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The Giant
2006-02-08, 06:43 AM
Last few comics were awfully wordy. Enjoy.

somatic
2006-02-08, 06:46 AM
Gah! He has given up his awesome hiding space and now the she-devil has a shot at him! Curses!

Dhavaer
2006-02-08, 06:50 AM
Hooray for lack of pepper!
I loved the expression on Belkar's face when he climbed out.

Oh, and so as to uphold tradition: Woot! First page, etc, etc.

Vitellio
2006-02-08, 06:50 AM
I'll stop lurking in order to compliment you on the quality of your last comics!
It's soms weeks that each one surpasses the one before it!

And nice save for belkar in his hobbit-taste!
now it's time to sneak and finish her!
GOGOGO!

Vitellio

Maryring
2006-02-08, 06:52 AM
Woohoo. That one was hilarious. The expressions of both the combatants at all times were simply priceless.

And first page yattayattayatta. There. Done.

team56th
2006-02-08, 06:52 AM
First page. Yay!!!

This strip, too, was cool. It seems like Belkar will escape Azure city...

Oorlof
2006-02-08, 06:54 AM
Huzzah! Cool comic, Giant. "Meanwhile, outside..." Now, the question rises...do they throw away the soup, now that it's been Belkarized?

Karellen
2006-02-08, 06:55 AM
Ah, more Belkar vs. Miko! So, the question is - is this the premature end of the duel, or will we get an actual winner?

phlip
2006-02-08, 06:57 AM
Now, the million-dollar question: will Miko realise Belkar isn't kersplat? Or will she just leave him for dead?

Tune in next time to find out!
Or... maybe not...

Tune in next time to find out whether or not we'll find out!


Personally I doubt Miko'd leave him without a Smite Evil or two...

zzyss
2006-02-08, 06:57 AM
How come Miko still has hair?

Dhavaer
2006-02-08, 07:00 AM
How come Miko still has hair?

Damage doesn't seem to affect apprarance apart from scars and so on.

Ikkitosen
2006-02-08, 07:02 AM
How come Miko still has hair?

Because unless they're using the Wound Point system, HP loss doesn't lead to scarring except for flavour :).

Great comic Giant, go Belkar!!

RBloom0566
2006-02-08, 07:03 AM
To paraphrase an old saying...
"Out of the soup pot and ON TO THE STABLE!!!"

tis_tom
2006-02-08, 07:04 AM
WOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! :D

Go Miko! Kick that evil little halfling's ass!!!

Ilover_Juventad
2006-02-08, 07:10 AM
IRON CHEF! WOOOOO!

Hahaha, lots of laughs! Great one!

brummeren
2006-02-08, 07:13 AM
What's with the soup?

diapsid
2006-02-08, 07:14 AM
And on that day, humans discovered the delicious taste of halfling...In the soup wars that followed, the casualties were astronomical...not a single hobbit went uneaten...

Great comic as usual Rich!

nerve
2006-02-08, 07:15 AM
soup 4 one:

same procedure as last fight, miko?
same procedure as EVERY fight, belkar..!

;D

Vargtass
2006-02-08, 07:16 AM
How come Miko still has hair?

If she's been able to squeeze in the occasional lay-on-hands, the burns would probably also be the first to heal (if there's a choice). After all, it seems the saké only provided normal fire (as could be expected).

I have a question: Does Halfling drop soup refer to something other than the obvious (Some kind of wordplay that I'm missing? My kitchen-English is not as updated as I would like it to be. Otherwise, the soup looks like Swedish yellow pea soup, but then the arrak-liqueur (punsch) is what's missing)?

Freelance Henchman
2006-02-08, 07:18 AM
Ha! Take that Belkar! Go Miko!

I doubt the fight is over. This has to end in blood. (Halfling blood, heh heh! :-) )

Alfryd
2006-02-08, 07:21 AM
OhmiGods! How did I miss this?

Last few comics were awfully wordy. Enjoy.
Mmm. Evilicious. And punctual, I might add.

Sol
2006-02-08, 07:25 AM
I have a question: Does Halfling drop soup refer to something other than the obvious (Some kind of wordplay that I'm missing? My kitchen-English is not as updated as I would like it to be. Otherwise, the soup looks like Swedish yellow pea soup, but then the arrak-liqueur (punsch) is what's missing)?

Egg drop soup. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_drop_soup)

It's chinese, and therefore somewhat in keeping with the oriental theme of azure city.

Quixote
2006-02-08, 07:25 AM
I feel that there's a pun here that everyone else thinks is so obvious that they don't think it's worth mentioning, but I'm not the best at deciphering puns...

Psymon
2006-02-08, 07:36 AM
Egg drop soup. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_drop_soup)

Ahem, couldn't resist.

Norri_Windwalker
2006-02-08, 07:36 AM
Great comic though I really hope that Belkar wins it cause I can't stand Miko ^^;

I also needed someone to explain that with the egg-drop-soup (I am from germany)... muchos gracias!

Seems to me that it is "Miko 1 : 1 Belkar" right now - I am pretty excited how it will end...

Greets,

Norri

Ilover_Juventad
2006-02-08, 07:40 AM
Ahem, couldn't resist.


Hahahahahaha! Ye'll have some professional hackers chasin' ye tail now. ;D

-IJ

Chaos
2006-02-08, 07:41 AM
I feel that there's a pun here that everyone else thinks is so obvious that they don't think it's worth mentioning, but I'm not the best at deciphering puns...

Yeah. Join the club.


Itīs still a great strip,though. And it has to one of the earliest ever... I mean, the OP of this thread is timestamped what... 5:43 AM East Coast Time? :o, if I may say so.

But, speaking as a European, Iīm happy whenver strips are up early, because that gives me the opportunity to read them on the same day, instead of on the next. Please keep that up, Giant! (Although it doesnīt have to be 5:43 AM, of course - 10 AM or noon-ish is still more than enough)

Dark_Stalion
2006-02-08, 07:57 AM
He he he, halfling drop soup. That is so random. I suppose it was the only way of saving Belkar (i.e. being random) short of Miko herself grabbing him due to her sence of honor, and I'm not sure even that streaches far enough. Beats by far the old trampoline or matress senario. C'est tres bien, Giant. ;D

nerve
2006-02-08, 07:59 AM
I also needed someone to explain that with the egg-drop-soup (I am from germany)... muchos gracias!



German translation: I guess "Eierstich" fits best ;)

Adeptus
2006-02-08, 08:00 AM
The Voice of Mod: Flaming or personal insults of any kind are against the rules here.

Sorry about that. Sabotaging Wikipedia just to make a joke just isn't funny.

Psymon
2006-02-08, 08:03 AM
The original flame has been scrubbed, so too is the quote.

Woah! Someone got out of bed the wrong side. I fail to see the huge problem, I've written several articles for wikipedia of considerable length, i'm hardly bringing it down. I didnt delete anything from the article just added a little something.

If its such a huge problem for you, just edit it out.

Oh and I really dont appriciate your use of the B word.

Ebon_Drake
2006-02-08, 08:05 AM
Great strip. I like how crazy Miko looks in the first panel, and the "schlash" in the third panel looks harsh! Hopefully the fight isn't over, surely Miko isn't stupid enough to not look over the edge.

Kanashimi
2006-02-08, 08:18 AM
awesome strip. I was looking forward to the continuation of Mixo vs. Belkar. Hafling Drop Soup Ha!

Mormegil
2006-02-08, 08:19 AM
Is it just me or did anybody else not notice Belkar's hair until this strip?

Single Shot Zombie
2006-02-08, 08:21 AM
Ummm, he has HAD hair since episode 1: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=1

It's just that Belkar's done a crew-cut, so he looks bald.

Darius Midnite
2006-02-08, 08:23 AM
Good strip..
But why the frigin' f*** would anyone be standing outside with a big bowl of soop?
;)

Odd_Thomas
2006-02-08, 08:24 AM
It seems that rolling around in flames has affected miko none...

Krelios
2006-02-08, 08:27 AM
As much as I was looking forward to more with Belkar and Miko, I hate to say this comic was really lame. Six panels of running (which could have been 1 or 2) and then a bad joke? Wow. Guess the Giant was running late when he decided to put this one up.

sithninjapirate
2006-02-08, 08:31 AM
Yes, but, they've been daily for some time now.

BardicLasher
2006-02-08, 08:43 AM
As much as I was looking forward to more with Belkar and Miko, I hate to say this comic was really lame. Six panels of running (which could have been 1 or 2) and then a bad joke? Wow. Guess the Giant was running late when he decided to put this one up.


I do have to agree. After the pure awesomeness that was 270, this left much to be desired...

I understand that we missed a big chunk of the fighting due to the storytelling, but starting with them outside (when they'd been left off inside), and then having none of Belkar's awesome commentary just disappointed me.

Well, hopefully the fight's not over yet... And if it's not, I'm sure there's time for plenty more awesome.

TarSheva
2006-02-08, 08:47 AM
Yea! What a great follow-up to such a weighty strips lately.

Absolutely loved the expression on Belkar and the second cook's faces!

Lao_Dragon_Ninja
2006-02-08, 08:51 AM
Awesome, that put a smile on my face thats likely to stay on my face for today.

Amalthea
2006-02-08, 08:52 AM
BWAHAHAHAHA
*cough* *wheeze*
I love it. I can't stop laughing. I actually woke up my husband...

heehee, 'needs pepper' ;D

Jaqrabbit
2006-02-08, 08:57 AM
Good strip..
But why the frigin' f*** would anyone be standing outside with a big bowl of soop?
;)

Clearly, to catch a falling halfling. How else would you make Halfling Drop Soup? ;)

Halfling saved from certain death by food.... That's just too funny... ;D

Blaznak
2006-02-08, 09:03 AM
Nice switch up after the weighty Crayon episodes!
Later, Stickies

Vaarsuvius_Prime
2006-02-08, 09:04 AM
Is halfling drop soup exist? Why I saw this name in wiki?
Egg drop soup is good!

Lady_Orc
2006-02-08, 09:13 AM
The expression on Belkar's face in the last panel was very cute, and I liked the easygoing Tom and Jerry feel to the comic as a nice contrast to the more serious (if still very interesting) crayon ones.

jmucchiello
2006-02-08, 09:14 AM
Where are the Miko lovers complaining she shouldn't be smiling at Belkar's apparent fall to his death?

And even more odd is that the big bowl of soup has battlements behind it. So not only is it a big bowl of soup outside, but a big bowl of soup up on the wall of the city. Perhaps they repeal invaders with boiling soup? Certainly makes sense with the following:


And on that day, humans discovered the delicious taste of halfling...In the soup wars that followed, the casualties were gastronomical...not a single hobbit went uneaten...
Fixed.

MagFlare
2006-02-08, 09:16 AM
I didnt delete anything from the article just added a little something.

I thought it was pretty darned funny, although it would've been even funnier if "halfling" were spelled correctly. ;)

Devoured_Dude
2006-02-08, 09:17 AM
I hope everyone who was freaked out when Miko was set ablaze by sake is feeling better now. She took a little damage and she keeps going.

I honestly never knew what the fuss was about. If you're playing a game called Dungeons and Dragons, you should expect to be set on fire on a regular basis. If you're squeamish about immolation, play Hugs and Handshakes or find a less disturbing hobby.

Belkar didn't even get scalded from the hot soup! That's one tough halfling.

Amalthea
2006-02-08, 09:17 AM
Where are the Miko lovers complaining she shouldn't be smiling at Belkar's apparent fall to his death?

Mostly because we're smiling with her. ::)

evileeyore
2006-02-08, 09:23 AM
I honestly never knew what the fuss was about. If you're playing a game called Dungeons and Dragons, you should expect to be set on fire on a regular basis. If you're squeamish about immolation, play Hugs and Handshakes or find a less disturbing hobby.
Especially if your a Peasant!

Burninating the countryside! Burninating the Peasants!

Or would that be Treasures and Trogdor?

Xianthe
2006-02-08, 09:25 AM
And even more odd is that the big bowl of soup has battlements behind it. So not only is it a big bowl of soup outside, but a big bowl of soup up on the wall of the city. Perhaps they repeal invaders with boiling soup?


Hot Egg Drop Soup is a nasty thing to spill/have spilled on you. It's very sticky.

I think it's a decent defense for a city.

Daavi_Tues
2006-02-08, 09:43 AM
Hot Egg Drop Soup is a nasty thing to spill/have spilled on you. It's very sticky.

I think it's a decent defense for a city.


Yes, but halflings are immune to all damage caused by foodstuffs, as well as all effects, including but not limited to the effects of a Tanglefoot Bag, which would tick any other being off as HELL(s).

Zink
2006-02-08, 09:44 AM
It seems that rolling around in flames has affected miko none...

It also seems that falling several feet into a bowl of boiling soup had no effect on Belkar... such a shame. And Miko was affected - see the little scorch mark on her armor?

This was a lovely strip. It's always good to see Miko smiling.

Hurlbut
2006-02-08, 09:45 AM
It also seems that falling several feet into a bowl of boiling soup had no effect on Belkar... such a shame. And Miko was affected - see the little scorch mark on her armor?

This was a lovely strip. It's always good to see Miko smiling.Hot? Yes.
Boiling? No.

The Giant
2006-02-08, 09:46 AM
As much as I was looking forward to more with Belkar and Miko, I hate to say this comic was really lame. Six panels of running (which could have been 1 or 2) and then a bad joke? Wow. Guess the Giant was running late when he decided to put this one up.

Actually, today's strip took three times as long to make as the previous one, due to the art involved. It is exactly as I intended it, an action break from the long-winded speeches of the past week. Believe it or not, some people enjoy comics with less than 1000 words sometimes.

I think if my record with posting comics extremely late should have proven anything, it's that I don't EVER rush them. :P

cruciare
2006-02-08, 09:47 AM
Great strip today! We need more of Belkar and Miko going at it .. in a combat sort of way ... but would it not be odd if they ... never mind. My brain hurts now.

Zargon
2006-02-08, 09:48 AM
After over a week of fairly serious (but wonderful) comics, we have fun one that completely changes the pace and adds some silly comedy (soup for you!) lest we take things a bit too seriously. I like it!
And Belkar must have some mad skills/abililtys to run on top of the castle wall (merlon?) while aiming backwards throwing daggers, and only missing due to some dodge moves by Miko!
Miko and Belkar both look quite a bit more injured so there was fighting scenes in between here and the previous strip.
That is so like Belkar in the middle of a fight to notice lack of pepper (hmmm... who else would notice something like that in those circumstances - maybe Elan?). Belkar is lasting way longer than the full team combined.
If he wouldn't have hit soup, would his light weight reduced falling damage (if he didn't have any skill that helped with falling)?
Strip 6 - one of the few times that Miko smiles (dare I say evily). She is playing Belkar's game, but not on his terms anymore.

