5e Tome of Battle: Brainstorming. Now with a class!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Heya, all. Fresh off the heels of my psionics rewrite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593739-Psionics-Reloaded-the-Psion-and-Psychic-Warrior-ALL-DISCIPLINES-NOW-COMPLETE-(PEACH)), I'm considering tackling another subsystem: the Tome of Battle. For those who don't know, the ToB was... well, depending on your point of view, it was either a way to give martial characters awesome special moves that kept up better with spells, or it was anime garbage that turned fighters into wizards. Regardless, the book featured "maneuvers," sorted into schools and divided into nine levels like spells, but useable (roughly) per-encounter and without specific slot levels. I'm going to try and stick fairly closely to the existing systems and balance maneuvers as if they were melee-ranged spells of a corresponding level, rather than try to build an entirely new mechanic into the now much narrow gap between spellcasters and martials. (This'll be for people who want more complicated fighter types, not a matter of party balance).



The Martial Adept
Those who devote their lives to studying some aspect of the Sublime Way-- the secret lore that teaches a fighter how to meld their inner strength, training, and discipline into the perfect weapon-- are known as Martial Adepts. All are skilled in personal combat, but they rely on perception, learning, and willpower, in addition to pure physical aptitude for battle. Martial adepts seek to fuse tangible physical prowess with utmost control of the mind and spirit.

Straddling the line between the purely mundane and the openly magical, the techniques of the Sublime Way are unique, representing small moments of clarity, self-knowledge, piety, or perfection. Whether by tapping into a cosmic balance, inner ki, or raw physical ability, Martial Adepts can achieve spectacular results.

HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: 1d8 per Martial Adept level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per level after 1st

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: Light and medium armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution
Skills: Choose two skills from Acrobatics, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, and Survival

EQUIPMENT

(a) scalemail or (b) leather armor
(a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial weapons
(a) a longbow and 20 arrows or (b) four javelins
(a) a dungeoneer's pack or (b) an explorer's pack




Level
Proficiency Bonus
Special
Focus Points
Forms Known
Maneuvers Known
Highest Level Maneuver


1
+2
Sublime Path, Maneuvers
4
4
2
1st


2
+2
Path Feature
6
4
3
1st


3
+2

14
4
4
2nd


4
+2
Ability Score Increase
16
5
5
2nd


5
+3
By the Sword
16
5
6
3rd


6
+3
Path Feature
20
5
7
3rd


7
+3
--
26
5
8
4th


8
+3
Ability Score Increase
32
5
9
4th


9
+4
--
42
5
10
5th


10
+4
Indomitable Stance
43
6
11
5th


11
+4
--
49
6
12
6th


12
+4
Ability Score Increase
49
6
12
6th


13
+5
--
59
6
13
7th


14
+5
Path Feature
59
6
13
7th


15
+5
--
59
6
14
8th


16
+5
Ability Score Increase
59
6
14
8th


17
+6
--
71
6
15
9th


18
+6
Pioneering Form
78
6
15
9th


19
+6
Ability Score Increase
87
6
15
9th


20
+6
Double Stance
97
6
15
9th



Maneuvers: The various techniques of the Sublime Way are known as maneuvers. To an outsider, maneuvers appear similar to spells—both are discreet practices for achieving a single incredible result. The action required to initiate a maneuver is listed in the maneuver’s description. Maneuvers which are specified as requiring a weapon cannot be used unless you are currently wielding a weapon of that type. The range of a maneuver is either personal, or equal to the reach or range of your currently wielded weapon.

Forms: At first level, you select four Forms from the schools available to you. These simple maneuvers may be used at will, without expending Focus Points.

Focus Points: Martial Adepts possess a reserve of inner strength and discipline known as Focus Points. You regain all expended Focus Points after completing a long rest. To initiate a maneuver, you must expend a number of Focus Points based on the maneuver’s level:



Maneuver Level
Point Cost


1st
2


2nd
3


3rd
5


4th
6


5th
7


6th
9


7th
10


8th
11


9th
13



Maneuvers of 6th level and higher are particularly taxing to initiate. Regardless of how many Focus Points you currently have, after using a maneuver of 6th level of above you cannot use another until you have completed a short rest.

Maneuvers Known: At first level, you know two maneuvers of your choice from the schools available to you. The Maneuvers Known column of the Martial Adept table shows when you learn more maneuvers of your choice. Each of these maneuvers must be of a level you can use, as shown in the Highest Level Maneuver column.

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the maneuvers you know with another from the schools available to you, which also much be of a level you can use.

Initiating Ability: Which ability score you use to determine the save DC of your maneuvers depends on your Path. Crusaders use Charisma, Swordsages use Wisdom, and Warblades use Intelligence. The save DC is 8 + your proficiency bonus + the specified ability modifier.

Sublime Path: There are many different paths to understanding the Sublime Way. At first level, select one of three paths to follow: the Path of the Crusader, Path of the Swordsage, or Path of the Warblade. Your Path determines what schools of maneuver you can learn, and grants additional abilities at 2nd, 5th, and 14th level.

By the Sword: Beginning at 5th level, the thrill of battle lends you strength. When you use one of your Forms during combat, you gain one Focus Point. The maximum number of Focus Points you can have at one time is equal to the value given in the table above, plus the sum of your Proficiency Bonus and your Initiating Ability modifier. The combat must be of at least Easy difficulty in order for this ability to trigger. After completing a long rest, all points generated from this ability are lost.

Beginning at 11th level, you gain two Focus Points when you use a Form. This increases to three Focus Points at 17th level.

Indomitable Stance: Beginning at 10th level, if you fail a concentration save to maintain a stance, you may choose to succeed instead. Once you have done so, you cannot use this ability again until you have completed a long or short rest.

Pioneering Form: Beginning at 18th level, you may choose one maneuver you know of 2nd level of lower. It now can be used as a Form—it is always initiated at 2nd level, costs no Focus Points, and triggers your By the Sword ability.

Double Stance: Beginning at 20th level, you may concentrate on two effects simultaneously. You only make one concentration save for both effects; if you fail, both effects end.


Path of the Crusader
Maneuvers: Crusaders can learn forms and maneuvers from the Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven schools.

Crusader Training: Beginning at 2nd level, you gain proficiency in heavy armor. In addition, your hit point maximum increases by 2, and again by 1 whenever you gain a new level in this class.

Steely Resolve: Beginning at 6th level, when you take hit point damage, you may use your reaction to gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of damage you just took plus your Charisma modifier. These hit points expire at the end of your next turn.

Furious Counterstroke: Beginning at 14th level, you gain a bonus to weapon damage equal to one-fifth your temporary hit points from your Steely Resolve feature.


Path of the Swordsage
Maneuvers: Swordsages can learn forms and maneuvers from the Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw schools.

Discipline Focus: Beginning at 2nd level, pick one of the five disciplines that Swordsages can learn maneuvers from. You learn one maneuver from that school. At 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level, you learn one additional maneuver from your chosen school. These maneuvers don’t count against your number of maneuvers known.

Quick to Act: Beginning at 6th level, you gain a bonus to initiative checks equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Evasion: Beginning at 14th level, you gain Evasion, as the Rogue class feature


Path of the Warblade
Maneuvers: Warblades can learn forms and maneuvers from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven schools.

Fighting Style: Beginning at 2nd level, you gain one of the following Fighting Styles: Defense, Dueling, Mariner, Protection, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Battle Cunning: Beginning at 6th level, when you make a weapon attack with advantage, you gain a bonus to the damage equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Battle Ardor: Beginning at 14th level, you gain immunity to being charmed or frightened.



Scorching Sweep
Desert Wind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

Your sword leaves trails of fire in its wake. Up to three adjacent foes must make Dexterity saves or take 1d8 fire damage.

At 5th level, and again at 11th and 17th level, the damage increases by 1d8.

Sirocco Step
Desert Wind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You burst into motion with blinding speed. You may move up to your speed and make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Warding Blow
Devoted Spirit Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike at an enemy, forcing them away from your charges. Make a melee weapon attack and choose one ally within your reach. If it hits, it deals damage as normal. Hit or miss, until the beginning of your next turn, attacks against the chosen ally have disadvantage as long as the ally remains within yout reach.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 radiant damage. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Holy Smite
Devoted Spirit Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike a mighty blow against evil. Make a weapon attack. If you hit, it deals damage as normal, and if your target is an undead or fiend, they take additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 radiant damage regardless of the target’s type. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Crystalline Perfection
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You close your mind to all distractions. Make a weapon attack, ignoring all sources of advantage and disadvantage. If it hits, it deals damage as normal.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Discordant Strike
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike at the perfect moment to disrupt your foe’s rhythm. Make a weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and the next attack against the target has advantage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Flowing Steel
Iron Heart Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike with fluid grace, grazing a second foe before your first feels the blow. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, the target is damaged as normal, and you may compare the result of your attack roll to a second target within reach. If the attack would also hit them, they take damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, whichever you used to make the initial attack.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon to each target. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Power Attack
Iron Heart Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You throw caution to the wind and strike with all your strength. Make a melee weapon attack, without adding your proficiency bonus. If you hit, you deal additional damage equal to twice your proficiency bonus.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Flowing Defense
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: 1 round

You flow from blow to parry in a smooth movement. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, the next attack against you has disadvantage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon to each target. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Rounding Kata
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You step and strike, step and strike in a perfect rhythm. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, you may move 5ft without provoking opportunity attacks, and your target is moved 5ft in a direction of your choice.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon, and the distances increase by 5ft. This damage increases by 1d8 and distances by another 5ft at 11th and 17th level.

Shrouded Stab
Shadow Hand Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike and vanish, fading into the shadows. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and you may move up to 10ft without provoking opportunity attacks.

Beginning at 5th level, this attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. THis damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Backstab
Shadow Hand Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You take advantage of an ally’s movements to hide your own. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and if your target has another enemy adjacent to it, you deal additional damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Landslide Tackle
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike you foe with the full weight of your body. Make a melee weapon attack using your unarmed strike. For the purposes of this attack, it counts as having a damage die of 1d8. If you hit, the target is pushed 10ft.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 bludgeoning damage, and pushes your target an additional 5ft. This damage increases by 1d8 and the distance by 5ft at 11th and 17th level.

Strength of Stone
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: 1 round

You channel the unyielding strength of the mountains. Until the end of your next turn, you have resistance to all damage.

Pack Tactics
Tiger Claw Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You know how to strike as one with your comrades. Make a melee weapon attack. If one of your allies is adjacent to your target, you have advantage on the attack. If you hit, you deal normal damage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Fangs of the Wolf
Tiger Claw Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Light Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You attack in a blinding flurry of speed. Make a melee weapon attack using a light weapon. If it hits, it deals normal damage, and you may use a bonus action to make a second melee weapon attack with it, also dealing normal damage.

At 5th level, your first attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Inspiring Attack
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You charge into the fray, cheering your allies by your example. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals normal damage. Hit or miss, one ally within 30ft gains may move up to half their speed without provoking opportunity attacks.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Rally the Troops
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

Your exhort your allies to new heights. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals normal damage, and one ally within 30ft gains gains temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier. These temporary hit points expire at the beginning of your next turn.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon, and grants an additional 1d8 temporary hit points. The damage and temporary hit points both increase by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

[Justin Sane]

Warlock style - if anything, because it gets rid of the whole "How come you can't do that thing again? Ran out of sword?" conundrum.

Edit: that said, Stances using Concentration is interesting - they'd need a non-trivial activation cost if they're to be used at-will, but the idea of a warrior being unable to maintain a Stance when overwhelmed by foes is iconic enough to merit representation (and gives design space for a berzerker-like initiator, who'd actually gain bonuses when his concentration got broken).

[Waazraath]

Warlock style, definitely. A concentration like mechanic for stances seems terrible imo; you don't want this new classes to resemble a spellcaster afaic, and using sorcerer mechanics does just that.

[Segev]

Heya, all. Fresh off the heels of my psionics rewrite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593739-Psionics-Reloaded-the-Psion-and-Psychic-Warrior-ALL-DISCIPLINES-NOW-COMPLETE-(PEACH)), I'm considering tackling another subsystem: the Tome of Battle. For those who don't know, the ToB was... well, depending on your point of view, it was either a way to give martial characters awesome special moves that kept up better with spells, or it was {scrubbed} garbage that turned fighters into wizards. Regardless, the book featured "maneuvers," sorted into schools and divided into nine levels like spells, but useable (roughly) per-encounter and without specific slot levels.

So.

I'm going to try and stick fairly closely to the existing systems and balance maneuvers as if they were melee-ranged spells of a corresponding level, rather than try to build an entirely new mechanic into the now much narrow gap between spellcasters and martials. (This'll be for people who want more complicated fighter types, not a matter of party balance). With that said, what sort of a paradigm do you think would work best?

Sorcerer style, with many slots of different levels refreshing on a long rest, and stances working like Concentration sells.
Warlock style, with few slots of max level refreshing on a short rest, and stances working like Invocations.
Hybrid style, with more slots of max level refreshing on a long rest, and stances working like...uh, either/or.


5e HAS a subsystem in place to build martial adepts around: the Battle Master Fighter and his Superiority Die.

I think the best way to approach a ToB-like thing for 5e would be to expand this into as functional a subsystem as spellcasting is, with subclass archetypes that use Superiority Dice and lists of maneuvers (possibly common maneuvers, with class lists that give specific access the way, again, spells work).

If you're feeling really ambitious, you might explore tying superiority dice and hit-dice-rolled-at-short-rests together somehow, but that's probably not necessary as you can just use the existing Battle Master mechanics for recharging them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Warlock style - if anything, because it gets rid of the whole "How come you can't do that thing again? Ran out of sword?" conundrum.
My concern is that Warlock style would be more "ran out of sword," what with the sharply limited slots.


5e HAS a subsystem in place to build martial adepts around: the Battle Master Fighter and his Superiority Die.
I have to disagree on that. Superiority Dice are a fun mechanic, don't get me wrong, but they're ultimately about augmenting basic attacks in small ways, usually by adding a number somewhere. Having them be fuel for active abilities like "grab a dude and throw him across the battlefield" or "leap over a dude and land a super-strong attack from behind" seems like it'd get weird-- there are too many maneuvers that would wind up "expend a die to do this thing that does not involve that die at all" to feel good.

[Sigreid]

What about basically using the optional spell point system but calling them fatigue points so they dont cross with spell casting. You aren't running out of sword, you're running out of your heroic stamina reaerves.

[Dienekes]

Honestly, I think an important part of getting the feel of ToB is for the attacks to refresh in combat, which makes all the options lined up a bit of a miss for me.

Of the options presented, I'd have to say Warlock. I like the idea of Concentration being Stances. But to do it I think the whole Concentration mechanic would have to be retooled or every ToB class you create would have to have some method of mitigating the potential loss of your Stance since all these classes are expecting to be hit a lot. Which just seems like inelegant design. Or at least it was when I tried it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What about basically using the optional spell point system but calling them fatigue points so they dont cross with spell casting. You aren't running out of sword, you're running out of your heroic stamina reaerves.
...I was about to dismiss that, but it might be a solid way to low-key differentiate the two. Spell points are also much more amiable to being divided up in weird ways than spell slots...


Honestly, I think an important part of getting the feel of ToB is for the attacks to refresh in combat, which makes all the options lined up a bit of a miss for me.

Of the options presented, I'd have to say Warlock. I like the idea of Concentration being Stances. But to do it I think the whole Concentration mechanic would have to be retooled or every ToB class you create would have to have some method of mitigating the potential loss of your Stance since all these classes are expecting to be hit a lot. Which just seems like inelegant design. Or at least it was when I tried it.
I feel that. At the same time, I think the expending/retrieving maneuvers was the biggest conceptual sticking point-- something like "fatigue points" is easy to swallow, but "why can't I use Mountain Hammer twice in a row?" is harder to rationalize as anything but gamist.

------------

Okay, here are my current thoughts:

There will be one Martial Adept class, with Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade as subclasses.
The basic mechanic will be "stamina points," a la spell points. The class will get, oh... 75% of the daily points that a full caster does, and no cantrip-equivalent-- their at-will fallback will be basic weapon attacks.
Each subclass will have its own way of picking up a small trickle of points mid-combat.
Stances will work be broken by being knocked prone or grappled, rather than damaged, and you'll be able to assume one as a reaction when you roll initiative or begin your turn.

[Waazraath]

Honestly, I think an important part of getting the feel of ToB is for the attacks to refresh in combat, which makes all the options lined up a bit of a miss for me.


But this was only really the case for the warblade... the crusader had a weird random mechanic in which you couldn't controll which maneuvers you had access to, and the swordsage lacked a recovery mechanic aside from 'spend a turn to regain 1 maneuver' - (unless you used a specific feat, and a rather dubious interpretation of it).

[Sharur]

I like this idea a lot, so I'd like to contribute a few thoughts.

