OOTS #294 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

The new comic is finally up.

Now, if I get time tomorrow, I'll do another comic for Friday, but assume that if it's not up before midnight, Friday, that there won't be a new one until Monday.

[Tomada]

thanks anyway giant.

We love your work


EDIT1:And We Yet again see character development! YAY FOR THAT!

EDIT2:Why is Durkon with this "HUH!?!?!?" face and Elan with this "YAY!!!!!!!!!:D" face?

EDIT3: added ;)

[wrath]

Awesome Rich, well worth the wait. Thanks! ;D

[Reivas_Genocai]

Awesome, Thanks alot Rich!
;D ;D

[Monte]

Absolutely Hilarious, I had horrid visions of Miko being under the hood

[Laman_Stahros]

He's free!!!!!!! ;D Way to go, Rich.

[maximus]

Knew Belkar wouldn't serve time... the guy is too cool... :)

Now lets see some nice magic items coming in from Shojo for the whole crew....

[Renmazuo]

Woot. Another great one there Giant.

[c_olsen73]

Hooray for the Belkar! I was really hoping he would come back. As much as we hate him...we mostly love to hate him! HOORAY! ;D

EDIT: YAY First Page!

[Maxymiuk]

Excellent example of being LG and serving your own ends at the same time.

And loved the Belkar reveal. ;D

[Blaznak]

WHOO HOO! Really cool comic! I liked the "Belkar Surprise". Also, I liked Belkar with reach.

Finally, I really like the moral highroad Roy seems to be taking...

Later!

[garylian]

No worries, Giant. You're a busy guy, and we get this for free. Patience should be something more folks here could excercise!

That was a great strip! Go Roy! And, Belkar is BACK!

I wonder how many of the Miko fan club members were praying for it to be her...

Sorry, gang!

[MaddMattG]

Thankee Thankee Thankee!

Roy could have stuck them with that contract. Should have had the spoooooooky lawyers review it before they all signed...

[phillyphil]

I'll punch you in the face Blondie!!!!!


I love this strip




Edit:First Page! Woot!

[Invariel]

So glad to see an actual trial averted... Though, I wish I could see how Miko reacted to hearing that Belkar wouldn't be going to trial for murdering one of her allies... :)

Thanks for the advance warning, Rich, but don't hesitate to take the day off; at least this isn't another weekend cliffhanger. :)

[Sergeantbrother]

Woo hoo, the Order of the Stick is together again and free to go adventuring after Xykon.

God is in His heaven and all is right with the world ;D

[kyrin]

Always better late than never for OoTSie goodness. Nice surprise with Belkar. Woot!

JIM
aka kyrin

[Kahlan]

The Belkster is Back! ;D

I love that Roy ripped up those contracts and gave them the option to join him, without resorting to coercion and trickery. And dressing Belkar up as a paladin.. brilliant ;D

[NoSoupForYou]

Yay! The Azure City subplot is finally over!! ;D

[Annalia]

Oh! Comic! ;D It's really great! Belkar being under a paladin disguise is so ironic. I love it!

[Behold_the_Void]

Belkar's comments at the end amused me muchly.

[Jman8088]

Lovein' it gaint!
feel free to take the weekend off (from some of your posts it looks like you need some time off)

[Winged One]

W00ts! I am so stealing that line for my character in an evil campaign!

[Gunslinger47]

It's good to see the Belkar situation was handled appropriately. As in, handled the way a DM should handle a character who is motivated by irresponsibility.

While PCs should not be allowed to run completely out-of-control, it is wrong to make a character such as Belkar completely unplayable just because you play things too strictly.

[raven-gm]

Hah, "get out of jail free..."

This strip rocks!

[ref]

dang, he escaped :P

You can keep, buy or sell this card until used.

[Indurain]

Nicely done. Great reveal.

Also good to see the direction Roy is taking. Can't wait to see where this leads.

Now Raven-GM get back to beer drinking in Valhalla!

[Kishi]

Ha, nice entrance by Belkar. I'm sure Elan's joy was in the proper story-telling aspect of it all. ;D

[tmacdevitt]

Yeah Roy!! Yeah Belkar!!

Screw the spoilers, what actually unfolds is much better

[Aurora]

Truly enjoyed the strip

Thanks for all you do Rich!

[Serina_Spellbinder]

Woo hoo, the Order of the Stick is together again and free to go adventuring after Xykon.

God is in His heaven and all is right with the world ;D

HECK YEAH!! Now they can go kick some bony lich butt!!

[Silivren]

So glad to see an actual trial averted... Though, I wish I could see how Miko reacted to hearing that Belkar wouldn't be going to trial for murdering one of her allies... :)


Of course, in this case i'm sure the guy's death wasn't permanent. I'm pretty sure an order of paladins knows a cleric or two ;) . In this situation it was really more like assault resulting in particularly expensive medical bills.

edit: sigh, how do I always break the quotes?

[Soul_Selim]

That was hikarious. Bravo, Giant!

[Flak_Razorwill]

Kinky! I always wanted to see the world's tallest midget.

[MelTel]

Bahahaha stilts... *snikers*

[Publius]

It's kinda nice watching Roy grow as a leader as the series progresses. If I were part of an adventuring party, I'd be comfortable with him in charge now.

[mec]

Belkar in a paladin outfit is extremely disturbing. :o

Take that as a compliment! :)

[Peptuck]

Heh. Belkar's comment was so perfect. I'd fully expect him to smack Elan just because he had stilts on.

Now, is it just me, or is Roy edging a little bit along the path toward Neutral Good now? Or maybe its just me, and he's still lawful, but using the law as it is meant to be used.

[evileeyore]

Sigh. Villiany wins again.

I just don't see how Roy can sleep at nigh knowing Belkar is not only unrepentently Evil but has committed cold blooded murder and corpse desecration?

Turn away from Miko and Shojo and the Azure Paladins? Sure. That I can buy. But "save" Belkar, who I'm sure now will consider his every Evil to be Fated and Sanctioned?

Sigh. Villiany wins again.


Now, is it just me, or is Roy edging a little bit along the path toward Neutral Good now? Or maybe its just me, and he's still lawful, but using the law as it is meant to be used.
There is really very little Good in Roy's act. He has freed a murder who will murder agian. I can see an arguement for Lawful, in that Roy is maintaining his loyalties and command of Belkar, but not Good.

[lkanman]

Roy ripping up contracts? How very unusual and chaotic of him

However, I think Roy will be showing even more Chaotic tendencies in the future after meeting with Shojo/Dad.

[Swashbuckler]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

BELKAR IS FREE!!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I loved this episode ... it was absolutely hilarious, kept me in suspense until the second-to-last frame, and moved the story forward. Outstanding!

[Winged One]

I re-read and cracked up again at Durkon's and Elan's faces when Belkar is revealed. ;D

[Zargon]

Great strip! And moves them back to adventure quite a bit quicker than I expected after seeing the last few strips!
And damn! I'm an expert in 2nd edition rules! :D
I liked the RIP Rip rip rip rip part too!
Lots of high rises in that part of town ;)
I guess Halley already said yes (her being #2 in command and with Roy that makes sense)
Is that Miko's cloak? Or just another paladin cloak? Imagine if it was Miko's cloak that Belkar pinched! ;D
oh, yeah - Belkar's back! seems like a dwarf isn't the happiest to hear that, don't know about V (out of frame), but the rest seem pretty happy about that.

[zimri]

Sigh. Villiany wins again.

I just don't see how Roy can sleep at nigh knowing Belkar is not only unrepentently Evil but has committed cold blooded murder and corpse desecration?


What corpse do we have PROOF that he desecrated ?

Miko was about to murder Belkar in Hot Angry blood but I don't see you calling that villany.

[TinSoldier]

Yay! New comic! I guess I can wait 'til Monday if I have to... My number one favorite comic only updates once a week anyways, so I'm used to waiting.

I was hoping it was Miko (or at least Hinjo) under the cloak. But it was a nice reveal for Belkar.

The only other thing I missed was the city tour with Hinjo and Elan. But meh. The story moves on Yay!

Thank you again, Giant. Disclaimer: although I have to wait for On the Origin of PCs until the end of the month, I get to read my Dungeon Crawling Fools book now so I'm not suffering too badly...

Edit: Sigh. I see the alignment debates have already begun.

[Eriol]

Sigh. Villiany wins again.

I just don't see how Roy can sleep at nigh knowing Belkar is not only unrepentently Evil but has committed cold blooded murder and corpse desecration?

Turn away from Miko and Shojo and the Azure Paladins? Sure. That I can buy. But "save" Belkar, who I'm sure now will consider his every Evil to be Fated and Sanctioned?

Sigh. Villiany wins again.

There is really very little Good in Roy's act. He has freed a murder who will murder agian. I can see an arguement for Lawful, in that Roy is maintaining his loyalties and command of Belkar, but not Good.
Ya, I'm pretty much of the same attitude. Belkar will result in hilarity of some degree, but it's definitely not a "good" feeling to be letting a cold-blooded mass-murderer out scot-free.

[Devoured_Dude]

Great comic! Very much worth the wait.

If Roy is against being manipulative like Shojo and his dad, why even mention the contractual obligation before ripping them up?

[PhoeKun]

Crestfallen. That's the best way to describe how I felt after I saw Belkar under that cloak.

I mean, when I think of all the time and energy I invested in the previous story arc (no, really. I lost sleep over some of this), it makes me want to cry. All of that looking at morality and ethics... all of those emotionally tense moments on these boards... all of that so we could end up pretty much right back where we started.

But I forget myself. Great strip, Giant. I think.

[Mattaeu]

hahaha, i love your endings Giant. :)

great strip.

[AnimeHeretic]

Well, Roy was already proved not lawful. Now by aiding the escape of a murderer, we see he's not good either. So we have a choice of N, NE, CN or CE. I think overall Roy and his friends are far more hypocritical and sanctimonious than the Paladins are <goes to change avatar in solidarity :P >

[Rainee_Sue]

It's a comic strip. Belkar is sticking around because he's more amusing than Miko.

And I say as an amateur storyteller myself: nicely done, Giant. :D

[bluewurm]

Well, Roy was already proved not lawful. Now by aiding the escape of a murderer, we see he's not good either. So we have a choice of N, NE, CN or CE. I think overall Roy and his friends are far more hypocritical and sanctimonious than the Paladins are <goes to change avatar in solidarity :P >

I don't agree. Freeing Belkar for the GREATER good (killing Xykon) can easily be seen as the act of a Chaotic Good or even a Neutral Good character.

[Jabrona_Bond]

You know, for about the first 100 threads, I didn't care for Roy all that much. But lately, he's been more leader-y, and I like it! The confidence it took for him to tear up those contracts... he still knew that the gang would come on the mission with him.

And Belkar just keeps things from getting too stale and goody-two-shoes.

[bluewurm]

Oh BTW i was really hoping for Hinjo under that hood, i saw promise in him.

[Gunslinger47]

I just don't see how Roy can sleep at nigh knowing Belkar is not only unrepentently Evil but has committed cold blooded murder and corpse desecration?
To see how Roy sleeps at night, refer to this comic:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=14

[Rostenoc]

Wow, Belkar made his Listen check to hear Elan's "paladin" comment. Must have leveled off of that guard he killed, or maybe role-playing EXP for the whole "Miko-corruption" plot.

[TinSoldier]

Well, Roy was already proved not lawful. Now by aiding the escape of a murderer, we see he's not good either. So we have a choice of N, NE, CN or CE. I think overall Roy and his friends are far more hypocritical and sanctimonious than the Paladins are <goes to change avatar in solidarity :P >Like I said earlier -- let the alignment wars begin. I didn't want to participate, but...

I still think that Roy is LG. Just not LG as it is normally interpreted. He is very loyal to his friends. I think his loyalty extend beyond neutral and into Lawful. We don't see a lot of good other than him telling us he is. But we don't see him doing any evil, either. So I can accept him as LG still.

[Gralamin]

Sigh. Villiany wins again.

I just don't see how Roy can sleep at nigh knowing Belkar is not only unrepentently Evil but has committed cold blooded murder and corpse desecration?

Turn away from Miko and Shojo and the Azure Paladins? Sure. That I can buy. But "save" Belkar, who I'm sure now will consider his every Evil to be Fated and Sanctioned?

Sigh. Villiany wins again.

There is really very little Good in Roy's act. He has freed a murder who will murder agian. I can see an arguement for Lawful, in that Roy is maintaining his loyalties and command of Belkar, but not Good.
I can see it kinda good like this: Belkar can serve a good purpose (defeating xykon) but may die in the process, if he helps with that and dies, the punishment has been served and he has also served good. in that way it is actually good to let him go, but really risky.

Though I personnaly think belkar will live.

Great comic!

[Kanashimi]

oh...my...god....

So, my screen is small and only fits the first three rows of the comic. So I didn't see who was under the cloak until the last moment.

I nearly peed myself laughing so hard at seeing Belkar popping out from the "paladin" disguise.


Funniest Comic EVER!!!

Thank you Giant.

[TinSoldier]

You know, for about the first 100 threads, I didn't care for Roy all that much. But lately, he's been more leader-y, and I like it! The confidence it took for him to tear up those contracts... he still knew that the gang would come on the mission with him.

And Belkar just keeps things from getting too stale and goody-two-shoes.So, he manipulated them? :o :P

[Rethorn]

Well worth the wait. I bet on friday/monday Elan will have a black eye :)

Edit -- Also, I can't wait to see the "Roy isn't Lawful Good, he's Lawful neutral/Neutral Good/Chaotic Evil/whatever people get out of him doing one act that isn't a stereotype of Lawful Good" threads pop up.

[Landon_Fox]

Giant, Nice comic!

To everyone who is mad at Roy for freeing Belkar. This isn't reality. This is a <b><i>roleplaying party</i></b>. Player characters are expected to stick up for each other so that the players can keep playing. It's got nothing to do with alignment and what is expected of a player.

Kay?

[skaven13]

Besides Miko saying that the guard was dead (since she is just looking for an excuse to kill Belkar), has anyone else confirmed it? He could have just been unconscious and stabilized.

Miko: He savagely killed one of the guards.
Guard: I think I might pull through.... (for all the python fans)

Besides, I think Roy freeing Belkar is in Roy's character. Even though Belkar is evil as sin ;) , the order will need him to carry out the quest. Roy is not a paladiin. He does have loyalty to the group (otherwise he would have gutted Elan a while back).

And it's a way to get back at his father and shojo. A little vindication.

Skaven13

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Hmm... looks like our little psychotic's got some ranks in listen.


...or rolled a natural 20.

[Amotis]

YAY! Belkar's back! ;D
That is all. :)

[Bilbo27]

Yes, Belkar is back, thank god it wasn't MIKO. The party is back on the hunt -PRICELESS

great work Giant

Yeah 5th page!! WhOOO HOOOO

[Flink]

Fortunately, in a stick figure comic legs and stilts look exactly the same, so the surprise wasn't ruined. :)

[Nightmarenny]

Great comic! Very much worth the wait.

If Roy is against being manipulative like Shojo and his dad, why even mention the contractual obligation before ripping them up?
Simblism. He was trying to say that he was in no way trying to force them into this at all.

[Xenon]

novelty face punch! :D

[Hyrael]

I love it. Seeing that blue cloak scared the bejesus out of me, and for that, i applaud you.

the only compaint is that Hinjo's encounter with the Dreaded Elan has been left off camera, apparently. Meh, its like the 'noodle incedent' in Cavin and Hobbes, its left to the reader to imagine, and clarification would spoil the fun.

[lunar]

Geez, you'd think that Elan would be a little bit more understanding of dramatic conventions (ripping up contracts, and such), but ah well. Nice reveal! A good transition into their next adventure (and treasure)!

I think that Durkon has the worried face while Elan has the happy face, because Durkon feels worried while Elan feels happy upon seeing Belkar. Really, it only makes sense given their characters and feelings towards Belkar.

[aaronbourque]

I was pretty sure it was Belkar as soon as Durkon and Elan speculated on the identity of the robed figure, but I did do a double take at first.


Besides Miko saying that the guard was dead (since she is just looking for an excuse to kill Belkar), has anyone else confirmed it? He could have just been unconscious and stabilized.
X'd eyes kinda clinches it. The only times that happens is when the guy's dead.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

[Hawkeye]

ooooh, miko is going to be most..... "upset" when she finds out that Belkar is gone without going on trial.

[lunar]

ooooh, miko is going to be most..... "upset" when she finds out that Belkar is gone without going on trial.


I expect that Shojo will keep that hidden from her for a long time.

[TinSoldier]

Miko: He savagely killed one of the guards.
Guard: I think I might pull through.... (for all the python fans)
Guard: I'm not dead yet.
Guard: I think I'm getting better.
Guard: I... I feel like dancing!
(not sure if those are *exact* quotes, but the spirit is there.)


Roy is not a paladiin. He does have loyalty to the group (otherwise he would have gutted Elan a while back).He already did, once. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=153)

[thatwolfguy]

Nice !

[Emericol]

Roy is quite a leader, and might think that he can teach Belker how to be good (I hope he doesn't succede during the comic strips!). My opinion has allways been that The Giant is showing a visualization of a wll-played D&D game, and every party needs a Belker. They may not want one, but trust me, the game is less fun without one (still fun, mind you, just less so).

[Eternal-Darthness]

As evil as Belkar is, if you can bend him to your will in the interest of the common good and he's good enough to kill a goblin ninja in combat, it's best for him to be sent with the Order. I'm guessing the robe was not so much Roy being theatrical but shojo's way of getting him out past some no-doubt very miffed sapphire guard. I don't think Roy should let Belkar get straight off for it, but considering his attitude toward their imprisonment he probably isn't very enthusiastic about punishing Belkar for breaking out and killing someone. He really should, but it may or may not happen. I'm surprised belkar's infamously short patience lasted long enough to see him out of the city slowly walking on stilts. Wow. One drawback to being up there is that he now has to look down at "Beardy McBeerstein"'s bald head, no doubt an unpleasant sight.
Why didn't he just sneak out in a plan involving a giant wooden badger? ;D

[Zargon]

I feel there is going to be quite a discussion if Roy should have let Belkar free!
So I'll toss in a few comments 8)

Regarding Roy, the let Belkar join the party doesn't seem good or lawful, but not evil or chaotic either.

