Unhuman Intelligence and advancing technology

[Conradine]

I was thinking...

if 18 Int is genius level intelligence.
Let's take a mid-high level human mage with a starting Intelligence of 14 ( quite good, nothing exceptional ) who manages to survive until venerable age ( Int +3: 17 ) , three advancements due level ( 20 ), +6 headband of Intelligence (26), then he reads a +5 Tome of Intelligence (31).

With an Intelligence of 30+, if he was so inclined and had enough resources, could a character create modern-level technology from scratch?

[Ashtagon]

What is "enough resources"? With "enough resources", such as for example, Picard's Enterprise, modern-level technology could be quite primitive indeed.

[Crake]

This is honestly something that I think about quite often, and I'm convinced that any exceptionally high int mages with access to fabricate could more than easily replicate modern technology. The question however is, what would they do with that? Magic far eclipses the benefits of modern technology, so such things to a wizard would seem like novelties and nothing more. "Oh, I can make a gun that can shoot 120,000 rounds per minute? Great.. but like... why would I want to do that when I can just cast fireball, or cone of cold, to similar/greater effect?" or "Oh, I can make a turbine generator to create electricity to power a lightbulb.... But why not just use the light spell?" or "Oh, I could design circuitry to create an AI that can perform tasks for me like looking up information in an index.... or I could just create an intelligent item that could do the same and better as it has proper intelligence"

The list goes on and on, right up until you hit the point where technology can actually surpass the raw power of most magic in the form of nuclear weapons. That is the only point where technology actually can beat out magic in sheer power before epic levels, and even then, arguably beyond epic levels too. The question just becomes, what mage will care long enough to actually reach that discovery, assuming the laws of physics in a magic world actually allow for such a thing in the first place?

[Biggus]

Intelligence alone isn't enough, to make major advances you need creativity, an in-depth knowledge of the subject, and lots of time to think about it.

Also, most radical new ideas are thought up by people who are relatively young, older people (even very intelligent ones) tend to get stuck into their existing mindset eventually.

Having said that, it does seem weird that in a world with dozens if not hundreds of creatures with superhuman intelligence in it, that technology seems to advance so slowly. The best explanation I've heard is that in a high-magic world, it's generally easier to create a magical solution to the problem than a technological one, so the highly intelligent tend to spend their time researching new spells instead of new machines.

EDIT: Ninja'd on my last point.

[Conradine]

What is "enough resources"?

I mean metals, minerals, combustibles, time and manpower.

[Crake]

I mean metals, minerals, combustibles, time and manpower.

Considering raw materials are quite possible to create out of thin air, at (potentially) little-to-no cost in the form of dweomerkeepers casting wish or true creation to their heart's content, or shapechanging into zodars for Su wish, or summoning efreeti/solars to use their SLA wishes, the first three are entirely trivial. Then with regards to time and manpower, that is entirely trivialized by fabricate and fabricate alone. Since invention is mostly limited by the time it takes to iterate (build something, test it, find out what didn't work, redesign and repeat), and the time to build an iteration in a dnd world is literally the time it takes to cast fabricate, then the only limiting factor becomes the design phase, which would likewise be sufficiently low for someone with incredibly high intelligence, and presumably a decent number of ranks in the requisite craft skill for the invention they're working on.

[Anachronity]

This is basically a philosophical question. Anything we say about a superhuman intelligence must by nature be speculation.

Modern technology is the result of generations of iteration. I would find it believable that a superhuman intelligence would merely be able to skip a few steps in reaching entirely new discoveries and to do more things in parallel; for example they might form a theory of computers at the same or a similar time as they discover the benefits of hydraulics rather than well afterwards, but the depth of their discoveries in each would only advance slightly faster than for humans (or perhaps much slower if they also need to discern better means of production, energy creation, data storage, and experimentation alongside their new discoveries rather than having them worked out beforehand).


Now, since D&D is fictional it's easy to hand-wave all of that stuff and say "yes, Illithids have highly advanced technology." Not many people are going to argue with you about realism when they're busy re-shaping reality with the right series of words and gestures. However, if a superintelligence creates advanced technology from scratch then it's likely going to be vastly different from our own because while they would have on average more and better ideas, they wouldn't have the exact same ideas. It's possible they would miss some key technologies purely because it would never occur to them despite their acuity. After all, it's hard to argue a 10-Int character has never once had a better idea than a 14-Int character.