1) Base class: You mentioned the sorcerer and warlock as ideas to base the styles off of, but I'd like to offer the Monk as another alternative. Rather than a large number of spell slots (like a sorcerer) or a small number of powerful spell slots, like a warlock, I'd go with a recharging pool of points, like the monk. Flurry of Blows is essentially already a type of maneuver in this edition, though I quite like idea of gaining resources through in combat actions.

2) Stances: I quite liked the stances in the original Tome-of-Battle. Passive effects seem to mesh well with martial characters. There are some "stance-like" features, that I bring up for possible idea mining:

2A) Trade-off: Like a Barbarian's Reckless Attack feature (essentially, Barbarians get a "Reckless Stance").

2B) Activated & Unlimited: Like the "Tunnel Fighter" fighting style which trades a bonus action for a round of "stance". Potentially trade an action or bonus action for multiple rounds seems better though (possiblely Con bonus or Wis bonus, depending on how you want to flavor it).

2C) Activated & Resource Limited: Like a Barbarian's Rage (which doesn't seem to suffer from "why can't you sword anymore" questions.

2D) Situational: When your actions or situation meets some requirement, you get a benefit. For example, the Mobile feat (if you attack a creature, they can't take opertunity attacks against you that round). Or perhaps a "Tunnel Fighter" stance that activates when one doesn't move that turn. This has a "designer" advantage that stances can be "strengthened" for higher levels by widening the requirements rather than strengthening the benefit.

[Segev]

I have to disagree on that. Superiority Dice are a fun mechanic, don't get me wrong, but they're ultimately about augmenting basic attacks in small ways, usually by adding a number somewhere. Having them be fuel for active abilities like "grab a dude and throw him across the battlefield" or "leap over a dude and land a super-strong attack from behind" seems like it'd get weird-- there are too many maneuvers that would wind up "expend a die to do this thing that does not involve that die at all" to feel good.I think it'd be a very rare Maneuver that didn't involve an attack roll or ability check in some way. Adding the superiority die to the attack roll or ability check would suffice.


Honestly, I think an important part of getting the feel of ToB is for the attacks to refresh in combat, which makes all the options lined up a bit of a miss for me.This, however, is a good point. I don't think superiority dice refresh in combat as a general rule. That said, you could change that by adding a maneuver that actively returns them when used. This would be a bit of a tax on the Battle Master, sadly.


If, however, you really want to capture ToB...just use its mechanics. There's nothing incompatible with 5e in the basic structure of readying and expending maneuvers that recover between combats, nor with special techniques to recover them in combat. You could even separate between-battle recovery and short rest recovery by having it be that every time you roll initiative, you roll a d6 for each currently-expended maneuver, and recover each that rolls a 5 or a 6. Then you recover them all at a short rest.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If, however, you really want to capture ToB...just use its mechanics. There's nothing incompatible with 5e in the basic structure of readying and expending maneuvers that recover between combats, nor with special techniques to recover them in combat. You could even separate between-battle recovery and short rest recovery by having it be that every time you roll initiative, you roll a d6 for each currently-expended maneuver, and recover each that rolls a 5 or a 6. Then you recover them all at a short rest.
You're right; I could do that pretty literally. My concern is less about the process itself than it is about intraparty balance. ToB characters in 3.5 were flat step up normal martial characters, but that was fine because casters were three or more steps up from your basic martial. There was room to staple a whole new powerful mechanic onto them. 5e (to its credit) doesn't have that kind of power gap-- I'm going to be working off the Swords Bard and its ilk as a base, not the Fighter.

[Sigreid]

I do have one question. I thought most of the complaints about martial power was about the other 2 pillars, not so much combat. Is that not true?

[Dienekes]

I feel that. At the same time, I think the expending/retrieving maneuvers was the biggest conceptual sticking point-- something like "fatigue points" is easy to swallow, but "why can't I use Mountain Hammer twice in a row?" is harder to rationalize as anything but gamist.

Really? I take it those people haven't gotten into many fights. While it's not precisely as limited as "you can't do two straight punches in a row" one most certainly does step back away from the attack range refocus oneself and figure what the next method of attack is going to be.



Okay, here are my current thoughts:

There will be one Martial Adept class, with Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade as subclasses.
The basic mechanic will be "stamina points," a la spell points. The class will get, oh... 75% of the daily points that a full caster does, and no cantrip-equivalent-- their at-will fallback will be basic weapon attacks.
Each subclass will have its own way of picking up a small trickle of points mid-combat.
Stances will work be broken by being knocked prone or grappled, rather than damaged, and you'll be able to assume one as a reaction when you roll initiative or begin your turn.


That sounds pretty interesting actually. I'd play that.


But this was only really the case for the warblade... the crusader had a weird random mechanic in which you couldn't controll which maneuvers you had access to, and the swordsage lacked a recovery mechanic aside from 'spend a turn to regain 1 maneuver' - (unless you used a specific feat, and a rather dubious interpretation of it).

But, the Crusaders weird random refresh mechanic exactly was the method of regaining lost maneuvers. So that's two of the three. You may have a point with the Swordsage. I've never played one.


You're right; I could do that pretty literally. My concern is less about the process itself than it is about intraparty balance. ToB characters in 3.5 were flat step up normal martial characters, but that was fine because casters were three or more steps up from your basic martial. There was room to staple a whole new powerful mechanic onto them. 5e (to its credit) doesn't have that kind of power gap-- I'm going to be working off the Swords Bard and its ilk as a base, not the Fighter.

I think this ends up with just more to do with scaling than anything else. Get the damage numbers and attack bonuses correct for 5e and I don't think there will be too much of a problem. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that a ToB character gets that would break the game. They will probably end up being far more varied in their playstyle and versatile than your usual Fighters and Rogues. But in pure numbers maybe not as strong. It's telling that 5e Fighters get essentially one of the Warblades best maneuvers for pure damage potential at level 2.

[Composer99]

The 5e combat manoeuvre system I wrote up originally used stamina-as-spell-points to use manoeuvres, with characters regaining spent stamina on a short or long rest.

I don't think you can create a whole suite of 1st through 9th level manoeuvres without ending up with something partly or even mostly unbalanced, but it *is* nice to give characters in-combat options that interact with saving throws or impose conditions, and aren't just "attack for damage".

[Talionis]

I think you might go and revamp the Battlemaster subclass.

One of my issues with the subclass is the very limited number of uses. In many ways, Blade Bard gets unlimited use of its 3 choice feature at level 14 with a 1d6 dice. Blade Bard also has access to full casting.

I think you might be able to add some better way for Battlemaster Superiority Dice to Recharge. Then maybe add stances as feat options. I believe you could take a stance as a feat in 3.5. Fighter gets access to more feats than any other character so they could take a couple stances as feats without too much issue.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I do have one question. I thought most of the complaints about martial power was about the other 2 pillars, not so much combat. Is that not true?
(assuming you're talking about 3.5) ...ish? A well-built Fighter in 3.5 could dish out more than enough damage, but they couldn't do much else (if anything), even in a fight. No battlefield control, no status conditions, no alternate types of attack-- you either hit it with your sword or you can't do crap. (Combat maneuvers like tripping were practically unusable if you weren't specialized in that particular one).

(assuming you're talking about 5e): Absolutely; I have no real complaints about 5e's balance. I just want to make complicated martial characters with lots of options for those (like me) who enjoy such things.


Really? I take it those people haven't gotten into many fights. While it's not precisely as limited as "you can't do two straight punches in a row" one most certainly does step back away from the attack range refocus oneself and figure what the next method of attack is going to be.
You're right, there certainly are viable explanations for that sort of thing, but they weren't explained well and they weren't baked in. If, say, Mountain Hammer talked about seizing a momentary opening to strike a devastating blow, it would have helped.


That sounds pretty interesting actually. I'd play that.
Thanks! Keep an eye out, I guess.


I think this ends up with just more to do with scaling than anything else. Get the damage numbers and attack bonuses correct for 5e and I don't think there will be too much of a problem. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that a ToB character gets that would break the game. They will probably end up being far more varied in their playstyle and versatile than your usual Fighters and Rogues. But in pure numbers maybe not as strong. It's telling that 5e Fighters get essentially one of the Warblades best maneuvers for pure damage potential at level 2.

"More varied playstyle but not as strong in pure numbers" is exactly what I'm going to aim for.

[Segev]

You're right; I could do that pretty literally. My concern is less about the process itself than it is about intraparty balance. ToB characters in 3.5 were flat step up normal martial characters, but that was fine because casters were three or more steps up from your basic martial. There was room to staple a whole new powerful mechanic onto them. 5e (to its credit) doesn't have that kind of power gap-- I'm going to be working off the Swords Bard and its ilk as a base, not the Fighter.

Hm. I'd just make the rule set and the maneuvers, then create subclasses for each major class to use them. If you're feeling really ambitious, you could make a class or two that use them as primary mechanics, but then you have to come up with subclasses for those. By wedding them to subclasses, you just have to balance them against general subclass balance. You're not tacking new stuff on to "weak" classes.

[Sigreid]

(assuming you're talking about 3.5) ...ish? A well-built Fighter in 3.5 could dish out more than enough damage, but they couldn't do much else (if anything), even in a fight. No battlefield control, no status conditions, no alternate types of attack-- you either hit it with your sword or you can't do crap. (Combat maneuvers like tripping were practically unusable if you weren't specialized in that particular one).

(assuming you're talking about 5e): Absolutely; I have no real complaints about 5e's balance. I just want to make complicated martial characters with lots of options for those (like me) who enjoy such things.


You're right, there certainly are viable explanations for that sort of thing, but they weren't explained well and they weren't baked in. If, say, Mountain Hammer talked about seizing a momentary opening to strike a devastating blow, it would have helped.


Thanks! Keep an eye out, I guess.


"More varied playstyle but not as strong in pure numbers" is exactly what I'm going to aim for.
Thanks for the response. Actually I meant that I mostly see in this forum for 5e gripes about what casters, particularly wizards can do out of combat as opposed to what martial characters can do.

For what your goal is, and this is purely personal opinion that you might consider, my issue with the tome of battle wasn't that it had martial characters that could do other things, but that the other things when I looked at it mostly looked like wizard with a sword and not like super competent martial guy.

Just food for thought.

[Dienekes]

Thanks for the response. Actually I meant that I mostly see in this forum for 5e gripes about what casters, particularly wizards can do out of combat as opposed to what martial characters can do.

For what your goal is, and this is purely personal opinion that you might consider, my issue with the tome of battle wasn't that it had martial characters that could do other things, but that the other things when I looked at it mostly looked like wizard with a sword and not like super competent martial guy.

Just food for thought.

That mostly depended on which school of weeaboo fighting magic you were looking at. Swordsage basically was just a wizard with a sword. Their schools allowed them to shoot fireballs, and meld into shadows, and all that stuff. Crusaders were just reskinned Paladins really so they had a school that gave them a ton of magic healing. But the Warblade were pretty much non-magical. I think the only magic things they could really do is throw their weapon and have come back to them. And the infamous Iron Heart Surge which was supposed to be the mundane ability to grit your teeth and work through the pain and status effects that were hindering you, but was so poorly worded it kinda-sorta became a Dispel Magic on anything that was touching you.

Edit: Oh and 1 maneuver allowed them to hit the ground really hard to cause a localized earthquake that knocked people prone. But both this and the bouncing weapon maneuver were only available at level 15.

[Sigreid]

That mostly depended on which school of weeaboo fighting magic you were looking at. Swordsage basically was just a wizard with a sword. Their schools allowed them to shoot fireballs, and meld into shadows, and all that stuff. Crusaders were just reskinned Paladins really so they had a school that gave them a ton of magic healing. But the Warblade were pretty much non-magical. I think the only magic things they could really do is throw their weapon and have come back to them. And the infamous Iron Heart Surge which was supposed to be the mundane ability to grit your teeth and work through the pain and status effects that were hindering you, but was so poorly worded it kinda-sorta became a Dispel Magic on anything that was touching you.

Edit: Oh and 1 maneuver allowed them to hit the ground really hard to cause a localized earthquake that knocked people prone. But both this and the bouncing weapon maneuver were only available at level 15.

Thanks for your response too. I even think my main gripe about 4e was it felt (not necessarily was) like their answer to balancing all classes against the wizard was to make all classes wizards.

[Segev]

Thanks for your response too. I even think my main gripe about 4e was it felt (not necessarily was) like their answer to balancing all classes against the wizard was to make all classes wizards.

Nah, they made all classes martial adepts. Including the wizard. Which has the same effect of them all being the same, but I feel the need to point out that the mechanic was definitely based more on martial maneuvers than on spell slots.

[Kane0]

Sounds interesting. I like the stamina pool concept, long rest resource that you can get a little back in different ways depending on subclass?
Strikes being actions that use up stamina, boosts bonus actions that use up stamina and require concentration and stances one-at-a-time that don't use stamina or concentration?

Warblade - When you crit or reduce an enemy to 0 HP regain X stamina
Swordsage - When you take the dodge action regain Y stamina
Crusader - Regain 1dZ stamina at the start of each of your turns

Wait, that would run into some serious bag of rats issues. Maybe not.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Well, the Crusader was my favorite class, I will be happy to see how you do it and check it when you will finish.

[Laserlight]

There are far too many threads complaining about LR / SR / 5 minutes adventuring day; I would not try SR slots.

What I'd really prefer is a recharge as for monster abilities. Start with 5-6 work your way up to 2-6.

[Aaedimus]

What if you had to balance rising focus and fatigue levels throughout the combat, each stance gaining and losing abilities based on those levels. Concentration checks when hit only activate after a certain level of fatigue, and each turn not in stance drops fatigue level, but falling out of stance also loses focus/rage/determination depending on the stance.

That way, each combat you're not playing with a resource like spell points, but an active in battle status that changes in flux with the battle

Successful actions can raise focus/anger/determination they also either raise or restore fatigue levels. Higher focus levels allow for more diverse and effective actions and reactions, each of which raises your fatigue different amounts. Higher fatigue makes some actions less effective. After you hit a certain level of fatigue you have to roll concentration to keep the stance active when hit (maybe getting hit raises fatigue?)

This avoids all short/long rest resource mechanics while creating a style of fighting that is dynamic, and takes thought and strategy

Maybe you receive a debuff next turn (disadvantage?) if you mishandle fatigue levels and drop stance due to concentration failure.

What do these stances do?
Maybe you get an extra reaction, and/or can do specific things on your reaction (costing stamina) or an extra action with which you can do specific things (costing stamina) and what actions are available (or how effective they are?) depends on your current focus levels...

Or maybe each stance just has a certain number of focus points you can burn off at different rates (,to do different things) before needing to fight out of stance, recharging focus per round

[Mongobear]

Not sure if it's been said, but a ToB port would be hugely overpowered in 5e mechanics. Having abilities on par with actual spells, that never run out and refresh Everytime you roll initiative would outclass everything.

Imagine if a Paladin could just always Divine Smite, no spell slot needed. Imagine if a BM Fighters tricks added anywhere between 1 and 20 dice to the damage of his trip, every 4 turns as he expends them and gets them back.

It just isn't balanced to have that sort of power with no recovery time.

At best, either build upon BM Maneuvers with multiple tiers of maneuvers, requiring certain lower tier options, as you learn more complex versions of things, or keep them Vancian/Spell Point based but make them "run out of sword" for the big stuff. Adding an expanded array of 'Cantrips' on par with BB/GFB would be where I'd start.

In fact >>EVERY SINGLE THING THEY DO<< except for a very few limited number of boosts/stances should be designed like the SCAG-blade Cantrips--"As part of this maneuver, make a weapon attack roll... Etc"

[DeadMech]

Nothing DnD has ever done has been as fun for me as playing a 3.5 crusader. Even if the delayed damage mechanic was a bit fiddly and hard to remember nothing was as inspired as it in my opinion. Even if one of the end game stances for the class wasn't actually possible to meet the requirements for. Even if it really should have said you only gain hp from hitting evil enemies that are actively a threat...It was a near perfect class in basically every way. The first thing I asked when someone asked me to play 5e was if the crusader had been released for it yet.

Some people like ToB because it closed the gap between sword wielders and magic wielders. I appreciate this and even in 5e people whine about that balance but this is only a bonus in my mind. The thing that made crusader for me was that it fixed a fundamental problem I have with fighters, and barbarians, and rogues and paladins and whatever other class you can think of that picked up a sword. Somehow every other class in the game I had played made demolishing badguys with a sword boring. You roll to hit, if you hit roll some damage. And you did that every turn. Am I in range of the badguy? Yes.I swing at him. No? I move closer and then I swing at him. Over and over and over. Even playing a wizard in 5e you can fall into this trap where you just keep spamming the same action turn after turn after turn. Bonus action to move the flaming sphere action to toss a firebolt. But at least in that case I had the option to do other things.

