draw power from the dregs of dwarven society and will have no influence on the world unless she exhausts her remaining power to empower her clerics. I think that's why Loki looks so concerned in the last frame. He's realizing that if this world survives Hel will die.

[Peelee]

"I wanted to help my kid in my own special way, but I ended up screwing her future. Now she hates me and wishes me dead."

Something like that?
That interpretation I like.

Loki is sad because he knows Hel is right. Following procedural rules really won’t save the world.

She’s given him something to think about.

Not really? If they can forestall the end, then they can work with The Dark One to save the world. He knows this.

[xroads]

Wow! :smalleek:

I didn't realize how bad of shape Hel is in. I wonder if there is a way to subvert the bet? Like maybe Thor or Loki agree to channel some of their clerical feed into Hel, and she agrees not to argue for souls that they contest?

[Psyren]

I think its because the undead don't have souls, so all the power she's giving her clerics comes with no return for her. Thats why Loki's wager is so damaging for her. She can only draw power from the dregs of dwarven society and will have no influence on the world unless she exhausts her remaining power to empower her clerics. I think that's why Loki looks so concerned in the last frame. He's realizing that if this world survives Hel will die.

Good point, and I forgot this conversation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) as well. Her primary source of sustenance is Dedication, i.e. when dwarves die dishonorably; she's out of balance, and so she is more messed up than she's ever been.

I do find it odd though; any god of monsters should be in the same boat as her. Is it because her Worshipers have to be intelligent undead, since no living dwarf in their right mind would do it? That's a pretty raw deal.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wow! :smalleek:

I didn't realize how bad of shape Hel is in. I wonder if there is a way to subvert the bet? Like maybe Thor or Loki agree to channel some of their clerical feed into Hel, and she agrees not to argue for souls that they contest?

I suggested they could reach an agreement where the vampires are allowed to staff Hel temples (with some kind of arrangement that stops the vampires from murdering the population, etc) so that she can have some proper worship in this world.

ETA:
I do find it odd though; any god of monsters should be in the same boat as her. Is it because her Worshipers have to be intelligent undead, since no living dwarf in their right mind would do it? That's a pretty raw deal.

Not quite, as I understand it. She'd be allowed to have worshipers as long as they aren't priests, but it's impossible to get worshipers without priests to guide them, I'm guessing.

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

To be fair, he knows that playing by procedural rules won't save the world. He's a god of mischief; pulling one over on people who play by procedural rules is his M.O.

I'd say he's probably just bummed that his own daughter hates his guts.

Yea, maybe the joke turned out more mean and less funny than he initially intended.

[Ornithologist]

This does make me somewhat sympathetic of Hel, though not enough to let her get away with anything.

Maybe part of the denouement will have Loki put a vote up at the Godsmoot to end the bet early without consequences. That would likely help Hel survive in a planet that will not be destroyed by the snarl.

[Kantaki]

Unholy Hel...:smalleek:
Goddess of Death and Disease indeed.

[The MunchKING]

I do find it odd though; any god of monsters should be in the same boat as her. Is it because her Worshipers have to be intelligent undead, since no living dwarf in their right mind would do it? That's a pretty raw deal.

Why would Fenir (the God of Monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) ) have that kind of problem? Loads of monsters are reasonably intelligent and can pray while they prey. :smallcool:

[Grey Watcher]

Dang, Hel at maximum art detail is SCARY!


Is Loki sad because he knows there's a way to keep the world going forever, and thus Hel will never recover? Or is it just being yelled at by his kid?

Doesn't sound like an "or" situation to me. If they do manage to pull of the Dark One gambit, he's condemned his daughter to millenia, possibly eons, of a slow, wasting demise. If not, she gets to put her vengeful fury into full force, possibly with extra powers if the gods do manage to destroy the world before the Snarl does. Either way, she hates him, possibly forever (which, for a god, is a much longer time than for us mortals).


Oof, she's not looking well. I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

In the Thor explains metaphysics episode (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html), he says that single-quiddity-color creations are trivially easy to destroy (at least for gods), so I doubt this will result in any Snarl-like problems.

[MReav]

Why would Fenir (the God of Monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) ) have that kind of problem? Loads of monsters are reasonably intelligent and can pray while they prey. :smallcool:

Plus Hel mentioned in the last world, people would pray to her not to die. You would do the same to the god of monsters to not get mauled by monsters.

[Anymage]

If Loki genuinelly cares about Hel, what stops him from forfeiting the bet? I don't think even Thor wants to see his niece wasting away like this.

There's a big question mark as to whether the bet could even be called off. I'm of the opinion that it could, based on admittedly little evidence. Doing so would require Hel to admit a loss, though, paying whatever the terms of the bet were and more importantly eating crow. Hel's pride is the biggest thing standing in the way.


On that note, I wonder if we will see another purple aura god emerge in this comic?

Not within the comic's timeline. If nothing else, it isn't Rich's style to have a solution swoop out of nowhere and there have been no hints that anybody is close to ascension.

If TDO gets a seat at the divine table and the world lasts for a while longer, I'm sure that other goblinoids will ascend to team purple. That's a very long-term view, though.


I wonder why she attenuated like that? I know she's not getting a lot of soul energy due to the wager, and Thor and Loki's gambits took even more away, but she seems actually close to a brink of some kind. Those vampire clerics can't have taken it out of her that much?

She did just lose a year's worth of souls, but she does have three of the four elements of a divine diet going for her. Souls and dedications weren't too scarce (her recent release notwithstanding), and all of dwarven society being afraid of her means that she doesn't lack for belief. It's worship where, depending on interpretation, she either gets negligible or none.

She probably has enough oomph in her to make it across a time between worlds, although she'll be really hungry. And her imbalanced diet is screwing her up even now.

[GregTD]

She declared war on an evil God, and told him that he needs to make sure all her clerics get snuffed early?

Wow, she really is stupid

[Gift Jeraff]

Getting together with Thrym might be in Hel's best interest at this point if she is indeed on the verge of withering away. We saw Malack dedicating a shrine to both Nergal and his wife, so presumably having some frost giants pray to them as an unholy union would allow her to survive if the current world and the wager last indefinitely.

Though from the way Thor worded it, Belief seems like the most important part for a god to continue existing, and there will always be Belief in her existence as long as the dwarven afterlife rules remain.

[GregTD]

As for Hels little rant, it's very much in the 'I hate you forever!' category of teenage arguments, and Loki is probably a little stunned that she blames him

Loki is the one who proposed the bet. He should be blamed.

But only a total idiot tells an evil God "it's war to the knife". Smart evil people attack from behind.


Eh... I mean it kind of depends on how much anti-vampire upgrades the Council of the Clans can actually do before the reconvene. If those domes were rare artifact magic from some forgotten Golden age that can't be easily duplicated, then upping the anti vampire factor may not be that plausible before they have to make a new vote.

When your world gets nuked every thousand years, it's rather difficult to have a "forgotten Golden Age".

All they need to do is have the Orange protections kick in a second time at the Blue level, and Hel's plan is toast. I'm pretty sure their God will be willing to help them with that one

[ben-zayb]

I'm getting a Tarquin-Nale vibe just from before T snuffed his son. Like that of an exasperated resignation on his kid.

How mature is Hel supposed to be anyway?

[Schroeswald]

I'm getting a Tarquin-Nale vibe just from before T snuffed his son. Like that of an exasperated resignation on his kid.

How mature is Hel supposed to be anyway?

Young adult but losing her mind every second.

[Grey Watcher]

If TDO gets a seat at the divine table and the world lasts for a while longer, I'm sure that other goblinoids will ascend to team purple. That's a very long-term view, though.

Maybe not even just goblinoids! Maybe a whole "monster pantheon"! Even without matching quiddity, The Dark One would probably be more likely to trust a fellow "outsider" like a newly ascended God(dess) of Trolls (No, not that kind of troll.) than even the most "monstrous" of the established pantheons (eg Tiamat).

Plus we don't know how "sponsorship" (for want of a better term) works with ascension, but he might see a near-apotheosis entity with aligned interests and deliberately induct them. (I mean, there has to be a reason the elven gods all ended up Red, right? One presumes it's because at least the first one(s) got some sort of sponsorship from one or more existing Red deities.)


Loki is the one who proposed the bet. He should be blamed.

I'm inclined to agree. Loki may be charming enough to garner some (undeserved) sympathy anyway, but this bet is downright abusive. Teaching your child about proper nutrition by deliberately starving them of a key nutrient? Yeouch.

[Anitar]

With the way Hel was looking in the middle of this strip, I was expecting her to be dead by the end of it.

Also, is this the first time a divine being has referred to the Snarl by name? I recall them all pointedly avoiding that during the godsmoot.

[Draconi Redfir]

Doesn't sound like an "or" situation to me. If they do manage to pull of the Dark One gambit, he's condemned his daughter to millenia, possibly eons, of a slow, wasting demise.


it still might not be too long by God standards. realistically, they just need to keep this world going long enough for the Dark One to gain enough power to survive until the next world. After that, they can start a slow, peaceful apocalypse where no new life is born and everyone slowly ages out without suffering. then they can take apart the world quietly and make a new one with more permanent locks.

[Grey Watcher]

With the way Hel was looking in the middle of this strip, I was expecting her to be dead by the end of it.

Also, is this the first time a divine being has referred to the Snarl by name? I recall them all pointedly avoiding that during the godsmoot.

I think that was because they know the mortals can hear them, even if they can't (won't?) hear the mortals, and therefore it runs up against the gag order.

[Kantaki]

I'm getting a Tarquin-Nale vibe just from before T snuffed his son. Like that of an exasperated resignation on his kid.

How mature is Hel supposed to be anyway?

The difference is Loki (seem like he) genuinely regrets that things turned out like this.
Tarquin not so much.

[Chnapy]

If hel plays her cards right, she could still come out better than she came in with this, even if this world keeps existing forever. She's so messed up because she doesn't get any worship, but now she has a High priest, who can make more clerics just by biting regular clerics. She would have been better served by Durkon* or his second in command, who were much higher lvl, but still.
As long as she doesn't get dusted, Curly can still create an actual cult of undead worshippers of Hel.

[The MunchKING]

Loki is the one who proposed the bet. He should be blamed.

But only a total idiot tells an evil God "it's war to the knife". Smart evil people attack from behind.

Depends on what level the Clerics start at I guess, but you get Cure Disease pretty early. ALOT earlier than you get the ability to absorb fire Damage. :smallbiggrin:



When your world gets nuked every thousand years, it's rather difficult to have a "forgotten Golden Age".

Not THAT hard. The Gods just work it into the Backstory when they manifest the world.


Maybe not even just goblinoids! Maybe a whole "monster pantheon"!

The generic Monsters already have Fenrir, and most of the cool monsters have their own custom God/dess.

[Quild]

Well, at least she's not planning on throwing away what she still has for now?

[Given what Thor said about TDO, would she even survive the interregnum without the mass influx of dwarven souls?]

I wonder the same thing since Thor explained that.
Maybe she wouldn't be the only one at risk if the Snarl happens to destroy all living souls. Some other gods may be low on souls.

Loki really did something wicked to his own blood with this wager.


Also, "interregnum", interesting choice of words. A reader of Mr. Brust work maybe? :)

[Corian]

To be honest, I think at least half the reason Loki went for the Bet in the first place, is because he never expected this world to last any longer than the others, and if it wasn't for the possibility of using the Dark One's quiddity to seal away the Snarl for good, he wouldn't have tried to stop her either.


Second this. Loki is realizing that what was intended as a single-world prank/lesson is going to harm his daughter permanently, he rues it, and he can't even blame her for her anger at that level.
Though I suspect that's it's also true that she could concede the bet and end it. Her saying that it's for the duration of this world is her perspective where she won't give up, and she also expects the world to end soon.
I expect this conversation will have huge plot impact going forward.
Great storytelling as always.

[Garwain]

The habit of calming down (or trying to) by giving shingles is already shown here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html

Also, Hel is indeed wasting away by lack of souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html). If the gods can indeed patch this world, it will only prolong Hel's suffering and might be her downfall in the end. That prospect is probably saddening for Loki who probably didn't anticipate that this world would have a chance to survive long enough to deplete Hel.
edit: reading the thread, this idea is ninja'd big time. oh well..

[GregTD]

Not THAT hard. The Gods just work it into the Backstory when they manifest the world

In which case their God knows how to cast the spells, and can pass it on. :-)

[Jasdoif]

Also, is this the first time a divine being has referred to the Snarl by name? I recall them all pointedly avoiding that during the godsmoot.Hel referred to the Snarl by name at the Godsmoot, too. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html)

[Grey Watcher]

Depends on what level the Clerics start at I guess, but you get Cure Disease pretty early. ALOT earlier than you get the ability to absorb fire Damage. :smallbiggrin:



Not THAT hard. The Gods just work it into the Backstory when they manifest the world.



The generic Monsters already have Fenrir, and most of the cool monsters have their own custom God/dess.

True, but I don't think there's anything stopping someone a mortal born under the aegis of Pantheon A converting to the worship of a deity of Pantheon B. If a god specifically for <type-of-monster> arises, I can definitely see their Clerics extolling that more specific interest as a selling point.

[The MunchKING]

In which case their God knows how to cast the spells, and can pass it on. :-)

Only if they're divine. :smalltongue:

If Vecna sets you up with the Arcane version, you may just be SOL (Sad and Out of Luck). :smallbiggrin:

[Anarion]

Hel’s face getting worked up does a great scary gaunt look, I’m impressed. I feel no sympathy for her, but I am a bit sad for the lost relationship with Loki, he really seemed like he was trying to get through to her in his way.

[Schroeswald]

True, but I don't think there's anything stopping someone born under the aegis of Pantheon A converting to the worship of a deity of Pantheon B. If a god specifically for <type-of-monster> arises, I can definitely see their Clerics extolling that more specific interest as a selling point.

Banjo: God of Puppets, what puppet wouldn’t want to worship him?

[Fish]

Hel looks tired, desperate, and unhappy. She needs an ally, but she’s burned all her bridges. That’s why I expect
the Dark One
to show up at the end of the book with an offer.