[Crake]

It's possible they would miss some key technologies purely because it would never occur to them despite their acuity. After all, it's hard to argue a 10-Int character has never once had a better idea than a 14-Int character.

I think a more important point is that many technologies that wouldn't occur to a super intelligent mage would more likely be from them seeming insignificant. Why invent a car when you can teleport? Hell, why invent a warp drive when you can teleport?

[Conradine]

After all, it's hard to argue a 10-Int character has never once had a better idea than a 14-Int character.

Indeed, but an Int 30+ character is miles above genius level. It's extreme.



I think a more important point is that many technologies that wouldn't occur to a super intelligent mage would more likely be from them seeming insignificant. Why invent a car when you can teleport? Hell, why invent a warp drive when you can teleport?

Well, if we take into account cheesy levels of power ( like Wish sheningans and the like ) , then yes, technology becomes irrelevant. In a world with powerful, but not crazy powerful magic ( like Faerun ) instead, technology would be revolutionary.

About the power of weapons, an high caliber riftle takes down an elephant ( 104 pf ) quite reliably, with a single shot. And that not taking into account anti-tank weapons. The range of heavy riftles is more than 1 mile, few spells can match that.

[Psyren]

Indeed, but an Int 30+ character is miles above genius level. It's extreme.

Is it? I don't see much evidence for the notion that mental stats scale in this way. Yes, an Int 30 character would undeniably be very smart - but does that make them twice as smart as an Int 15 character? Or an Int 20 one? How far up are they really?

Consider that several older dragons and outsiders hit the high 20s for Int all the time. Pit Fiends are Int 26 for example - are we theorizing that you need a wizard in the party in order to outsmart these villains? What was Smaug's Int score when Bilbo outsmarted him, I wonder?

The only one that really translates cleanly to the real world is Strength, which tells you how much weight you can lift with a certain score - I don't think any of the others mean much beyond vague approximations.

[Efrate]

Magic is a limiting factor of technology. Why create something that does the job less effectively and takes more time than an instant item or spell. And also that costs non renewable resources to run maintain or make. You can cheat costs and get raw material feul etc. for free, but then you use that to do something less efficiently that takes more time? Why go by plane when I can teleport? etc.

When magic can do anything, and rather easily, you NEVER need technology. Eberron is better than FR for this, FR is very high magic, and Eberron does have more tech than FR. It also has a lot less high level casters, or casters in general.

[Crake]

About the power of weapons, an high caliber riftle takes down an elephant ( 104 pf ) quite reliably, with a single shot. And that not taking into account anti-tank weapons. The range of heavy riftles is more than 1 mile, few spells can match that.

And a sword can cut through a person in one blow... but hit points are weird like that. D20 modern for example puts most firearms around the 2d8-2d12 range (up to, and including anti-material rifles of the highest calibre, the highest I could find was 4d8, which I think is one step above 2d12), grenade launchers sit around the 2d6-4d6 range, a pound of C4 does 4d6 out to 10ft...

So in a world where the weakest fireball does 5d6 damage, out to 20ft, most modern weapons look pretty weak in comparison. The thing that really distinguishes d20 modern is how they handle massive damage. If you take damage equal to or greater than your con score, you save vs massive damage, but failing the save knocks you to -1 instead of straight dead. Another better representation for such weapons would be the wounds/vitality system, meaning a critical hit (a clean body shot or even head shot) would be quite capable of instantly downing someone.

[pabelfly]

I'd be inclined to say no. Today's technology is built upon the works and efforts of many, many thousands of people toiling away in their respective fields and each of them coming up with the required technologies and discoveries that we base modern society and modern technology on. One super genius could replace a whole bunch of moderately talented people, but they would not be able to match the sheer amount of research and development hours that would be required as one person.

[Conradine]

Mabye a Lich with millennia of free time.



And a sword can cut through a person in one blow... but hit points are weird like that.

Actually a man can't even break through a bronze plate with a single slash, even using a steel weapon, simply because the strenght required is unhuman. Slashing through steel is impossible and even piercing it is extremely hard.

But an heavy rifle shoots through few millimeters of steel like it's butter. There's no comparison.