With the refreshing, randomly drawn from a prepared list crusader maneuvers you NEVER do the same thing twice in a row. Usually I'm not much for RNG in game, my least favorite part of the hobby, but here it works because at most I was preparing 5 maneuvers. A fight would start and I'd have 3 available. Maybe they weren't the exact one I wanted at just that moment but none of them were ever useless and at most I was 2 turns away from gaining access to a specific one. The odds were always in my favor. EVERY turn I had choices to make. Tactics to consider. Do I switch my stance to draw aggro? Do I switch it to regen a small amount of health? Which maneuver do I pull out this time. The one with a small damage boost that shoves enemies around? The one that heals me if I hit with an attack? One that gives my allies a chance to escape the enemy threat range? Maybe the one that gives me some damage reduction. Every turn I had things to think about. Different tools that could be pulled out for the evolving situation. Different boosts to squeak through a tough spot.

And you know what else was awesome about that class. It delivered what it promised in the fluff. I was the invincible bulwark that stood guard between the innocent and the evil of the world. If the enemy gave me a mortal wound I make them pay for it with a final glorious stroke of my blade before I fell. And sometimes afterwards I'd get right up through my own grit and determination to continue the fight. I inspired my allies to greater heights of heroism and coordinated them across the battlefield. I threw lesser foes around like toys and wielded my weapons and shield to a degree of mastery most who touch a sword don't even know exists. I weaved through combat like a leaf on the edge of a storm. Acting by highly trained instinct and led through the premonitions of my god in a deadly dance. Never fully sure what was coming but trusting that in the opportune moment a flash of inspiration would deliver me exactly where I needed to be, ready to deliver just the right strike.

[Kane0]

Nothing DnD has ever done has been as fun for me as playing a 3.5 crusader. Even if the delayed damage mechanic was a bit fiddly and hard to remember nothing was as inspired as it in my opinion. Even if one of the end game stances for the class wasn't actually possible to meet the requirements for. Even if it really should have said you only gain hp from hitting evil enemies that are actively a threat...It was a near perfect class in basically every way. The first thing I asked when someone asked me to play 5e was if the crusader had been released for it yet.

Some people like ToB because it closed the gap between sword wielders and magic wielders. I appreciate this and even in 5e people whine about that balance but this is only a bonus in my mind. The thing that made crusader for me was that it fixed a fundamental problem I have with fighters, and barbarians, and rogues and paladins and whatever other class you can think of that picked up a sword. Somehow every other class in the game I had played made demolishing badguys with a sword boring. You roll to hit, if you hit roll some damage. And you did that every turn. Am I in range of the badguy? Yes.I swing at him. No? I move closer and then I swing at him. Over and over and over. Even playing a wizard in 5e you can fall into this trap where you just keep spamming the same action turn after turn after turn. Bonus action to move the flaming sphere action to toss a firebolt. But at least in that case I had the option to do other things.

With the refreshing, randomly drawn from a prepared list crusader maneuvers you NEVER do the same thing twice in a row. Usually I'm not much for RNG in game, my least favorite part of the hobby, but here it works because at most I was preparing 5 maneuvers. A fight would start and I'd have 3 available. Maybe they weren't the exact one I wanted at just that moment but none of them were ever useless and at most I was 2 turns away from gaining access to a specific one. The odds were always in my favor. EVERY turn I had choices to make. Tactics to consider. Do I switch my stance to draw aggro? Do I switch it to regen a small amount of health? Which maneuver do I pull out this time. The one with a small damage boost that shoves enemies around? The one that heals me if I hit with an attack? One that gives my allies a chance to escape the enemy threat range? Maybe the one that gives me some damage reduction. Every turn I had things to think about. Different tools that could be pulled out for the evolving situation. Different boosts to squeak through a tough spot.

And you know what else was awesome about that class. It delivered what it promised in the fluff. I was the invincible bulwark that stood guard between the innocent and the evil of the world. If the enemy gave me a mortal wound I make them pay for it with a final glorious stroke of my blade before I fell. And sometimes afterwards I'd get right up through my own grit and determination to continue the fight. I inspired my allies to greater heights of heroism and coordinated them across the battlefield. I threw lesser foes around like toys and wielded my weapons and shield to a degree of mastery most who touch a sword don't even know exists. I weaved through combat like a leaf on the edge of a storm. Acting by highly trained instinct and led through the premonitions of my god in a deadly dance. Never fully sure what was coming but trusting that in the opportune moment a flash of inspiration would deliver me exactly where I needed to be, ready to deliver just the right strike.


I'm not sure why, but for some reason i'm imagining piloting an Awesome with 5 cards in my deck (PPC, PPC, PPC, Small Laser, Battle Fist), then on my turn drawing two cards and ending declaring that I charge into melee.
I guess not everybody loves 'the psyker experience', as my mate puts it.

[DeTess]

Honestly, I think an important part of getting the feel of ToB is for the attacks to refresh in combat, which makes all the options lined up a bit of a miss for me.


I have to agree with this to some degree. Maneuvers only recharging after combat would be fine too, but one of the things I liked about the system was that you never needed to worry about conserving resources for the next battle.

As for creating and balancing maneuvers, I'd take a look at the rogue's sneak attack feature. I think a strike would be mostly balanced if it seems about on par with a sneak attack, given that they're booth 'single attack per round' martial stuff. Strikes with potent riders would do less damage, while a pure damage strike should even out to about the same amount of damage.

[Sigreid]

Nah, they made all classes martial adepts. Including the wizard. Which has the same effect of them all being the same, but I feel the need to point out that the mechanic was definitely based more on martial maneuvers than on spell slots.

Fair, it just seemed like it was all magic.

[GreyBlack]

If you're going to be rewriting the old classes of Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade, I don't think you should use either system.

In the old system, each class had a unique refresh mechanic; Crusader maneuvers refreshed on running out, Warblades refreshed on a bonus action or regular attack, and Swordsages on a full round meditation. As such, if you're making 3 classes, you'd have to make each class have a unique refresh mechanic. If you're making only 1 class, I would make the refresh mechanic vary by subclass.

As to stances, I do like them using the Concentration slot; it's simple, elegant, and it doesn't require inventing a new subsystem for something that already exists. That said, your stance will have to be comparable to a Concentration spell, so be prepared to write some bananas crazy stances.

[Segev]

One advantage to adopting the Superiority Die is that it already has a mechanic for recovery when you roll init and don't have any left. Creating more maneuvers based on it would suffice, and you could add stances as their own thing that uses Concentration. The one issue here that I see clearly is that the Battle Master lacks stances, so giving them only to "new" subclasses could be problematic.

[Dienekes]

One advantage to adopting the Superiority Die is that it already has a mechanic for recovery when you roll init and don't have any left. Creating more maneuvers based on it would suffice, and you could add stances as their own thing that uses Concentration. The one issue here that I see clearly is that the Battle Master lacks stances, so giving them only to "new" subclasses could be problematic.

The thing were you get 1 back that only becomes available at level 15?

That doesn't really sound at all like playing the old ToB classes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Here's a rough sketch:


Chassis: d10 HD, proficient in Str and Con, simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, shields.
Class Features: Extra Attack at 6th; maneuvers known as the Sorcerer's spells known; stamina points at about 75% of a full caster's spell points.
Crusader: Save DCs based on Cha; roll 1d6 at the start of each turn in combat and regain [1/2 Cha] points on a roll of 6.
Swordsage: Save DCs based on Wis; regain [1/2 Wis] points when... uh... yeah I got nothing yet
Warblade: Save DCs based on Int; regain [1/2 Int] points when they score a crit

[Dienekes]

Here's a rough sketch:


Chassis: d10 HD, proficient in Str and Con, simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, shields.
Class Features: Extra Attack at 6th; maneuvers known as the Sorcerer's spells known; stamina points at about 75% of a full caster's spell points.
Crusader: Save DCs based on Cha; roll 1d6 at the start of each turn in combat and regain [1/2 Cha] points on a roll of 6.
Swordsage: Save DCs based on Wis; regain [1/2 Wis] points when... uh... yeah I got nothing yet
Warblade: Save DCs based on Int; regain [1/2 Int] points when they score a crit


You could just take notes from the old Swordsage. It takes an action to regain points, but make them more than what the other subclasses get. Maybe full Wis?

[Aaedimus]

The issue you have here is that now this class will be heavily MAD because to hit will be Str/Dex while saves are based on mental stats. Either the player will be an effective glass cannon, or an ineffective martial frontliner

[BloodSnake'sCha]

The issue you have here is that now this class will be heavily MAD because to hit will be Str/Dex while saves are based on mental stats. Either the player will be an effective glass cannon, or an ineffective martial frontliner

Or like the monk, not a frontliner.


It doesn't work with the crusader. Work great with the sword sage and kind of work with the warlord.

[GreyBlack]

The issue you have here is that now this class will be heavily MAD because to hit will be Str/Dex while saves are based on mental stats. Either the player will be an effective glass cannon, or an ineffective martial frontliner

Good! This edition needs a bit of MAD!

In all seriousness though... the advantage of breaking it up into 3 classes would allow for recommendations of strength/dex based on class. For example, the Swordsage would only get light armor, incentivizing a Dex based play style, while the Crusader gets heavy armor, incentivizing Strength based style. To hit is then based on whichever class you're playing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You could just take notes from the old Swordsage. It takes an action to regain points, but make them more than what the other subclasses get. Maybe full Wis?
The issue is that I don't want to allow out-of-combat recovery.


The issue you have here is that now this class will be heavily MAD because to hit will be Str/Dex while saves are based on mental stats. Either the player will be an effective glass cannon, or an ineffective martial frontliner
No more than a Monk, and arguably less-- the higher hit die and armor mean you'll need less Con. Like I said, my balance point is something like a Swords Bard or Bladesinger, subclasses that demand some MAD in exchange for the versatility and at-will power of a sword. It's definitely worth keeping an eye on, though; if it looks like it'll be too weak I can change it

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I definitely think the Crusader subclass should get heavy armor proficiency. Tanking is their iconic thing.

[Segev]

The thing were you get 1 back that only becomes available at level 15?

That doesn't really sound at all like playing the old ToB classes.

REally? I thought they got 1 back every initiative by default. I'll have to reread it later when I have access to my PHB.

[Grod_The_Giant]

REally? I thought they got 1 back every initiative by default. I'll have to reread it later when I have access to my PHB.
Unfortunately, it's only once when you roll initiative and have no dice left.

Anyway, here's some rough sketches of what some Diamond Mind maneuvers might look like. (For those who aren't familiar, Diamond Mind is all about intense concentration, and is available to all three classes).


Sapphire Nightmare Blade (lv 1): Make a weapon attack and an Insight check, with a DC equal to the target's AC. If you succeed, you have advantage on the attack.
Stance of Clarity (lv 1): As a bonus action, pick one foe you can see. For as long as you concentrate, up to 1 minute, they have disadvantage on attacks against you but all other creatures have advantage. If they die before the stance ends, you gain one stamina point and the effect ends.
Action Before Thought (lv 2): As a reaction, you may make a Wisdom save in place of a Dexterity save. You may add your proficiency bonus to the save even if you're not normally proficient.
Insightful Strike (lv 3): As an action, make a weapon attack. If it hits, you may make a Wisdom check and add the result to your damage.
Mind Strike (lv 4): As an action, make a weapon attack. If it hits, the target takes 8d6 psychic damage in place of your normal weapon damage.
Hearing the Air (lv 5): As a bonus action, gain 60ft Blindsight and advantage on Perception checks for as long as you concentrate, up to 1 hour.
Moment of Alacrity (lv 6): As a bonus action, you may take a second action. For the remainder of the encounter, your initiative is improved by 20.
Avalanche of Blades (lv 7): As an action, you may make melee attacks against a single foe until you miss.
Diamond Defense (lv 8): As a reaction when you fail a saving throw, you may choose to succeed instead.
Time Stands Still (lv 9): As an action, you may make ten weapon attacks. You may move between strikes.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I was so excited seeing this so I decided to even find my account and log back in. :)

Few thoughts:

- Tome of Battle, and especially Diamond Mind liked "replacer" abilities, where you replace some roll with a skill check, which probably wouldn't translate very well to 5e, because of bounded accuracy. The problem is that your skill check would produce about the same results numerically as the attack roll, or saving throw, with a slight variation, so swapping them around isn't much.

For example it shows with Action before Thought and other similar maneuvers. Replacing a save with Concentration check was really meaningful, cause your Concentration check is very likely to be much higher than your save, but I'm less keen on replacing a save with Wis check, even with proficiency bonus.

Other example is your version of Sapphire Nightmare Blade (lv 1) Now, I do remember that <gem> Nightmare Blade maneuvers were "Roll Concentration against the AC and gain the benefit", but in this particular case it's pretty much another attack roll, numericaly, unless your Wisdom is higher than your attack stat and you don't have a magic weapon, or you have Insight Expertise. I also want to note that this maneuver becomes completely useless once you get your Extra Attack, which might or might not be the your intent for it.

That said, I think because Expertise is a thing and keeping the "replacer" abilitites will obviously make obtaining Expertise very desirable, it might be useful to embrace it and grant Expertise by the base class, and balance disciplines accordingly. Not only that, you may assign a skill to each or some of the disciplines, which IIRC was done in original ToB - Diamond Mind uses Concentration, Tiger Claw used Jump, etc.

As for how I'd prefer to see the base class, I think stamina points works, although instead of making a lot of them and recovering on long rest, I think it'd be better if they were a short-rest resources (so yea, you don't run out of daily sword usage). Might be an interesting idea to have "spender" and "generator" maneuvers, with former being the big hitting toys, and latter - less impactful, maybe more defensive maneuvers that give you stamina back.

[Segev]

Unfortunately, it's only once when you roll initiative and have no dice left.That actually is what I remembered, and thought I'd specified. I think it's a fine mechanic as long as short resting restores more of them. It basically says that the exhausted martial adept is slightly better off than the exhausted warlock.


Anyway, here's some rough sketches of what some Diamond Mind maneuvers might look like. (For those who aren't familiar, Diamond Mind is all about intense concentration, and is available to all three classes).Nice. Because you'd posited some specific objections to using the Superiority Dice for this, I'm going to respond with how I'd frame these using that mechanic. I know, you probably aren't interested, but I am, so I'm going to still stick my design foot in. :smalltongue:



Sapphire Nightmare Blade (lv 1): Make a weapon attack and an Insight check, with a DC equal to the target's AC. If you succeed, you have advantage on the attack.Add the Superiority Die to the Insight check.

Though I have to admit that this one's actually kind-of weak in 5e. In 3e, the strength here was that Skill Checks were often much higher than attack rolls, because they stacked ranks and other bonuses. In 5e, a skill check with Proficiency is no better than the attack roll itself. And adding the Superiority die to the attack roll is just going to be superior, which existing maneuvers do already, usually with something else on top, I believe. (I am, again, running on vague memory, so I apologize if I'm wrong there.)

I think this would be better done thusly (and I'm still incorporating the Superiority Die):

Sapphire Nightmare Blade (lv 1): When you miss with a melee weapon attack, you may spend a Superiority Die to make a Wisdom(Insight) roll and add the Superiority die to it. If the result is higher than the target's AC, you hit instead of missing. This is a critical hit if the d20 comes up a natural 20.


Stance of Clarity (lv 1): As a bonus action, pick one foe you can see. For as long as you concentrate, up to 1 minute, they have disadvantage on attacks against you but all other creatures have advantage. If they die before the stance ends, you gain one stamina point and the effect ends.
This is pretty good as it stands. I'd just replace the gaining of a stamina point with the gaining of a Superiority Die; making the recovery mechanic built into the Stances seems like a neat idea to me.


Action Before Thought (lv 2): As a reaction, you may make a Wisdom save in place of a Dexterity save. You may add your proficiency bonus to the save even if you're not normally proficient.I'd replace adding proficiency even if nonproficient with spending and adding a superiority die. Much stronger if they are proficient, but hey, they're spending a resource for it.

Insightful Strike (lv 3): As an action, make a weapon attack. If it hits, you may make a Wisdom check and add the result to your damage.This is ludicrously strong. Adding a d20+(ability modifier) to damage is enormous!

I suggest something more like the following, which goes along with the notion of "understanding the foe" for greater damage, while only magnifying damage enormously against creatures which normally would resist.

Insightful Strike (lv 3): When making an attack roll, spend a superiority die. If the attack hits, you may add the superiority die plus your wisdom modifier to the damage, and ignore any Resistances the target may have to the damage type.


Mind Strike (lv 4): As an action, make a weapon attack. If it hits, the target takes 8d6 psychic damage in place of your normal weapon damage.This is pretty potent, but not overly so for a 4th level spell-ish level of balance. I'd suggest adding the superiority die to the to-hit roll, or making it 7d6 and add any number of Superiority Dice the attacker cares to spend (minimum the 1 to activate it).


