The logistics of glabrezu hunting.

[Braininthejar2]

So, my wizard is planning to call a glabrezu through planar binding.

I don't want to make it do my bidding. I want to summon and kill it - I need some of its body parts for a deal I'm making with another wizard.

This creates some logistical problems of course.

The circle: I'm conducting the ritual in a large underground cave, so I hope it won't be able to teleport (even greater teleport doesn't allow blind jumps, and I'm hoping he'd be unfamiliar with our world) but I'd like to take some precautions either way.

1 Does a rod of widen magic allow me to draw a bigger diagram?
2 If there is a fight inside the circle with no attacks crossing the line, is it still unbroken?
3 Are there any ways involving spellcraft checks to extend the size of the circle further?


The demon physiology: I need body parts. The demon will be physically there, so he won't disappear in a puff of smoke when killed.

But some sources mention demons dying in weird ways, such as exploding into maggots. How can I make sure I keep the body parts I need?
My current idea is to hit him with intelligence damage, and then vivisect him, but will it be enough? Are there any ways to make sure? I was thinking of gentle repose, but I can't cast it until he's actually dead, and then it might be too late.

[RNightstalker]

I would have a cleric finish a forbiddance spell right after the summoning finishes, or prepare a dimensional anchor to counter it teleporting out of there.

[Helluin]

What level are you? Do you have access to Limited Wish OR a reliable way to get through its SR? If the answer to either of those is yes, then you just need to either cast a Geas with enough CL to pierce its SR on 1, or use Sure Casting/Assay Spell Resistance followed by a Geas duplicated with Limited Wish; use the Geas to command the demon to relinquish all forms of resistance to your next spell, then hit it with a Sequester - this should preserve the demon’s body and make it comatose.

Also, why can’t you just use Dimensional anchor on your binding diagram?

[Braininthejar2]

I would have a cleric finish a forbiddance spell right after the summoning finishes, or prepare a dimensional anchor to counter it teleporting out of there.

No cleric involvement for RP reasons


then you just need to either cast a Geas with enough CL to pierce its SR on 1

Geas has a 10 minutes casting time.


Also, why can’t you just use Dimensional anchor on your binding diagram?

I can and I will - but putting anchor in a diagram only allows it to be cast in advance - it doesn't maintain the effect once the circle is broken - which it will be if the wizards outside the circle start casting spells at the demon.

My current best case scenario for taking it down is true casting > mind fog cast into a circle before the demon appears, then assay spell resistance > feeblemind followed by ray of stupidity to take its last int point and leave it in a coma.

If he saves agains mind fog, spectral hand > assay spell resistance > touch of idiocy, followed by as many enervates as it takes for it to ruin its will save.

[Helluin]

No cleric involvement for RP reasons



Geas has a 10 minutes casting time.



I can and I will - but putting anchor in a diagram only allows it to be cast in advance - it doesn't maintain the effect once the circle is broken - which it will be if the wizards outside the circle start casting spells at the demon.

My current best case scenario for taking it down is true casting > mind fog cast into a circle before the demon appears, then assay spell resistance > feeblemind followed by ray of stupidity to take its last int point and leave it in a coma.

If he saves agains mind fog, spectral hand > assay spell resistance > touch of idiocy, followed by as many enervates as it takes for it to ruin its will save.

So? The demon is trapped in your circle and if you used a diagram, you have a full day to cast whatever you want before it even gets to try to escape.

[daremetoidareyo]

What organs do you need? A contingency preserve organ (bovd) might prevent explosion of your preferred organ. Grim revenge can get you a claw.

Consider asking for the part you need? Maybe it's not a big deal if you replace it with an appropriate graft? Or, maybe offer a graft as a reward for a minor task, and just steal what you want mid surgery. Lol.

[Saintheart]

But some sources mention demons dying in weird ways, such as exploding into maggots. How can I make sure I keep the body parts I need?
My current idea is to hit him with intelligence damage, and then vivisect him, but will it be enough? Are there any ways to make sure? I was thinking of gentle repose, but I can't cast it until he's actually dead, and then it might be too late.

There's the (general, unfortunately, so no emulation by Heroics) feat Snatch Trophy from Champions of Ruin: after dealing a creature enough damage to drop it to negative hit points, as a free action you can slice off or pry off a trophy. No real limits on the trophy other than that it has to weigh less than 2 pounds. Creature can regrow it if it's got regeneration. Once it's off the main body, it likely isn't affected by weird death shenanigans.

