Higher Powered Point Buy Budget

[Mongobear]

Starting a new game soon, and I want to use PB but also allow extra leeway for secondary/tertiary stats, and covering "dump stats" to potentially not have a save penalty.

My current iteration is a 32pt budget, and allow buying up to a 16 and 17 for 3pts each (15 pts would get you a 17), a +2 Racial gets you to 19, so I don't have to look at 20s until level 4.

Alternatively, I also came up with an "Epic Array" which is 16 15 14 13 11 10, just Standard Array with a blanket +1 to each score (+2 to the 8), which is a 38pt equivalent, but takes away the customization ability other than where they go.

My last idea, was use the standard budget, but start at a 10 in everything and allow up to a 17 as before, but this was even stronger than the current version for dump stats.

My reasoning--The campaign is going to be difficult. It's not a dungeon crawl after dumb Orcs, the enemies are a well organized force and I am planning to use actual Tactics during combats. Mental saves vs Barbarians, Physical saves vs squishy Mages, targeting supports/healers if possible, and Save or Suck spells used against the group.

It culminates in an extreme threat, and I want the PCs to actually have a chance, not reach the boss room and fall unconscious because they dumped the wrong stat.

Does anyone have a suggestion on a way to augment Point Buy without reaching ridiculous levels?

[Gignere]

Maybe start with a feat in addition to your suggested point buy.

[Dork_Forge]

Just putting the floor at 10 effectively raises the budget, so all stats start at ten and you can take a stat to 16/17 before racials?

In addition you could consider starting feats to ease some pressure on stats, and consider starting every session with one inspiration to help players deal with the difficulty level. You could even add in additional uses for inspiration like a damage reduction effect.

[Mongobear]

Maybe start with a feat in addition to your suggested point buy.



...

In addition you could consider starting feats to ease some pressure on stats, and consider starting every session with one inspiration to help players deal with the difficulty level. You could even add in additional uses for inspiration like a damage reduction effect.

I actually do plan to allow a starting Feat for everyone. (No V. Humans, standard only.)

I'm just having trouble deciding where to start the PB budget. If I go by the book version, I could do 45 and start at 8s, which is enough to do 17 17 17 8 8 8, similarly to the min/max AL stats I see a lot with the 27 pt budget. However, this seems WAY too high, and if they balance stats, they could have 14s or better everywhere.

EDIT--Im thinking starting somewhere between 32 to 38 is the sweet spot to shore up low stats.

[bid]

Give them one 18 and normal point buy for the rest (18 15 14 13 12 10 standard array).

Give them normal point buy, with 2 half-feats.


I think it's better to help their out-of-combat potential, hence the skill half-feats. You can always drop magic items later for martial prowess.

[Dork_Forge]

I actually do plan to allow a starting Feat for everyone. (No V. Humans, standard only.)

I'm just having trouble deciding where to start the PB budget. If I go by the book version, I could do 45 and start at 8s, which is enough to do 17 17 17 8 8 8, similarly to the min/max AL stats I see a lot with the 27 pt budget. However, this seems WAY too high, and if they balance stats, they could have 14s or better everywhere.

EDIT--Im thinking starting somewhere between 32 to 38 is the sweet spot to shore up low stats.

Honestly I wouldn't really worry about stats being too high in how you're thinking. I think a bigger issue is when a character has maxed main stats but still has +2s to tertiary and dump stats. As long as they still need to get to 4th before they hit 20 they won't feel over powered. So a limit of 17 before racial, but it really comes down to the type of players you have, are they likely to take the min max approach of dumping 2 or even 3 stats? If yes then you can work to balance it better if not then just give them the space to hit campaign appropriate stats.

[Mongobear]

Honestly I wouldn't really worry about stats being too high in how you're thinking. I think a bigger issue is when a character has maxed main stats but still has +2s to tertiary and dump stats. As long as they still need to get to 4th before they hit 20 they won't feel over powered. So a limit of 17 before racial, but it really comes down to the type of players you have, are they likely to take the min max approach of dumping 2 or even 3 stats? If yes then you can work to balance it better if not then just give them the space to hit campaign appropriate stats.

One or two might, but the rest (6 PC party) are more likely to play "Rule of Cool" combos. We've had Dragonborn Archery Rangers, Dragonborn Barbarians, and I've lost count on Dwarf/Half-Orc/Goliath Wizards or Sorcerers.