Also, Loki seems to have a lot on his mind. If the world is saved, his daughter will almost certainly die, trapped forever by the terms of the bet; if the world is destroyed, she might live, freed of the bet, but Loki may die. He might change his mind and turn to the Dark Side. I sense the conflict within him. Loki can destroy the world. I have foreseen it. It is his destiny.

Okay, maybe not, but we were bound to talk about Star Wars eventually. Loki might have enough sympathy to let her have a few souls worth of nourishment. Or make souls available. By betraying the dwarves, or something. You’ll have to draw your own parallel to Alderaan.

[Schroeswald]

Hel looks tired, desperate, and unhappy. She needs an ally, but she’s burned all her bridges. That’s why I expect
the Dark One
to show up at the end of the book with an offer.

Also, Loki seems to have a lot on his mind. If the world is saved, his daughter will almost certainly die; if the world is destroyed, she might live, but Loki may die. He might change his mind and turn to the Dark Side. I sense the conflict within him. Loki can destroy the world. I have foreseen it. It is his destiny.

Okay, maybe not, but we were bound to talk about Star Wars eventually.

Oooh! TDO showing up sounds cool, I don’t know if it would happen but it sounds interesting.

What side would Loki be on if not the Dark Side? He sure isn’t on the Light Side.

[xroads]

As long as she doesn't get dusted, Curly can still create an actual cult of undead worshippers of Hel.

There's also the the Frontarch. But she might be in a rather precarious position once the summit ends. Depending on how things end up she may not have the protection of law, allies, or bodyguards in a room full of people who hate vampires.

[DaFlipp]

Was an end-condition ever established for the wager between Hel and Thor? As in, anything to determine who "wins" the wager?

If not... I just got an idea for a potential end to this thread. After the Order brings an end to things on the mortal side of things, Loki and Thor reappear before Hel to discuss the wager. Hel starts to go off on another tirade, but Thor interrupts her to say:

"You win."

He says that her gambit proved to her just how screwed he and the rest of the pantheon would have been if she'd pulled it off, and that there's no use in continuing the terms of the wager. The dwarven dead are no longer re-distributed over such arbitrary lines, and Hel can once again have clerics among the living.

Of course, she didn't really win - Loki convinced Thor to give her an "out" so the clearly-more-unfair-than-any-party-realized wager could officially be concluded.

Granted, the question then is whether Hel is able to accept the "win", or if she's too proud to take the out given to her...

[Pax_Chi]

I'm with the folks that think Hel threatening Loki is a big mistake on her part. After all, she just gave he dad some very good motivation to ensure that this iteration of the world endures as long as possible, if not indefinitely.

I will say in some respects that Loki's lesson has taught Hel a few things. Her predicament at this point is entirely due to her own shortsightedness, and at the very least she's learned the value of long-term planning. Her plan wasn't actually bad and she put a lot of forethought into it, as well as taking advantage of several opportunities that popped up, so she's clearly upped her game a little.

But on the flip side she's still hasn't completely learned her lesson, since the only reason the Order was able to stop her was because she overplayed her hand and gloated about her victory beforehand.

Part of me is wondering if there's some way out of Hel's current situation that she just hasn't considered. I doubt Loki wanted his daughter to literally fade from existence, and his comments about knowing when to quit could easily be seen as him telling her to just admit that she lost this wager, her dad was right and she's learned not to be so shortsighted. At that point, maybe something could be done to allow her worship so she doesn't fade from existence.

But again, threatening her dad disincentivizes him from giving her access to clerics again, so she might have just doomed herself. Her only shot at this point might be to link herself to the Frost Giant and get his worshipers to worship her as well.

[The MunchKING]

I'm with the folks that think Hel threatening Loki is a big mistake on her part. After all, she just gave he dad some very good motivation to ensure that this iteration of the world endures as long as possible, if not indefinitely.

I dunno. She's still his daughter. He may be thinking once she starts eating right and getting her head back in the right space she'll calm down and get over the ichor-feud.

[Psyren]

Why would Fenir (the God of Monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) ) have that kind of problem? Loads of monsters are reasonably intelligent and can pray while they prey. :smallcool:

What I mean is that there should be a ton of undead in the world - nobody seems that surprised at their presence (we even get "eyes of their wights" puns and similar.) And yeah, only a fraction of those will be intelligent. But it seems that relatively little of them pull for her, despite being their de facto patron in the north, and I don't really know why.



Not quite, as I understand it. She'd be allowed to have worshipers as long as they aren't priests, but it's impossible to get worshipers without priests to guide them, I'm guessing.

Grey Wolf

Yeah it does seem to be a bit of a crapsack loop.

She has a high priest now though (thanks to the "Frontarchy.") If she abandons this hail-mary scheme and simply builds her church up the regular way she might have a better chance, especially if the world doesn't end and she's forced to work with what she's got now.

More importantly though - if she truly does waste away, what then? "God of disease" doesn't seem like a position that can just go unfilled.

[Anymage]

True, but I don't think there's anything stopping someone born under the aegis of Pantheon A converting to the worship of a deity of Pantheon B. If a god specifically for <type-of-monster> arises, I can definitely see their Clerics extolling that more specific interest as a selling point.

If gods could change quiddities, there'd be some with of that. The fact that you don't have any strangely out-of-pantheon gods (like a western zodiac animal having the yellow aura of the norse northeners) strongly implies that you're stuck with the quiddity you were born with.

And while in theory nothing would stop a blue western god from hanging out with the yellow northeners, gods squabble. So long as it's just intra-pantheon squabbling, any resulting snarl-like manifestations are single color and easily dealt with. Inter-pantheon dealings are formal and removed because the risks are so high. If someone with a different color starts hanging out like they were family, they'll most likely start squabbling like family but the risks will be much worse.

[Fish]

Part of me is wondering if there's some way out of Hel's current situation that she just hasn't considered.
The Dark One could offer her the worship of those nerdy rebel goblin kids from the first 100 strips. Worshiping a dwarven death goddess would be paint-your-bedroom-black-and-annoy-your-parents Cool.

[137beth]

Well, this page shoots down my speculation that Loki would use this meeting to propose allowing the last vampire to form a temple in this world, although I suppose he could still do so later. On the other hand, the fact that the camera is away from the dwarves gives ample opportunity for Brightstone and Sigdi to explain what's going on to the council off-panel.

[The MunchKING]

What I mean is that there should be a ton of undead in the world - nobody seems that surprised at their presence (we even get "eyes of their wights" puns and similar.) And yeah, only a fraction of those will be intelligent. But it seems that relatively little of them pull for her, despite being their de facto patron in the north, and I don't really know why.

All the ones we saw were Southerners, and Ex-Paladins. Also I'm not sure if wights inherit classes, but I don't think they do.

So they wouldn't necessarily be overly religious anyway.

Maybe the Dwarves just don't get into Necromancy very much, and the good clerics burn the bodies whenever they aren't getting raised specifically to deny Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html). Come to think of it, with one of the only other known to be Evil Gods being "undead are icky" and the other one seeming to not care about spellcasting, it could be Hel is literally the only who would make Clerics to make Undead in the North. Which means it's up to the Arcane casters. And Although better than AD&D, Dwarves still aren't that into learning Arcane Magic.




Yeah it does seem to be a bit of a crapsack loop.

She has a high priest now though (thanks to the "Frontarchy.") If she abandons this hail-mary scheme and simply builds her church up the regular way she might have a better chance, especially if the world doesn't end and she's forced to work with what she's got now.

More importantly though - if she truly does waste away, what then? "God of disease" doesn't seem like a position that can just go unfilled.

In Scion, someone else who Fate considered close would take over. Or the concept would go unclaimed until someone else rose up to take it, and all the other Pantheons' Death and Disease God/desses would have to work a little harder to pick up the slack.

I'm not sure if OOTS is working on similar logic or not, but it seemed like a reasonable starting place to me.

Maybe Loki would have to pop out another Kid to keep the Norse/North Mythos thing intact.

[Schroeswald]

In Scion, someone else who Fate considered close would take over. Or the concept would go unclaimed until someone else rose up to take it, and all the other Pantheons' Death and Disease God/desses would have to work a little harder to pick up the slack.

I'm not sure if OOTS is working on similar logic or not, but it seemed like a reasonable starting place to me.

Maybe Loki would have to pop out another Kid to keep the Norse/North Mythos thing intact.

I’m not even sure how Hel could be the child of Loki, everyone was created at the same time.

[KorvinStarmast]

Possibly it's sad-dad that his kid would hate him THIS much. Sharper than a serpant's tooth is the tongue of an ungrateful child. On the other hand, CSN suggests teach your children well.

Loki has, by tricking his daughter, set up a bit of bad blood between them (though perhaps with an intent to teach her a lesson?) so he is reaping from the crop that he had sown.

She declared war on an evil God, and told him that he needs to make sure all her clerics get snuffed early? Yeah, trash talking is usually a bad move unless one can back it up.
But only a total idiot tells an evil God "it's war to the knife". Smart evil people attack from behind. Fair point, particularly in a D&D context.
Loki is realizing that what was intended as a single-world prank/lesson is going to harm his daughter permanently, he rues it, and he can't even blame her for her anger at that level. Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice To Deceive ... Loki, a spider caught in a web of his own making.

The Dark One could offer her the worship of those nerdy rebel goblin kids from the first 100 strips. Worshiping a dwarven death goddess would be paint-your-bedroom-black-and-annoy-your-parents Cool. That would be a cool reach back. Hope that's included.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I’m not even sure how Hel could be the child of Loki, everyone was created at the same time.

We don't know that they were created at the same time. For all we know, Odin, Zeus, Dragon and someone from the Eastern Pantheon were the originals, and they created others (who are their children), who created some children of their own.

Grey Wolf

[mjasghar]

Getting together with Thrym might be in Hel's best interest at this point if she is indeed on the verge of withering away. We saw Malack dedicating a shrine to both Nergal and his wife, so presumably having some frost giants pray to them as an unholy union would allow her to survive if the current world and the wager last indefinitely.

Though from the way Thor worded it, Belief seems like the most important part for a god to continue existing, and there will always be Belief in her existence as long as the dwarven afterlife rules remain.
That might count as living clerics which would break the Bet

[gatemansgc]

dang all the souls hel gave up are leaving her drained.

i like the touch with the changes in the speech bubbles!

[The MunchKING]

I’m not even sure how Hel could be the child of Loki, everyone was created at the same time.

Is there any in comic evidence they were all created at the same time? I didn't think we saw any of the original bunches' lives. For all we know they were chilling out for aeons together before they decided to try that whole "making a reality" thing and got into their snarl-fight. Also we do know that Apotheosis is a thing in this universe so the idea that she could be born later and raised up to a Goddess isn't inherently contradictory to the lore.

[mjasghar]

If gods could change quiddities, there'd be some with of that. The fact that you don't have any strangely out-of-pantheon gods (like a western zodiac animal having the yellow aura of the norse northeners) strongly implies that you're stuck with the quiddity you were born with.

And while in theory nothing would stop a blue western god from hanging out with the yellow northeners, gods squabble. So long as it's just intra-pantheon squabbling, any resulting snarl-like manifestations are single color and easily dealt with. Inter-pantheon dealings are formal and removed because the risks are so high. If someone with a different color starts hanging out like they were family, they'll most likely start squabbling like family but the risks will be much worse.

Southern pantheon is Blue and zodiac
Western is Red and sort of Babylonian

[HouseRules]

A snarl could kill less color than it.

If two pantheon argue, a two color snarl could kill a one color god, so they have to join together to push it back.
They need three colors to kill a two color snarl.

The current snarl is four colors, and one pantheon is dead, so they only have three colors.
They need four colors to push the snarl back, and five colors to kill it.
The Dark One is a fourth color.

And then Elan formed an opposition pantheon, though it is still a minor god Banjo the Puppet God and rival Giggles the Slapstick God.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Man, there’s not much sadder than someone wishing death on a parent. The Lokissons are a screwed-up family.

I think her appellation would be Lokisdottir, wouldn't it?

[The MunchKING]

Lokispawn?

[hroþila]

I find it interesting that Hel may be suggesting that the world being undone by the Snarl (rather than safely demolished by the gods) is historically the most frequent outcome by far, and this world's expected fate too.

I think her appellation would be Lokisdottir, wouldn't it?
Lokadóttir. Loki is a weak noun, so the genitive is Loka (see Lokasenna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokasenna)).

[jwhouk]

Loki now has a reason to fight to save this world. And Hel is definitely in no shape to help Curly right now.

[Cazero]

Lokadóttir. Loki is a weak noun, so the genitive is Loka (see Lokasenna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokasenna)).One of the characters of an old videogames I liked is actualy called Lokasenna. Thanks for that.

[Jay R]

Man, there’s not much sadder than someone wishing death on a parent. The Lokissons are a screwed-up family. :smallsad:

As opposed to the happy, well-adjusted family you'd expect from being raised by, and swindled by, Loki.


Also, is this the first time a divine being has referred to the Snarl by name? I recall them all pointedly avoiding that during the godsmoot.

She is rejecting all of Loki's teachings, including, presumably, "Dude, don't taunt the god-killing abomination. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html)"

[Schroeswald]

Loki now has a reason to fight this one. And Hel is definitely in no shape to help Curly right now.
I think it’s possible that granting those spells to all those clerics at dusk drained her (along with the years worth of souls she just lost) to this point, she might be able to recover a little bit tomorrow with two low level clerics to give power to and gaining some souls.

[weasel_airlift]

I wonder the same thing since Thor explained that.

Loki really did something wicked to his own blood with this wager.

:)


Be that as may, but who enters into a bet with the TRICKSTER god and expects to come out on top?

[Guus]

I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

I'm guessing it probably could, but it would only be of one 'color'. Thus allowing the gods to smite it easily.

[Gift Jeraff]

That might count as living clerics which would break the Bet

The majority of worshippers aren't clerics. As long as Hel doesn't actually give spells herself I'd imagine she'd be good. Though I can never see her agreeing to essentially playing second fiddle to Thrym.

[Cazero]

Be that as may, but who enters into a bet with the TRICKSTER god and expects to come out on top?
The direct relative of said trickster god who was led to believe the trick was being played on the other party of the bet who was drunk at the time.

[mjasghar]

The majority of worshippers aren't clerics.

