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View Full Version : Quick question from a 2E/3E/PF veteran



Manyasone
2019-08-21, 06:53 AM
I'm looking to expand my horizon concerning TTRPG a bit. I'm already familiar with fate and mutants&masterminds.
Any others suggestions?
Not PF2E or 5E, please ;-)

Rhedyn
2019-08-21, 07:08 AM
Savage Worlds - midcrunch high action generic rpg that covers a wide range of concepts. Tons of of support. If this is your kind of game then you will not need to play anything else.
Stars Without Number - A great sci-fi RPG with an OSR bent (not quite rules light but close). Free legal pdf available.
DCCRPG - 0D&D as people remember it as oppose to how it actually was. Lots of random tables. Overall a good time.
The Black Hack 2e - What if older D&D was as simple as people remember? Rules light fantasy with a ton of content and high compatibility with all the old modules.
Ars Magica - Mythical Europe troupe play with high magic and high crunch (though simpler than 3.X)
GURPS 4e - A giant toolbox of everything you need to make the GURPS RPG you want. *some assembly required
Fudge - Now you are just making up an RPG system. Similar to Fate but a couple of steps back in the creative process.

Khedrac
2019-08-21, 07:16 AM
The options are too many to name or count.

So, you really need to classify a bit:

0. Are you going to be able to get your fellow players to go along with you? Are there limits on what they will play?

1. What genre of game are you after - Fantasy, SciFi, Supers, Modern Horror, Comedy, etc.?

2. Are you looking for free systems or what sort of budget do you have for buying a new system?

3. Do you want a system that needs a proper campaign to test, or are you after something more suitable for short/one-shot adventures?

4. Do you want to stick to "similar to what you know" or are you up for "anything goes" for the underlying mechanics?

5. Do you want something still in print (so easy to find but new stuff is coming out) or complete(so you know what to buy, but have to hunt to find it)
6. Do you like complex mechanics or do you prefer simplicity?

An example of Fantasy/Reasonable budget/either-campaign/not similar/in print/medium complexity would be the new "RuneQuest: Glorantha" from Chaosium, which has has a Quickstart adventure available (that I think might be free?).
An example of SciFi-comedy/reasonable/shorts/in print/low complexity would be Paranoia which I think Mongoose currently produce.
But Other/Free/shorts/out-of-print but downloadable/low complexity includes "Lost Souls" whenre you play newly dead spirits trying to survive the afterlife and possibly reach heaven...

Grod_The_Giant
2019-08-21, 07:31 AM
From a 3.PF perspective, I think the most natural next step might be to look at some of the other prominent systems with comperable character-building depth and crunch. Things like Exalted, World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness games, Shadowrun, and GURPS.

Koo Rehtorb
2019-08-21, 09:59 AM
I don't think shouting random roleplaying games at you is likely to be productive. You're going to have to narrow it down some.

Anonymouswizard
2019-08-21, 10:20 AM
From a 3.PF perspective, I think the most natural next step might be to look at some of the other prominent systems with comperable character-building depth and crunch. Things like Exalted, World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness games, Shadowrun, and GURPS.

That's an option. Another is to go for a similarly stylistic game with a lighter ruleset, such as Dungeon World, or something somewhat but not vastly different in terms of mechanics (sometimes combining mechanical differences with setting differences can help).

It's also possible to go for the even crunchier games, but they are a nightmare if not everybody is up for it. As I learnt the one time I tried to run Anima: Beyond Fantasy (and for that matter GURPS, that group was more suited to the BD&D/Unknown Armies level of crunch).

@OP: On the 'similar depth and crunch' angle I can recommend Legend of the Five Rings 4e, Alternity 2e (although that's got very little in the way of material at the moment), and potentially one of the Le Septime Cercle games (although I believe they're out of print in English, they have very good settings attached to mediocre rules). For similarly stylistic but rather different mechanics I recommend Blades in the Dark, or Scum and Villainy if you want to do something science fiction (it runs on the Blades in the Dark engine).

