Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

[Quild]

Oots is not the story of how the world will be destroyed.

Yet, on a theorical level, what would happen?
In #1144 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html), Thor explains that Gods need Belief, Worship, Dedication and Souls.

Despite being the only gods of the numerous goublins, The Dark One might not survive the interim period between two worlds because he'd lack... Belief and Worship :smallconfused:.


Hel has been there for an awful lot of time. But old souls gives less power as time goes. They dissolve into outer plane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19684300&postcount=55) and don't give anymore the burst of power that they can grant on death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19745902&postcount=35).

These two quotes may be more or less answers created by The Giant while he was answering some people saying the plot does not work. So maybe I'm looking to much into that, but:
Hel has plenty of Belief (as a god of the Northern Pantheon, people acknowledge her existence).
Hel severely lacks Worship.
Hel this lacks Dedication.
Hel does not have lots of (recent) Souls.

So wouldn't she, despite of since how long she's there, be in danger if she does not get Souls on the world's destruction?
Especially since she seem to imply that killing Loki's follower in the next world would make Loki die.

Your thoughts?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My thoughts are that the dangers of divine starvation apply only to ascended gods, and that belief alone is sufficient to save Hel. As long as enough people know of her existence, she will survive. Hungry and wane, but won't fully fade. And it is hard to not believe in Death.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

We have word of God (quite literally) that TDO likely wouldn’t survive the worlds destruction, and he has a balanced diet and isn’t fading from existence, I sort of doubt Hel would be able to survive Book 7 if the deal isn’t changed.

[The MunchKING]

She's fading fast. If she does too many more Rage-Outs or burns too much more power, she may not even make it until the Snarl Snarls everything.

[hroþila]

We don't know that she's fading fast. We don't know how far along she is. We don't know how fast the Dark One would fade. We don't know how fast or to what extent Odin faded.

We know nothing.

I imagine the danger is real enough for Loki to worry, but beyond that? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Hekko]

We have word of God (quite literally) that TDO likely wouldn’t survive the worlds destruction, and he has a balanced diet and isn’t fading from existence, I sort of doubt Hel would be able to survive Book 7 if the deal isn’t changed.

Do we know for how long Souls power gods? Hel has been around for millions of worlds; TDO for what, centuries? Even if Hel is getting less souls now, she may still have enough souls in total to carry her over from previous worlds.

The way I understand it, no-one gets fresh Belief, Worship, or Dedication in between the worlds. All the gods survive on stores of energy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) and souls only. We don't know for how long these stores of energy may be built up, but again it may be for thousands and thousands of years - so Hel still has some while TDO doesn't.

[The MunchKING]

We don't know that she's fading fast.

She LITTERALLY Faded out in that last strip after her Rage. That seems fast to me.

[hroþila]

She LITTERALLY Faded out in that last strip after her Rage. That seems fast to me.
Assuming extra exertion hasn't been doing that to her for centuries and that it's gotten worse lately.

[Marcotix]

I do not believe that Hel can survive, I'd put her in at least as much of a bad spot as TDO. I think she was actually trying to compel Loki to leave her domain, and instead of being thrown out, Loki could feel how weak Hel had become.

My pet theory is that Zycon, or someone of equal power, is going to swoop in and finish her off.

[Schroeswald]

My thoughts are that the dangers of divine starvation apply only to ascended gods, and that belief alone is sufficient to save Hel. As long as enough people know of her existence, she will survive. Hungry and wane, but won't fully fade. And it is hard to not believe in Death.

Grey Wolf

“You will waste away and DIE!” Seems to show that at least Hel thinks non-ascended gods can die.

[Angrith]

My guess is that Hel personally has very little stores left, but that the other pantheon members will help her through. After all, she is family. However much they may dislike her personally, none of the other gods seem to want her dead. Sharing stores is likely how the Elven gods survived between worlds anyhow. The pantheon supported them.

[Schroeswald]

My guess is that Hel personally has very little stores left, but that the other pantheon members will help her through. After all, she is family. However much they may dislike her personally, none of the other gods seem to want her dead. Sharing stores is likely how the Elven gods survived between worlds anyhow. The pantheon supported them.

Why would the elven gods have survived between worlds? We have precisely 0 evidence that a single ascended god has survived the transition period (not saying they can't but that we have no evidence that says any of them have).

[Emanick]

Why would the elven gods have survived between worlds? We have precisely 0 evidence that a single ascended god has survived the transition period (not saying they can't but that we have no evidence that says any of them have).

We don’t have hard evidence, but the way Thor talks about ascended gods, it doesn’t sound like there’s a 0% chance of them surviving between worlds. “I’ve seen new gods with more worshippers than [The Dark One] has fail to make it” is more the sort of thing that you’d say about a process that rarely lets new gods make it, not one that they absolutely never survive. If an ascended god had never survived the process of a world being destroyed, I’d expect Thor to have said as much.

So it’s circumstantial, but it sort of seems that yes, there are some gods who have ascended and survived. I wouldn’t bet a lot on it, but I’d bet a few dollars.

[RaveDave92084]

Some analysis on my part

This comic: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html ((Previously linked, but supports analysis)) indicates that there is a whole pantheon of belief in Hel, multiple followers for multiple deities believe in her.

It may not be necessary to share the soul power by the other Gods to have Hel survive the interim from the last world's destruction to the next worlds creation, the belief of the existing souls my be sufficient. This thought doesn't preclude sharing from the other gods to Hel, but offers a mechanism where it might not be needed. It is also possible, as some have mentioned, that there may be residual energy from the last world to help sustain Hel.

She will not be healthy nor will she be strong. Exertions are likely to cause her to fade, as we have seen here, but not necessarily fade to permanent black.

She obviously has reasons for anger with Loki and Thor, but I am unsure if here current responses are because she fears for her continued existence, or loss of power. Both are a possibility/probability.

TDO has none of the benefits of the above, and his current level of souls, belief, dedication, and worship are likely insufficient to support him in the interim between worlds per Thor.

[Schroeswald]

We don’t have hard evidence, but the way Thor talks about ascended gods, it doesn’t sound like there’s a 0% chance of them surviving between worlds. “I’ve seen new gods with more worshippers than [The Dark One] has fail to make it” is more the sort of thing that you’d say about a process that rarely lets new gods make it, not one that they absolutely never survive. If an ascended god had never survived the process of a world being destroyed, I’d expect Thor to have said as much.

So it’s circumstantial, but it sort of seems that yes, there are some gods who have ascended and survived. I wouldn’t bet a lot on it, but I’d bet a few dollars.

I'd agree with you there, maybe one or two elven gods, Surtur, Singrum and Thrym have lasted more than one world, what I was disagreeing with was the assertion that the elven gods would have mostly survived due to their pantheon-hood (I think thats much of the reason most of the gods have survived, but you must also have strong reason for being and the longer you've been around the less likely you'll die).

[KorvinStarmast]

My thoughts are that the dangers of divine starvation apply only to ascended gods, and that belief alone is sufficient to save Hel. As long as enough people know of her existence, she will survive. Hungry and wane, but won't fully fade. And it is hard to not believe in Death.
Even those who disbelieve in death will still die.

For the OP: Oots is not the story of how the world will be destroyed. In other words, you answered your own question. Whatever might happen to Hel would happen off screen, and necessarily be part of a different story.

[Squire Doodad]

Even those who disbelieve in death will still die.


"...and with many strange aeons even disbelief in death may die."

[Rrmcklin]

The fact that we're supposed to be taking it as a fact that Hel's plan would have worked (and we are, although I don't know where that exact quote by the Giant is) tells us that, yes, Hel would survive to the next world.