Bozidar
2006-02-08, 09:56 AM
;D
Great strip, Giant.

Belkar must have made his reflex save when he landed in the soup, and if he's got rogue levels, evasion kicks in..

The thing i'm wondering is, with Miko up on the castle wall, and the halfling at the bottom, will she jump in the soup to go catch him?


Also, how'd he fail his balance check on the castle wall? A halfling? If he's got at least 5 ranks of tumble (he must), he gets a +2 synergy on that balance check, plus his dex bonus -- we're talking at least a +6 without ever putting a rank in it, which he probably has.

Fun stuff.. thanks, Rich.

kierthos
2006-02-08, 09:59 AM
;D
Great strip, Giant.

Belkar must have made his reflex save when he landed in the soup, and if he's got rogue levels, evasion kicks in..

The thing i'm wondering is, with Miko up on the castle wall, and the halfling at the bottom, will she jump in the soup to go catch him?


Also, how'd he fail his balance check on the castle wall? A halfling? If he's got at least 5 ranks of tumble (he must), he gets a +2 synergy on that balance check, plus his dex bonus -- we're talking at least a +6 without ever putting a rank in it, which he probably has.

Fun stuff.. thanks, Rich.

Well, considering Belkar's previously noted unwise choices of no ranks in Spot and 1 rank in Survival, clearly, he didn't think Balance would be a good skill either. He does seem to have sunk a number of points in Hide and Move Silently, though.

phillyphil
2006-02-08, 10:01 AM
He saw the soup at the bottom, jumped then used his tumble... DUH! ;D

RebelRogue
2006-02-08, 10:05 AM
Not my favorite strip by any means, but a nice change of pace. Plus I just love it when Belkar shows his refined sense of taste ;D

Serraco
2006-02-08, 10:13 AM
Let's go, Belkar! *clap clap clapclapclap* Let's go, Belkar! *clap clap clapclapclap*

Now it's time to find another hiding spot and humilate Miko more! Well, that and find a couple CLW potions. "Hear me, [Belkar]. Hold together."

Hydro
2006-02-08, 10:18 AM
You could have actually drawn Miko's immolation in hideous detail and it still wouldn't have been as cringe-enducing as this last comic.

*winces again at the thought of Belkar getting soup into that new cut*

I'd rather take full falling damage.

Eldhrin
2006-02-08, 10:20 AM
Fantastic! A perfect change of pace from the also-fantastic wordy comics of the last couple of weeks, and some great visual humour. Thankyou Giant!

'Needs Pepper' indeed. I contend that Elan might have noticed this too, but he'd have been more likely to stop to drink some soup, and thus get caught again.

Wouldn't be surprised if Miko climbs right down the castle wall or something in pursuit. Pity for her that she can't cast Feather Fall, but I'm sure Belkar's quite pleased about that.

Vengeful_Hand
2006-02-08, 10:25 AM
I heartily agree with Belkar for the second time (when in doubt, set something on fire). I have yet to meet a savory dish that was not improved by pepper. Yee! I am glad to see this good old combat returned to and enjoyed a break from the "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away" stuff. A good story needs some of both. :)

Giant, please disregard all naysayers and get some sleep. ;)

Tomada
2006-02-08, 10:29 AM
I wonder how many kitchen knives belkar is going to get with then?

As for Miko?

I think ops... this can be considered spoiler...

She is starting to be sadistic, she not only smiles for her advancements, she ENJOY Belkar's... bad luck falling...

DOOM2099
2006-02-08, 10:33 AM
Gooo Belkar! No mere soup can stop Belkar!

Tomada
2006-02-08, 10:34 AM
I hope everyone who was freaked out when Miko was set ablaze by sake is feeling better now. She took a little damage and she keeps going.

I honestly never knew what the fuss was about. If you're playing a game called Dungeons and Dragons, you should expect to be set on fire on a regular basis. If you're squeamish about immolation, play Hugs and Handshakes or find a less disturbing hobby.

Belkar didn't even get scalded from the hot soup! That's one tough halfling.


And let's not forget THEY ARE ACTORS!

I'm sure the director provided every resourse to make sure no one is hurt in those scenes!

Jarawara
2006-02-08, 10:43 AM
"And let's not forget THEY ARE ACTORS!

I'm sure the director provided every resourse to make sure no one is hurt in those scenes!"


Should there be a sign after every Goblin combat scene: "No Goblins were harmed in the making of this strip. No, not even with the Great Cleavage."

Supagoof
2006-02-08, 10:51 AM
Superior comic ;D. Now would it be before or after Belkar's body taste that the soup needs pepper? Let us not forget, he has been in battle with Miko for many panels now (assuming the time in the strips continues linear) so he has to have built up a sweat :-/, which is now in the soup.

Belkar's special sauce. :-X Need I say more.

Awesome break to the other storyline. When will they merge again? Will our adventurer's prevail? Stay tooned, same time, same channel.

OzymandiasVolt
2006-02-08, 10:52 AM
...great, now I'm hungry.

SimonMoon5
2006-02-08, 10:57 AM
Itīs still a great strip,though. And it has to one of the earliest ever...

Yeah, what the heck is going on? It's not even Thursday yet, but Wednesday's strip is up. This is so weird...

???

;)

Deuce
2006-02-08, 10:59 AM
So that's the secret ingredent :o

Ancient Azurian secret my foot . . .

:P

The_Weirdo
2006-02-08, 11:25 AM
See, THAT is one of the main differences between Miko and Belkar. Miko CARES. Belkar just lost round 2 of the combat, falling into soup, and his only remark was "needs pepper". Miko would be throwing one of her LN hissy fits by now...

Adeptus
2006-02-08, 11:36 AM
And let's not forget THEY ARE ACTORS!

I'm sure the director provided every resourse to make sure no one is hurt in those scenes!

I'd say it's more of a case of them being player character's in a meta-gaming-humor kind of way. When they aren't in the lime light, and the player's attention is away the character's get a little "me time" off camera.

Not actors as such, but they can go and enjoy a quick smoke behind the set on occasion. Then the game gets going again, and the world becomes more real once again.

Or that's how it feels to me anyway. What happens is too real to the OotS:ers for them to feel like actors.

Tim
2006-02-08, 11:40 AM
Now I wonder. What in the bloody hell is a huge bowl of soup doing in the middle of a castle courtyard!?

lol

Guancyto
2006-02-08, 11:42 AM
Let's not forget that Belkar would also get blood in the soup, what with being wounded and all.

As for the comic, I like it, as I always have been fond of understated scenes.

indianajoe
2006-02-08, 11:43 AM
Fantastic Comic Giant! :)

It always brightens up my day.

MrSokkie
2006-02-08, 11:43 AM
Am I the first to wonder why two chefs are making a big pot of soup outside?

great comic. I love the sound effects... "sploosh" :D

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-08, 11:49 AM
Where are the Miko lovers complaining she shouldn't be smiling at Belkar's apparent fall to his death?

It does seem like a bit of a smug, gloating little smile, indeed.

But if this is the best she can do... then her days are numbered. :)

Leeroy
2006-02-08, 12:00 PM
Well, she know's Belkar is evil, and since they moved from a storeroom, to the wall (or top of castle) they must have been fighting for a while. Perhaps she is just enjoing finally being done with Belkar.
Like a paladin being happy about finally being rid of a great evil
-edit: I am talking about her smiling ;)

Kish
2006-02-08, 12:04 PM
Yeah, I'm baffled that anyone would expect "Miko lovers" to want her not to smile at Belkar's apparent fall to his death. Hello? Paladins are not supposed to go out of their way to avoid killing evil, and it's very unlikely she's ever fought, or even met, anyone more vile than Belkar.

Arazvill
2006-02-08, 12:04 PM
Concerning the numerous "cooking on the castle walls" posts:

There is no fire under the cauldron, so the chefs aren't really cooking the soup.

Since many original oriental cuisine dishes are meant to be served lukewarm rather than steaming hot right off the oven, I'd guess the chefs had the cauldron moved outside to cool off. Oh, and to stir the contents occasionally, to prevent a skin from forming on the surface.

theKOT
2006-02-08, 12:15 PM
I liked it. It was a nice break from the wordy comics and the night setting made me think of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. I know it is just because his body is so small, but belkar's head seems to have sustained alot of injuries. Also, why did miko leave her other sword behind? Is there some stat boost I'm unaware of?

captheather
2006-02-08, 12:17 PM
Long time reader, first time poster (I felt like posting before but was too lazy to actually *register*)

I found these boards one time when I was needing my OOTS fix and it had been *forever* since a new comic was posted.

First, in case Rich reads this far - LOVE the comic. I was introduced to it by one of my GMs, and now I've gotten many people in my new group addicted after moving. I also got my sister hooked on the OOTS crack.

Halfling Drop Soup was classic. And the reason the big bowl of soup had to be outside is because how else can you make Halfling Drop Soup if there is no way for a halfling to drop into it?

I also like Belkar losing his balance and then Miko thinking she's had a big success. Reminds me of scenes from movies where the big baddy just will not fall.

Belkar is probably my favorite of the characters. I can't explain it, but perhaps it's because he has so much *fun* compared to how angst ridden some of the other characters can get. That's probably it since Elan's my second favorite, and he's only briefly angst ridden on occasion before he forgets that he was.

Zargon
2006-02-08, 12:18 PM
Yes Belkar is evil, but not plotting eeevil like the lich, etc. Just evil as no moral restraints combined with twisted brain (e.g. doesn't know why in a fist fight that there is a problem that he uses a knife, plus others could use knifes too).
With the right supervision, he has no problem working for the forces of good, something that Miko ignores. And then she has deliberately separated him from his group - the group that contains his evil tendencies (he does repect Roy even though he makes fun of him). So yes he is evil, but her action is not what helps good. Maybe just a bad case of stick and low wisdom and/or int? And in every way not worthy of being in a position of power in the Sapphire guard.

Tomada
2006-02-08, 12:21 PM
Am I the first to wonder why two chefs are making a big pot of soup outside?

great comic. I love the sound effects... "sploosh" :D


Cause the storeroom, wich is just besides de kitchen was on fire...

Daerthax
2006-02-08, 12:25 PM
Eh, why'd Belkar run for it? He clearly had her going in the warehouse. No spot, no listen for our beloved paladin, he could've sniped her all day.

What'd he do, botch a hide roll?

theKOT
2006-02-08, 12:25 PM
Yes Belkar is evil, but not plotting eeevil like the lich, etc. Just evil as no moral restraints combined with twisted brain (e.g. doesn't know why in a fist fight that there is a problem that he uses a knife, plus others could use knifes too).
With the right supervision, he has no problem working for the forces of good, something that Miko ignores. And then she has deliberately separated him from his group - the group that contains his evil tendencies (he does repect Roy even though he makes fun of him). So yes he is evil, but her action is not what helps good. Maybe just a bad case of stick and low wisdom and/or int? And in every way not worthy of being in a position of power in the Sapphire guard.

No, Belkar can be used for good if he has enough supervision to keep him from killing party members for exp. I'm sure the oots could find a replacement.....

Kish
2006-02-08, 12:26 PM
Yes Belkar is evil, but not plotting eeevil like the lich, etc. Just evil as no moral restraints combined with twisted brain (e.g. doesn't know why in a fist fight that there is a problem that he uses a knife, plus others could use knifes too).
With the right supervision, he has no problem working for the forces of good, something that Miko ignores.

"With the right supervision," he still kills surrendering prisoners, tries to kill a paladin's warhorse, and generally demonstrates Roy's control over him to be completely inadequate, something that you're apparently ignoring.


So yes he is evil, but her action is not what helps good.
Again...
Paladins are not and never have been in any way discouraged from killing evil creatures.

Belkar is thoroughly evil.

Even going by the most enlightened modern sensibilities, he has never shown the least sign that he could be rehabilitated. The black dragon, who demonstrated willingness to talk to Vaarsuvius, is a much more suitable candidate for all this indignation than Belkar.

Paladins' skills and abilities are focused on killing evil creatures, not rehabilitating them.

The entire idea that it could be wrong for Miko to kill Belkar is baffling. I mean, wtf? Is it possible for her to do anything that is not wrong in your eyes?

EladrinStarmist
2006-02-08, 12:38 PM
Great strip today! A nice change from the wordyness of the last couple (which were neat, btw). It's a simple comic, not one of my favourites, but still good and I was amazed to see it updated on Wednesday morning (my time, I'm Eastern).

Now, if Miko's a samuria, or a Paladin with Eastern flair, is it ok for her to watch Belkar fall to his supposed death off the battlement? I mean, shouldn't she try and save him to continue the battle honourably instead of stand there and look relieved that he fell?

Alfryd
2006-02-08, 12:45 PM
I've written several articles for wikipedia of considerable length, i'm hardly bringing it down.
Congrats, but voluntary benevolence on someone/thing's part does not entitle you to backstab afterward. Wiki's been having real problems with that lately.


This was a lovely strip. It's always good to see Miko smiling.

Perhaps she is just enjoing finally being done with Belkar.
Where would Holmes be without Moriarty?
Oh, right. Dead.

Miko would be throwing one of her LN hissy fits by now...
I think she tried that already. She's gone into 'grim and silent' mode.

We need more of Belkar and Miko going at it .. in a combat sort of way ... but would it not be odd if they ... never mind. My brain hurts now.
It's okay, the sheer bizareness of the image has rent a hole in the fabric of my imagination.


...I hate to say this comic was really lame. Six panels of running (which could have been 1 or 2) and then a bad joke?..
If you pay attention, one or two other items of note occur in the preceeding panels. The gag wasn't bad.

Giant, please disregard all naysayers and get some sleep.
Grumble, grumble, mutter mumble. *nay!*

cruciare
2006-02-08, 12:53 PM
Yes Belkar is evil, but not plotting eeevil like the lich, etc. Just evil as no moral restraints combined with twisted brain (e.g. doesn't know why in a fist fight that there is a problem that he uses a knife, plus others could use knifes too).
With the right supervision, he has no problem working for the forces of good, something that Miko ignores. And then she has deliberately separated him from his group - the group that contains his evil tendencies (he does repect Roy even though he makes fun of him). So yes he is evil, but her action is not what helps good. Maybe just a bad case of stick and low wisdom and/or int? And in every way not worthy of being in a position of power in the Sapphire guard.