The post I was referring to had her being partnered with Thrymm
If his priests incorporated her she would effectively have them as her priests which isn’t allowed
In addition Thrymm is a Demi god so I’m not sure how much that would help

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The direct relative of said trickster god who was led to believe the trick was being played on the other party of the bet who was drunk at the time.

The first step in many cons is to make the mark think he is conning the conman, indeed.

Grey Wolf

[Mith]

I'm in favour of TDO coming in and proposing a deal to Hel for her to stay alive.

My thought is that if Hel fades, that the result is immediate oblivion to honourless dwarves. Perhaps if she switches to TDO as part of an alliance (see actual Norse myths for this), you see Hel rising back to prominence with goblinkind, while if the bet is part of The Rules, the default state of the dwarves upon death is Oblivion.

[Shoelessgdowar]

I suggested they could reach an agreement where the vampires are allowed to staff Hel temples (with some kind of arrangement that stops the vampires from murdering the population, etc) so that she can have some proper worship in this world.

ETA:

Not quite, as I understand it. She'd be allowed to have worshipers as long as they aren't priests, but it's impossible to get worshipers without priests to guide them, I'm guessing.

Grey Wolf

No living dwarf would worship her, simply because her way is counter intuitive. To end up in her realm, they must avoid conflict at all cost, which by default means never leveling. Conflict risks dying in combat, ergo an honorable death and a ticket to Valhalla.

Technically she could have non-Dwarven Worshipers, but who dedicates themselves to an afterlife of known torment and misery?

[Rogan]

A snarl could kill less color than it.

If two pantheon argue, a two color snarl could kill a one color god, so they have to join together to push it back.
They need three colors to kill a two color snarl.

The current snarl is four colors, and one pantheon is dead, so they only have three colors.
They need four colors to push the snarl back, and five colors to kill it.
The Dark One is a fourth color.

And then Elan formed an opposition pantheon, though it is still a minor god Banjo the Puppet God and rival Giggles the Slapstick God.

You got some source for this? As far as I know, the gods can destroy a single color creation just fine. So I suppose, four colours would be sufficient to get rid of the snarl.


The post I was referring to had her being partnered with Thrymm
If his priests incorporated her she would effectively have them as her priests which isn’t allowed
In addition Thrymm is a Demi god so I’m not sure how much that would help

However, no prosecutor, no judge.
So Thor might decide there is no reason to complain about those priests in order to allow Hel a better diet.

[MReav]

What Hel needs to do is introduce the Necropolitan template.

Or heck, some 4e Revenants. Maybe even use the dwarves she has in her custody. "Here's the deal you filthy, stinky dwarves. Go forth and spread my word and if you do a good job, then when you get back here I'll upgade your accommodations."

[2D8HP]

Not really?
He's a classic Nice Guy* and should've quit several pages ago (possibly after some Real Talk with Thor), but persists because he's Nice*and surely she'll see that one day**!
*who expects shows of false sympathy and fawning to win over the girl because that's what every rom-com and love song tells him will work
As for Hels little rant, it's very much in the 'I hate you forever!' category of teenage arguments, and Lokis probably a little stunned that she blames him, but also how impotent her threats are seeing as she might not survive to the next world (she's getting worn out from being angry now, never mind about after a fewer centuries without worship)
**because putting someone else in charge of your own happiness is healthy. Unfortunately I can't mark that sentence as both white and blue. But consider it an Azorius statement


"Nice guy" behavior (as you describe it) totally works though (if it's real sympathy instead of fake at least), "friends first" led to my being with the women who is now my wife since '92, previous "relationships" based on initial mutual attraction only lasted a few nights.

Though I think this Thrym guy be better off pursuing someone less angry, we desire what we desire, and it's understandable as she is hella foxy!

[Anansiil]

Well deserved anger. Just because you "love me" doesn't mean I can't despise you for screwing me over...

[Ruck]

"Nice guy" behavior (as you describe it) totally works though (if it's real sympathy instead of fake at least), "friends first" led to my being with the women who is now my wife since '92, previous "relationships" based on initial mutual attraction only lasted a few nights.

Though I think this Thrym guy be better off pursuing someone less angry, we desire what we desire, and it's understandable as she is hella foxy!

"Nice guy" behavior isn't about being a friend. It's about pretending to be a friend and fawning over a woman you're only interested in sexually in hopes that you will be rewarded with sex.

(I imagine any woman could tell you how quickly the "Nice Guy" facade drops when they tell their "Nice Guy" that they're only interested in being friends.)

[Frozenstep]

Man, seeing Loki with the :eek: face is quite something. The details on Hel's dialogue bubble in page 4 really helped the panel and moment stand out.

Hel should really take some advice and pull the plug. Get her remaining clerics to safety, then have them start a cult.

[Marcotix]

Yeah wow, seems like none of the gods really though this through. The big missing piece of the puzzle, as I see it, is what Loki is getting / planned to get out of it.

The best motive I've seen so far is "Teaching Hel a Lesson" combined with general incompetence/ unconcern.

Loki hasn't been shown to be this incompetent, and he clearly cares about Hel, so what is he getting here?

Anyway, I wonder if a certain Epic Lich sorceror can/would sweep Hel and take her godhood?

[JumboWheat01]

Giving diseases to people is always a good way to calm the nerves.

[Dion]

The best motive I've seen so far is "Teaching Hel a Lesson"

I honestly think he’s uninterested in teaching anything to anyone. He’s a trickster god who likes to cause trouble. I don’t think there needs to more to it than that.

Or maybe it’s part of a bigger scam. The Loki of American Gods certainly knew how to play the long con. Maybe this Loki does too.

[antipodeF]

I never stopped to consider that Hel is basically a victim in all of this. She's over there dying from lack of Worship in a world that will only make her weaker and weaker. Of COURSE she wants to see it end! It's the only way she'll ever be healthy again!

I hope there's something they can do for her... Maybe agree to see the wager end early? If all parties agree, then I can't see why they couldn't do that. Unless they signed a Signamancy contract with a "no backsies" clause. (Yes, wrong comic, I know. : P )

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No living dwarf would worship her, simply because her way is counter intuitive. To end up in her realm, they must avoid conflict at all cost, which by default means never leveling. Conflict risks dying in combat, ergo an honorable death and a ticket to Valhalla.

No, the agreement that allows her to have temples and priests of her own, protected from adventurers randomly killing them due to them being undead would obviously be contingent on her never claiming a single other soul for dishonorable death. Give all of them a free pass to go to where they should.


Technically she could have non-Dwarven Worshipers, but who dedicates themselves to an afterlife of known torment and misery?

Same kind of person that worships any other evil deity. Presumably there are perks in life to be a Loki worshiper. And of course, Hel used to get worship from individuals that primarily worshiped other gods, but thanked her for not dying every time they could've and didn't. It was such a sweet gig that it made her think that she didn't need priests at all, ignoring that everyone knew to thank her only because of her priests' work, one gathers.


I never stopped to consider that Hel is basically a victim in all of this. She's over there dying from lack of Worship in a world that will only make her weaker and weaker. Of COURSE she wants to see it end! It's the only way she'll ever be healthy again!

I hope there's something they can do for her... Maybe agree to see the wager end early? If all parties agree, then I can't see why they couldn't do that. Unless they signed a Signamancy contract with a "no backsies" clause. (Yes, wrong comic, I know. : P )

The fairly solid assumption here, based on how Hel describes the bet, is that the mechanics of it are backed into the current world. That dwarf non-honorable-death souls do go to her realm first, and that somehow, living beings can't become her priests (not sure what'd happen if one tried). Thus my suggestion she agrees to never dispute any souls, no matter how obvious (which she can do, as we just saw three strips ago), in exchange for legal protection for her undead priests.

It's not quite ending the wager, but it does render it kinda moot.

Grey Wolf

[happycrow]

Thrymm is rising in my estimation as he uses part of his power to restore her (panel 6). I'm reading him now a lot less "fake nice guy" and a lot closer to somebody who's devoted to somebody who's way unbalanced due to chemistry or addiction-type issues.

LDW, Care-taker Thrymm, what is evil coming to?

[Kantaki]

"Nice guy" behavior isn't about being a friend. It's about pretending to be a friend and fawning over a woman you're only interested in sexually in hopes that you will be rewarded with sex.

(I imagine any woman could tell you how quickly the "Nice Guy" facade drops when they tell their "Nice Guy" that they're only interested in being friends.)

Eh, I dunno.
The way Hel's been treating Thrym he might be a actual nice- and really, really dumb -guy.
A tad clueless regarding the „you're just a tool for me” thing maybe, but genuinely in love with her.

Seriously, the more we see him the more Thrym reminds me of a lovesick puppy that doesn't get that it should stay away from the crazy chick that kicks everyone and everything in reach.

[Sky_Schemer]

YLoki hasn't been shown to be this incompetent, and he clearly cares about Hel, so what is he getting here?

What he's getting here is a big lesson in unintended consequences, and how tricks at someone else's expense can have huge reprecussions.

Hel may be the antagonist here, but it was the bet that put her in this position. What we are seeing, and what Loki is seeing for the first time, is what happens when you literally strip everything away from someone: their power, their dignity, their future, and leave them feeling trapped and impotent. And then, when she comes up with a plan to get out of this cycle before she literally wastes away and improve her station in the process, that gets stripped from her too (not that we should root for her here, of course).

Take away everything from someone and then take away their hope, too, and this is what you get: someone who is so desperate, so miserable, so disenfranchised, that they will burn the world around them out of spite.

Crazy thought time: Hel really is a victim here, and is so far gone she will victimize others in turn.

Crazy thought #2: This may not be too far from how the Dark One felt about his people before ascending. It's heavily implied that they existed as canon fodder for PC's. And now he's in a position to do something about it.

[Psyren]

Well, this page shoots down my speculation that Loki would use this meeting to propose allowing the last vampire to form a temple in this world, although I suppose he could still do so later. On the other hand, the fact that the camera is away from the dwarves gives ample opportunity for Brightstone and Sigdi to explain what's going on to the council off-panel.

Technically not her last vampire - just the last one that can pull off the hail-mary dwarven vote plan. (She still has a "high priest" standing around in the moot, unable to be attacked, and who will probably be allowed to depart peacefully too.)


We don't know that they were created at the same time. For all we know, Odin, Zeus, Dragon and someone from the Eastern Pantheon were the originals, and they created others (who are their children), who created some children of their own.

Grey Wolf

Marduk probably? Thor refers to the whole pantheon as "his clan." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) He also occupies a pretty prominent position in the mythology they are lifted from I believe.

[Askthepizzaguy]

She's right, you know.

Yes, she certainly has an understandable motive for this grudge. The facts are that she got screwed by the wager and it is hurting her.

And without that in play, she might not be willing to go to these lengths out of desperation to survive and thrive and give Loki his comeuppance. We aren't seeing Hel on her best day, but on her worst day. Out of all of the worlds that have come before now, this is one where Hel is at her worst, and for a pretty understandable reason.

And she is not in a place where I think she can come back from it. She's determined to doom this world and destroy whoever she has to in order to get what she wants.

A cornered goddess fighting with desperation who is already a goddess of death is not likely to care about the consequences of her actions, unless they serve her interest. And right now, she's willing to reset the scores for every god all the way to zero just so she doesn't lose.

An understandable motive for destroying the world and dooming the souls within it makes for a compelling villain.

Hel is not evil for the lolz or for teh evulz, she's evil because she's trying to not waste away, and she's been tricked into this position, and will settle the score or be destroyed trying.

There's little negotiating with that kind of extremism. And it makes her as dangerous as she could possibly be. And there's a part of her that's right.

It's the perfect toxic soup. I wonder if Hel could have been even a bit more relatable on a "good day". In other words, before this wager.

Akin to Hades, a god of the underworld and of the dead (and the dishonored dead), a necessary god in the grand scheme of things but not maliciously evil (outside of the Hercules cartoon, that is).

If the heroes succeed in this story, and there is some kind of grand compromise that contains the snarl forever, I think Hel still loses because of that damned wager.

Unless the Gods are willing to undo this wager, Hel cannot be turned from her evil motivations and seems to be doomed.

Its her or the rest of the world, unless the author pulls a rabbit out of his hat.

[Schroeswald]

Thrymm is rising in my estimation as he uses part of his power to restore her (panel 6). I'm reading him now a lot less "fake nice guy" and a lot closer to somebody who's devoted to somebody who's way unbalanced due to chemistry or addiction-type issues.

LDW, Care-taker Thrymm, what is evil coming to?

It looked to me like she was able to recover, it looked more like he was just putting his hand on her shoulder.

[Anansiil]

I dunno. She's still his daughter. He may be thinking once she starts eating right and getting her head back in the right space she'll calm down and get over the ichor-feud.

I agree. Hel only threatened his worshippers, not him directly. She plans to hurt him, not kill him. *edit she did say die...I got caught up in my sympathy for Hel /*edit

Also, the wager was on the creation of this world. To change the rules, they'd have to make a new world.

It makes sense that Hel was surprised Thor informed the dwarves, because gods aren't supposed to directly intervene, and that sounds like a big technicality in Thor's favor.

[TRH]

If it's true that Hel's unbalanced soul diet would preclude her surviving to see the next world begin, then that implies her plan could never have worked to begin with. Don't know how to feel about that, or how it can't be true if the same is likely true of the Dark One.

[Fyraltari]

I’m not even sure how Hel could be the child of Loki, everyone was created at the same time.
Everyone in the North believing she is making her that? It worked for Thor's hair and Odin's sanity.

I think her appellation would be Lokisdottir, wouldn't it?

Lokadóttir. Loki is a weak noun, so the genitive is Loka (see Lokasenna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokasenna)).
If we're being strict, shouldn't it be [mother]dóttir?

I find it interesting that Hel may be suggesting that the world being undone by the Snarl (rather than safely demolished by the gods) is historically the most frequent outcome by far, and this world's expected fate too.
I'm guessing Loki is being optimistict when he states they can pull the plug after the last Gate fall, if that was the case (or as probable as he implies) there would be no need for the current Moot.

As opposed to the happy, well-adjusted family you'd expect from being raised by, and swindled by, Loki.
No, that's about what I expected, but that's still sad.