I'd dispute Grey Wolf's claim that only Ascended Gods have to worry about fading away, because Thor specifically mentions things all of the gods need to survive, but that's a moot point here.

[Forum Explorer]

I have a better question. Will Hel survive if the Snarl doesn't destroy the world? After all, that means she's still locked in the wager, and will continue to be locked in the wager for potentially millions of years.

[Anymage]

I have a better question. Will Hel survive if the Snarl doesn't destroy the world? After all, that means she's still locked in the wager, and will continue to be locked in the wager for potentially millions of years.

Before #1176, I'd have said absolutely. She still has three of the four major divine food groups, and while that's imbalancing it doesn't sound directly fatal.

Currently I still think she's likely to make it, but that has less to do with the nature of divine diets and more to do with Rich and the story being told. If Hel dies from malnourishment, Loki and Thor will be somewhat to blame for that. The world will survive (because this isn't the story of five fools who get blown up anticlimactically), and something will happen to keep the CG guy from being responsible for his niece's death.

The bigger question, to me, is how. More specifically, if the bet is hardcoded into this world, or if either party could end it at any time if they were willing to pay off the stakes and didn't let their pride get in the way. (Realistically Hel's. She'd know she was whipped, and wouldn't even accept a graceful concession from Thor unless her situation was dire.) If she can back out, I expect her to relent once she finds out that this world can expect to last for a good long while. If she can't, her solution will rest in the remaining vampire clerics; she'd have to tell them to play nice so that they aren't seen as quite so unholy abominations, but having clerics who can spread her worship is better than being entirely without.

[factotum]

The fact that we're supposed to be taking it as a fact that Hel's plan would have worked (and we are, although I don't know where that exact quote by the Giant is) tells us that, yes, Hel would survive to the next world.


I don't think that quote exists--I certainly don't remember the Giant saying anything like that, but willing to be proven wrong. Fact is, it really doesn't matter to the story if Hel's plan would have worked, because it's only critical that she *believes* it would work.

[Rrmcklin]

I don't think that quote exists--I certainly don't remember the Giant saying anything like that, but willing to be proven wrong. Fact is, it really doesn't matter to the story if Hel's plan would have worked, because it's only critical that she *believes* it would work.

I believe I found it, apologies for any format issues.


I do not understand comments that boil down to, "I don't think the plot works the way the text says it works." I understand that characters can lie or be mistaken, but at a certain point you have to understand that the only way for me to communicate non-visual information to you in the strip is through dialogue.

I do not crunch numbers when writing dialogue. Do you know how I picked 10 million? I googled the medieval population of Scandinavia and made it about the same. The more important point is that you should assume that the characters are more familiar with the relevant details than you are—and if they say, "Hey, this number is the right number!" than you, as a reader, should accept that as being true within this story unless the story gives you some clue otherwise (like a character saying, "Ten million? That doesn't sound right").

I promise you that the resolution to this story will not be, "Oh, hey, Hel did the math wrong!" In fact, I promise you that the exact number of dwarves will never matter at all, for any reason, ever, and that every single character will continue to act in a way consistent with all of Hel's math being correct and true. And if that bothers you on some math-level of your brain, just pretend that the words "ten million" are a typo and it should say whatever number you would feel would be big enough to make Hel's stated plan "make sense" to you, personally. Because it really doesn't matter. It's not like I could have possibly picked a number that would please everyone anyway.

Going off of this, if we're supposed to reason that Hel is correct in all of the dwarf souls being enough to make her powerful enough to become the new Queen of the Northern Pantheon, that only makes sense if Hel would actually survive long enough to do it.

[Quild]

Going off of this, if we're supposed to reason that Hel is correct in all of the dwarf souls being enough to make her powerful enough to become the new Queen of the Northern Pantheon, that only makes sense if Hel would actually survive long enough to do it.

That's a good point.

The Belief/Worship/Dedication/Souls diet raises an issue that didn't exist before.
I suppose that plenty of souls with unbalanced diet are better than few souls with balanced diet.


If she can't, her solution will rest in the remaining vampire clerics; she'd have to tell them to play nice so that they aren't seen as quite so unholy abominations, but having clerics who can spread her worship is better than being entirely without.
I guess some evil gods have clerics who don't play nice. The issue for Hel is that hers are undead. And targeted as such.
Loki, especially, wants his followers to hunt undeads...

[RatElemental]

The fact that we're supposed to be taking it as a fact that Hel's plan would have worked (and we are, although I don't know where that exact quote by the Giant is) tells us that, yes, Hel would survive to the next world.

I'd dispute Grey Wolf's claim that only Ascended Gods have to worry about fading away, because Thor specifically mentions things all of the gods need to survive, but that's a moot point here.

It doesn't matter if Hel's plan would have worked if the gods destroyed the world, because the question posed was if the Snarl destroys the world. If the Snarl destroys the world it will consume all of the souls Hel was banking on getting, leaving her wasting away in the interim period with her current level of resources.

She's not looking too good at the moment.

[factotum]

I believe I found it, apologizes for any format issues.

Going off of this, if we're supposed to reason that Hel is correct in all of the dwarf souls being enough to make her powerful enough to become the new Queen of the Northern Pantheon, that only makes sense if Hel would actually survive long enough to do it.

OK, ignore my previous comment! Although, Hel clearly isn't absolutely certain that this will be enough to make her the Queen, because she says "Such an influx of resources could well render me more powerful than Grandfather Odin himself" when talking about her plan--that "could well" indicates a measure of uncertainty. Again, I would say it doesn't actually matter whether her plan would work or not, though, because the fact she has to *destroy the world* in order to carry it out is the reason they're trying to stop her, not because she might be the most powerful God in the next world.

[Goblin_Priest]

Oots is not the story of how the world will be destroyed.

Yet, on a theorical level, what would happen?
In #1144 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html), Thor explains that Gods need Belief, Worship, Dedication and Souls.

Despite being the only gods of the numerous goublins, The Dark One might not survive the interim period between two worlds because he'd lack... Belief and Worship :smallconfused:.


Hel has been there for an awful lot of time. But old souls gives less power as time goes. They dissolve into outer plane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19684300&postcount=55) and don't give anymore the burst of power that they can grant on death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19745902&postcount=35).

These two quotes may be more or less answers created by The Giant while he was answering some people saying the plot does not work. So maybe I'm looking to much into that, but:
Hel has plenty of Belief (as a god of the Northern Pantheon, people acknowledge her existence).
Hel severely lacks Worship.
Hel this lacks Dedication.
Hel does not have lots of (recent) Souls.

So wouldn't she, despite of since how long she's there, be in danger if she does not get Souls on the world's destruction?
Especially since she seem to imply that killing Loki's follower in the next world would make Loki die.

Your thoughts?

Yes, she will survive, because she says so, and she clearly knows more about how all of that works than we do. ;)

[Quebbster]

From a story perspective, it really doesn't matter if the plan could actually work or not. Hel is committed to her plan and there's no reason to Believe she wouldn't try to destroy the World if given the chance, thus (presumably) ending the story of the Order of the Stick.

[The Pilgrim]

I don't think Hel's problem is due of a lack of souls.

In my opinion, her problem is that everything is shaped around ideas at the Outer Planes. Even the Gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html). Belief from the mortals provokes changes in the Gods. Thor used to be a Ginger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) until the Mortals began to think about him as a Blonde due to a certain comic-book character. Odin used to be wise and sage but it only took one iteration of believers thinking he is a simpleton fool (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1145.html) to throw him off-balance.