I dont think Belkar is evil, but rather chaotic neutral with a violent (and vindictive) streak a mile wide.
I am new the boards so I have not read all of the posts just yet, so I could be wrong, but if he were chaotic evil, him turning on the party is just a matter of time - the fact that when the chips are down and he's still with the group suggests a loyalty that chaotic evil would not support much - unless he had no other options (and he does have those!)
Him resisting Miko with detect evil was just to do it - not for any other particualr reason I think (again, I could be wrong).

Just my 2 copper :)

Platinum_Mongoose
2006-02-08, 12:53 PM
I can just about hear a big announcer voice saying "And now back to your regularly scheduled programming."

2nd panel=coolness!

Zargon
2006-02-08, 12:56 PM
Could Oots find a better replacement? Probably quite easily (although Elan would likely be their first repacement). Do they need to? Not really. There are situations where having someone evil on your party is handy (uholy blight).

The paladin warhorse? Heck, I'd see many CN characters plotting the same thing. And half of the party was plotting to kill the paladin a few strips before then.

As for team members for XP, that was hardly serious and easily controlled.

Kill prisoners that surrender - yup. Evil as his nature. If Roy had said don't kill them, there would have been complaining, but he likely wouldn't have (unless nobody was watching). As a side note Elan killed all good, neutral & evil creatures remaining in the castle without regard or remorse.

No, Belkar is not an ideal teammate, but still a useful team member. Put him in with thousands of evil hobgolins to kill would a dream for him.

In the modern world, there would be special places for him, but in this fantasy setting, there are lots of options.

Kish
2006-02-08, 01:03 PM
In the modern world, there would be special places for him, but in this fantasy setting, there are lots of options.
Of which, "gutting him" is not an inappropriate choice for a paladin in any way; I'm surprised that anyone is surprised.




I dont think Belkar is evil, but rather chaotic neutral

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1133438285 ;start=3#3

LurkerInPlayground
2006-02-08, 01:05 PM
That halfing drop soup is now pretty disgusting. Do you really want a wounded and filthy halfling who's had his ring of jumping in a questionable place flavoring your broth?
*shudders*

theKOT
2006-02-08, 01:05 PM
Kill prisoners that surrender - yup. Evil as his nature. If Roy had said don't kill them, there would have been complaining, but he likely wouldn't have (unless nobody was watching). As a side note Elan killed all good, neutral & evil creatures remaining in the castle without regard or remorse.


Then you get to intent. Elan had no clue what he was doing, really. It's not like all those creatures were standing right there surrendering.

That halfing drop soup is now pretty disgusting. Do you really want a wounded and filthy halfling who's had his ring of jumping in a questionable place flavoring your broth?
*shudders*

On that line of thought, you do realize that everytime someone gets in the pool....

LurkerInPlayground
2006-02-08, 01:10 PM
On that line of thought, you do realize that everytime someone gets in the pool....


That's different, I don't drink the pool water if I can help it.

Anyway, for those of you picking apart the comic, Belkar's falling off is a setup for the soup joke. Nor is it intended to be the resolution of the conflict between Miko and Belkar, or reflect who the victor is. The whole point is just for Belkar to fall in, regardless of how much of a bonus he gets to Balance checks.

Adeptus
2006-02-08, 01:22 PM
My apologies for getting upset and rude regarding the Wikipedia thing earlier.

I think Wikipedia is one of the most useful and generally valuable resources on the whole web, and especially cool because it relies on volunteer effort and general good behaviour.

Apparently it upsets me more than I would have guessed to have a person mess with it (even in good humor), just to make an obscure in-joke*

Sorry for the name calling and generally hot-tempered tone of my reply.

Peace everybody,

*not that there aren't a lot of obscure jokes in WP, but they are supposed to be identifiable as such, and if possible, explained.

silvadel
2006-02-08, 01:33 PM
I didnt exactly like the continuity break here... We broke from belkar making miko flambe from the shadows directly into them running across parapets and belkar drop soup... I would have been a lot happier with it if there had been some transition there to see how belkar got exposed etc -- I would think he could have been in that storage room skulking from the shadows all day and it would be very out of character for belkar to go on the run like that without being exposed.... At least this revealed another feat of belks.

Melnor
2006-02-08, 01:34 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh Giant....
Not many things actually make me laugh out loud, but I howled at that one!!
It was so inelegant, yet so...brilliant!
Just the thing that I've come to expect from the Giant in the Playground!

Hydro
2006-02-08, 01:34 PM
Eh, why'd Belkar run for it? He clearly had her going in the warehouse. No spot, no listen for our beloved paladin, he could've sniped her all day.

What'd he do, botch a hide roll?

My guess is that he harried her for quite a while before she finally rolled a 20, found him, and charged; he started running to keep her from getting in a full attack (which would be disasterous for him), and has been doing the attack-tumble-move/tumble-move-(ranged) attack thing ever since.


I am new the boards so I have not read all of the posts just yet, so I could be wrong, but if he were chaotic evil, him turning on the party is just a matter of time

That's a bit like saying "If Hannibal really is evil, then him killing Clarice is just a matter of time."
Everyone has an alignment. Not everyone is a stereotypical poster child for their alignment.

Belkar is just too destructive and remorseless to qualify as neutral, even if he is in some respects a generally likable guy and is loyal to his friends.

tsmack5150
2006-02-08, 01:46 PM
Subtlety schmubtlety...

Belkar = Fun
Miko = Not Fun

Now bring me a big spoon.

Flak_Razorwill
2006-02-08, 01:48 PM
Woot!

The bitch is BACK!

And I like soup.

Sammael
2006-02-08, 01:49 PM
Miko's smirk says only one thing to me: there goes the paladinhood.

It's one thing to want to destroy an evil creature, and another matter altogether to grin while watching that creature fall to its death. Those are... impure thoughts.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-02-08, 01:55 PM
I'm going to dodge the inevitable morality argument and comment on the strip line by line:

Awesome
Awesome
Awesome
Random and Awesome.

Belkar's fight scenes are always good, and Miko's are even better. When they're fighting each other, well...it's one of the best fight scenes I've seen in a primarily humor/character-driven comic.

Liquid
2006-02-08, 01:58 PM
SPOILER:

Maybe Belkar doesn't want to kill Miko at all. Maybe he just wants to teach her the 'joy' of becoming evil. All turned-from-good-to-evil characters have a very painful background. My guess is that's where Belkar will come in :)


END SPOILER!

Anyway, great strip, Giant :)

theKOT
2006-02-08, 02:02 PM
Miko's smirk says only one thing to me: there goes the paladinhood.

It's one thing to want to destroy an evil creature, and another matter altogether to grin while watching that creature fall to its death. Those are... impure thoughts.
Ahh, once again, the "No more paladin for you!" party rears its head. I would suggest posting that in the Miko FRC thread. Just a thought.
However, Paladins never have any qualms about killing evil creatures. At the end of a hard fought battle you might smile too.

luilupino
2006-02-08, 02:05 PM
Miko is after Belkar to kill him ? Or to arrest him yet ?
If Miko is chasing a prisioner she shouldn't let him fall from de edge...

Coffee_Dragon
2006-02-08, 02:12 PM
Miko's smirk says only one thing to me: there goes the paladinhood.

And if she didn't smirk, she'd have to lose her paladinhood because truly Good characters take visible delight in doing good deeds, right?

If the anti-Miko league is to believed, paladins cannot logically exist.

Arakune
2006-02-08, 02:14 PM
halfling sense activate: life saving soup need pepper. ;D

after some dense strips, something more fast and soft.

sweet

Eriol
2006-02-08, 02:14 PM
I just like how Belkar is just right "on the ball" with the "Needs Pepper" comment. Culinary critic extraordinaire. Knows exactly what the soup needs.

Zargon
2006-02-08, 02:15 PM
Miko is doing like Travis (Taxi Driver) vigilante with no desire to bring him to justice, just to death. She could have alerted the guards. Once she tracked him down to one room, she could just have secured the room and systematically cleared it with other paladins.
She is LG... right?

Sylvius
2006-02-08, 02:21 PM
I'd been wondering how the Belkster was doing.

He needs to avoid a straight-up fight.

That said, things seem to going pretty well for the precognitive Belkar:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=206

Adeptus
2006-02-08, 02:21 PM
Miko is doing like Travis (Taxi Driver) vigilante with no desire to bring him to justice, just to death. She could have alerted the guards. Once she tracked him down to one room, she could just have secured the room and systematically cleared it with other paladins.
She is LG... right?

For a given value of LG, she is. Miko is a good character. Capable and highly annoying. Excellent for OotS. Smiling at a falling opponent isn't an evil act by any standards.

Edit. Drat, "going down a level" again. The "good character" above wasn't a double meaning or a pun about her alignment... I suppose it could have been, but I'm too tired at the moment.

Flak_Razorwill
2006-02-08, 02:22 PM
Miko is doing like Travis (Taxi Driver) vigilante with no desire to bring him to justice, just to death. She could have alerted the guards. Once she tracked him down to one room, she could just have secured the room and systematically cleared it with other paladins.
She is LG... right?
He challenged her to a 1 on 1, and her honor won't let her call for help. We'll see what happens.

Reaver225
2006-02-08, 02:22 PM
Bah, I can't eat egg drop soup cause I'm allergic to eggs. Now, where can I find a falling halfling...

Great strip Giant!

theKOT
2006-02-08, 02:22 PM
Miko is doing like Travis (Taxi Driver) vigilante with no desire to bring him to justice, just to death. She could have alerted the guards. Once she tracked him down to one room, she could just have secured the room and systematically cleared it with other paladins.
She is LG... right?

She promised not to accept outside help. It would be dishonest for her to break her word. To echo an above poster, the anti-miko league's definition of paladin is functionally impossible.

Kian
2006-02-08, 02:42 PM
I like todays comic. However, I sinceerely hope this is not the end of the battle. I don't expect Belkar to escape so easiily, and after their previous fight sceene, seeing that would be severely undeerwelming. So I look forwards to fridays strip where the battle rages on.

The only thing I find weird is not the chefs on the battlements (they're part of the humor) but the fact that there are no guards patroling it.

Karellen
2006-02-08, 02:50 PM
That's a bit like saying "If Hannibal really is evil, then him killing Clarice is just a matter of time."
Everyone has an alignment. Not everyone is a stereotypical poster child for their alignment.

You know, Hannibal Lecter would be insulted to the core of his being by the mere implication that his complex mind could somehow be adequately fit into a 3x3 grid of primitive, awkward moral approximations. ;)

In any case, given that The Giant remarked that anything he says on the boards isn't necessarily canon, I suppose that would mean that Belkar's alignment, too, is a matter subject to debate now. Either way, as he's actually killed a guard in the castle, there's nothing particularily wrong with Miko trying to kill Belkar from a Paladin perspective. Of course, I rather hope she doesn't succeed, because Belkar is a much more entertaining character.

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-08, 02:51 PM
Yeah, I'm baffled that anyone would expect "Miko lovers" to want her not to smile at Belkar's apparent fall to his death. Hello? Paladins are not supposed to go out of their way to avoid killing evil,

Eh? Nobody's saying that, you're mixing together two completely different things. I still would not agree that a paladin should kill everything that beeps Eeeeeevil! on their Smite Detector, but if it does happen then I certainly would not expect a paladin to derive enjoyment from destroying a sentient being, no matter how evil. That's not Goodness.

ElfLad
2006-02-08, 02:55 PM
Her smile looks more like a "relieved that it's over" smile. If her eyebrows were still in a "V" then she would look like she was smirking/gloating.

Eriol
2006-02-08, 02:56 PM
Eh? Nobody's saying that, you're mixing together two completely different things. I still would not agree that a paladin should kill everything that beeps Eeeeeevil! on their Smite Detector, but if it does happen then I certainly would not expect a paladin to derive enjoyment from destroying a sentient being, no matter how evil. That's not Goodness.
Elan's clearly "Good", and even he said to Haley "Wanna go kill some Goblins?"

In our world, you may have a point. But in that one... no. Killing those that are Evil, and possibly even taking satisfaction from such is not an Evil act.

Lurker
2006-02-08, 02:59 PM
So why are Belkar and Miko outside fighting? Because Belkar's fire has gotten out of control, and they had to leave the storeroom.

Karellen
2006-02-08, 03:04 PM
One could argue that in the OotS universe, it's only okay by default to kill "naturally" evil creatures, like Goblins, and even then, only when they're XP cannon fodder. This would seem consistent with D&D conventions and the actions of the party - after all, no member of the Order, with the exception Belkar, has ever killed a human or a demihuman, even when they are clearly Evil. (Aside of the time Roy threw his broken sword at the executioner to save his party, and even then, it's debatable whether he actually died.)

Bozidar
2006-02-08, 03:05 PM
I just noticed something:
Belkar is holding a dagger in his left hand in the 3rd panel. by the 4th panel it's gone, but Miko keeps attacking him -- while he is unarmed.

Then again, if Belkar put the dagger away, and then fell off of the ledge -- well, that's some suspicious behavior as well, and makes it look like he did it on purpose.

Eriol
2006-02-08, 03:12 PM
(Aside of the time Roy threw his broken sword at the executioner to save his party, and even then, it's debatable whether he actually died.)
That's in #164 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=164) and you can clearly see the little "X"s over the executioner's eyes, which means "dead" in the OotS universe.

And Bozidar, Belkar has NO daggers in the first panel, then has one in hand and one thrown, then one, then none again. So it's hardly consistent even BEFORE you see the daggers, so I wouldn't read too much into it whether the daggers are in-hand or not as to whether Belkar is armed or not.

Steward
2006-02-08, 03:13 PM
Great strip today! A nice change from the wordyness of the last couple (which were neat, btw). It's a simple comic, not one of my favourites, but still good and I was amazed to see it updated on Wednesday morning (my time, I'm Eastern).

Now, if Miko's a samuria, or a Paladin with Eastern flair, is it ok for her to watch Belkar fall to his supposed death off the battlement? I mean, shouldn't she try and save him to continue the battle honourably instead of stand there and look relieved that he fell?


There's no point. Belkar would stab Miko if she touched him and she probably couldn't fly down to rescue him. Or maybe she knew the soup was going to be there to break his fall and was hoping that he'd be incapacitated after hitting the floor.