Manyasone
2019-08-21, 12:27 PM
I don't think shouting random roleplaying games at you is likely to be productive. You're going to have to narrow it down some.
I get that, I do. I like rules heavy systems, systems that award diving into the rules. I also like more gritty games. And while I do love my magic, I prefer my magic not as an 'i win' button. I love the 'spheres' system from DDS for instance

Koo Rehtorb
2019-08-21, 12:52 PM
I get that, I do. I like rules heavy systems, systems that award diving into the rules. I also like more gritty games. And while I do love my magic, I prefer my magic not as an 'i win' button. I love the 'spheres' system from DDS for instance

Burning Wheel. It's complicated, well designed, and rewards system mastery. Violence is very dangerous, getting hit once probably means you've lost the fight, getting hit once hard probably means you're crippled for months, or dead. Magic is very powerful, but also difficult to cast and very risky.

Rhedyn
2019-08-21, 01:31 PM
I get that, I do. I like rules heavy systems, systems that award diving into the rules. I also like more gritty games. And while I do love my magic, I prefer my magic not as an 'i win' button. I love the 'spheres' system from DDS for instance
Savage Worlds then.

No it's not terribly crunchy, but it's very deep and a lot grittier than 3.PF. The system rewards understanding the rules, but not so much character building system mastery.

Magic isn't an "I win" button, but the current SWADE edition did a lot to make magic cooler.

I would recommend Savage Worlds to anyone that has played a lot of rules heavy systems because it approaches rules the same way. "Having rules for things is good", but it tries to be efficient with the rules.

Anonymouswizard
2019-08-21, 02:22 PM
I get that, I do. I like rules heavy systems, systems that award diving into the rules. I also like more gritty games. And while I do love my magic, I prefer my magic not as an 'i win' button. I love the 'spheres' system from DDS for instance

Yeah, you pretty much want Burning Wheel. It's built on a 'hub and spokes' system where central mechanic can be used for everything, but things like combat and magic have their own systems that are worth diving into.

The system is split into two books. Burning Wheel Gold includes the core mechanics, the combat system, the systems for Sorcery and Emotional Magic, duels of wits, fear, resources, relationships and affiliations, and things like movement as well as the rules for creating ('Burning') dwarven, elven, human and orcish characters.

The Burning Wheel Codex is the supplementary book, including advice on making adventures and commentary on the author's view f how the game should be played, but also includes rules for Practical Magic (magical ways of doing certain skills), Art Magic (freeform magic that is somewhat less direct than Sorcery), enchanting items, summoning and binding spirits/demons, Death Art (one of the few kinds of necromancy that actually felt 'evil' to me), more folkloric magic, using blood sacrifices to power magic, limited magic loadouts, and rules for Burning humans using the new magic systems, dark elves, roden (rat men), trolls, and great wolves, as well as a few other bits and bobs.

All of this is modular, so you can 1) only use the parts suitable for the setting, and 2) introduce elements as and when you need them. If nobody wants to play a Sorcerer then the system runs fine, and you can plonk the rules back in when an NPC needs them. A particular wizard might only use the summoning rules and you can ignore all of the spellcasting-specific rules without breaking the game, I think they even have different consequences for failure as part of this.

Magic is also not an 'I win' button. Human magic is dangerous, as is orc magic, elven and great wolf magic is expensive to learn as each spell is it's own skill, dwarves don't really use magic (although the 'dwarven system' is essentially enchanting), human and roden faith being unreliable, and trolls are too dumb even if they did have a system. It is powerful, and it will occasionally let you circumvent a problem, but it's difficult to have a wide array of spells and most magicians will often come across problems where they have to use their mundane skills.

The downside is that character balance is considered less important than fiction emulation, while characters of the same species with the same number of life paths are theoretically equal not all life paths are of equal value, with characters from the upper ranks of society generally just having better stats, skills, and equipment at the potential penalty of earning Artha slower due to having less negative traits. The races are not balanced with each other, Elves and Orcs are pretty much the best, with everybody else following behind and humans hovering near last place (trolls are arguably worse, although physically much stronger). You pretty much need a gentleman's agreement not to tread on each other's toes, and for characters with similar mechanical focuses to have distinct story roles.