Loki asked Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html) what was more important, Clerics or Souls. Hel foolishy replied that Souls were more important because they gave you power, while Clerics used it. She didn't realize that Clerics did something more important than "using your power". By spreading your Word, Clerics not only spread belief in you, they also spread belief in the particular way you want mortals to believe in you.

With no Clerics, mortals may still believe Hel exists because she is part of the Northern Pantheon, but she lacks any control on how do mortals perceive her. In previous worlds, Mortals did respect her and would praise her every time they didn't die. But in this world she is not getting the praise she never deserved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html). Mortals just dismiss her as a powerless passive leech, too lazy and too lame to even grant spells to clerics. And that is affecting her, of course. She is slowly but steadly withering away because Mortals believe her to be just a pile of waste.

I bet Loki just wants Hel to learn the lesson, acknowledge her defeat, and accept to call out the bet. Otherwise, she's a goner, whenever this world gets destroyed by the Snarl or keeps existing.

[Khay]

The gods have been doing this for an impossibly long time and a very large number of worlds. This isn't quite infinity, but you can see it from here - so if it was possible for established gods to die, I feel like the pantheons should've been trimmed down a lot by now. Agreeing to the bet might've been a uniquely poor decision on Hel's part, but surely there would have been worlds with strange circumstances before. Have the Northerners never ended up as (say) pacifists who refuse to worship Tyr? We know Odin took a bad hit during the previous world, but he's also the most powerful god by a long shot, so he's got a long way to fall. What happens if you end up as a marginal god in several consecutive worlds?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The gods have been doing this for an impossibly long time and a very large number of worlds. This isn't quite infinity, but you can see it from here - so if it was possible for established gods to die, I feel like the pantheons should've been trimmed down a lot by now. Agreeing to the bet might've been a uniquely poor decision on Hel's part, but surely there would have been worlds with strange circumstances before. Have the Northerners never ended up as (say) pacifists who refuse to worship Tyr? We know Odin took a bad hit during the previous world, but he's also the most powerful god by a long shot, so he's got a long way to fall. What happens if you end up as a marginal god in several consecutive worlds?

Yep, this is my point too. Gods (now) exist because their creations believe they exist. Unless the next world is populated by immortal super-immune people, those people will continue to believe in a death & sickness goddess, and Hel will continue to exist. Powerless, a shade of her former self, maybe, but can't completely fade.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

That's what I would normally believe, but I'll be damned if "Die or Die Trying" doesn't suggest to me that yes, Hel can absolutely die.

[Jasdoif]

That's what I would normally believe, but I'll be damned if "Die or Die Trying" doesn't suggest to me that yes, Hel can absolutely die.Personally, I'm not sure where the line on "die" should be on the deific scale, assuming it's even a single line. I mean...between the whole bit about needing Belief (mortals knowing the gods exist in their specific identities) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html), that Belief can influence a deity's mindset (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1145.html); and Hel's threat itself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1176.html)....I think we could be looking at a scenario where a god could become wholly deprived of their identity as an individual deity, losing their sentience and becoming an abstract force of their portfolio. Which...sounds an awful lot like the death of the person they were, regardless of how long the force persists.

[factotum]

What puzzles me somewhat is that the Gods existed before the first world did, when there were no mortals around to feed them souls--so what did they survive on up until that point?

[Schroeswald]

What puzzles me somewhat is that the Gods existed before the first world did, when there were no mortals around to feed them souls--so what did they survive on up until that point?

There used to be an orange quiddity for the Egyptian gods/Central Pantheon, but we don’t talk about them much anymore.
In case you couldn’t tell, they ate the Egyptians .

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What puzzles me somewhat is that the Gods existed before the first world did, when there were no mortals around to feed them souls--so what did they survive on up until that point?

Same thing living beings on Earth survived on before the advent of oxygen: something else. Then they evolved to use oxygen (or sunlight), and now they can't go back.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Based on the current comic, Hel sure believes she'll survive even if she gets zero additional souls, and I see no reason to doubt her.

[Fyraltari]

it is hard to not believe in Death.

Epicurus would want a word with you.

[RatElemental]

Based on the current comic, Hel sure believes she'll survive even if she gets zero additional souls, and I see no reason to doubt her.

She also nearly fades away entirely just saying that and collapses into her chair. Characters can be wrong.

[Quild]

Yep, this is my point too. Gods (now) exist because their creations believe they exist. Unless the next world is populated by immortal super-immune people, those people will continue to believe in a death & sickness goddess, and Hel will continue to exist. Powerless, a shade of her former self, maybe, but can't completely fade.

Grey Wolf

There are other gods of Death. Also if Hel dies and the world start without a god of death for Northerners, they could create one.


Based on the current comic, Hel sure believes she'll survive even if she gets zero additional souls, and I see no reason to doubt her.

I can't remember when there was an occurence of the Giant explaining that characters don't necessarily know how works the world. They don't know about rules like an experienced player would know.

I wonder if Loki's face in the two last panels is about his daughter threatening him (but he still gets his followers to hate undeads) or because he's trying to give her a chance and thinks she's going to a dead-end. No pun intended.

[Peelee]

I can't remember when there was an occurence of the Giant explaining that characters don't necessarily know how works the world. They don't know about rules like an experienced player would know.

I know the quote you're referring to, but I feel like it doesn't quite apply to a deity who literally created the world, and has literally created all of the billions of worlds past, and has been around for billions to trillions of years that we know of, the same as it applies to, say, a young adult halfling, ya know?

Hel should be slightly more authoritative on this. Not completely... just more.

She also nearly fades away entirely just saying that and collapses into her chair.
She got better.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Epicurus would want a word with you.
Hard to do. Turns out that, even if he didn't believe in Death, Death did believe in him.


There are other gods of Death. Also if Hel dies and the world start without a god of death for Northerners, they could create one.

Called Hel. So she'd be alive. Again. At which point you'll say something about change, and I'll point to Theseus' Ship.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

I know the quote you're referring to, but I feel like it doesn't quite apply to a deity who literally created the world, and has literally created all of the billions of worlds past, and has been around for billions to trillions of years that we know of, the same as it applies to, say, a young adult halfling, ya know?

Hel should be slightly more authoritative on this. Not completely... just more.

She got better.

Her getting better means she's not seconds away from death, which means nothing, the point of her fading out was to show that she is getting very bad and dying, and while I doubt she'll actually die (story-reasons only), it implies that she can and that stopping her death is a possible reason for her to stay in the story or fix the dwarves deal.

[Fyraltari]

Hard to do. Turns out that, even if he didn't believe in Death, Death did believe in him.

Hence "would".

[Peelee]

Her getting better means she's not seconds away from death, which means nothing, the point of her fading out was to show that she is getting very bad and dying

I disagree with just about all of that. Her fading means she can't flex her powers without significant strain, not that she's seconds away from dying. Why did she get better? There's no sudden influx of souls or belief. There's no outside influence that we can see. My reading of that is the fading was to show she's exhausted, not that she's dying.

[Jasdoif]

There are other gods of Death. Also if Hel dies and the world start without a god of death for Northerners, they could create one.Called Hel. So she'd be alive. Again. At which point you'll say something about change, and I'll point to Theseus' Ship.Would she be alive again? Or would this be a new death god(dess) named Hel? (Same ship with a different captain?)

[Fyraltari]

I disagree with just about all of that. Her fading means she can't flex her powers without significant strain, not that she's seconds away from dying. Why did she get better? There's no sudden influx of souls or belief. There's no outside influence that we can see. My reading of that is the fading was to show she's exhausted, not that she's dying.

Analogy time! Someone starving to death and consequentially bed-ridden gets so riled up they start yelling at someone. A few seconds in they metabolism realizes it can't cash the checks their mind is writing as their heart can't keep up with that much excitment and they collapse back into their bed. Their heart strts beating at a more normal pace as do their breathing and they look "better" but it's clear to all present that if nothing changes they'll be dead soon.