Zargon
2006-02-08, 03:18 PM
Strongly doubt that Belkar would fall deliberately, however considering that Miko did have him somewhat cornered...
And for "She promised not to accept outside help. " - that was way too late to make any difference, she already told others no guards, and make no move to secure the room, just ran in with killing in her mind.
I'm wondering if Belkar wants to kill her or humiliate her and if possible have her lose her paladin status (his original plan).
I personally don't care much for Belkar (ranks just above Durkon for me), but he is an interesting (fun?) character and one that would be missed from the strip.

cruciare
2006-02-08, 03:20 PM
Wow! Lots of thoughts on the minds of the charcters there :)


Miko looks to me like shes more satisfied that Belkar fell - smirking if you will at his misfortune. You can bet when she looks over and sees him alive there will be some cussing on her part

As for paladins - its always been my understanding that LG does not mean Lawful stupid or Lawful stick up the arse (well, ok - MOST of the time it means that).

As for the soup - I will trust a halflings refined tastebuds ... It needs pepper :)

Wren
2006-02-08, 03:25 PM
And some people think balance is a lost cause, pssh.

Arkadian
2006-02-08, 03:42 PM
Bravo Rich...less words speaking volumes...classic belkar style...this episode reminds me a little of Hudson Hawk.

OotS: The Movie... Bruce Willis as Belkar...hmm...possibilities....Sandra Bernhart as Miko...eeek! scary either way.

zibeck
2006-02-08, 04:00 PM
Bam! Take it up a notch!

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-08, 04:01 PM
Elan's clearly "Good", and even he said to Haley "Wanna go kill some Goblins?"

Does he suggest that because the goblins are Evil? I don't think so.


In our world, you may have a point. But in that one... no. Killing those that are Evil, and possibly even taking satisfaction from such is not an Evil act.

Sorry, but I don't try to abstract myself from my own RL morality and try immerse into some alien and to me often unacceptable system of morality and then read the story from that point of view. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do that because almost always the jokes and the story rely on some aspects where D&D 'rulebook' morality clashes with RL morality (and plain common sense), and you can only appreciate the joke and the story as whole when looking at it from the perspective of the RL morality.

Kish
2006-02-08, 04:06 PM
Does he suggest that because the goblins are Evil? I don't think so.
Why does he, then?

If it's "because they're goblins," I'd have to say that strikes me as orders of magnitude worse than "because they're evil." And based on what the Giant's said on the subject of the idea that it's okay to kill creatures with green skin and fangs, I'm pretty sure racism does not make a good character less likely to shift alignment in the OotS universe, either.

Eriol
2006-02-08, 04:20 PM
Why does he, then?

If it's "because they're goblins," I'd have to say that strikes me as orders of magnitude worse than "because they're evil." And based on what the Giant's said on the subject of the idea that it's okay to kill creatures with green skin and fangs, I'm pretty sure racism does not make a good character less likely to shift alignment in the OotS universe, either.
Thank you Kish. That was basically my point: people don't become non-good in this world by enjoying killing those that are evil (though I wouldn't debate that long-term it may have harmful alignment effects if unchecked).

Yes it is difficult to separate this from real-world morality, but the fact that jokes are made about the differences just shows how distinct they are.

Tariskat
2006-02-08, 04:27 PM
I don't see why Miko should lose any God-given status over a grin. It was a battle, hard-fought and hard-won (she thinks) so I think she's got every right to be pleased with herself/her serving of her Lord, whatever. And besides, haven't other characters done things that go 'against' their alignment? Shouldn't Redcloak have tried to kill Xykon when he was nothing but a spirit in a box? But he displayed loyalty, and kept him safe. That wasn't exactly evil. But Recloak is still evil. Maybe I'm mixing apples and oranges again, I don't know.

Sebastian
2006-02-08, 04:27 PM
And on that day, humans discovered the delicious taste of halfling...In the soup wars that followed, the casualties were astronomical...not a single hobbit went uneaten...

Great comic as usual Rich!
If halflings were good to eat they would have turned cannibals a lot of time ago.

Karon
2006-02-08, 04:27 PM
. . .

Is my essential reaction to this comic. I dunno, nearly static scenes of combat with zero dialogue don't do much for me. My feeling is any fiction thrives on character development, the advancing plot, and the occasional shot of action/excitement and humor.

With nothing other than "Miko gets a hit," and "The fight moves outdoors for some unexplained reason," for me this comic has little of any of these. Perhaps I'm too spoiled by a video culture, but I'm looking forward to meatier Belkar/Miko conflict coming up, especially something on par with the engaging tricks and traps of the famous "sake episode."

*waves pro-Belkar flag*

Eriol
2006-02-08, 04:33 PM
If halflings were good to eat they would have turned cannibals a lot of time ago.
Excellent point.

Bitterbadger
2006-02-08, 04:34 PM
If halflings were good to eat they would have turned cannibals a lot of time ago.

Ever played in a Dark Sun campaign?

maximus
2006-02-08, 04:34 PM
Ever met a halfling from Athas? ;)



EDIT: Dagnabbit.... beat by a matter of seconds...

Sebastian
2006-02-08, 04:34 PM
Mostly because we're smiling with her. ::)

enyoing other creature's sufference/death is not a very paladinish thing to do, even if the creature is a enemy, I could even call a evil thing. But of course for someone a paladin is just a lawful good fighter with some extra powers so I guess that's OK.

Sebastian
2006-02-08, 04:37 PM
;D
Also, how'd he fail his balance check on the castle wall? A halfling? If he's got at least 5 ranks of tumble (he must), he gets a +2 synergy on that balance check, plus his dex bonus -- we're talking at least a +6 without ever putting a rank in it, which he probably has.



Maybe that last attack was a Trip or a bull rush (the names of the attacks are not meant to be taken literally)

The_Weirdo
2006-02-08, 04:40 PM
Before you folks ask, I'm anti-miko...

HOWEVER, I see nothing wrong with her smiling. Why? Because one can't control how one feels. Especially about an opponent that killed her fellow soldier, etc, etc (all of these, things that, IN HER EYES, are unjustified). Plus, she might even be aware that Belkar is too high-leveled to die from a fall.

That said, I hope Miko bites the dust for being a hypocrite and, in ALL OTHER instances, acting LN rather than LG...

Vampire_Boy
2006-02-08, 04:46 PM
And based on what the Giant's said on the subject of the idea that it's okay to kill creatures with green skin and fangs, I'm pretty sure racism does not make a good character less likely to shift alignment in the OotS universe, either.

I wasn't actually challenging that. I'm merely pointing out that regardless of what the rulebook says, a LG character who happily exterminates a kobold encampment just because they were Evil and then happily gloats about a job well done, won't really be seen as Good in my eyes. I consider the D&D 'definitions' of Good and Evil so incredibly moronic and useless that I simply cannot take them seriously. You can continue to argue about Good and Evil from your alignment-worshipping perspective, but it would be pointless because we look at it far too differently.

Flash
2006-02-08, 05:01 PM
I think there's a difference between killing a creature, smiling and saying "Ha! Your evil will spread no further!" and killing a creature, smiling and saying "Yay! Look at the pain, look at the blood!"

To hint that a paladin would lose their status because they are satisfied at doing their duty and cleaning up the world a bit is just plain crazy.

A Lawful Good person looks to the laws of society (or to a higher law) and uses/follows them to the benefit of society. Such a person would rejoice in the defeat of an evil predator, though not necessarily in his pain.

A Chaotic Evil person, on the other hand, is a law unto themselves. You can argue about whether he/she knows what they do is wrong (that is, whether they are immoral or amoral), but the end result is that they do it for themselves. They might sometimes do good things because it gets them what they want, but are just as quickly to do a bad thing if it gets them what they want.

I, for one, am firmly convinced that Miko is a LG character and is in no danger of losing her paladinhood despite Belkars best efforts (the biggest danger to her, in my opinion, should be if: Belkar should be reinstated to the party and go off with the blessing of the Saphire Guard. I think she'd find that soup too much to stomach.

Belkar has shown himself to be evil throughout the life of the strip, and chaotic at that. He may be a fine addition to the party, but he is clearly evil. (Really, I think you can take the Giant's word on it...) I'd give a relieved smile watching him fall too (especially at the irony of how he put himself in a position to fail that balance check.)

Moral: Conforming to standards of what is right and just in behavior

Immoral: Contrary to established moral principles

Amoral: Not admitting of moral distinctions and judgments

Kish
2006-02-08, 05:06 PM
alignment-worshipping
I don't think I've given you justification to be rude; you apparently disagree. Oh well.

We can say "a vile little beast who has done [mile-long list of Belkar's crimes here]" instead of "evil" wrt whether Miko should fall for smiling about him falling off the roof, if you insist. It's less convenient to have to do all that typing on a regular basis, but the import is unchanged. With the alignment system or without it, Belkar is still a vile little beast and, as such, accusing me of "alignment-worshiping" is really nothing but a pointless strawman.

I really would like an answer to my question, though. Why do you think Elan seems to consider killing goblins something to be done recreationally?

nightfire8199
2006-02-08, 05:07 PM
THAT WAS AWSOME!!! well lets just hope Belkar wins!

The Doctor
2006-02-08, 05:08 PM
Actually, today's strip took three times as long to make as the previous one, due to the art involved.

When I read this strip, what I noticed was the action, or, more specifically, how the figures moved. It seems to me that making figures move (stick or not) is one of the harder things to do. Especially panel 3 is quite good (with Miko's hair flying and the suggestion of speed in teh entire action).
Other nice effects are the soup bubbles, and the steam rising from the soup.
So it doesn't seem rushed to me.

Zargon
2006-02-08, 05:19 PM
Add pepper and boil for another hour and keep the name! Anything bad in Belkar's blood & sweat (no jokes!) would be nulified by boiling temp within that time. And imagine the shock the rest of the Oots' group would have when they hear that name!

The_Weirdo
2006-02-08, 05:28 PM
Add pepper and boil for another hour and keep the name! Anything bad in Belkar's blood & sweat (no jokes!) would be nulified by boiling temp within that time. And imagine the shock the rest of the Oots' group would have when they hear that name!


OR, as a cook that just created a plate would do, he could re-make the recipe, this time without the filthy halfling falling on the soup. Plus, we don't know that the soup did NOT have other ingredients that might be ruined by re-boiling.

Karellen
2006-02-08, 05:36 PM
Why do you think Elan seems to consider killing goblins something to be done recreationally?

Because this is D&D, and in D&D, killing goblins is something that is done recreationally - after all, that is their entire role as an evil cannon fodder enemy race fated to die on the end of an adventurer's sword. Much as I dislike the concept, in that context, any deeds commited against them cannot really be counted as signifying anything about anyone's morality. Yes, it is racist universe, but that's stereotypical D&D for you.

Randomnesh
2006-02-08, 05:42 PM
I read this and enjoyed it. Then I skimmed over it again, and was amazed at how many little details there are that I totally missed. Like the great movement (hair, cloaks, zoom lines, etc) and the sound effects. Not to mention the looks on various character's faces. One of my favorite strips for sure. ;D

And for everyone saying that they wanted to know how Miko and Belkar ended up outside, I'm thinking bonus material in a new book.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-08, 05:48 PM
OK, crawling through this thread....

1. The joke didn't get me rolling on the ground the way "when in doubt, burn something!" did, but there's no such thing as a strip where they're all side-splitters. Loved the action sequence, though.

2. What probably happened, as others have said, was that either Miko rolled high or Belkar bungled his Hide/Move Silently check. From there, he was forced to flee as she charged him. He may have a lower movement score, but Miko's in chainmail (I think) and Belkar wears light armor, so it balanced out.

3. Miko shouldn't lose her Paladinhood just for smiling at Belkar falling off the castle wall.... I mean, the guy tried to burn her alive. Even a Paladin should be able to take satisfaction from kicking the ass of the guy who tried to burn them alive. That said, I'm betting she foresaw Belkar coming out fine because:

1. He has the hitpoints to survive the fall regardless
2. It's a comic strip, and it's a well known fact of all fictional adventures that no one can permanently die by falling.

4. Halfling Drop Soup! Pass out the good silver, Ma, them's some choice eats!

5. Killing stuff just because it has green skin and fangs cannot be considered a good act. And the fact that "standard" D&D might consider it so creates a stupid fallacy that I just can't abide by. I know this probably isn't the thread to harp on it, but in no campaign of MINE was any race more likely to be evil than another. Diametrically opposed, ancient enemies perhaps, but never would one side by indesputably good with the other through-and-through evil.

Any players in a game of mine who go into a Kobold or Goblin village and start laying down some unilateral destruction unprovoked is going to get an alignment slapdown, you can be sure.

6. I hope the fight's not over yet! Go Belkar! Show that uptight airhead the power of CHAOS!

Kish
2006-02-08, 05:58 PM
Because [...]
Thanks, but "you" meant "Vampire_Boy" specifically.

Although, since we're here anyway, based on the Giant's posts and particularly (spoiler? Well, to be safe) on Roy's stance on the idea of killing orcs because it's slightly more convenient than talking to them (in OtOoPCs), I believe you're in error.

Doug_Lampert
2006-02-08, 06:04 PM
5. Killing stuff just because it has green skin and fangs cannot be considered a good act. And the fact that "standard" D&D might consider it so creates a stupid fallacy that I just can't abide by. I know this probably isn't the thread to harp on it, but in no campaign of MINE was any race more likely to be evil than another. Diametrically opposed, ancient enemies perhaps, but never would one side by indesputably good with the other through-and-through evil.

Any players in a game of mine who go into a Kobold or Goblin village and start laying down some unilateral destruction unprovoked is going to get an alignment slapdown, you can be sure.


Current standard, by the book D&D3.x says that goblins aren't inherently evil and that killing them because they are goblins is evil. They are more likely to be evil, but I see no reason why by nature or nurture it should be impossible to have one race that is more often selfish than another.

But there is nothing in the rules that allows Good characters to kill goblins that actually are evil just because they are evil. Since alignment is about attitude a character can be evil without ever taking an actual evil action. Good characters can kill evil characters to protect the innocent. Like when you know a dangerous criminal is willing and able to kill guards in attempting to escape it is reasonable for a good character to kill him.

Miko is more than justified to attack and try to kill Belkar, and if she wins she can dance on his grave without endangering her allignment.

The_Ducky_Ninja
2006-02-08, 06:13 PM
The first time I read this, I only found it mildly funny. Then I read it again, and it was slightly funnier. Then I realized that two chefs were cooking soup outside of the fortress for no apparent reason. Then I almost suffocated on laughter. Great comic.

the_belkarnator
2006-02-08, 06:14 PM
its kinda late in the thread to say this but great strip go belkar!!! :D

PhoeKun
2006-02-08, 06:23 PM
This was a great strip, mostly because I've wanted to see Belkar get beaten up for a long, long time. And pepper jokes are always funny. Always.