Not really?
He's a classic Nice Guy* and should've quit several pages ago (possibly after some Real Talk with Thor), but persists because he's Nice*and surely she'll see that one day**!
*who expects shows of false sympathy and fawning to win over the girl because that's what every rom-com and love song tells him will work
As for Hels little rant, it's very much in the 'I hate you forever!' category of teenage arguments, and Lokis probably a little stunned that she blames him, but also how impotent her threats are seeing as she might not survive to the next world (she's getting worn out from being angry now, never mind about after a fewer centuries without worship)
**because putting someone else in charge of your own happiness is healthy. Unfortunately I can't mark that sentence as both white and blue. But consider it an Azorius statement
I don't know that last line was the first time he wasn't broadcasting his niceness, I think he is (this one time at the very least) genuine here. Seeing people getting too worked up to stand tends to trigger that kind of reaction.

Yeah wow, seems like none of the gods really though this through. The big missing piece of the puzzle, as I see it, is what Loki is getting / planned to get out of it.

The best motive I've seen so far is "Teaching Hel a Lesson" combined with general incompetence/ unconcern.

Loki hasn't been shown to be this incompetent, and he clearly cares about Hel, so what is he getting here?
Whatever his plan was he didn't plan for a purple-essenced god to arise. That probably shuffled his goals around.


Anyway, I wonder if a certain Epic Lich sorceror can/would sweep Hel and take her godhood?
No-one worships or even likes Xykon and no god would sponsor him, so big fat no here.

I never stopped to consider that Hel is basically a victim in all of this. She's over there dying from lack of Worship in a world that will only make her weaker and weaker. Of COURSE she wants to see it end! It's the only way she'll ever be healthy again!
I just realize a thing: for mortals, death is a fact of life. We don't like to think about it but deep down we all know that everyone we know, and us ourselves, will die someday.

But not immortals. Hel and the rest have existed since the beginning (probably) and the one thing that actually killed some of them is more-or-less caged (though there are still scared ****less of it eons later) and while it is possible for gods to starve according to Thor it seems to be only a problem for very recently (cosmically-speaking) ascended mortals.

The idea of dying would be completely alien to Hel which would make it all the more terrifying. And it would also explain why Loki may not have foreseen the possibility of Hel withering away: the very idea of Hel not being alive (so to speak) would be inconceivable


I hope there's something they can do for her... Maybe agree to see the wager end early? If all parties agree, then I can't see why they couldn't do that. Unless they signed a Signamancy contract with a "no backsies" clause. (Yes, wrong comic, I know. : P )
Both Hel and Thor are unhappy with the state of things and have been for a long time. If they could just back out they would have. I'm guessing the Bet is baked into the fabric of this world.

No, the agreement that allows her to have temples and priests of her own, protected from adventurers randomly killing them due to them being undead would obviously be contingent on her never claiming a single other soul for dishonorable death. Give all of them a free pass to go to where they should.
I'm not sure that's workable. While Clerics would certainly obey orders to let Hel's clergy in peace, most adventurers aren't Clerics and the Gods aren't really important to most folk if we assume Roy's case to be the usual one. Such an agreement would also give Hel's clergy free rein to murder and destroy which most people (and gods) would object to.

[Schroeswald]

I agree. Hel only threatened his worshippers, not him directly. She plans to hurt him, not kill him.

Also, the wager was on the creation of this world. To change the rules, they'd have to make a new world.

It makes sense that Hel was surprised Thor informed the dwarves, because gods aren't supposed to directly intervene, and that sounds like a big technicality in Thor's favor.

“You will waste away and DIE!” is a pretty good indicator that she wants him dead.

I disagree, if Strip 1 is any indication they can change the rules, and what else would having somewhat frequent Godsmoots (one dude who doesn’t seem all that old has come a few times to learn to bring snacks for Dvalin, especially considering he can’t always be called as a tie-breaking) do?

[KorvinStarmast]

Presumably there are perks in life to be a Loki worshiper. I realized that I am crossing editions with this answer, but in 5e there is a Trickery Domain where one gets class features and domain spells for being a worshipper of Trickster deities ... such as Loki. :smallcool: (I suspect that there's a 3.5 analog but I can't get to SRD at the moment).

EDIT: Oh, Trickery is a 3.5e domain. NVM. Woot, Time Stop as a level 9 spell. Nice.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm not sure that's workable. While Clerics would certainly obey orders to let Hel's clergy in peace, most adventurers aren't Clerics and the Gods aren't really important to most folk if we assume Roy's case to be the usual one. Such an agreement would also give Hel's clergy free rein to murder and destroy which most people (and gods) would object to.

So you are suggesting that evil clerics are routinely shanked in cities by adventuring parties? Because the one(s) in Greysky seemed to be perfectly fine. So there must be something that protects those clerics from adventurers. And the same for good clerics from evil adventuring parties.

Such agreement would also not give anyone free rein to murder, anymore than it gives anyone else in any city free rein to murder. The agreement is: you don't claim any souls, and we write into law that destroying your vampire priests is murder.

It doesn't give those vampires carte blanche to murder, nor does it give a pass to adventurers that do the same (unlike now, where adventurers do get a pass when they murder vampires because they are vampires).

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

I disagree, if Strip 1 is any indication they can change the rules
We don't know thatw as their doing. If they could control the rules of the universe they'd make it so they are not dependent on mortal worship to survive. And wish the Snarl out of existence. These gods are clearly not omnipotent.

and what else would having somewhat frequent Godsmoots (one dude who doesn’t seem all that old has come a few times to learn to bring snacks for Dvalin, especially considering he can’t always be called as a tie-breaking) do?
The same things political assemblies all over the world do: honestly, not much.

But really, probably mostly resolve disputes between them.

EDIT:

So you are suggesting that evil clerics are routinely shanked in cities by adventuring parties? Because the one(s) in Greysky seemed to be perfectly fine. So there must be something that protects those clerics from adventurers. And the same for good clerics from evil adventuring parties.
My guess is firepower. Which Hel's church sorely lacks.


Such agreement would also not give anyone free rein to murder, anymore than it gives anyone else in any city free rein to murder. The agreement is: you don't claim any souls, and we write into law that destroying your vampire priests is murder.
Since when do the gods write mortal laws?

[The_Weirdo]

Possibly it's sad-dad that his kid would hate him THIS much.

You mean after he tricked her into malnourishment over pretty much nothing?


Sharper than a serpant's tooth is the tongue of an ungrateful child. On the other hand, CSN suggests teach your children well.

Loki has, by tricking his daughter, set up a bit of bad blood between them (though perhaps with an intent to teach her a lesson?) so he is reaping from the crop that he had sown.

Yep. Even sharper is the tongue of a child that is exactly as grateful as they should be, as Loki is learning here.

[Schroeswald]

We don't know thatw as their doing. If they could control the rules of the universe they'd make it so they are not dependent on mortal worship to survive. And wish the Snarl out of existence. These gods are clearly not omnipotent.

The same things political assemblies all over the world do: honestly, not much.

But really, probably mostly resolve disputes between them.

EDIT:

My guess is firepower. Which Hel's church sorely lacks.


Since when do the gods write mortal laws?

Presumably they can change the rules of a world, make people "self-aware", and the mechanics have clearly changed several times in the past decades, and since presumably much of these mechanics were created by the gods, it makes sense that they could change it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My guess is firepower. Which Hel's church sorely lacks.
So the Church of Hel gets protected by other churches on their gods' commands until Hel's Church can stand on its own two undead feet.


Since when do the gods write mortal laws?

Since they can tell dwarves "write these laws and you won't have to fear Hel's gauntlet anymore". And can have their clerics everywhere else lobby for that elsewhere. Clerics tend to be powerful members of communities with a lot of political pull. And even non-clerics can be devoted followers of gods willing to listen to the gods' suggestions.

Grey Wolf

[weasel_airlift]

So you are suggesting that evil clerics are routinely shanked in cities by adventuring parties? Because the one(s) in Greysky seemed to be perfectly fine. So there must be something that protects those clerics from adventurers. And the same for good clerics from evil adventuring parties.

Such agreement would also not give anyone free rein to murder, anymore than it gives anyone else in any city free rein to murder. The agreement is: you don't claim any souls, and we write into law that destroying your vampire priests is murder.

It doesn't give those vampires carte blanche to murder, nor does it give a pass to adventurers that do the same (unlike now, where adventurers do get a pass when they murder vampires because they are vampires).

Grey Wolf

Even in the normal tabletop D & D is it normal for adventuring parties to slaughter priests? I did with one character I had, but he was chaotic evil, and his main goal in life was to get under the party leader's (A paladin) skin

[DavidBV]

I suspect nothing of this will be of great consequence. My prediction for the ending of OoTS is the snarl world, free of the control of gods, becomes the next and final world.

I would however love to see another strip with the gods before the end of the book, hopefully a Loki-Thor conversation. It's surprising how those two are able to cooperate when needed.

[Gift Jeraff]

Eh, I dunno.
The way Hel's been treating Thrym he might be a actual nice- and really, really dumb -guy.
A tad clueless regarding the „you're just a tool for me” thing maybe, but genuinely in love with her.

Seriously, the more we see him the more Thrym reminds me of a lovesick puppy that doesn't get that it should stay away from the crazy chick that kicks everyone and everything in reach.

Maybe he likes the verbal abuse.

[Fyraltari]

So the Church of Hel gets protected by other churches on their gods' commands until Hel's Church can stand on its own two undead feet.



Since they can tell dwarves "write these laws and you won't have to fear Hel's gauntlet anymore". And can have their clerics everywhere else lobby for that elsewhere. Clerics tend to be powerful members of communities with a lot of political pull. And even non-clerics can be devoted followers of gods willing to listen to the gods' suggestions.

Grey Wolf

Thor can’t even get his own clergy to accept that trees aren’t evil, so I am not confident in believing that the gods could get their followers to not only accept undead priests of an evil deity but to cover their asses while they recruit which would necessarily involve making some more undead (which in both cases I know of of undead that can serve as her Clerics (wights and vampires*) means trapping people’s souls).

*I call dibs on that name for a metal band, by the way.

[hroþila]

I don't think Thor ever told the dwarves to write any laws or do anything in particular, I think he simply told them about the bet and dwarven society developed in a certain way as a result, until some aspects of it were codified into law.

If we're being strict, shouldn't it be [mother]dóttir?
Nah, women used the name of their father too, as they still do in Iceland. Matronymics did and do happen, but they're not the norm.

[Psychronia]

Hel's little outburst was genuinely terrifying, but the aftermath was more tragic than anything. The irony is that if it weren't for well-known gods directly connected to her like Loki, she probably wouldn't survive to the making of the new world as she is.

I'm still a little iffy about why Loki arranged for the bet at all. I'm sure we'll get an explanation eventually, but as it stands, it feels like everyone gets a raw deal. The Dwarves, Hel, heck, even the other gods of the pantheon have to go out of their way to argue with a malnourished death goddess prone to tantrums just to get their Dwarven followers' souls to their rightful domains.

I can't even argue that this was Loki being myth-classic Loki and doing it for the laughs, because:
:belkar: Where's the punchline?

...Also, poor Thrym. He's doing his best to be as supportive as possible. I'm pretty sure he's sincere about all this and it's just another one of Hel's toxic relationships. Well, maybe things were better in a previous world.


Oof, she's not looking well. I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

I'm going to assume no. The Snarl happened because (as far as we know) the different quiddities got tangled up to create a 4-color being. Since there's only one color, I assume it's either pretty hard to tangle anything at all, or any tangles would only be as potent as a cantrip to the gods.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

which in both cases I know of of undead that can serve as her Clerics (wights and vampires*

Hardly the only ones. Mummies can also become self-aware, as do, of course, litches, which technically trap souls but do so voluntarily. But there is a whole host of skeletons that could also serve, including the one already in the comic created by RC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html).

And IIRC, when Hel complained about her priests getting shanked as low-level bosses, wasn't she talking of regular skeletons with class levels?

Grey Wolf

[Emanick]

Thor can’t even get his own clergy to accept that trees aren’t evil, so I am not confident in believing that the gods could get their followers to not only accept undead priests of an evil deity but to cover their asses while they recruit which would necessarily involve making some more undead (which in both cases I know of of undead that can serve as her Clerics (wights and vampires*) means trapping people’s souls).

*I call dibs on that name for a metal band, by the way.

My read is that Thor could get his clergy to accept that trees are evil (witness him explaining to Durkon and Minrah that they don't have to be afraid of the trees around Valhalla), but that he chooses not to try, perhaps in order to give dwarves one more way to die in battle (witness him also, after sighing heavily, going on to tell them that the trees around Valhalla are rebel trees and that most of Leeky Windstaff's deciduous and coniferous brothers are still class-A villains).

Also, aren't wights neither capable of becoming clerics nor beings that trap souls?

[Basement Cat]

No, Hel doesn't look healthy. She started fading away in front of Loki and Thyrm.

I suspect that Hel may not survive another interregum and Loki is sad both at Hel's understandable hatred and the likelihood that his daughter of billions of years may die because of the bet he set up between Hel and Thor.

[Schroeswald]

Hel's little outburst was genuinely terrifying, but the aftermath was more tragic than anything. The irony is that if it weren't for well-known gods directly connected to her like Loki, she probably wouldn't survive to the making of the new world as she is.
If it wasn't for these connections I doubt she'd still be alive right now.


I'm still a little iffy about why Loki arranged for the bet at all. I'm sure we'll get an explanation eventually, but as it stands, it feels like everyone gets a raw deal. The Dwarves, Hel, heck, even the other gods of the pantheon have to go out of their way to argue with a malnourished death goddess prone to tantrums just to get their Dwarven followers' souls to their rightful domains.

I can't even argue that this was Loki being myth-classic Loki and doing it for the laughs, because:
:belkar: Where's the punchline?


It even hurts Loki, because he doesn't get all that many supporters if honor is against his preachings and the society is based on honor.

[Jay R]

I disagree, if Strip 1 is any indication they can change the rules, ...

This is a comic strip. I suspect that they can only change the rules within the parameters of the Roger Rabbit rule -- "Not any time. Only when it was funny."


If it's true that Hel's unbalanced soul diet would preclude her surviving to see the next world begin, then that implies her plan could never have worked to begin with. Don't know how to feel about that, or how it can't be true if the same is likely true of the Dark One.

Except that if this world falls, but they salvage all the souls in it, then all the dwarves who die at that moment are hers, since they didn't die in an honorable way.