That's how I read this scene. Hel almost bliked out of existence there because she doesn,'t have enough power to make a show of force for an extended duration of time and stay alive. Looks like soonish she won't have enough power to stay alive at all.

Maybe Grey Wolf is right and the Northerners' belief in the next wworld would create a new Hel, one who would look and act a lot like her but wouldn't be her in the same way that my new watch is not the same as my old watch despite being almost identical.

[Schroeswald]

I disagree with just about all of that. Her fading means she can't flex her powers without significant strain, not that she's seconds away from dying. Why did she get better? There's no sudden influx of souls or belief. There's no outside influence that we can see. My reading of that is the fading was to show she's exhausted, not that she's dying.

1. It can mean both, she was less corporeal than Eugene is, the only time the ghosts are near as close are when he fades out to the astral plane.

2. She got better because of the baseline belief continuing to power her and the fact that she isn't directly next to death, she just skirted very close, and exhaustion can kill you if you do it to much, and when you get sicker more can exhaust you.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Fyraltari

[The Pilgrim]

A fully loaded car with a small engine and a full tank of gas will struggle going uphill, but will keep running for hundreds of miles.


Would she be alive again? Or would this be a new death god(dess) named Hel? (Same ship with a different captain?)

She will quit being the godess of Death and become the godess of the swamps.

[Peelee]

Analogy time! Someone starving to death and consequentially bed-ridden gets so riled up they start yelling at someone. A few seconds in they metabolism realizes it can't cash the checks their mind is writing as their heart can't keep up with that much excitment and they collapse back into their bed. Their heart strts beating at a more normal pace as do their breathing and they look "better" but it's clear to all present that if nothing changes they'll be dead soon.

Slightly changed analogy time! Someone malnourished by not in danger of death and consequentially bed-ridden gets so riled up they start yelling at someone. A few seconds in they metabolism realizes it can't cash the checks their mind is writing as their heart can't keep up with that much excitment and they collapse back into their bed. Their heart strts beating at a more normal pace as do their breathing and they look "better" but it's clear to all present that if nothing changes they'll still be malnourished but very much alive, at least for long enough to fix the malnourishment.:smalltongue:

[hroþila]

Slightly changed analogy time! Someone malnourished by not in danger of death and consequentially bed-ridden gets so riled up they start yelling at someone. A few seconds in they metabolism realizes it can't cash the checks their mind is writing as their heart can't keep up with that much excitment and they collapse back into their bed. Their heart strts beating at a more normal pace as do their breathing and they look "better" but it's clear to all present that if nothing changes they'll still be malnourished but very much alive, at least for long enough to fix the malnourishment.:smalltongue:
Is the comic strip where that happens also called "Die or Die Trying"? :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

Analogy time! Someone starving to death and consequentially bed-ridden gets so riled up they start yelling at someone. A few seconds in they metabolism realizes it can't cash the checks their mind is writing as their heart can't keep up with that much excitment and they collapse back into their bed. Their heart strts beating at a more normal pace as do their breathing and they look "better" but it's clear to all present that if nothing changes they'll be dead soon.

Slightly changed analogy time! Someone malnourished by not in danger of death and consequentially bed-ridden gets so riled up they start yelling at someone. A few seconds in they metabolism realizes it can't cash the checks their mind is writing as their heart can't keep up with that much excitment and they collapse back into their bed. Their heart strts beating at a more normal pace as do their breathing and they look "better" but it's clear to all present that if nothing changes they'll still be malnourished but very much alive, at least for long enough to fix the malnourishment.:smalltongue:
So tell me, can Hel fix her malnourishment? Because it sounds like you agree that if she doesn't, she's going to die.

[Peelee]

So tell me, can Hel fix her malnourishment?

Sure! By the world ending.

If the world keeps going, I still doubt she'd die; the belief and paltry souls she gets are probably enough to keep her going, but she'll be in a chronically poor state. I just don't think we should be holding gods to the same biological standards we hold ourselves to, ya know? Or maybe she will eventually die after tens or hundreds of thousands of years of not getting enough souls. But for the time frames we're seeing without the Snarl being destroyed, I doubt it'd happen.

[Fyraltari]

Sure! By the world ending.
My money is on that not happening.


If the world keeps going, I still doubt she'd die; the belief and paltry souls she gets are probably enough to keep her going, but she'll be in a chronically poor state. I just don't think we should be holding gods to the same biological standards we hold ourselves to, ya know? Or maybe she will eventually die after tens or hundreds of thousands of years of not getting enough souls. But for the time frames we're seeing without the Snarl being destroyed, I doubt it'd happen.
Okay but the question now becomes "assuming there is a threshold below which she is in mortal (heh) danger, how do we know wether she's crossed it?"

Well to answer that I have a second question: "Why did the Giant decide to show us her fading away?"
The only reason I can think of is "To emphasize that, yes she is starving". If that bears being shown rather than simply told a handful of times that tells me that the message The Giant intends to convey is that she really is in danger. And so getting desperate.

[Peelee]

My money is on that not happening.
So is mine, but hers isn't.

Okay but the question now becomes "assuming there is a threshold below which she is in mortal (heh) danger, how do we know wether she's crossed it?"
Why? It's not going to matter for the story.

[Anymage]

Sure! By the world ending.

If the world keeps going, I still doubt she'd die; the belief and paltry souls she gets are probably enough to keep her going, but she'll be in a chronically poor state. I just don't think we should be holding gods to the same biological standards we hold ourselves to, ya know? Or maybe she will eventually die after tens or hundreds of thousands of years of not getting enough souls. But for the time frames we're seeing without the Snarl being destroyed, I doubt it'd happen.

Fully agreed that Hel won't burn out within the next year unless she exerts herself in a way beyond anything we've seen a god do so far.

Still, her fade is either a sign to herself that she's in worse shape than she thought, or a sign to Loki that she's in pretty bad shape. It wouldn't be worth showing if there weren't some larger point to it. So while on a meta level I don't see Hel starving to death (Rich doesn't like that sort of story, especially since it would make Thor an accessory), she's worse off than we thought before this comic.


So tell me, can Hel fix her malnourishment? Because it sounds like you agree that if she doesn't, she's going to die.

Odin was "malnourished" in a different way in the past world. His was due to belief that wound up being unhealthy for him as opposed to an unbalanced diet, but he made it across. If the vote came off as Hel had planned and the world were to end right there, I think it's safe to say that Hel would survive and even thrive into the next world. (I have a hunch that she'd slow down after her early burst of power and that Odin would have a good chance of reasserting himself in the world after that world, but Rich hasn't given us much info on theodynamics and later worlds are well outside the scope of this comic.)

Right now? Like I said before, that depends entirely on if the terms of the bet are (meta)physically built into the nature of this world, or if either side could forfeit if they paid our their stakes and swallowed their pride. I have a hunch that it's the pride explanation, because getting two other pantheons to write one pantheon's bet into the nature of the world sounds unlikely. Still, getting Hel to swallow her pride and admit that she was wrong will be hard. Even if Thor is distressed at hearing how badly his niece is holding up, and winds up offering to concede just to give Hel an out.

[RatElemental]

Why? It's not going to matter for the story.

It gives impetus for Loki to do something about the wager before this world ends, if possible. He clearly is surprised by her fading out and looks sullen as he leaves after.

Just like I don't think the story can end with "And the goblins go back to being sentient bags of EXP" I don't think it can end with "And the dwarves continue being subjected to the unfairness of the wager" either. This is just to drive home that no one involved in the wager likes that it's in place and they all have very good reasons to do something about it.