Don't get Savage Worlds unless you want a system that focuses on combat to the point that noncombat skills don't get anything in the way of special tricks. Adding them together there's 3-4 pages of Edges that let you do new things in combat or resist dying, about a page of magic related Edges, and then a bunch of Edges that boil down to '+2 to X skill in Y situation'.

Rhedyn
2019-08-21, 02:56 PM
Don't get Savage Worlds unless you want a system that focuses on combat to the point that noncombat skills don't get anything in the way of special tricks. Adding them together there's 3-4 pages of Edges that let you do new things in combat or resist dying, about a page of magic related Edges, and then a bunch of Edges that boil down to '+2 to X skill in Y situation'.
Your information is not only outdated but was never correct in the first place. Any skill can be used to Test an opponent (for debuffs) or Support an ally for any roll provided what you describe makes sense to the GM.

To OP: Edges are Feat-like widgets that characters gain overtime. They do a wide variety of things especially once you get into a setting book. The current core-rule book has plenty of non-combat options. I think this poster was either referencing two editions ago or last edition but had trouble with the layout of the book (like many people).

Aside: editions are backwards compatible. You have to clarify that with the way a lot of RPGs handle their editions.

Anonymouswizard
2019-08-21, 04:25 PM
Your information is not only outdated but was never correct in the first place. Any skill can be used to Test an opponent (for debuffs) or Support an ally for any roll provided what you describe makes sense to the GM.

To OP: Edges are Feat-like widgets that characters gain overtime. They do a wide variety of things especially once you get into a setting book. The current core-rule book has plenty of non-combat options. I think this poster was either referencing two editions ago or last edition but had trouble with the layout of the book (like many people).

Aside: editions are backwards compatible. You have to clarify that with the way a lot of RPGs handle their editions.

Savage Worlds is slightly more combat-centric than D&D, and that's a weird thing to say. It's gotten better, I remember being somewhat surprised at how much more noncombat magic was in SWD, but my memory is still going back to 1e and it is incredibly combat focused.

It has the Contests of Will and whatever those evolved into, it has general 'you can help somebody else do something' rules, it has a relatively small number of noncombat Powers, and that's pretty much it. It doesn't have GURPS's long list of noncombat abilities, or it's exhaustive skill list (IIRC combat skills make up a little over a sixth of the SW skill list, while making up less than a tenth of the GURPS list), it doesn't have detailed social rules, it doesn't have intricate mechanics.

What Savage Worlds does have is combat. Combat options, fast combat, combat with assumed minions, and rather fun combat. This is in no way a bad thing, in fact if what you're looking for is a system can can handle a fight with 100 members in a standard four hour session it's exactly what I would recommend (and why I own the Duluxe Edition).


Honestly, I skipped over it's most important drawback in my post because I forget not everybody knows that: Savage Worlds is very pulpy, and this is by design. It actually feeds into the combat focus quite nicely, Wild Cards can bring down minions easily while still being able to soldier on, but injuries can mount up if they're not careful, and characters can go through several combats without needing to do much more than check ammo and do first aid as long as the enemies aren't too tough.

Kaptin Keen
2019-08-21, 05:42 PM
Ok ... I have only one suggestion: Earthdawn. Dig up a copy of the rules somewhere, and you're set for a couple of years of play, at least. Over time, the rules will annoy you - they truly are ill-conceived - but it's the best world building ever done, and up to a point, the rules work fine.

Particle_Man
2019-08-21, 06:04 PM
I get that, I do. I like rules heavy systems, systems that award diving into the rules. I also like more gritty games. And while I do love my magic, I prefer my magic not as an 'i win' button. I love the 'spheres' system from DDS for instance

You could try Anima: Beyond Fantasy. That is pretty Crunchy.

You could for sci-fi try Eclipse Phase if you want to go deep into the crunch (first edition anyhow, I think they pulled back a bit with 2nd ed.).