First, most (all?) of the group knows that:
- Belkar is motivated by the desire to kill. That is why is evil. Not the cackling world domination evil.
- that the OOTs group works fine with Belkar and he is a useful party member that isn't as disruptive as some other party members (hi Elan!)
- Belkar killed a guard to escape his cell (an isolation cell no less that he was placed in by trumped up charges). He then went after an enemy of the group, the borderline psychotic paladin. Many comics back, he had stated that as his goal, and the other party members didn't disagree with that goal.
- the rest of the team hasn't read the origins book :D
- Belkar always considered himself as part of the party.
- Roy has always wanted Belkar as part of the group (even tricked him to stay with the group) and has always considered him as an integral part of the group. Roy probably also feels that Belkar is under his responsibility as the leader of the party.
If Roy's motivation to let Belkar out of jail is to have him help fight the evil (i.e. Xykon) to prevent a huge catasrophe, and as Belkar has repeatedly shown his worth as a powerful party member that is familiar with Xykon, that should easily balance out Belkar's transgressions.
As a side note, attempting to match the moralities of our "civilized" world on to a D&D world of middle ages that is magical really should not be done.

[gooddragon1]

...and once more the suns golden honey guilds the land...
and its not even my birthday ;D
Now lets get the equipment compensation

[Frank]

Great comic, Giant. As always.

To Roy's alignment: He is lawful through and through: isn't he helping his teammates whom he's sworn to protect? Since the paladins are run by an apparent True Neutral and have done harm to the party, doesn't it just make sense that he gets Belkar free?

As to Belkar's Listening Ranks: I bet he grabbed a few after defeating Miko (He later woke her up) and gaining a level. I was thinking the same thing.

As for Durkon: If Thor meant them to arrive at Azure City, and Belkar's still around with them afterwards...that means that Belkar is meant to be with the Order of the Stick. I think that accounts, partly, for Durkon's look of surprise which might tilt towards horror.

Or maybe it's just surprise. But I'm just having fun interpreting things, English major I am.

Brilliant, brilliant stuff.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

I don't mean to jump into the the alignment fray, in fact, I mean to avoid it altogether, but I have to join with the voices who dislike seeing Belkar getting off scott free.

From a cohesive story line point of view I understand why Rich did what he did - it avoids a trial, gets the party back together, allows for what I'm sure will be some very, very entertaining one liners on the part of everyone's favorite psychopath - but this resolution is a bit too deus ex machina for me.

There is an understandable amount of condoned killing that occurs in all fantasy role playing settings, but Belkar has committed wanton acts of murder. If integrity is indeed, "doing what is right when no one else is watching," I cannot see the "right" in Belkar's release nor can I logically follow how a party of integrity, especially a LG Durkon, would abide his presence. And frankly, he's a lousy ranger.

That being said, I can't wait to see what the little bastard gets into next... ;-)

[Yahoo_Serious]

Perfect ending to the Belkar/Miko plotline:

-Belkar free and the OotS reunited
-Miko bitter and waiting in the wings as a plot complication
-And to top it off, a joke at the expense of those who hoped against hope that Giant would replace Belkar...

Bravo!

Who da halfling!

[Platinum_Mongoose]

I think Roy is Neutral Good now. Freeing a man from prison and tearing up contracts are very unlawful, but not necessarily evil, acts. He didn't free Belkar the Murderer, he freed Belkar the Member of the Order of the Stick.

[vampeel]

The triumpet return of the great white... halfling.


Yah the chaos continues.

Go Go ranger power.

[Mal_the_Mad]

All is right with the world , the adventuring party is all together in an Inn and starting a quest to kill xykon and protect the gates.

[demonfey]

To all those that wanted Belkar to never be seen again:
It just wouldn't have been OotS anymore without our little homocidal maniac friend. Besides, Miko would never work with the party (too much friction on both sides), and Hinjo is, by Sapphire Guard law, isn't allowed to be actively involved in anything that would involve the portals.
Also, Belkar's back! Long live Belkar!

[Nightmarenny]

Is Roy Neutral Good now?
No! Stop asking!

[Fillbert]

Classic!! Belkar is out, so let Miko pout!!! (No good, holier than thou Paladin who needs to fall from grace >:( )

[Vengeful_Hand]

Belkar is a very valuable member. No one, bar Varsuvius, is so good at killing the ones who need killing. While I find Miko a cretinous piece of trash, I think Belkar is worse. Still, he lends comedic value, and Miko never will. She is the only one who doesn't carry herself like she's in a comic, almost like she doesn't know it.

Seeing the Order of the Stick reunited again and poised for a return to everyone's favorite villains, as Belkar said, "It's like my birthday came early." (six days early, to be exact 8)) Thank you, Giant. I look forward to some high adventure.

...I can't resist. Dun Dun DUN!

[theKOT]

I thought it was Hinjo underneath that cloak, but I did do a double take. Miko? No friggin way. Hinjo? Maybe... But then it was Belkar. If I was supposed to be suprised by something I had predicted, I wasn't. Kinda obvious...


Ya, I'm pretty much of the same attitude. Belkar will result in hilarity of some degree, but it's definitely not a "good" feeling to be letting a cold-blooded mass-murderer out scot-free.
Yeah, even more proof that Roy doesn't care. I also don't see how holding someone to their contracts is even slightly wrong...

I mean, when I think of all the time and energy I invested in the previous story arc (no, really. I lost sleep over some of this), it makes me want to cry. All of that looking at morality and ethics... all of those emotionally tense moments on these boards... all of that so we could end up pretty much right back where we started.
Yeah, Anti-Miko peeps will have a field day with our attitudes after this.

I don't agree. Freeing Belkar for the GREATER good (killing Xykon) can easily be seen as the act of a Chaotic Good or even a Neutral Good character.

Except Belkar isn't needed. He could be replaced.

And Belkar just keeps things from getting too stale and goody-two-shoes.
I look forward to his further Hijinx.

Simblism. He was trying to say that he was in no way trying to force them into this at all.
I'm pretty sure it was for the benefit of us readers.

Roy is quite a leader, and might think that he can teach Belker how to be good (I hope he doesn't succede during the comic strips!).
It is not something he is likely to do. When Belkar doesn't understand ethics, Roy uses, well, coercion.

Still, he lends comedic value, and Miko never will.
"Who removed the tag from this mattress?"
"The proper term is smite evil"
"Actually, I am quite chilly in these northern climates."
Not... funny?



To echo something I said above, Belkar could be replaced without too much hassle and so freeing him doesn't really have to do with the greater good.



Lastly, Belkar's freedom, while morally questionable, sets the stage for what the Giant said is upcoming: a series of humor strips.

Edit: Oh, and thank GOODNESS the trial was skipped! Also, the hues are lighter now to relieve us from that redundant dark blue.
Re-edit: Also, you KNOW it is not Miko because Haley is smiling. The only time Haley would smile at Miko is if she had a couple of arrows in her back.

[Nobodey]

I have to say. As of this comic the whole story has come completely full circle to episode #1.
The only diffrence now is they have leveled once and they actually know what they are getting into, where they didn't the first time.

As for the "is what Roy did evil?" question.. Well, although what Belkar did was very much evil, I think Roy got him out because he needed him to defeat Xykon. They are a team and Roy understands that. I believe that if they were set free but he wasn't going after Xykon, he would have let Belkar stand trial. Purely speculation of course. I just believe good and evil are very subjective concepts.

[Vampire_Boy]

Roy is just a wonderful leader and every action he takes in this strip may not be to the liking of the LG-with-sticks-up-their-arses crowd, what he does is making the group far more cohesive and inspiring even more loyalty in his allies, who now know more than ever that Roy will do everything for each of them.

And let's face it folks... the rest of the OOTs plain simply like Belkar and want to travel with him. Yes, and I know that some just got a heart attack from the thought of Good and Evil characters being friends. :)

[WildBill]

That one was worth the wait. Up until Roy was introducing him as the new party member, I really thought that might be Hinjo and we were still gonna have to wait for resolution of the whole Belkar situation.
And Belkar's line about being called a paladin rocked.
To everyone saying Roy is no longer LG after just a few strips, look at the rules for changing alignment. If he continues to act like this for along time, he will probably change to NG. But a character doesn't wake up and say "I am going to change alignment today."
Also, I would be extremely suprised if Belkar truly has made it this far as an adventurer with no ranks in listen, or spot for that matter, or even survival. Just because he says he doesn't have any doesn't mean he is telling the truth. Lying about it gets him out of having to do things.

[TinSoldier]

Re-edit: Also, you KNOW it is not Miko because Haley is smiling. The only time Haley would smile at Miko is if she had a couple of arrows in her back.Oh. I totally missed that cue. :-[

[theKOT]

Oh. I totally missed that cue. :-[
Me too. I just noticed it on the re-read. hehehe... there's my evil side comin out again!!!

[TinSoldier]

Roy is just a wonderful leader


:-* (( <-- Roy's butt ;D

[MaddMattG]

OK, Belkar is definitely Evil.

But, he was arrested on a charge of which he was not guilty. The penalty for that charge was death. Is killing the guard to escape an Evil Act? I just don't see why folk are upset that Roy sprung him.

Most of us have had our characters arrested, jailed, bound, stripped of possessions at some point, and many a character has killed a guard to escape, some have even gone and killed off the leader of the guard, or the perceived leader (the biggest, baddest one), to ensure a safe retreat and to ensure that he'd be able to spring his party members.

So why are Belkar's actions in the South Evil? If Roy and the rest were willing to travel with Belkar before the arrest by Miko, I just don't see what would change now. Unless they're the kind of folk who would be upset that their buddy got free and smacked around the BTPTT.

[Zargon]

Don't forget that Belkar wants his two favorite team members, Haley and Roy to join the dark side with him ;D
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=171
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=204 although in the last one, Roy was in lust :D
Oh, and I think V is true neutral (I gotta stick that in) so doesn't care much what Belkar did, but he might still be annoyed at Belkar on a personal level (although perhaps the explosive ruins even them off).

[Vampire_Boy]

I just don't see how Roy can sleep at nigh knowing Belkar is not only unrepentently Evil but has committed cold blooded murder and corpse desecration?

I hear your cries of despair and explain: NOT freeing Belkar is the worst thing a leader could have done. Think of what the other group members might think: Okay, Roy probably didn't free Belkar because he was Evil, you know, but... what if *I* accidentally do something wrong in some foreign land and end up in a jail, and then Roy decides that it's too much bother to rescue me and instead recruits someone else? *much anxiety ensues*


If Roy is against being manipulative like Shojo and his dad, why even mention the contractual obligation before ripping them up?

How else would the gang know why he is ripping them up then?

[theKOT]

OK, Belkar is definitely Evil.

But, he was arrested on a charge of which he was not guilty. The penalty for that charge was death. Is killing the guard to escape an Evil Act? I just don't see why folk are upset that Roy sprung him.

Actually, trying to escape, and killing a guard in the process, is in and of itself an offense. Suspects may be legally detained. I am not upset, but I definitely think that it is wrong of Roy to free someone on trial for murder, just because he can.

what if *I* accidentally do something wrong in some foreign land and end up in a jail, and then Roy decides that it's too much bother to rescue me and instead recruits someone else? *much anxiety ensues*

There was nothing accidental about what Belkar did.

Yaknow what? I wish the OOTS had killed Miko. That would have been better than her just being removed.

[Nightmarenny]

I thought it was Hinjo underneath that cloak, but I did do a double take. Miko? No friggin way. Hinjo? Maybe... But then it was Belkar. If I was supposed to be suprised by something I had predicted, I wasn't. Kinda obvious...
Yeah, even more proof that Roy doesn't care. I also don't see how holding someone to their contracts is even slightly wrong...
.The contract was written to the belief that the enemy would be in the castle to which they were headed and then they would kill him. They basicaly were signing up for a single dungeon crawl.

The terms have changed. They are now looking at something that could take their intire life get them soul-killed and other bad things. None of which were in the original agreement. Though Roy could still hold them the the contracts that would be abit-unfair.

[theKOT]

The contract was written to the belief that the enemy would be in the castle to which they were headed and then they would kill him. They basicaly were signing up for a single dungeon crawl.

The terms have changed. They are now looking at something that could take their intire life get them soul-killed and other bad things. None of which were in the original agreement. Though Roy could still hold them the the contracts that would be abit-unfair.

I guess I can see that. Ok. Still, the language in the contracts is pretty clear, and I think holding them to their contracts would be LN.

Anyway, Another sign that it wasn't Miko? Roy didn't have a katana through his chest after ripping up those contracts. "Those were articles of pure Law!!!"

[lunar]

Belkar can't be replaced. Who would they replace him with? No paladin can know about the quest, so that's out. Belkar is an excellent fighter, and I doubt they could just find one to replace him on a whim. Besides, the fewer people who know about this adventure, the better. What if someone else finds about the Snarl? Eventually the info would spread.

[Lady_Orc]

Poor Belkar, being called a paladin. ;D Roy is an excellent leader, and I just wish I could have seen Miko's face upon learning that Belkar was released. The screams of anguish and moral outrage should have been most amusing.

[slowly_insane]

Yay! I finally got to read a comic on Friday (admittedly, it's the Wed. comic, but that's okay), now I can hold out till Tuesday! And can I just say, I was quite happy to see Belkar under that cloak, this means the whole group is back together and we can get on with the adventuring. Thank you Giant!

[theKOT]

Belkar can't be replaced. Who would they replace him with? No paladin can know about the quest, so that's out. Belkar is an excellent fighter, and I doubt they could just find one to replace him on a whim. Besides, the fewer people who know about this adventure, the better. What if someone else finds about the Snarl? Eventually the info would spread.
Good points, but he's about twelfth level, and I'm sure they could find someone around town. Remember, this is a teeming metropolis, and it probably has a lot of adventurers passing through. And this time, Roy COULD offer pay. Yaknow, from Lord Shojo.

[JessmanCA]

I actually cheered in real life, great comic! :D

[EnshiMay]

Further point for consideration for those in the 'Roy is not LG anymore':

How did Roy break the law in releasing Belkar? He didn't lead a raid against the paladins and he didn't break him out of jaill; He got the legal authority (Shojo) in the area to release Belkar under his control. We already know Shojo isn't lawful, him changing the laws he controls to suit his purposes is completely in character.


Besides, hasn't Roy already said something to the effect of 'I don't trust anyone else to keep Belkar under control?' Roy doesn't even effect his good->evil bar with this, he keeps the evil of belkar under some degree of check, that's reasonably good no?


All that said, Yay! no more trials!

[theKOT]

But he doesn't keep Belkar under control. Belkar still manages to kill.

Also, Roy is taking advantage of someone willing to bend the laws. That's kinda chaotic.

[Arachnophile]

Great Comic!!

I absolutely loved Roy's face when he unveiled Belkar.
I didn't know you could put so much expression into stick figures before I started reading this comic.
Thank you Giant.

Arachnophile signing off.

[EnshiMay]

But the only time Belkar's killed (that I can remember) in the comic is specifically when Belkar *wasn't* under Roy's gaze. He's stopped him from murdering Elan, Nale and Thog, and the bandit leaders when he was watching him. Seems like he's done an acceptable job so far

[missrao]

Whew, I was worried Giant was ill. Good stuff, back to the dungeon crawls! (eventually).

[theKOT]

But the only time Belkar's killed (that I can remember) in the comic is specifically when Belkar *wasn't* under Roy's gaze. He's stopped him from murdering Elan, Nale and Thog, and the bandit leaders when he was watching him. Seems like he's done an acceptable job so far
Yeah, yasee, Roy doesn't keep a good enough watch on Belkar to ensure no killing. Barbarians, surrendering Goblins, etc.

Not watching him constitutes not controling him.

[eof]

Well, Roy was already proved not lawful. Now by aiding the escape of a murderer, we see he's not good either. So we have a choice of N, NE, CN or CE.
On the one hand, we see lots of people defending Miko and her attitudes, saying she had perfect legal authority to hunt down the party even if it meant killing them in the process, they were so guilty, she's perfectly LG, and so on. I'm not going to go into that now; I disagree with those sentiments (especially now that it's shown it was all a ruse to get the OOTSers on a mission the paladins obviously can't do themselves), but I can see where those people are coming from. Kinda.

But on the other hand, when Roy is negotiating the release of Belkar for the purpose of completing the mission the OOTSers practically are coerced into doing (and the fact that Roy thinks the mission needs to be done is irrelevant to this fact), with said authority (that also sponsors Miko and gives her her order), he is "aiding escape" (emphasis mine) and clearly TN at best, CE at worst. And no-one seems to have a problem with that sentiment. Am I really the only one who think this attitude is kind of messed up? When Lord Shojo uses his authority to let Miko boss people around it's ok, but when he uses the same authority to arrange Belkar's release for the purpose of increasing the chances of the OOTSers completing said mission (which in a very real way is [b]Lord Shojo's mission), which might save the world, that's not ok? And it's Roy's fault?

[Adghar]

But he doesn't keep Belkar under control. Belkar still manages to kill.

Also, Roy is taking advantage of someone willing to bend the laws. That's kinda chaotic.

Wait, he's taking advantage of Belkar?

[theKOT]

Wait, he's taking advantage of Belkar?
Shojo. Or rather Shojo's disregard for the laws when it means getting something he wants done, done.


On the one hand, we see lots of people defending Miko and her attitudes, saying she had perfect legal authority to hunt down the party even if it meant killing them in the process, they were so guilty, she's perfectly LG, and so on. I'm not going to go into that now; I disagree with those sentiments (especially now that it's shown it was all a ruse to get the OOTSers on a mission the paladins obviously can't do themselves), but I can see where those people are coming from. Kinda.

But on the other hand, when Roy is negotiating the release of Belkar for the purpose of completing the mission the OOTSers practically are coerced into doing (and the fact that Roy thinks the mission needs to be done is irrelevant to this fact), with said authority (that also sponsors Miko and gives her her order), he is "aiding [Belkar's] escape" (emphasis mine) and clearly TN at best, CE at worst. And no-one seems to have a problem with that sentiment. Am I really the only one who think this attitude is kind of messed up? When Lord Shojo uses his authority to let Miko boss people around it's ok, but when he uses the same authority to arrange Belkar's release for the purpose of increasing the chances of the OOTSers completing said mission (which in a very real way is Lord Shojo's mission), which might save the world, that's not ok? And it's Roy's fault?
No one said what Shojo did was good or lawful. People are simply fed up by Roy's "look the other way" attitude with Belkar's atrocities.