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hel_zps80xxfgvn.png: But this world is almost done, and when it is, I'll collect millions of souls all at once -- and my winnings from the bet. Thor and Loki will have Hel to pay! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I guess Loki is finally seeing that the Bet really has destabilized Hel. Even for me, seeing the exact symptoms she’s suffering from in this comic is pretty saddening. I wonder if there’s some way to release her from the Bet without destroying the world?

[TRH]

Except that if this world falls, but they salvage all the souls in it, then all the dwarves who die at that moment are hers, since they didn't die in an honorable way.

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hel_zps80xxfgvn.png: But this world is almost done, and when it is, I'll collect millions of souls all at once -- and my winnings from the bet. Thor and Loki will have Hel to pay! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html)

And yet there was talk about how the imbalance in her diet could cost her regardless. Also, look at the Dark One. If the world ends, he'll get all the souls of not one race, but several, and yet that's potentially not enough to tide him over. And he hasn't suffered from a lack of worship like Hel has. If he couldn't make it, how could she?

[Fyraltari]

Hardly the only ones. Mummies can also become self-aware, as do, of course, litches, which technically trap souls but do so voluntarily. But there is a whole host of skeletons that could also serve, including the one already in the comic created by RC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html).
Well, I did say "That I know of". :smalltongue:

Can all of them become Clerics though? And this doesn,'t solve the fact that undead seem to be persona non-grata everywhere that isn't a criminal organisation in a city with more criminals than victims (and even the back-alley doctor doesn't like them) or at the Oracle's place.


And IIRC, when Hel complained about her priests getting shanked as low-level bosses, wasn't she talking of regular skeletons with class levels?

Grey Wolf
Nope (9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html)). What's a ghast even?

My read is that Thor could get his clergy to accept that trees are evil (witness him explaining to Durkon and Minrah that they don't have to be afraid of the trees around Valhalla), but that he chooses not to try, perhaps in order to give dwarves one more way to die in battle (witness him also, after sighing heavily, going on to tell them that the trees around Valhalla are rebel trees and that most of Leeky Windstaff's deciduous and coniferous brothers are still class-A villains).
But that's my point! Even after they are dead and safe and with him telling them point blank trees aren,'t evil they refuse to believe him! If a god were to order his flock to tolerate and protect the undead, I would expect the main result to be a severe drop in temple attendance. Or people just plain pretending he didn't say that or that people are taking it out of context or something.

[Schroeswald]

And yet there was talk about how the imbalance in her diet could cost her regardless. Also, look at the Dark One. If the world ends, he'll get all the souls of not one race, but several, and yet that's potentially not enough to tide him over. And he hasn't suffered from a lack of worship like Hel has. If he couldn't make it, how could she?

I think the unbalance would mess up her mind, but she gets a lot of dedication and a lot of souls, her worship would be pathetic so she'd be very crazy but she could survive, the main reason I imagine is that she already has some old soul reserves that TDO wouldn't (and not all goblinoids would necessary go to him, bugbears like Oona would likely go to their alignment afterlife as seen by Roy).

[Emanick]

But that's my point! Even after they are dead and safe and with him telling them point blank trees aren,'t evil they refuse to believe him!

This doesn't look like a refusal to believe Thor. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Marduk probably? Thor refers to the whole pantheon as "his clan." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) He also occupies a pretty prominent position in the mythology they are lifted from I believe.Yes, we've been shown that Marduk is in charge of the Western Pantheon. Zeus was Eastern.


It's surprising how those two are able to cooperate when needed.

Well, they are brothers.

[Kantaki]

You mean after he tricked her into malnourishment over pretty much nothing?



Yep. Even sharper is the tongue of a child that is exactly as grateful as they should be, as Loki is learning here.

I mean he was basically trying to teach her why eating your veggies is important.

That his choosen method was to remove said veggies from her diet was perhaps a tad unwise- and her uncle stealing all her meat doesn't help either.

But ultimately?
Not admitting Loki was right.
Throwing away resources for a chance to win that stupid bet.
Not giving up on the stupid bet.
Accepting the stupid bet in the first place.
All on Hel.

So while Loki's way of teaching his little darling definitely wasn't particularly well thought out Hel is just as much to blame for the situation getting this bad.
(As is Thor to a degree, but considering he was doing his best to shield innocents from his drunken mistake he was at least trying to do good.)

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean he was basically trying to teach her why eating your veggies is important.
{snip}

So while Loki's way of teaching his little darling definitely wasn't particularly well thought out Hel is just as much to blame for the situation getting this bad. I was a little surprised that during her panel 4 diatribe/threat, she didn't add

"And stop calling me Pumpkin! I know you think it's endearing, but it's also condescending! I am the Goddess of Death and have been for a few million worlds now."

Then again, there's only so much room in one panel.

[The MunchKING]

Same kind of person that worships any other evil deity. Presumably there are perks in life to be a Loki worshiper.
Grey Wolf

It's not really the same. Helheim is a nasty place where Hel tortures you all the time. Loki gets you into Valhalla. Possibly to sit at the Cool Kids table.


I agree. Hel only threatened his worshippers, not him directly. She plans to hurt him, not kill him.

Depends on how you take "You Will Waste Away and DIE as your name is erased from every history book." In her current state I think she plans to do to Loki what has been done to her. Prevent him from having any Clerics and spreading his name/influence, which will lead to him starving from lack of prayer. And when she says it now, she means she's not going to let up until he literally dies from it. (Which depending on your take on Gods dying may just dump him in her realm to be Gram's new chew toy).


If it's true that Hel's unbalanced soul diet would preclude her surviving to see the next world begin, then that implies her plan could never have worked to begin with. Don't know how to feel about that, or how it can't be true if the same is likely true of the Dark One.

I think the idea is the sudden dwarf-soul dump on her would keep her alive, if not healthy (because it's still crazy unbalanced) until the next world. Heck between that and the bet she thinks she would still have top power.


If we're being strict, shouldn't it be [mother]dóttir?

Which may still be Loki. I know for Fenrir and Slepnir he was the Mom. I don't know for Hel or Jornmunger, although Brathalla agreed with OOTS in having Hel always CALL him "Dad".



No-one worships or even likes Xykon and no god would sponsor him, so big fat no here.

Apotheosis has been proven to be a thing, so if he can just sacrifice ENOUGH Life essence, and get ENOUGH people believing in his as an Undead God of Death it might work out.

Doesn't mean he'd fit neatly into Hel's slot unless Fate is a lot more like Scion than our current indicators have shown.



You mean after he tricked her into malnourishment over pretty much nothing?

Yup. He's Loki. The idea that he DESERVES to be hated still doesn't stop him from feeling sad he IS hated.


So the Church of Hel gets protected by other churches on their gods' commands until Hel's Church can stand on its own two undead feet.

The problem is Vampires KIND OF need to Murder people and trap the souls of the bodies to propagate. If the idea is to get the Church of Hel up and running, they will need enough murdering to get the clergy going at the least.


Even in the normal tabletop D & D is it normal for adventuring parties to slaughter priests? I did with one character I had, but he was chaotic evil, and his main goal in life was to get under the party leader's (A paladin) skin

Evil ones? Sure. Usually if you could get them right as they were trying to summon a demon or undead army to wreck the world, you got the I Saved the World bonus.


I'm still a little iffy about why Loki arranged for the bet at all. I'm sure we'll get an explanation eventually, but as it stands, it feels like everyone gets a raw deal. The Dwarves, Hel, heck, even the other gods of the pantheon have to go out of their way to argue with a malnourished death goddess prone to tantrums just to get their Dwarven followers' souls to their rightful domains.

My guess was that "teach Hel a lesson" was the excuse he would tell people. But his real goal was to become the default Evil/Chaos God for the Dwarves as well. He was hoping to get a Hylgia type who would lead all the Chaotics and such to him for the "alternate argument Honor" and he'd rake in all the Chaotic Dwarves. But a combination of strong cultural pressure to be Lawful and a lack of a Hylgia-type to lead them, means he was stuck with whatever slipped through the cracks. Which because he had Clerics and spread throughout the Human lands, was merely a minor setback to him rather than the big deal it was to Hel.

It's part of a theory that he also influenced Odin to go bonkers, and Thor to be stuck trying to be Lawful to protect the Dwarves so that everyone close to him in power would be too distracted by their own problems to stop him from doing even MORE shenanigans.


And yet there was talk about how the imbalance in her diet could cost her regardless. Also, look at the Dark One. If the world ends, he'll get all the souls of not one race, but several, and yet that's potentially not enough to tide him over. And he hasn't suffered from a lack of worship like Hel has. If he couldn't make it, how could she?

Tapping into Pantheon reserves would be the other option. All the belief that the North has stored up in the concept of them as the Psudeo-Norse Pantheon as a whole. The Dark One, being new wouldn't have any of that, and the minor Gods Thor has seen die off weren't integrated strongly enough into the Pantheon to be part of their collective Legend would be my guess.


Well, I did say "That I know of". :smalltongue:

Can all of them become Clerics though? And this doesn,'t solve the fact that undead seem to be persona non-grata everywhere that isn't a criminal organisation in a city with more criminals than victims (and even the back-alley doctor doesn't like them) or at the Oracle's place.

I thought pretty much anything that was free willed COULD Be a Cleric if it got enough XP to go up a level. Preferably you'd want something with a decent WIS, but unlike AD&D that's not strictly required...

[RatElemental]

Is Loki sad because he knows there's a way to keep the world going forever, and thus Hel will never recover? Or is it just being yelled at by his kid?

Bit late here but I think it's because she went invisible for a second there and he realized he might be killing his kid.

[Ruck]

This doesn't look like a refusal to believe Thor. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html)

It does to me.

[understatement]

wOw, scary Hel is freakin' awesome.

The gods have been great so far!

[D.One]

I thought pretty much anything that was free willed COULD Be a Cleric if it got enough XP to go up a level. Preferably you'd want something with a decent WIS, but unlike AD&D that's not strictly required...

Well, a Cleric without enough WIS to cast spells isn't a terribly effective cleric (although it can have big CHA and attract lots of followers), but it's also a cleric that spends little divine power...

Now I'm wondering who (which god) would give spells for Belkar if he had enough WIS...

[The_Weirdo]

I mean he was basically trying to teach her why eating your veggies is important.

That his choosen method was to remove said veggies from her diet was perhaps a tad unwise- and her uncle stealing all her meat doesn't help either.

But ultimately?
Not admitting Loki was right.
Throwing away resources for a chance to win that stupid bet.
Not giving up on the stupid bet.
Accepting the stupid bet in the first place.
All on Hel.

So while Loki's way of teaching his little darling definitely wasn't particularly well thought out Hel is just as much to blame for the situation getting this bad.
(As is Thor to a degree, but considering he was doing his best to shield innocents from his drunken mistake he was at least trying to do good.)

First, a question: was this about the divine food pyramid? Because it didn't seem that way. It seemed like more of a bet for Loki's own purposes.

Second, in either case, we'd be talking about a parent that fed their daughter nothing but (say) candy for weeks on end and got her hospitalized for it. Mind, Hel is an adult, so the analogy has some issues, but you got the point. It's still dysfunctional and harmful either ways and, while Hel can easily be angry at him, he can't exactly be angry at her for a harmful situation that, no matter how you look at it, he initiated.

Mind: I hate Hel.


I was a little surprised that during her panel 4 diatribe/threat, she didn't add

"And stop calling me Pumpkin! I know you think it's endearing, but it's also condescending! I am the Goddess of Death and have been for a few million worlds now."

Then again, there's only so much room in one panel.

It would take away fro the gravitas of the situation, too. While she throws temper tantrums all the time, this isn't one; she's legitimately furious at her father, and even he seems to believe it's with good reason.


Yup. He's Loki. The idea that he DESERVES to be hated still doesn't stop him from feeling sad he IS hated.

Oh, certainly. I mean, he may even feel sadder that he knows he deserves it.

[Matt620]

The deity version of a spoiled tantrum. I hope that's enough from Hel for the time being.

[Schroeswald]

Yes, we've been shown that Marduk is in charge of the Western Pantheon. Zeus was Eastern.



Well, they are brothers.

Odin is shown as the boss of the Northern Pantheon too, called Thor's father, if we are to assume they developed before creating the worlds I'd say each developed independently, six Eastern Gods, twelve Southern Gods, a few Western Gods, and two or three Northern Gods started and then they (barring the Southerners) breeded with their own quiddity and a few special types of Outsiders. By the time that they created the first world there were 12 Westerners, 12 or so Easterners, 12 Southerners and 12 Northerners (I'd say 14 Easterners because that number more accurately matches the mythology, but twelve Northern and Southern Gods and we can pretend the others we see in the West joined since).

[The MunchKING]

Well, a Cleric without enough WIS to cast spells isn't a terribly effective cleric (although it can have big CHA and attract lots of followers), but it's also a cleric that spends little divine power...

Now I'm wondering who (which god) would give spells for Belkar if he had enough WIS...

He's a Ranger, so he might just pull it from the Primal Powers of Nature or something.

Otherwise the North has a few guys and gals that minor in Fertility/Nature and the South is a collective, so who knows what their Purviews are...

[The_Weirdo]

The deity version of a spoiled tantrum. I hope that's enough from Hel for the time being.

No. Hel throws tantrums all the time. And she is, well, evil, petty, etc. But here? Here we're not talking about the equivalent of a child whose father denied her a toy. We're talking about the equivalent of a child whose father spent a month or so feeding her only sweets and who is now justifiably enraged that her father's decision landed her in a hospital for three months to treat several problems arising from that at once.

[D.One]

I still think the bet thing will be further explored as part of a greater plan besides "teaching Hel that clerics and worship are important". I do think, however, Loki seems a little regretful about her current state.

Aaaand, I'm still curious about what are the winnings of the bet, besides gloating.

[Schroeswald]

No. Hel throws tantrums all the time. And she is, well, evil, petty, etc. But here? Here we're not talking about the equivalent of a child whose father denied her a toy. We're talking about the equivalent of a child whose father spent a month or so feeding only on sweets and who is now justifiably enraged that her father's decision landed her in a hospital for three months to treat several problems arising from that at once.
Though to be fair the latest problems came from her trying to steal everyone else's candy and her pushing her sugar rush far too long.