Now, since the "Miko should Fall because she smiled" debate is about to make my head explode, I'm going to wash my hands of this thread. Someone wake me up when the smoke clears...

Karellen
2006-02-08, 06:30 PM
You wouldn't remember where those posts were? I tried the search function but it didn't bring up anything significant. In any case, I haven't read On the Origins, so obviously I'm going based on the comic alone. Nevertheless, there are, as I'm sure you remember, numerous instances in which the party, Roy included, refer to goblins purely as XP, even Durkon "hates" Goblinoids, et cetera. OotS parodies, but nevertheless follows, the D&D convention of goblins as XP cannon fodder. Of course, these are jokes on game mechanics so it could be argued they're not fully in-character, but that just raises the question, just when do the characters act in-character anyway?

Podkayne
2006-02-08, 06:30 PM
"Needs pepper" hahahahahahahahahahaha ;D ;D ;D ;D

Awsome comic

Kish
2006-02-08, 06:47 PM
You wouldn't remember where those posts were?

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1117599935 ;start=129#129


I tried the search function but it didn't bring up anything significant. In any case, I haven't read On the Origins, so obviously I'm going based on the comic alone. Nevertheless, there are, as I'm sure you remember, numerous instances in which the party, Roy included, refer to goblins purely as XP,

Not really, no. I remember Roy refusing to endanger children; obviously goblins are people to him. And I remember him being upset about all the goblins breaking their magic items, setting traps, and running away so that the party doesn't get XP--which doesn't say anything about how he'd act toward nonhostile goblins who didn't work for Xykon.


even Durkon "hates" Goblinoids, et cetera.

In that he, being a dwarf, gets a +1 bonus to attack them. He doesn't show a significant amount of personal animosity toward them, unlike, say, undead.

Dark_Stalion
2006-02-08, 06:47 PM
It's just occured to me that the strip must have been posted arround 7am giants time. Wow, that's dediction for you. :o :D

Evik
2006-02-08, 06:56 PM
what a treat
Logged on today after working on my computer and had 3 comics to catch up on :D
Yay! back to Belkar! Run little halfling run!
There is something to be said about a strategically placed bowl of soup....lets hope it cooled off enuogh in the night air that he didnt get burned :P lol
but if hes hungry he could prolly just suck on his cloak while running lol

Argus
2006-02-08, 07:03 PM
I have five three questions:

1) Who is responsible for the strip titles that show up on the Archive page (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootsarchive)?

2) Has anyone besides me noticed that strip #276's entry in the Archive mentions "The Order of the Scribble"?

5 3) What would be a reasonable amount of time to wait and be certain before taking the above observation to the Wikipedia page?

amorita
2006-02-08, 07:15 PM
So, is the soup about to become "Halfling and Paladin drop soup"?

Wrecan
2006-02-08, 07:17 PM
Things to keep in mind:

1- Miko lives in this castle, and, being a creature of habit, is probably intimately aware of the castle's schedules, locations and routines.

2- This being a castle of paladins, the whole castle is probably run on a tight and predictable schedule.

3- It is highly likely that she knew there was a big vat of cooling soup under the ledge, because that's probably the castle routine.

The smile can easily be explained as her imagining Belkar falling into a vat of soup, which is a funny image. It does not mean she is gleeful at the prospect of Belkar dying, or that she is suddenly a blood-thirsty sadist.

Karellen
2006-02-08, 07:24 PM
Not really, no. I remember Roy refusing to endanger children; obviously goblins are people to him. And I remember him being upset about all the goblins breaking their magic items, setting traps, and running away so that the party doesn't get XP--which doesn't say anything about how he'd act toward nonhostile goblins who didn't work for Xykon.
In that he, being a dwarf, gets a +1 bonus to attack them. He doesn't show a significant amount of personal animosity toward them, unlike, say, undead.

Roy certainly isn't terribly consistent (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=11) about (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=24) it (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=25). Nor is V (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=118). Seriously. There's a mile of difference between the way Roy, and by extension, the rest of the OotS outside of Belkar, treat enemy humans (the bandits and the Linear Guild), as opposed to goblins and ogres. OotS just doesn't kill humans, even evil humans, if they can help it, while they'll go out of their way to kill goblins, and oddly enough, no one cares. in fact, I find it baffling that I hear complaints about Belkar suggesting that imprisoned, likely evil enemies should be killed, while apparently Roy killing sleeping goblins is a-OK.

In any case, the point is, this is again one of those things where, the D&D meta-gaming occasionally overtakes the roleplaying aspect, which is arguably the very thing that makes it funny. Roy didn't kill the Good goblin children, perhaps partly because they saved their lives and partly because killing children is wrong, but mainly because they weren't random monsters, but NPCs. This isn't an issue of in-character racism, so much as the fact that in stereotypical D&D, players don't bother roleplaying moral dilemmas about killing goblins and kobolds and somesuch for no real reason, while humans, by default, are a different story.

As for The Giant's post you linked to, I actually did read that. Unless I'm entirely mistaken, The Giant is wondering why exactly people complain about Miko killing Samantha in cold blood while killing goblins is okay, which is a fair question. As I see it, it's more about the morality of the readers than the morality of the OotS PCs or the strip itself.

Zargon
2006-02-08, 07:44 PM
"while apparently Roy killing sleeping goblins is a-OK."
don't forget that that this is a combat spell, lasting only seconds before they wake up and then attack again.
If this was a campaign that I was in, I would expect something similar, even by a paladin. If it was a neutral or evil party however, I could see that some would be tied up for interogation. (although could always speak with dead work ;) )

Sebastian
2006-02-08, 07:50 PM
As for The Giant's post you linked to, I actually did read that. Unless I'm entirely mistaken, The Giant is wondering why exactly people complain about Miko killing Samantha in cold blood while killing goblins is okay, which is a fair question. As I see it, it's more about the morality of the readers than the morality of the OotS PCs or the strip itself.
Well, for start, Miko is a paladin and the OotS are not (Yes, I always pretend more in term of alignment from a paladin than another lawful good character, even a cleric. If Miko killed goblins in thier sleep I'd be bothered, too. (if you don'tlike the restriction play a fighter/cleric and call yourself a paladin, In-game it would not make any difference and I'd be OK with it)

Metagaming ("they are XP fooder") enter into it, but let's consider the reverse just because you (the player) know that goblins can be good it doesn't mean the characters should know it, or even consider the idea, have they ever mean good goblin (except rebel teenagers)? OTOH they have meet good humans, halfings etc.

Beside the situations were completely different tactically speaking. with the goblins they were in the middle of a dungeon chocked full of goblins and all other kind of critters that they could not just choose to pick up and leave (without abandoning the quest at least), let the goblin alive only means they would have find them and ambush them sooner or later, or warn the other of their presence, with Samantha and his father they were in a forest that were planning to leave ASAP and the bandits were completely disbanded, if not dead, even if Sam and Dad were free by themselves the Oots would have been far, far away when that happen and they (Sam & Dad would had more urgent things to do before to follow them even if they chose to do so. (like healing their wounds)

Solara
2006-02-08, 07:52 PM
Great comic! :D

That's a nasty cut Belkar's got, but I loved the 'Needs pepper" comment. Nice to see that even after being injured, losing a battle and falling headfirst into a vat of hot soup he still keeps his cool! 8)

And was I the only one that felt heartstrings being tugged by that expression on his face right before he fell? He looked so scared and surprised, it's just amazing what the Giant can do with character's that at first glance are drawn so simply.

Karellen
2006-02-08, 07:52 PM
"while apparently Roy killing sleeping goblins is a-OK."
don't forget that that this is a combat spell, lasting only seconds before they wake up and then attack again.
If this was a campaign that I was in, I would expect something similar, even by a paladin. If it was a neutral or evil party however, I could see that some would be tied up for interogation. (although could always speak with dead work ;) )

Actually, it wasn't a spell, but rather, the goblins fell asleep of sheer boredom of V's pretentious monologue about the immense arcane might s/he posessed. In any case, wait wait what, so an... Evil or Neutral party would avoid unnecessary bloodshed by capturing their enemy, but a Good party would kill them on the spot? :o Your statement confuses me.



Well, for start, Miko is a paladin and the OotS are not (Yes, I always pretend more in term of alignment from a paladin than another lawful good character, even a cleric. If Miko killed goblins in thier sleep I'd be bothered, too.

Metagaming ("they are XP fooder") enter into it, but let's consider the reverse just because you (the player) know that goblins can be good it doesn't mean the characters should know it, or even consider the idea, have they ever mean good goblin (except rebel teenagers)? OTOH they have meet good humans, halfings etc.

Actually, personally, I think the OotS is definitely morally above Miko; after all, they don't kill humans as a matter of principle, which is arguably very noble. The only reason Miko wouldn't kill a sleeping opponent would be because it would be against her etiquette. Respect for life she has very little. As for the second point, there's no actual roleplaying about the way the OotS reacts to goblins. They kill them because they're fodder. They deal with good goblin children because they're NPC. If the characters had logical, roleplayed reasons as to why they want to kill all goblins they meet, that'd be one thing, but they don't.


Beside the situations were completely different tactically speaking. with the goblins they were in the middle of a dungeon chocked full of goblins and other kind of critters that could not just leave, let the goblin alive only means they would have find them attacking their backs sonner or later, or warning the other of their presence, with Samantha and his father they were in a forest that were planning to leave ASAP and the bandit were completely disbanded if not dead, even if Sam and Dad free by themselves the Oots would have been far, far away and they had more urgent things to do before to follow them even if they chose to do so.

Arguably, this applies also to Roy's, and earlier, to the OotS's attack on the bandit camp, as well as the OotS trying to escape the Azure City. There's no advantage to not killing humans there, while it definitely is extra effort, so really, the only reason they don't is because they think it's wrong. Which is why I think my point stands. If OotS had been up against humans in Xykon's dungeon, under no circumstances would they have coup-de-graced sleeping opponents, even if it had lead to a potential threat to them. Meanwhile, as they're up against dime-a-dozen goblin guards, they don't spend a second's thought on whether to kill them, but do so.

Leveller
2006-02-08, 07:52 PM
Awesome! I bet Belksters little solo adventure will get him enough xp to level up at the same times as the others. And I hope he kills Miko so we can get rid of her and let the oots get back to something useful! ;)

I can't belive some of you guys are rooting for Miko here. Belkar is a player character that was with the gang from the start! ???

Zargon
2006-02-08, 08:00 PM
Oh, yeah, that's right V didn't get the spell off yet! Hmm...
Why evil and neutral characters to secure one or two of them - let's just say using very convincing ways (less so for neutral) to make them talk... before executing them.

Kish
2006-02-08, 08:03 PM
Metagaming ("they are XP fooder") enter into it, but let's consider the reverse just because you (the player) know that goblins can be good it doesn't mean the characters should know it, or even consider the idea,
See, this is where we part ways very sharply. Mind, this argument doesn't really apply to OotS either; these character know goblins are "Usually Neutral Evil" according to the Monster Manual, and exactly what "Usually" means.

In serious D&D games, though--should characters know goblins can be good, or even consider the idea? Only the ones who want to claim to be good. Assuming, because every goblin you have met has been evil, that every goblin in the world is, is neither logically nor morally sound. Any interaction with goblins will demonstrate that they have the same intellectual capacities as humans; extensive interaction with humans will demonstrate that it's entirely possible to take a sample of humans from a given area and find them to be at least as evil as a similar sample of goblins; and putting together 2 and 2 to get 4 is key in determining whether the person sitting in judgment of the goblin species based on his/her personal experience really qualifies for good alignment.

S/he probably doesn't. Good people are, after all, much rarer than neutral people.


I can't belive some of you guys are rooting for Miko here. Belkar is a player character that was with the gang from the start! ???
That doesn't mean we're required to like him, y'know. For some of us, the humor he's provided has always been of the "when he falls down a manhole and dies it's hilarious" nature.

Of all the characters in the Order, Belkar should best understand that...except that it's applied to him, of course, the nasty little hypocrite. Ah well.


Actually, personally, I think the OotS is definitely morally above Miko; after all, they don't kill humans as a matter of principle, which is arguably very noble. [...] If OotS had been up against humans in Xykon's dungeon, under no circumstances would they have coup-de-graced sleeping opponents, even if it had lead to a potential threat to them. Meanwhile, as they're up against dime-a-dozen goblin guards, they don't spend a second's thought on whether to kill them, but do so.
Well, what can I say? If I agreed with you on the Order's attitude toward various sapient races, not only would I not consider them noble, I'd probably never be able to read a reference to Roy being Lawful Good again without snorting.

Tharr
2006-02-08, 08:05 PM
Sir what is that halfing doing in my soup.
Looks to me sir the back stroke.
Go run Belkar.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-08, 08:06 PM
Miko's popularity as baffling to me as it is to you, mang. Unfortunately, it probably ensures she'll stick around for a good long time. People are even talking about her replacing Belkar on the team? I won't hear such mutinous rumblings against the Belkster! =O

rosebud
2006-02-08, 08:09 PM
Ack! Way too much commentary every cartoon. (Yes, I'm now being a hypocrite. Oh, well. :P)

Anyhow, I LOVED Miko smiling! (Is that a first? She got close in 150, but this is pure grin!) And the proof that she came through the fire okay.

And Belkar's nonchalance. The line ("needs pepper") was perfect, but it occured to me that "needs sake" would have also been funny. :)

On to replies...


It seems like Belkar will escape Azure city...Nah, he should stay and become a chef. If he waits long enough, Miko will be sent on another long mission.


will Miko realise Belkar isn't kersplat?She's dense, not stupid. She'll notice.


do they throw away the soup, now that it's been Belkarized?Nah, just cast a purify food spell.


As much as I was looking forward to more with Belkar and Miko, I hate to say this comic was really lame.Visual pleasures. It was great. If you're a Mikoite, you get her smiling. If you're a Belkarite, you get his wit.


Long time reader, first time posterIt's not a curable disease, but welcome to the support group! :) :D


Is it possible for her to do anything that is not wrong in your eyes?For Belkarites, there probably is one, but I don't think you'd like it: seppuku.


I dont think Belkar is evilHe's evil. It's even answered in the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1129795973 ), with a link to a thread containing a post by The Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=display;board=comics;num=1133438285 ;start=0#3) explaining that in order to be neutral, he would have had to commit good acts to balance his evil ones. His acts are all self-serving. The sooner you accept it, the easier life becomes. Yes, he's funny, but that doesn't keep him from being evil.


Miko's smirk says only one thing to me: there goes the paladinhood.No, Belkar's just helping remove her stick just a little bit. She needs a sense of humor.