Miko was misled. Imangine If you, in one of your D&D adventures, were playing a paladin who was told that a group had weakened the fabric of reality. You were sent out to capture this party, and heard horror stories about their activities along the way. You cast detect evil and see that the leader is STRONGLY evil. You offer a chance to surrender, they say they won't without... Wouldn't you attack?




On another note, Roy is internally inconsistent. He berates Miko, shojo, and his dad for abusing him, but when Belkar is out slitting throats(or suggesting throats be slit) Roy simply says "no" and moves on.

[EnshiMay]

No one said what Shojo did was good or lawful. People are simply fed up by Roy's "look the other way" attitude with Belkar's atrocities.

In the terms of a D&D world, 'atrocities' is not the word for Belkar's actions. Evil, yes. Atrocious? No. Killing goblins, even those who've surrendered, is hardly noteworthy. What were the goblins going to do? go rejoin society and do good little goblin lives? The barbarian lowbies in the guild we needlessly slain, this is evil, but the town and the guildleader didn't care. The guard's the biggest sticking point, but we don't even know what Roy and the rest of OoTS planned to do when they were going to escape, presumably they weren't planning on using lethal means to get out, but thats hard to do.

And do we even know Roy knows anything about the killings that, as we've established, he didn't witness? Roy knows Belkar's stabbity evil, but for all he knows these events didn't transpire. Except for the guard, but who knows what Roy will do to Belkar for that? He got him out of jail because he doesn't trust the judgment of others, not so that Belkar won't face the consequences of his action





Miko was misled. Imangine If you, in one of your D&D adventures, were playing a paladin who was told that a group had weakened the fabric of reality. You were sent out to capture this party, and heard horror stories about their activities along the way. You cast detect evil and see that the leader is STRONGLY evil. You offer a chance to surrender, they say they won't without... Wouldn't you attack?

I'd let them finish talking at least. The only reason to attack before that is so that you may have a slight upperhand in the next conflict. But I've never played the pure hardass lawful good type.


edit for your edit : Roy yells at them for forcing their moral code on him. Roy disagrees with their interpretation of 'Lawful good'. He's annoyed that they feel he should act in their way or they aren't with him.

This is contray to Roy vs Belkar, since Roy knows he's forcing belkar to do things he doesn't want because they directly conflict with his alignment.

In summary : People vs Roy

People:"Our definition of Lawful good is this and yours should be too"
Roy: "Your definition sucks"

Roy vs Belkar

Belkar: "I want to be evil"
Roy: "No evil"

[pita]

Giant, please make the one on the 28th of april this good. I want a birthday present, and my birthday is on a friday this year.

[Zargon]

Imagine walking along in some country and some random person attacks you and drags you off into their own country and throws you into solitary confinment (a dark pit) away from your friends with the knowledge that you will be tried for some crime you didn't commit and most likely be executed. To escape you have to kill the guard (as you are injured and without weapons and don't want the guard to call for reinforcements). Most would not consider that evil.
Belkar however attempted to make Miko fall, for his enjoyment and for revenge, that is mostly just chaotic (as oppose to someone that wanted to make Miko fall so to be a force for evil). The use of blood (although it could well just be crayon) again falls under chaotic more than evil as it is part of Belkar's plan to make Miko fall. It wasn't like he did horrible things to the body just for his own pleasure, he just used whatever tools he had available for his plan.
Very chaotic, somewhat evil. Roy would not be too happy about Belkar on this, but is not a good enough reason to kick Belkar out of the group in the violent magical dangerous world they exist in.

[Kish]

In the terms of a D&D world, 'atrocities' is not the word for Belkar's actions.

Um...

Let's just say I disagree. Completely, totally, and utterly.

(And note, in passing, that you skated by killing the three innocent barbarians awfully quickly. Who cares whether the guild leader cares?)


And do we even know Roy knows anything about the killings that, as we've established, he didn't witness?

Roy is supposed to have a very high Intelligence, and, as a DM, I would look askance at someone who tried to tell me, "My character with an Intelligence of 8 didn't realize that the psychopathic halfling was acting like a psychopath whenever he was alone. Yes, I did see him try to harvest the goblin boy's kidneys, but I just figured he'd restrain himself when I wasn't there to yell at him." Much more important to me personally, though, is establishing that Roy definitely has not done a job of keeping Belkar under control which is anywhere near adequate.

[Firewheels]

Now, if I get time tomorrow, I'll do another comic for Friday, but assume that if it's not up before midnight, Friday, that there won't be a new one until Monday.


Okay, so I'm late to the party. Shoot me.

Giant, it's been said before -- but it bears repeating.

We all (most of us? Okay, well in any case I) know you do this because you enjoy it. You're not getting a thing out of this other than the joy of creation.

It may pain me to have to wait for the comic, but it's a good pain. Take your time.

Now, as to the comic --

Go Roy! Way to grow a set! "I'm going to milk Shojo for every resource I can..." Awesome. Especially when the rest of the OoTS thinks there's an Azure Guardsman (Guardsperson? Guardsbeing?) standing right there.

Giant, the next time you GM at a con, I want in.

[theKOT]

In the terms of a D&D world, 'atrocities' is not the word for Belkar's actions. Evil, yes. Atrocious? No. Killing goblins, even those who've surrendered, is hardly noteworthy. What were the goblins going to do? go rejoin society and do good little goblin lives? The barbarian lowbies in the guild we needlessly slain, this is evil, but the town and the guildleader didn't care. The guard's the biggest sticking point, but we don't even know what Roy and the rest of OoTS planned to do when they were going to escape, presumably they weren't planning on using lethal means to get out, but thats hard to do.

And do we even know Roy knows anything about the killings that, as we've established, he didn't witness? Roy knows Belkar's stabbity evil, but for all he knows these events didn't transpire. Except for the guard, but who knows what Roy will do to Belkar for that? He got him out of jail because he doesn't trust the judgment of others, not so that Belkar won't face the consequences of his action

I meant mostly the blood mural incident(that's what first made me start calling Belkar's actions atrocities) But even so, let us look at some stuff:
Roy has heard Belkar constantly talk of doing terrible things, with no apparant knowledge that they were wrong. The entire party is aware that Belkar "behaves contemptably, laughs at the pain of others" and yet they think it is a good idea to let him go through the town on his own? It is at least gross negligence.

Imagine walking along in some country and some random person attacks you and drags you off into their own country and throws you into solitary confinment (a dark pit) away from your friends with the knowledge that you will be tried for some crime you didn't commit and most likely be executed. To escape you have to kill the guard (as you are injured and without weapons and don't want the guard to call for reinforcements). Most would not consider that evil.
Belkar however attempted to make Miko fall, for his enjoyment and for revenge, that is mostly just chaotic (as oppose to someone that wanted to make Miko fall so to be a force for evil). The use of blood (although it could well just be crayon) again falls under chaotic more than evil as it is part of Belkar's plan to make Miko fall. It wasn't like he did horrible things to the body just for his own pleasure, he just used whatever tools he had available for his plan.
Very chaotic, somewhat evil. Roy would not be too happy about Belkar on this, but is not a good enough reason to kick Belkar out of the group in the violent magical dangerous world they exist in.
Belkar did commit the crime. They were in no country, but a nuetral unowned plot of land. Also, he was completely aware of what he was being tried for, and agreed to go along. He also used the blood for means of pleasure in getting Miko to fall.

[eof]

Miko was misled. Imangine If you, in one of your D&D adventures, were playing a paladin who was told that a group had weakened the fabric of reality. You were sent out to capture this party, and heard horror stories about their activities along the way. You cast detect evil and see that the leader is STRONGLY evil. You offer a chance to surrender, they say they won't without... Wouldn't you attack?
Miko was initially mislead. Sure, I agree with that. I disagree with her behavior, but that's just me, and I don't have time to go into that now. One day I might write a long post on it, and then everyone can have fun fun fun simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with everything I say. ;D

But to answer your question briefly: No, I wouldn't. My view on the paladin, simply, is not a mere "SMIIIIIIIITE THE EVIL DOER!" In addition, if only the leader of the eeevil party detects as evil (however strongly so) and several other ones don't, that should be clue enough right there that the situation isn't quite as clear-cut as it has sounded like. And if I'm confident in my abilities to take them out (which Miko seemingly was), I'd certainly let them finish their sentence before attacking. Any additional info and insight about their intentions is only good for me.


On another note, Roy is internally inconsistent. He berates Miko, shojo, and his dad for abusing him, but when Belkar is out slitting throats(or suggesting throats be slit) Roy simply says "no" and moves on.
They have different alignments and/or backgrounds, and can be held to different standards. Does Roy wish Belkar was less CE? Very probably. But he works with what he's got, within the frames of what he can expect of Belkar. Surely you can't fault him for that. (If Roy should associate with Belkar at all is a different issue, and I don't have time to discuss that right now, although I'm sure you can find someone who will. ;) )

[Brasswatchman]

Aww, fantastic. Roy tearing up the contracts makes me happy. So now everyone's following him for real. Except maybe Belkar. Awesome.

I'm actually a little surprised that Roy decided to bail out Belkar this time around. I mean, murder - even in a universe with resurrection spells, that's pretty bad... I mean, Celia wasn't going to defend Belkar for similar reasons. But, hey, I guess loyalty wins out in the end.

Hey, Giant - I'm a little surprised you didn't let us worry about who was under the hood for a day.

[Kish]

Does Roy wish Belkar was less CE? Very probably.
"I d-don't want to seem confrontational, but could you be a little less, um, evil?"

[theKOT]

Miko was initially mislead. Sure, I agree with that. I disagree with her behavior, but that's just me, and I don't have time to go into that now. One day I might write a long post on it, and then everyone can have fun fun fun simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with everything I say. ;D

But to answer your question briefly: No, I wouldn't. My view on the paladin, simply, is not a mere "SMIIIIIIIITE THE EVIL DOER!" In addition, if only the leader of the eeevil party detects as evil (however strongly so) and several other ones don't, that should be clue enough right there that the situation isn't quite as clear-cut as it has sounded like. And if I'm confident in my abilities to take them out (which Miko seemingly was), I'd certainly let them finish their sentence before attacking. Any additional info and insight about their intentions is only good for me.

They have different alignments and/or backgrounds, and can be held to different standards. Does Roy wish Belkar was less CE? Very probably. But he works with what he's got, within the frames of what he can expect of Belkar. Surely you can't fault him for that. (If Roy should associate with Belkar at all is a different issue, and I don't have time to discuss that right now, although I'm sure you can find someone who will. ;) )
Miko had gathered as much information as she thought necessary, and I'll admit she was a little hasty, but she thought that she had enough information to execute if they wouldn't come quietly. Maybe she thought they were going to say "...without a little fight." Miko might have been afraid that she would be tricked soon, and it was important that she not die in order that justice might be carried out. Miko has attitude and behavioral problems, but as we've seen, the Sapphire Guard, in an act of gross negligence similar to Roy's ignoring of Belkar, simply dump her off on whoever might be under arrest next.


Are you saying that your alignment can justify your actions? That is a dangerous line of thought.

"I d-don't want to seem confrontational, but could you be a little less, um, evil?"
But Roy is more like:
"If you ever turn on us, we will attack you. I don't have the time to explain ethics to you and thus better the world. I'd much rather march along in silence."

[EscherEnigma]

Eh, I think people overthink this a bit too much.

But, since I LIKE overthinking things, I see no problem with this, and will thus contribute.

Has it occured to you people (that are upset at the release of Belkar) that Roy may not have asked for an unconditional release? "Released into my custody" would have been fairly reasonable, especially with the nature of the mission. Perhaps more so, since if Belkar DOES help save the world he has, intentionally or not, redeemed himself a little. And, from a bit of a meta perspective, if this WERE a game it woudl work too. A DM that thought Belkar's player was getting a bit too out of hand might use this as a 'warning' thing, saying "You can keep playing this character, but be careful, you're toeing the line."

Besides, can anyone say that they REALLY thought that after so many strips that have developed and invested interest in Belkar that he would REALLY be left to languish in jail? He's too interesting to not have continued use, just like I doubt we've seen the last of Miko, Nale, Red-Cloak, and others.

But aside that, Roy isn't a being of pure law and good. He's not a paladin, so he's allowed to do occasional evil, he's not a monk, so he's allowed to do occasional chaos. He is Lawful Good, so he mostly does lawful and good deeds. As Celia Said, (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=282)
Our alignments are not rigid and unyielding codes of conduct ... they are goals for ourselves. Standards we hope in our hearts that we can achieve. Failing them does not invalidate the choice we made to attempt to live within the bounds of that alignment; it just means we need to try that much harder next time.
So is Roy's alignment changing because he did something that wasn't lawful or good, and may have been chaotic and (a little bit) evil? No. It just means that once he realizes that it probably wasn't the smartest thing to do (which I'm sure Belkar is going to make him conclude sooner or later) he'll get back in gear. Just like he did after his revelation in the woods after he decided to leave Elan to the bandits.

So did Roy make a mistake? Quite probably. Would most adventurers have done the same in a similar situation? I imagine so. In many cases, team loyalty goes beyond alignment, or at least thats what I've found in games of mixed alignment.

Good comic.

[Vampire_Boy]

Poor Belkar, being called a paladin. ;D Roy is an excellent leader, and I just wish I could have seen Miko's face upon learning that Belkar was released. The screams of anguish and moral outrage should have been most amusing.

Yeah, now we will only have to do with the screams of anguish and moral outrage in this thread, plenty of that already. ;) Would have been more amusing coming from Miko, I agree. :)

[theKOT]

EE, you are right, But I gotta nitpick here. Roy continually ignores Belkar's actions, and I think this might be a straw on the camel's back situation. If I were DMing, and Roy acted similarly, I'd at least issue a warning.

However, Roy isn't really in danger of falling to neutral on the Good-Evil axis as he is falling to Chaotic. Let's face it, his recent experiences have left him disenchanted with the law and disregarding its principles. I think he will be CG soon unless he does something especially lawful.

[WTFWWD]

Hooray for the Giant and his excellent comics!

That being said, the little guy in the big guy costume always make me laugh. Belker definatly has to do that again (Belker could'nae done it! The murderer was 9 feet tall!).

[Solara]

I think he will be CG soon unless he does something especially lawful.

The fact that he took this mission at all, in spite of being manipulated, nearly killed, and generally screwed around seems pretty lawful enough for me...lawful enough to make up for choosing to treat his friends as his friends, not as his contractually-bound subordinates, anyway.

Anyway, loved the comic, and I'm thrilled to see the whole team back together and ready to go after Xykon again, though I admit some trepidation upon seeing Belkar and knowing the @$%@^# alignment debates and general whining and complaining it would cause on the forums. I'm thinking I should renew my resolution to not come here anymore, reading the typical angry, argumentative posts leech the enjoyment from the comic. :(

But I admit I'm curious about the blue cloak and stilts. I know part of it was The Giant toying with the readers, but I'm thinking the IC reason was to sneak Belkar past the paladins. Wonder when Miko's going to find out...

Edit: And I almost didn't click to the "milk Shojo for every resource" line. Cool! They're getting to be fairly high level adventurers, about time they get some nifty new toys. :)

[Lianae]

Yay! Belkar!

To tell the truth I'd actually forgotten about him!

[theKOT]

The fact that he took this mission at all, in spite of being manipulated, nearly killed, and generally screwed around seems pretty lawful enough for me...lawful enough to make up for choosing to treat his friends as his friends, not as his contractually-bound subordinates, anyway.

No, taking the mission is Good, but not extremely. He is out to save the world, but the world happens to include him. There is nothing lawful about wanting to save the world; you could be quite chaotic and still make the same choice that Roy made, because, yaknow, it's the right thing to do. By a long shot. Only a CE would just sit by and let the world be destroyed.

I wonder if Durkon will have any problem with this Belkar thing-he seems to be rather rattled by his appearance.

[EnshiMay]

Take Belkar's actions out of the OotS and pretend he's (exactly as presented, the evil and the forced good) done what was presented in the comic. He doesn't strike me as 'villian' level evil in D&D, thus I don't really consider him atrociously evil. (Aka, I wouldn't feel Belkar was appropriate to use as the primary villain, thus, he's not that bad as D&D inhabitants go)


If a paladin goes to a society where the laws are interpted differently, and is accused of breaking these laws, is the paladin no longer Lawful good? Roy came from a different society and upbringing, he mantains that system of law. This system includes not forcing his alignment on others and allows for the guidance of belkar rather than a strict no tolerance policy.


and I ultimately think Durkon is shocked that belkar was released under any circumstances, and is probably the only member of OotS who has thought through to Miko's reaction.

[Vargtass]

I have no problem with Roy maintaining LG. He freed Belkar out of friendship, in a not-evil fashion (possibly even lawful - the negotiation), which is a good deed. You should stick out for your friends. This is an altruistic act with respect to Belkar. It doesn't matter if Belkar himself is evil or not, Roy respects their (perhaps only unidirectional) friendship and loyalty. I don't see why Roy should be obliged to think on the greater good in every action (wieghing in possible, but not certain, innocent deaths by Belkar's hand in the future; Roy will certainly make efforts to prevent this, as he has done before). He does this for some acts (going after Xykon) and acts good on the microscale (altruistic to friends, e.g. saving Belkar, eventually going after Elan) for some. True, he has had moral dilemmas, but this is to be expected within a campaign, and I wouldn't say that Roy's imaginary player has taken these things lightly.

As for ripping up the contracts, this is probably not an unlawful act. Under the terms of these contracts, Roy probably had the right to cancel them. The actual act of ripping, rather than just stating them null and void, is a physical act and neither chaotic, neutral, or lawful, alignmentwise. After all, a lawful character is not expected to march to a beat any more than a chaotic character must sing out of tune. You could use those exact patterns to emphasize your alignment, but you don't have too.

Also, bringing up the contracts and what they say before ripping them is not manipulative by Roy in my book, even though I understand that it can be interpreted by others (e.g. team members) as a way of planting gratitious feelings in them in order to make them join. However, Roy makes this move out of fairness. He truly does not want a team member thats not fully commited and joined by their own respectve volition.

On the other hand, I have no problem with Miko's interpretation of LG alignment either. It is a different interpretation from Roy's, but both hold water. Sure, she's been tested to the limit (by Belkar), and although this was a rather extraordinary setup (from my experience of playing, anyway) it still constituted a great story element, both for Belkar and for Miko (if she were a PC).