[nmphuong91]

I believe that Hel won't survive either way. If this world continues, she will eventually starve to death. If this world is destroyed by Snarl, she won't make it to the next one. Hence "Die or die trying".
Also, this way allows the story to develop Hel further:
1. Hel's action in this act will become necessary evil instead of mere greed, which allow the reader to sympathize with her somewhat.
2. Thor and Loki might have to reconsider the bet so Hel can continue to survive.
Because it wouldn't be fun if Hel is just a one-dimension villain of the arc.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thread: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

Of course she would. She has survived the other million or so Snarl-world-eating events. There is not reason she won't be around for the next one.

[RatElemental]

Thread: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

Of course she would. She has survived the other million or so Snarl-world-eating events. There is not reason she won't be around for the next one.

The bet wasn't in place for those other worlds.

[Peelee]

I believe that Hel won't survive either way. If this world continues, she will eventually starve to death. If this world is destroyed by Snarl, she won't make it to the next one. Hence "Die or die trying".
Also, this way allows the story to develop Hel further:
1. Hel's action in this act will become necessary evil instead of mere greed, which allow the reader to sympathize with her somewhat.
2. Thor and Loki might have to reconsider the bet so Hel can continue to survive.
Because it wouldn't be fun if Hel is just a one-dimension villain of the arc.
Odin was similarly malnourished by faulty belief system and made it through fine. Plus, nobody has mentioned that they think she won't survive, and I don't believe that she wouldn't unless someone mentions it in-comic.

I also believe the bet is firmly baked into the rules of the world and can't or won't be changed. Nobody has mentioned that the bet could be able to end while the world still turns.

[Anymage]

Odin was similarly malnourished by faulty belief system and made it through fine. Plus, nobody has mentioned that they think she won't survive, and I don't believe that she wouldn't unless someone mentions it in-comic.

I would have 100% agreed with you before the fade. But since we've seen it, I can't think what it would mean other than that Hel isn't as well as she would like to be. I don't think she'll die within the timespan of the comic, but I wonder what you think the fade means if not that she's having a rough time of things.


I also believe the bet is firmly baked into the rules of the world and can't or won't be changed. Nobody has mentioned that the bet could be able to end while the world still turns.

Hel firmly believed that she'd win, and before Durkon died at a fortuitous time probably didn't let anyone see how bad things were due to her pride. It wouldn't be in her character to forfeit unless the situation were truly dire, and I don't think she sees it as that bad yet.

If Hel has been keeping up appearances pretty well, Thor and Loki wouldn't have any reason to believe that she was really in trouble. Her diet might be doing a number on her, but gods have bounced back from screwy diets before.

And from an outside perspective, we have three options for how things stand at the end of the story. Hel is dead (in a pretty fast timeframe, and with Thor being instrumental to that as the other side of the bet). Hel is alive, and dwarves are still stuck with the unfair honor rule. Or the bet is somehow called off. When all is said and done, two of those don't seem like the sorts of notes that Rich would want to end on.

[Peelee]

I would have 100% agreed with you before the fade. But since we've seen it, I can't think what it would mean other than that Hel isn't as well as she would like to be. I don't think she'll die within the timespan of the comic, but I wonder what you think the fade means if not that she's having a rough time of things.
I absolutely think she's having a right time of things. I just don't think it's lethal.

Hel firmly believed that she'd win, and before Durkon died at a fortuitous time probably didn't let anyone see how bad things were due to her pride. It wouldn't be in her character to forfeit unless the situation were truly dire, and I don't think she sees it as that bad yet.
We see how bad it is just now, but she's seen how bad it was every second of every day so far. Besides which...

If Hel has been keeping up appearances pretty well

Then she would absolutely know how bad it was, to have to actively disguise it. And it's not like Thor wouldn't reverse that bet in a heartbeat if he was offered and could, I also believe. As soon as he told the dwarves she should have called it off. She's been wasting away for at least a millennium and isn't a long-term planner. She surely would have tried to call it off before now if she could

[RatElemental]

The only options I can see for Hel are to call the bet off or die, thus freeing the dwarves from the bet. The world certainly isn't ending any time soon, and the Giant is on record saying that the bet is unfair to the dwarves and he's spent a lot of this book detailing how it's unfair to Thor and Hel too and just now showed Loki of all people looking distressed about what it's doing to Hel.

The bet cannot stand, one way or another. If the bet really truly can't be called off then my money is on Hel fading into nonexistence by the end of book 7. I just can't see Rich ending the comic with "oh yeah and the dwarves still get sent to Hel and suffer for all eternity if they choke on a chicken bone or get caught in a gas leak in the mines."

[Peelee]

The only options I can see for Hel are to call the bet off or die, thus freeing the dwarves from the bet. The world certainly isn't ending any time soon, and the Giant is on record saying that the bet is unfair to the dwarves and he's spent a lot of this book detailing how it's unfair to Thor and Hel too and just now showed Loki of all people looking distressed about what it's doing to Hel.

Familicide was unfair to the dragons, but I don't see that being reversed anytime soon.

[Schroeswald]

Familicide was unfair to the dragons, but I don't see that being reversed anytime soon.

But that is unfair to the dragons it killed, not every dragon that has ever and will ever exist from now until the end of time (and it wasn’t technically unfair to V, whose name we know).

[Peelee]

But that is unfair to the dragons it killed, not every dragon that has ever and will ever exist from now until the end of time (and it wasn’t technically unfair to V, whose name we know).

...and?

The dwarves built their entire culture around the bet. They are happy when a dwarf gets killed in a fight. It's weird, and it sucks for them, but I don't see them changing at any point. I'm calling that the bet won't be ended (well, really, can't be ended) without the world ending, and that Hel will not die.

The fact that I've been wrong about literally every prediction I've ever made about the comic except one doesn't matter.:smalltongue:

[RatElemental]

Familicide was unfair to the dragons, but I don't see that being reversed anytime soon.

Familicide is also not getting cast every day from now until the end of time and the person who cast familicide has already resigned themselves to a life of atonement.

[Peelee]

Familicide is also not getting cast every day from now until the end of time

I'm sure that a quarter of the black dragon population are comforted by that.

[RatElemental]

I'm sure that a quarter of the black dragon population are comforted by that.

The point was that whatever justice there is to be had has already been had, and the crime was finite. When it comes to the bet, it's still ongoing and no justice is forthcoming. I'm ready to accept it if the giant does indeed end the comic that way, but it would strike me as supremely odd to have one bit of divine injustice against mortals (goblins as exp fodder) be the cause of and addressed by the plot while just skating right over another example of the same.

[Peelee]

The point was that whatever justice there is to be had has already been had, and the crime was finite. When it comes to the bet, it's still ongoing and no justice is forthcoming. I'm ready to accept it if the giant does indeed end the comic that way, but it would strike me as supremely odd to have one bit of divine injustice against mortals (goblins as exp fodder) be the cause of and addressed by the plot while just skating right over another example of the same.

The world isn't just. I don't expect a happy ending for everyone. Heck, that may be what the Oracle meant by "for you, at least;" if anyone would object to a happy ending if the Dwarven deal isn't changed, well, the Oracle called it.

[Forum Explorer]

The world isn't just. I don't expect a happy ending for everyone. Heck, that may be what the Oracle meant by "for you, at least;" if anyone would object to a happy ending if the Dwarven deal isn't changed, well, the Oracle called it.

Yes, exactly. I mean, let's say the Dark One agrees to help fix the Gates. Do you think all the other races will suddenly be cool with goblins? Nah, they'll still be very hostile and treat them as an enemy at pretty much all times. For that matter, the goblins themselves won't suddenly stop murdering and enslaving humans and elves at the drop of a hat either.