[The MunchKING]

Aaaand, I'm still curious about what are the winnings of the bet, besides gloating.

Presumably Soul power. Enough of it she felt justified in including it with the dead souls as what would make her more powerful than Odin.

I mean knowing how they work it COULD just be some ridiculously powerful Artifact. Their basis did like betting those a lot in Scion...

[The_Weirdo]

Though to be fair the latest problems came from her trying to steal everyone else's candy and her pushing her sugar rush far too long.

I most certainly agree with you there, but Hel's anger towards Loki isn't about that part, is it?

[Schroeswald]

Presumably Soul power. Enough of it she felt justified in including it with the dead souls as what would make her more powerful than Odin.

I mean knowing how they work it COULD just be some ridiculously powerful Artifact. Their basis did like betting those a lot in Scion...
"So if Thor wins, he gets that dog of yours for a world, and if you win you get Mjolnir for a world, deal?"

I most certainly agree with you there, but Hel's anger towards Loki isn't about that part, is it?

I mean the reason she's so bad right now comes from her giving power to the clerics and giving up a bunch of souls for a better chance to get the 10 million.

[The MunchKING]

First, a question: was this about the divine food pyramid? Because it didn't seem that way. It seemed like more of a bet for Loki's own purposes.

I mean it does seem a bit like she needed to learn the value of Belief and Worship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html); but also now that I look at the metaphor it also seems to be some kind of "Don't abuse the help when they bring you food" thing too. She rejected the clerics because they COST her power, and took the souls and fear of death at the moment of death because it GAVE her power. SO yeah, she needed to learn something about being willing to pay the grocery man so he'll bring you more food than your giving him. Or something like that. The metaphor isn't perfect.

[pendell]

So does anyone know what the deal is with Hel's speech balloons? I notice they shade from her normal divine-yellow to undead-black, then back to normal again. Is there anything to that beyond simple emphasis by the writer?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The_Weirdo]

I mean it does seem a bit like she needed to learn the value of Belief and Worship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html); but also now that I look at the metaphor it also seems to be some kind of "Don't abuse the help when they bring you food" thing too. She rejected the clerics because they COST her power, and took the souls and fear of death at the moment of death because it GAVE her power. SO yeah, she needed to learn something about being willing to pay the grocery man so he'll bring you more food than your giving him. Or something like that. The metaphor isn't perfect.

Maybe, yes. But still, if, through this bet, he maddened and weakened her to make a point, he can't exactly be surprised when she's furious at him...


So does anyone know what the deal is with Hel's speech balloons? I notice they shade from her normal divine-yellow to undead-black, then back to normal again. Is there anything to that beyond simple emphasis by the writer?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Her voice likely changed to her beyond-the-grave, power-over-the-undead, reverberating-fear-me-because-I-am-enraged voice.

Respectfully,

Not Brian P.

[The MunchKING]

So does anyone know what the deal is with Hel's speech balloons? I notice they shade from her normal divine-yellow to undead-black, then back to normal again. Is there anything to that beyond simple emphasis by the writer?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

She's presumably channeling Negative Energy and her Purview as the Goddess of Death to give her more of that "Evil Undead Queen" voice. If she was a dude she'd sound like James Earl Jones, but as she's not I don't know if she gets more a Gladreal voice or what.

[Schroeswald]

So does anyone know what the deal is with Hel's speech balloons? I notice they shade from her normal divine-yellow to undead-black, then back to normal again. Is there anything to that beyond simple emphasis by the writer?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Partially that (though notice that the text is yellow), but she is also fading from existence, as she gets more unstable she also gets more skeletal, and thus more undead/weaker.

[Fyraltari]

This doesn't look like a refusal to believe Thor. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html)
Are you serious? This is exactly what not believing someone but being unwilling to contradict them looks like.

Apotheosis has been proven to be a thing, so if he can just sacrifice ENOUGH Life essence, and get ENOUGH people believing in his as an Undead God of Death it might work out.
Life essence? We know of two things necessary to ascend:
1) a chole bunch of people following your teachings and
2) Tapping into a divine essence either by "sponsorship" or however the Dark POne did.

Nobody follows Xykon willingly, nobody sees him as anything more than a dangerus madman. The Dark One had a million goblins going on a year-long revenge-fueled rampage. When Xykon dies he will get a few "good riddance" and maybe a party.




I thought pretty much anything that was free willed COULD Be a Cleric if it got enough XP to go up a level. Preferably you'd want something with a decent WIS, but unlike AD&D that's not strictly required...
I prefer not to make any assumptions regarding D&D rules. For all I know any given type of undead could be barred from chanelling divine power.

First, a question: was this about the divine food pyramid? Because it didn't seem that way. It seemed like more of a bet for Loki's own purposes.
We don't know what it was about. The closest we got to hear an explanation from Loki is when he tried to tell Hel his intention wasn't to stop her from attending the Moots/curbing her influence which may or may not be true.

The whole "teach her a lesson" comes from the fact that Hel clearly did not see Clerics as important before that world.


Second, in either case, we'd be talking about a parent that fed their daughter nothing but (say) candy for weeks on end and got her hospitalized for it. Mind, Hel is an adult, so the analogy has some issues, but you got the point. It's still dysfunctional and harmful either ways and, while Hel can easily be angry at him, he can't exactly be angry at her for a harmful situation that, no matter how you look at it, he initiated.
He doesn't look angry at Hel at all. Mostly sad and disappointed.

[Squire Doodad]

And, two weeks later, Hel and Thyrm start going out. And they lived happily ever after until the world ended. The end.

[The_Weirdo]

He doesn't look angry at Hel at all. Mostly sad and disappointed.

Yes, it was my point; even he can tell he screwed up bad.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, a Cleric without enough WIS to cast spells isn't a terribly effective cleric (although it can have big CHA and attract lots of followers), but it's also a cleric that spends little divine power...

Now I'm wondering who (which god) would give spells for Belkar if he had enough WIS...

Skadi, presumably.

[The MunchKING]

Life essence? We know of two things necessary to ascend:
1) a chole bunch of people following your teachings and
2) Tapping into a divine essence either by "sponsorship" or however the Dark POne did.

Nobody follows Xykon willingly, nobody sees him as anything more than a dangerus madman. The Dark One had a million goblins going on a year-long revenge-fueled rampage. When Xykon dies he will get a few "good riddance" and maybe a party.

That was my point. The death of millions, consecrated in the Name of The Dark One is what gave him the soul-power needed to ascend. Xykon just has do his own massacres to fuel his own Divine Ascension if that's what he's going for. And it would be less praying to him as loyal followers, and more praying to him not to super-murder them now that he's a God. Kind of like what Hel got on the previous worlds.

[Squire Doodad]

Well, a Cleric without enough WIS to cast spells isn't a terribly effective cleric (although it can have big CHA and attract lots of followers), but it's also a cleric that spends little divine power...

Now I'm wondering who (which god) would give spells for Belkar if he had enough WIS...

Either Skadi or Tyr, depending on whether it is the fact that he is a Ranger or that he is an alleged "sexy shoeless god of war".

[Schroeswald]

Yes, it was my point; even he can tell he screwed up bad.

I sort of think he's realized that the deal, which he only intended to last 2 thousand years and for her to do better in it, might well kill her, because he can't let this world die because then he loses the first chance to end the cycle.

[Gift Jeraff]

Nope (9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html)). What's a ghast even?

Ghasts are stronger versions of ghouls. Chaotic Evil corpse eaters with a paralyzing touch, a horrible stench, and people who die from ghoul fever rise as a ghoul over night.

[Squire Doodad]

Do you guys think a low WIS Cleric would use more or less divine energy?

Presumably a low WIS Cleric would drain less and use it less often, but maybe a higher WIS Cleric would be more efficient at doing so?

[Fyraltari]

That was my point. The death of millions, consecrated in the Name of The Dark One is what gave him the soul-power needed to ascend.
Oh, huh, I don't think that's how it works. Why would people getting killed in his name send him their souls? The souls of the goblins okay, but their victims presumably continued on to their normal afterlives. always read that as the fact that he was so important to so many goblins that they worked themselves up to a year-long frenzy in his name being the important part. So many of them believed in him so much that his soul was transformed.

Xykon just has do his own massacres to fuel his own Divine Ascension if that's what he's going for. And it would be less praying to him as loyal followers, and more praying to him not to super-murder them now that he's a God. Kind of like what Hel got on the previous worlds.
That's circular. He would need worship before becoming a god to ascend. He would need to be a part of people's lives while still active on the Mortal Plane. Murderous liches are dime a dozen, if all you needed to become a god was to murder enough people there would be a whole lot more. the Dark One was a visonnary that united an entire people behind him. Xykon is leagues behind.

[Squire Doodad]

Oh, huh, I don't think that's how it works. Why would people getting killed in his name send him their souls? The souls of the goblins okay, but their victims presumably continued on to their normal afterlives. always read that as the fact that he was so important to so many goblins that they worked themselves up to a year-long frenzy in his name being the important part. So many of them believed in him so much that his soul was transformed.

That's circular. He would need worship before becoming a god to ascend. He would need to be a part of people's lives while still active on the Mortal Plane. Murderous liches are dime a dozen, if all you needed to become a god was to murder enough people there would be a whole lot more. the Dark One was a visonnary that united an entire people behind him. Xykon is leagues behind.

If anything, Redcloak would be a better candidate as a part of TDO's pantheon, probably in a Dvalin-esque "first Supreme Leader of the Goblins" sense.

[Fyraltari]

Now I'm wondering who (which god) would give spells for Belkar if he had enough WIS...

Fenrir sounds right up early Belkar's alley. "Mirder everyone! Piss on their graves!"

[The_Weirdo]

Fenrir sounds right up early Belkar's alley. "Mirder everyone! Piss on their graves!"

Now, now. For all we know, he may be a perfect gentleman most of the time and may only have said those things as regards to that one particular context. :smallbiggrin:

[Squire Doodad]

Now, now. For all we know, he may be a perfect gentleman most of the time and may only have said those things as regards to that one particular context. :smallbiggrin:

He forgot about the whole thing, had a long night partying out in Limbo the night before, and barely woke up in time to get ready for the Godsmoot. He's just trying to make it through the biggest hangover, to tell the truth.

[SilverCacaobean]

Jeez. Never thought I see Loki walking away looking like that.

[The MunchKING]

Oh, huh, I don't think that's how it works. Why would people getting killed in his name send him their souls? The souls of the goblins okay, but their victims presumably continued on to their normal afterlives. always read that as the fact that he was so important to so many goblins that they worked themselves up to a year-long frenzy in his name being the important part. So many of them believed in him so much that his soul was transformed.

It's the Dedication thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html). The big old burst of belief energy you get just from mortals dying and releasing their soul energy. The idea is that the Goblins consecrating it to the memory of the Dark One meant he got enough Devotion (and the rest of the stuff from the Goblins who worshipped him) to ascend.

Or at least that was my understanding when I read the story of him ascending.



That's circular. He would need worship before becoming a god to ascend.

Depends on if enough Devotions would do it, or if you actually needed Worship and Belief first too. But the other point is that BY massacring enough people that it would propel him to Godhood, he would strike fear into the hearts of the rest of the world. Killing Azure City isn't going to do it. He needs to massacre like most of the civilized world and put himself far above other murder happy liches.


I mean the Dark one didn't get power because a bunch of Goblins worked themselves up into a frothing frenzy over him, it was because they wiped out almost all the Humans until the Elves and Dwarves stepped in to make there be peace. (Start of Darkness)


If anything, Redcloak would be a better candidate as a part of TDO's pantheon, probably in a Dvalin-esque "first Supreme Leader of the Goblins" sense.

But if double crosses the Dark One to save the world, I'm not sure if he'll get that coveted position.

[Anansiil]

I mean he was basically trying to teach her why eating your veggies is important.

That his choosen method was to remove said veggies from her diet was perhaps a tad unwise- and her uncle stealing all her meat doesn't help either.

But ultimately?
Not admitting Loki was right.
Throwing away resources for a chance to win that stupid bet.
Not giving up on the stupid bet.
Accepting the stupid bet in the first place.
All on Hel.


Where did it say he was trying to teach Hel a lesson?
I don't remember that scene. I just thought the god of mischief was playing a clever prank on his daughter.

With worlds being temporary, any hurt would be temporary... except that they might be able to preserve this world, and that would kill Hel.

Also, what would admitting anything do? The wager was in the design of the new world. It's baked into the world, and when the world ends, the condition ends. (Stated in this strip, too)

They build a new world with new rules.

[Peelee]

Bit late here but I think it's because she went invisible for a second there and he realized he might be killing his kid.

I disagree that Loki was bound by such mortal limitations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html) that the logical outcome of the bet would surprise him (assuming that Hel would, indeed, die from this, which is a belief I do not share, but for the purposes of the argument and all).

[flyinglemur]

I, for one, have no sympathy for Hel. The only reason she is dying is because she chose to make her afterlife such a terrible place. She actively enslaves and tortures the souls she gets, which is exactly why the dwarves don't want to go to her plane. If she was kind to those souls she could have easily become one of the more powerful gods in this world. The dwarves could have ended up a pacifist culture that scorns violence, where dwarves always seek to pass away peacefully into the loving embrace of Hel. Instead she chose to torment her souls, so the dwarves have to be honorable or suffer eternally. She made her bed, now she must lie in it. If she dies then the bet is rendered null, and everyone is better off with one less evil god.

Compare that to the Dark One, whose afterlife is a great reward for his followers, at least by goblin standards.

[The_Weirdo]

I, for one, have no sympathy for Hel. The only reason she is dying is because she chose to make her afterlife such a terrible place. She actively enslaves and tortures the souls she gets, which is exactly why the dwarves don't want to go to her plane. If she was kind to those souls she could have easily become one of the more powerful gods in this world. The dwarves could have ended up a pacifist culture that scorns violence, where dwarves always seek to pass away peacefully into the loving embrace of Hel. Instead she chose to torment her souls, so the dwarves have to be honorable or suffer eternally. She made her bed, now she must lie in it. If she dies then the bet is rendered null, and everyone is better off with one less evil god.

Compare that to the Dark One, whose afterlife is a great reward for his followers, at least by goblin standards.