As somebody already said, the story comes full circle, but I find that the stakes are higher, the commitment deeper, the personalities have evolved, the plot thickened, and the cast of characters have expanded. So, rather than moving in an orbit, the story is on a beneficial spiral, ascending new heights.

Looking forward to future adventures (my own session last night was cancelled... :'( )

[Adeptus]

Go Roy! Go Belkar!

Man some people here have gotten their panties in a bind over the silly D&D alignment things.

"Shock, horror, but Belkar is a murderer!" Pretty much any D&D character is a multiple murderer. It's a violent, brutal world, but you've got to stay true to your mates. Belkar is more of a loveable scamp in the context.

[eof]

Miko had gathered as much information as she thought necessary, and I'll admit she was a little hasty, but she thought that she had enough information to execute if they wouldn't come quietly. Maybe she thought they were going to say "...without a little fight."
Or maybe she didn't "think" at all. But I don't want to get into that right now.


Miko might have been afraid that she would be tricked soon, and it was important that she not die in order that justice might be carried out.
Ah, the delusional pre-emptive strike justification. "It doesn't matter what the actual circumstances are, only what I believe in my little head." Sorry, I don't agree.


Miko has attitude and behavioral problems, but as we've seen, the Sapphire Guard, in an act of gross negligence similar to Roy's ignoring of Belkar, simply dump her off on whoever might be under arrest next.
I'd say Sapphire Guard is more guilty on this count than Roy, because Roy actively strives to keep Belkar close by and at least to some extent under control, while the Sapphire Guard just lets Miko loose.


Are you saying that your alignment can justify your actions? That is a dangerous line of thought.
My character's alignment justifies his actions? Yes. (Or maybe the other way around.) My character's alignment makes his actions socially (or otherwise) acceptible? No, not necessarily.

Face facts: Belkar is CE. If he didn't act in a CE manner, something would be amiss. This is true on all levels: Roy is a fighter, he fights; person X is a merchant, he deals in merchandise; and so on. You don't step up to a fighter and expect him to function as a merchant, and in the same manner you don't expect the CE character to act in a non-CE manner. Roy knows that Belkar is CE, and expects CE behavior from him, and tries to deal with this fact as well as he can. Clearly he can't expect Belkar to act exactly as (for instance) Miko. They are different persons, and must be dealt with in different manners, which is what I meant by saying they can be held to different standards. I think most people that have issues with Belkar don't actually have issues with Belkar; they have issues with CE (as a "player" character, at least). Belkar acts exactly the way he's supposed to. If he acted exactly the same as (for instance) Lord Shojo, it would make sense to deal with him by the same standards as Lord Shojo, but he doesn't. Roy understands this, and "channels" Belkar in the way that is the most effective. Do you really suppose it would be useful for him to do otherwise? Roy is not being inconsistent, he's being sensible and (unlike Miko) don't try to apply the same standards to everyone.

[Sebastian]

Roy should really write a book "how to be a paladin (without taking levels in the class)"

(And use Miko as a "don't do" example. ;) :P )

[Cobrateen2000]

Yay, the Giant is not sick or anything!

And the comic was great!

People, you are overthinking alignment. It is just a description, like red hair or blue eyes. And don't we often say that people with red hair have tempers? Should we really judge people so much on their allignment? Also, remember that Miko is LG and yet many people would agree she is not a nice person. In this one campaign, I am a CN Druid. Our team's methods may be a little differant (to get some papers from this guys house, we had the barbarian cause an expensive distraction in the front hall while the rouge snuck in the back window and got the papers we needed to save the world), but our goals are pure and good, even if none of us are technically Good. And we try not to murder everyone. Usually. We are good people, but sometimes we get a little carried away.

[zimri]

I meant mostly the blood mural incident(that's what first made me start calling Belkar's actions atrocities) But even so, let us look at some stuff:
Roy has heard Belkar constantly talk of doing terrible things, with no apparant knowledge that they were wrong. The entire party is aware that Belkar "behaves contemptably, laughs at the pain of others" and yet they think it is a good idea to let him go through the town on his own? It is at least gross negligence.
Belkar did commit the crime. They were in no country, but a nuetral unowned plot of land. Also, he was completely aware of what he was being tried for, and agreed to go along. He also used the blood for means of pleasure in getting Miko to fall.

KOT please fill me in because apparently I missed where either the giant, belkar, or anyone in the comic confirmed it was actually blood and not red crayon.

[Torias]

Ok, Roy is simply THE MAN in this strip.

The expression on his face in the first RIP panel... it's absolutely incredible how much nuance you get into glorified stick figures....

same with the Haley bits... her facial expressions have become her primary means of communication... and it all works so wonderfully...

excellent work :)

try not to get burnt out (I'd rather the comic be active for a longer period, than for you to wreck yourself by going to inadvisable lengths to hit the thrice weekly update schedule).

[xaos_master]

I have to say I have followed this comic from the beginning and am very pleased with the character development side of things. Especially Roy. He has grown into a true leader. Hell I would follow him in a heartbeat. Elan has grown from an annoying moron into a 'simple perspective' Forest Gump type of person who shows us that sometimes the right path is right in front of us. We learn that Belkar is not just a 1-dimensional homicidal maniac, but a clever and devious mind who maintains his loyalties despite his alignment. Haley is more than just a greedy thief. She is an emotional being and does what she does to serve a cause. And even Durkon becomes a noble dwarf who follows what his heart tells him is right even if his friends don't always agree.

I have to say that this is one of the best comic strips I have ever read. It is good on so many levels. On the surface it is light and humorous, but deeper within it is filled with as much emotion and drama as even the great epics like Star Wars or The Godfather...

5 stars and 2 thumbs up.

[Oorlof]

*fires up the Imperial March for sheer awesomeness*

Belkar is free, yay! And still a nasty, hatefull little murderer. Good for him.

*does dance of joy*

Now, to the armory! (Will Roy finally get his dad's sword reforged? Or will he pass on that cause it'd mean dad being able to appear to him again?)

[Lasombra]

woooo! ;D awsome comic :)

notice how the main people to be happy at belkar being back in the team are actually Roy and Elan, the two people who belkar's seriously picked on in the past? :P

hehehe would have been fun if belkar had actually had to enlist in the order of the Saphire Guard and take levels in paladin though, i imagine he would have felt Dirty

[Kish]

Take Belkar's actions out of the OotS and pretend he's (exactly as presented, the evil and the forced good) done what was presented in the comic.

He would be in prison for about fifty consecutive life sentences--if he happened to be caught in a place that didn't have the death penalty. He would also be the focus of a case to bring the death penalty there.

Oh, you mean in D&D still, just not in a comic.


He doesn't strike me as 'villian' level evil in D&D, thus I don't really consider him atrociously evil. (Aka, I wouldn't feel Belkar was appropriate to use as the primary villain, thus, he's not that bad as D&D inhabitants go)

He'd be hard to use as a primary villain. Why? Let's see.

He doesn't have any minions. If he did, he would kill them because he never plans ahead. (Kind of like Xykon, only more so.)

He never plans ahead, therefore he couldn't have a villainous scheme for the heroes to thwart--unless it had huge gaping comic holes in it (like his plan to make Miko fall, which incidentally would have resulted in his death).

He'd get bored waiting at the bottom of a dungeon, light the place on fire, and probably kill himself.

This is kind of fun, but I'm running out of examples. My point is: Would Belkar make a good villain for a campaign? No, he wouldn't. Is a single one of the reasons why he wouldn't anything that in any way relates to, "He's not evil enough"? No, it's not. Therefore, does this make Belkar any less evil than, say, Xykon? No, it doesn't.


If a paladin goes to a society where the laws are interpted differently, and is accused of breaking these laws,

Lawful means ordered, not "obeys the law."

[The Glitter Ninja]

Great comic! Giant, you really can get some people's knickers in a twist. You know I love you for that, you big lug.

I love the panel with the contract bits fluttering around like confetti.

The reveal was great, and I love how Elan was happy about it, probably because if there's one thing he knows, it's drama. And that was a dramatic reveal.

I am excited that we're getting back to Xykon and friends. As far as we know, he's still having an evilgasm.

[Cirin]

Now, is it just me, or is Roy edging a little bit along the path toward Neutral Good now? Or maybe its just me, and he's still lawful, but using the law as it is meant to be used.The moment I read the comic, my thoughts were that it was a very NG, or maybe CG act: Freeing somebody from their contracts and asking them do do something not because of the law, but because it's the right thing to do. This is Roy's coming of age as a leader and the maturation of the OotS.

Now, I think Roy will stay LG in the long term, as it was said, he's not a Paladin and not a Monk, so he's got no alignment restrictions, and he can perform the occasional chaotic or evil action and still be LG, but he's learned a lot about the difference between law and good from dealing with Miko and Shojo. Remember Celia's speech on alignments.

As for freeing Belkar, he was released by the orders of the person who was imprisoning him, so it was a lawful release, just one that was as manipulated and contrived as the original charges against them. If Roy is milking Shojo for everything he can get, a Raise Dead for the guard was probably part of the deal, and officially Belkar has paid restitution and made amends, been released into Roy's custody, and is officially on probation, which as far as Roy and Belkar are concerned is "Get out of Jail Free" since it was nothing out of their pocket and Roy already sees it as his job to keep an eye on Belkar. All this could be done quietly, maybe semi-secretly to avoid enraging Miko (hence wearing the Blue Cloak of a Sapphire Guardsman). Shojo has shown he's quite willing to be flexible with his legal powers as the ruler of Azure City and commander of the Sapphire Guard. For something like murdering a guard, Shojo probably has much more power to pass summary judgment and sentence than something like the case with the gates.

Belkar isn't a nice guy, but he is a very effective killing machine, and when pointed in the general direction of the bad guys he's quite useful. He's doing more good for the world pointed at Xylon's minions and slaughtering goblins by the dozen than rotting away in Shojo's cells.

[Antina]

All thumbs up!
GREAT doing Mr. Giant!

Even to the last little detail (Belkar getting every word of the whispered talking of Durkon and Elan while Roy was holding his big LOUD speech)

Very very nice "ending" to a big plot line!
Best strip ever! :)

YAY!!!

[fluffybunny]

Yaaay!

Roy: "I'm going to milk Shojo for every resource I can to do it."

Alright, free resources! Haley's going to be so happy!
Go Roy!

Btw, please drop the alignment nitpicking! We love Belkar _because_ he is a psychotic killing machine with "deep seated emotional problems". Every group needs one of these <insert wicked grin>

[Purplet]

While most probably Belkar is evil, I don't find the killing of the paladin an evil action at all. He was KIDNAPPED since they had really no authority (it was not their jurisdiction) and so it was self defense (he wanted to escape). The really evil action is the revenge on Miko, not the killing of the guard to escape. ::)

[infiniteviking]

YAY ROY!! Meant to post that for the last strip, but it'll do for this one as well. Unlike his father, he makes no bones about milking a dramatic moment. True leader material.

I still see him as Lawful Good. Ripping up the contracts doesn't have to be a chaotic act -- they were his contracts, legal documents that could be legally nullified. As for his freeing Belkar, I imagine he'd feel guilty leaving the psychotic little creep under anyone else's control. And it's not as though Shojo did such a bang-up job restraining him in the first place. (That said, I'm looking forward to some strong words between Roy and Belkar when the subject next comes up.)

(Slight grammar note: there seems to be some punctuation missing from Roy's third speech bubble -- between 'help' and 'you're'.)

*laughing my head off at Belkar on stilts* I, too, had horrid images of Miko being under the hood. Completely illogical, but paladin trauma does that to you. *g*

Take care of yourself, Giant, and thanks for the great storytelling!

[Chronomancer]

Awesome! ;D
I really like to see the OOTS back on the road with all it's members.

So... it can wait till monday, wednesday or whenever, as long as the story continues someday.
I've seen Squidi go down and it was not funny to have the storyline stop from one day to the other, to many ends left untied.
Just do everything you have to do to keep this comic running!

Heck, I even wait months to see a great storyline continue. I waited over 2 years for "A song of Ice and Fire 4", others should learn to do the same. Wait, patiently. Always remember: "It's done when it's done" ;)

[battleburn]

So true. I haven't read "A song of ice and fire." But myself I'm waiting for, the presumably final part of, "The wheel of Time", number 12.
And people, we have the message board if we get bored of waiting.

BTW, that was one hell of a negotiation. Elan's tour is done. They're in an inn. Belkar is allready free. How much time has past??

So I just want to say, Good job Giant.

[Holy_Knight]

I hear your cries of despair and explain: NOT freeing Belkar is the worst thing a leader could have done. Think of what the other group members might think: Okay, Roy probably didn't free Belkar because he was Evil, you know, but... what if *I* accidentally do something wrong in some foreign land and end up in a jail, and then Roy decides that it's too much bother to rescue me and instead recruits someone else? *much anxiety ensues*


What Belkar did was not accidental at all--he murdered the guard on purpose. I'm glad to see Belkar back, but unless Roy is very confused, the "what would the others think if I don't" thing can't have been his reason for for freeing Belkar.



I guess I can see that. Ok. Still, the language in the contracts is pretty clear, and I think holding them to their contracts would be LN.

Roy's reason for ripping them up wasn't because it would have been wrong of him to enforce them, it's because he wants conciously and visibly to reject anything at all similar to law-based coercion or manipulation. By ripping up the contracts he is eesentially saying: "I refuse to be my father or Lord Shojo. I hope you all will come with me, but whether you do or not is your choice."


Has it occured to you people (that are upset at the release of Belkar) that Roy may not have asked for an unconditional release? "Released into my custody" would have been fairly reasonable, especially with the nature of the mission.
That did occur to me, and I think it's pretty likely that there are some (perhaps pretty severe) conditions attached to his release. If there weren't--if it was just "He's free if he helps you investigate the gates"--then I'd have to strongly agree with those criticizing Roy.



Or maybe she didn't "think" at all. But I don't want to get into that right now.

Ah, the delusional pre-emptive strike justification. "It doesn't matter what the actual circumstances are, only what I believe in my little head." Sorry, I don't agree.
You're being way too harsh on Miko here. It's not just what she "believed in her little head", it's what she had good reason to believe. She had good evidence that the Order was both evil and dangerous, and it's only by a weird fluke that she came up with a "false positive" as it were. Keep in mind this comment from #203:

Miko: "Wait--are you serious? That is your actual explanation? "My evil twin did it"?

And she's right--even though it happens to be true, it's a pretty ridiculous explanation. So let's review:

1. Shojo says The Order is dangerous criminals who have threatened the very fabric of reality.

2. Multiple townsfolk tell Miko that someone matching the description of a member of The Order committed evils on them.

3. Miko uses "Detect Evil" on the leader of the Order, and he registers as strongly evil.

Now, all of this is misleading, but what are the reasons why?

#1 is false because Shojo was lying. Miko would have had no reason at all to think Shojo wasn't telling the truth.
#2 is false because it was really someone's evil twin.
#3 was false because Roy just happened to be wearing a possession of someone whose own great evil *somehow* rubbed off on it.

The fact that Miko's evidence was flawed has nothing to do with whether she was being reasonable in believing it, which she clearly was.

Now, given that she has good reason to believe she is by herself confronting a party of 6 dangerous, evil people, the initial warning was more than enough. She had every reason to think that waiting to hear what comes after "we're not surrendering" would be nothing more than a foolish invitation to let any one of the 6 spring a surprise attack, enact a plan, overwhelm her with numbers, or otherwise outmaneuver and kill her.



Face facts: Belkar is CE. If he didn't act in a CE manner, something would be amiss. This is true on all levels: Roy is a fighter, he fights; person X is a merchant, he deals in merchandise; and so on. You don't step up to a fighter and expect him to function as a merchant, and in the same manner you don't expect the CE character to act in a non-CE manner. Roy knows that Belkar is CE, and expects CE behavior from him, and tries to deal with this fact as well as he can. Clearly he can't expect Belkar to act exactly as (for instance) Miko. They are different persons, and must be dealt with in different manners, which is what I meant by saying they can be held to different standards. I think most people that have issues with Belkar don't actually have issues with Belkar; they have issues with CE (as a "player" character, at least). Belkar acts exactly the way he's supposed to. If he acted exactly the same as (for instance) Lord Shojo, it would make sense to deal with him by the same standards as Lord Shojo, but he doesn't. Roy understands this, and "channels" Belkar in the way that is the most effective. Do you really suppose it would be useful for him to do otherwise? Roy is not being inconsistent, he's being sensible and (unlike Miko) don't try to apply the same standards to everyone.
This is circular. People have the alignment they do because they typically commit certain types of actions, they don't commit to some alignment and then find themselves incapable of acting otherwise. If Belkar started doing non-CE things, all it would mean was that his alignment was changing. The only way that is "amiss" is if you assume that there's some reason why Belkar must remain chaotic evil, and there isn't.

So while you're right that there must be different methods of dealing with different people, that doesn't mean that they should be held to different standards. Roy is indeed being inconsistent if he judges the same behavior differently just because it was done by people of differing alignments.


While most probably Belkar is evil, I don't find the killing of the paladin an evil action at all. He was KIDNAPPED since they had really no authority (it was not their jurisdiction) and so it was self defense (he wanted to escape). The really evil action is the revenge on Miko, not the killing of the guard to escape. ::)
Whether the Sapphire Guard had jurisdiction or not doesn't change the fact that he did murder a guard who had nothing at all to do with his having been imprisoned. "Wanting to escape" doesn't make that killing an act of self-defense--the guard hadn't attacked him at all, let alone with anything resembling lethal force. Add to all that the fact that Belkar could very likely have simply knocked the guard out and put him in the pit instead of killing him, and yes, you have a great example of an evil act.

And after all that... some people are saying that the sequence with Hinjo got skipped--but do we know that for sure? It seems to me that this comic could take place before that was scheduled to happen, so we might still see it. We'll find out soon, I suppose...

[Alfryd]

The new comic is finally up.
Bravo!

Now, if I get time tomorrow, I'll do another comic for Friday, but assume that if it's not up before midnight, Friday, that there won't be a new one until Monday.
Well, thank for the heads-up, Rich... oh, wait, there wasn't any.


Big long post.