She promised not to accept outside help.No, she promised no outside healing. That's not the same thing.


Why does he, then? If it's "because they're goblins,"It's because they were surrounded by a room full of goblins (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=105) (and zombies) in the employ of an Evil Lich whom they were fighting. Add in the awkward near-kiss moment, and it was also a awkwardness-breaking statement.


This was a great strip, mostly because I've wanted to see Belkar get beaten up for a long, long time.What constitutes "long, long"? He was near-death 28 strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=251), still injured 18 strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=261), and incapacitated on many (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200) other (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=165) occasions (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=146).


Who is responsible for the strip titles that show up on the Archive page (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootsarchive)?Where is that link referenced? First time I've seen it. (And quite useful.)


This has to end in blood.Freelance Henchman enters cartoon.

Freelance Henchman: What am I doing here? Why have I been transformed into a hafling?

Splurtch.

Freelance Henchman:Aaaaaaaarghhh! Why are you stabbing my soft defenseless flesh with your knives?

Blood spurts everywhere.

Okay, you have your wish.

Caledonian
2006-02-08, 08:13 PM
I have five three questions:

1) Who is responsible for the strip titles that show up on the Archive page (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootsarchive)? Almost certainly the Giant himself.


2) Has anyone besides me noticed that strip #276's entry in the Archive mentions "The Order of the Scribble"? Well, I hadn't. I can't speak for others.


5 3) What would be a reasonable amount of time to wait and be certain before taking the above observation to the Wikipedia page? I think this would be a good time to do so.

Hyrael
2006-02-08, 08:19 PM
I don't see why Miko should lose any God-given status over a grin. It was a battle, hard-fought and hard-won (she thinks) so I think she's got every right to be pleased with herself/her serving of her Lord, whatever. And besides, haven't other characters done things that go 'against' their alignment? Shouldn't Redcloak have tried to kill Xykon when he was nothing but a spirit in a box? But he displayed loyalty, and kept him safe. That wasn't exactly evil. But Recloak is still evil. Maybe I'm mixing apples and oranges again, I don't know.

Redcloak is a very loyal neutral, in my opinion. He' not very evil, nore is he by any means good. he cares about his goblin people, for example. But, he's probably not lawful, as thats what he hates about hobgoblins. If he's evil, he the dull, grey kind of evil, that does bad things because that's its JOB.

the reason Miko may be stretching her alignment is: motivation. this might not just be about bringing a prisoner in. the Belkar vs Miko fight might now be personal on both sides. theres adifference between stabbing someone because its your duty, and stabbing someone because you enjoy their death, and it being your duty is just an excuse. miko isnt at that stage yet, of course, but all the same...

I want to see someone die. Not for very long, of course.

Tharr
2006-02-08, 08:19 PM
Miko stinks was hoping she was burned to death.

Devoured_Dude
2006-02-08, 08:29 PM
Halfling Drop Soup

Serves 300+

120 Gallons poultry broth (Chicken, Duck, Griffin, Quail or Roc is acceptable. WARNING, do not use Cockatrice broth unless you want your diners to get stoned!)
8 Pounds cornstarch
1 1/4 Gallon soy sauce
1 Bushel green onion, chopped fine
6 dozen eggs, lightly beaten
1 adult halfling, severely beaten, bleeding and sweaty
Black pepper to taste

In a huge cauldron, bring the broth to a simmer. In a small cauldron, pour several gallons of the hot broth onto the cornstarch and make a slurry. When the starch is completely dissolved, then add it back in the huge cauldron with the soy sauce and green onion. Using a rowboat oar or trident, gently stir in the egg until it turns opaque.

Allow soup to cool below a convenient parapet, and drop the halfling from a height of at least 20 feet, then vigorously agitate. Note: Lawful Good worshippers of Yondalla are quite spicy enough on their own, but you may have to add pepper if the halfling you've found is a less savory character.

redmind0
2006-02-08, 08:36 PM
BWAHAHAHAHA

heehee, 'needs pepper' ;D

Do I smell an expaladin?

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-08, 08:39 PM
Seriously, I don't get why so many people like Miko. Maybe it's just because I've had to play campaigns with "Paladins" like that, who want to police the entire party and think that because they can use Smite Evil they're the ultimate authority on what's right and wrong.

I can understand why some of the audience loves to hate Belkar, but in all seriousness, I think I'd rather have him in my party than Miko. Smite-first-ask-questions-later Paladins can be just as hazardous to a campaign as evil characters. At least Belkar is loyal to his party comrades, and he leaves important NPCs alone. He might be Chaotic Evil in intent, but in action he's really not much worse than a particularly vicious neutral.

This is just my own logical extension, and I admit that this is pretty much baseless.... but I imagine Belkar is also much more laid back and fun as a player than Miko. Up until recently, I thought Miko was an NPC, but it seems she's going to stick around.... so now she seems more to me like an NPC being played by, like, the DM's girlfriend who's new to D&D and learning the ropes by running one of the campaign's villains.... who she might join the party with, later. I don't know, that's probably a lot more "side-story" than anyone thought of. (Actually, you know what would be really cool is if someone did an OotS script from the perspective of the players with their DM, like Knights of the Dinner Table sorta.)

ragingmaro
2006-02-08, 08:42 PM
I appear to be in the minority about this comic but I'm slightly dissapointed. I wanted to see what would play out in the storage room but it looks like they ended up on the rooftops for some reason.... Funny but I was hoping for it to stay in the storage room and for it to move a little more slowly.

Kish
2006-02-08, 08:54 PM
At least Belkar is loyal to his party comrades,

except when he wants XP,


and he leaves important NPCs alone
, except when he's mad over being grappled.


He might be Chaotic Evil in intent, but in action he's really not much worse than a particularly vicious neutral.

I suppose it was way too much to hope for that people would actually stop arguing for Belkar not really being thoroughly evil just because the Giant laughed at the idea.

theKOT
2006-02-08, 08:59 PM
Seriously, I don't get why so many people like Miko. Maybe it's just because I've had to play campaigns with "Paladins" like that, who want to police the entire party and think that because they can use Smite Evil they're the ultimate authority on what's right and wrong.

I can understand why some of the audience loves to hate Belkar, but in all seriousness, I think I'd rather have him in my party than Miko. Smite-first-ask-questions-later Paladins can be just as hazardous to a campaign as evil characters. At least Belkar is loyal to his party comrades, and he leaves important NPCs alone. He might be Chaotic Evil in intent, but in action he's really not much worse than a particularly vicious neutral.

To begin, I like Miko because I enjoy her character and think that there is room for growth. I don't even dislike Belkar, but I like Miko better. Partially because I know that I act like that sometimes, and partially because I think she is fully justified in wanting to kill Belkar for his various atrocities. Would a vicious nuetral paint a blood mural? The only reason Belkar shows any restraint is for fear of the reprecussions. Specifically, him getting killed for XP by the rest of the Order. But when you come down to it, it's just a comic so it is all personal preference. Despite the reasons listed above it all simmers down to the fact that I just like Miko better. Man, that was rambling and disjointed......

On a side note, I noticed in a link provided by a previous poster that the Giant used a :) smiley alongside his usual :P . I haven't seen that recently, unless you count that post from the future. Has the Giant become a bit bitter after so many people raining unbased criticisms down upon him and his business acumen? I hope not.....

saraswati
2006-02-08, 09:08 PM
Halfling Drop Soup



this recipe cracked me up, Devoured Dude. Thanks for amusing me.

I'm not at all disappointed in today's comic, it was very fun. But I am hoping that this isn't the end of the Miko v. Belkar smack-down. I really enjoyed seeing them go at it in the wherehouse, and the Giant's combat tactics were very cool and inventive. If we don't see any more of the battle in the current OOTS strip, maybe enough wheedling and begging can convince the Giant to show an expanded version in the next book :)

Nightfall
2006-02-08, 09:08 PM
Belkar has hair?? ?? How did I miss that?? ??

I always thought he was bald! I never noticed the bit of brown fuzz on top.

Tharr
2006-02-08, 09:14 PM
He might have body hair.

theKOT
2006-02-08, 09:16 PM
I'm not at all disappointed in today's comic, it was very fun. But I am hoping that this isn't the end of the Miko v. Belkar smack-down. I really enjoyed seeing them go at it in the wherehouse, and the Giant's combat tactics were very cool and inventive. If we don't see any more of the battle in the current OOTS strip, maybe enough wheedling and begging can convince the Giant to show an expanded version in the next book :)

Wherehouse? From Somewhere or Nowhere? (It's warehouse ;) )

Flak_Razorwill
2006-02-08, 09:21 PM
Ha ha. Savory Character...

In the comic, am I to understand Miko's knife dodge was a sudden stop, with a simultaneous back kick while hopping about 2 feet to the left, while the 6 Million Dollar Man "dit-dit-dit-dit-dit-dit" sound played,

or...

The precursor to a dodging cartwheel move, in bullet time, with Matrix sound effects?

I like both, but the 1st one seems more likely, as no completed roll was seen.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-08, 09:26 PM
except when he wants XP,

I'd say the fact that he went in to save Elan when Roy was saying they didn't have to makes up for that. He's said he likes Elan, and that was serious. Him chasing Elan around was just a throwaway joke that you're making way too much out of.


I suppose it was way too much to hope for that people would actually stop arguing for Belkar not really being thoroughly evil just because the Giant laughed at the idea.

Oh no, I agree that Belkar is Chaotic Evil. But he's CE in such a way that it doesn't disrupt the campaign. Miko and characters like her are often very hazardous to a harmonious party. I've been in games where the Paladin just wouldn't let something go, and the party ended up splitting apart because of their prudishness. It's incredibly aggravating. Belkar might be a hack 'n slasher, but he's at least not driving a wedge into the party the way Miko did when she was with them. Remember how Durkon, and to a lesser extent, Roy, were messing up the party dynamics because they felt obligated to side with Miko due to their LG Alignments? Belkar's never created those kinds of problems. That's why I'd rather have him in my group whether I was a player or a DM.

Tharr
2006-02-08, 09:27 PM
I wonder if they Linear Gang get paid for all this down times also with Xykon.

theKOT
2006-02-08, 09:30 PM
Oh no, I agree that Belkar is Chaotic Evil. But he's CE in such a way that it doesn't disrupt the campaign. Miko and characters like her are often very hazardous to a harmonious party. I've been in games where the Paladin just wouldn't let something go, and the party ended up splitting apart because of their prudishness. It's incredibly aggravating. Belkar might be a hack 'n slasher, but he's at least not driving a wedge into the party the way Miko did when she was with them. Remember how Durkon, and to a lesser extent, Roy, were messing up the party dynamics because they felt obligated to side with Miko due to their LG Alignments? Belkar's never created those kinds of problems. That's why I'd rather have him in my group whether I was a player or a DM.



This is mostly opinion and personal experience, not really valid arguments, even if it is the deciding factor for you. See my post above.
Also, Belkar's actions could create a lot of problems for the party were the court to find out about his killing, his blood mural and several other of his actions.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-08, 09:40 PM
To begin, I like Miko because I enjoy her character and think that there is room for growth. I don't even dislike Belkar, but I like Miko better. Partially because I know that I act like that sometimes, and partially because I think she is fully justified in wanting to kill Belkar for his various atrocities. Would a vicious nuetral paint a blood mural? The only reason Belkar shows any restraint is for fear of the reprecussions. Specifically, him getting killed for XP by the rest of the Order. But when you come down to it, it's just a comic so it is all personal preference. Despite the reasons listed above it all simmers down to the fact that I just like Miko better. Man, that was rambling and disjointed......

In answer to your question, I've played chaotic good characters who strung their enemies' entrails across their weapons to scare the crap out of any other potential foes. Belkar made that mural to lure Miko to where he wanted to go. It's about pragmatism of purpose, not being vicious for its own sake.

And you're right, this is a comic so our favorite character is naturally going to be based on our own subjective opinions. I like Belkar, I don't like Miko, but that doesn't mean it's the only opinion that can be valid.

And I acknowledge that, for all intents and purposes, Miko is the "goodguy" in this battle. That doesn't make me like her more or Belkar less, because it's fiction and I judge by badass points not goody-goody points. I have a long history of rooting for the villain; I always wanted to see Skeletor wipe that damn smirk off He-Man's face, or Megatron finally teach that goody-goody Optimus. It's fiction, I don't take it seriously, and just because a character is a "heartless murdering bastard" doesn't mean I can't appreciate their wit, finesse, or kick-ass gear....

Tharr
2006-02-08, 09:46 PM
I wonder exactly was in the soup.

theKOT
2006-02-08, 09:50 PM
And I acknowledge that, for all intents and purposes, Miko is the "goodguy" in this battle. That doesn't make me like her more or Belkar less, because it's fiction and I judge by badass points not goody-goody points. I have a long history of rooting for the villain; I always wanted to see Skeletor wipe that damn smirk off He-Man's face, or Megatron finally teach that goody-goody Optimus. It's fiction, I don't take it seriously, and just because a character is a "heartless murdering bastard" doesn't mean I can't appreciate their wit, finesse, or kick-ass gear....

Exactly. Rooting for someone who is evil in a comic/movie/whatever doesn't make you evil by association. It is all about whose character you enjoy better. Not who is a better person or who you would rather be around. Wait.... our discussion just boiled down to a "agree to disagree" situation. Awwww, I like debating, but there is nothing left but recaps...... Until the next comic! Yay! Go Miko!

xyzchyx
2006-02-08, 09:56 PM
Uhmmm... what exactly happened to Miko's other weapon?

theKOT
2006-02-08, 09:59 PM
Well, She dropped it to perform smite evil way back in #270, but as someone pointed out previously, weapons, much like familiars, sometimes disappear and reappear at random.

Tharr
2006-02-08, 10:02 PM
Great point maybe it got burnt up.

Unrepentant
2006-02-08, 10:24 PM
Great comics of late Giant. I like how you're not afraid to switch styles on demand...crayon-work, dialogue light, etc. Thanks for the great chortles that help us get through the day.

rashambo
2006-02-08, 10:31 PM
Actually, today's strip took three times as long to make as the previous one, due to the art involved. It is exactly as I intended it, an action break from the long-winded speeches of the past week. Believe it or not, some people enjoy comics with less than 1000 words sometimes.

I think if my record with posting comics extremely late should have proven anything, it's that I don't EVER rush them. :P


Giant, I liked it. I only wish there was more of it. But you take your time keep the quality high, as I personally feel it has always been. You know he loves it or else he wouldn't be here. At this point, I'll have to go into rehab when this strip ends.