Hearing the Air (lv 5): As a bonus action, gain 60ft Blindsight and advantage on Perception checks for as long as you concentrate, up to 1 hour.This one's good overall. I'd love to add a way to gain superiority dice out of it, but I'm drawing a blank as to the best way to do so. Maybe you can end it by activating another maneuver, spending 1 "free" superiority die and gaining another? That doesn't quite feel right, though.


Moment of Alacrity (lv 6): As a bonus action, you may take a second action. For the remainder of the encounter, your initiative is improved by 20.This has a lot of potential for going in weird directions, such as allowing multiple spells to be cast in a round. And while that may or may not be balanced, it certainly isn't "martial adept"-y.

I propose the following, instead:
Moment of Alacrity (lv 6): As a bonus action, you may spend any number of superiority dice to make an equal number of attacks. Add the superiority die granting the attack to the damage of each attack.


Avalanche of Blades (lv 7): As an action, you may make melee attacks against a single foe until you miss.Spend a superiority die, and roll it with each attack roll.


Diamond Defense (lv 8): As a reaction when you fail a saving throw, you may choose to succeed instead.Roll the expended Superiority Die; if adding it to the failed save makes it a success, you keep the die (and/or the ability to use this maneuver).

Time Stands Still (lv 9): As an action, you may make ten weapon attacks. You may move between strikes.

Add the superiority die to the damage of each attack.


Also, if this is a short-rest-ish mechanic, maybe it should cap out at level 5. Or the level 6+ ones should have a harsher recharging requirement, like Mystic Arcana do.

[GreyBlack]

Nice. Because you'd posited some specific objections to using the Superiority Dice for this, I'm going to respond with how I'd frame these using that mechanic. I know, you probably aren't interested, but I am, so I'm going to still stick my design foot in. :smalltongue:



To be honest? Still think superiority dice wouldn't work great for this system. I agree with Grod here.



Add the Superiority Die to the Insight check.

Though I have to admit that this one's actually kind-of weak in 5e. In 3e, the strength here was that Skill Checks were often much higher than attack rolls, because they stacked ranks and other bonuses. In 5e, a skill check with Proficiency is no better than the attack roll itself. And adding the Superiority die to the attack roll is just going to be superior, which existing maneuvers do already, usually with something else on top, I believe. (I am, again, running on vague memory, so I apologize if I'm wrong there.)

I think this would be better done thusly (and I'm still incorporating the Superiority Die):

Sapphire Nightmare Blade (lv 1): When you miss with a melee weapon attack, you may spend a Superiority Die to make a Wisdom(Insight) roll and add the Superiority die to it. If the result is higher than the target's AC, you hit instead of missing. This is a critical hit if the d20 comes up a natural 20.


Big reason I wanted to come to this. There are also more ways to increase your skill checks as opposed to your attack rolls. Expertise, various feats, etc. If the marital adept character class wanted to run these skill based maneuvers, I would see them doing everything in their power to maximize that skill check, including taking levels in a class that gained expertise or just in taking the Prodigy feat. So, just running this vanilla without the superiority dice, we'd be looking a tier 2 combatant attacking at a +10 to hit at level 5, as opposed to the +6 normally. That gap only increases with level. That's without multiclassing; now imagine something like an assassin rogue doing this.

The TL;DR here is that I think you're underestimating the power of the maneuver as originally conceived.

[Segev]

Big reason I wanted to come to this. There are also more ways to increase your skill checks as opposed to your attack rolls. Expertise, various feats, etc. If the marital adept character class wanted to run these skill based maneuvers, I would see them doing everything in their power to maximize that skill check, including taking levels in a class that gained expertise or just in taking the Prodigy feat. So, just running this vanilla without the superiority dice, we'd be looking a tier 2 combatant attacking at a +10 to hit at level 5, as opposed to the +6 normally. That gap only increases with level. That's without multiclassing; now imagine something like an assassin rogue doing this.

The TL;DR here is that I think you're underestimating the power of the maneuver as originally conceived.

While you might be right about multiclassing to achieve these things, the primary design paradigm of 5e wants us to at the very least assume that PCs don't need to be multiclassed in order for their powers to be useful. So unless you build Expertise into the classes, at which point you're doing it strictly for this benefit, I'm not underestimating the power of this maneuver. And, if you ARE doing it jsut for this benefit, superiority dice are a better mechanic for achieving a similar effect.

[Grod_The_Giant]

On skill-based maneuvers: Yeah. Looking at it a little more, I don't think 5e-style ability checks are going to be useful here. In their base state they're about equal to attack rolls and saves, and while there are a lot of ways to boost them, none of them really make sense as native options for the Martial Adept. I think I'm going to have to find alternate ways to achieve similar thematic results.

On Superiority Dice: I concede that they generally could be attached to maneuvers, but I still don't think they should be. Firstly... they're the Battle Master's thing. I can't use them for a full-caster-equivalent without making the BM look like a weak mess-- weak because high-level Maneuvers would by necessity be vastly stronger than attack add-ons from level 3, and messy because the full-caster-equivalent would need to have a much more regimented structure, with maneuvers of different levels and schools and high-level maneuvers costing than low-level ones and all that jazz. I don't want to demolish a fun, balanced subclass just because its mechanic would sorta work here. And perhaps most of all... it's just not where my mind is going, sorry.

[Segev]

"Not where your mind is going" is the stronger argument, in my opinion, and is perfectly sufficient by itself.

I think the battle master isn't really "supposed" to have his superiority die as a unique schtick, any more than wizards are meant to have spellcasting as theirs. It strikes me as something they meant, initially, to be expansive and pervasive, but never got around to expanding on.

Left as-is, it's not a unique toy; it's an orphaned, weird little mechanic. :smallfrown:

[GreyBlack]

While you might be right about multiclassing to achieve these things, the primary design paradigm of 5e wants us to at the very least assume that PCs don't need to be multiclassed in order for their powers to be useful. So unless you build Expertise into the classes, at which point you're doing it strictly for this benefit, I'm not underestimating the power of this maneuver. And, if you ARE doing it jsut for this benefit, superiority dice are a better mechanic for achieving a similar effect.

I assume you glossed over the number of other ways to get superiority dice, such as feats or just putting it into the standard class abilities as a nod to how skill focused the ToB classes were. It's okay; I don't begrudge you of it. Just pointing out that multiclassing isn't required. Although I will note how much sense it would make for a White Raven school specialist character to take Expertise in Diplomacy and such. Maybe tie the expertise to your chosen school?

That said, this is kinda an opinion based thing. I just wanted to point out how the skill checks as attacks are slightly different and easier to abuse than regular attacks, and could normally be better than attack rolls.

[Seclora]

Honestly, I would ditch the notion of the three subclasses(Crusader, Warblade, and Swordsage) in favor of the Wizard's subclass-by-school approach. It removes the need to balance three distinct recovery methods in a single class, lets you make stances into subclass passive features, and then lets you give out some bonuses to in-discipline maneuvers.

You could make the crusader delayed damage/smite pool into a class feature, as well the Warblade's Initiative and damage bonuses. I like the idea of regaining stamina on a crit, but honestly, the Crusader's draw deck and hand of maneuvers mechanic is probably the most unique way of gaining your maneuvers, call it 'flow of battle' as a way to always have maneuvers, but also not have unlimited use of them. Let players build a deck with a number of maneuvers equal to their level, and only prepare one copy of each maneuver out of discipline. Then you can ready a number of maneuvers equal to your modifier, based on your subclass. Subclass chosen at level 2 or 3.

[Mongobear]

While I support the idea, I can't support the current form of some of these maneuvers, especially if using Spell Points AND regenerating some between combats/short rests.

10 weapon attacks in one Action? What... If you have Advantage, that's 10 chances to critical, 10 applications of any Weapon based bonus damage, 10 applications of GWM's -5/+10, and you can still Action Surge to attack again, or pop another Maneuver. Then just rest and get it again.

If this is going the be your design, you NEED to adapt to Vancian Spell slots and limit something like that to 1/long rest. There's a reason Wizards can't chuck Meteor Swarm more than once.

[Grod_The_Giant]

While I support the idea, I can't support the current form of some of these maneuvers, especially if using Spell Points AND regenerating some between combats/short rests.

10 weapon attacks in one Action? What... If you have Advantage, that's 10 chances to critical, 10 applications of any Weapon based bonus damage, 10 applications of GWM's -5/+10, and you can still Action Surge to attack again, or pop another Maneuver. Then just rest and get it again.

If this is going the be your design, you NEED to adapt to Vancian Spell slots and limit something like that to 1/long rest. There's a reason Wizards can't chuck Meteor Swarm more than once.
Don't worry, I'll be copying full spellcaster restrictions as well as power levels. Spell points still ban you from creating multiple 6th-9th slots (only one of each level), and I'm going to calibrate things so that expected regeneration and base stamina points balance out to total spell points.

UPDATE: I have a class! Roughly; I haven't formatted it nice yet but I want to post before bed.




Level

Special

Stamina Points

Maneuvers Known

Highest Level Maneuver



1

Maneuvers, Subclass

2

2

1st



2

Subclass Feature

4

3

1st



3

--

11

4

2nd



4

Ability Score Increase

12

5

2nd



5

--

22

6

4=3rd



6



27

7

3rd



7

--

33

8

4th



8

Ability Score Increase

39

9

4th



9

--

52

10

5th



10

Stance of Victory

59

11

5th



11

--

68

12

6th



12

Ability Score Increase

67

12

6th



13

--

77

13

7th



14



77

13

7th



15

--

88

14

8th



16

Ability Score Increase

88

14

8th



17

--

99

15

9th



18

Rapid Recovery

105

15

9th



19

Ability Score Increase

115

15

9th



20

Double Stance

125

15

9th




Hit Die: d10
Saves: Strength, Constitution
Skills: As the Fighter

Level 1: Maneuvers
Stamina Points: Your techniques require immense reserves of inner focus and physical strength, represented by Stamina Points. Stamina Points follow all the rules for Spell Points, as given in the DMG.
Maneuvers Known: You know as many maneuvers as a Sorcerer knows spells.
Schools: There are nine schools of maneuver, each representing a particular style and philosophy. Each subclass can only learn maneuvers from certain schools.


[*=1]Crusader: Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, White Raven
[*=1]Warblade: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, White Raven
[*=1]Swordsage: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw


Initiating Ability: The three different subclasses each use a different ability score to determine the save DC of their maneuvers.



[*=1]Crusader: Charisma
[*=1]Warblade: Intelligence
[*=1]Swordsage: Wisdom


Indomitable Stance- Beginning at 10th level, if you fail a concentration save to maintain a stance, you may choose to succeed instead. Once you have done so, you cannot use this ability again until you have completed a long or short rest.

Rapid Recovery- Beginning at 18th level, your Divine, Triumphant, or Focused Recovery feature grants you stamina points equal to your ability modifier, rather than half your modifier.

Double Stance: Beginning at 20th level, you may concentrate on two effects simultaneously. You only make one concentration save for both effects; if you fail, both effects end.

Crusader
Armor Proficiency—At 1st level, you gain proficiency in heavy armor.

Divine Recovery-- Your conviction grants you strength in the most desperate times. Beginning at 2nd level, roll 1d8 at the beginning of each of your turns in combat. If you roll an 8, you gain stamina points equal to one-half your Charisma modifier, rounded down.

Steely Resolve—Beginning at 6th level, when you take hit point damage, you may use your reaction to gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of damage you just took. These hit points expire at the end of your next turn.

Furious Counterstroke—Beginning at 14th level, you gain a bonus to weapon damage equal to one-fifth your temporary hit points from your Steely Resolve feature.

Warblade
Fighting Style—At 1st level, you gain one of the following Fighting Styles: Defense, Dueling, Mariner, Protection, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Triumphant Recovery—Nothing buoys your spirits like the thrill of battle. Beginning at 2nd level, when you roll a critical hit in combat, you gain stamina points equal to one-half your Intelligence modifier, rounded down.

Battle Cunning-- Beginning at 6th level, when you make a weapon attack with advantage, you gain a bonus to the damage equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Battle Ardor—Beginning at 14th level, you gain immunity to being charmed or frightened.

Swordsage
Discipline Focus-- At 1st level, pick one of the five disciplines that Swordsages can learn maneuvers from. You learn one maneuver from that school. At 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level, you learn one additional maneuver from your chosen school. These maneuvers don’t count against your number of maneuvers known.

Focused Recovery—Fatigue is a poison of the body, not the mind. Beginning at 2nd level, when you make an initiative check and roll an 11 or higher on the d20, you gain stamina points equal to one-half your Wisdom modifier, rounded down.

Quick to Act—Beginning at 6th level, you gain a bonus to initiative checks equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Evasion—Beginning at 14th level, you gain Evasion, as the the Rogue class feature

A note on Stamina Points: I derived the above progression by calculating how many points the Martial Adept could expect to recover over a 6-encounter day, then subtracting that from the totals in the DMG. It should balance out until Rapid Recovery at 17th level, at which point it becomes about half as effective as Arcane Recovery.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Don't worry, I'll be copying full spellcaster restrictions as well as power levels. Spell points still ban you from creating multiple 6th-9th slots (only one of each level), and I'm going to calibrate things so that expected regeneration and base stamina points balance out to total spell points.

UPDATE: I have a class! Roughly; I haven't formatted it nice yet but I want to post before bed.




Level

Special

Stamina Points

Maneuvers Known

Highest Level Maneuver



1

Maneuvers, Subclass

2

2

1st



2

Subclass Feature

4

3

1st



3

--

11

4

2nd



4

Ability Score Increase

12

5

2nd



5

--

22

6

4=3rd



6



27

7

3rd



7

--

33

8

4th



8

Ability Score Increase

39

9

4th



9

--

52

10

5th



10

Stance of Victory

59

11

5th



11

--

68

12

6th



12

Ability Score Increase

67

12

6th



13

--

77

13

7th



14



77

13

7th



15

--

88

14

8th



16

Ability Score Increase

88

14

8th



17

--

99

15

9th



18

Rapid Recovery

105

15

9th



19

Ability Score Increase

115

15

9th



20

Double Stance

125

15

9th




Hit Die: d10
Saves: Strength, Constitution
Skills: As the Fighter

Level 1: Maneuvers
Stamina Points: Your techniques require immense reserves of inner focus and physical strength, represented by Stamina Points. Stamina Points follow all the rules for Spell Points, as given in the DMG.
Maneuvers Known: You know as many maneuvers as a Sorcerer knows spells.
Schools: There are nine schools of maneuver, each representing a particular style and philosophy. Each subclass can only learn maneuvers from certain schools.


[*=1]Crusader: Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, White Raven
[*=1]Warblade: Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, White Raven
[*=1]Swordsage: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw


Initiating Ability: The three different subclasses each use a different ability score to determine the save DC of their maneuvers.



[*=1]Crusader: Charisma
[*=1]Warblade: Intelligence
[*=1]Swordsage: Wisdom


Indomitable Stance- Beginning at 10th level, if you fail a concentration save to maintain a stance, you may choose to succeed instead. Once you have done so, you cannot use this ability again until you have completed a long or short rest.

Rapid Recovery- Beginning at 18th level, your Divine, Triumphant, or Focused Recovery feature grants you stamina points equal to your ability modifier, rather than half your modifier.

Double Stance: Beginning at 20th level, you may concentrate on two effects simultaneously. You only make one concentration save for both effects; if you fail, both effects end.

Crusader
Armor Proficiency—At 1st level, you gain proficiency in heavy armor.

Divine Recovery-- Your conviction grants you strength in the most desperate times. Beginning at 2nd level, roll 1d8 at the beginning of each of your turns in combat. If you roll an 8, you gain stamina points equal to one-half your Charisma modifier, rounded down.

Steely Resolve—Beginning at 6th level, when you take hit point damage, you may use your reaction to gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of damage you just took. These hit points expire at the end of your next turn.

Furious Counterstroke—Beginning at 14th level, you gain a bonus to weapon damage equal to one-fifth your temporary hit points from your Steely Resolve feature.

Warblade
Fighting Style—At 1st level, you gain one of the following Fighting Styles: Defense, Dueling, Mariner, Protection, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Triumphant Recovery—Nothing buoys your spirits like the thrill of battle. Beginning at 2nd level, when you roll a critical hit in combat, you gain stamina points equal to one-half your Intelligence modifier, rounded down.

Battle Cunning-- Beginning at 6th level, when you make a weapon attack with advantage, you gain a bonus to the damage equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Battle Ardor—Beginning at 14th level, you gain immunity to being charmed or frightened.

Swordsage
Discipline Focus-- At 1st level, pick one of the five disciplines that Swordsages can learn maneuvers from. You learn one maneuver from that school. At 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level, you learn one additional maneuver from your chosen school. These maneuvers don’t count against your number of maneuvers known.

Focused Recovery—Fatigue is a poison of the body, not the mind. Beginning at 2nd level, when you make an initiative check and roll an 11 or higher on the d20, you gain stamina points equal to one-half your Wisdom modifier, rounded down.