[Dork_Forge]

One or two might, but the rest (6 PC party) are more likely to play "Rule of Cool" combos. We've had Dragonborn Archery Rangers, Dragonborn Barbarians, and I've lost count on Dwarf/Half-Orc/Goliath Wizards or Sorcerers.

In which case I'd just set the floor as 10 and raise the limit to 17 with a free feat. With no one at a - 1 and the potential for higher non essential stats/not penalised off key races you should achieve what you want.

[Mongobear]

In which case I'd just set the floor as 10 and raise the limit to 17 with a free feat. With no one at a - 1 and the potential for higher non essential stats/not penalised off key races you should achieve what you want.

Floor of 10 + standard 27 budget + 17 cap?

[Dork_Forge]

Floor of 10 + standard 27 budget + 17 cap?

Yeah that's right, by raising the floor you're effectively raising the budget without handing out more points and avoid those dumps that could get characters in lethal situations in what you described.

Just be aware if someone takes a half stat then there is the potential of a 20

[Mongobear]

I'm starting them at 5th level, as this is a continuation of a former campaign, and the new group is well sponsored.

I set a rule that they cant have a 20 at 1st level, but it's fine at 4th, just to prevent min/max cheese.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm starting them at 5th level, as this is a continuation of a former campaign, and the new group is well sponsored.

I set a rule that they cant have a 20 at 1st level, but it's fine at 4th, just to prevent min/max cheese.

That sounds like a really good set up! Would be interested in an update what the players do with the stat bump

[Tetrasodium]

Starting a new game soon, and I want to use PB but also allow extra leeway for secondary/tertiary stats, and covering "dump stats" to potentially not have a save penalty.

My current iteration is a 32pt budget, and allow buying up to a 16 and 17 for 3pts each (15 pts would get you a 17), a +2 Racial gets you to 19, so I don't have to look at 20s until level 4.

Alternatively, I also came up with an "Epic Array" which is 16 15 14 13 11 10, just Standard Array with a blanket +1 to each score (+2 to the 8), which is a 38pt equivalent, but takes away the customization ability other than where they go.

My last idea, was use the standard budget, but start at a 10 in everything and allow up to a 17 as before, but this was even stronger than the current version for dump stats.

My reasoning--The campaign is going to be difficult. It's not a dungeon crawl after dumb Orcs, the enemies are a well organized force and I am planning to use actual Tactics during combats. Mental saves vs Barbarians, Physical saves vs squishy Mages, targeting supports/healers if possible, and Save or Suck spells used against the group.

It culminates in an extreme threat, and I want the PCs to actually have a chance, not reach the boss room and fall unconscious because they dumped the wrong stat.

Does anyone have a suggestion on a way to augment Point Buy without reaching ridiculous levels?

It's not point buy, but might work for you. You can do colville method (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K9mKpAMREU&feature=youtu.be&t=8m53s) (3 or 4d6 roll stats in order but reroll the array if it doesn't have at least 2 15's) it has a lot of the benefits of point buy without the idiot savant rainman type skew. Someone made a thing to generate them here (https://blog.dwgill.com/matt-colville-rollout/).

[Mongobear]

It's not point buy, but might work for you. You can do colville method (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K9mKpAMREU&feature=youtu.be&t=8m53s) (3 or 4d6 roll stats in order but reroll the array if it doesn't have at least 2 15's) it has a lot of the benefits of point buy without the idiot savant rainman type skew. Someone made a thing to generate them here (https://blog.dwgill.com/matt-colville-rollout/).

I want everyone to be equal, other than personal choices, and not get one guy who just barely made the cut, and someone else with no stat below a 15. Also, we as a group have been doing Point Buy since 3.X, it's faster and keeps everyone on even footing.

[Mongobear]

That sounds like a really good set up! Would be interested in an update what the players do with the stat bump

I know one person was planning a Mountain Dwarf Battle Rager descended from Thibbledorf Pwent. (We play in a slightly ahead timeline of Faerun, after all the current novels and such are ended, so as not to interfere. Iirc, the current year for us is 1654.

He is one of the Balanced array guys, and iirc went 16 15 15 10 13 10 PB, started with MAM(+1 Dex), and then GWM at 4th. So his stats at 5th are 18 16 17 10 13 10.

He has expressed interest in Resilient Wisdom, and possibly one of the XGtE racial Feats to round off his stats, then maxing Strength.

We also treat "Spiked Armor" as an enhancement, not it's own class of armor, so he will have "Spiked Half Plate" for Armor, instead of basically getting stuck with Scale mail forever.