Rhedyn
2019-08-21, 06:25 PM
Savage Worlds is slightly more combat-centric than D&D, and that's a weird thing to say. It's gotten better, I remember being somewhat surprised at how much more noncombat magic was in SWD, but my memory is still going back to 1e and it is incredibly combat focused.

It has the Contests of Will and whatever those evolved into, it has general 'you can help somebody else do something' rules, it has a relatively small number of noncombat Powers, and that's pretty much it. It doesn't have GURPS's long list of noncombat abilities, or it's exhaustive skill list (IIRC combat skills make up a little over a sixth of the SW skill list, while making up less than a tenth of the GURPS list), it doesn't have detailed social rules, it doesn't have intricate mechanics.

What Savage Worlds does have is combat. Combat options, fast combat, combat with assumed minions, and rather fun combat. This is in no way a bad thing, in fact if what you're looking for is a system can can handle a fight with 100 members in a standard four hour session it's exactly what I would recommend (and why I own the Duluxe Edition).


Honestly, I skipped over it's most important drawback in my post because I forget not everybody knows that: Savage Worlds is very pulpy, and this is by design. It actually feeds into the combat focus quite nicely, Wild Cards can bring down minions easily while still being able to soldier on, but injuries can mount up if they're not careful, and characters can go through several combats without needing to do much more than check ammo and do first aid as long as the enemies aren't too tough.I have a copy of 1e and hell yeah it's pretty much all combat. SWADE is the edition after SWD and it really fleshed out non-combat far more than even SWD did (which I wouldn't say SWD is more combat focused than D&D, but that book was not an easy read).

But yes, it is pulpy. The mechanics are there but you aren't getting the GURPS tight 3d6 bell curve with tons of nuanced modifiers and hundreds of different skills for basically every activity and how those relate to each other. Savage Worlds skill system is like GURPS with an entirely different die mechanic and every skill being a Wild! skill. SWADE does have 32 skills, 4 arcane skills, 3 martial combat skills, and roughly 5 knowledge skills.

For many people, the pulp isn't a bad thing, but it's a matter of taste.

JAL_1138
2019-08-22, 06:36 AM
If you want “gritty” and “rewards diving into the mechanics,” GURPS. It is exactly those things. Although I’ve heard that the default magic system is kinda borked, but I’ve also heard there’s some alternates that are likely closer to your preference.

It is, however, pretty darn heavy on the DM side of things. Requires a lot of work to piece together exactly what options and level of granularity you want, a lot of policing of players’ builds, and can be time-consuming to build monsters and npcs—but it’s highly modular, extremely flexible, and customizable to get the sort of game you want out of it. Might look into the “Dungeon Fantasy” box set and “Low Tech” supplement in addition to the core rules (GURPS Basic Characters and GURPS Basic Campaigns).

Ken Murikumo
2019-08-22, 08:02 AM
You could try Anima: Beyond Fantasy. That is pretty Crunchy.

I'll second Anima. I had a ton of fun playing that game, though some minor tweaks may be needed to make combat run faster (mainly rolling initiative only once rather than every turn)


If you want something a bit off the beaten path, Dark Heresy is a good one. It's a gritty, future fantasy set in the warhammer 40k universe. Combat is SUPER visceral and one shining point is that all weapons are quite mechanically different rather than being a different flavor of 1d8. I have no idea how magic works, though, as we generally use the game for military guys with guns and chainsaw swords.

SleepyShadow
2019-08-23, 12:19 AM
Deadlands is a blast if you like gritty weird west games with some magic. Might be hard to find the rules these days. I'd also recommend Age of Conan if sword and sorcery is more your thing.

Rhedyn
2019-08-23, 09:05 AM
Deadlands is a blast if you like gritty weird west games with some magic. Might be hard to find the rules these days. I'd also recommend Age of Conan if sword and sorcery is more your thing.PEG still sells Deadlands classic along with their Savage Worlds version.

https://www.peginc.com/store/deadlands-classic-20th-anniversary-edition/