[Crake]

Actually a man can't even break through a bronze plate with a single slash, even using a steel weapon, simply because the strenght required is unhuman. Slashing through steel is impossible and even piercing it is extremely hard.

But an heavy rifle shoots through few millimeters of steel like it's butter. There's no comparison.

I meant an unarmored human. But my point was more that, despite the fact that a sword can cut through an unarmored human in one blow, a level 10 fighter can take multiple direct blows of a sword while unarmored and continue fighting as if it were nothing, so an elephant taking several high calibre rounds and running off isn't exactly something out of the ordinary by comparison.

[Sepultra]

The Greeks had a concept of particles, so yes they should be able to.

Why don't they? Probably because doing so is outwith the rules under which their universe operates. If we assume that our laws of physics apply to a magical world then there's no reason to assume that someone is unable create black holes by fabricating or creating enough particles within a sufficiently small area.

All it takes is for a wizard to create a spell to see very small things on a whim one day and it all goes downhill from there.

Magically created nukes would be entirely reasonable as well. Likely much more potent nukes than we have today.

[GreatWyrmGold]

With an Intelligence of 30+, if he was so inclined and had enough resources, could a character create modern-level technology from scratch?
No. If he has enough resources, he wouldn't be creating it from scratch.

It's hard to define just how intelligent a certain Intelligence score makes you, and even harder to figure out how being twice as smart as Einstein would impact you, but I feel confident paraphrasing Isaac Newton: Those who see farther are the ones standing on the shoulders of giants. And, in truth, the giants are just people standing on smaller giants' shoulders, ad infinitum.
No single super-genius will surpass in one lifetime what generations of ordinary experts can achieve.

[Inchhighguy]

With an Intelligence of 30+, if he was so inclined and had enough resources, could a character create modern-level technology from scratch?

No.

"Intelligence" does not even start to cover imagination, creativity and vision. And even if the person did have a ''creativity of 30+" that STILL would not be enough.

The big problem is that most people can't think of things that don't exist.....and worse most people are very much 'stuck in their time.

It is easy to think of a vague idea, like being able to fly....but it's a whole other thing to make an airplane. The airplane took years and years of a LOT of different ideas, discoveries and such to be made.

There are plenty of examples. Over just the past century or so lots of people...some of the smartest people in the world ''by the numbers", what the future would be like, and just about EVERYTHING they thought was wrong. Popular Science has some great examples.

[ekarney]

I think the thing is, the approach of a 30 int wizard to developing and inventing things compared to anyone in our own world. For example, the first battery came about as part of a totally unrelated experiment where Luigi Galvani was dissecting a frog, and made it's leg twitch. Alessandro Volta then went "Okay I can do something with this". A 30 int Wizard doesn't want to dissect frogs, he's blown up enough things that he knows "Yep. Frogs have flesh and guts in them" A wizard would likely on;y want to invent things that improve his own life, which means until he invents something that requires a power source, a battery is totally irrelevant.

Not to mention, we've discussed the Wizard hypothetically having an innumerate amount of ideas for this thought experiment, but that still means that it's starting at step 0. Just because the wizard goes "Okay I'm going to invent a mundane power source that isn't a windmill or waterwheel" doesn't mean, that even with 30 int, he's going to have any idea how. This goes back to the topic of iterative inventions, people expanding on each others work, now sure that was slow in the old days, because you had to be rich and educated to be a scientist, now it's a much more achievable goal, with teams of people, and research funding and all that. This is because previous experiments provided a base to build from, going back to the battery example. Galvani realised that electricity could be transmitted through metal, and Volta proved that. He experimented with various metals, because he was operating on the Contact Tension theory, which is regarded as wrong, because the current is actually produced by chemistry, not some weird friction effect.

Finally, intelligence is your capacity for learning, not the sum of all learned things. This wizard still needs to have a total theoretical (Can't be practical since very little experiments have been done to learn from) understanding of advanced math, chemistry, physics and all those other crazy things. So in game very few places offer this learning, he might have to take a few levels in Geometer for his math skills, be invested into necromancy for his biology (I doubt Druids enjoy dissecting things), Be VERY invested into creating potions that function in an anti-magic zone for his chemistry, and god knows where he's gonna learn physics from. Then he'll still have to expand, You think the guy who made the first calculator would have any idea how to create a program like Photoshop for example? So from there he'd have to learn all sorts of engineering skills too. So what we're looking at here ends up being some Lich/Geometer/Necromancer who's still good aligned because a lot of these inventions only help people who aren't him, and assuming the cost to sell, and transport these things, a lot of it has to come out of his pocket for little-no return.