[Jowgen]

Widening the Magic Circle works. There's even a metamagic component (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/metamagicComponents.htm) for that specific purprose if you want to go that route. Nothing limits the size of the calling diagram, it's just the size of the magic circle spell that you need to worry about.

Nothing prevents the Glabrezu from using all its ranged/magic abilities to try and murder you, just as nothing prevents you from going into the circle and putting the boot to it. However, any sort of fighting inside the circle may very well disturb the calling diagram. It's quite fragile, as per the "straw laid across it" rule. IIRC there is a magic items somewhere that's a permanent calling diagram etched into a surface that can take a bit more punishment, but can't recall where.

My recommendation for how to trap it effectively is to use the Golden Ice ravage, combined with a sprayer (A&E) loaded with atramen oil (PlH), crafted by someone with the Poison Specialization feat (dragon mag), and with a dose of the oak death alchemical substance (also some dragon mag) added.

This combo imposes a -4 no save penalty to its Fort save, while increasing the Golden Ice DC to 18, giving you at least a 20% chance for it to fail its save against a given dose, which you can hit it with in all kinds of ways since its contact based. A single failed save will deal it 1d6 + 2 + 5 Dex damage, ignoring its immunity, so that's a 50/50 chance to paralyze it outright.

You can try to abuse the action economy to either bombard it immediately upon your arrival till it fails before it can do anything, or you can take your time while trusting in your calling diagram (provided you got a dimensional anchor on there somehow).

Either case though, don't kill it and take the organs. Paralyze, take the organs, use preserve organ, and then kill it if you feel like it.

[Buufreak]

I had a bit of weird logic concerning this. Assuming that outsiders indeed have organs, do they actually need them? Also, outsider physiology might vary greatly from most organisms. Potentially, whatever organ you need, for any number of reasons, the demon might simply not need it. Hell, it might even be willing to barter for one of its 5 livers, depending on the specifics.

Just food for thought.

[Braininthejar2]

So? The demon is trapped in your circle and if you used a diagram, you have a full day to cast whatever you want before it even gets to try to escape.

This is a key information.

With the "straw across the line discrupts the circle" description, (and the "outsiders can't touch you as long as you don't attack" rule of protection from evil) I thought that any attack spell cast from outside to the inside of the circle would allow the demon to walk out.

Could someone give a definitive ruling on this one, because it sounds kind of important.

(by the same token, if the demon can't walk out or "do anything to disrupt the circle" can he cast attack spells through it if it hasn't broken free?)

[Seto]

I did this exact thing in Pathfinder. With a Glabrezu, too. Researched it, had my Summoner friend trace the magic circle and draw the diagram, Bound it, walked into the circle and killed it. I didn't even have to walk into the circle to physically maul it, could have wittled it down from outside, but my character is just that kind of guy. DM actually rolled a random chance of splashes of blood disturbing the circle.

Regarding attacks crossing the circle, how it works (both in 3.5 and Pathfinder, the wording is the same), is:

The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.

So without the diagram, it can attack you, and you can attack it. Cast spells, no problem. As long as nothing physical comes in contact with the circle on the ground. However.


You can add a special diagram (a two-dimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. [...] A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram.

It can't attack you across the circle, and you can still attack it, since it's trapped within a diagram and you're not. So if you do the diagram right (take 20 if you need to), you don't have to worry about it teleporting away, or attacking you or anything. If you can go through its SR and debuff it, you can make it your dog. You don't even have to cross the circle, and it can't do anything to you. That's why Outsiders hate being bound.
It can still try the Charisma check (with +5 to the DC), so you should buff yourself before casting and debuff it as soon as it gets there if possible. For extra caution, it's good to have caster friends with you, ready with prepared actions. It's more secure.

[Korwin]

What level are you? Do you have access to Limited Wish OR a reliable way to get through its SR? If the answer to either of those is yes, then you just need to either cast a Geas with enough CL to pierce its SR on 1, or use Sure Casting/Assay Spell Resistance followed by a Geas duplicated with Limited Wish; use the Geas to command the demon to relinquish all forms of resistance to your next spell, then hit it with a Sequester - this should preserve the demon’s body and make it comatose.

Also, why can’t you just use Dimensional anchor on your binding diagram?
How does Geas help here? Sequester seems to be equivalent with certain death...

While a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity.

[Braininthejar2]

It can't attack you across the circle, and you can still attack it, since it's trapped within a diagram and you're not.

What about its summon ability? Can it call upon another demon and ask it to break the circle, of will it be likewise trapped?