[multilis]

Yes, exactly. I mean, let's say the Dark One agrees to help fix the Gates. Do you think all the other races will suddenly be cool with goblins?..
And that is why the Dark One will not help fix the gates. Why help them become 4 colors to match Snarl when he can instead help Snarl become 5 colors to 3? Basic capitalism, work for the side that pays and treats you the best.

Lets face it, it is final curtain call... Snarl has grown too strong, his new world is in place, if the "gods" try to unravel theirs, everyone will just fall into Snarl's better world below. If they wait, then the rifts will keep growing bigger and more will join the Holey Brotherhood of Love.

Hel could also join the Holey Brotherhood and survive, but otherwise she will perish.

[Peelee]

And that is why the Dark One will not help fix the gates. Why help them become 4 colors to match Snarl when he can instead help Snarl become 5 colors to 3? Basic capitalism, work for the side that pays and treats you the best.

The Snarl stiffs you, though.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Would she be alive again? Or would this be a new death god(dess) named Hel? (Same ship with a different captain?)

It could be a Sandman sort of thing, where you have Morpheus and Daniel. Both are Dream of the Endless, but they’re not quite the same person.

[Titanium Dragon]

I think part of the point of this is to show that she wouldn't. The fact that she just gave up a lot of her freshest souls probably hurts as well. She put everything she had into this scheme and it didn't work.

That said, given how narrative arcs like this work, it's extremely unlikely that the world is going to be destroyed, so we will likely never get a definitive answer.

[ReaderAt2046]

What puzzles me somewhat is that the Gods existed before the first world did, when there were no mortals around to feed them souls--so what did they survive on up until that point?

My guess is that they drew energy directly from the cosmic strings. They can't do that now because those strings are either bound up in a world, or else connected at the other end to the rampaging Snarl.

[Squire Doodad]

The Snarl stiffs you, though.

Yeah, it's less like doublecrossing the side that wins if you are on it for triple the pay and more like dooming everyone, everywhere, and then being killed by the Snarl.

[The Pilgrim]

What puzzles me somewhat is that the Gods existed before the first world did, when there were no mortals around to feed them souls--so what did they survive on up until that point?

In the Beggining, there was only the Demiurge
The Demiurge was bored, so he began to think
Those thoughts created the Outer Planes
And the Demiurge saw that it was good
though also evil and neutral.

Then, the Demiurge dreamt the Gods
And the Demiurge saw that them were good
but also evil and neutral
and the not good ones wanted to rule
they slayed the Demiurge

Alas, the Gods began to fade
as their essences were fueled
only by the thougths of the Demiurge
So the Gods created the Mortals
to have someone dream about them

[KorvinStarmast]

Alas, the Gods began to fade
as their essences were fueled
only by the thougths of the Demiurge
So the Gods created the Mortals
to have someone dream about them Dream a little dream with me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajwnmkEqYpo).

With strip # 1177, we now see confirmed that Hel may not make it.

[Quild]

I think I'm allowed a small booyakasha :smalltongue:
I wish I'd made my post on #1144 for a longer shot ^^

Anyway, glad to have the answer (even if it won't happen). Still remains the question of how Hel can continue on this world.

Also glad to know why Loki teach his followers to destroy undeads.


Hard to do. Turns out that, even if he didn't believe in Death, Death did believe in him.



Called Hel. So she'd be alive. Again. At which point you'll say something about change, and I'll point to Theseus' Ship.

Grey Wolf


Would she be alive again? Or would this be a new death god(dess) named Hel? (Same ship with a different captain?)

I wasn't familiar with the name "Theseus' Ship" even if I was familiar with the concept (actually from a Scrooge McDuck story where he speaks about his favorite golf club). I'm happy to know it now.

Anyway, I think that if Hel dies between world and Northerners happen to make a new God or Godess of Death ascend, this wouldn't be Hel at all.

Aaaaand, Hel being the Godess of Hel seems to be something she has only been doing since a few worlds. But we didn't knew that.

[The MunchKING]

I
Aaaaand, Hel being the Godess of Hel seems to be something she has only been doing since a few worlds. But we didn't knew that.

What makes you say that?

[Rrmcklin]

The world isn't just. I don't expect a happy ending for everyone. Heck, that may be what the Oracle meant by "for you, at least;" if anyone would object to a happy ending if the Dwarven deal isn't changed, well, the Oracle called it.

I feel like there's a difference between "a happy ending for everyone" and "not addressing the very obvious things I set up to be addressed". Because maybe it's just me, but Mr. Burlew doesn't strike me as the type to go into so much depth with the Bet and how terrible is, and not address it.

Forget how that wouldn't be satisfying for large portions of the audience, he doesn't strike me as the type who'd be satisfied with it himself.


I think I'm allowed a small booyakasha :smalltongue:
I wish I'd made my post on #1144 for a longer shot ^^

Anyway, glad to have the answer (even if it won't happen). Still remains the question of how Hel can continue on this world.

You don't have the answer. Loki being worried that she might not survive isn't a guarantee that she wouldn't. All this did was confirm there's a possibility. There was no definitive "yes, she will" or "no, she won't" said in this latest strip.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I feel like there's a difference between "a happy ending for everyone" and "not addressing the very obvious things I set up to be addressed". Because maybe it's just me, but Mr. Burlew doesn't strike me as the type to go into so much depth with the Bet and how terrible is, and not address it.

Forget how that wouldn't be satisfying for large portions of the audience, he doesn't strike me as the type who'd be satisfied with it himself.

"The world is not fair, this isn't that kind of escapist fantasy, and the dwarves have learnt to cope with it to the point where Hel is half-starved due to getting so few of their souls" is already addressing it.

While it'd love to see the bet finished, dissolved or ameliorated, I do not think it is a requirement or even something to be 100% expected from this story.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I feel like there's a difference between "a happy ending for everyone" and "not addressing the very obvious things I set up to be addressed". Because maybe it's just me, but Mr. Burlew doesn't strike me as the type to go into so much depth with the Bet and how terrible is, and not address it.

He did address it; the Bet means it sucks to be a dwarf, so they created an entire culture based on the one way to get out of being caught up in the Bet. Bam, addressed.

[Rrmcklin]

He did address it; the Bet means it sucks to be a dwarf, so they created an entire culture based on the one way to get out of being caught up in the Bet. Bam, addressed.

That, much like the whole "spot-welding rifts" plan is but a band-aid, and doesn't strike me as particularly satisfying for the story to just end on that. Which is one of several reasons I'm sure that Thor's plan isn't going to be the actual solution.

Like, I'm not saying there's going to be world-peace or all prejudice eliminated by the time the story is ended. Just going that this very much strikes me as the type of story where things like "goblinoids get better lot in life" and "dwarves get out from under the bet" happens. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they'll have to deal with, but no story can show every detail like that anyway.

[Jasdoif]

I feel like there's a difference between "a happy ending for everyone" and "not addressing the very obvious things I set up to be addressed". Because maybe it's just me, but Mr. Burlew doesn't strike me as the type to go into so much depth with the Bet and how terrible is, and not address it.Hm....Does Durkon know about the bet? I mean, he certainly knows about Hel getting the souls of dishonored dwarves...but does he know there's a bet behind it? One Thor is in on?

If not, what happens if he finds out that Thor's tasked him with (alongside saving the world) perpetuating this state of affairs? What if it isn't Thor who reveals it to him?

[Rrmcklin]

Hm....Does Durkon know about the bet? I mean, he certainly knows about Hel getting the souls of dishonored dwarves...but does he know there's a bet behind it? One Thor is in on?