Quick to Act—Beginning at 6th level, you gain a bonus to initiative checks equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Evasion—Beginning at 14th level, you gain Evasion, as the the Rogue class feature

A note on Stamina Points: I derived the above progression by calculating how many points the Martial Adept could expect to recover over a 6-encounter day, then subtracting that from the totals in the DMG. It should balance out until Rapid Recovery at 17th level, at which point it becomes about half as effective as Arcane Recovery.

I like it.
That is a nice start.

[DeadMech]

I'm not a fan of the stamina points and recovery mechanics. See, normal attacks are boring and maneuvers are interesting. And how it's set up now, especially at low levels means you will be forced to use normal attacks for the vast majority of combat. which sorta misses the point. Maneuvers generally don't do more damage than the full attack combo that was available to other martial classes and even if they did you couldn't actually spam them without going through the recovery process so it's not supposed to be necessary to limit them as such. The only reason an initiator class should be using a normal full attack is because they need a consistent and reliable way to deal allot of damage very quickly. They shouldn't be forced to not use maneuvers.

Other thing that jumps out at me is that steely resolve requiring a reaction also defeats the purpose. Crusader was a tank. The point of a tank is to be in the face of the enemy and prevent them from just running by and attacking your squishies instead. Not having a AO means you aren't as able to stop enemies from doing just that. One of the most common crusader strategies was to use combat reflexes to increase the number of OA's you could take in a turn and grab a reach weapon so that enemies who tried would have an absolutely terrible day.

On the upside temp hp is probably an easier to understand explanation of the steely resolve mechanic than how it was worded in 3.5.

[TripleD]

Combat maneuvers like tripping were practically unusable if you weren't specialized in that particular one


I seem to recall that was more psychological than mathematical. That is: the odds of tripping/disarming/etc. remained pretty decent and worth using, but most people wouldn’t because of 3.5’s hyper-specialization leading to the “just one gimmick” style of combat. Sure you could trip that devil, but because you didn’t have several feats devoted to improving your tripping it was hard to throw off that mindset and see it as viable.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I'll agree with DeadMech. This essentially makes them spellcasters with (mostly) offensive, and generally more restricted spells. I think long rest class with daily resource pool is a counter-intuitive interpretation of martial adepts, as original martial adepts were pretty much "short rest" classes, even though 3.5e doesn't even have short rests, but they refreshed their maneuvers on per-encounter basis.

Also for recovery and "Initiating Ability" - at low levels the recovery mechanic is pretty impactful, but it also wants you to have 18 in your WIS/INT/CHA which is pretty annoying, but later on recovery becomes pretty meh because of the way spell points scale - 2 points is equivalent of 1st level maneuver which isn't going to be much later on. That's it until level 18, but most games don't go that far, so I feel like point recovery simply doesn't scale well.

As for other uses of Initiating ability - Warblade seems to have the best usage for it, provided there are some ways to get advantage reliably. Bonus to initiative can be nice, I guess, but I don't think it's as useful as it would be in 3.5e. And Crusader doesn't have any features that work of Initiating Ability. Then there's manevuer DC, but that depends on maneuvers that use save DC in the first place, since any to-hit maneuver would be keyed off different ability, unlike spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm not a fan of the stamina points and recovery mechanics. See, normal attacks are boring and maneuvers are interesting. And how it's set up now, especially at low levels means you will be forced to use normal attacks for the vast majority of combat. which sorta misses the point. Maneuvers generally don't do more damage than the full attack combo that was available to other martial classes and even if they did you couldn't actually spam them without going through the recovery process so it's not supposed to be necessary to limit them as such. The only reason an initiator class should be using a normal full attack is because they need a consistent and reliable way to deal allot of damage very quickly. They shouldn't be forced to not use maneuvers.
That was 3.5, this is 5e-- what was balanced in one is not necessarily balanced in the other. The original ToB classes were straight upgrades to the PHB martial classes-- outside of highly specific builds (because that was true of everything in 3.5), a Warblade was literally better than a Fighter or Barbarian in every way. I can't do that in 5e; things are already well balanced. If I want to give a Fighter pseudo-casting power, I have to take something away. If I want to give a Wizard more melee power, I have to take something away. If I want powerful maneuvers, they can't be at will. They just can't.


I'll agree with DeadMech. This essentially makes them spellcasters with (mostly) offensive, and generally more restricted spells. I think long rest class with daily resource pool is a counter-intuitive interpretation of martial adepts, as original martial adepts were pretty much "short rest" classes, even though 3.5e doesn't even have short rests, but they refreshed their maneuvers on per-encounter basis.
Short rest based SP might be closer, yeah. And to be honest it's probably more balanced; now that I think about it, every time I've looked at spell point casters (my Mystic and Sorcerer revisions), I've gone with a short rest refresh because it helps cut down on their nova potential.


Also for recovery and "Initiating Ability" - at low levels the recovery mechanic is pretty impactful, but it also wants you to have 18 in your WIS/INT/CHA which is pretty annoying, but later on recovery becomes pretty meh because of the way spell points scale - 2 points is equivalent of 1st level maneuver which isn't going to be much later on. That's it until level 18, but most games don't go that far, so I feel like point recovery simply doesn't scale well.

I balanced it against a score of 14, improving to 16 at level 4, 18 at level 12, and 20 at level 16, which seemed reasonable for a secondary score. The Warblade and Crusader recovery mechanisms can be expected to trigger about twice over an adventuring day (6 encounters at 3 rounds each); the Swordsage about three times, to make up for their weaker fighting ability. You come out about 1 point ahead of base spell points for the first level or two, then smooth out to comparable or slightly behind.


As for other uses of Initiating ability - Warblade seems to have the best usage for it, provided there are some ways to get advantage reliably. Bonus to initiative can be nice, I guess, but I don't think it's as useful as it would be in 3.5e. And Crusader doesn't have any features that work of Initiating Ability. Then there's manevuer DC, but that depends on maneuvers that use save DC in the first place, since any to-hit maneuver would be keyed off different ability, unlike spells.

I'm still going back-and-forth about whether or not to use Str/Dex for maneuver DCs. On the one hand, other spellcasters (my rough balance point) don't have split stats like that; on the other, non-Hexblade gish subclasses (my tighter balance point) do.

[DeTess]

I'm still going back-and-forth about whether or not to use Str/Dex for maneuver DCs. On the one hand, other spellcasters (my rough balance point) don't have split stats like that; on the other, non-Hexblade gish subclasses (my tighter balance point) do.

But don't most of those have a pretty heavy focus on self-buffs over offensive spells with DC's? I think the only offensive spell I cast with some regularity on my conquest sorcadin was hold person, the rest was smites or buffs.

[Kuu Lightwing]

That was 3.5, this is 5e-- what was balanced in one is not necessarily balanced in the other. The original ToB classes were straight upgrades to the PHB martial classes-- outside of highly specific builds (because that was true of everything in 3.5), a Warblade was literally better than a Fighter or Barbarian in every way. I can't do that in 5e; things are already well balanced. If I want to give a Fighter pseudo-casting power, I have to take something away. If I want to give a Wizard more melee power, I have to take something away. If I want powerful maneuvers, they can't be at will. They just can't.

I think it is possible to achieve the goal of a class that uses maneuvers most of the time and still have powerful maneuvers, just not _all_ the maneuvers would be powerful. Like I mentioned earlier you could so something like "Generator/Spender" dynamic where you have weaker maneuvers that give you resource and stronger maneuvers that spend the resource.

That approach also helps keeping low level maneuvers relevant - most of them might be "generators" with some "spenders" thrown in for early game use. You might also consider adding a manevuer change mechanic so you swap some of your "spenders" for new ones when they become obsolete, or maybe even an "upcast" mechanic for "spenders".

You can also have specialized maneuvers that work in certain circumstances - like for example Iron Heart had low level maneuver Steel Wind which allowed to make two attacks, but only at two different enemies. It's good when you fight multiple enemies, but you can't use it at all if there's only one in your reach.


I balanced it against a score of 14, improving to 16 at level 4, 18 at level 12, and 20 at level 16, which seemed reasonable for a secondary score. The Warblade and Crusader recovery mechanisms can be expected to trigger about twice over an adventuring day (6 encounters at 3 rounds each); the Swordsage about three times, to make up for their weaker fighting ability. You come out about 1 point ahead of base spell points for the first level or two, then smooth out to comparable or slightly behind.

Well it's just the recovery feels like a drop in a bucket at higher levels, while being comparatively strong at low levels, so in terms of the stat you would need it the most at lower levels. That again depends on the maneuvers of course, but I felt like it was worth noticing.



I'm still going back-and-forth about whether or not to use Str/Dex for maneuver DCs. On the one hand, other spellcasters (my rough balance point) don't have split stats like that; on the other, non-Hexblade gish subclasses (my tighter balance point) do.

Well, many maneuvers simply did not have save DCs, which makes the stat less useful in general, well depending on how do you port them of course. But in any case most of those would be of an "attack with a rider" variety, which already makes them somewhat less valuable (depending on the rider of course) cause they require two rolls for full effect.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think it is possible to achieve the goal of a class that uses maneuvers most of the time and still have powerful maneuvers, just not _all_ the maneuvers would be powerful. Like I mentioned earlier you could so something like "Generator/Spender" dynamic where you have weaker maneuvers that give you resource and stronger maneuvers that spend the resource.

That approach also helps keeping low level maneuvers relevant - most of them might be "generators" with some "spenders" thrown in for early game use. You might also consider adding a manevuer change mechanic so you swap some of your "spenders" for new ones when they become obsolete, or maybe even an "upcast" mechanic for "spenders".
Hmmm... that's not super close to the original Tome of Battle either, but it is interesting. Let me think out loud on paper as I type...

Your "generator" maneuvers would be equivalent to cantrips, particularly Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade-- at will weapon-attack-with-a-small-rider effects that give you SP when you use them. The trick would be calibrating them such that the SP trickle works out to about the right number of SP over the course of the day. The Warlock suggests that one max-level spell per encounter (up to 5th level) is appropriate. Encounters average about 3 rounds, I think, so two "generators" should give you enough SP for one max-level maneuver. Meaning they'll have to scale, which should be manageable. So at level one, you'd gain 1 SP for hitting someone with a cantrip, and at level nine you'd get ~4 SP. That's doable.

At higher levels... uh...hmm. I could make 6th-9th level maneuvers a semi-separate system like High Arcana, where each individual one is usable once/day. That's what I did with my short-rest Mystic rewrite. Or... thinking further, I like the idea of having some SP granted on completing a rest, at least at higher levels. That makes out-of-combat maneuvers easier to deal with, adds tactical flexibility, and lets you throw out leveled maneuvers at the start of a fight when you really need them. So maybe halve the recovery from "generator" maneuvers and grant half the total on finishing a rest. I kinda like that...

[Kuu Lightwing]

Hmmm... that's not super close to the original Tome of Battle either, but it is interesting. Let me think out loud on paper as I type...
Yea, it's not. It's actually stolen from video games, but I think it does fit if our goal being of using maneuvers all the time.


Your "generator" maneuvers would be equivalent to cantrips, particularly Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade-- at will weapon-attack-with-a-small-rider effects that give you SP when you use them. The trick would be calibrating them such that the SP trickle works out to about the right number of SP over the course of the day. The Warlock suggests that one max-level spell per encounter (up to 5th level) is appropriate. Encounters average about 3 rounds, I think, so two "generators" should give you enough SP for one max-level maneuver. Meaning they'll have to scale, which should be manageable. So at level one, you'd gain 1 SP for hitting someone with a cantrip, and at level nine you'd get ~4 SP. That's doable.

Yea, that's somewhat what I had in mind. There are not only damage maneuvers, so it might be worth toying with how much SP (by the way, with this mechanic, something like "Focus Points" would be more appropriate name) things like Iron Heart Surge(without the sun destroying powers of course) or Wall of Blades would cost. They are probably spenders, but I'm not sure if they should cost as much as "big guns".



At higher levels... uh...hmm. I could make 6th-9th level maneuvers a semi-separate system like High Arcana, where each individual one is usable once/day. That's what I did with my short-rest Mystic rewrite. Or... thinking further, I like the idea of having some SP granted on completing a rest, at least at higher levels. That makes out-of-combat maneuvers easier to deal with, adds tactical flexibility, and lets you throw out leveled maneuvers at the start of a fight when you really need them. So maybe halve the recovery from "generator" maneuvers and grant half the total on finishing a rest. I kinda like that...

I'm not sure we need to replicate all the spell levels. Whatever maneuvers there are, none of them will be Wish, Shapechange or honestly even Meteor Swarm. Even your interpretation of Time Stands Still is noticeably weaker than Meteor Swarm on one target, and considerably much less powerful on multiple targets, not to mention melee range. Plus we can tweak that as well. So we might stick to a more flat progression, although I guess we could use fewer levels. Say, doing 5 levels of maneuvers akin to Paladin, so making the Martial Adepts closer to half-casters I guess (which also makes some sense, since we build them on a martial chassis).

[Kane0]

Or dont stick to 9 levels at all. Many maneuvers were just scaled up versions of each other, you can cut those all down to one of each type that scale with you.
3.5 warlocks had four tiers instead of nine spell levels, you could do similar. Match it off prof bonus even, new tier every 4 levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean, yeah, but... I don't wanna :smalltongue: There are lots of ways to build a fighter-type character with multiple tiers of ability. I've explored (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328113-Barbarian-now-with-150-more-beef-%283-5-PEACH%29) a bunch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276280-GitP-Fighter-Fix-18343-3-Ziegander-Grod-Tag-Team-Action!) of them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240943-The-Savage-one-part-barbarian-one-part-druid-one-part-Wolverine-3-5-PEACH-WIP) in my (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307285-The-Myth-Tier-1-quot-Mundane-quot-Challenge-Accepted!) time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396248-The-Endocist-Synthesist-Summoner-as-a-Base-Class-%283-5-PEACH%29). And right now, with this project, what I want to make is a sword-wizard. And that's what I'ma do.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mkay, I think I've mathed it out. The Martial Adept will get a certain, finely-tuned number of Stamina Points on finishing a long or short rest. It won't be enough to use more than one top-level maneuver, though; instead, they'll have Basic Strikes-- cantrip style effects that take an action to use and, beginning at 3rd level, will grant you a certain number of SP-- 1 at first level, increasing to 2 at fifth, 3 at eleventh, and 4 at ninth. Not a fast enough rate to let you keep blowing through high-level maneuvers, but enough to get off around two top-level spells per short rest.



Level
Points/Basic Strike
Base SP/Short Rest


1
--
2


2
--
2


3
1
2


4
1
2


5
2
2


6
2
3


7
2
5


8
2
7


9
2
11


10
2
12


11
3
12


12
3
12


13
3
16


14
3
16


15
3
19


16
3
19


17
4
20


18
4
20


19
4
25


20
4
28






pts/short (base)
Half Short Rest
pts/short (generated)
Net
Diff


2
2

2
0


2
2

2
0


5
2
4
6
1


6
2
4
6
0


9
2
8
10
1


11
3
8
11
0


13
5
8
13
0


15
7
8
15
0


19
11
8
19
0


21
12
8
20
-1


24
12
12
24
0


24
12
12
24
0


28
16
12
28
0


28
16
12
28
0


31
19
12
31
0


31
19
12
31
0


36
20
16
36
0


36
20
16
36
0


41
25
16
41
0


44
28
16
44
0

[Kane0]

Does that mean they wont get extra attack?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Does that mean they wont get extra attack?

ToB has traditionally been an alternative to attacking multiple times (with the exception of the TWF focused Tiger Claw discipline). I'd be surprised if any of the subclasses got Extra Attack as a feature, but some of the Tiger Claw maneuvers will probably let you attack an extra time or two.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Does that mean they wont get extra attack?
Honestly, I can't decide. From a balance perspective, my gut says no, Blade-style cantrips will be plenty; from a thematic perspective, it seems weird for them not to get Extra Attack. And, like, the Bladesinger and Bladelock get away with it... I'm torn. Thoughts?

[Sigreid]

Honestly, I can't decide. From a balance perspective, my gut says no, Blade-style cantrips will be plenty; from a thematic perspective, it seems weird for them not to get Extra Attack. And, like, the Bladesinger and Bladelock get away with it... I'm torn. Thoughts?

I would give them 1 extra attack because without it they aren't really skilled fighters. Their special maneuvers would be an action, not an attack action though so it would be a you do one or the other situation. Assuming the attack maneuvers cant carry on to an advantage on 2 attacks next round.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I would give them 1 extra attack because without it they aren't really skilled fighters. Their special maneuvers would be an action, not an attack action though so it would be a you do one or the other situation. Assuming the attack maneuvers cant carry on to an advantage on 2 attacks next round.
The attack maneuvers will be their own action, yeah. I guess granting Extra Attack at 6th probably won't hurt.

