DM's Guild's Ruins of Hisari disappointments (spoilers ahoy)

[Segev]

The non-spoiler review first, for all of you who hover over for previews: I'm disappointed by this module by the DM's Guild. The Thing that necessitated the anti-Yuan-ti barrier is nifty, but the reason the barrier was put in place and the majority of the plot behind it is very unsatisfying to me. It feels more-of-the-samey with the just-played Tomb of Annihilation, and despite being challenging enough for the levels, underwhelming compared to having just beaten the big plot of the Tomb. (To be fair, it might serve as a breather.) But it feels opposite of what's advertised by the external knowledge one has going in.




Okay, now for the spoilery bits.



The Yuan-ti of Hisari used the 5e Beholder thing about dreaming other Beholders into existence to torture a Beholder into creating a snake-beholder that's pretty cool. It slaughtered its "parent" and hunts yuan-ti down. The Yuan-ti gods - out of some weird mercy - put the antipathy field around Hisari to keep the snake-folk from returning and being eaten.

But somehow, it's a hollow 3D shell, and so deep within the fallen temples are trapped Yuan-ti who serve as the primary movers of this plot. They've got an elaborate ploy to lure adventurers in, turn them into Malisons, and then use them to break free of the barrier by becoming human again.

The transformations back and forth have some interesting ideas behind them, but the implementation, and the choice to use it here, is disappointing. Having the prime antagonists and allies of the late-game portion of this module be the very creatures that are hedged away from it feels bait-and-switchy. Worse, the transformation into Malisons is ill-defined: do they keep their class levels? Feats? Stat-ups? Or are they entirely overwritten? There's no save, either; it's box-text transformation. Not a choice, not anything they can resist.

There's also no explanation for why the transformation leaves them with the human emotions they require to enact the later detransformation ritual.


Does this seem like I'm nitpicking too much? I've seen a lot of praise for this module on various review sites for Tomb of Annihilation, which is why how lame it seems to me was so surprising as well as disappointing. It's only $5, so not a huge loss, but still. I think I got one idea out of it that's worth using: the snake-beholder-thing.

Maybe I can repurpose the ritual transformation and the emotional rules to another use; there's a bit before the Tomb of the Nine Gods in ToA that has the possibility of turning PCs into pureblood yuan-ti; having some possible trials to make them instead malisons if they consent might be interesting.

But what I was really hoping for was something truly inspired for what created the antipathy field, and which has reason to keep the yuan-ti out. Something which has either moved in and populated it with its own minions, or which has allowed non-yuan-ti monsters to creep in and set up their own lairs.

Also, it'd be nice if it was more in the power level of levels 5-9, so it's explorable pre-Omu in Tomb of Annihilation. Maybe the snake-beholder-thing is a possibility for the boss monster, still (though it's too powerful, really, for levels 5-9 to deal with), but anything I can think of wouldn't have reason to banish the yuan-ti rather than enslave them. (Aboleth was my first thought, actually, though immediately rejected for that exact reason.)

Have any of you had experience running this module? Was it fun? Did you have other ideas about what could lurk in the ruins of Hisari?

I'd been thinking of running the HIdden Shrine of Tamochan, but I'm having trouble justifying it as something that really "fits" the lore of ex-Yuan-ti city and why it would be responsible for the antipathy field. Plus, the mroe I've read reviews and advice columns, the more I've come to appreciate the difference between "challenge" dungeons and "regular play" dungeons, so I'm not sure that one is really "fun" when run in regular play.

[kebusmaximus]

I'm not familiar with Ruins of Hisari, but from reading this site:

https://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/

I'm not very optimistic about something from dm's guild.

[Segev]

I'm not familiar with Ruins of Hisari, but from reading this site:

https://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/

I'm not very optimistic about something from dm's guild.

Does it say somewhere that any of those are DM's Guild products? Because I don't see it on the covers pictured, nor in the text. I may have missed it, though.

Not saying you're necessarily wrong about DM's Guild products (I've bought two and been meh on them both, though being less than $5 does make me wonder if I got what I paid for), but I'm not sure the linked article really backs up the point.