If not, what happens if he finds out that Thor's tasked him with (alongside saving the world) perpetuating this state of affairs? What if it isn't Thor who reveals it to him?

Very interesting questions. I expect/hope they'll come up at some point in the future. Just like how the Order still doesn't know about the Goblins lot in life or why they are the way they are, and I expect they'll have to be informed of that eventually, as well.

[Peelee]

That, much like the whole "spot-welding rifts" plan is but a band-aid, and doesn't strike me as particularly satisfying for the story to just end on that. Which is one of several reasons I'm sure that Thor's plan isn't going to be the actual solution.

Like, I'm not saying there's going to be world-peace or all prejudice eliminated by the time the story is ended. Just going that this very much strikes me as the type of story where things like "goblinoids get better lot in life" and "dwarves get out from under the bet" happens. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they'll have to deal with, but no story can show every detail like that anyway.

The entire Dwarven culture is built around the bet. Do you think the author'll invalidate an entire culture just so one of the many various wronged groups in the comic will get the warm fuzzies (and ignoring other wronged groups like, for example, the black dragons who got genocided because an elf had an ego problem)?

[Rrmcklin]

The entire Dwarven culture is built around the bet. Do you think the author'll invalidate an entire culture just so one of the many various wronged groups in the comic will get the warm fuzzies (and ignoring other wronged groups like, for example, the black dragons who got genocided because an elf had an ego problem)?

Well, I don't think that would invalidate their entire culture, and also consider that some incredibly loaded and skewed wording on your part, so I think it's a moot question. Which, if I'm also being honest, isn't something I'd normally expect of you.

You are misinterpreting what I am saying - it is not "everything has to end all warm and fuzzy" it is "it would feel off for the series to devote so much time to these things, and then not actually address them in a meaningful sense." Going "hey, dwarves that have lived good and morally their entire lives, but died of a disease won't be out of luck anymore" wouldn't somehow invalidate a culture that lead to them living that way.

A better comparison with the dragon example would be if I was arguing that all the souls that Hel already has would retroactively be freed from her grasp, which is not a position I am taking, or have taken.

[Peelee]

Well, I don't think that would invalidate their entire culture, and also consider that some incredibly loaded and skewed wording on your part, so I think it's a moot question. Which, if I'm also being honest, isn't something I'd normally expect of you.

You are misinterpreting what I am saying - it is not "everything has to end all warm and fuzzy" it is "it would feel off for the series to devote so much time to these things, and then not actually address them in a meaningful sense." Going "hey, dwarves that have lived good and morally their entire lives, but died of a disease won't be out of luck anymore" wouldn't somehow invalidate a culture that lead to them living that way.

A better comparison with the dragon example would be if I was arguing that all the souls that Hel already has would retroactively be freed from her grasp, which is not a position I am taking, or have taken.

I didn't intend it to be loaded, but my bias may have blinded me there. Definitely not skewed wording, though; I only use genocide there because the Giant has referred to it as genocide (typically when saying things like "Geez guys yes that was evil, it was genocide").

The world has evil gods which live alongside with good and neutral gods. Good is not the dominant force in the universe. I dont see any more reason for the bet to change than I see reason for the good gods to overpower the evil gods and become the dominant force. It would be a net posotive, it would lead to a better and happier universe, it would alleviate a lot of suffering and damnation for those who suffer and are damned unfairly, but it won't happen. Greysky city won't stop ripping everyone off, the Western Continent won't stop being a war-torn land where the innocent suffer under the heels of ever-changing boots, and I don't think the dwarves will get out if the Bet just because we saw the inner workings a little bit more than the Westerners or Greysky civilians'.

Of course, to be fair, my track record is 1 to infinity, do the odds are on your side here. :smallwink:

[Skull the Troll]

I'm sure that a quarter of the black dragon population are comforted by that.

They are with their families and probably dont care as much. The dwarves have it SO much worse. They are condemned for all eternity - They NEVER get out. Their existance is misery and torture until even the after life doesnt exist.

[Squire Doodad]

I think we have an answer for the main question now:
maybe.

[Schroeswald]

I think we have an answer for the main question now:
maybe.

She could, which means at least some people lost.

[LadyEowyn]

I feel like there's a difference between "a happy ending for everyone" and "not addressing the very obvious things I set up to be addressed". Because maybe it's just me, but Mr. Burlew doesn't strike me as the type to go into so much depth with the Bet and how terrible is, and not address it.

Forget how that wouldn't be satisfying for large portions of the audience, he doesn't strike me as the type who'd be satisfied with it himself.
I agree. Between the dwarves’ situation and the goblins’ situation - and with Durkon being the main negotiator with the goblin leadership, and TDO and/or Redcloak being critical to containing the Snarl - I’m entirely expecting that the injustices baked into the structure of the OOTS are going to be resolved by the end.

Rich’s stated views make it pretty clear that he’s not okay with the heroes upholding an unjust status quo, much less making it permanent.

And the Godsmoot made it apparent that the gods’ interests and the heroes’ interests are not entirely aligned.

[Rrmcklin]

I didn't intend it to be loaded, but my bias may have blinded me there. Definitely not skewed wording, though; I only use genocide there because the Giant has referred to it as genocide (typically when saying things like "Geez guys yes that was evil, it was genocide").

The world has evil gods which live alongside with good and neutral gods. Good is not the dominant force in the universe. I dont see any more reason for the bet to change than I see reason for the good gods to overpower the evil gods and become the dominant force. It would be a net posotive, it would lead to a better and happier universe, it would alleviate a lot of suffering and damnation for those who suffer and are damned unfairly, but it won't happen. Greysky city won't stop ripping everyone off, the Western Continent won't stop being a war-torn land where the innocent suffer under the heels of ever-changing boots, and I don't think the dwarves will get out if the Bet just because we saw the inner workings a little bit more than the Westerners or Greysky civilians'.

Of course, to be fair, my track record is 1 to infinity, do the odds are on your side here. :smallwink:

Again, I'm not talking about Good becoming the dominant force in the world. I'm not talking about all of the world's problems being solved. I don't expect this story to end happily for everyone; I highly suspect that Belkar, Redcloak, and Vaarsuivus to not be fully content, and by the end (sort of an understatement, but you get the point). I don't expect the Azurites to ever reclaim their homeland. And other tragedies could happen. But I do expect that, by the end, the world will be better off than it was at the beginning.

And as for why that "better off" will involving the Bet and Goblinoids lot in life instead of the other injustices of the world, well, because those are the one the story has actually put significant focus on. Just how I imagine that will the Western Continent will not be made a Utopia, some semblance of progress will be made with depose Tarquin and his team beyond.

Now, if you don't agree with some of this, that's fair enough, but saying I'm going on about "warm fuzzies" and feel-good happy endings is unnecessarily dismissive and condescending.

[Peelee]

Now, if you don't agree with some of this, that's fair enough, but saying I'm going on about "warm fuzzies" and feel-good happy endings is unnecessarily dismissive and condescending.

That's a fair point, and I apologize for that. I didn't see how that was coming off when I wrote it, and that's totally on me.

I do think revoking the bet would substantially change how Dwarven culture works, though. These are a people who take joy and solace in a comrade charging a monster to save others and gruesomely dying for it. Who cry tears of joy at believing they'll never see home again while they live, because it still means they'll get to go home and be honorably interred. Things like that just don't work without the framework of the Bet, and it's baked into the very foundations of who the dwarves are. I don't believe that a major race will have their entire society realize it needs to collectively reshape itself from the ground up as a postscript to Order stopping Xykon.