Speaking of pseudo-cantrips, though... how's these looking? (I figure the SP regeneration will come from a separate feature, and will only work during combat to prevent downtime bag-of-rats shenanigans)


Scorching Strike
Desert Wind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

With a moment of focus, your blade begins to glow with heat. Make a weapon attack. If you hit, it deals damage as normal, and the target’s hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage dealt, as your white-hot weapon cauterizes the flesh.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 fire damage. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Sirocco Step
Desert Wind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You burst into motion with blinding speed. You may move up to your speed and make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Warding Blow
Devoted Spirit Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike at an enemy, forcing them away from your charges. Make a melee weapon attack and choose one ally within your reach. If it hits, it deals damage as normal. Hit or miss, until the beginning of your next turn, attacks against the chosen ally have disadvantage as long as the ally remains within yout reach.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 radiant damage. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Holy Smite
Devoted Spirit Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike a mighty blow against evil. Make a weapon attack. If you hit, it deals damage as normal, and if and your target is an undead or fiend, they take additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

At 5th level, the attack deals 1d8 radiant damage to all targets. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Focused Strike
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You launch an exquisitely timed attack, striking when your foe least expects it. Make a weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and the target cannot add their Dexterity bonus to their AC against this attack.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Discordant Strike
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike at the perfect moment to disrupt your foe’s rhythm. Make a weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and the next attack against the target has advantage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Iron Perfection
Iron Heart Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You close your mind to all distractions. Make a weapon attack, ignoring any Disadvantage you’d normally suffer. If it hits, it deals damage as normal.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Flowing Steel
Iron Heart Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike with fluid grace, grazing a second foe before your first feels the blow. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, the target is damaged as normal, and you may compare the result of your attack roll to a second target within reach. If the attack would also hit them, they take damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, whichever you used to make the initial attack.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Flowing Defense
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: 1 round

You focus on evasion. Until the end of your next turn, attacks against you have disadvantage. If you are hit during this time, you may use your reaction to reduce the damage by an amount equal to your Dexterity bonus, to a minimum of zero.

At 5th level, you may roll 1d8 and add the result to the damage reduction. You may roll one additional d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Rounding Kata
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You step and strike, step and strike in a perfect rhthym. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, you may move 5ft without provoking oppotunity attacks, and your target is moved 5ft in a directon of your choice.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon, and the distances increase by 5ft. This damage increases by 1d8 and distances by another 5ft at 11th and 17th level.

Shrouded Stab
Shadow Hand Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike and vanish, fading into the shadows. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and you may move up to 10ft without provoking oppotunity attacks.

Beginning at 5th level, this attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. THis damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Backstab
Shadow Hand Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You take advantage of an ally’s movements to hide your own. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and if your target has another enemy adjacent to it, you deal additional damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Landslide Tackle
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike you foe with the full weight of your body. Make a melee weapon attack using your unarmed strike. For the purposes of this attack, it counts as having a damage die of 1d8. If you hit, the target is pushed 5ft.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 bludgeoning damage, and pushes your target an additional 5ft. This damage and distance increase by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Strength of Stone
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: 1 round

You channel the unyielding strength of the mountains. Until the end of your next turn, you have resistance to all damage.

Pack Tactics
Tiger Claw Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You know how to strike as one with your comrades. Make a melee weapon attack. If one of your allies is adjacent to your target, you have advantage on the attack. If you hit, you deal normal damage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Fangs of the Wolf
Tiger Claw Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Light Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You attack in a blinding flurry of speed. Make a melee weapon attack using a light weapon. If it hits, it deals normal damage, and you may use a bonus action to make a second melee weapon attack with it, also dealing normal damage.

At 5th level, your first attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Inspiring Attack
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You charge into the fray, cheering your allies by your example. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals normal damage. Hit or miss, one ally within 30ft gains may move up to their speed without provoking opportunity attacks.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Rally the Troops
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

Your exhort your allies to new heights. All allies within 30ft gain temporary hit points equal to your proficiency bonus. Any remaining temporary hit points are lost at the beginning of your next turn.

At 5th level, you grant each all an additional 1d8 temporary hit points. This increases by 1d8 at 11th and 15th level.

[Kane0]

I would vote no Extra Attack. You want to provide every incentive to use ToB stuff rather than the default attack action and that is design space you can use elsewhere. Some At-Will maneuvers would be the logical thing to implement in place of it.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

The attack maneuvers will be their own action, yeah. I guess granting Extra Attack at 6th probably won't hurt.

Speaking of pseudo-cantrips, though... how's these looking? (I figure the SP regeneration will come from a separate feature, and will only work during combat to prevent downtime bag-of-rats shenanigans)


Scorching Strike
Desert Wind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

With a moment of focus, your blade begins to glow with heat. Make a weapon attack. If you hit, it deals damage as normal, and the target’s hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage dealt, as your white-hot weapon cauterizes the flesh.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 fire damage. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Sirocco Step
Desert Wind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You burst into motion with blinding speed. You may move up to your speed and make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Warding Blow
Devoted Spirit Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike at an enemy, forcing them away from your charges. Make a melee weapon attack and choose one ally within your reach. If it hits, it deals damage as normal. Hit or miss, until the beginning of your next turn, attacks against the chosen ally have disadvantage as long as the ally remains within yout reach.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 radiant damage. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Holy Smite
Devoted Spirit Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike a mighty blow against evil. Make a weapon attack. If you hit, it deals damage as normal, and if and your target is an undead or fiend, they take additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

At 5th level, the attack deals 1d8 radiant damage to all targets. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Focused Strike
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You launch an exquisitely timed attack, striking when your foe least expects it. Make a weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and the target cannot add their Dexterity bonus to their AC against this attack.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Discordant Strike
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike at the perfect moment to disrupt your foe’s rhythm. Make a weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and the next attack against the target has advantage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Iron Perfection
Iron Heart Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You close your mind to all distractions. Make a weapon attack, ignoring any Disadvantage you’d normally suffer. If it hits, it deals damage as normal.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Flowing Steel
Iron Heart Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike with fluid grace, grazing a second foe before your first feels the blow. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, the target is damaged as normal, and you may compare the result of your attack roll to a second target within reach. If the attack would also hit them, they take damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, whichever you used to make the initial attack.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Flowing Defense
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: 1 round

You focus on evasion. Until the end of your next turn, attacks against you have disadvantage. If you are hit during this time, you may use your reaction to reduce the damage by an amount equal to your Dexterity bonus, to a minimum of zero.

At 5th level, you may roll 1d8 and add the result to the damage reduction. You may roll one additional d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Rounding Kata
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You step and strike, step and strike in a perfect rhthym. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, you may move 5ft without provoking oppotunity attacks, and your target is moved 5ft in a directon of your choice.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon, and the distances increase by 5ft. This damage increases by 1d8 and distances by another 5ft at 11th and 17th level.

Shrouded Stab
Shadow Hand Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike and vanish, fading into the shadows. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and you may move up to 10ft without provoking oppotunity attacks.

Beginning at 5th level, this attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. THis damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Backstab
Shadow Hand Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You take advantage of an ally’s movements to hide your own. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and if your target has another enemy adjacent to it, you deal additional damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Landslide Tackle
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike you foe with the full weight of your body. Make a melee weapon attack using your unarmed strike. For the purposes of this attack, it counts as having a damage die of 1d8. If you hit, the target is pushed 5ft.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 bludgeoning damage, and pushes your target an additional 5ft. This damage and distance increase by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Strength of Stone
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: 1 round

You channel the unyielding strength of the mountains. Until the end of your next turn, you have resistance to all damage.

Pack Tactics
Tiger Claw Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You know how to strike as one with your comrades. Make a melee weapon attack. If one of your allies is adjacent to your target, you have advantage on the attack. If you hit, you deal normal damage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Fangs of the Wolf
Tiger Claw Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Light Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You attack in a blinding flurry of speed. Make a melee weapon attack using a light weapon. If it hits, it deals normal damage, and you may use a bonus action to make a second melee weapon attack with it, also dealing normal damage.

At 5th level, your first attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Inspiring Attack
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You charge into the fray, cheering your allies by your example. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals normal damage. Hit or miss, one ally within 30ft gains may move up to their speed without provoking opportunity attacks.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Rally the Troops
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

Your exhort your allies to new heights. All allies within 30ft gain temporary hit points equal to your proficiency bonus. Any remaining temporary hit points are lost at the beginning of your next turn.

At 5th level, you grant each all an additional 1d8 temporary hit points. This increases by 1d8 at 11th and 15th level.




I think there need to be a minor/psado-healing for devoted spirit.
I liked the white raven ones.
I focused mostly on white raven and devoted spirit as I know them the best and don't want to give bad info on the others.


I am with Kane0, there is no need for extra attack. The mini maneuvers need to be good enough to not use the attack action.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm... here's my thoughts on Extra Attack: It doesn't synergize at all with maneuvers, and while it's never a bad thing to have additional options, I think I'd prefer an extra option that's a) more unique/flavorful and b) more synergistic.

Onto the at-will maneuvers. I like them; in fact, I like them a lot. I was initially worried that they were too strong compared to cantrips, but on reflection being able to dip Martial Initiator for a couple of maneuvers that boost your tactical options isn't really any more powerful than dipping Rogue 2 or Battlemaster Fighter 3 or Warlock 2-3 (or etc.).

The devil is in the details, though; here are a couple of maneuvers whose specific wording caught my eye:


Warding Blow
Devoted Spirit Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike at an enemy, forcing them away from your charges. Make a melee weapon attack and choose one ally within your reach. If it hits, it deals damage as normal. Hit or miss, until the beginning of your next turn, attacks against the chosen ally have disadvantage as long as the ally remains within yout reach.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 radiant damage. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

As written, this shelters the ally from all attacks, not just the ones made by the target of the strike. That's pretty cool if it was the intent, but it seemed worth mentioning in case that wasn't the intent.


Holy Smite
Devoted Spirit Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike a mighty blow against evil. Make a weapon attack. If you hit, it deals damage as normal, and if and your target is an undead or fiend, they take additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

At 5th level, the attack deals 1d8 radiant damage to all targets. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Another possible case of 'feature not a bug', as written the extra damage from being level 5+ looks like it occurs regardless of whether the strike hits or misses. (Side Note: is there any way for this maneuver to have multiple targets? Like, could a Sorcerer use Twin Spell on a maneuver?)


Flowing Steel
Iron Heart Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike with fluid grace, grazing a second foe before your first feels the blow. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, the target is damaged as normal, and you may compare the result of your attack roll to a second target within reach. If the attack would also hit them, they take damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, whichever you used to make the initial attack.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Does the extra damage for being level 5+ add to the second 'attack', too? I ask because for the later Tiger Claw maneuver it explicitly only applies to the first attack. Or can the Martial Initiator choose which attack gets the extra damage?


Landslide Tackle
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike you foe with the full weight of your body. Make a melee weapon attack using your unarmed strike. For the purposes of this attack, it counts as having a damage die of 1d8. If you hit, the target is pushed 5ft.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 bludgeoning damage, and pushes your target an additional 5ft. This damage and distance increase by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

As written, the distance also increases by d8s at higher levels. Which is kind of cool, but probably not the intent.


Inspiring Attack
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You charge into the fray, cheering your allies by your example. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals normal damage. Hit or miss, one ally within 30ft gains may move up to their speed without provoking opportunity attacks.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

No complaint here, I just really like this one. Reminds me of 4e's Warlord, my love for which is well documented.

[D-naras]

Inspiring Attack
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You charge into the fray, cheering your allies by your example. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals normal damage. Hit or miss, one ally within 30ft gains may move up to their speed without provoking opportunity attacks.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.



All these look really cool. I just think that this particular pseudo-cantrips steps all over the battle master's similar maneuver, Maneuvering attack. That one allows for 1 ally to move half their speed as a reaction without provoking. If you intend to have the class balanced with the OG Fighter sub-classes, maybe tone it down a bit?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

All these look really cool. I just think that this particular pseudo-cantrips steps all over the battle master's similar maneuver, Maneuvering attack. That one allows for 1 ally to move half their speed as a reaction without provoking. If you intend to have the class balanced with the OG Fighter sub-classes, maybe tone it down a bit?

The BM do get to do it as one of the attacks, not instead of an attack and get extra damage for it.

The BM one is already superior IMO.

[D-naras]

The BM do get to do it as one of the attacks, not instead of an attack and get extra damage for it.

The BM one is already superior IMO.

That's true, but keep in mind that the BM gets to do it only on a hit. In any case, I think the BM's maneuver is weak and this one's power level is closer to my taste. Just felt like pointing it out to Grod, in case he missed it.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Some good ideas, but I also have some questions about those maneuvers. First of all, from what I see, none of them scale akin to Eldritch blast, which means they scale worse than other martial classes, and don't benefit as much from better weapons.

Like for example with a Greatsword and maxed STR if I had an Extra Attack I'd do 4d6 + 10 damage or 24 on average, not taking into account various feats. Using pretty much any of these maneuvers would make it 2d6 + 5 + 3d8 at level 17, which is 25.5, which is slightly better, but it's level 17 and assuming that by that time I don't have any magic weapons which scale better with Extra Attack. Before level 17 (which is pretty damn likely where the game would end) you would be noticeably behind in damage compared to plain old Extra attack. Even with 1d8 weapon, 2d8 + 10 would be better than 3d8 + 5.

I know you based it off cantrips like Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, but aren't those generally used with features like War Magic? Whether you give Extra Attack to the class or not, I think depending on the secondary effect, some of the "forms" should scale like Eldritch Blast by granting additional attacks, not just by adding dice.

Some notes:


Scorching Strike
Desert Wind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

With a moment of focus, your blade begins to glow with heat. Make a weapon attack. If you hit, it deals damage as normal, and the target’s hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage dealt, as your white-hot weapon cauterizes the flesh.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 fire damage. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Feels like a very situational effect (when does the maximum hp really matter if _not_ used on the players?) and it also doesn't say how to get rid of this effect. It also doesn't do Fire damage until level 5 which I find somewhat weird, given the fluff you chose for this.




Focused Strike
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You launch an exquisitely timed attack, striking when your foe least expects it. Make a weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and the target cannot add their Dexterity bonus to their AC against this attack.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.


I don't like this all that much. Flat-footed is not a 5e mechanic, and DEX isn't always a part of the AC either. This is generally handled as Advantage, but I do understand that it might be a bit too good if you were to use it. Still, I wouldn't use "cannot add DEX to AC" as a mechanic.


Iron Perfection
Iron Heart Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You close your mind to all distractions. Make a weapon attack, ignoring any Disadvantage you’d normally suffer. If it hits, it deals damage as normal.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

This sounds more like a Diamond Mind maneuver to me, especially given how it allows to strike invisible foes with no penalty somewhat mirroring Hearing the Air stance. And also, need clarification on how it works if I have both disadvantage and advantage that would normally cancel out.


Flowing Defense
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: 1 round

You focus on evasion. Until the end of your next turn, attacks against you have disadvantage. If you are hit during this time, you may use your reaction to reduce the damage by an amount equal to your Dexterity bonus, to a minimum of zero.

At 5th level, you may roll 1d8 and add the result to the damage reduction. You may roll one additional d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Don't like this at all. The damage reduction eats a reaction, the maneuver itself eats an action, so it's just a slightly better Dodge. Setting Sun is a Swordsage discipline, which was a monk/rogue archetype and both of them have Dodge as bonus action. The Deflect Missiles effect should probably just be a separate maneuver.


Landslide Tackle
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike you foe with the full weight of your body. Make a melee weapon attack using your unarmed strike. For the purposes of this attack, it counts as having a damage die of 1d8. If you hit, the target is pushed 5ft.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 bludgeoning damage, and pushes your target an additional 5ft. This damage and distance increase by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Do I need to have a hand free or I can make an unarmed attack while holding a greatsword? Even if I could I find this rather weak, cause I'm likely to use a better weapon than 1d8, and I'm not sure if pushback is a good enough tradeoff for this. Also, despite Stone Dragon being a "brute force" discipline, this maneuver works off DEX just as well as it works off STR.



Rally the Troops
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

Your exhort your allies to new heights. All allies within 30ft gain temporary hit points equal to your proficiency bonus. Any remaining temporary hit points are lost at the beginning of your next turn.

At 5th level, you grant each all an additional 1d8 temporary hit points. This increases by 1d8 at 11th and 15th level.

Not sure how I feel about this. Few temp hit points as an action feels somewhat weak, because it's the same issue as healing out of combat - wouldn't it just be better to kill the enemy faster?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think there need to be a minor/psado-healing for devoted spirit.
Rally the Troops not enough?


Onto the at-will maneuvers. I like them; in fact, I like them a lot. I was initially worried that they were too strong compared to cantrips, but on reflection being able to dip Martial Initiator for a couple of maneuvers that boost your tactical options isn't really any more powerful than dipping Rogue 2 or Battlemaster Fighter 3 or Warlock 2-3 (or etc.).