[Crake]

It is easy to think of a vague idea, like being able to fly....but it's a whole other thing to make an airplane. The airplane took years and years of a LOT of different ideas, discoveries and such to be made.

That's the thing though, right? The reason it took so long was because every iteration required: sourcing materials, sourcing experienced labour, manhours to shape the materials as per your design, testing while attempting to keep testing environments somewhat safe, analyzing the tests and reiterating upon the original design.

Arguably, sourcing material, labour and the manhours to shape the materials are the longest parts of that process, and it just so happens that with magic, those parts can be almost entirely eliminated. As such, invention simply comes down to: design, cast spells to craft, test, analyze, reiterate. Depending on your level, you could build and test a handful of prototypes in a single day, where such a process would have otherwise taken days, weeks, or perhaps even months.

That is what makes an intelligent mage so easily able to advance technology, not just his raw intelligence, but his ability to so rapidly progress through the steps in design and reiteration.

[Ashtagon]

I mean metals, minerals, combustibles, time and manpower.

Given that this is all ordinary people have, then yes. Obviously yes. The only real question now is how long do they take?

[Conradine]

No single super-genius will surpass in one lifetime what generations of ordinary experts can achieve.

I agree, but high level spellcaster can live virtually forever.

[Malphegor]

One super genius could replace a whole bunch of moderately talented people, but they would not be able to match the sheer amount of research and development hours that would be required as one person.

tbh, from even within these forums, it seems like everyone's high level wizard endgame is 'be in a time accelerated demiplane, thinking and researching all possible things'. Which ultimately results in chaotic surges in technological and societal uplifting, mass damage to existing systems, and all around bad times for all involved.

You probably could get an immortal wizard rapidly researching this stuff, including the best way to introduce it without too much chaos and damage to existing structures....

But progress is slow. Even if a wizard came by and went 'hey people, this is how you get from weird Iron Age/Medieval mashups to Acubierre engines and limitless supply of all low order needs to better allow you all to achieve your higher order needs, bringing you closer to self-actualisation' it'll take a good, long time until that message really sinks in and society changes as a result.

I imagine, since the fantasy mess is plane-wide and even mutliplanar, most D&D universes are super resistant to change, and any changes done by this wizard Reed Richards type will probably not propagate.

After all, as the trope goes, Reed Richards is Useless.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That's the thing though, right? The reason it took so long was because every iteration required: sourcing materials, sourcing experienced labour, manhours to shape the materials as per your design, testing while attempting to keep testing environments somewhat safe, analyzing the tests and reiterating upon the original design.

Our current level of technology is the result of millennia of progress. If you start at DnD's middle ages you have over 800 years to go and many of the most modern inventions were done with the help of tools whose ability to solve problems dramatically exceeds an int 30 wizard. Int 30 is amazing but I feel like it is being dramatically overvalued here.

[unseenmage]

Tech is useful because it is neither Su nor Sp. Both things wizards have a plethora of protections from.

I rather appreciate how PF handled tech. Just price it like magic but the effects are Ex.

Because given a magical understanding of the universe a mage would invent magic-like effects would they not?

[Crake]

Our current level of technology is the result of millennia of progress. If you start at DnD's middle ages you have over 800 years to go and many of the most modern inventions were done with the help of tools whose ability to solve problems dramatically exceeds an int 30 wizard. Int 30 is amazing but I feel like it is being dramatically overvalued here.

I mean, is it really millenia? We've had a few stages in our history where we've gone quite severely backward in our technological advancements. I mean, we went from dark ages, to where we are now in 700 years or so, and that's like, the rough lifespan of a single elf. So if generations of people having to constantly re-learn things with every generation, could get there, then one person who doesn't need to keep relearning, and who can reiterate on designs much much faster, should be able to get there far quicker.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I mean, is it really millenia? We've had a few stages in our history where we've gone quite severely backward in our technological advancements. I mean, we went from dark ages, to where we are now in 700 years or so, and that's like, the rough lifespan of a single elf. So if generations of people having to constantly re-learn things with every generation, could get there, then one person who doesn't need to keep relearning, and who can reiterate on designs much much faster, should be able to get there far quicker.