*laughing my head off at Belkar on stilts* I, too, had horrid images of Miko being under the hood. Completely illogical, but paladin trauma does that to you. *g*

I wonder how many of the Miko fan club members were praying for it to be her...
It seemed unlikely. Oh, there's trouble brewing there, no doubt about it.

Though, I wish I could see how Miko reacted to hearing that Belkar wouldn't be going to trial for murdering one of her allies...

The screams of anguish and moral outrage should have been most amusing.
That's no laughing matter, one way or another.
Miko Miyazaki- kills all known life. Dead.

I expect that Shojo will keep that hidden from her for a long time.
Short of immediately sending her on another protracted mission, how? She's probably hoping to bring popcorn to the courtroom. Can you say 'time bomb'?

It just wouldn't have been OotS anymore without our little homocidal maniac friend. Besides, Miko would never work with the party (too much friction on both sides)...
Probably true.



I just don't see how Roy can sleep at nigh knowing Belkar is not only unrepentently Evil but has committed cold blooded murder and corpse desecration?.. There is really very little Good in Roy's act. He has freed a murder who will murder agian. I can see an arguement for Lawful, in that Roy is maintaining his loyalties and command of Belkar, but not Good.
I would more or less agree here.

Freeing Belkar for the GREATER good (killing Xykon) can easily be seen as the act of a Chaotic Good or even a Neutral Good character.
You forget that Belkar has been almost as much of a hindrance as a help to the party. As opposed to Elan, who has been distinctly more of a hindrance than a help.

People are simply fed up by Roy's "look the other way" attitude with Belkar's atrocities.
Correct.

He got him out of jail because he doesn't trust the judgment of others, not so that Belkar won't face the consequences of his action..
Roy was apparently as frightened by the prospect of Belkar being released into the wider world as he was by the prospect of his execution. "I owe that to everyone else, everywhere." This can only imply he knows that Belkar can and will kill again, left to his own devices. What judgement could he realistically get that he doesn't deserve, issues of loyalty aside?

You should stick out for your friends... I don't see why Roy should be obliged to think on the greater good in every action.
Because he's not an imbecile.

Roy is not being inconsistent, he's being sensible and (unlike Miko) don't try to apply the same standards to everyone.
So, he's being consistently inconsistent? Can you say 'oxymoron'?

When Lord Shojo uses his authority... to arrange Belkar's release... that's not ok? And it's Roy's fault?
It's Roy's fault for insisting on it. Shojo is choosing the lesser of two evils- Belkar being released, or leaving the Gates and Xykon unchecked.



Roy was in lust...
Probably to a large extent. His comments to Elan might signify being smitten, however. And I have some news- that takes a minimum of 6 months to wear off completely.

Hey, Giant - I'm a little surprised you didn't let us worry about who was under the hood for a day.
That would come under the heading of 'cruel and unusual punishment.'



I disagree with those sentiments (especially now that it's shown it was all a ruse to get the OOTSers on a mission the paladins obviously can't do themselves)...
Deserving of reprimand, but Miko didn't know this.

I'd let them finish talking at least. The only reason to attack before that is so that you may have a slight upperhand in the next conflict.
More than slight, given the enemy spellcaster may have, say, Disintegrate readied. Miko is certainly a little quicker to apply katana negotiations than I'd be entirely comfortable with, but she hasn't survived to her current level by taking unnecesary risks.

(it was not their jurisdiction)...
Divine jurisdiction is theoretically universal.

To escape you have to kill the guard...
As covered before, the level difference would have made subdual damage almost trivial.

The use of blood (although it could well just be crayon) again falls under chaotic more than evil as it is part of Belkar's plan to make Miko fall.
No, that would be... an evil means to an evil end. And let's not go into that 'crayon' thing. The body was moved, the red was a different shade, his items were confiscated and the RoJ was uncomfortable enough.

My view on the paladin, simply, is not a mere "SMIIIIIIIITE THE EVIL DOER!"
No. 4 in the Miko FRC.

"It doesn't matter what the actual circumstances are, only what I believe in my little head."
Because Miko, in addition to her thorough investigations, is omniscient, and automatically cogniscant of all the pertinant facts of a case.

My character's alignment justifies his actions? Yes.
No, it explains them. There is a difference.

[Vampire_Boy]

What Belkar did was not accidental at all--he murdered the guard on purpose. I'm glad to see Belkar back, but unless Roy is very confused, the "what would the others think if I don't" thing can't have been his reason for for freeing Belkar.

It's not the only reason, for sure, but it might have played its part. Letting the Sapphire Guard to execute Belkar would have been a blow for the party's morale, that's for sure. Add the whole 'loyalty' and 'being buddies' in there, and then it becomes obvious that any decent person would have done exactly the same in Roy's place.

[Delgarde]

Roy ripping up contracts? How very unusual and chaotic of him

How is that chaotic? He's simply choosing to call on friendship to bind the party together, rather than threat of legal action. It's not really an alignment-related act at all, although if you insist on seeing it that way, consider it a case of Roy invoking something higher than mere human law.

[Grunjon]

First off: Giant...WELL DONE! I cracked up big time! Well played...especially playing that "get out of jail free" card. Hilarious!!


Okay, now on to my next point (activate MAXIMUM VERBOSITY) (a Zork reference, if anyone else remembers Zork or other Infocom games):

Golly, you folks are TRULY overthinking this. I have to go back to when I was a kid, and I'd be watching a movie or TV show with my dad, and the character would do something you truly couldn't figure out the motivation for, or the plot would jump from HERE to THERE for no reason that you could think of. I'd turn to my dad and ask, "why did that happen?" His reply was always the same: "It's in the script."

Belkar was freed without trial to accompany Roy and the Order because...it's in the script. Belkar's part of the team Giant designed for these quests. No matter what, the Order was going to be back together again for the next round of dungeon crawlin'.

I'll be GLAD to get back to the dungeon crawlin' for a bit, and more straightforward plots and humor. I need a rest from all this complicated storytelling...whew! ;)

Of course, it's about time to check in with the LG and see how their latest recruitment drive has ended up, and see what course Nale intends to take to intersect with the OotS at some point in the future. Then it's back to bone-head and his red-cloaked minion to see the results of his evilgasm and what plot they're after next. Then Shojo and Roy's dad can point the Order in the right direction, and let the dungeon-crawlin' begin! Again! Yay!


For my final point today (MAX VERBOSITY at, well, MAX): I want to address something said a couple of pages back to the Giant:

We all (most of us? Okay, well in any case I) know you do this because you enjoy it. You're not getting a thing out of this other than the joy of creation.
First of all, I'll re-state as I have in the past that it's okay with me if Giant is late on these, and I'm personally not paying a thing for this webcomic so I have nothing to complain about. I'm all right with it, capeesh (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=capeesh)?

Having said that, I'll remind folks that it's not like Giant gets "nothing" out of posting the OotS. The free gig of posting the webcomic has certainly led to opportunities for Rich to be paid, as he stated himself in his 10/1/05 news:

Giant in the Playground Games has entered into a strategic alliance with Paizo Publishing, LLC, publishers of Dragon and Dungeon, to publish and distribute The Order of the Stick books and other products. You can read the full details here. Then, you can go and preorder either book from them here. Yes, I said EITHER book; On the Origin of PCs is now on sale over the internet for the first time...All book orders will be handled exclusively through the very professional, very capable www.paizo.com.

Oh, and OOTS? Will be in Dragon Magazine starting in December.
So he's got the paying gig with Dragon, the OotS books he puts together to be sold (so far 2, one a compilation of these free webcomics and one an entirely original book, with one more compilation stated to be in-the-works already and probably another original non-compilation book after that [see 1/2/06 news] ), plus the CafePress t-shirts/mugs, etc.

On top of that, in the 1/2/06 news he stated "we have over 100,000 readers every new strip"...I'm sure many of us come here for the actual Game Designer stuff Rich does (surely that takes quite a chunk of Rich's time away from drawing OotS).

Plus he's supposed to be working on changing this site, too (again, see 1/2/06 news):

I've hinted at this a bit on the message boards, but the beginning of 2006 will herald major changes for this website. We'll start with a complete site overhaul, including new visuals and a greatly-improved interface. And yes, an RSS feed is part of that plan. The new year will also feature the return of new non-OOTS content to Giant in the Playground. Many of you have written me to ask when there will ever be new gaming articles on this site, and the answer is, "very, very soon". But that's not all; in an effort to make GiantITP.com your one-stop site for gamer entertainment, GITP is going to feature a new section devoted to fantasy fiction, in the form of short stories and ongoing serialized novellas. You'll be able to get weekly fixes of fantasy writing right here, starting when the redesign goes live.

"But wait," I can hear you saying, "You can barely handle updating OOTS three times a week, you're now going to write a new gaming article every Tuesday and a new story every Thursday?" Well, not exactly. See, in order to expand GITP from being my personal site to its own company, I'll be bringing in a hand-selected group of new authors and game designers to help contribute material. Some are names you'll know from WOTC products or Dragon Magazine, some are long-time friends of the site (*coughAmbercough*), some are the last people you'd ever expect to write for my website. Don't worry, though, I'll be editing all articles personally, as well as contributing many myself when my time allows, so expect at least the same level of quality as the existing articles.

No hard-and-fast date on these changes yet, but all indicators point to February 1st or so. There will be another announcement when I'm sure. And hopefully, we can weed out some of the technical problems that are slowing the message board down at the same time.
Lest anyone think I'm wandering off-topic here, let me point out that Rich does earn a living from what he does here, that he's a very busy guy in fact trying to do quite a bit, that it's very difficult and stressful where he's at I'll bet, but yet he has arranged things so that anyone who doesn't want to pay a dime for reading these OotS webcomics that the whole thing seems to currently teeter on doesn't have to pay that dime...to you, it's all free, free, FREE! So the on-topic point here is that Rich is gonna be late sometimes with the comic, and I've just given you a boatload of reminders as to why that is. So he can earn a living, and go on doing this without, oh, starving to death. :)

So if he's late, he's late. It's not costing us anything. Support the man by buying his books and t-shirts, and show your appreciate for the Order!

And no, I'm not getting any kickbacks from the Giant for this rant...I just understand his position, that's all.

[Delgarde]

I also don't see how holding someone to their contracts is even slightly wrong...

It's not - but equally, it's not particularly right either. The entire party, Roy included, considered the contracts to have been completed - hence some of the subsequent discussions of Roy's leadership. His actions now make that belief official, releasing them from their obligation to follow him, and allowing them to choose for themselves whether to continue working with him.

Now personally, I consider that a Good act - allowing them to choose rather than using Law to compel them. I'm not saying the latter would be evil, but it's definitely on the side of law-for-domination rather than law-for-justice.

[Publius]

I don't really see how Roy ripping up the contracts would be a chaotic act. Given that he's the one who proposed the contract, and the one who benefits from it, it is completely within his right to declare them null and void (albeit in a very dramatic manner).

If anything, shunning tactics which he despises can be considered a good act, which is perfectly in keeping with his alignment.

[Lady_Orc]

That's no laughing matter, one way or another.
Miko Miyazaki- kills all known life. Dead.


But of course it is a laughing matter. Having tremendous fun as we speak, just thinking about it. ;D

And somehow, I don't think Miko will be wiping out the Order any time soon. If she ever comes to fight them again, I think the dice will not be loaded in her favor, because the railroading has been taken care of.

[Delgarde]

No, taking the mission is Good, but not extremely. He is out to save the world, but the world happens to include him. There is nothing lawful about wanting to save the world; you could be quite chaotic and still make the same choice that Roy made, because, yaknow, it's the right thing to do.

Not entirely. While a character of any alignment could indeed make the same choice, it's the motivation that matters. In Roy's case, it's a sense of duty that drives him, an innate compulsion to do the right thing. That, to me, is an LG alignment - an attitude of good, motivated by law.

[Lightman]

Belkar lives!

[Delgarde]

On releasing Belkar, well - what else could they do? Given the utter perversion of justice that saw him imprisoned in the first place, he's certainly entitled to reparations from Shojo and the Sapphire Guard for how he's been treated. However evil and individual he is, he's been treated appallingly, and forgiving him for crimes committed while escaping is the absolute minimum they could do.

Note that I'm not justifying his actions, merely arguing that the injustice against him is at least as bad and that continuing to punish him would only compound the matter.

[Electric_Monkey]

And was dressed pretty much exactly as Miko. I wonder if there's significance to that beyond the fact that the costume would be available and is good for a shock reveal?

[Serina_Spellbinder]

Giant, Nice comic!

To everyone who is mad at Roy for freeing Belkar. This isn't reality. This is a <b><i>roleplaying party</i></b>. Player characters are expected to stick up for each other so that the players can keep playing. It's got nothing to do with alignment and what is expected of a player.

Kay?

You get the award for Post of the Week, IMHO. Well said, I agree with you 100%.

[Serina_Spellbinder]

It's a comic strip. Belkar is sticking around because he's more amusing than Miko.



Abso-frackin'-lutely!! Big blow to all the Miko fanboys everywhere. I love it. ;D

[eof]

You're being way too harsh on Miko here. It's not just what she "believed in her little head", it's what she had good reason to believe.
Darn right I'm being harsh on Miko. I really don't feel like discussing her, because there's plenty enough pro- and con- material about her as it is. There are things I could say, but I think I'll pass, thanks. "Good reason" and "good evidence" are a matter of opinion, and I wouldn't play a paladin like Miko. Let's leave it at that. (You can consider me "conceding the point" if it makes you happier.)


So while you're right that there must be different methods of dealing with different people, that doesn't mean that they should be held to different standards. Roy is indeed being inconsistent if he judges the same behavior differently just because it was done by people of differing alignments.
Ok, sorry. I'm not an native english speaker, and what I meant was not "judge them by a different standard" but "assume they act in a standard way." I thought I made that clear in the text you quoted, but I guess not. Point being, Roy is going to act differently with Belkar than (for instance) Lord Shojo. It was claimed that Roy is inconsistant for not dealing with them in the same way. Do you really think that it would help if Roy dealt with Belkar in the same way he deals with (for instance) Lord Shojo?

If you want to call that kind of behavior inconsistant, go ahead. I call it sensible. And once again, let me point out that how Roy feels about Belkar's "shortcomings" vs. Roy's father's "shortcomings" is a different issue, and not what I'm talking about. I believe Roy disapproves of them both. Chewing out Belkar is not going to make things better, though, because Belkar is who he is, but Roy's father just might have enough morals to care.


So, he's being consistently inconsistent? Can you say 'oxymoron'?
Ok, so he's consistent in adjusting to the situation and/or the person he is dealing with, and dealing with different situations/persons thus makes him act inconsistently on the whole. Happier? (OTOH, he has consistently dealt the same way with Belkar for... well, always?)


It's Roy's fault for insisting on it. Shojo is choosing the lesser of two evils- Belkar being released, or leaving the Gates and Xykon unchecked.
Oh yes. And it was good and proper of Shojo to drag the OOTSers to Azure City in chains, almost getting them killed in the process.


Because Miko, in addition to her thorough investigations, is omniscient, and automatically cogniscant of all the pertinant facts of a case.
No, because Miko should realize that she isn't omniscient and act accordingly.

I also find it amusing that it's ok that Miko obviously takes everyone else's word at face value, even to the point of releasing two bandits, but pretty much assumes that the OOTSers are lying.

Consider the option that Miko had run into Elan's neutral twin ;D and his merry men:

"ORDER OF THE STICK! You have been charged with crimes for which the only possible sentence is death."

"Wha tha...?"

"Surrender yourselves, or have that sentence carried out immediately. The choice is yours!"

"Whoa, whoa, whoa, what is this all about?"

"See?? I told you, Bob! I told you something was going to happen."

"Shut up, Billy. And you, buddy, we're not the whatever you called us. We're not surrendering without a little-"

"As you wish... liar."

Slash slash slash slash slash...

[Holy_Knight]

It's not the only reason, for sure, but it might have played its part. Letting the Sapphire Guard to execute Belkar would have been a blow for the party's morale, that's for sure.

Not necessarily. There's plenty of evidence that the rest of the party dislikes him in many ways, and they might think he deserves his punishment. Plus, even if their morale would be lowered, they might decide it was for the best.



Add the whole 'loyalty' and 'being buddies' in there, and then it becomes obvious that any decent person would have done exactly the same in Roy's place.
Not only is this not obvious, it's pretty clearly false. Any decent person would want a murderer to be imprisoned. The fact that it's someone you know or are buddies with doesn't change that fact, other than making it more sad for you personally.



Darn right I'm being harsh on Miko. I really don't feel like discussing her, because there's plenty enough pro- and con- material about her as it is. There are things I could say, but I think I'll pass, thanks. "Good reason" and "good evidence" are a matter of opinion, and I wouldn't play a paladin like Miko. Let's leave it at that. (You can consider me "conceding the point" if it makes you happier.)
No, I won't consider you as conceding the point, because that would be inaccurate and unfair of me. I will, however, say two things: First, I wouldn't play a paladin like Miko either, so we actually agree on that. Second, about "good evidence"--while there is an extent to which that is just opinion, there is also an extent to which there is standard there. Courts make use of the idea of the "reasonable person"--what someone would rationally conclude or do given properly used sensory and mental faculties, assessment of available evidence, and so on. I think you'll also find that we frequently make use of this idea in everyday life. My claim was that by this sort of standard, Miko was justified in her reaction to the Order of the Stick. (We can debate that further or not, if you wish, but I did want to clarify what I meant.)



Ok, sorry. I'm not an native english speaker, and what I meant was not "judge them by a different standard" but "assume they act in a standard way." I thought I made that clear in the text you quoted, but I guess not. Point being, Roy is going to act differently with Belkar than (for instance) Lord Shojo. It was claimed that Roy is inconsistant for not dealing with them in the same way. Do you really think that it would help if Roy dealt with Belkar in the same way he deals with (for instance) Lord Shojo?
First, let me say that I would not have guessed you aren't a native English speaker if you hadn't said so, so you can take that as a compliment. :)

Anyway, I took the charge of inconsistency to be that Roy judged the same behavior to be pretty bad in one case, but not a big deal in the other, which would be inconsistent. However, I do agree with you that he must interact with Belkar differently than he would with Shojo or someone else, even in light of the same ends. Perhaps the question is whether Roy is actually judging the cases differently just because of his feelings toward the people involved, or whether it just appears that way because of differences in how he deals with them.