[bryce0lynch]

A lot of adventures are dreck, OSR, 5e, or otherwise.

On DMsGuild you might try searching for Remply Farr's Everyone plows the graveyard farm.
You can also check out works by Kelsey Dionne, especially the later ones, like Masque of Worms.
My blog, tenfootpole, has a 5e filter, nut you should prepare, just like my mom, to be disappointed.

Ratings/reviews are not to be trusted. People will give 5 stars to anything. Yes, I realize the contradiction of me saying this.

[kebusmaximus]

Oh wow, hi! Speak of the devil.


Does it say somewhere that any of those are DM's Guild products? Because I don't see it on the covers pictured, nor in the text. I may have missed it, though.

At the bottom of each review there's a link to buy the module; almost all of them are from drivethrurpg, which runs dmsguild.

[Grod_The_Giant]

At the bottom of each review there's a link to buy module; almost all of them are from drivethrurpg, which runs dmsguild.
Not entirely the same tho. DM's Guild takes a much bigger cut, but lets you use a lot more copyrighted material.

[Segev]

While I appreciate the replies so far, I do want to focus a bit more on either this module in particular, or on alternative ideas for using its elements, or on Hisari itself and better things to put in it.

I have an Archeaologist Background dwarven ranger in my party with a map that happens to lead to Hisari. Like I said, I'd originally planned to put the Hidden Shrine of Tamochan there, but I'm less confident it would be ideal, and I've failed to come up with a satisfactory reason it would keep the Yuan-ti out of their own city. So I'm looking for ideas, either to salvage this or to make something new and interesting. Or even just to improve the connection of the Hidden Shrine or another dungeon to Hisari and its snakeman-prohibition-field.

[JackPhoenix]

Couatl. They are good, and while they do have reasons to be hostile to Yuan-ti, they won't necessarily go for extermination. They also tend to protect certain places.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I don't have much input on this adventure but having just run Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan I'm not sure how effective it would be for what you're looking for. Most of the traps are designed simply to waste time and keep the party held in the dangerous parts of the temple for a long time hoping to exhaust them over a long period of time. It wasn't very effective in slowing down the party that I had run through it and much of the issues you run into can actually be avoided by only engaging with obstacles that are blocking your progress entirely.

That's assuming they manage to avoid the most heinous traps, which instead of being simple time wasters can just take a character out of the game with little recourse. It would be a lot of work to make it very interesting, it's a pretty boring adventure in my opinion.

[Segev]

I don't have much input on this adventure but having just run Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan I'm not sure how effective it would be for what you're looking for. Most of the traps are designed simply to waste time and keep the party held in the dangerous parts of the temple for a long time hoping to exhaust them over a long period of time. It wasn't very effective in slowing down the party that I had run through it and much of the issues you run into can actually be avoided by only engaging with obstacles that are blocking your progress entirely.

That's assuming they manage to avoid the most heinous traps, which instead of being simple time wasters can just take a character out of the game with little recourse. It would be a lot of work to make it very interesting, it's a pretty boring adventure in my opinion.

Thanks for the advice. I was afraid of that, so I’ll definitely keep looking for something else to do with it.

[Brookshw]

Not entirely the same tho. DM's Guild takes a much bigger cut, but lets you use a lot more copyrighted material.

The DM's Guild is a partnership venture of DriveThru and WoTC, isn't it? At least I had thought DriveThru was an independent company?

[Keravath]

I'm not familiar with Ruins of Hisari, but from reading this site:

https://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/

I'm not very optimistic about something from dm's guild.

Out of the modules reviewed on that site, only one of them is on DMsGuild and the poster considers it one of the best. As always with third party products, buyer beware and read the reviews and comments but I don't think DMsGuild and DriveThruRPG are exactly the same even though they may be run by the same corporate entity. I wouldn't base any general opinion on DMsGuild content on the content of the link posted above.