The goal was to be around par with Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade, if not a bit weaker. If anything is too strong compared to cantrips, I'd like to know so I can fix it.


As written, this shelters the ally from all attacks, not just the ones made by the target of the strike. That's pretty cool if it was the intent, but it seemed worth mentioning in case that wasn't the intent.

That's intentional.


Another possible case of 'feature not a bug', as written the extra damage from being level 5+ looks like it occurs regardless of whether the strike hits or misses. (Side Note: is there any way for this maneuver to have multiple targets? Like, could a Sorcerer use Twin Spell on a maneuver?)

It should happen if the target is, say, Humanoid, but not on a miss. (I don't think there are any ways to multi-target it, unless I write a Maneuver or something that does so. It's not a spell, so Twin Spell wouldn't apply).


Does the extra damage for being level 5+ add to the second 'attack', too? I ask because for the later Tiger Claw maneuver it explicitly only applies to the first attack. Or can the Martial Initiator choose which attack gets the extra damage?

It does-- Flowing Steel is basically just Green Flame Blade.


As written, the distance also increases by d8s at higher levels. Which is kind of cool, but probably not the intent.

Whoops-- distance should increase by a flat 5ft per rank.


All these look really cool. I just think that this particular pseudo-cantrips steps all over the battle master's similar maneuver, Maneuvering attack. That one allows for 1 ally to move half their speed as a reaction without provoking. If you intend to have the class balanced with the OG Fighter sub-classes, maybe tone it down a bit?
I'll drop it to half speed.


Some good ideas, but I also have some questions about those maneuvers. First of all, from what I see, none of them scale akin to Eldritch blast, which means they scale worse than other martial classes, and don't benefit as much from better weapons.

Like for example with a Greatsword and maxed STR if I had an Extra Attack I'd do 4d6 + 10 damage or 24 on average, not taking into account various feats. Using pretty much any of these maneuvers would make it 2d6 + 5 + 3d8 at level 17, which is 25.5, which is slightly better, but it's level 17 and assuming that by that time I don't have any magic weapons which scale better with Extra Attack. Before level 17 (which is pretty damn likely where the game would end) you would be noticeably behind in damage compared to plain old Extra attack. Even with 1d8 weapon, 2d8 + 10 would be better than 3d8 + 5.

I know you based it off cantrips like Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, but aren't those generally used with features like War Magic? Whether you give Extra Attack to the class or not, I think depending on the secondary effect, some of the "forms" should scale like Eldritch Blast by granting additional attacks, not just by adding dice.
My understanding is that Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade come out a bit ahead of Extra Attack if their conditional damage is triggered, and a bit behind if not. That was sort of the goal here as well; I want the Forms to be a bit weaker in terms than a normal attack in terms of raw damage-- they're not where most of your power is coming from.



Feels like a very situational effect (when does the maximum hp really matter if _not_ used on the players?) and it also doesn't say how to get rid of this effect. It also doesn't do Fire damage until level 5 which I find somewhat weird, given the fluff you chose for this.

Yeah; I was looking for a graceful version of "you can't heal the damage from this," but you're right; this probably isn't that.


I don't like this all that much. Flat-footed is not a 5e mechanic, and DEX isn't always a part of the AC either. This is generally handled as Advantage, but I do understand that it might be a bit too good if you were to use it. Still, I wouldn't use "cannot add DEX to AC" as a mechanic.

Fair. I'll rethink it.


This sounds more like a Diamond Mind maneuver to me, especially given how it allows to strike invisible foes with no penalty somewhat mirroring Hearing the Air stance. And also, need clarification on how it works if I have both disadvantage and advantage that would normally cancel out.

...you are correct. I'll replace Focused Strike with this and think of something else.


Don't like this at all. The damage reduction eats a reaction, the maneuver itself eats an action, so it's just a slightly better Dodge. Setting Sun is a Swordsage discipline, which was a monk/rogue archetype and both of them have Dodge as bonus action. The Deflect Missiles effect should probably just be a separate maneuver.

I'l think of something else.


Do I need to have a hand free or I can make an unarmed attack while holding a greatsword? Even if I could I find this rather weak, cause I'm likely to use a better weapon than 1d8, and I'm not sure if pushback is a good enough tradeoff for this. Also, despite Stone Dragon being a "brute force" discipline, this maneuver works off DEX just as well as it works off STR.

You are meant to be able to do it while wielding a two-handed weapon. Would a longer push be worth it?


Not sure how I feel about this. Few temp hit points as an action feels somewhat weak, because it's the same issue as healing out of combat - wouldn't it just be better to kill the enemy faster?
Maybe it would be better as "make an attack and grant one ally temp HP?"

[8wGremlin]

Just wanted to say this is looking very good and way better than any offical Unearthed Arcana.
- thank you can keep up the good work!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just wanted to say this is looking very good and way better than any offical Unearthed Arcana.
- thank you can keep up the good work!
:smallredface: Thanks!

I've added updated Forms to the original post.

[Kane0]

So how are you thinking of handling stances at the moment? Something in place of Fighting Styles?

[Kuu Lightwing]

My understanding is that Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade come out a bit ahead of Extra Attack if their conditional damage is triggered, and a bit behind if not. That was sort of the goal here as well; I want the Forms to be a bit weaker in terms than a normal attack in terms of raw damage-- they're not where most of your power is coming from.

Well, for many classes with only one Extra Attack main power does not come from Extra attack, or there are features that make Extra Attack stronger still. Say Paladin has Extra Attack, and on top of that +1d8 to each of the attack, and on top of that Smites and some spells. I think some "Forms" that do multiple attacks won't hurt for "bread and butter" maneuvers.



You are meant to be able to do it while wielding a two-handed weapon. Would a longer push be worth it?

I don't know on this one honestly. It surely better than Shove action, and pushing people around is a bit situational, so maybe it might be an okay situational "form" for when you need it.


Maybe it would be better as "make an attack and grant one ally temp HP?"
Maybe, yes.

[Frozenstep]

This is super anime and I love it.

As for actual commentary, the forms are looking pretty interesting, but when do you get them and how many do you get?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, for many classes with only one Extra Attack main power does not come from Extra attack, or there are features that make Extra Attack stronger still. Say Paladin has Extra Attack, and on top of that +1d8 to each of the attack, and on top of that Smites and some spells. I think some "Forms" that do multiple attacks won't hurt for "bread and butter" maneuvers.
True...


This is super anime and I love it.

As for actual commentary, the forms are looking pretty interesting, but when do you get them and how many do you get?
Thanks! As it happens, you're in luck-- I just updated the original post with a complete base class writeup. (Basically, you get maneuvers and forms known as a sorcerer gets spells and cantrips)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Still reading through the class, but one typo caught my eye: the description of the Sublime Path says each sub-class gets a new feature at 5th level, but it looks like they all get it at 6th level.

EDIT: Looks good! I found one other typo (in the high level maneuver section it goes "6th level of above" instead of "6th level or above").

I'm a little iffy on the 'only one high level maneuver per short rest' mechanic (it seems weak even compared to Warlock casting), but since I haven't actually seen those maneuvers it's very possible that worry is unfounded.

I do think that since Tiger Claw is traditionally the TWF discipline, Wolf Fangs form should let you make the second attack with a different light weapon you're holding if you want to.

Uh, yeah, I think that's everything. Looks awesome, can't wait 'til it's done and I can try it out.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I see a significant problem with class design as written.

At level 5 I can learn maneuvers up to level 3, but... even though I could learn them I only can have enough stamina points to use level 1 maneuvers. I can't even use level 2 ones because they require 3 points and I can only have two - and I already can pick level 3 maneuvers known. The level where I finally am able to use my highest level maneuvers as soon as I acquire them is level 11.

(BTW, with the ability to regain them mid-combat, I'd rename them to something like Focus Points)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Rally the Troops not enough?



Yes, half of the Divine Spirit was Healing (yourself/allies) by biting your enemies.

I think it is missing, maybe for balance and preventing yu-yu healing make it so it can't heal the dieing and only make them stable or do to them nothing.

Make it maybe 1d4 up to 4d4 healing to a single target after you hit an enemy in combat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I see a significant problem with class design as written.

At level 5 I can learn maneuvers up to level 3, but... even though I could learn them I only can have enough stamina points to use level 1 maneuvers. I can't even use level 2 ones because they require 3 points and I can only have two - and I already can pick level 3 maneuvers known. The level where I finally am able to use my highest level maneuvers as soon as I acquire them is level 11.

(BTW, with the ability to regain them mid-combat, I'd rename them to something like Focus Points)
Well, yeah. You need the generation from By the Sword. It explicitly lets you go above the starting amount. That's the overall design here-- Form, Form, big leveled maneuver.

(Focus Points is good though, I like that)


Yes, half of the Divine Spirit was Healing (yourself/allies) by biting your enemies.

I think it is missing, maybe for balance and preventing yu-yu healing make it so it can't heal the dieing and only make them stable or do to them nothing.

Make it maybe 1d4 up to 4d4 healing to a single target after you hit an enemy in combat.
I'm not going to put any healing in the Forms, but leveled Devoted Spirit maneuvers will include fully effective heals, don't worry.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Well, yeah. You need the generation from By the Sword. It explicitly lets you go above the starting amount. That's the overall design here-- Form, Form, big leveled maneuver.

(Focus Points is good though, I like that)

Oh, I missed that part of the feature. However, is there no limit to how many points you can have then? I don't even see anything that resets the points at all, so if I'm not in a particularly hard combat I guess I can just stock on points then?

[Frozenstep]

Ok, looking over things with a more critical eye...

I'm not sure I like the balance of generating as many stamina as you want as long as the combat is easy. I see that you're trying to avoid it being exploitable, but it might still encourage strange behavior. Such as trying to convince teammates to leave the last enemy alive so you can get another form off before combat ends. Them coming back on a short rest helps, but then having levels where you need to go above your starting stamina points to use your best maneuver makes it worse.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I can go back and see if I can find a progression of base-points-to-generated-points that fits the curve of expected points/short rest and gives you enough base points for a single max level maneuver. I'm not sure it's doable, but I can play with it a bit more (I would definitely lose the neat 5/11/17 scaling for points/Form).
If I push the regeneration all the way back to 5th, I can still manage a (weird-looking) progression that leaves you enough base points to use a top level maneuver, while still getting some back from forms. It skews heavily towards the short rest pool, though-- thoughts? It leaves you with pretty much exactly the expected number of points/short rest, assuming two encounters where you use two Forms each.




Level

Adjusted Progression
Generation



1
2



2

2



3

5



4
6



5
5
1


6
7
1


7
9

1


8
11
1


9
15
1


10
16
1


11
16
2


12
16
2


13
20
2


14
20
2


15
23
2


16
23
2


17
24
3


18
24
3


19
29
3


20
32
3

[BloodSnake'sCha]

How about something like the Warlock short rest slots?
Make the level 6-9 cost more then you get so they will still need some charge up.

[Frozenstep]

A cap makes sense. It would be awkward if fighting a bunch of easy battles at the start of the day only made it so that you were much stronger and better prepared for the tougher fight at the end of the day. Being prepared enough to cast your highest level maneuver once right away is a fair reward for holding onto resources. No need for anything more.

Resetting on a long rest is a good call, but resetting on a short rest might be awkward. Say you enter a combat, and then your wizard does hypnotic pattern and you freely take the time to use forms and build up a bit of stamina for the next combat, so you'll be ready. Then you continue forward, and get caught in a trap and everyone in the party loses a bunch of health. Now you want to short rest, but you're also tempted not to do so because you'd lose your readiness. Then again, a lot of spells last 10 minutes and could also fall victim to being wasted in the same way, and they don't even have the option of avoiding the short rest.

I kind of don't want to give up on the idea of generating points just yet, it's an interesting design.

Perhaps something like a once-per-short-rest or once-per-initiative ability to recover SP as part of using a form, with some incentive to actually use it in battle (some bonus damage or something?), just so that while using outside of combat is an option if you want to have a maneuver ready for turn 1, but you lose out on something.

[D-naras]

If points don't work, why not simplify even more and have maneuvers be useable on the round after using a form? As you level up, have low level maneuvers count as forms to keep them relevant. Maybe allow the use of high level maneuvers as a class feature under special circumstances, thematic to each subclass.

[Kane0]

Battle rhythm! The flow and momentum of combat!

You don't have a resting pool of rest-based points like a monk, you always start a fight with 0. At the start of each of your turns you gain some points (scale it by level if you like).
You can gain extra points by landing crits, felling enemies, using certain forms, etc. This is where the class and subclass features come in.
Every turn you spend not attacking or using maneuvers loses you some points. Like barbarian rage.

So your resources act sort of opposite to everyone else. Where others start the day with all their resources and spend them as the encounters progress, you start with nothing in each encounter and build up resources to use before it ends with no carryover (unless the next encounter is in quick succession).

[Grod_The_Giant]

I can go back and see if I can find a progression of base-points-to-generated-points that fits the curve of expected points/short rest and gives you enough base points for a single max level maneuver. I'm not sure it's doable, but I can play with it a bit more (I would definitely lose the neat 5/11/17 scaling for points/Form).
If I push the regeneration all the way back to 5th, I can still manage a (weird-looking) progression that leaves you enough base points to use a top level maneuver, while still getting some back from forms. It skews heavily towards the short rest pool, though-- thoughts? It leaves you with pretty much exactly the expected number of points/short rest, assuming two encounters where you use two Forms each.



Level

Adjusted Progression
Generation


1

2



2
2



3

5



4

6



5
5
1


6
7
1


7
9
1


8
11
1


9
15
1


10
16
1


11
16
2


12
16
2


13
20
2


14
20
2


15
23
2


16
23
2


17
24
3


18
24
3


19
29
3


20
32
3

[Kane0]

What's the intended difference between low and high level maneuvers? Could they auto-scale to max in order to make things easier?

[Bjarkmundur]

A bit late to the party, oh well. As usual, I have some questions :D

Holy Smite
I always get some warning bells when reading strict damage upgrades for the earlier levels. Is this ok?

Focused Strike
You sure you don't mean 'advantage'?

Iron Perfection
A beautifully design ability. Love it!

Flowing Defense
Seems strong, might be ok. Thoughts?

Landslide Tackle
Prone would be nice. Or just say "successfully Shove the target as long as its size is...". Referencing existing mechanics is always a nice way to keep things short.

Strength of Stone
Not all piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage?

Pack Tactics
Seems strong, might be ok. Thoughts?

Rally the Troops
The damage doesn't scale, which worries me.

By the Sword
So after four forms and two short rests, you're overbalanced? *NY-mobster accent* It feels a bit to close to comfort for me, boss.

The fellas are right. As interesting this is, it doesn't encourage very interesting gameplay. There might be more interesting way to introduce a mechanic using the same theme, such as a long ability that triggers when you go down below half hit points, at which point you can regain stamina. It fits the bill, is balance-able and stays within the theme of regenerating resources through combat. It is, however, far less exploitable, doesn't encourage murder-hoboing, and can introduce a nice bit of decision-making. You could even have it x-times per long rest.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What's the intended difference between low and high level maneuvers? Could they auto-scale to max in order to make things easier?
As spells. They're going to be balanced against spells of the same level (9th level maneuvers are gonna be nuts).

Regeneration-vs-set-pool is all about trade-offs. Regeneration will feel more like the original version, but will pretty much inevitably have weird incentives and exploits. The question is if the feel is worth the wonkiness.

[Garfunion]

I really like what I am seeing in this class.


Battle rhythm! The flow and momentum of combat!

So your resources act sort of opposite to everyone else. Where others start the day with all their resources and spend them as the encounters progress, you start with nothing in each encounter and build up resources to use before it ends with no carryover (unless the next encounter is in quick succession).
I also like this idea too. Perhaps a resource system similar to Magic of The Gathering/Hearthstone, depending on how high of a level you are in the class determines how many additional points you gain each round. You can also add some class abilities at later levels to provide temporary points to be spent.

[Grod_The_Giant]

<Rereads the last few pages of thread>

So. Uh. Hmm. No real agreement on the best way to handle stamina points. So... all things considered... I think I'm ready to make a final call: a long-rest pool (which honestly feels less restrictive than a small short rest pool), with a limited amount of regeneration from Forms (which lets you feel a bit like the old classes still). If it's not to your taste, feel free to build alternate progressions and I'll happily include them in the main post. The real work will be the maneuvers, after all.

Speaking of... next up, maneuvers one school at a time.



Level
Adjusted Progression


1
4


2
6


3
14


4
16


5
16


6
20


7
26


8
32


9
42


10
43


11
49


12
49


13
59


14
59


15
59


16
59


17
71


18
78


19
87


20
97

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Any new progress?