Consider the option that Miko had run into Elan's neutral twin ;D and his merry men:

"ORDER OF THE STICK! You have been charged with crimes for which the only possible sentence is death."

"Wha tha...?"

"Surrender yourselves, or have that sentence carried out immediately. The choice is yours!"

"Whoa, whoa, whoa, what is this all about?"

"See?? I told you, Bob! I told you something was going to happen."

"Shut up, Billy. And you, buddy, we're not the whatever you called us. We're not surrendering without a little-"

"As you wish... liar."

Slash slash slash slash slash...
One crucial thing that is missing here is that--assuming Elan's neutral twin did not just happen to be carrying a crown that had absorbed an evil aura--the party would not have registered evil when Miko used her Detect Evil on them. That alone is enough to cast doubt that Miko would have been as quick to attack.

[Murky_Pool]

Hells teeth, Mikojack. Mind you, it's an entertaining discussion so not all bad.

Anyway

I liked Roy's monopoly joke, I love it when the characters allude to a part of our world.

I personally would have been well pleased with myself if I'd been leader and thought of that way to get Belkar out of jail. Assuming good characters would travel with a known Evil person then there's no real problem with their defending him, they've made some adjustment in their heads to trust him to some extent.

[evileeyore]

Giant, Nice comic!

To everyone who is mad at Roy for freeing Belkar. This isn't reality. This is a <b><i>roleplaying party</i></b>. Player characters are expected to stick up for each other so that the players can keep playing. It's got nothing to do with alignment and what is expected of a player.

Kay?
I would be just as upset "in game" should my character truly be on the "Good" path. Heck even if my character was Nuetral or Evil. Belkar has shown very little party loyalty, he only does what he's told because he fears Roy or is tricked by Haley. Even then he still manages to occasonally do the opposite of what is expected of a loyal party member.

If it were my group and we were Good, we'd leave in jail.
If it were my group and were Nuetral we might free him, but mostly just to use him and hopefully jail or kill him when his usefulness ended.
If it were my group and we were Evil we'd free him and kill at the first opportunity to make sure he wouldn't escape and hunt us down for revenge.

But then we also don't cotton to the whole "But you have to let my character in the group, no matter how disruptive or fun destroying, I'm a player!" nonesense. You can't play a productive, fun to have, useful character. You are out. Heck we've had our Elans and we've loved 'em. Belkars do not get tolerated long. Neither btw do Mikos, unless the party all has the same predominant attitudes.

[Marius]

Great strip!

[Galandris]

And was dressed pretty much exactly as Miko. I wonder if there's significance to that beyond the fact that the costume would be available and is good for a shock reveal?

Well, even if Roy had "all the cards in hands" and could ask Shojo for a "non guilty" outcome of Belkar's trial, I doubt a certain Pally we know would have accepted it outright. She's already distressed by her fight against Belkar, it's wiser to keep Belkar's release undisclosed to the rest of the Sapphire Guard, to prevent hurting their feelings.

[DomaDoma]

It's a comic strip. Belkar is sticking around because he's more amusing than Miko.

And I say as an amateur storyteller myself: nicely done, Giant. :D

Thank you. Somebody remembers that OotS is supposed to be funny.

[Serraco]

[slightly offtopic]



Abso-frackin'-lutely!! Big blow to all the Miko fanboys everywhere. I love it. ;D

You used frack?!? Wow, does that related to my inner Battlestar Galactica geek. <3
[/slightly offtopic]

OH NOES! Belkar's loose! Miko ain't gonna be happy about it, but we already know she's pissed at the Order anyway. Guess it's something else she'll add on for vengance.

Truthfully, I was thinkin' "Great... they have to deal with Miko AGAIN." Good job on messing with my head, Rich. Good job.

[Dark_Stalion]

Edit: I shpould check to see if there is a new comic before posting.

[Galandris]

Shouldn't V's sentence be "I believe" and not "I belive"?

Nitpicking, but when that comic is available in print, I want it to be truely perfect ;)

[Vampire_Boy]

Not necessarily. There's plenty of evidence that the rest of the party dislikes him in many ways

Since you seem to be one of them 'evidence' fanatics, I might as well invite you to present it while you're at it.

[SabreGuy]

OK, so why do I now have the A-Team theme song stuck in my head after reading #294?

It's like they sprung Face out of the mental institution all over again! w00t, go Belkar!

[Supagoof]

I love this comic. ;D

Belkar, freed before a trial could commence that would (most likely) kill him. Though who knows, if Roy's father was acting as the Being of Pure Law and Good, who knows about Belkar's fate?

Don't read me wrong, I love Belkar! I would just like to take a moment to remind everyone no matter which side of the fence you were one with him and Miko, just because the Giant's story arc leads this way doesn't give the justification to berate the other character's results.

example. Miko should be .... because of ...
or Belkar should be..... because .....

There's a million of different should's and could's that would be appropriate, but in the order of entertainment may never cease to pass.

I'm going to step off the soapbox now before I get into who stories are presented and the balance a writer needs to find to captivate and cultivate and audience, and of course if one wanted to look into that mystification farther they should study shakespeare.

Okay off.

Love Roy, ripping up the contracts just to prove he doesn't need them for the group to be in unity, awesome. The Giant has proven that what unites the OOTS is the goal of defending the greater good.

My two cents. Thanks for your time.

[hatsinger]

Great Strip.

Finally we'll see the Order back to it's normal enviroment, without Miko dividing them (It's good to see durkon back to the "right" side too).

P.s.: It's amazing that nobody pointed that "Roy tore up the contract, so he isn't lawful anymore".

[Max_Sinister]

That went pretty fast. I somehow had expected that they wouldn't start their new quest before #300, and that Miko would accompany them.

And I'm quite surprised that Roy does so much for Belkar. Belkar may be a group member, but he's done so many evil things... doesn't Roy fear for his alignment? Did Belkar do something for him so he feels obliged? D*mn, I want to get On the Origin of PCs!

Also note that Haley didn't say a thing...

[KaosDevice]

Horray! The contract confetti was a nice touch. Glad to see things truckin' along.

[kouhoutek]

Um, tearing up a contract is not unlawful.

*Breaking* a contract is. But letting someone out of a contract because you think it is a good idea, that is just fine.

For example, I just refinanced my house. My first lender essentially tore up my contract to make monthly payments, because they got something they wanted more...money. Nothing unlawful there.

Roy is doing the same thing. He tore up the contracts, partly because he is a swell guy, but partly because he has a better chance of defeating Xykon with loyal followers than indentured servants...half the party is Chaotic and would have no trouble walking out if a contract was all that bound them. :)


I think Roy is Neutral Good now. Freeing a man from prison and tearing up contracts are very unlawful, but not necessarily evil, acts. He didn't free Belkar the Murderer, he freed Belkar the Member of the Order of the Stick.

[Starla]

Does this mean that Roy will be developing into a True Leader? That was a very big step he took just now. I see many good story developments coming out this idea. I like it.

edit: sp

[Vampire_Boy]

P.s.: It's amazing that nobody pointed that "Roy tore up the contract, so he isn't lawful anymore".

Oh, someone did that already... ::)

[Wrecan]

Since you seem to be one of them 'evidence' fanatics, I might as well invite you to present it while you're at it.

Evidence that other members of OOTS don't like Belkar.

Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=263) does not want belkar sprung from jail and refers to him as psychotic (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=125).
Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=285) thinks Belkar is a "horrible loathesome supremely selfish creature who behaves contempibly, laughs at the pain of others, has no manners whatsoever and whose mental acuity could be compared unfavorably to that of a table. in te strip where Elan calls him psychotic, V references "hoping" to have to kill Belkar.

We have never seen Durkon say more than two words to Belkar, so no evidence either way for that one, although Durkon doesn't seem particularly happy to see belkar. We have no evidence about Haley either way.

[Starbuck_II]

I love this comic. ;D

Belkar, freed before a trial could commence that would (most likely) kill him. Though who knows, if Roy's father was acting as the Being of Pure Law and Good, who knows about Belkar's fate?

I am so happy that Belkar is okay. I was fearing for him. Belkar for President!


Love Roy, ripping up the contracts just to prove he doesn't need them for the group to be in unity, awesome. The Giant has proven that what unites the OOTS is the goal of defending the greater good.

My two cents. Thanks for your time.
I'll take those cents: I can use the money. ;D

Yeah, Iliked the contract part too. I was scared that the blue cloak might be Miko after all.

[chrispy85]

long time lurker, first time poster, etc...

this was a great strip. hooray for surprise endings!

i love that the sign in front of the inn says "Inn." That's just funny.

[EladrinStarmist]

yaaaaaaaaay belkar! I dont' like him much, but dammit he's the funniest character in the group (imo) and I've missed him. GREAT comic today, Giant! *hug*

[luilupino]

Roy really grew up as a leader...
Im now sure that The order of the stick is a real team, made of friends. Not employees or anything like that
Great job Giant !!!

[eof]

Second, about "good evidence"--while there is an extent to which that is just opinion, there is also an extent to which there is standard there. Courts make use of the idea of the "reasonable person"--what someone would rationally conclude or do given properly used sensory and mental faculties, assessment of available evidence, and so on. I think you'll also find that we frequently make use of this idea in everyday life. My claim was that by this sort of standard, Miko was justified in her reaction to the Order of the Stick.
I understand this, and agree with the method, but I disagree that she was justified. When meeting OOTS for the first time, Miko could either have gathered more information before attacking, or not. She chose not to. My opinion is that if you are just about to take an action that is pretty much irreversible (extrapolating from the real world, killing someone is, and even in D&D True Resurrection costs 25,000 GP and also requires a 17th level cleric to cast it) you better be utterly, beyond any doubt certain that you do the right thing, and IF there's some kind of evidence that you rather effortlessly can acquire (such as, I don't know, give the OOTSers a possiblility to actually parley before attacking, which isn't the same as "surrender AND die" ultimatum), you should do so BEFORE you take said action. This is OPINION. Your personal threshold may vary.

I kinda think that Miko was far closer to falling, at least temporarily, back then than when she was about to kill Belkar. She was very close to killing Roy, and I don't care HOW SURE she was that he was evil; being wrong is not always an excuse. Is it understandable that she made the mistake? Yes. Is it acceptable? No. "Sorry" just ain't gonna cut it with me when you just killed an innocent. YMMV.

In addition, Miko got orders to bring them back for trial (for obvious reasons). She agreed to do so "if it is possible." I don't think she tried that hard in that initial battle, but rather SHE initiated hostilities and did her best to kill Roy. IF they actually had been really "guilty" (of destroying the gate on purpose in order to weaken the fabric of the universe), they would probably have been evil. All of them. She still had her orders. That one of them detected as evil was no excuse, and in fact shouldn't have come as a surprise to her. She was sent there as an arresting officer, not as a judge, jury and executioner.

And as I said, I find it interesting that Miko assumed everyone EXCEPT the OOTSers to be trustworthy, even after they proved themselves (with the exception of Belkar, who at that point was unknown) to be non-evil.


One crucial thing that is missing here is that--assuming Elan's neutral twin did not just happen to be carrying a crown that had absorbed an evil aura--the party would not have registered evil when Miko used her Detect Evil on them. That alone is enough to cast doubt that Miko would have been as quick to attack.
A neutral party would be more likely to include (at least) one evil character than a good one, and OOTS (a good party) have one patently evil character. To assume that said theoretical party would include an evil character doesn't seem too far fetched to me. Also keep in mind that you don't have to be Belkar-evil in order to register as evil--a rogue that typically tries to get "a little more" than his fair share of the treasure should be enough. Point being, unless Miko got a PERFECT description of the OOTSers (and we don't really know, either way) she could have assaulted ANY party that fit the description, especially one that contained at least one evil member. Oops.

Ugh. Enough about Miko. Reply if you want to, but I'll pass on a second portion, please.

[sniffles]

Another awesome comic with a terrific final frame! It was worth the wait.

:D

[Vampire_Boy]

Elan does not want belkar sprung from jail and refers to him as psychotic.

At the same time, there is more than one example of a friendly camaraderie between Elan and Belkar, especially when they team up to pull pranks on Roy. To me that's a prime example of them being good buddies.


Vaarsuvius[/url] thinks Belkar is a "horrible loathesome supremely selfish creature who behaves contempibly, laughs at the pain of others, has no manners whatsoever and whose mental acuity could be compared unfavorably to that of a table."

I see nothing here that would suggest that V doesn't like him, especially considering how V says she still prefers him to Miko.


in te strip where Elan calls him psychotic, V references "hoping" to have to kill Belkar.

Not hoping, she just says that she expected Belkar to be unreasonable and that they would have to kill him.


although Durkon doesn't seem particularly happy to see belkar.

Subjective interpretation, like all your points, really. I could say that being a LG, Durkon feels a little bit puzzled about how Belkar was able to avoid the trial, but nothing more than that.


We have no evidence about Haley either way.

I seem to remember that in one of the earliest strips when the group split up, she picked Belkar over Elan - I could interpret that if she loathed Belkar, she would not have picked him.

[theKOT]

A neutral party would be more likely to include (at least) one evil character than a good one, and OOTS (a good party) have one patently evil character. To assume that said theoretical party would include an evil character doesn't seem too far fetched to me. Also keep in mind that you don't have to be Belkar-evil in order to register as evil--a rogue that typically tries to get "a little more" than his fair share of the treasure should be enough. Point being, unless Miko got a PERFECT description of the OOTSers (and we don't really know, either way) she could have assaulted ANY party that fit the description, especially one that contained at least one evil member. Oops.
Except the OOTS didn't deny being the OOTS. See, Miko knew this much:
A. A party called the OOTS had destroyed a gate.
B. Someone who matched Elan's description had done many terrible things in town.
C. the apparant leader of the group detected strongly evil.

So right now she figures that she is looking at a party with at least two evil members who destroyed the Red Mountain gate(They don't correct her when she calls them the OOTS) is standing in front of her telling her that they won't surrender. She also knows that one of the party's members has disappeared(Belkar is off camera for a long time) and that if she doesn't act now, she will be flanked before the fight has even begun.



At the same time, there is more than one example of a friendly camaraderie between Elan and Belkar, especially when they team up to pull pranks on Roy. To me that's a prime example of them being good buddies.


I see nothing here that would suggest that V doesn't like him, especially considering how V says she still prefers him to Miko.



Not hoping, she just says that she expected Belkar to be unreasonable and that they would have to kill him.


Subjective interpretation, like all your points, really. I could say that being a LG, Durkon feels a little bit puzzled about how Belkar was able to avoid the trial, but nothing more than that.


I seem to remember that in one of the earliest strips when the group split up, she picked Belkar over Elan - I could interpret that if she loathed Belkar, she would not have picked him.
Inverse!

The Giant said she picked who she did because he wrote the fourth strip before he made the second strip, so those particular parties had to be grouped together somehow.

Except Durkon has shocked eyes, not puzzled.

Ze was hoping, but not because of spite for Belkar as much as XP needs.

The fact that V says he is "Horrible, loathesome" creature? V just hates Miko more.

But the last instance of something like that came over a hundred strips ago.



After all that.... I still say the party likes Belkar, and Haley is smiling, even though she knows it is Belkar(she stayed behind), so I do think that the party, besides Durkon, will be happy, especially since Elan smiled.

[Lucky]

:o :o :o Belkar just make a successful listen check!!!!!!

Whoa!!

That was a great comic Giant! Roy ripping up the contract and getting his shots in at Shojo... nice!

[Kish]

We have never seen Durkon say more than two words to Belkar, so no evidence either way for that one,
Don't forget that Durkon specifically and deliberately left Belkar out when telling Hilgya the rest of the Order were good traveling companions.

[Wrecan]

Subjective interpretation, like all your points, really.

Hey, what's the deal? Why are you turning this into an argument? You asked for evidence that people in the group didn't like Belkar. I gave it to you. I didn't say it was 100% undeniably conclusive. What is?

[fithi]

Yay, the Belkar is back!

Looking forward to how the whole thing is going to play out.

[Freeman333]

All right then. Looks like Roy is, as the kids say these days, getting down to bid'ness. I like seeing contracts torn up in general--call me crazy--but I had to grin and say, "Nice," when I saw Roy toss out the contractural obligations. Do it for the right reasons or don't do it at all, Mr. Greenhilt. Make it count. :)

Glad to see, also, that I'm not the only one excited about Roy "milking" Shojo for "resources". I'm a big magic item fan in-game; I love magic boots, magic rings, magic helmets, magic weapons, magic armor...hell, I love it all. I want to see this party pimped out like Snoop Dogg's ride. Bring in the heavy artillery! Pearls of Power! Boots of Speed! Horns of Blasting! Swords of...uh...Cutting! And so forth. Let's show Xykon what happens when he manages to piss off the entire freakin' world.

Hope you enjoy regenerating, lich-boy.

[Evik]

Hooray for get out of jail free cards!
Muah hahahahahahahaaaaaaa!
anxiously awaiting Miko's reaction to THAT!
oh this is gonna be good....

Plus Kudos to Roy... a volunteer party has a higher moral than drafted one. Nice to see a group that WANTS to stay together, even if in Belkar's case it's for free healing and the occaisional use of the party as body shields lol.
I wonder if using Elan as a body shield would count as 1/4 concealment or half concealment since hes a halfling lol.

[AnimeHeretic]

I don't agree. Freeing Belkar for the GREATER good (killing Xykon) can easily be seen as the act of a Chaotic Good or even a Neutral Good character.

No, I have to say (and I believe the Book of Exalted Deeds states), it is NEVER ok for a Good character to do an evil act for a good end. I wouldn't allow it in my game without repercussions.

For the sake of the comic, I understand why it was done, but from a game POV it was an evil act, and one needs to wonder why a "good" character would rescue an evil character who needed to face justice for his crimes, instead of seeking a "good" ally to join them.

[theKOT]

Hey, what's the deal? Why are you turning this into an argument? You asked for evidence that people in the group didn't like Belkar. I gave it to you. I didn't say it was 100% undeniably conclusive. What is?
I don't think he was trying to be mean. He was simply saying all your points were interpretations of events which others might view differently.

On a different note, Durkon also looks "shocked" to see the contracts torn up, but he isn't upset.