I do agree with you on that. And I myself don't sympathize with her. I just think she has good reason to be angry at Loki. And mind: I LIKE Loki.

[flyinglemur]

I do agree with you on that. And I myself don't sympathize with her. I just think she has good reason to be angry at Loki. And mind: I LIKE Loki.

I agree with that. Loki's definitely put Hel's life at risk.

[Fyraltari]

It's the Dedication thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html). The big old burst of belief energy you get just from mortals dying and releasing their soul energy. The idea is that the Goblins consecrating it to the memory of the Dark One meant he got enough Devotion (and the rest of the stuff from the Goblins who worshipped him) to ascend. Or at least that was my understanding when I read the story of him ascending.

Again, how could the goblins hijack that energy? In that comic this energy is clearly going to Thor not to whatever deity the bugbear followed. TDO would get the Dedication and Souls of the goblins that died in his name but why would he get those of the people they killed?





Depends on if enough Devotions would do it, or if you actually needed Worship and Belief first too. But the other point is that BY massacring enough people that it would propel him to Godhood, he would strike fear into the hearts of the rest of the world. Killing Azure City isn't going to do it. He needs to massacre like most of the civilized world and put himself far above other murder happy liches.
The Gods need four energy sources, it stands to reason that to become a good you need to gather some quantity of each. TDO had all, Xykon assuming he could somehow hijack Devotion and managed to trap souls on a large scale would still be missing two.




I mean the Dark one didn't get power because a bunch of Goblins worked themselves up into a frothing frenzy over him, it was because they wiped out almost all the Humans until the Elves and Dwarves stepped in to make there be peace. (Start of Darkness)
"Over the centuries, certain powerful elves had managed to attract enough of a group of followers that they were able to become gods themselves. [...] Now this horrific year of violence dedicated to one single man served to raise the Dark One's spirit, too."

Sounds like the important part is having many devoted followers. Murderizing a continent is simply how the goblins chose to express that devotion.

[Peelee]

I agree with that. Loki's definitely put Hel's life at risk.

I'm not so quick to believe that.

[Fyraltari]

I do agree with you on that. And I myself don't sympathize with her. I just think she has good reason to be angry at Loki. And mind: I LIKE Loki.
You do? I thought you had concluded that dwarves should turn him into a golem and torture for all eternity or something along those lines.

I'm not so quick to believe that.
She literally almost fades away in this strip.

[Grey Watcher]

If gods could change quiddities, there'd be some with of that. The fact that you don't have any strangely out-of-pantheon gods (like a western zodiac animal having the yellow aura of the norse northeners) strongly implies that you're stuck with the quiddity you were born with.

And while in theory nothing would stop a blue western god from hanging out with the yellow northeners, gods squabble. So long as it's just intra-pantheon squabbling, any resulting snarl-like manifestations are single color and easily dealt with. Inter-pantheon dealings are formal and removed because the risks are so high. If someone with a different color starts hanging out like they were family, they'll most likely start squabbling like family but the risks will be much worse.

Er, I should clarify. I meant there's nothing stopping a mortal from converting (eg, a human born in Azure City could, if they were so inclined, become a worshiper of Odin or Ereshkigal).

[Nightcanon]

Loki is the one who proposed the bet. He should be blamed.

But only a total idiot tells an evil God "it's war to the knife". Smart evil people attack from behind.

Didn't Loki propose The Bet as a way of teaching Hel a lesson in an attempt to modify her behaviour. Insofar as we can project human parenting ideals onto evil gods who are literal embodiments of death, disease, trickery etc, this was intended to be a parent revealing some wisdom to his child. He wasn't just doing this for shots and goggles.

[Fyraltari]

Didn't Loki propose The Bet as a way of teaching Hel a lesson in an attempt to modify her behaviour. Insofar as we can project human parenting ideals onto evil gods who are literal embodiments of death, disease, trickery etc, this was intended to be a parent revealing some wisdom to his child. He wasn't just doing this for shots and goggles.

We don't know that. It's a popular theory but it is just as much suppoted by the comic as the "Loki wanted to be the main dwarven evil god" theory.

[The_Weirdo]

You do? I thought you had concluded that dwarves should turn him into a golem and torture for all eternity or something along those lines.

I do. Nothing personal on what he deserves.

[Schroeswald]

Er, I should clarify. I meant there's nothing stopping a mortal from converting (eg, a human born in Azure City could, if they were so inclined, become a worshiper of Odin or Ereshkigal).

If there is there's something wrong with this system.

[Breccia]

she might not survive the story at this pace.

It takes a lot to kill a god. She'll be fine. She just needs to stop exerting herself and keep things...low key.

[Worldsong]

On TDO's ascension, I think you just need the four forms of nutrition in such large amounts that it's hard to get.

Pretty much all the goblins Believed in him and his goal. They Worshipped him as their saviour. They Dedicated themselves to his cause. And with them being naught but sources of XP in the eyes of the other gods, their Souls were free to join him.

Quite frankly I'd guess the main reason why TDO is unique with forming a new quiddity is because a) no god had bothered with goblin souls in any significant quantity, and b) if a character from a PC race reaches that level of importance some god most likely takes notice and puts themselves up as that character's patron, thus ensuring that the new godling joins that pantheon rather than splitting off into their own.

[Clistenes]

A god with the emotional maturity of a child. You would think after thousands and thousands of years she might grow up a little or learn something. Guess she is jus like some real world people I know. :smallfrown:

Thor said that Hel is sorta wrong in the head BECAUSE of the wage...she just gets too little faith and too many souls...

[Schroeswald]

It takes a lot to kill a god. She'll be fine. She just needs to stop exerting herself and keep things...low key.

I'd say centuries to a couple millennia of subpar souls and no worship (following a few centuries of absolutely nothing) is quite a lot, fading from existence looks pretty bad, and I doubt she's going to stop exerting herself barring a solution to this problem.

[Dion]

That's circular. He would need worship before becoming a god to ascend..

He just needs to find an old copy of Dragon magazine with time travel spells.

Then AFTER he ascends to be a god, he can go back in time and get the worshippers.

[mjasghar]

Technically not her last vampire - just the last one that can pull off the hail-mary dwarven vote plan. (She still has a "high priest" standing around in the moot, unable to be attacked, and who will probably be allowed to depart peacefully too.)



Marduk probably? Thor refers to the whole pantheon as "his clan." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) He also occupies a pretty prominent position in the mythology they are lifted from I believe.
The eastern pantheon in Oots is the Greek one
The western one is the Babylonian one
And not coincidentally the one with an evil top deity

[Fyraltari]

He just needs to find an old copy of Dragon magazine with time travel spells.

Then AFTER he ascends to be a god, he can go back in time and get the worshippers.
Wait, D&D has time travel spells? How do you even manage that as a GM?

The eastern pantheon in Oots is the Greek one
The western one is the Babylonian one
And not coincidentally the one with an evil top deity
Have we had any indication that Marduk is evil? And why "not coincidentally"?

[Squire Doodad]

Wait, D&D has time travel spells? How do you even manage that as a GM?

They're all locked in a small box with the words "Doctor Who RP only" inscribed in the sap of a treant.

[Aveline]

I gotta say, even though Hel is a wrongdoer, OOTS hits my "I hate my dad" bone every time.

[Cerlis]

i'm guessing this might be addressed in the last several pages but there was alot on the first page so..

i'm 95% sure that he wigs out when she exhausters herself and is THEN sad so i think it has little to do with her hating him and everything to do with the fact that she's malnourished and way more than he thought, which is made worse by the fact she's trying to destroy the world which she doesnt realize will kill her since she's not healthy enough to survive till they have new mortals again

she wants to destroy the world because she's literally dying in this one but doing so will kill her

its a loose loose unless they change how things work in THIS world which hopefully is related to how the pantheons will settle when this is all over.

maybe it will end with them changing the rules because them going 'screw it, this is our millionth planet so why not screw each other over and mess with the mortals" has literally twice over (between Hel and The Dark One) screwed over any chance of them stopping the snarl forever

[facw]

So The Giant's quote about Hel's lack of worshipers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371274-OOTS-962-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18092785#post18092785):

No one worships Hel, as was mentioned here. That means literally not one single living person, ever.
I take this to mean that it is completely impossible for any living being to do so, not simply some issues with not having clerics to tell her side of the story and grant boons to worshipers. If it were possible, there would certainly be some weirdos who would worshiper her, even if she couldn't do anything for them in this world (and probably wouldn't do anything for them in the afterlife). I think something more powerful than "she can't have clerics among the living" must be baked into the world, if The Giant's comment is right (and he would know).

That said she's clearly suffering from the lack of worship (which she complains about specifically). Beyond that she's presumably getting plenty of belief since she's an important part of other god's stories, and should be getting dedication and souls, though Thor telling the dwarves about the bet is likely causing her to get less than she expected. I'm not sure all that is enough to destroy her between worlds though, Odin clearly didn't get much worship in the previous world, but he made it mostly intact.

[The_Weirdo]

I gotta say, even though Hel is a wrongdoer, OOTS hits my "I hate my dad" bone every time.

*Hugs, if given your permission*

[Aveline]

*Hugs, if given your permission*

No permission. I'm sorry.

[The_Weirdo]

No permission. I'm sorry.

Okay, then... Please accept my sympathies.

[Leirus]

I really hope we get some kind of explanation for the bet. Seems like a terrible thing to do to your own daughter. Moreso knowing how the lack of believers can affect a god.

[Squire Doodad]

So The Giant's quote about Hel's lack of worshipers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371274-OOTS-962-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18092785#post18092785):

I take this to mean that it is completely impossible for any living being to do so, not simply some issues with not having clerics to tell her side of the story and grant boons to worshipers. If it were possible, there would certainly be some weirdos who would worshiper her, even if she couldn't do anything for them in this world (and probably wouldn't do anything for them in the afterlife). I think something more powerful than "she can't have clerics among the living" must be baked into the world, if The Giant's comment is right (and he would know).

That said she's clearly suffering from the lack of worship (which she complains about specifically). Beyond that she's presumably getting plenty of belief since she's an important part of other god's stories, and should be getting dedication and souls, though Thor telling the dwarves about the bet is likely causing her to get less than she expected. I'm not sure all that is enough to destroy her between worlds though, Odin clearly didn't get much worship in the previous world, but he made it mostly intact.

I'd say that there's some sort of vague power that makes it so that whenever someone considers making a church of Hel, with clerics and living worshipers, they suddenly get the thought interrupted and start thinking about something unrelated.

Or maybe there's something in the water.

Hel is probably getting lots of belief because she is part of plenty of scary stories parents tell their children to keep them in line. "Don't steal, because that's dishonorable and then Hel will get you!" "If you lie, Hel's going to come out at night with her death giants and pluck you right out of bed!"

[enh]

I think he is sad because he does genuinely care for her, and is coming to realise his little lesson may have had unintended results?

Maybe Loki didn't prompt the wager to teach a lesson. Maybe Loki prompted the wager to help Thor become more powerful, so that a cleric of Thor would have enough strength to draw on in order to t-

Er, nvm, the wager was made when the world was being created, and the Dark One ascended during the current world's tenure. So the wager could not have been in preparation for getting Durkon in position to talk with Redcloak. My bad.

[Riftwolf]

I'd say that there's some sort of vague power that makes it so that whenever someone considers making a church of Hel, with clerics and living worshipers, they suddenly get the thought interrupted and start thinking about something unrelated.

Or maybe there's something in the water.

Hel is probably getting lots of belief because she is part of plenty of scary stories parents tell their children to keep them in line. "Don't steal, because that's dishonorable and then Hel will get you!" "If you lie, Hel's going to come out at night with her death giants and pluck you right out of bed!"

It could be mortals, especially evil ones, go where the power is. And while worshipping a God who can't bestow spells or anything to her clerics might get some hipster cred, the Church of Fenrir, Loki, Thrym, Surtr, or any other evil God can give the clerics power.
What Hel needs is dwarves to set up prayers for the dishonoured, asking Hel to be lenient to those who died in shame. While she won't get as much worship as she did before, maybe now she'll be more grateful for it.
Of course it's very likely she'll try to get Curly to vamp Hilgya out of spite and for everything to go horribly wrong.

As for my previous ragging on Thrym... Maybe I'm being a bit harsh. I did try and script out a conversation with Thor and him about getting his act together and resuming old hobbies... But the only hobby I could really think of was 'fighting Thor', which probably wouldn't be healthy either.

[antipodeF]

Something else just occurred to me: if Hel succeeds at her plan to get the world destroyed, what would that make her?

Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. : P

[happycrow]

He just needs to find an old copy of Dragon magazine with time travel spells.

Then AFTER he ascends to be a god, he can go back in time and get the worshippers.

Or some solid illusions and super high bluff/dipl, go hang with the kuo-toa for a while....

[Anansiil]

So The Giant's quote about Hel's lack of worshipers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371274-OOTS-962-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18092785#post18092785):

I take this to mean that it is completely impossible for any living being to do so, .[...] If it were possible, there would certainly be some weirdos who would worshiper her, even if she couldn't do anything for them in this world (and probably wouldn't do anything for them in the afterlife).[...]

That said she's clearly suffering from the lack of worship (which she complains about specifically). intact.
That quote is helpful because it lines up with the words in her flashback. Hel has no choice but to forgoe worship in this incarnation of the world.
In the past, she had the normal setup. I wonder what she was like in normal circumstances?

Loki seems like a truly awful father.


I, for one, have no sympathy for Hel. The only reason she is dying is because she chose to make her afterlife such a terrible place. She actively enslaves and tortures the souls she gets, which is exactly why the dwarves don't want to go to her plane. If she was kind to those souls she could have easily become one of the more powerful gods in this world. [...]

Compare that to the Dark One, whose afterlife is a great reward for his followers, at least by goblin standards.

Ok... I'm nearly speechless, as that is fascinating. Why is Hel cruel to the dwarves? I assumed it was because she got a terrible deal, by her father.

In dnd lore, is Hel normally vicious towards souls or is that specific to OOTS?

[Mandor]

Compare and contrast Loki's reaction from Hel's outrage and stated desire to see her father DEAD, to Tarquin's reaction to Nale saying he simply wanted nothing at all from his father.

Tarquin is far more sociopathic than the God of "I Do Whatever's Best For Me".