[noob]

Heya, all. Fresh off the heels of my psionics rewrite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593739-Psionics-Reloaded-the-Psion-and-Psychic-Warrior-ALL-DISCIPLINES-NOW-COMPLETE-(PEACH)), I'm considering tackling another subsystem: the Tome of Battle. For those who don't know, the ToB was... well, depending on your point of view, it was either a way to give martial characters awesome special moves that kept up better with spells, or it was anime garbage that turned fighters into wizards. Regardless, the book featured "maneuvers," sorted into schools and divided into nine levels like spells, but useable (roughly) per-encounter and without specific slot levels. I'm going to try and stick fairly closely to the existing systems and balance maneuvers as if they were melee-ranged spells of a corresponding level, rather than try to build an entirely new mechanic into the now much narrow gap between spellcasters and martials. (This'll be for people who want more complicated fighter types, not a matter of party balance).



The Martial Adept
Those who devote their lives to studying some aspect of the Sublime Way-- the secret lore that teaches a fighter how to meld their inner strength, training, and discipline into the perfect weapon-- are known as Martial Adepts. All are skilled in personal combat, but they rely on perception, learning, and willpower, in addition to pure physical aptitude for battle. Martial adepts seek to fuse tangible physical prowess with utmost control of the mind and spirit.

Straddling the line between the purely mundane and the openly magical, the techniques of the Sublime Way are unique, representing small moments of clarity, self-knowledge, piety, or perfection. Whether by tapping into a cosmic balance, inner ki, or raw physical ability, Martial Adepts can achieve spectacular results.

HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: 1d8 per Martial Adept level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per level after 1st

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: Light and medium armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution
Skills: Choose two skills from Acrobatics, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, and Survival

EQUIPMENT

(a) scalemail or (b) leather armor
(a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial weapons
(a) a longbow and 20 arrows or (b) four javelins
(a) a dungeoneer's pack or (b) an explorer's pack




Level
Proficiency Bonus
Special
Focus Points
Forms Known
Maneuvers Known
Highest Level Maneuver


1
+2
Sublime Path, Maneuvers
4
4
2
1st


2
+2
Path Feature
6
4
3
1st


3
+2

14
4
4
2nd


4
+2
Ability Score Increase
16
5
5
2nd


5
+3
By the Sword
16
5
6
3rd


6
+3
Path Feature
20
5
7
3rd


7
+3
--
26
5
8
4th


8
+3
Ability Score Increase
32
5
9
4th


9
+4
--
42
5
10
5th


10
+4
Indomitable Stance
43
6
11
5th


11
+4
--
49
6
12
6th


12
+4
Ability Score Increase
49
6
12
6th


13
+5
--
59
6
13
7th


14
+5
Path Feature
59
6
13
7th


15
+5
--
59
6
14
8th


16
+5
Ability Score Increase
59
6
14
8th


17
+6
--
71
6
15
9th


18
+6
Pioneering Form
78
6
15
9th


19
+6
Ability Score Increase
87
6
15
9th


20
+6
Double Stance
97
6
15
9th



Maneuvers: The various techniques of the Sublime Way are known as maneuvers. To an outsider, maneuvers appear similar to spells—both are discreet practices for achieving a single incredible result. The action required to initiate a maneuver is listed in the maneuver’s description. Maneuvers which are specified as requiring a weapon cannot be used unless you are currently wielding a weapon of that type. The range of a maneuver is either personal, or equal to the reach or range of your currently wielded weapon.

Forms: At first level, you select four Forms from the schools available to you. These simple maneuvers may be used at will, without expending Focus Points.

Focus Points: Martial Adepts possess a reserve of inner strength and discipline known as Focus Points. You regain all expended Focus Points after completing a long rest. To initiate a maneuver, you must expend a number of Focus Points based on the maneuver’s level:



Maneuver Level
Point Cost


1st
2


2nd
3


3rd
5


4th
6


5th
7


6th
9


7th
10


8th
11


9th
13



Maneuvers of 6th level and higher are particularly taxing to initiate. Regardless of how many Focus Points you currently have, after using a maneuver of 6th level of above you cannot use another until you have completed a short rest.

Maneuvers Known: At first level, you know two maneuvers of your choice from the schools available to you. The Maneuvers Known column of the Martial Adept table shows when you learn more maneuvers of your choice. Each of these maneuvers must be of a level you can use, as shown in the Highest Level Maneuver column.

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the maneuvers you know with another from the schools available to you, which also much be of a level you can use.

Initiating Ability: Which ability score you use to determine the save DC of your maneuvers depends on your Path. Crusaders use Charisma, Swordsages use Wisdom, and Warblades use Intelligence. The save DC is 8 + your proficiency bonus + the specified ability modifier.

Sublime Path: There are many different paths to understanding the Sublime Way. At first level, select one of three paths to follow: the Path of the Crusader, Path of the Swordsage, or Path of the Warblade. Your Path determines what schools of maneuver you can learn, and grants additional abilities at 2nd, 5th, and 14th level.

By the Sword: Beginning at 5th level, the thrill of battle lends you strength. When you use one of your Forms during combat, you gain one Focus Point. The maximum number of Focus Points you can have at one time is equal to the value given in the table above, plus the sum of your Proficiency Bonus and your Initiating Ability modifier. The combat must be of at least Easy difficulty in order for this ability to trigger. After completing a long rest, all points generated from this ability are lost.

Beginning at 11th level, you gain two Focus Points when you use a Form. This increases to three Focus Points at 17th level.

Indomitable Stance: Beginning at 10th level, if you fail a concentration save to maintain a stance, you may choose to succeed instead. Once you have done so, you cannot use this ability again until you have completed a long or short rest.

Pioneering Form: Beginning at 18th level, you may choose one maneuver you know of 2nd level of lower. It now can be used as a Form—it is always initiated at 2nd level, costs no Focus Points, and triggers your By the Sword ability.

Double Stance: Beginning at 20th level, you may concentrate on two effects simultaneously. You only make one concentration save for both effects; if you fail, both effects end.


Path of the Crusader
Maneuvers: Crusaders can learn forms and maneuvers from the Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven schools.

Crusader Training: Beginning at 2nd level, you gain proficiency in heavy armor. In addition, your hit point maximum increases by 2, and again by 1 whenever you gain a new level in this class.

Steely Resolve: Beginning at 6th level, when you take hit point damage, you may use your reaction to gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of damage you just took plus your Charisma modifier. These hit points expire at the end of your next turn.

Furious Counterstroke: Beginning at 14th level, you gain a bonus to weapon damage equal to one-fifth your temporary hit points from your Steely Resolve feature.


Path of the Swordsage
Maneuvers: Swordsages can learn forms and maneuvers from the Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw schools.

Discipline Focus: Beginning at 2nd level, pick one of the five disciplines that Swordsages can learn maneuvers from. You learn one maneuver from that school. At 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level, you learn one additional maneuver from your chosen school. These maneuvers don’t count against your number of maneuvers known.

Quick to Act: Beginning at 6th level, you gain a bonus to initiative checks equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Evasion: Beginning at 14th level, you gain Evasion, as the Rogue class feature


Path of the Warblade
Maneuvers: Warblades can learn forms and maneuvers from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven schools.

Fighting Style: Beginning at 2nd level, you gain one of the following Fighting Styles: Defense, Dueling, Mariner, Protection, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Battle Cunning: Beginning at 6th level, when you make a weapon attack with advantage, you gain a bonus to the damage equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Battle Ardor: Beginning at 14th level, you gain immunity to being charmed or frightened.



Scorching Sweep
Desert Wind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

Your sword leaves trails of fire in its wake. Up to three adjacent foes must make Dexterity saves or take 1d8 fire damage.

At 5th level, and again at 11th and 17th level, the damage increases by 1d8.

Sirocco Step
Desert Wind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You burst into motion with blinding speed. You may move up to your speed and make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Warding Blow
Devoted Spirit Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike at an enemy, forcing them away from your charges. Make a melee weapon attack and choose one ally within your reach. If it hits, it deals damage as normal. Hit or miss, until the beginning of your next turn, attacks against the chosen ally have disadvantage as long as the ally remains within yout reach.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 radiant damage. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Holy Smite
Devoted Spirit Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike a mighty blow against evil. Make a weapon attack. If you hit, it deals damage as normal, and if your target is an undead or fiend, they take additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 radiant damage regardless of the target’s type. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Crystalline Perfection
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You close your mind to all distractions. Make a weapon attack, ignoring all sources of advantage and disadvantage. If it hits, it deals damage as normal.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Discordant Strike
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike at the perfect moment to disrupt your foe’s rhythm. Make a weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and the next attack against the target has advantage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Flowing Steel
Iron Heart Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike with fluid grace, grazing a second foe before your first feels the blow. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, the target is damaged as normal, and you may compare the result of your attack roll to a second target within reach. If the attack would also hit them, they take damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, whichever you used to make the initial attack.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon to each target. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Power Attack
Iron Heart Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You throw caution to the wind and strike with all your strength. Make a melee weapon attack, without adding your proficiency bonus. If you hit, you deal additional damage equal to twice your proficiency bonus.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Flowing Defense
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: 1 round

You flow from blow to parry in a smooth movement. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, the next attack against you has disadvantage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon to each target. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Rounding Kata
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You step and strike, step and strike in a perfect rhythm. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, you may move 5ft without provoking opportunity attacks, and your target is moved 5ft in a direction of your choice.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon, and the distances increase by 5ft. This damage increases by 1d8 and distances by another 5ft at 11th and 17th level.

Shrouded Stab
Shadow Hand Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike and vanish, fading into the shadows. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and you may move up to 10ft without provoking opportunity attacks.

Beginning at 5th level, this attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. THis damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Backstab
Shadow Hand Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You take advantage of an ally’s movements to hide your own. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and if your target has another enemy adjacent to it, you deal additional damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Landslide Tackle
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike you foe with the full weight of your body. Make a melee weapon attack using your unarmed strike. For the purposes of this attack, it counts as having a damage die of 1d8. If you hit, the target is pushed 10ft.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 bludgeoning damage, and pushes your target an additional 5ft. This damage increases by 1d8 and the distance by 5ft at 11th and 17th level.

Strength of Stone
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: 1 round

You channel the unyielding strength of the mountains. Until the end of your next turn, you have resistance to all damage.

Pack Tactics
Tiger Claw Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You know how to strike as one with your comrades. Make a melee weapon attack. If one of your allies is adjacent to your target, you have advantage on the attack. If you hit, you deal normal damage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Fangs of the Wolf
Tiger Claw Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Light Melee
Duration: Instantaneous

You attack in a blinding flurry of speed. Make a melee weapon attack using a light weapon. If it hits, it deals normal damage, and you may use a bonus action to make a second melee weapon attack with it, also dealing normal damage.

At 5th level, your first attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Inspiring Attack
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

You charge into the fray, cheering your allies by your example. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals normal damage. Hit or miss, one ally within 30ft gains may move up to half their speed without provoking opportunity attacks.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Rally the Troops
White Raven Form
Action: 1 action
Weapon: Any
Duration: Instantaneous

Your exhort your allies to new heights. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, it deals normal damage, and one ally within 30ft gains gains temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier. These temporary hit points expire at the beginning of your next turn.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon, and grants an additional 1d8 temporary hit points. The damage and temporary hit points both increase by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.


This is the thing that looks the least like tome of battle classes I have ever seen in my life that is supposed to be similar to a tome of battle class according to its creator.

I mean why do you feel this much the need to restrain manoeuvrers over the day?(it discourage throwing them all the time thus changing the spirit of the system)
I think you could keep 3.5 maneuver recovery and just remove action economy maneuvers which are the only maneuvers that warrants such hard conditions.
Especially since you do not get extra attack so you will never match the damage output of a paladin or of a fighter unless you have maneuvers that adds excessive amounts of damage.
If you put 3.5 restrictions since now you can not multiclass between multiple initiating classes you can no longer do idiot crusaders.(the main broken thing about 3.5 tob)

Even if you went and simply used maneuver slots that works just like spell slots it would look more like tob(just add a per encounter recharge).
Tome of battle had a huge "no you can not use the same maneuver each turn unless you are doing sheanighans" constraint while your system seems to encourage doing 30 times in a row the exact same maneuver(while it makes impossible rotating high level maneuvers).

[T.G. Oskar]

This is the thing that looks the least like tome of battle classes I have ever seen in my life that is supposed to be similar to a tome of battle class according to its creator.

I mean why do you feel this much the need to restrain manoeuvrers over the day?(it discourage throwing them all the time thus changing the spirit of the system)
I think you could keep 3.5 maneuver recovery and just remove action economy maneuvers which are the only maneuvers that warrants such hard conditions.
Especially since you do not get extra attack so you will never match the damage output of a paladin or of a fighter unless you have maneuvers that adds excessive amounts of damage.
If you put 3.5 restrictions since now you can not multiclass between multiple initiating classes you can no longer do idiot crusaders.(the main broken thing about 3.5 tob)

Even if you went and simply used maneuver slots that works just like spell slots it would look more like tob(just add a per encounter recharge).
Tome of battle had a huge "no you can not use the same maneuver each turn unless you are doing sheanighans" constraint while your system seems to encourage doing 30 times in a row the exact same maneuver(while it makes impossible rotating high level maneuvers).

I have to agree, and expand upon this post.

ToB Maneuvers were basically the forefathers of 4e Powers, in particular the concept of "Encounter" Powers. As it stands, this class is basically taking the approach of a spell-point based spellcaster, dealt awkwardly. Martial Adepts should be focused on short-rest actions, with stances that modify their basic attacks instead of cantrips - essentially, like Boosts, Strikes, Counters and Stances. The idea should be as follows:

A Strike requires an Action, and is akin to a spell; it deals additional damage, perhaps a special effect, has some rider...the works.
A Boost allows you to spend your Bonus Action to, as the name implies, boost an attack or strike you're making. Some may work better with a single strike ("the next attack you make..."), others with the Attack action ("until the end of the current turn..."), and some may be better suited for longer buffs ("until the beginning/end of your next turn...").
A Counter defines what you can do with your Reaction.

All three work well as Short Rest actions, though you can have the class, or the subclasses associated with it, gain the ability to recover some of these. You recover all expended maneuvers on a Short Rest, which goes with the feel of the system.

Stances, on the other hand, are permanent buffs - akin to Invocations in some aspects - that permanently improve some aspect of your character. Punishing Stance already has a precedent (Great Weapon Master), and as long as you keep some of the more potentially broken stances in check (say, Pearl of Black Doubt coupled with disadvantage is a sure-fire way to essentially become unhittable), you can definitely work something out. I mean...you already have the concept of Forms as Stances, so that's half the work done.

As for whether to make a class or subclass...I'd say work it somehow like the Cleric or Wizard. I'd say do the Swordsage - the Warblade already resembles the Fighter too much, and the Crusader already resembles the Paladin too much, but the Swordsage can be a different flavor of a Monk, even though they resemble each other just as much. From there, you can define each of the Nine Disciplines as a subclass - hence, a Desert Wind Swordsage Disciple fights very differently from a Devoted Spirit Swordsage Disciple and from a Shadow Hand Swordsage Disciple.

I saw earlier on the idea of a Warlock, and it fits pretty decently. You get up to 5th level Maneuvers with the ability to regenerate them, but you can only prepare one Higher Strike per Maneuver level - which would be your 6th level or higher maneuvers. If your concern is to limit the higher-level maneuvers so you can't exploit them, you can work that with fluff. ("Higher Strikes are always known by the Swordsage/Martial Adept, but the circumstances required to execute them are not always present; thus, each strike can only be used once per long rest." Sure, it's an anime example, but think of Kenshin's ultimate maneuver - the Amakakeru Ryuu no Hirameki, or the "Flash of the Heavenly Soaring Dragon" - which is essentially meant as a counter to the previous technique, which the successor of the school must learn to survive. Each Higher Strike can follow the same principle, with only one - or a handful - of people being able to know the 9th level Higher Strike.)

As for the Warblade and the Crusader...the Battlemaster is basically a less vainglorious Warblade, and the Paladin could get the Oath of the Crusade as a subclass that teaches how to do maneuvers in addition to spells, discarding Oath Spells and generally changing the way how Paladin subclasses work. Alternatively, it could be another Fighter subclass for a more divine character feel.

But yeah - a spell-point based class already stems way beyond what a 5e class does, and it can be somewhat difficult to understand, something that's basically antithetical to the 5e design paradigm. Sure, the proposed solution is likewise hard to understand, part of why maneuvers are so difficult to translate to 5e terms (in comparison to, say, Incarnum), but your proposed idea strays drastically from the original concept of Martial Adepts. Working on both 3e maneuvers and 4e AEDU powers (with the 4e Fighter as a basis, since they get stances after all), you could get something that fits the 5e design paradigm while at the same time making an accurate and useful translation of the system.

[Nagog]

This looks a lot like the Pathfinder Warlord at first glance. I'll be back to edit this comment when I finish reading through, but I gotta say, I am loving this! The Warlord is the only part of Pathfinder that I miss after transitioning to 5e.