Backwards on some aspects, forward on others. Don't buy into the Victorian Era garbage of the Dark Ages being some terrible time of profound ignorance and humanity sliding backwards. There was many an advancement during that time in science and culture. The Carolingian Script of the 800's forms the backbones of modern scripts.

Remember, as was pointed out, the older someone gets the less likely they are to accept new ideas and selves are extremely slow learners. Even inborn powers take them longer to master the basics of then it takes a human to learn arcane magic from scratch by a factor of TWO. By the time this venerable wizard hits 30 Int he will have "figured out" the world and be spending his energies on proving himself right, not creating vast advancements.

[Crake]

Remember, as was pointed out, the older someone gets the less likely they are to accept new ideas and selves are extremely slow learners. Even inborn powers take them longer to master the basics of then it takes a human to learn arcane magic from scratch by a factor of TWO. By the time this venerable wizard hits 30 Int he will have "figured out" the world and be spending his energies on proving himself right, not creating vast advancements.

I'm not sure where you get this idea from, that elves are slow learners? If it's based on the fact that their starting adventuring age is above 100 years, that's an incorrect assumption based on what races of the wild tells us. The reason elves take that long to become adventurers is because they spend the first 100 years or so of their lives dabbling in all manner of things.

Also, the notion that as people get older, they're less likely to accept new ideas is an unfounded myth that has no actual basis beyond stereotypes of staunch, stubborn old people who refuse to change.

[Conradine]

In my opinion there is a basis of truth in the old-stubborn-people archetipe. Old people usually are tired, often a bit world weary, and alway much less energetic and active respect to their youth. So they naturally tend to stagnation.

But if an old person could rejuvenate himself ( like, liberal use of Steal Life AFTER becoming venerable ) he could probably have both the experience and the vigor.



many of the most modern inventions were done with the help of tools whose ability to solve problems dramatically exceeds an int 30 wizard.

Ok, true, but a wizard can create things like magical microscopes, computers and the like, in short he can use magic to better understand the natural world.

Another thing, Wisdom represents - among other things - intuition. With a decent start Wisdom ( 12 ), the bonus from venerable age ( 15 ), a +5 tome ( 20 ) and a +6 amulet ( 26 ) he can reach unhuman Wisdom levels too.

A combination of Int 30 and Wis 26 looks like really powerful.

[Crake]

In my opinion there is a basis of truth in the old-stubborn-people archetipe. Old people usually are tired, often a bit world weary, and alway much less energetic and active respect to their youth. So they naturally tend to stagnation.

But if an old person could rejuvenate himself ( like, liberal use of Steal Life AFTER becoming venerable ) he could probably have both the experience and the vigor.

Or just reincarnation spam.

[lord_khaine]

Int 30 is amazing but I feel like it is being dramatically overvalued here.

Yeah. I think thats the relevant bit here.
Its just limited how much a single person, no matter how smart, will be able to do.
Science just dont work that way. There are far to many inventions that comes from a happy coincidence of the right person observing the right action, and going "huh.. thats weird?"



Also, the notion that as people get older, they're less likely to accept new ideas is an unfounded myth that has no actual basis beyond stereotypes of staunch, stubborn old people who refuse to change.

This i disagree with. I think its extremely well founded from repeated observations on how the previous generation handles the habbits and technology of the new one.

[Crake]

This i disagree with. I think its extremely well founded from repeated observations on how the previous generation handles the habbits and technology of the new one.

From my observation, this is something inherent to people, it doesn't come with age. If someone is easily adaptive and able to learn new technology, they're like that their whole life, but the ones who can't or won't, are also like that when they're young, the only time age becomes an issues is when actual mental deterioration begins to set in.

[Elkad]

It's not the nuclear weapons or planet-cracking antimatter bombs, it's the little stuff.

Absent full Tippyverse, things like the bicycle and overshot water wheel are massive game changers for the muggles.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I mean, is it really millenia? We've had a few stages in our history where we've gone quite severely backward in our technological advancements.
Not really. We've lost social developments and stopped maintaining infrastructure, but technology was maintained and continued to advance through the Dark Ages. The only time I can think of that the Europe/Mediterranean region has had anything like a proper technological decline was the Bronze Age Collapse, and that only collapsed so badly because everyone and their neighbors had a bad time at once.
With the exception of isolated cultures (e.g, Rapa Nui), it's really hard for technological developments to be lost. If someone remembers, or if someone lives close enough to the results of a given technology, it's too easy to figure out how it worked and spread it again.