[happycrow]

Something else just occurred to me: if Hel succeeds at her plan to get the world destroyed, what would that make her?

Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. : P

She'd need to be sympathetic for that. We've seen not a single depiction of her that wasn't nasty and unsympathetic. She got conned but that doesn't make her likeable.

[Peelee]

Loki seems like a truly awful father.
In OotS, Loki being evil may be a factor.

Ok... I'm nearly speechless, as that is fascinating. Why is Hel cruel to the dwarves? I assumed it was because she got a terrible deal, by her father.

In dnd lore, is Hel normally vicious towards souls or is that specific to OOTS?

In OotS, Hel being Evil may be a factor.

[The_Weirdo]

Compare and contrast Loki's reaction from Hel's outrage and stated desire to see her father DEAD, to Tarquin's reaction to Nale saying he simply wanted nothing at all from his father.

Tarquin is far more sociopathic than the God of "I Do Whatever's Best For Me".

Lawful vs. Chaotic. Lawful Evil people tend to be way colder - and, thus, more sociopathic - than Chaotic Evil ones.

[Ruck]

Are you serious? This is exactly what not believing someone but being unwilling to contradict them looks like.

Better put than I said it.


The deity version of a spoiled tantrum. I hope that's enough from Hel for the time being.

She's literally dying (from all available evidence). It's not a "spoiled tantrum."


I mean the reason she's so bad right now comes from her giving power to the clerics and giving up a bunch of souls for a better chance to get the 10 million.

[citation needed]

[Schroeswald]

Lawful vs. Chaotic. Lawful Evil people tend to be way colder - and, thus, more sociopathic - than Chaotic Evil ones.

Um, could that just be that Loki is someone who is more willing to care about people/gods (or maybe he's just less Evil), and not that Lawful people are somehow more sociopathic? Because I'd call Xykon much more sociopathic than Tarquin.

[The_Weirdo]

Um, could that just be that Loki is someone who is more willing to care about people/gods (or maybe he's just less Evil), and not that Lawful people are somehow more sociopathic? Because I'd call Xykon much more sociopathic than Tarquin.

I wouldn't. Xykon is (arguably) more evil than Tarquin, but what I mean by sociopathic here is uncaring or unfeeling. Xykon is sadistic. Tarquin is a dictator.

[Squire Doodad]

Um, could that just be that Loki is someone who is more willing to care about people/gods (or maybe he's just less Evil), and not that Lawful people are somehow more sociopathic? Because I'd call Xykon much more sociopathic than Tarquin.

Loki might be vaguely Neutral in comparison to most CE gods, though that's besides the point. Loki is Loki: he's a trickster, a man who rigs a scene where Thor suddenly starts kisses a cow, the sort of guy who follows his own agenda, but is also here for laughs. While he is no less dangerous than the likes of Xykon, Redcloak or Tarquin, Loki is (from what we've seen) a more entertaining person ("a better person" is not readily true, not sure how else to put it), not because of his spot in the alignment chart, but because of who he is.

For Xykon v Tarquin: Xykon kills and enjoys the killing.

Tarquin kills because it gets people out of the way quickly. (He arguably appreciates it in an academic sense though)

[Schroeswald]

[citation needed]
While there's no direct source, belief, souls and dedications are what powers her, and she just lost a bunch of her souls, she also just gave up more power to give spells to clerics, that means her power just got dropped a lot lower than normal, its quite possible that this situation would be the same, this definitely hurt her a lot.


I wouldn't. Xykon is (arguably) more evil than Tarquin, but what I mean by sociopathic here is uncaring or unfeeling. Xykon is sadistic. Tarquin is a dictator.
Profile of a sociopath (https://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html) I'd say it applies to them fairly similarly, I'd call Xykon more because he is much more sadistic, you can say Tarquin is more unfeeling but you can't say he's more sociopathic due to his Lawful nature.

[The_Weirdo]

While there's no direct source, belief, souls and dedications are what powers her, and she just lost a bunch of her souls, she also just gave up more power to give spells to clerics, that means her power just got dropped a lot lower than normal, its quite possible that this situation would be the same, this definitely hurt her a lot.


Profile of a sociopath (https://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html) I'd say it applies to them fairly similarly, I'd call Xykon more because he is much more sadistic, you can say Tarquin is more unfeeling but you can't say he's more sociopathic due to his Lawful nature.

Eh. Fair, I guess. I suppose I am very much biased against Lawful Evil.

[Peelee]

I wouldn't. Xykon is (arguably) more evil than Tarquin, but what I mean by sociopathic here is uncaring or unfeeling. Xykon is sadistic. Tarquin is a dictator.

That last sentence doesn't connect with the rest.

[The_Weirdo]

That last sentence doesn't connect with the rest.

Most (successful) dictators in fiction tend to be much more pragmatic with regards to whom they hurt and even, sometimes, why. Imitating some Caligula-like figure, naming your horse consul or giving some sort of high post to your idiot son, only gets you so far before everyone else teams up to take you out.

[Peelee]

Most (successful) dictators in fiction tend to be much more pragmatic with regards to whom they hurt and even, sometimes, why. Imitating some Caligula-like figure, naming your horse consul or giving some sort of high post to your idiot son, only gets you so far before everyone else teams up to take you out.

Regardless, if you're discussing a specific character, then trends that others may or may not follow don't necessarily relate.

[Squire Doodad]

That last sentence doesn't connect with the rest.


Most (successful) dictators in fiction tend to be much more pragmatic with regards to whom they hurt and even, sometimes, why. Imitating some Caligula-like figure, naming your horse consul or giving some sort of high post to your idiot son, only gets you so far before everyone else teams up to take you out.


Basically, it seems to be "I killed you because you put your feet on my bed" suggests an emotional trigger for the killing, while "I killed you so I can maximize my council vote next weekend" suggests a political, detached mindset (thus more in line with various views of sociopath ideologies).

[Peelee]

Basically, it seems to be "I killed you because you put your feet on my bed" suggests an emotional trigger for the killing, while "I killed you so I can maximize my council vote next weekend" suggests a political, detached mindset (thus more in line with various views of sociopath ideologies).

Yeah, but Tarquin strikes me as the kind of person who really likes his bed.

[The_Weirdo]

Yeah, but Tarquin strikes me as the kind of person who really likes his bed.

I shouldn't have to live in a world where all the good points are terrible ones.

[flyinglemur]

Why is Hel cruel to the dwarves?
I've always assumed it was just her personality. Before this world she was used to getting a lot of worship when people didn't die, even though she hadn't done anything. I think that kind of grew into a spoiled personality. She believes that she's owed worship and power, and when she took the bet she figured she wouldn't need to do any work to get dwarven souls. Combine that with some sadism, considering that in this strip alone she was planning on giving old people shingles for fun, and you get what you see. She felt free to torment her souls however she wished not realizing there would be push back, and now she's stuck.

She could change, but she doesn't feel like she should have to. She thinks those souls belong to her, so they shouldn't be resisting anyways. Just my interpretation though.

[Verdant Mage]

Hello, I'm new here, just wanted to post because I thought of a loophole in the bet that Hel made:

She is prevented from making any Clerics of the LIVING.

Things she is NOT prevented from doing:

- receiving worship of the living. (which she currently lacks)

- making clerics of the dead. (of which she currently has 1)

Thus, one thing she could do is the classic "undead rulers" trope. Direct her undead cleric to go and find a small (and preferably already in trouble) village of living people, and have her vampire visibly protect them in exchange for a small sample of blood on the regular. Emphasize the villagers' happiness, freedom, and protection. DO NOT let the vampire turn them unless they specifically ask for it, and if the population can support losing one of the living.

Basically, form an order of (Un)Holy Vampire Clerics dedicated by the goddess Hel herself to making life as good as possible for the living villagers in their chosen location, with the purpose being to encourage the living villagers to begin thankful worship of Hel.

Becoming a vampire could even become part of the basic process for induction as a Cleric, for those who wish to give their life to her service (literally). Even if they're trapped inside their own head, they could be upfront about this and spin it as some noble sacrifice for the protection of the people, which the Vampire spirit will do its best to honor. The number of villagers who may desire that wouldn't be so many to start with, but hey, the ones she has are immortal unless killed. She can slowly stock up as the village grows under her protection, until she has her own major city like The Dark One has Azure City now.

Only she'd get her city with less murder, and more enlightened self interest.

[Ruck]

While there's no direct source, belief, souls and dedications are what powers her, and she just lost a bunch of her souls, she also just gave up more power to give spells to clerics, that means her power just got dropped a lot lower than normal, its quite possible that this situation would be the same, this definitely hurt her a lot.

I mean, I don't think it's an unreasonable supposition, but it's far from certain-- this could also be the product of millennia of malnourishment now manifesting itself.


Yeah, but Tarquin strikes me as the kind of person who really likes his bed.

Co-sign. Tarquin did a number of things out of nothing more than spite and made enemies it would have been really practical not to. (Enor and Gannji being the most obvious examples.)

[happycrow]

Verdant Mage:

I am guessing Nergal might run that play, but Hel likes to give people diseases out of a sense of sadism... enlightened self-interest just isn't in her playbook that we've seen.

[RabidEel]

I, for one, have no sympathy for Hel. The only reason she is dying is because she chose to make her afterlife such a terrible place. She actively enslaves and tortures the souls she gets, which is exactly why the dwarves don't want to go to her plane. If she was kind to those souls she could have easily become one of the more powerful gods in this world. The dwarves could have ended up a pacifist culture that scorns violence, where dwarves always seek to pass away peacefully into the loving embrace of Hel. Instead she chose to torment her souls, so the dwarves have to be honorable or suffer eternally. She made her bed, now she must lie in it. If she dies then the bet is rendered null, and everyone is better off with one less evil god.

I was actually wondering about this the other day. Are the afterlives the way they are because a god makes them that way, or does the concentrated essence of millions of souls of the same alignment kind of make the place in their own image? After all, the afterlife planes themselves are made up of recycled soul-stuff. Maybe even the behavior of the gods is significantly influenced by the souls they ingest.


Compare that to the Dark One, whose afterlife is a great reward for his followers, at least by goblin standards.
That is a fairly compelling argument, but as a devil's advocate: there's Evil, and then there's Evil. Beating people up is miserable for the people being beaten up, but enjoyable for the bullies. Being sick, on the other hand, is fun for no one. It could be that the nature of TDO's plane lets the perpetrators have a great time fighting everyone, but a god of sickness's plane is just pure misery incarnate.

[Emanick]

Are you serious? This is exactly what not believing someone but being unwilling to contradict them looks like.


It does to me.

I don't really see it, but if you both do, fair enough. OOTS faces aren't the most expressive, and as an autistic person, I sometimes miss nuances in people's facial expressions.

[Psychronia]

My guess was that "teach Hel a lesson" was the excuse he would tell people. But his real goal was to become the default Evil/Chaos God for the Dwarves as well. He was hoping to get a Hylgia type who would lead all the Chaotics and such to him for the "alternate argument Honor" and he'd rake in all the Chaotic Dwarves. But a combination of strong cultural pressure to be Lawful and a lack of a Hylgia-type to lead them, means he was stuck with whatever slipped through the cracks. Which because he had Clerics and spread throughout the Human lands, was merely a minor setback to him rather than the big deal it was to Hel.

It's part of a theory that he also influenced Odin to go bonkers, and Thor to be stuck trying to be Lawful to protect the Dwarves so that everyone close to him in power would be too distracted by their own problems to stop him from doing even MORE shenanigans.

Okay, I could buy that. Teaching his daughter a lesson seems like a pretty short-sighted and outright harmful approach, but muscling in as an "out" to the very system he started(assuming Hilgya's right about how it works) sounds very much like a Loki con. Smokescreen for other schemes too. The counterargument I would make for this is that if this was part of Loki's con, there should definitely have been more people like Hilgya than what we've seen. He would definitely have capitalized on it more if this was his goal.

Then again, maybe there is a faction of dwarves like that and we just don't know. I might also be adding in too much of Loki Classic interpretation to the Giant's version. The thing is, Classic Loki is a trickster, yes. But he's also renown as the problem solver. If you wanna kill something, send Thor. If you want to fix a problem, send Loki.
Because of this, I tend to hope that Loki has some big-picture goal where everyone wins. Like, somehow this is meant to help with the Snarl, or restore Odin. Something like that.



I, for one, have no sympathy for Hel. The only reason she is dying is because she chose to make her afterlife such a terrible place. She actively enslaves and tortures the souls she gets, which is exactly why the dwarves don't want to go to her plane. If she was kind to those souls she could have easily become one of the more powerful gods in this world. The dwarves could have ended up a pacifist culture that scorns violence, where dwarves always seek to pass away peacefully into the loving embrace of Hel. Instead she chose to torment her souls, so the dwarves have to be honorable or suffer eternally. She made her bed, now she must lie in it. If she dies then the bet is rendered null, and everyone is better off with one less evil god.

Compare that to the Dark One, whose afterlife is a great reward for his followers, at least by goblin standards.

That...is a good point. Y'know, in Norse Myth Classic, it's more like Valhalla was a special case for valiant warriors. Helheim the world was just where the non-warriors would go, and it was basically a carbon copy of the mortal world with the caveat that dead people are static and incapable of change, so if you die a scumbag, you'll be stuck like that forever. If you die a baker or something, you're just an eternal baker, which might've been the plan in life anyway.
Not really such a raw deal, so Hel only has her own sadism to blame here.


Hello, I'm new here, just wanted to post because I thought of a loophole in the bet that Hel made (...) one thing she could do is the classic "undead rulers" trope.

A decent solution, but two main issues. Firstly, Hel refuses to change, and that's been her problem the whole time. She's arrogant, even (or perhaps especially) in her current state.
Second, that sounds like a dope setup for a campaign, which means some PC/Paladin murderhoboes are inevitably going to appear and kill everyone for XP. That was sorta her entire problem with creating undead clerics.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

That last panel made me realize that I ship Hel/Thrym in an "adorable elderly couple" kind of way.

[Particle_Man]

If Hel does die I assume Curly and the Frontarch don’t get new spells but can cast what was previously granted at dusk. Does the Frontarch also lose her protection at the Godsmoot? Also, I wonder what Curly would do without Hel?