[AnimeHeretic]

I have no problem with Roy maintaining LG. He freed Belkar out of friendship, in a not-evil fashion (possibly even lawful - the negotiation), which is a good deed. You should stick out for your friends. This is an altruistic act with respect to Belkar. It doesn't matter if Belkar himself is evil or not, Roy respects their (perhaps only unidirectional) friendship and loyalty. I don't see why Roy should be obliged to think on the greater good in every action (wieghing in possible, but not certain, innocent deaths by Belkar's hand in the future; Roy will certainly make efforts to prevent this, as he has done before). He does this for some acts (going after Xykon) and acts good on the microscale (altruistic to friends, e.g. saving Belkar, eventually going after Elan) for some. True, he has had moral dilemmas, but this is to be expected within a campaign, and I wouldn't say that Roy's imaginary player has taken these things lightly.
LG requires thinking of the greater good, and considering the consequences. "Being true to your mates" is not LG if the means done to carry it out are immoral. Actually he has put his personal preferences above the greater good (which is a downward mark for Roy alignment wise)

<snipped the part about the contracts, since I don't see an issue with him freeing the others alignment wise>



On the other hand, I have no problem with Miko's interpretation of LG alignment either. It is a different interpretation from Roy's, but both hold water. Sure, she's been tested to the limit (by Belkar), and although this was a rather extraordinary setup (from my experience of playing, anyway) it still constituted a great story element, both for Belkar and for Miko (if she were a PC).

I don't like how the paladins are portrayed in OOTS. The "intolerant bigot" stereotype strikes me as LN at best. Paladins respect the lawful authority, this is true, but the Good part requires them to be compassionate to others, being just and fair. Unfortunately so many people in the games I've seen (and RA Salvatore novels :-/ ) equate Paladin or Religious as "Hypocrite" while the "Do what you will with good intent" heroes as "the real good people."

Paladin LG isn't "I'm good and if you oppose me, you're evil" rigidity. In fact the 1E paladin I grew up with would never be like that, except by players that couldn't really handle being a Paladin. That sounds more like the 1E Cavalier (which 1E Unearthed Arcana seemed to force the Paladin to behave like).

I really recomend the Book of Exalted Deeds to show how a Good character should react to things.

[skaven13]

He already did, once. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=153)


But, he did come around by 162, and declared that he was going to rescuse the party. He's not perfect, but eventually he comes around.

[Lloyd]

Acutally, I may punch you in the face anyway, just for the novelty of being able to reach...

Brilliant, Giant! I fell out of my chair laughing at that one!

[skaven13]

Anyway, Another sign that it wasn't Miko? Roy didn't have a katana through his chest after ripping up those contracts. "Those were articles of pure Law!!!"

Nevermind the fact that Miko would have hauled him in for littering. ;)

[Zaruthustran]

I don't like how the paladins are portrayed in OOTS. The "intolerant bigot" stereotype strikes me as LN at best.

Whan you say "paladins", do you mean Miko? Because she's the only paladin we've spent significant time with. The other paladins have had just a few lines of dialogue--not enough to really draw any blanket conclusions on how the entire class is portrayed by OOTS.

Miko is fanatically opposed to evil and a bitch, but she still strikes me as Good. Note that Good does not = "nice" or "pleasant" or even "polite".

And I just don't see where you get "bigot" from, unless you mean she's prejudiced against Evil.

What I'm saying is that LG still allows for a huge range of personality, dialogue, and behavior. Including hatred, arrogance, and close-mindedness.

-z

[Gleanerizer]

I don't like how the paladins are portrayed in OOTS.
I'm not going to argue your other points--I'm firmly in the "The story/game is what it is, and I'm going to let the Giant tell it/DM it the way he wants" camp. But it seems that you are completely ignoring Hinjo the character (who appears written in specifically to address paladin stereotyping). Even if we don't examine him directly (some have mentioned they don't like him for fraternizing with the prisoners), Hinjo's and Shojo's conversations with Roy strongly imply that Miko is rather unpleasant to be around and--possibly, can't be too certain--is only put up with because she is exceptionally powerful (she appears to have a few ranks in Railroading). Even the Giant has said personally--can't remember where he said it, but he did--that he doesn't really have a bone to pick with paladins, and any stereotyping you may be reading into the comic isn't intentional. YMMV...

[Alfryd]

Belkar was freed without trial to accompany Roy and the Order because...it's in the script.
Naturally.

...I don't think Miko will be wiping out the Order any time soon. If she ever comes to fight them again, I think the dice will not be loaded in her favor, because the railroading has been taken care of.
The comic is one non-stop example of railroading. It's just subtler on some occasions than others. Of course she won't wipe out the Order, the laws of comedic physics demand it, but she might well severely inconvenience them. Her final monologue just screams 'self-fulfilling prophecy.'

But of course it is a laughing matter. Having tremendous fun as we speak, just thinking about it.
If you don't want Miko appearing in the strip as an antagonist again, you don't want this scenario. I'll spoiler it elsewhere.



We have never seen Durkon say more than two words to Belkar, so no evidence either way for that one, although Durkon doesn't seem particularly happy to see belkar. We have no evidence about Haley either way.
Durkon does mention to Hilgya:
"They're a fine group, for humans. And an elf."
"And a halfling."
"No, I left him out on purpose."

Haley, Elan, and Durkon all fall silent when Roy suggests getting V and Belkar up the royal suite, but agree enthusiastically to just V's invitation. Surprisingly, Roy seems most loyal to him.

At the same time, there is more than one example of a friendly camaraderie between Elan and Belkar, especially when they team up to pull pranks on Roy. To me that's a prime example of them being good buddies.
There are probably mixed feelings, but then Elan is Chaotic.

I see nothing here that would suggest that V doesn't like him...
Or alternatively, everything there does.

Not hoping, she just says that she expected Belkar to be unreasonable and that they would have to kill him.
It would still suggest he values Belkar's life less than the benefits of the XP. This may have changed, however.



No, because Miko should realize that she isn't omniscient and act accordingly.
You mean making thorough investigations beforehand? Next.

Miko obviously takes everyone else's word at face value, even to the point of releasing two bandits, but pretty much assumes that the OOTSers are lying.
Because what they say very often flatly contradicts available evidence, probable happenstance, or subsequent conduct. She had no independant info on Sam & Pa.

When meeting OOTS for the first time, Miko could either have gathered more information before attacking, or not. She chose not to.
What exactly is your standard of 'reasonable doubt' here? What was the competing hypothesis- a band of Evil Twins, a magical, alignment-masking artifact and 'accidentally' demolishing an entire castle that just happens to a pillar of the foundations of reality? Yeah, that's likely. Bear in mind that the longer the group went unchallenged, the more likely it was they would commit additional crimes.

She agreed to [bring them back alive] "if it is possible."
And it apparently wasn't, as they had no interest in surrendering.

IF they actually had been really "guilty" (of destroying the gate on purpose in order to weaken the fabric of the universe), they would probably have been evil. All of them.
In the same sense that if they were on a quest to destroy an Evil Lich, they would be Good? All of them?
Secondly, she applied the death penalty for ancillary crimes commited by the linear guild, not weakening the fabric of reality.

Also keep in mind that you don't have to be Belkar-evil in order to register as evil--a rogue that typically tries to get "a little more" than his fair share of the treasure should be enough.
Then Haley would *certainly* register.



...forgiving him for crimes committed while escaping is the absolute minimum they could do.
Two wrongs do not, by themselves, make a right.

Oh yes. And it was good and proper of Shojo to drag the OOTSers to Azure City in chains, almost getting them killed in the process.
Not at all. How is this relevant?

...it is NEVER ok for a Good character to do an evil act for a good end.
Evil is never 'ok.' But the alternative may be even less 'ok.' This is why killing evil monsters can be taken, on balance, as a 'good' thing, despite the fact that to kill, in principle, is always evil.

LG requires thinking of the greater good, and considering the consequences.
If you allow the interest of the greater good to override all other considerations, then you're effectively a form of CG, perfectly dedicated to the belief that the end justifies the means. I support Roy's initial protection of Belkar from Miko, but this goes too far.

EDIT: for malformed quotation.

[Lady_Orc]

While it is rather blissful to have Miko out of sight for now, I wouldn't mind seeing her again so much as long as she is frustrated to the point of insanity. ;D

[spectralphoenix]

Please do not use the BoED to discuss alignment. This is the same book that says poison is always and invariably evil because it causes suffering, then introduces ravages which are just like poisons except they cause more suffering, only affect evil people, and are ok for the good guys to use.

How does that square with the "ends don't justify the means" bit?

That said, great comic! GO ROY!!!

[Lady_Orc]

I don't like how the paladins are portrayed in OOTS. The "intolerant bigot" stereotype strikes me as LN at best. Paladins respect the lawful authority, this is true, but the Good part requires them to be compassionate to others, being just and fair. Unfortunately so many people in the games I've seen (and RA Salvatore novels :-/ ) equate Paladin or Religious as "Hypocrite" while the "Do what you will with good intent" heroes as "the real good people."

Paladin LG isn't "I'm good and if you oppose me, you're evil" rigidity. In fact the 1E paladin I grew up with would never be like that, except by players that couldn't really handle being a Paladin. That sounds more like the 1E Cavalier (which 1E Unearthed Arcana seemed to force the Paladin to behave like).

I really recomend the Book of Exalted Deeds to show how a Good character should react to things.

Actually, the impression I get is that Miko is meant to illustrate a particular kind of paladin, that I and many with me hate, even though we may like others just fine. Remember how Hinjo said that not all paladins are like her.

[Krytha]

I think Roy's decision to spring Belkar will come back to haunt him. Of course he is very much in the process of learning to be a leader so maybe this little mistake is just part of his education.



Will come back to hang him or haunt him? Either way, its a bad idea but Roy seems to be a glutton for punishment.

[Purplet]

No, I have to say (and I believe the Book of Exalted Deeds states), it is NEVER ok for a Good character to do an evil act for a good end. I wouldn't allow it in my game without repercussions.

Good man (albeit slightly mad), convinced that everyone in a small village is a demon. He has the mean to cause a big snowfall and wipe the village in a shot. You are a mage with no real chance of immobilizing him. Do you let the village die because, hey! I'm good and so I cannot kill another good unless directly provoked ?

On your point of view there is no good action at all. Whenever you donate food to a starving man you are damaging the business of grocers. A good action is always a compromise for greater good.

Besides, manuals are full of contradictions: as an example just read the Consecrate and Desecrate spells and think about them when applied to evil gods.. :S

[DeathQuaker]

You know, I gotta ask. Who said Belkar got off scot free? Or is someone here a future psychic? We have no idea... YET... what Roy agreed to with both Shojo AND Belkar.

And Roy himself has said that 1) He intended to free Belkar from the start because he felt they were unjustly imprisoned, and 2) That he himself doesn't trust anyone else to look after Belkar other than himself.

This may of course be his downfall... but given what Roy's stated in the past, I don't think Belkar has a free ticket to cause mayhem as he wishes. Belkar will certainly TRY of course... but that's what causes the dramatic tension.

Good, good story. Can't wait to see what will happen next.

[geez3r]

I read the comic just now, being away from the computer for a few days. "Actually, I may just punch you in the face anyway, just for the novelty of being able to reach..." Classic Giant, Classic.

[saraswati]

First off, loved this comic because it is an OOTS classic blend of rich character moments, funny one-liners, and D & D in-jokes.

That being said, I notice that people on the boards who love this comic still have two main complaints that show up over and over again.

1) "The whole thing came full circle and the characters are right back to where they were at the beginning" (or, not enough character development)

2) "OOTS character did x action. That action doesn't fit the official description of that character's alignment/class".

IMHO I will say gently that I think these complaints totally miss the point of what makes OOTS so great in the first place.

in creating OOTS Rich basically decided to blend actually storytelling (not just DM'ing, but creating a purely narrative arc), with the D & D gaming experience. I love D & D, but its basic premise is "participate in a group storytelling experience while following technical game rules." The two halves of that premise are very often in total conflict with one another.

Many times the rules get in the way of telling a coherent story. Maybe you want to create a world that doesn't fit in well with the official concept of "alignment" or "Class" or "NPC". Or the story gets in the way of purely following the rules. Maybe you really needed that NPC to survive for the storyline, but the dice rolls are against you.

Those conflicts create often wierd, odd, incongrous situations. And OOTS brilliantly picks out those conflicts and wierd situations and points them out by making jokes about them.

IMHO complaint # 1 above is a complaint about the rules interferring with the storytelling. And complaint #2 is a complaint about the storytelling interferring with the rules.

YMMV, but in my personal opinion I don't think that people have a basis to complain about either situation in OOTS. I actually think the Giant is doing a great job balancing rules and storytelling. And that balancing act is why OOTS is so good.

Another major consideration for me in making judgments about OOTS is that I think that D & D itself is broken in a lot of ways. The alignment system, the idea of giving players free will but needing them to follow a certain path, etc. IMHO these things don't really work well. So, Rich is already creating a story in a system that has problems. When you criticize an OOTS step back for a second and ask if that inconsistancy is a Giant creation, or something wrong with the D & D world.

That being said, I don't have any problem with nitpicking or analyzing, (why else am I posting my own stuff, LOL). I'm just saying to put critique in perspective. If Rich didn't balance storytelling and rules it wouldn't truly reflect D & D, and we wouldn't find it nearly so funny or true.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Belkar vs. Miko smackdown :)

[Rainee_Sue]

Hi, saraswati? Don't believe we've met. But you're my new best friend. Just so you know. That is precisely what I've been thinking and unable to put into words. Thanks for saying it. :)

[Mercutio01]

Some pretty narrow views on what is and isnt' good on this board. If I were to adhere to some of those, NO character ever played in my history of 25 years of gaming would have ever been good. If you use the BoED exclusively to determine what character is good, then you will invariably have a neutral character, at best. I'd hate to play D&D with a whole bunch of posters here.

I think this is a great comic BTW. I particularly like the look on Durkon's face.

[AnimeHeretic]

No, I have to say (and I believe the Book of Exalted Deeds states), it is NEVER ok for a Good character to do an evil act for a good end. I wouldn't allow it in my game without repercussions.

Good man (albeit slightly mad), convinced that everyone in a small village is a demon. He has the mean to cause a big snowfall and wipe the village in a shot. You are a mage with no real chance of immobilizing him. Do you let the village die because, hey! I'm good and so I cannot kill another good unless directly provoked ?

On your point of view there is no good action at all. Whenever you donate food to a starving man you are damaging the business of grocers. A good action is always a compromise for greater good.

Besides, manuals are full of contradictions: as an example just read the Consecrate and Desecrate spells and think about them when applied to evil gods.. :S
That does not follow. You cannot do an intentionally evil ac with the intent of good. Killing the madman in this case would be defending innocents, giving food to the starving is a free gift of one's own belongings, not depriving of someone else. An evil action would be killing an innocent person to prevent a war. It takes an "Ends Justify the Means" approach, reducing people to pawns that can be sacrificed.

<Side note for those pointiing out the inconsistancies like "Ravages." I don't allow them in my campaign because they are illogical when the book's explanation of morality is considered and I think the only reason it was created was for the "counterpart of Book of Vile Darkness. No I don't agree with everything in BoED, but I think it's discussion of what good is should be in future versions of the Players Handbook>

edit: But before someone calls for my head, overall I like the comic. I understand Giant needed a reason to get the group back together. My main beef is Roy is becoming rather sanctimonious. He condemns others but isn't any better. These speeches of his are something I hope we'll be done with soon and then back to the main dungeon crawl and jokes about the game which is where I thought the comic was at its best.

[Zen_Monkey]

I don't know who is going to see this, but I wanted to say that I've had an exhausting day and was about to give up and go to sleep for the rest of the weekend before I read today's strip. I feel so much better now, having gotten a good laugh for once today. I just started reading OoTS a couple weeks ago and I'm glad I did.

[Melnor]

Great comic, Giant!
And suspence and surprises too!
And don't worry about taking a day off, we'll love you anyway.

[Kish]

Please do not use the BoED to discuss alignment. This is the same book that says poison is always and invariably evil because it causes suffering, then introduces ravages which are just like poisons except they cause more suffering, only affect evil people, and are ok for the good guys to use.
Then there's the sex=evil stuff. Yes, I second the motion to have the Book of Exalted Deeds removed from the courtroom.

(What do you mean, we're not in court? You haven't read nearly enough of these threads.)

[Kedrot]

Yay! I was worried Belkar would have to face the Spoooooooooooky lawyers. Great strip yay belkar! How scary is it that my friends fit the templates of most of the Order... creepy eh? Kudos Giant

[Deuce]

Belkar may not be "getting off free" at all. As far as we know, going on this next mission may well be a "Fate Worse then Death". That Snarl is a soul-killing machine. Consider it a little like a "Trial by Combat" only longer.

(edit) Yes, my " key was feeling under used. :P

[AnimeHeretic]

Then there's the sex=evil stuff. Yes, I second the motion to have the Book of Exalted Deeds removed from the courtroom.

(What do you mean, we're not in court? You haven't read nearly enough of these threads.)

I believe BoED says exactly the opposite:


from page 10: There is nothing inherently evil about human (or humanoid sexuality), and being a good character doesn't necessarily mean remaining a virgin. Certain religions and cultures in the D&D universe encourage or at least condone some people taking vows of chastity, but these are similar to vows of poverty or abstinence-- rooted in the belief that giving up the enjoyment of a good and natural thing can have positive benefits, not derived from an attitude that sex is evil....

A good character is not opposed to sex, in principle, but will not condone exploitative or coercive relationships such as prostitution, the use of slaves for sex, or the sexual contact with children or others without the power to enter freely and willingly into a relationship of mutual respect

How did you get "Sex=evil" out of that?

[metawidget]

I liked the RIP Rip rip rip rip part too!

n-thed on the successively smaller ripping sounds.

It was a jolt of colour to to see some purple in with the azure in the background.

If we're lucky, we'll catch up with Thog and his ice cream suppliers soon...

[theKOT]

To all of you saying:
"We don't know if Belkar got off scott-free."

I present....

And as luck would have it, one of those cards read, "Get Out of Jail Free".

Their is another point here. To those of you who say that Roy got Belkar out of jail for the greater good, consider this:
Roy was willing to rip up his contracts, lessening the chance that he would have a full party, just for the sake of doing what is right. Why isn't he willing to let Belkar stand accountable for his actions? Surely, ripping up those contracts constituted risking the greater good as much if not more than letting Belkar go through a trial. Roy is acting very inconsistent right now.