[Malphegor]

Didn’t we lose (decent quality) concrete for a while between Roman to near-modern industrial times?

[CIDE]

Aren't there gods in multiple settings actively against this very concept?

[Elkad]

Didn’t we lose (decent quality) concrete for a while between Roman to near-modern industrial times?

Arguably we still haven't gotten back to the Roman standard. But part of that is laziness. We know seawater and volcanic ash makes better concrete than sand and filtered water, and we know that if it's so thick you have to pound it into the forms with a maul it's better. We just don't bother.

[Psychoalpha]

Consider that several older dragons and outsiders hit the high 20s for Int all the time. Pit Fiends are Int 26 for example - are we theorizing that you need a wizard in the party in order to outsmart these villains? What was Smaug's Int score when Bilbo outsmarted him, I wonder?

Recognizing deception is a function of Wisdom, not Intelligence. ;D

[NichG]

External factors contribute so much to the rate of human advancement (in which the biological elements of our intelligence have been more or less constant). We can point at eras where major advances were decades or centuries apart, while in other periods we see bursts of advancements every 2-5 years or so. So a smart wizard isolating themselves to develop stuff on a demiplane may paradoxically invent things much slower than a population of 100 million commoners and experts and such of unaugmented intelligence who are operating in a social context that encourages invention, collaboration, exchange of information, etc.

If D&D land is dominated by guilds who use a handful of high level characters to enforce secrecy and monopoly by force, I can see a setting where there are occasional examples of custom high tech installations made to order, but no general spread of technology.

[Endarire]

Consider Thomas Edison. He was a man of many inventions who made the late 1800s and the early 1900s the technological revolution that it was. He had helpers, yes, but it was largely because of his diligence that society has or had many, many things.

Imagine someone with even more time, talent, and mind space. Such a being would also need ample motivation and resource access to do something comparable or better.

[Efrate]

Edison was also a blatant thief who worked for the Patent office and put his name on tons of stuff that was not his. Not a total hack but not a shining example.

Also quantifying insane int is difficult at best, if its quadratic like strength is, it is so far beyond our conception that we cannot hope to process it.

I also am unsure why anyone who can study (and adventure) and rearrange reality at a whim would bother with doing stuff the hard way except as a weird mental exercise.

The grounding basics of science do not exist in a world where you can more or less ignore real world standards. You can create AND destroy matter AND energy, bend time or ignore any real world limitation easily. Without those and similar constraints forcing you to think a new way around a problem, you just won't. You can magic your way around nearly any limitations very easily, so the drive and creativity to overcome the most common problems let alone more complex ones will not be present.

The tool exist which solve all manner of issues easily, and that tool is magic.

[druid91]

Well, at least in forgotten realms, part of the issue is that the gods don't like things that disrupt the balance of power overmuch. That's why you need to make smokepowder rather than just gunpowder. Because someone made gunpowder and the gods threw a fit and rewrote reality to make it not work.

[Ashtagon]

Arguably we still haven't gotten back to the Roman standard. But part of that is laziness. We know seawater and volcanic ash makes better concrete than sand and filtered water, and we know that if it's so thick you have to pound it into the forms with a maul it's better. We just don't bother.

Harder/more durable concrete is not necessarily "better".

We recognise that our buildings are not going to be needed forever, so we choose materials that won't last forever. In some regards, Roman style concrete would actually be worse, because it makes taking down the buildings when they reach the end of their useful life that much harder.

It's a mix of that and cost:benefit analysis.

[Elkad]

Harder/more durable concrete is not necessarily "better".

We recognise that our buildings are not going to be needed forever, so we choose materials that won't last forever. In some regards, Roman style concrete would actually be worse, because it makes taking down the buildings when they reach the end of their useful life that much harder.

It's a mix of that and cost:benefit analysis.

And that would make sense if we didn't make bridges out of the cheap stuff. Or at least actually tore them down when they reached End of Life, instead of just painting over the cracks until it falls in the river during rush hour.