Argus
2006-02-08, 10:36 PM
Where is that link referenced? First time I've seen it.

At the bottom of any comics page, between "Extras" and "Next>>".



I think this would be a good time to do so.

Someone named Philip seems to have agreed with you.

Ryltar_Swordsong
2006-02-08, 10:40 PM
My opinion: Miko needs to die. Hopefully, it will be Belkar that finishes her off. Also, Miko should lose her paladinhood. Not because of her smirk, but because I haven't seen her do anything "good" yet. She's acted "lawful", but never "good". Anyway, that's my opinion you can argue all you want, you won't change my mind.

theKOT
2006-02-08, 10:43 PM
My opinion: Miko needs to die. Hopefully, it will be Belkar that finishes her off. Also, Miko should lose her paladinhood. Not because of her smirk, but because I haven't seen her do anything "good" yet. She's acted "lawful", but never "good". Anyway, that's my opinion you can argue all you want, you won't change my mind.

Ooook... Maybe you could tone down the agressiveness a little? You stated why, in your opinion, miko needs to lose her paladinhood, but not why she needs to die. Care to tell me?

Solara
2006-02-08, 10:44 PM
Okay, just finished reading all 14 pages...and am I the only one who is getting a little tired of Every. Single. Friggin. Comic. spawning a huge debate on morality?

Sigh. :-/

Steward
2006-02-08, 10:58 PM
Okay, just finished reading all 14 pages...and am I the only one who is getting a little tired of Every. Single. Friggin. Comic. spawning a huge debate on morality?

Sigh. :-/


I blame Elan. He invested in a new bardic spell -- Inflate Pompous Ego.

Ryltar_Swordsong
2006-02-08, 10:58 PM
Ooook... Maybe you could tone down the agressiveness a little? You stated why, in your opinion, miko needs to lose her paladinhood, but not why she needs to die. Care to tell me?
Sorry, didn't mean it to be agressive.

As for why I want her dead, I just really hate "stick-up-their-ass" Paladins. A Paladin, properly played, is one of the best classes IMO. Paladins that lord their status over others, or think that being a paladin means they are superior to others, betray the spirit of the class IMO. And that just bugs me on a personal level.

Fillbert
2006-02-08, 11:05 PM
Allignments are guidelines. No charicter is 100% alligned 100% of the time.
Do you think Miko going after Belkar is 100% alturistic or is there some pride motivating her to persue? Pride would be in oppostion to her lawfull goodness and thus nullify her Paladin class, so she wouldn't be able to heal herself and therefore playing into Belkar's hand....
See why allignments can't ever be 100%, any zany logic could diffuse them... so why bother arguing over what allignment any charicter is and what they would do...
just have fun with it and enjoy.....

Hyrael
2006-02-08, 11:16 PM
Ok, I like Miko as a character with possibilities. i hate her for being a stick-up-the-arse palladin.

I dont think she should loose her powers for ever, but I do think she should get a celestial warning statement, something to tell her that she is on the wrong track. and I think that that should be...

Belkar's death. a temporary one, of course. If belkar can rig things up so that she kills him in a way that would turn her into a warrior with odd class skills, that would so open up possibilities. I can see him saying, upon being ressurected:"YES, it Worked! that was sooooo worth the negative level. In your face, your'e a monk/warrior now!"

theKOT
2006-02-08, 11:24 PM
Allignments are guidelines. No charicter is 100% alligned 100% of the time.
Do you think Miko going after Belkar is 100% alturistic or is there some pride motivating her to persue? Pride would be in oppostion to her lawfull goodness and thus nullify her Paladin class, so she wouldn't be able to heal herself and therefore playing into Belkar's hand....
See why allignments can't ever be 100%, any zany logic could diffuse them... so why bother arguing over what allignment any charicter is and what they would do...
just have fun with it and enjoy.....

Arguing and debating are two different things. I debate mostly to hold off the inevitable Jonesing, and maybe notice a few new things about the strip.




I blame Elan. He invested in a new bardic spell -- Inflate Pompous Ego.
Are you saying that you must be pompous to debate?

omikapsi
2006-02-08, 11:35 PM
Somebody commented on Miko only having one sword drawn while chasing Belker. I'd assume that this is because she's not going to get a full attack on him, and is better off using the one weapon two handed for strength x1.5 damage, since she can quickdraw her other sword if she ever engages him.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-08, 11:55 PM
Exactly. Rooting for someone who is evil in a comic/movie/whatever doesn't make you evil by association. It is all about whose character you enjoy better. Not who is a better person or who you would rather be around. Wait.... our discussion just boiled down to a "agree to disagree" situation. Awwww, I like debating, but there is nothing left but recaps...... Until the next comic! Yay! Go Miko!


Allow me to recoach what I said earlier---I acknowledge Miko is the "good guy," but she is still, in terms of the story, the antagonist. It is quite possible to have an evil protagonist (and I think it's actually getting more common in a lot of comics, movies and cartoons.) If you want a good example of a well-roleplayed, chaotic evil "hero," I'd point at Mugen from Samurai Champloo. I don't know how many of you are anime fans, but if you've watched even a few episodes of that series you'll know what I'm talking about.

cruciare
2006-02-09, 12:07 AM
Of which, "gutting him" is not an inappropriate choice for a paladin in any way; I'm surprised that anyone is surprised.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1133438285 ;start=3#3

LOL - Thanks Kish for the Link :) Well I guess that answers that :P

cruciare
2006-02-09, 12:11 AM
Okay, just finished reading all 14 pages...and am I the only one who is getting a little tired of Every. Single. Friggin. Comic. spawning a huge debate on morality?

Sigh. :-/

I question the morality of questioning our morality!

;)

Methuselah_Amakiir
2006-02-09, 12:17 AM
Miko might have had one sword drawn so she could do the nifty cartwheel to dodge the throwing knife. Who knows, with her rolls, she could've done it with two swords in each hand...

mec
2006-02-09, 12:33 AM
What a great comic!

After hundreds of posts discussing whether Miko is going to Fall ... instead it's Belkar who falls.

I liked the novel expressions, too. I haven't seen Belkar look scared and vulnerable since Origin of the PCs. And I like that new expression Miko has where the corners of her mouth are higher than the middle.

theKOT
2006-02-09, 12:37 AM
Allow me to recoach what I said earlier---I acknowledge Miko is the "good guy," but she is still, in terms of the story, the antagonist. It is quite possible to have an evil protagonist (and I think it's actually getting more common in a lot of comics, movies and cartoons.) If you want a good example of a well-roleplayed, chaotic evil "hero," I'd point at Mugen from Samurai Champloo. I don't know how many of you are anime fans, but if you've watched even a few episodes of that series you'll know what I'm talking about.
Um. Yeah.... So? That doesn't seem to contradict what I said. I acknowledge that what you just said is legit. I simply said that we had gotten to a point where there were no more points to be brought up on this particular topic.

humanpylon
2006-02-09, 12:47 AM
Okay, just finished reading all 14 pages...and am I the only one who is getting a little tired of Every. Single. Friggin. Comic. spawning a huge debate on morality?

Sigh. :-/
no. no you're not. *sigh*

Nekkira
2006-02-09, 12:49 AM
This may be answered in one of the previous 14 pages, but I got tired of reading after the flames, and glad I didn't now that I see we got back on the bad Paladin thread.....
In frame 2, did she trip or is she tumbling out of the way of the knife? Does she have the Dodge feat or Mobility?

Godhand
2006-02-09, 12:54 AM
Whoof, Belkar probably took a HP hit on that last attack Miko got in, charge + 2 handed for 1.5 str and 1d10 base, ouch. A few more hits like that and he'll be one dead puppy.

And for the whole debate, I dont care who wins, as long as there are laughs on the way down.

Excellent comic as always.

humanpylon
2006-02-09, 01:15 AM
This is totally off the morality topic and has to do with halflings and soup. Way back in the day there was a series of choose your own adventure gamebooks called fighting fantasy (I'm sure a lot of the old time gamers are familiar with them). One of the books, called Creature of Havoc, had you playing a monster who had lost its memory. The creature went around a dungeon and fought adventurers as well as monsters. Its favorite food...hobbits! In fact at one point in the adventure you actually get to eat hobbit soup!

Amalthea
2006-02-09, 02:15 AM
Do I smell an expaladin?
Huh? Why would you?
"Needs pepper" was a funny line.

Count-Tyr
2006-02-09, 02:37 AM
Awesome comic there...Belkars expression on the final panel is priceless

rosebud
2006-02-09, 04:20 AM
In frame 2, did she trip or is she tumbling out of the way of the knife?Tumble. She has very (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200) good (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=215) evasion. (Or whatever you call it. =)


I can't belive some of you guys are rooting for Miko here.When there's rabid Belkarites, I get annoyed and root for Miko. When there's raving Mikophiles, I get annoyed and root for Belkar. Overall, I'm neutral and would be perfectly happy if they spun off to a separate game where they perpetually hunted each other, like Spy v. Spy. That would leave room in the party for someone fun, like Mr. Scruffy.

PhoeKun
2006-02-09, 04:41 AM
Overall, I'm neutral and would be perfectly happy if they spun off to a separate game where they perpetually hunted each other, like Spy v. Spy. That would leave room in the party for someone fun, like Mr. Scruffy.


Despite my better judgment, I checked this thread again. I'm glad I did. I now have this image of a Miko v. Belkar comic where Miko pushes a giant safe onto Belkar, only he has a spring in his hat/Yik Yik skull, which bounces the thing back on top of her. Then while Belkar is laughing, the safe falls back on top of him. This is funny in ways that don't exist yet.

In all seriousness, I am tired of the Miko-Belkar debates, and I've only been active long enough to see one. I still want to see Belkar get hurt badly enough that he legitimately fears for his life. I still like Miko more than I probably should. But I'll be satisfied with whatever the outcome is, and I just don't see the point in raving about either character's justifications. They are who they are.

Thanks, Rosebud, for the eye opener and the mental image.

Marller
2006-02-09, 05:08 AM
Okay, just finished reading all 14 pages...and am I the only one who is getting a little tired of Every. Single. Friggin. Comic. spawning a huge debate on morality?
Sigh. :-/

no. no you're not. *sigh*
No, you are not alone.

Group hug. *hug*

Delgarde
2006-02-09, 06:20 AM
I wanted to see what would play out in the storage room but it looks like they ended up on the rooftops for some reason.... Funny but I was hoping for it to stay in the storage room and for it to move a little more slowly.

I'd guess they had to leave there after Belkar set fire to it. All those boxes in #270 look pretty flammable...

Evik
2006-02-09, 06:42 AM
could be a SPOILER i dont know but this is what i would like to see ;D

*ZAP!*

i know just wishfull thinking but i could totally see that happening

Baron Von Mod: A spoiler it was. A spoiler it is no more

Delgarde
2006-02-09, 06:45 AM
Allignments are guidelines. No charicter is 100% alligned 100% of the time.

Maybe, but a paladin is supposed to exemplify their alignment, to act as a model for others. And so more than any other class, a paladin should be aware of how their behaviour measures up, else how can they show others the way?

Now that's not to say that a paladin can't be flexible about things, as some seem to think. But if they're going to act against the ideals they represent, it should be a deliberate and considered act rather than something done without thought. They need to justify such things more than other classes do.


Do you think Miko going after Belkar is 100% alturistic or is there some pride motivating her to persue? Pride would be in oppostion to her lawfull goodness and thus nullify her Paladin class, so she wouldn't be able to heal herself and therefore playing into Belkar's hand....

Oh, I'd say at least 90% pride. Not 100%, since she *is* pursuing a dangerous fugitive, but the way she's made it a one-on-one fight to the death makes it clear this is personal satisfaction first, business a distant second.

Pride isn't really in opposition to the paladin's code though - it's not evil in itself. Miko's problem is that insults to her pride have made her angry, and she's running mostly on anger at the moment. Not a good state for a paladin to be in, lest she do something seriously in breach of the code - e.g killing bystanders that impede her getting to Belkar, or something like that.

Freelance Henchman
2006-02-09, 06:54 AM
Okay, just finished reading all 14 pages...and am I the only one who is getting a little tired of Every. Single. Friggin. Comic. spawning a huge debate on morality?

Sigh. :-/

I blame the (IMHO) idiotic D&D alignment system. Using "chaotic", "neutral", "good", "evil" etc. as an easily quantifiable ordering scheme is just too simplistic*. This only works if you only ever play together with people who have *exactly* the same cultural background, and will completely agree on what constitutes good/evil etc. With a comic as widely read as OOTS now, you are bound to get friction when the various "scales" clash.

* some of the games (Neverwinter Nights for one) even had a numbered scale 0-100 for evil to good and chaotic to lawful. Yes, it's true: God is an accountant.
+ EDIT: And I don't mean that I would want something even more complicated. I think it's an unnecessary part of the D&D system that adds little and causes much confusion.
E.g. what consitutes a "good" paladin is essentially up to his god, who can pretty much declare him fallen because he smiled a little too broadly after he cleft some psychopathic little halfling in two, or not bat an eyelash when he makes hamburgers out of little orc babies. It may not seem fair to anyone else, but what matters is the *personal*, highly subjective opinion of the god (unfortunately), because he has might on his side.

Trying to find some sort of absolute scale of good and bad is something that a lot of clever and not-so-clever people have been trying to do since the dawn of humanity, and the search is not over by a long shot (will never be) I think. Just look how much discussion you get and how high feelings churn when the subject at hand are two fictional characters in a humorous comic strip :-)

Alfryd
2006-02-09, 07:56 AM
With the right supervision, [Belkar] has no problem working for the forces of good, something that Miko ignores.
Um... yes, but, he has to actively consent to that supervision, and there's no guarantee that will be kept up in future.

No, Belkar is not an ideal teammate, but still a useful team member.
Oh, he's generally competent, certainly. But he's also been directly
responsible for some significant cockups.

...a LG character who happily exterminates a kobold encampment just because they were Evil and then happily gloats about a job well done, won't really be seen as Good in my eyes.
I think you're stretching Miko's reaction considerably here. She didn't look especially happy during the battle, didn't 'grin', and isn't gloating now.
WHAT AM I DOING? This has to be the most spectacularly feeble argument against Miko's alignment I have yet seen. It's not even a nitpick.

Ahh, once again, the "No more paladin for you!" party rears its head. I would suggest posting that in the Miko FRC thread. Just a thought.
I'll consider it. However, I would prefer that suggestions to this effect be made IN the Miko FRC thread, as my memory is apt to lapse on occasion.