[Seto]

What about its summon ability? Can it call upon another demon and ask it to break the circle, of will it be likewise trapped?


The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can.
Personally I'd rule that doing that would count as "indirectly disturbing the circle" by using its Summon SLA. So in my game, it couldn't. I'm pretty confident about that. Binding is a confusing process, though, and it's possible that individual GMs might feel differently. Unfortunately that's also the case about your second question (harvesting body parts), since what happens to the body of demons upon death is, as far as I can tell, pure fluff. I agree that cutting them out while it's alive has the best chance of working, but once again it's ultimately a GM call.
That's why, if your GM is the kind to work with players and make cool things happen, I'd suggest straight up asking them. You can fluff it in-game by having your character research demons (Knowledge checks) and delve into forbidden lore, that adds flair to the whole affaire.

[RNightstalker]

What about its summon ability? Can it call upon another demon and ask it to break the circle, of will it be likewise trapped?

Summoned creatures can't use their summoning abilities.

[Septimus]

Planar binding is a Calling spell, not a Summon spell, so a called creature can use its summon ability. However, I agree that it should fall into the "indirectly disturbing the circle" clause.

[Efrate]

Demons do not need nor necessarily have organs, at least with any function. Everything they may have is vestigal. Except maybe lungs since outsiders do need to breathe. It's also totally random even amoung same species of demons. They can eat, excrete, etc. but have no need to.

Harvesting from a living demon seems easiest, and you can just ask assuming you can force it to be honest and honor a bargain. Might take a few calls to get one that has the right organ but you can find one.

[unseenmage]

Iirc there's a jug or jar in Arms and Equipment Guide that stops time for its contents.

[ZamielVanWeber]

It is a glabrezu. Couldn't you just convince it to Wish you up some glabrezu organs in return for it's immediate freedom? Seems the safest way of going about it.

[unseenmage]

It is a glabrezu. Couldn't you just convince it to Wish you up some glabrezu organs in return for it's immediate freedom? Seems the safest way of going about it.

At that point just Marvelous Pigments some critter bits.

[daremetoidareyo]

planar bind a devil and send that to go glabrezu hunting?

[ZamielVanWeber]

At that point just Marvelous Pigments some critter bits.

With wish you can wish they be extracted from a living glabrezu and teleported to you. Marvelous Pigments makes a facsimile which may not be good enough

[Braininthejar2]

It is a glabrezu. Couldn't you just convince it to Wish you up some glabrezu organs in return for it's immediate freedom? Seems the safest way of going about it.

Yup, humilitating an immortal, wish-granting psychopath, and then letting him go is clearly the safest way to solve this problem.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yup, humilitating an immortal, wish-granting psychopath, and then letting him go is clearly the safest way to solve this problem.

As opposed to killing an immortal, wish-granting, psychopath and then hope that he did not serve one of the many, many, many princes of the Abyss? Also you could just kill him after wishing for the organs. Leaves less room for "breaking the circle" shenanigans screwing you over.

[ShurikVch]

Knock the glabrezu out with nonlethal damage; harvest the necessary organ; keep him alive with monstrous regeneration to avoid the "maggots".


Assuming that outsiders indeed have organsJudging by this picture - they are.
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/fc1_gallery/98431.jpg

do they actually need them?By the fact Sneak Attack and Stunning Fist still working - yes.

[Efrate]

I do not know the sneak attack thing holds up because of organs. They have no appreciable anatomy since they survive regardless of anything else as long as they can breathe. Maybe rogues and the like can just see a less armored piece of body and line up a shot.

The dretch dissection from fc1 mentions previous attempts were made and calls some of this out in the fluff text.

[Mr Adventurer]

Isn't "no appreciable anatomy" the litmus test for whether critical hits and sneak attack applies? And they do apply to demons etc. So they do have recognisable anatomy.

[Crake]

The demon physiology: I need body parts. The demon will be physically there, so he won't disappear in a puff of smoke when killed.

But some sources mention demons dying in weird ways, such as exploding into maggots. How can I make sure I keep the body parts I need?
My current idea is to hit him with intelligence damage, and then vivisect him, but will it be enough? Are there any ways to make sure? I was thinking of gentle repose, but I can't cast it until he's actually dead, and then it might be too late.

As per the fiendish codex I, you simply have a 5% chance to get lucky and have the body collapse and expire as normal, and even then, it is noted that it will eventually return to the abyss unless contained through magical means, such as a dimensional anchor spell.