[Dork_Forge]

I know one person was planning a Mountain Dwarf Battle Rager descended from Thibbledorf Pwent. (We play in a slightly ahead timeline of Faerun, after all the current novels and such are ended, so as not to interfere. Iirc, the current year for us is 1654.

He is one of the Balanced array guys, and iirc went 16 15 15 10 13 10 PB, started with MAM(+1 Dex), and then GWM at 4th. So his stats at 5th are 18 16 17 10 13 10.

He has expressed interest in Resilient Wisdom, and possibly one of the XGtE racial Feats to round off his stats, then maxing Strength.

We also treat "Spiked Armor" as an enhancement, not it's own class of armor, so he will have "Spiked Half Plate" for Armor, instead of basically getting stuck with Scale mail forever.

I've never actually known anyone to play a Battle Rager before, but having looked at it again it's essentially a bit more of an appealing Beserker. You get a BA attack but without having to give yourself exhaustion, I hope that he makes the most out of that armor! I like you treat it as an enchancement rather than a fixed item, makes it much more flexible and open to progression.

It's sounding like a fun campaign!

[Mongobear]

I've never actually known anyone to play a Battle Rager before, but having looked at it again it's essentially a bit more of an appealing Beserker. You get a BA attack but without having to give yourself exhaustion, I hope that he makes the most out of that armor! I like you treat it as an enchancement rather than a fixed item, makes it much more flexible and open to progression.

It's sounding like a fun campaign!

I'd like it more if all the spike abilities were 1d4+Str formula, the 3 damage effect sorta may as well not be there.

The archetype is also pretty tanky, between Rage and Reckless Abandon, getting 5 temp hp every round you Reckless Attack alongside Rage and a decent AC can put you up around Bear Totem levels of resiliency.

The Spike enhancement has been a house rule since about 5 seconds after I got my copy of SCAG and read Spiked Armor. I almost changed it to allow them to Rage in Heavy armor as well, because iirc Pwent actually wears full plate in the Salvatore novels, but my players were fine with just the enhancement part. Also, Magical armor makes the spikes count as a magical weapon, bypassing resistances.

Thank you!

[Dork_Forge]

I'd like it more if all the spike abilities were 1d4+Str formula, the 3 damage effect sorta may as well not be there.

The archetype is also pretty tanky, between Rage and Reckless Abandon, getting 5 temp hp every round you Reckless Attack alongside Rage and a decent AC can put you up around Bear Totem levels of resiliency.

The Spike enhancement has been a house rule since about 5 seconds after I got my copy of SCAG and read Spiked Armor. I almost changed it to allow them to Rage in Heavy armor as well, because iirc Pwent actually wears full plate in the Salvatore novels, but my players were fine with just the enhancement part. Also, Magical armor makes the spikes count as a magical weapon, bypassing resistances.

Thank you!

I played an Immortal Mystic and getting temp hp every round was a very nice and statisfying ability, I was the only party member to not go down at any point. To be honest I've never read a D&D novel, I wouldn't mind reading some just no idea where to start!

[Mongobear]

Even though they've quite cliche for the last few trilogies, early R.A. Salvatore's series with Drizzt stuff is great. I'd recommend starting with those.

Otherwise, I also liked the Rage of Dragons series, but I can't recall the author.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I want everyone to be equal, other than personal choices, and not get one guy who just barely made the cut, and someone else with no stat below a 15. Also, we as a group have been doing Point Buy since 3.X, it's faster and keeps everyone on even footing.

One interesting method I've had a DM use was to roll for stats (4D6 drop lowest, arrange to preference in stats), but set a minimum floor and ceiling for the overall modifier for all 6 stats. In other words, if the rolled stats don't total up to a minimum for the stat modifiers (I think it was +6 that he used for his own high-powered campaign), then you rerolled. If it went over the maximum (+8?), you had to nerf something down until the overall stat modifiers were "only" +8 (or whatever the set maximum was).

Made for some powerful starting stats, but none of the characters was much more powerful than the others.

[Gignere]

Other rolled stats ideas is that you would roll up three sets of decent stats and allow each player to choose from it. Alternatively you can make 3 - 4 sets of stat arrays based on your preferred PB and allow players to choose.

[Emongnome777]

Our group does pretty strong starting stats, but no 1st level feat (vhuman notwithstanding)

1) Start with 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10
2) Can optionally add 1 to a single stat and subtract 1 from another with the following limitations:
-Cannot raise the 16 or lower the 10
-Cannot modify both of the odd stats (therefore giving 6 even scores)