If the anti-Miko league is to believed, paladins cannot logically exist.
I'm reminded of the strip arc when Calvin uses his duplicator to create a morally perfect clone of himself. It disappears when it conceives an evil thought.

Once she tracked him down to one room, she could just have secured the room and systematically cleared it with other paladins.
Theoretically, her honour code requires a solo showdown, but I agree that this is probably taking needless risks. Then again, I'm CG with ruthless tendencies.

You know, Hannibal Lecter would be insulted to the core of his being by the mere implication that his complex mind could somehow be adequately fit into a 3x3 grid of primitive, awkward moral approximations.
Hannibal Lecter is insulted to the core of his being by chewing gum.

Since alignment is about attitude a character can be evil without ever taking an actual evil action.
Calvin: "Do you think our actions determine our morality, or what's in our hearts?"
Hobbes: "I think our actions show what's in our hearts."
And sooner or later, they always do.

(Sam & Dad would had more urgent things to do before to follow them even if they chose to do so. (like healing their wounds).
Sam & Pa were dangerous, and should have been either killed or captured. Heck, selling them into slavery might have been less dangerous.

...I think the OotS is definitely morally above Miko; after all, they don't kill humans as a matter of principle, which is arguably very noble.
You're confusing me now. First, you complain about the OotS' preferential treatment of humans, then you berate Miko for lacking it?

The only reason Miko wouldn't kill a sleeping opponent would be because it would be against her etiquette.
See the Robotic Good section of the Miko FRC.

There's no advantage to not killing humans there...
Except that these human are very probably not evil, whereas Goblins in Xykon's employ very probably are. Roy had no particular aversion to mowing down human rogues either.

People are even talking about her replacing Belkar on the team?
I think it is likely Belkar will have to take some form of hiatus in the near future. I don't think he's going away for good, though. He does have occasional redeeming moments, after all.

[Reading the comic's] not a curable disease, but welcome to the support group!
*runs off sobbing*

Redcloak is a very loyal neutral, in my opinion...
I think I'd say that was intially LN or TN and has gradually gravitated toward LE.

Smite-first-ask-questions-later Paladins can be just as hazardous to a campaign as evil characters.
No. 5 in the Miko FRC.

I suppose it was way too much to hope for that people would actually stop arguing for Belkar not really being thoroughly evil just because the Giant laughed at the idea.
I saw a thoroughly hilarious post to this effect on the threads beforehand. Where was it...
Ah, yes courtesy of Corvis:

My Dearest Giant,

You, sir, are a liar and a cad. That you would insinuate that Belkar-- my favorite character, for he is just like me if I weren't so ineffectual and terrified of violence-- evil is unforgivable, and clearly motivated by your jealousy of my superior reasoning abilities. You may say that as the sole creator of Belkar and the man who determines his every word, thought and action, you somehow determine his every word, thought, and action.

To this I respond: Shut up.

As I and my colleagues have proven time and time again, Belkar is Chaotic Neutral at worst. I am personally of the belief that he is merely a misunderstood chaotic good. As you have clearly ignored my past arguments (possibly because I wrote them in my personal journal while sobbing quietly to myself), I will repeat them here:

1. Belkar is cool.
2. All the coolest characters are Chaotic Neutral, because that's like totally cool.
3. lol

Further, Belkar has not once (ONCE) snorted stolen cocaine off the exposed spine of a baby whose mother he just sacrificed to the Devil (who is also CN.) Such actions might, might prove that Belkar has some mild evil tendencies, providing that the baby itself was good-aligned (though not Lawful Good, as all Lawful Good characters are clearly evil.)

Hopefully my arguments shall help you to see reason. I'll be happy to clarify if anything went over your head.

Best of good wishes,
Corvis

P.S. hello
P.P.S. hello!

(I would like to reiterate this absolutely split my sides with laughter.)

[Miko is non-Good.] Anyway, that's my opinion you can argue all you want, you won't change my mind.
Nonetheless, I feel obliged to point you toward No. 4 in the Miko FRC.

Pride would be in oppostion to her lawfull goodness and thus nullify her Paladin class, so she wouldn't be able to heal herself and therefore playing into Belkar's hand...
Only an evil act, a gross violation of the paladin code or a complete alignment shift will dismiss paladin status. A display of pride is none of the above.

Its favorite food...hobbits! In fact at one point in the adventure you actually get to eat hobbit soup!
I loved the Fighting Fantasy series. Simple rules, defined outcomes, no railroading.

Alfryd
2006-02-09, 08:06 AM
I blame the (IMHO) idiotic D&D alignment system. Using "chaotic", "neutral", "good", "evil" etc. as an easily quantifiable ordering scheme is just too simplistic*.
I don't mind alignment axes per se, but they certainly shouldn't be treated as if they were primal aspects of the cosmos that a wizard can tap into as easily as lighting a match. Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic by nature makes no sense, since the whole question of morality/ethics revolves around conscious consent. The whole Law/Chaos aspect is particularly troublesome to quantify or rigorously analyse and most definitely should not be treated like some kind of composite additive for damage reduction, etc. I'd limit spells based on good/evil strictly to divine magic, rigorously define the conditions of effect, and severe curtail their applications.
Alignments are real, but they're not fundamental, in the same sense that biology is real, but it's not fundamental. They're something that emerge as properties of complex systems.

pita
2006-02-09, 08:44 AM
I have written a code in this post, just try to find it.
Now, on topic, even though i am an Elan fan and i have been rooting for Belkar this whole time, Miko's grin is not a smirk. It is a simple "Whew, that was close." or "Whew, that was hard." or simply "Whew."

brummeren
2006-02-09, 08:46 AM
I love how you can always find a Calvin & Hobbes quote to match your need :) But i really can't see what they have got to do with any of this, at all.

Amalthea
2006-02-09, 10:48 AM
I confess, I don't think there's been an OotS yet with quite this many action lines...

alanajoli
2006-02-09, 11:18 AM
Overall, I'm neutral and would be perfectly happy if they spun off to a separate game where they perpetually hunted each other, like Spy v. Spy.


Would they get the nifty hats? (And then get to do Mountain Dew spots on network TV? *g*)

As for all the alignment arguing, until I can cast detect alignment, I figure I'll go with whatever Rich says. The alignment system for D&D has always been more about giving you an idea of your character's morality than it ever has been about clear definitions. (If it were clear, debates like this wouldn't rage in every gamer forum I've ever visited...)

I actually considered ordering "halfling drop soup" when we went out for dinner last night. Luckily, our plans changed at the last minute and we went for Indian instead of Chinese. This probably saved me a great deal of embarrassment.

Zargon
2006-02-09, 01:10 PM
I confess, I don't think there's been an OotS yet with quite this many action lines...


Umm... the big one was the first Miko vs Belkar strip - was locked at post 827!
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1137794640

ravenkith
2006-02-09, 01:12 PM
Some good points have been made.

I have to be honest, though: I'm rooting for Belkar.

It's true: Belkar is a (possibly raging?) homicidal maniac. It's clear that he has killed people. Probably lots of them. He is primarily motivated by base concerns. In the end, he doesn't care what happens, so long as he gets what he considers to be his, and those who try to hurt him, suffer. There's no way he's Chaotic Neutral.

At best, Belkar could be considered Neutral Evil, and only because he isn't actively trying to take over the world and bring suffering to everyone (that we're aware of).

On the other hand, we have Miko, who let's be honest about it, is about as radically Lawful Good as you can get. She believes firmly in the righteousness of her cause, so much so, that she is regarded as a zealot even by others of her kind.

Here is an individual who would come to your home, beat you half to death, and drag you hundreds of miles (in chains no less!) all in order to put you on trial for something that was essentially, a put up job.

Miko, and certainly the 'judge', aren't going to be very good at understanding 'extenuating circumstances'.

People like that, who see things only in terms of black and white, are downright irritating.

Human beings are fallible. Worse, we are meant to be fallible. So when a 'perfect' human being comes along, sure we admire them. We stand back and gaze upon them with a sense of awe and wonder. Then we secretly wish that they'd trip and slip in the mud, and maybe dirty themselves up a bit. We tear down those we admire, because at heart, we are all a little jealous of them, and resentful that they are better than us, and we cannot do anything but admit it.

It's natural to resent people like that.

Then again, the majority of the western world, especially the USA, loves the underdog. Societal consciousness dictates that it's not okay to hope that the massive multinational conglomerate crushes all small mom & pop businesses, then goes on to form a monopoly (Microsoft, anyone? Antitrust?).

In this case, the clear underdog is Belkar. His entire party was defeated twice by this woman (who is, I think all of us can agree, a very arrogant and singleminded individual, two unappealing traits), and he is on her home turf, surrounded by people who would aid her if she requested it. Add into this the fact that Belkar is clearly half the woman's size, and you cannot help but recognize his underdog status.

It is very natural for those of us of Western descent to root for Belkar: we are preprogrammed to do so. In the real world, Dillinger and Robin Hood represent some similar characters to Belkar, while Miko could perhaps be best compared to someone like Irwin Rommel, someone who followed his orders no matter where they lead, trying to bring with him a 'superior' and 'more orderly' way of life (Rommel was not a Nazi, just a military genius who did what he was told to do, very honorable and respected, especially by his enemies, like Patton).

Personally, I don't much care for the idea of anyone pushing their beliefs on me. The USA, in particular, has a very "Don't Tread on Me" kind of mentality (ironic, considering it's current situation).

All of this leads to a subconscious feeling of elation when seeing 'the little guy' take on the 'big bully' and outsmart her, which feeds into our conscious appreciation for the fine work and characters Mr. Burlew has crafted over a period of years.

In addition, he brings a vital amorality to the group shadowed only in Haley, who has lines that she will not cross.

Sometimes, in an adventuring group, you have to have someone willing to cross the lines in order to succeed in your mission.

Let's say that the evil cult needs to torture and kill a certain virgin girl in order to complete their ritual and summon 'The World-Ender' (why anyone would do this or something similar, I've never understood).

Foolishly, they've locked you and the girl in the same cell, for whatever reason. You've got no weapons, you're terribly injured, and couldn't possibly survive a fight with a cat, let alone a cult. Your options are:

A. Admit that you've failed

B. Wait for rescue (unlikely, as your companions have been slain getting you this far)

or

C. Try to escape

Of course, the character with questionable morals has more choices:
D. Deflower the (unwilling?) virgin
E. Kill the virgin in a humane manner

Of course, my personal preference would be for option D (hopefully she'd be willing after you explain the situation), followed by some variant of option C. That way, even if you get recaptured and the girl dies a horrible, agonizing death, the ritual won't succeed, and the world will be saved. :D

Belkar brings something to the strip. He is the repressed part of our consciousness that screams for blood when we are frustrated or threatened. He is all Ego, with no ID or Superego to restrain him. He's a throwback to neanderthal man, which humankind is not all that far removed from, from a chronological point of view. It would be a sad day to see him go, even for those who love to hate him.

In short (how else?): Flexible morals = Flexible characters = Unpredictable characters = Interesting reading

Amalthea
2006-02-09, 01:22 PM
Umm... the big one was the first Miko vs Belkar strip - was locked at post 827!
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1137794640
...no, strip 270 only has 7 action lines. The current one has 30. (32 if you count each hop as a separate action line.) And what does the daily thread have to do with my comment about the art? ???

GeekDaddy
2006-02-09, 01:26 PM
So many reactions to this bubbling up in my brain.


First reaction: Reminiscent of a Looney Toons or Tom & Jerry cartoon. Or Rocky and Bullwinkle? Is this The Giant's homage to Tex Avery? Chuck Jones? Jay Ward?

Second Reaction: You say Deus ex Machina, I say Jumped the Shark (http://www.jumptheshark.com for those of you who don't get this reference)

Third Reaction:
(to the tune of Shaving Creme)
The halfling fell off of the castle.
I thought that his head would be split.
But good luck was with him that evening
He fell in a cauldron of sh...
...Halfling Drop Soup


As to why Belkar survived? I say he has a level or two of 1st Edition monk in him and used his "Fall without damage" class ability

PhoeKun
2006-02-09, 01:36 PM
Second Reaction: You say Deus ex Machina, I say Jumped the Shark (http://www.jumptheshark.com for those of you who don't get this reference)


I don't get it. I perfectly understand the meaning of the phrase "jumped the shark" (although I despise it with with all the firey passion of a thousand suns squeezed into a tea cup), but I fail to see how it could apply in any way shape or form to this situation.

Who exactly, has missed their chance to bow out gracefully, and how?

GeekDaddy
2006-02-09, 01:49 PM
Well, as I understand the phrase, it represents the moment where, to put it kindly, the uphill momentum of the TV Show (in its original context, now it is used a bit more broadly) changed because of a situation, action or line that, in essence, makes you want to say, "Oh, c'mon!!! They can do better than that! I wasted half an hour (or more) of my life wacthing this cheesy crap?" TV Shows usually fall into this trap when trying some ratings ploy to pull itself out of some slump (Tonight, on a very special Blossom... Ripped from the headlines.... This is the one episode this season that will leave everyone talking...")

Rich has shown over the years (and especially over the past few weeks) his ability to write an excellent story. I just feel, and this is my personal opinion, that this strip would rank somewhere in the low 270's range were I asked to sort them by my opinion of the quality of writing in that particular strip.

That said, OOTS is a comic where Rediculousness and Absurdity have top-billing roles. As such, a little farce or slapstick to to be expected, encouraged and enjoyed. I just felt that too much effort was made to make this one hit the mark and therefore it didn't.

I still love the strip as a whole. Just not this one as much.

PhoeKun
2006-02-09, 02:06 PM
Ah, gotcha.

In my experience, every single show that has ever been accused of "jumping the shark" (...) never recovered, and doomed itself to a mediocrity it could have avoided by ending much sooner than it did.

Hence the confusion. I couldn't figure out for the life of me how this was the strip that ruined OotS. Now I know: it isn't. Not every strip can be the best one ever...

theKOT
2006-02-09, 02:11 PM
At best, Belkar could be considered Neutral Evil, and only because he isn't actively trying to take over the world and bring suffering to everyone (that we're aware of).

Except that he said himself that he is chaotic.

Here is an individual who would come to your home, beat you half to death, and drag you hundreds of miles (in chains no less!) all in order to put you on trial for something that was essentially, a put up job.
To be fair, she gave them a chance to surrender, and only dragged them in chains AFTER paying for their rooms despite their riches and letting them travel in relative comfort, then being thoroughly destroyed(verbally) by Roy, who, I might add, said that she would HAVE to drag them their in chains. However, you make a lot of great points and welcome to the board!