Also, it's worth discussing with your DM about how attacking through a magical circle will work. The playground will use the unambiguous RAW intepretation of "you can do whatever you want to the creature", but your DM may have a different view on the matter, and their view is the only one that counts in this regard. They may very well not want planar binding to be usable as an interplanar assassination spell, and want to keep more in tone with the nature of the spell as it's described "a very dangerous act". If you can indiscriminately attack the fiend, then trapping it doesn't seem very dangerous, does it.

[Jowgen]

As per the fiendish codex I, you simply have a 5% chance to get lucky and have the body collapse and expire as normal, and even then, it is noted that it will eventually return to the abyss unless contained through magical means, such as a dimensional anchor spell.

Also, it's worth discussing with your DM about how attacking through a magical circle will work. The playground will use the unambiguous RAW intepretation of "you can do whatever you want to the creature", but your DM may have a different view on the matter, and their view is the only one that counts in this regard. They may very well not want planar binding to be usable as an interplanar assassination spell, and want to keep more in tone with the nature of the spell as it's described "a very dangerous act". If you can indiscriminately attack the fiend, then trapping it doesn't seem very dangerous, does it.

This.

Hence my suggestion for disabling the Glabrezu to harvest organs while it lives, and treating the summoning as special combat scenario where you ideally want to finish it with just a surprise round and won initiative.

I still maintain my recommendation of using DC-pumped Golden Ice, as a single failed save can down the target. You can use unseen servants to operate sprayers and other contraptions that'll force contact in a way that'll allow you to subject it to multiple saves in the surprise round alone.

An improvement is if you could somehow apply additional debuffs to its Fort save too.

[Buufreak]

Knock the glabrezu out with nonlethal damage; harvest the necessary organ; keep him alive with monstrous regeneration to avoid the "maggots".

Judging by this picture - they are.
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/fc1_gallery/98431.jpg
By the fact Sneak Attack and Stunning Fist still working - yes.

So they lack stun immunity and take additional damage. I particularly dislike my ears being touched but can live without them. My point is these are creatures made out of the elemental forces of chaos and evil, in contrast to mortals on the Prime. Nothing explicitly states that removing all their organs will kill them, or even hinder them.

[ShurikVch]

So they lack stun immunity and take additional damage. I particularly dislike my ears being touched but can live without them. My point is these are creatures made out of the elemental forces of chaos and evil, in contrast to mortals on the Prime. Nothing explicitly states that removing all their organs will kill them, or even hinder them.Oh, but it states!..

Decerebrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm) does work on them - thus, they still need their brain.

Stop Heart/Heartfreeze/Heartclutch/Heart Ripper/Clutch of Orcus still kills them - thus they need their hearts (or similar vital organs) too.

Gutwrench still kills them - thus, they need their innards too!

Even their blood is still necessary for them - Blood Drain SA (such as that of a dire weasel, gibbering mouther, rast, or stirge), Avasculate, Blood Siphon, or Control Blood spells are still effective against them.

[Braininthejar2]

The game was today, and frankly proved rather anticlimactic - the circle held, the demon didn't save against mind fog, and it was finished in two rounds.

As for the organ harvesting, My mage's backctory involves having a grudge against gods, and general refusal to work with priests - so I talked my DM into letting me treat medicine as a craft/knowledge skill rather than a profession - as the result, at level 14 my wizard is the best surgeon on the continent.

I also developed a custom spell that lets me modify a creature's body, such as appearance or blood type, through an hour long ritual - I made it for things like plastic surgery for my spies, or making grafts easier to do, but it was usable here as well.

After I spent a week summoning and vivisecting dretches, the DM ruled that a body part will stay stable if I remove and gentle repose it before the demon dies. I also had some knowledge about Earth's medicine from stranded planar travellers.

So I spent the next two days methodically harvesting a braindead glabrezu, even building a pump to keep his body alive while I removed the heart. The only snag was having to perform surgery with a greataxe, as I realised too late that I hadn't prepared any surgical tools capable of piercing his damage reduction.

[Seto]

The only snag was having to perform surgery with a greataxe, as I realised too late that I hadn't prepared any surgical tools capable of piercing his damage reduction.

Right, I'd forgotten about that part! I ended up not needing it :smallbiggrin: To one Glabrezu binder to another, congrats on a job well done!

[RNightstalker]

The only snag was having to perform surgery with a greataxe, as I realised too late that I hadn't prepared any surgical tools capable of piercing his damage reduction.

Post of the day!