[Jonathan327]

That's not inconsistancy--it's loyalty to the group.

[eof]

You mean making thorough investigations beforehand? Next.
If hearsay, orders from a (supposedly) senile leader and accusations that may or may not be about the OOTSers is "thorough investigations" to you, good for you. (Keep in mind that at the time Miko seemingly had not personally been talking to any seers; all info she had originated from Shojo.)

And let's face it, Miko operated on Lord Shojo's orders, and that was enough for her. Anything else was superfluous. If that isn't near enough to "I already know everything there is to know" to not make any practical difference, I don't know what is.


Because what they say very often flatly contradicts available evidence, probable happenstance, or subsequent conduct. She had no independant info on Sam & Pa.
Most of her "evidence" is what other people SAY. Obviously, taking THEIR word for truth and someone else's word for lies is a GREAT way to discern the truth, don't you think? (Also, if THAT is your justification, MAYBE she should have wisened up to the possibility after the Sam & Pa incident, if not before.)


What exactly is your standard of 'reasonable doubt' here? What was the competing hypothesis- a band of Evil Twins, a magical, alignment-masking artifact and 'accidentally' demolishing an entire castle that just happens to a pillar of the foundations of reality? Yeah, that's likely.
Oh, I don't know, first-hand watching them kick some puppies, perhaps, rather than just relying on second-hand and possibly flawed "knowledge?" (As the case turned out to be?)

And yes, even the Detect Evil was flawed knowledge, since it turned out to be, you know, WRONG. (You can extrapolate from there that since the paladins' powers are granted by the gods, the gods grant failable powers, and thus the gods are failable. And if even gods are failable (like being responsible for the Snarl in the first place isn't proof enough), then MAYBE--just MAYBE--Miko's other "knowledge" isn't as absolutely definately correct as she thought, either.) I personally think that Detect Evil is a great cop-out, and a crutch for those who can't be bothered to think and/or examine for themselves (and for that reason, much prefer the interpretion presented in Heroes of Horror).


Bear in mind that the longer the group went unchallenged, the more likely it was they would commit additional crimes.
None of which would have been successfully committed if Miko had followed and observed instead, acting only when she observed a direct display of their wickedness. This would have accomplished two things: A, if the party wasn't evil after all, hm, well, "they don't seem to do much evil at least, maybe I shouldn't initiate contact by trying to kill all of them", and B, if the party WAS evil, Miko could have caught them when they had their concentration directed elsewhere, much improving her chances of taking them down in the first place.

And honestly Alfryd, I don't really know what you want me to say, here. "Good going, Miko, you really swallowed Lord Shojo's lies line, hook and sinker. Then you heard some valid complains about SOMEONE, assumed it was the OOTSers, and guess what? You were wrong! You then almost killed several INNOCENT people repeatedly (and also almost killed a psychotic midget in a haze of blinding hate and anger, which I can't really blame you for, although it might not have been the wisest of career moves on your part, but you didn't after all, so maybe that's ok). Last time I saw you, you expressed a desire to spill the blood of said INNOCENT people. Great going, next level can't be far off now?"


And it apparently wasn't, as they had no interest in surrendering.
Funny. If I got an ultimatum to "surrender and die, or resist and die," I might not exactly be inclined to surrender, either. So please explain how making said ultimatum constitutes "bringing the OOTSers back alive if at all possible."


In the same sense that if they were on a quest to destroy an Evil Lich, they would be Good? All of them?
To quote you, how is this relevant? If you can come up with an explanation how a group of persons that intentionally weaken the fabric of the universe (and by extension, try to bring about the end of the world) are non-evil, do so. Your argument that "oh, a non-good character can be out to destroy an evil lich, so obviously a non-evil character can be out to end existence" is... absurd. Do you really need to have that pointed out for you? (My gut-feeling is that it is entirely possible to come up with such an explanation. What you did come up with, however, doesn't qualify.)


Secondly, she applied the death penalty for ancillary crimes commited by the linear guild, not weakening the fabric of reality.
Yeah, and we all know how guilty the OOTSers were of those. It seems to me that you feel Miko was in the right to turn those accusations, which had not been proven to actually relate to the OOTSers (and, as a matter of fact, didn't), into a death sentence for the OOTSers. From accusation and circumstancial "evidence" to death sentence is quite a leap. Needless to say, I don't share your sentiments on this matter.


Then Haley would *certainly* register.
Quite possibly; those have not been Haley's greatest moments. But then again, her motivations have not exactly been "more gold for me and less for you suckers" either, now have they?


Not at all. How is this relevant?
Not very much at all. I merely find it interesting that among all the people that chew out Roy for lecturing his father for almost getting the OOTSers killed, or for getting his trusted companion out of jail, and a while back Belkar for being partially responsible for getting the hotel going up in flames, few seem inclined to bring up that if Shojo had approached the OOTSers in a sensible manner in the first place, NONE of the current issues would exist.

[theKOT]

That's not inconsistancy--it's loyalty to the group.
My point was that Roy risked the greater good by tearing up the contracts, but some people said that he sprung Belkar for the greater good.


Roy's recent actions have been about loyalty to his group above all else, and he is even wiling to do evil acts for the sake of loyalty.


Oh, I don't know, first-hand watching them kick some puppies, perhaps, rather than just relying on second-hand and possibly flawed "knowledge?" (As the case turned out to be?)
That would risk the puppies... gathering first hand evidence leaves the evil people time to hurt more innocents.

She could only have stopped them from doing something evil that took a bit of time. If one of them had suddenly slit a throat she wouldn't have been able to react. And in that situation(following them) she still might have arrested them because they were going to town aka "Belkar is unsupervised" land, and she might have seen him doing something terribly wrong, without a chance to stop it.

Lastly, Miko is now almost insane(per the Giant). So you really can't say that what she did recently is like what she did before.


That's an opinion. I would argue that she's getting worse, which is—in fact—development. Before, she was merely abrasive and rude, and maybe a little too devoted to duty. Now, she's bordering on a complete psychotic break.

It's just not development in the direction you were hoping for.





In #120, she's under the impression that some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something is responsible, so the speech there is mostly grandstanding. Once she sees Durkon explains they are not evil, the bloodlust backs away. She doesn't like them, but she doesn't consider killing them and brings them back to trial. Belkar and the rest have now brought it back, and pushed it to the point of her wanting to kill Good and Neutral characters. She's been pushed beyond what had been a line she didn't cross.

For the record, by the way, Miko's final speech is not swearing revenge; it's more like promising that karma will come back and punish them, and hoping she gets to be there. As in, "I hope you all get found guilty of something and I get to be the one to execute you," not, "I'm going to kill you no matter what happens."

He was talking to me, because I thought, at this point, that Miko had always been evil.

[Brasswatchman]

Hmm. Bet you that a lot of our concerns are dealt with soon - as well as why Roy decided to let Belkar off the hook. I think there's more than just loyalty going on here; bet you that Roy feels responsible for putting Belkar in the situation where he murdered the guard, what with this all being the result of Shojo and Eugene's scheme. Otherwise, I bet there's something else going on here.

[AnimeHeretic]

My point was that Roy risked the greater good by tearing up the contracts, but some people said that he sprung Belkar for the greater good.

Roy's recent actions have been about loyalty to his group above all else, and he is even wiling to do evil acts for the sake of loyalty.
Well, in this case, I think keeping the contracts would have been Lawful Evil. Within his rights, but an abuse of the original intent to serve his needs <I never had an issue with the contracts>

I think Belkar's release is a LE act though. As Roy put it, he found he held all the cards, and one of them was a Get out of Free. So he pressured Shojo to release a murderer abusing the Law to serve his needs (didn't he just throw a tantrum about that being done by his father?).

I've seen a lot of people post about Roy being loyal to his friends and calling it good. Blind loyalty is never good. Shielding a friend from facing the consequences is certainly not a Good act

[mastroyo]

Hoping for a new comic tonight.

There are some posters here that sould get a 'Master in OoTScology' or something. I mean, i've read the comics more than once, but these guys make a cience out of knowing stuff.
Wish I had the time/motivation.
:D

[theKOT]

Well, in this case, I think keeping the contracts would have been Lawful Evil. Within his rights, but an abuse of the original intent to serve his needs <I never had an issue with the contracts>
Except the contracts would, this time, assist in saving the world, not just offing some lich. I think keeping the contracts would have been LN, and what Roy did was CG, or possibly NG. My real point, however was that Roy was not freeing Belkar for the greater good, because if he cared that much about making sure his team was intact, he wouldn't have ripped up those contracts.

Hoping for a new comic tonight.

There are some posters here that sould get a 'Master in OoTScology' or something. I mean, i've read the comics more than once, but these guys make a cience out of knowing stuff.
Wish I had the time/motivation.

Its easy! I got my degree in two weeks at Crazy Go Nuts University, and now look where I am today!

[AnimeHeretic]

Except the contracts would, this time, assist in saving the world, not just offing some lich. I think keeping the contracts would have been LN, and what Roy did was CG, or possibly NG. My real point, however was that Roy was not freeing Belkar for the greater good, because if he cared that much about making sure his team was intact, he wouldn't have ripped up those contracts.
Its easy! I got my degree in two weeks at Crazy Go Nuts University, and now look where I am today!
Sure, I agree with your main point there. It wasn't a greater good to free Belkar, but for his personal interest.

[BURNhollywoodBURN]

Always better late than never for OoTSie goodness. Nice surprise with Belkar. Woot!

JIM
aka kyrin

OoTSie goodness?

[Serina_Spellbinder]

WARNING: The following post contains harsh language and may contain certain content, opinions, and/or sexual humor that might be interpreted by those without a sense of humor, to be objectionable. This is recommended for mature readers....meaning folks who can take a joke.

[FOAMY THE SQUIRREL]
What is the deal with people actually caring what alignment the characters in the OOTS cartoon have?

ITS...JUST...A...CARTOON. It doesn't matter. You pathetic morons. If your enjoyment of the strip is ruined because of this, you really need to find something else to do with your time.

Like shoot yourself, for instance.

You know what else f***ing pisses me off? These losers who whine about Belkar being in the party. Belkar shouldn't be in the party because he's so eeeeevvviillll. Well guess what. The Giant created him, he wants Belkar in the OOTS, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it! Besides, he's one of the funniest characters in the series, why the hell would you want to get rid of him?

I am sick of this f***ing bull***.

[/FOAMY THE SQUIRREL]

[AnimeHeretic]

and they say we take the strip too seriously...


I find it fun to debate the actions of the strp personally. If all I cared about was the strip, I never would have come here

[DeathQuaker]

To all of you saying:
"We don't know if Belkar got off scott-free."

I present....



Ya mean all of me? Maybe someone else said that too, but that was almost exactly what I said. So if yer talkin' to me, say so. :)

Yes, I did read the strip. Sorry I didn't make my point clear enough (wow, somehow I didn't expect anyone to nitpick what I said and take it out of context. Silly me. Though frankly, KOT, I really didn't expect it from you. You argue better than that, usually). What I meant was, while yes, Roy got Shojo to release Belkar...

..I don't think, necessarily, this means that Roy's just going to let Belkar run hog wild all over the place. I say this because I got the sense that some folks thought he just might, or that some folks think that perhaps no one's going to say to Belkar, "Belkar, you did a bad thing; don't do that again or you won't get off next time"--because, you know, it's entirely plausible that someone--like Roy--might have said that "off-screen" or will say it in the future.

Now, as an aside, I COULD have gotten that sense mistakenly. I could be wrong. It does happen from time to time. :)

But all I'm sayin' is, we really don't know. We don't know ALL the details of what happened with Belkar and Roy, or what will happen. For all I know, next strip (this is hypothetical; I'm not predicting anything) could have everyone say, "Welcome back Belkar! Now pull any stunt like that again and we'll reap the XP off your cold dead flesh ourselves." It's possible.

'Course it's also possible that they'll all reveal that they're all really Demons and that now they know of the Snarl, they'll go free it themselves. I don't THINK it's going to happen, but it's possible.

The point is, we just don't know. It ain't written in stone yet--or even, as a matter of fact, Adobe Illustrator.

And what I enjoy, in fact, is the not knowing. Will Roy keep Belkar in check or will Belkar get away with naughty things? It's good tension. I like it.

And that's all I was sayin': We don't know anything for certain, and yay for that. :)

Now back to your regularly scheduled arguing.

[Electric_Monkey]

Now what exactly do you think Roy meant by "holding all the cards". Shojo would have lost quite a bit of moral authority for his role in decieving Roy, but I'm not sure if it's enough for Roy to convince him to let Belkar go. Did Roy hold the world to Ransom for Belkar's sake?

[theKOT]

Ya mean all of me? Maybe someone else said that too, but that was almost exactly what I said. So if yer talkin' to me, say so. :)

Yes, I did read the strip. Sorry I didn't make my point clear enough (wow, somehow I didn't expect anyone to nitpick what I said and take it out of context. Silly me. Though frankly, KOT, I really didn't expect it from you. You argue better than that, usually). What I meant was, while yes, Roy got Shojo to release Belkar...

..I don't think, necessarily, this means that Roy's just going to let Belkar run hog wild all over the place. I say this because I got the sense that some folks thought he just might, or that some folks think that perhaps no one's going to say to Belkar, "Belkar, you did a bad thing; don't do that again or you won't get off next time"--because, you know, it's entirely plausible that someone--like Roy--might have said that "off-screen" or will say it in the future.

Now, as an aside, I COULD have gotten that sense mistakenly. I could be wrong. It does happen from time to time. :)

But all I'm sayin' is, we really don't know. We don't know ALL the details of what happened with Belkar and Roy, or what will happen. For all I know, next strip (this is hypothetical; I'm not predicting anything) could have everyone say, "Welcome back Belkar! Now pull any stunt like that again and we'll reap the XP off your cold dead flesh ourselves." It's possible.

'Course it's also possible that they'll all reveal that they're all really Demons and that now they know of the Snarl, they'll go free it themselves. I don't THINK it's going to happen, but it's possible.

The point is, we just don't know. It ain't written in stone yet--or even, as a matter of fact, Adobe Illustrator.

And what I enjoy, in fact, is the not knowing. Will Roy keep Belkar in check or will Belkar get away with naughty things? It's good tension. I like it.


I thought you meant that Shojo had punished him.

Anyway, I would accept the rest of your argument, but Origins and the Elan episode have shown us that when Belkar does something out of line, Roy doesn't try to rebuke him, he simply uses force to coerce him into following his moral code. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=125) With this in mind, Roy is probably gonna let Belkar off scotch free too. See, the OOTS doesn't constantly supervise Belkar and they always use threats to try to make him do what they want, despite the fact that when they aren't around that leaves him free to hurt others as he pleases.

And BTW, I was directing that post at people theorizing that Shojo mighta punished him. Although I was also pretty darn sure that Roy couldn't give a darn. Cause of his track record.

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Woah, i just realized something..... Belkar heard Elan whisper
that means.... HE SUCCEEDED ON A LISTEN CHECK!!!!!

[theKOT]

Now what exactly do you think Roy meant by "holding all the cards". Shojo would have lost quite a bit of moral authority for his role in decieving Roy, but I'm not sure if it's enough for Roy to convince him to let Belkar go. Did Roy hold the world to Ransom for Belkar's sake?
Nah, Roy would have done it anyway, but Shojo doesn't know that. Roy just strong armed Shojo into releasing his buddy who was going to go on trial. Because he values Belkar more than NPC guard no. 221, who had no family and has doubtless been raised since. So killing people is just fine as long as they have rich and powerful friends or associates.

In a more literal sense, all negotiations in OOTS are done by playing "war", and it became clear to Roy that he had won.

[Serina_Spellbinder]

Now what exactly do you think Roy meant by "holding all the cards". Shojo would have lost quite a bit of moral authority for his role in decieving Roy, but I'm not sure if it's enough for Roy to convince him to let Belkar go. Did Roy hold the world to Ransom for Belkar's sake?

[MICHAEL PALIN]

Hello, Good Evening, and welcome to Blackmail! And to start tonight's program we go south to Azure City and Mr. Shojo. Hello, Mr. Shojo. Now this is to stop Roy Greenhilt revealing your true nature to the Sapphire Guard. So Mr. Shojo, agree to Roy's demands, and your second in command, Miko Miyazaki, your nephew Hinjo, and the other Paladins in the Sapphire Guard need never know your true nature.

(nude organist plays some stirring chords)

[/MICHAEL PALIN]

[Grunjon]

Nah, Roy would have done it anyway, but Shojo doesn't know that. Roy just strong armed Shojo into releasing his buddy who was going to go on trial....

Perhaps Shojo allowed himself to be easily "blackmailed" because he knew the OotS needed to be at its best strength in order to complete the upcoming quest(s).

To remind you all of what Shojo admitted: he's not a Paladin, he's a Politician. He's making sure his own little neck of the woods doesn't get destroyed by the Snarl. To do that, he has to "save the world". He's just as happy to let Roy & co. do it, to keep him and his own safe, and if that means giving up Belkar in order to let the OotS have another member to add to their strength, then that serves Shojo's goals well enough. From Shojo's point of view, what does he gain from Belkar's trial and punishment? On the other hand, what does he gain (keep) from the Snarl's defeat?

Hey, for all we know, Shojo OFFERED Belkar's release to Roy, and Roy's just shamming about what actually happened, trying to impress everyone in the group. :)

[theKOT]

Granted, but as I've said before, the OOTS wouldn't have had too much trouble finding a replacement. Azure city is huge, and probably has many a Good adventurer who would aid them in their quest. without the threat of stabbing them in their sleep. I mean, Belkar isn't a very good team player, and even someone a level lower than him who was selfless would be more effective in combat.

[TinSoldier]

[MICHAEL PALIN]

Hello, Good Evening, and welcome to Blackmail! And to start tonight's program we go south to Azure City and Mr. Shojo. Hello, Mr. Shojo. Now this is to stop Roy Greenhilt revealing your true nature to the Sapphire Guard. So Mr. Shojo, agree to Roy's demands, and your second in command, Miko Miyazaki, your nephew Hinjo, and the other Paladins in the Sapphire Guard need never know your true nature.

(nude organist plays some stirring chords)

[/MICHAEL PALIN]
That's funny! I was gonna blast you on your post about us endlessly discussing alignment issues, but I'll give you a pass, this time.

Not that I don't get tired of it sometimes, but mostly I find it interesting.