[Jasdoif]

I do think revoking the bet would substantially change how Dwarven culture works, though. These are a people who take joy and solace in a comrade charging a monster to save others and gruesomely dying for it. Who cry tears of joy at believing they'll never see home again while they live, because it still means they'll get to go home and be honorably interred. Things like that just don't work without the framework of the Bet, and it's baked into the very foundations of who the dwarves are. I don't believe that a major race will have their entire society realize it needs to collectively reshape itself from the ground up as a postscript to Order stopping Xykon.It'd work fine; it's got over a thousand years of cultural inertia to support it. Some generations later it'd certainly have adapted; but in the immediate term, dwarves would be living the same lives....and those who die via dishonorable accidents aren't hosed by the timing of their misfortune like they would have been.

[Peelee]

It'd work fine; it's got over a thousand years of cultural inertia to support it. Some generations later it'd certainly have adapted; but in the immediate term, dwarves would be living the same lives....and those who die via dishonorable accidents aren't hosed by the timing of their misfortune like they would have been.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/173/316/86f.gif

[Quild]

What makes you say that?

Loki saying that he tought Hel losing the bet would "amp up her evil death goddess itch" for next world?
Maybe I'm translating that poorly :smallconfused:


Very interesting questions. I expect/hope they'll come up at some point in the future. Just like how the Order still doesn't know about the Goblins lot in life or why they are the way they are, and I expect they'll have to be informed of that eventually, as well.

I don't have the answer to the topic title, but I have the answer to the question I ask in my first post: "So wouldn't she, despite of since how long she's there, be in danger if she does not get Souls on the world's destruction?"

Yes, she would be in danger.
Now that won't happen because the world won't be destroyed.
So the answer is good enough for me.

[Rrmcklin]

Loki saying that he tought Hel losing the bet would "amp up her evil death goddess itch" for next world?
Maybe I'm translating that poorly :smallconfused:

I (and I believe others) took that to just mean she'd get more vindictive about things and start spreading diseases and plagues around willy-nilly, not that she wasn't always a death goddess.

[Fat Rooster]

It'd work fine; it's got over a thousand years of cultural inertia to support it. Some generations later it'd certainly have adapted; but in the immediate term, dwarves would be living the same lives....and those who die via dishonorable accidents aren't hosed by the timing of their misfortune like they would have been.

It will certainly be ingrained in the culture, but I think things would change faster than you think. There are 2 main reasons. The first is that religion in D&D is not like reality. They don't need faith that an afterlife exists, because they can check it. They can measure how their behaviour affects the afterlife they go to, and would probably notice pretty quick when things start going funny. Thor would probably be pretty up front about it anyway.

The second is that culture can take a long time to change because it is as much about group behaviour as individual, but the bet affects everyone on an individual level. An individual does not need the rest of the group to change to benefit from adapting their own behaviour to the change.

[RatElemental]

It will certainly be ingrained in the culture, but I think things would change faster than you think. There are 2 main reasons. The first is that religion in D&D is not like reality. They don't need faith that an afterlife exists, because they can check it. They can measure how their behaviour affects the afterlife they go to, and would probably notice pretty quick when things start going funny. Thor would probably be pretty up front about it anyway.

But what about that time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html) two clerics got told directly by their god something that was culturally ingrained in them was false, and they just stood there staring blankly until he caved in and kept going along with the lie?


The second is that culture can take a long time to change because it is as much about group behaviour as individual, but the bet affects everyone on an individual level. An individual does not need the rest of the group to change to benefit from adapting their own behaviour to the change.

Cowardly dwarves will still be cowardly, and some dwarves who hated the concept of honorable deaths will breathe a sigh of relief, but I don't think the majority would throw their hands up in the air and say "Screw this heroism noise, I get a cushy afterlife either way." Because the whole point of heroism and honor is that you live and breathe it for its own sake, and then when the time comes you're more likely to be in the middle of doing something honorable.

[Jasdoif]

It will certainly be ingrained in the culture, but I think things would change faster than you think. There are 2 main reasons. The first is that religion in D&D is not like reality. They don't need faith that an afterlife exists, because they can check it. They can measure how their behaviour affects the afterlife they go to, and would probably notice pretty quick when things start going funny. Thor would probably be pretty up front about it anyway.

The second is that culture can take a long time to change because it is as much about group behaviour as individual, but the bet affects everyone on an individual level. An individual does not need the rest of the group to change to benefit from adapting their own behaviour to the change.First, I do agree that changes less drastic than the massive upheaval I was talking about, would take less time than the massive upheaval I was talking about.


Second, this isn't an alteration that requires changes on a dwarf's part: Dwarves that die honorable deaths already go to the afterlife that fits with their alignment, the bet only affects the dwarves that don't die honorable deaths. So without the bet, it works the same way for dwarves who continue living as they always have, except without the chance for it all being for naught if death surprises them. And without any need to change how they live/think, the overwhelming majority aren't going to change how they live/think. That's a lot of effort for a mind to go through, after all.

So changes will start among dwarves who want to embrace the changes...which, of course, is far more likely to happen among dwarves who haven't had as many decades/centuries of taking the effects of the bet for granted. Optimistically, we're likely looking at the younger current dwarves with the culture from their parents having "wait, that actually won't risk my (kid's) soul going to Hel" moments in life (over things their parents wouldn't have considered as options long enough to question), and then their children won't really have that as a consideration to begin with...at which point it's a question of how fast/far traditions propagate; The rest of the sapient species of the world already have had the same "deal" all along that the dwarves would now have, and with the "but it's different for dwarves" fact no longer true, who knows how fast change could happen? (Traditions are passed down distinct from their original causes, so it could easily take a lot longer for visible changes to show up)

[KorvinStarmast]

I didn't intend it to be loaded, but my bias may have blinded me there. Definitely not skewed wording, though; I only use genocide there because the Giant has referred to it as genocide (typically when saying things like "Geez guys yes that was evil, it was genocide"). Even though it wasn't and the Giant was, for all that he's a pretty good wordsmith, badly abusing an already abused term .... and he even came up with a far better term in world. (Familicide). I have once again read the old article I had on the origin of that word that was coined to describe a crime that had no name (in the words of a judge at a certain series of trials) but I have to stop there. RL stuff and all that.

[Peelee]

Even though it wasn't and the Giant was, for all that he's a pretty good wordsmith, badly abusing an already abused term

Language evolves. IMO he was correctly using a term that can have more than one connotation that its original literal meaning.

Or, to put another way: have you similarly taken issue with people using the word "decimate" to mean anything other than destruction of 10% of a force?

[Schroeswald]

Language evolves. IMO he was correctly using a term that can have more than one connotation that its original literal meaning.

Or, to put another way: have you similarly taken issue with people using the word "decimate" to mean anything other than destruction of 10% of a force?

I agree V did a genocide, that was the correct analysis.

[Rrmcklin]

V knowingly murdered upwards of 25% of an entire species (plus many others) in a way that would logically have huge repercussions for their society and survival going forward. I fail to see why the term genocide is inappropriate for that. I don't believe genocide has ever had to be total or complete to "count".

[hroþila]

Also, V didn't simply kill 25% of all black dragons - black dragons were specifically targeted. I feel that fits even the most strict definitions of "genocide".

[factotum]

Also, V didn't simply kill 25% of all black dragons - black dragons were specifically targeted.

Well, inasmuch as the spell targeted the relatives of Momma Black Dragon, V thought that meant he was targeting only black dragons--however, as it turned out that wasn't the case! That he accidentally killed a bunch of people who weren't black dragons doesn't make what he did any more or less horrific, of course, it was plenty horrible in the first place.