In general, the quality of 3rd party content varies. However, some of the ToA related modules are the product of the so called Guild Adept program so the quality may be a bit higher than average. I've played Return of the Lizard King, Ruins of Matolo and Pyramid of the Moon from Encounters in the Jungle of Chult as part of a ToA play through. All of them were pretty reasonable when we played them and were easily added to the Chult jungle portion of ToA which is sandboxy but has issues with travel time through the jungle, limited magic item rewards, and an over reliance on random encounters for XP. There is nice content spread around in ToA but most of it is at the edges of Chult which means that it is almost impossible to incorporate a significant fraction while still hitting the time line to solve the Death Curse.

Unfortunately, I haven't played Ruins of Hisari myself but I have a few comments.


1) The overall progression and plot line of the module seems ok.
2) I agree that forcing the characters to turn into Malisons seems contrived and railroady since the characters can't do anything to prevent it. However, appendix B apparently covers the transformation. From the sounds of the text, the characters lose their class and levels becoming Malisons and need to complete the ritual to be restored to their former selves. I would guess that the entire exploration section is balanced around the much weaker malisons.

However, I think the transformation is required as part of THIS specific plot line for several reasons.

- as Malisons they are now yuan-ti, are affected by the Antipathy effect and can not leave either. In order to leave they are forced to assist the yuan-ti whether they want to or not. This aspect gets around a lot of role playing issues with characters who would NEVER help yuan-ti under any circumstances (and there are probably a lot of them). This is why the characters can't really be given a choice about the transformation. Few if any would ever help the yuan-ti voluntarily.
- the Antipathy effect is something bestowed by the yuan-ti gods. Why they would do this I don't know since I am not sure they would really care that much about the yuan-ti or their problems, especially Dendar who wants to destroy the world anyway. In any case, since the snake beholder is part yuan-ti it can't leave the area either. However, the risk of encountering this nasty creature is probably sufficient to prevent mass settlement by non yuan-ti who are unaffected by the Antipathy.

3) The justification of the role of the players in the ritual and the need for their emotions is a bit strange but whatever.

I think if I was running it I would have the transformation be described as some sort of ritual mass polymorph that doesn't require concentration facilitated by the yuan-ti patron who is assisting in enabling the warlocks to escape this confinement. Make sure that the characters have been exposed to substances they touch or consume along the way whose cumulative effect is to prevent a saving throw against this magic. I would also add some foreshadowing so that the players might have an idea something weird might be going on but no idea what. Keep in mind that the malisons that replace the characters are MUCH MUCH weaker than the level 11-16 characters playing the module. The reason for the transformation is not to make them more effective but to force the characters into a position where they have to aid the yuan-ti or they will never escape.

One of the aspects of polymorph is that the characters retain their "alignment and personality" which could be interpreted to mean their emotions and memories. Thus they are physically yuan-ti, are limited by the yuan-ti mental stats but essentially retain their human element in terms of their alignment and personality. As a result, they are both affected by the Antipathy but are also capable of contributing parts of their humanity to the ritual.

At least that is probably how I would spin it for the players. In addition, since the transformation is due to a magical polymorph effect powered by the warlock's patron directly you can probably work around objections about saves and other issues.

After the transformation, the rest of the module appears pretty linear and the party gets restored at the end as part of the ritual (at which point I expect, depending on the alignment and leanings of the characters, some may want to take revenge on the yuan-ti for their actions, especially since Snake Eyes is defeated at this point and the characters are restored to their full power and capability) ... so you might want to be on the look out for how the encounter winds up.

[Segev]

Yeah, the reason for the antipathy field provided is one of the big issues with the module, in my mind.

Snake Eyes should, if anything, be something the gods of the Yuan-ti want spreading out into the world.

And, while the snake beholder idea is kind-of cool, I still find the whole notion that the antipathy field conceals...more yuan-ti...to be a let-down.

Your point about the malissons being weaker than the level 11+ characters that're supposedly the target audience for this is a good one. I wonder if the pre-transformation elements are really at level 11+ CR, or if this would be something that could be done equally well by level 5-8 characters, especially with the malisson transformation.

There's some interesting parallel between that and the pureblood transfomration that can occur in Omu if the PCs are working with the traitorous yuan-ti priestess. Not sure how to quite use that, though.

I may just have to come up with a cool group to have kicked the Yuan-ti out, then backwards-invent a reason why they took Hisari from them with that antipathy field.